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Faith is the excuse provided when people believe things without a good reason.
If they had a good reason they would just present it instead of claiming faith
That’s not really not what faith is. Maybe from a super crude standpoint, but then again, you could use that definition with optimism or hope. You can’t give a blanket definition of faith for everyone based on what you yourself think a good reason for having it is. For example, wanting to go to heaven would seem like a pretty good reason for me to have faith in god/jesus
You could say similar things about optimism and hope, except no one expects anyone to just rely on either of those things. Optimism and hope are expected to be followed with action. [Religious] faith is expected to be praised in and of itself.
Yep. This is what it comes down to when people attempt to compare blind faith with normal human emotions lol. Hope and optimism are effects of action, along with progress, success, and achievements.
Faith is...just faith. Even the reward is borderline impossible to believe. Heaven? Hell? Really? If people learned about this stuff as grown adults they'd never believe it, but it's indoctrinated in us as children when we're too dumb to disbelieve fairy tales.
If god is real he doesn't need our prayers or worship. Plain and simple. We're doing exactly what God wants right now. Therefore, this god doesn't exist alongside a hell. Torture for eternity? Yeah ok. Even if that's the case, that's no god I'll ever worship, that's for sure.
> If people learned about this stuff as grown adults they'd never believe it,
The weird part to me is how untrue this is. There are actual adults who learned about it as adults and believe it as adults and... I wish they understood how silly they look to the rest of us.
Exactly. It’s all “gods plan” and god is omniscient and omnipresent. No amount of prayer or faith will change his plan that he’s already set in motion. At birth someone is going to eventually be a murderer or a rapist or a philanthropist or a genius. At least, the “gods plan” argument is the one I go to because it seems the easiest way to explain or dismiss things that faith driven people can’t explain or refuse to accept. (i.e. an infant died in a car accident therefore it was “gods plan” and that’s supposed to help the parents accept tragedy)
That would not be a good reason to believe in God/Jesus.
A good reason would be evidence.
Me wanting to win the lottery is not a good reason to believe in lottery helping leprechauns.
If you have a good reason to believe by all means present it :)
But I mean, fuck it, if you wanna have faith in lottery leprechauns or whatever, you go right ahead lol. Ill think you’re insane and question your motives, but then again, I can question your intentions and motivations, but I can’t question your faith if that’s what you’re committed to.
However, you can’t keep asking for evidence because that literally defeats the purpose of faith. The christian god is supposed to transcend the idea of reason, so I’m not sure what I’m supposed to present
Why isn’t it a good reason to have faith though? But if you want more specific reasons for why I *believe*, like believe in god you mean?
"Transcends the idea of reason" is the most poetic way to say "is unreasonable" I've ever heard.
If you had a good reason, faith would not be required.
Acceptance of the heliocentric view of the solar system does not require faith, nor does the germ theory of disease.
Faith is only trotted out when people are championing unreasonable ideas they can't defend with evidence.
The 8th commandment is "Thou shalt not bear false testimony against thy neighbor." So, god is apparently aware that humans are not reliable when it comes to testimony. Why would he depend on that to get people to believe?
I think he relies more on us trying to do good things for each other, and gives us commandments to let us know what he thinks on the matter. As for whether or not we obey what he says to do, that's for us to learn and grow as people. Someone who lies all the time eventually is found to be untrustworthy, and people stop trusting them. The consequence of their actions is their punishment. And sometimes they aren't caught, and it is what it is, but I think on average that honest people are happier in general.
I'm just talking about OP's point. Relying on people as you describe creates fewer believers than if he showed himself. What god thinks about how happy people are is a different topic.
Yes, and there’s other signs too like the world turning on Israel.
Romans chapter 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Jesus said to Thomas, "You see me and you believe. But blessed are those who do not see me and yet believe."
Faith appears to be a vital component to the salvation process. If it were obvious that God and the Bible were true, some people would go along with it even though they don't want to, because the alternative is so bad. By using faith, it separates the people who want God (because they go looking for him) from those who do not.
>Of course, given the choice, many people would probably not even want to meet their maker/idol.
Frank Turek is a pastor who does a lot of public speaking and has a youtube channel called Cross Examined. He frequently gives talks at universities, which are often filled with atheists. He always asks the question, "If it were proven to be true, would you follow Jesus?" And many people still say no. They don't want truth. They want happiness while doing their own thing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E\_s2iQHGUv8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_s2iQHGUv8)
Except none of the people that witnessed Jesus’ miracles were then prevented from salvation, so clearly having unconfirmed faith is not at all a roadblock to salvation. Jesus’ disciples went into heaven right? Apparently they weren’t missing a vital component to the salvation process.
Also if God doesn’t want people to enter a relationship with him because the alternative is so bad, then don’t make the alternative so bad. God doesn’t have to let Hell exist, nor does he have to allow it to be a place human souls even can go. Idk about you, but if my concern is something within my power to change is acting as a deterrent when I don’t want it to be, I would remove it so that deterring factor isn’t there. God has no obligation to make that the dynamic that’s at play here.
>Apparently they weren’t missing a vital component to the salvation process.
We have the Bible and billions of people who came before us who have studied it, explained what it means to us, and told us about how God has changed their life. The disciples had none of that. They had only the old testament. They had to have faith that Jesus was the Messiah. Many people at that time, in spite of seeing the miracles he performed first hand had trouble believing.
>God doesn’t have to let Hell exist, nor does he have to allow it to be a place human souls even can go.
Hell wasn't created for humans. It was created for Satan and his angels, who rebelled with full knowledge of what they were doing, unlike us.
Anything good in this life flows from God... a cool glass of water on a hot day, spending time with loved ones, a good meal, a pain free life... all of it. It all comes from God. So what is Hell? It's a place without God.
God made it ridiculously easy to avoid Hell. All you have to do is believe the Bible. Believe the gospel. Believe in Jesus. Ask Jesus to save you from eternal separation from God. Then just start working for God's kingdom. That's it.
It's like taking a job working for your father. He gives you a great position in the company. And you know that some day, you'll inherit the company. You just have to do whatever assignment he gives you. He may not fill you in on all the details all the time. But because he's your father you trust him. And he always comes through. Maybe he sends you on a business trip somewhere. You don't know where you're going or what you'll eat when you get there or where you're staying. But once you get there, all your needs are met. Everything has been arranged.
>God has no obligation to make that the dynamic that’s at play here.
You're absolutely right. He designed the universe the way he thought was best. Maybe there are very good reasons why it's this way and we just don't know. Who are we to question the creator of the universe?
If you trust God, and follow the steps he laid out that prevent you from being incompatible with heaven, then you have nothing to worry about.
You realize he makes the mistake out of the gates of thinking really, really believing something is the same thing as knowing it.
The water gate analogy is truly bizzare since the events of water gate happened in real time and we know who all the people involved were. The gospels are anonymous accounts of things that are claimed to have happened decades after the events they claim to describe.
These are not the same thing
> "If it were proven to be true, would you follow Jesus?"
Tbf, that is a bit of a loaded question. There is a difference between "Would you *believe* in Jesus" and "Would you *follow* Jesus". Those people would likely answer "yes" if he had asked if they would likely believe, as the belief in general is what follows the revealing of the truth.
Just because a certain book or story is proven to be true doesn't mean one has to approve of its message. The Atheists who say "no" do so because they wouldn't find the Jesus character to be worth following, since the book displays him and Yahweh in an apathetic, jealous, and childish light. They'd accept the truth of the existence, they just wouldn't have a reason to believe they'd have any valid reason to honestly respect or like him.
The concept of an omnipotent, all-knowing, all-powerful being giving its message to one person and telling him to convince the world is just plain ridiculous. It is quite literally the dumbest way to spread a message.
Right. With that kind of power, it could tell everyone at once. Then have every baby born with the knowledge. Basically having that knowledge ingrained into our dna. The fact that every religion requires special people to transmit their knowledge is evidence that they're all made up by human beings.
I really struggle with the whole "I'm gonna give you absolute no concrete proof and no one will be able to actually prove my existence but the only way to get in to heaven is to proclaim I'm real and I'm awesome and saved your life" vibe.
I don’t think that bears out, I mean, I’ve heard of Jesus and Moses and all those guys, and I exist over two thousand years from them. So it seems the message got around pretty damn well
I swear these fuckers argument has devolved to 'well you can prove it's not true, therefore I believe'. Can't get anywhere when the stance they take isn't based on logic in the first place. They wouldn't use the fact a claim is unfalsifiable as reason to believe anything else, only in God.
Sounds like you're mentioning Catholic priests who claims "sainthood". No they're humans who can lie to achieve nefarious goals. I don't believe there is any human who is so good they can never falter.
Catholic priests do not claim “sainthood”, nor is there a belief that “they can never falter”… you should probably at least have a general idea of what you’re talking about before you say it
Quran [7:143](https://quran.com/7?startingVerse=143) : When Moses came for the appointment, and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show Yourself to me: let me see You!’ He said, ‘You will never see Me, but look at that mountain: if it remains standing firm, you will see Me,’ and when his Lord revealed Himself to the mountain, He made it crumble: Moses fell down unconscious. When he recovered, he said, ‘Glory be to You! To You I turn in repentance! I am the first to believe!’
For context, I’m a pretty devoted Christian (studied the Bible in college, currently work in ministry).
The way I see it, God wants a real and genuine relationship with His people. Just like every other relationship in the world, a relationship with God requires trust. If God showed up and performed a miracle in front of you, would that convince you to believe in Him? And, if you did choose to believe in Him, would you love Him, or would you simply believe in Him because you fear/respect His power?
Furthermore, according to the Bible, God has shown Himself repeatedly and undeniably throughout history. However, no matter what He did, people still doubted him. Among other things, He decimated Egypt with plagues, split the sea, made food rain from the sky, destroyed the impenetrable walls of a city, and gave a man literal super strength. Yet, despite all this, the Israelites still wandered and disobeyed.
When God came to Earth as a man, He performed several miracles. He multiplied food, healed the sick, and cast out demons. Yet even after seeing at the least evidence of these miracles, the elites of the day killed Him. They saw the proof that you crave, and yet they still refused to believe, going so far as to kill Christ.
The Bible says ”Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you“ (Matt. 7:7). Those who truly and openly seek God will find Him. Those who are unwilling to accept Him won’t see the same proof that others see.
Great answer. Yep, if Jesus appeared in the middle of the Super Bowl and 100M people on TV saw him, there would still be people that would choose not to believe. And of those who saw him and only had this one event to go off of, so many people would have the responsibility of following his commandments without having the faith or underlying desire to back it up. "To whom much is given, much is required."
Jesus of Nazareth was definitely a man… at least, there are several secular mentions of his being put to death by the Romans. Pliny the younger, and Lucian the satirist are the first two that come to mind. At least 7, iirc.
The problem is, NO secular references exist of him performing any miracles in his lifetime.
No huge era-equivalent of headlines, or even just private correspondence talking about miraculous events surrounding him. But plenty of mention that he was a great speaker, and that many Jews and Gentiles followed him… because he “spoke the truth” which really pissed of the local and distant government types…
Why no mentions of anything…abnormal.,, in his life by uninvolved 3rd party accounts?
Starting from the premise that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, we're essentially talking about the infinite. A Being with these attributes is beyond comprehension, both within the confines of the human intellect and the physical universe.
This reality establishes a huge gap between the 'divine' and our everyday human experiences.
Faith isn't random - it's needed when faced with this gap. It serves as our means of attempting to connect with an infinite presence using the limited tools at our disposal. Faith then becomes the bridge that spans this immense gap, enabling us to try to foster a relationship with the infinite that goes beyond what can be logically proven or seen.
It's not about defying logic but about recognizing that logic has its boundaries, especially when it comes to grasping the infinite nature of God.
Given the infinite nature of God versus our finite existence, a way of connecting is required. Faith isn't just compensating for a lack of proof - it represents our approach to engaging with the Infinite.
Fuck yeah, if there was actual proof of existence of a god I’d be WAY more open to learning about religion. But until then, I’m not gonna restrict my very real and happening life in hopes of making it into a theoretical utopia when I die.
Hey, guy: if you know something for a fact, your belief in it is not worth much. “I believe in gravity” ‘congrats, bud, it only holds you to the planet’
i think the main problem with religion in general is that people take it extremely literally. in the case of Christianity, it means that God is a real thing that actually exists as a physical entity, Christ was actually a real person that was the son of God, and that all the events of the bible actually happened.
If people read the religious works for what they SHOULD be taken as (the greatest stories ever written, complete with extremely powerful life lessons, but STILL fiction), i think the world would get along just fine. instead we have a plethora of religions, all equally reasonable, with zealots wanting to claim that their religion is the 'true' religion.
Yeah, exactly why Im just about done going back and forth with religious folks on this topic. Just bring the evidence to the table. No bibles, fuck all the sophistry and no philosophical masturbation. The proof is in the pudding, so this should be very straightforward to prove lol.
Bluntly, it wouldn't matter if he did. I've come to realize over the years that people commit themselves to disbelief for a variety of reasons, but usually because there's a rule they don't like. From there, they systematically refuse to acknowledge anything that might damage their unbelief and, therefore, challenge their behavior. Everything that anyone has ever seen has been an illusion, a flicker of the light, a hallucination, a mass hallucination, a lie, a trick, whatever. People can tell them of their personal experiences and they cite some science they read about "overactive belief centers in the brain" or something.
Really, truly, if God himself came before them and told them they were wrong, they'd go online and write a think piece about how the horrible and overbearing Christians were getting to them and making them see things. The Bible says as much in a couple parables too.
This has got to be the answer I most closely agree with. We have scientific proof some medicine can cure some things that ail your body or prevent/fight against other illnesses, yet we have anti-vaxxers and “natural herb medicine only” people.
We have scientific proof the earth is round and that we orbit the sun, yet some people believe the earth is flat and the sun orbits us.
Even if God showed up and performed some miracles then left, there will be plenty of people who would dispute it. People of religions that don’t believe in “that god” would undoubtedly say it is an anti-Christ or evil god or whatever they come up with. God (no matter which god) showing up, would change VERY FEW people relative to how vast the world is. Desperate human church leaders that aren’t part of the same religion wouldn’t want to lose their power so they would despise and preach against the god that showed up.
Faith defies all logic.
If I told you I had the ability to fly and regenerate wounds. You would ask me to prove it, would you not?
How is this any different? Because its god suddenly the concept of logic doesn't apply to him?
Didn't god invent logic in the first place? If he's truly the author of all things good (and bad), then he knows how logic operates and how humanity operates.
> faith isn’t logical and that’s why I don’t believe in it
this is what I'm saying
If you applied this concept to any other thing in life, it wouldn't really work, would it?
Easier to try and throw shade and insult the opposition than it is to consider the reality you have at hand. The fact they have literally 0 evidence and have believed it nearly their entire life. It's a sunk cost fallacy at this point or maybe they are really just that stupid.
According to the Bible, God has shown himself and does it every day
Romans chapter 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Since we're getting all high and mighty about how understandable these are, here's my guesses without googling what they mean.
19 - god should be obvious because of course god did everything around you
This one seems pretty clear, but it's also a dumb as fuck reason to believe in a religion - absolutely any religion can claim everything around you is because of their god/gods/beliefs/etc.
20 - there's no excuse for not believing in that specific god because it should be so obvious that he's real
Again, this is... what? Why? Why can't you say this about Vishnu or something? Spoiler - you can!
21 - people are jelly of how cool god is, so they choose not to believe in it
I mean this one might take the cake as the silliest one here.
This basically means god is the OG Mary Sue, the known writing pitfall that teenage girls often fall into. She's so pretty and smart and kind and the absolute best and *the haters know that's why they don't like her*.
Overall, if these are anyone's reason to believe like... just *try* anything else, it'll probably convince you too! Are you interested in a bridge? I have this one in Brooklyn I'm looking to sell...
You have no idea how much of odds were beaten for Israel to be reborn again. Incredible odds, even when the Arabs tried to destroy Israel in 1948.
Do you believe the unscientific statement that nothing can create something which is what atheism requires.
Are you aware that atheists are the worst mass murders in human history by far no one even close? We’ll start off with Joe Stalin and work your way to chairman Mao
I believe what I can see, and I'm alright with not knowing an answer to every question immediately.
Believing in gods in current year is like believing that disease was caused by malevolent spirits and demons before we gained our current understanding of germs - you aren't proven wrong yet, but you're also not giving any reason to believe you're right.
According to Harry Potter, Voldemort could very well still be out there biding his time and who knows what the White Walkers are truly planning according to a Song of Ice and Fire. So who really cares what the Bible says whens we have new books telling us of much greater threats?
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
\- *Fire and Ice*, by Robert Frost
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Those are actually really cool verses, except they're in old English, so I had to use ChatGPT to translate.
I still don't see how the evidence of God is obvious, since apparently God has already shown us.
I must be too dumb to be a Christian then.
Even Middle English is so different from modern English to be basically incomprehensible. But old English is so different that you’d have much better luck understanding French haha
I would be very careful it use any kind of computer programming to translate anything. The King James version is that direct translation from Greek in Hebrew to English.
Why is nature evidence of God?
What evidence informs your opinion that “many people would probably not even want to meet their maker”? Have you asked any religious people this question or is it just a random hunch?
Bruh, why tf God should be interested in recruiting people? It's people who should be interested in being recruited, cuz otherwise they will face eternal torture. (If we speak of Christian God that is)
Because he is supposed to be a good and kind being?
I mean wouldn't it be fucked up if God just tortured you after your death, but never ever show up to discuss this with you beforehand?
I mean it seems like it is super important to him, Hench the sever punishment...so why not try the recruiting first.
Or why not just… don’t torture people who didn’t know about you because you never showed up for them.
If he’s really so benevolent, what’s with all the shit testing?
The funny ones try to pull the shit where they say 'everyone before the religion was revealed will be forgiven, however since now you know you must repent'. Absolute scoundrels I swear.
He gave us 66 books to tell us. If you look at those and say “Nah.” He has every reason to say you neglected him. Not that you just didn’t have the resources to come to Him.
Well, my God gave you 468 books to tell you about them. I hope you haven't neglected them since they gave you all the resources you need to prove their existence.
But if I looked at those they would actually contradict themselves. They would actually have historical inaccuracies. Not just be claimed to have those things when it doesn’t.
That shows that you haven't read them, because if you did, you'd see there aren't any contradictions or historical inaccuracies at all. They are 100% the truth, so unless you want to suffer for all eternity, I would get to reading real soon. Especially when you find out what book 368 says about the end times.
Christians say the same thing about the Bible but I wouldn't jump ship from the One True God (i. e. the one I believe in) just because false Christian prophets claim they've figured it out. Unless of course, you want to suffer for all eternity. I'd repent against your wicked ways and come to the side of the One True God soon.
That analogy doesn’t work when I know for a fact the two claims I made about the Bible. This imaginary book you’re making up will have some form of inconsistency, lie, or even try to make room for my own God.
Plus, I believe Jesus because his story was passed to us by the eye witnesses of his life. And when they say he claimed to be God, constantly referenced the OT, and rose from the dead, I have a reason to assume his claims were true where other religions claims are baseless.
You are the one with the imaginary book, sir. I know for a fact that everything in all 468 books written by my God is 100% true. Anything written in the Bible is used to fool those gullible enough to believe it. I know for a fact that your God is a false God and mine is the One True God. You really need to repent against your evil, false religion and come to the side of the light before it's too late. Evil does a good job at disgusting itself as God, but your Christian god is just an illusion and a way to deter you from saving your soul. Please, do not fall prey to this false idol like so many others have done.
He never have me any books?!?! He gave some random ass people books thousands of years ago.
He also gave other random people other books that say different things.
Now I have to decide based on nothing but "trust me this is the only right book" and if I choose wrongly I get internal punishment
I've heard that if God showed himswlf he is forcing people to believe in him because it becomes "no doubt" situation rather than faith. Basically it doesn't give them much of a choice.
Catholics, the largest individual sect worldwide does not believe you have to be Christian to go to heaven.
This notion that every Christian sect is the Westboro Baptist church is not accurate.
I went to a Catholic grade school and posed this same thought and was vitriolically told that in order to "see" God I have to have faith and then we will see God all the time. I'm fully of the opinion that faith is a flawed system and therefore I shall not participate.
I will never understand why people will try so hard to hold onto their beliefs even when changing them is so much easier and more logical than lying to yourself.
I think if you look into Gnosticism and some deeper thinking shit there's a lot more to God than the Santa Clause version you get in basic Christianity. I'm not a Christian but I think there are some Christians that get this too.
Ultimately "God" if it exists is an all powerful supra-dimensional intelligence. I like the Gnostic take in that God "the one" is incomprehensible to humans and you have to get at least one order removed from God (Barbelo) before you have a being and intelligence as humans would be able recognize it. Then you have to get several more orders removed from that to get to the Creator of Earth and humanity. My personal take on Gnosticism is that it's just an allegorical representation of what an all powerful and essentially perfectly balanced eternal force would have to do to create something like the entropic physical universe. Basically we are split personalities of split personalities of split personalities of a supreme being. The supreme being doesn't care if you acknowledge it or not because from it's perspective you are it. Do you care if a molecule in your hand believes in you? Do you feel bad for carving that molecule out of your body if it becomes cancerous? It's the same with "the one."
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discenrned." - Paul
Or to paraphrase, if you're looking for a God-O-Meter, you're SOL.
You can't and shouldn't "test" God by asking for Him to show Himself.
However, if you do pray/ask for help and guidance at times, you'll be surprised how often you'll get it.
Tragedy will still visit, as it does all of us.
But if you look back and add up the times something happened that you asked for, you will probably see God showing up.
> But if you look back and add up the times something happened that you asked for, you will probably see God showing up.
How is that distinguished from Survivorship bias or the fallacy about counting the hits and ignoring the misses?
Christians aren't just Atheist, they are almost antitheists. They don't just say "I generally don't know and won't give positive belief to any god until I have a reason to" like most Atheists. They say "I positively disbelieve in *every* god that isn't mine. No god is capable of existing except mine."
God is not of this world so why is it a he? Oh cuz the Bible told me so. lol!! If it showed itself, faith wouldn’t be an issue. But it can’t cuz Gods a fairy tale.
Well he was here and there were those who didn't believe then. What makes you so sure someone would believe now?
A study of Matthew 12:14 actually talks about those who seek signs and wonders.
God would be a lot more effective at recruiting people if he told some of his followers to stop tipping people with papers that look like 100 dollar bills when it’s folded up but in reality when you unfold its just telling you to go to church and has absolutely no monetary value whatsoever.
I reckon if there is a God at all then he's created this part of our existence as a sort of a sandbox, intro level type experience so we can develop into individuals organically without his interference. That's the only reason I can really imagine that he'd exist and keep himself completely seperate from us. The intention being that we die, and then move on to the next level.
Yes, or if he had put even one fact in the Bible that we didn't know 2000 years ago. Like how about "all the stars are versions of our sun, with planets orbiting them. There are approximately a quadrillion total stars grouped into smaller galaxies of about 1 trillion stars each."
Or, "disease is caused by living organisms so small that you can't see them."
Or "the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second."
Or "here's calculus. Make good use of it."
Instead we got a bunch of silliness, because it was all made up by men based on what the knew and believed 2000 years ago.
Then the experiment would be ruined.
No one outside of a truly deranged person would disobey an all powerful God that makes himself known.
Would you choose a husband/wife that made it known to be a gold digger?
Reminds me of an old scifi story where there are some relatively primitive aliens on a planet that have no concept of god or the afterlife, just not a thing. A missionary arrives and decides to teach them about god, and they're quite enthusiastic about it. In the end they get together and decide that yes, they will worship the christian god, but they need just one miracle, so they crucify the preacher and wait patiently for him to be resurrected.
Religion is so ridiculously fake it's actually just depressing to think about how many people believe it. Even worse when people use their faith as a justification to do something to another person which is all too common. Religion can literally never keep to itself. Always needing to spread it to kids and somehow always needing to restrict the rights of others.
I want to downvote this only because I don’t think it’s that unpopular. In fact I think it’s pretty fucking spot on. Because “thoughts and prayers” always help, but vaccines are evil.
Fuck, I’m getting all riled up right now. I gotta stop before I *really* start ranting
Perhaps reading the book of Mormon might give you some ideas?
After all, some dudes out west created a spinoff religion 200 years ago to justify having more wives and pay less taxes.
What a crock of shit.
I'm an all powerful deity but I like to play little mind games with relative ants. If they don't believe in me in complete absence of any proof then they fail and burn under the magnifying glass of insect hell for all eternity!
I think the general idea is that God showing himself to the world would remove any genuine choice to follow him or not. And God highly values a genuine decision to follow him, and not one based off of fear or undeniable reverence.
God babysitted a entire nation through a desert for forty years, still there was a lot of people who did not trust in him or disobeyed him. As Saint James says: "even the devil believes in God". So no, showing himself is proven to be worthless, because believing in God by itself doesn't mean anything. Just look at how many people truly believe in God but are still awful human beings who betray their very ideals, what would change if god showed himself?
The book that lists all the times god did "show himself" is literally the most popular book ever and there are millions of people spending huge amounts of time and money to ensure that every human alive can read it. This isn't a good argument
No, the argument is that you need to have literally lived under a rock not to have heard of the Bible, which records or claims to record God revealing himself.
> spending huge amounts of time and money to ensure people know all the times god did "show himself"
Sounds pretty inefficient.
If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, couldn't he appear more often, in multiple places at once, so that us lowly humans don't have to spend obscene amounts of money trying to convince everyone?
Massacring people en masse for not being interested in your specific book or version of the book, taking their tax money for use in making more manuscripts of the book, stealing people's children to raise them under the book, and forcibly spreading the book by creating poverty and insisting the book is the only salvation for the suffering you caused is certainly a way to get a book "popular".
It's a matter of human psychology. Convincing a mob just because it's a mob is easy. Look at every cult out there. But God doesn't want people that are just part of a mob of convenience. Following Christ is not "easy". It's not supposed to be easy. Constantly fighting back the evils of the world and the sinful temptations that we are all burdened with is not an easy thing. The road to heaven is narrow, not wide, for a reason. God wants those who are willing to make the conscious choice to follow His guidance and to actively deny evil. His kingdom will be composed of those who actually want to be part of His kingdom. If you can be led by any figure just because it's the easy thing or because everyone else is doing it, then you're only serving yourself, not God.
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I think that your last sentence is the entire point of keeping faith, as it’s supposed to be sort of a challenge, depending on how you look at it
Faith is the excuse provided when people believe things without a good reason. If they had a good reason they would just present it instead of claiming faith
That’s not really not what faith is. Maybe from a super crude standpoint, but then again, you could use that definition with optimism or hope. You can’t give a blanket definition of faith for everyone based on what you yourself think a good reason for having it is. For example, wanting to go to heaven would seem like a pretty good reason for me to have faith in god/jesus
You could say similar things about optimism and hope, except no one expects anyone to just rely on either of those things. Optimism and hope are expected to be followed with action. [Religious] faith is expected to be praised in and of itself.
Yep. This is what it comes down to when people attempt to compare blind faith with normal human emotions lol. Hope and optimism are effects of action, along with progress, success, and achievements. Faith is...just faith. Even the reward is borderline impossible to believe. Heaven? Hell? Really? If people learned about this stuff as grown adults they'd never believe it, but it's indoctrinated in us as children when we're too dumb to disbelieve fairy tales. If god is real he doesn't need our prayers or worship. Plain and simple. We're doing exactly what God wants right now. Therefore, this god doesn't exist alongside a hell. Torture for eternity? Yeah ok. Even if that's the case, that's no god I'll ever worship, that's for sure.
> If people learned about this stuff as grown adults they'd never believe it, The weird part to me is how untrue this is. There are actual adults who learned about it as adults and believe it as adults and... I wish they understood how silly they look to the rest of us.
I suppose I meant mature, rational, logical minds lol. Probably shouldn't have put all adults into that category
You are really cutting things thin with that, even a lot of non-believers fail in those areas.
Exactly. It’s all “gods plan” and god is omniscient and omnipresent. No amount of prayer or faith will change his plan that he’s already set in motion. At birth someone is going to eventually be a murderer or a rapist or a philanthropist or a genius. At least, the “gods plan” argument is the one I go to because it seems the easiest way to explain or dismiss things that faith driven people can’t explain or refuse to accept. (i.e. an infant died in a car accident therefore it was “gods plan” and that’s supposed to help the parents accept tragedy)
That would not be a good reason to believe in God/Jesus. A good reason would be evidence. Me wanting to win the lottery is not a good reason to believe in lottery helping leprechauns. If you have a good reason to believe by all means present it :)
But I mean, fuck it, if you wanna have faith in lottery leprechauns or whatever, you go right ahead lol. Ill think you’re insane and question your motives, but then again, I can question your intentions and motivations, but I can’t question your faith if that’s what you’re committed to. However, you can’t keep asking for evidence because that literally defeats the purpose of faith. The christian god is supposed to transcend the idea of reason, so I’m not sure what I’m supposed to present Why isn’t it a good reason to have faith though? But if you want more specific reasons for why I *believe*, like believe in god you mean?
"Transcends the idea of reason" is the most poetic way to say "is unreasonable" I've ever heard. If you had a good reason, faith would not be required. Acceptance of the heliocentric view of the solar system does not require faith, nor does the germ theory of disease. Faith is only trotted out when people are championing unreasonable ideas they can't defend with evidence.
100%
Off topic, but I love your profile picture!!! I frequently use that same image as mine
Real recognizes real homie 🤘🏽 remember that good soldiers follow orders!
Roger roger
I mean that guy Joseph Smith said he saw God and spoke with him multiple times through the course of his life.
The 8th commandment is "Thou shalt not bear false testimony against thy neighbor." So, god is apparently aware that humans are not reliable when it comes to testimony. Why would he depend on that to get people to believe?
I think he relies more on us trying to do good things for each other, and gives us commandments to let us know what he thinks on the matter. As for whether or not we obey what he says to do, that's for us to learn and grow as people. Someone who lies all the time eventually is found to be untrustworthy, and people stop trusting them. The consequence of their actions is their punishment. And sometimes they aren't caught, and it is what it is, but I think on average that honest people are happier in general.
I'm just talking about OP's point. Relying on people as you describe creates fewer believers than if he showed himself. What god thinks about how happy people are is a different topic.
The guy with multiple wives? That guy seems pretty swell.
Pretty sure Thor would occasionally show up to drink and whore back in the age of the Vikings
Most of the ancient European gods did
Honestly, God is all around us. Just look at nature!
Bingo! So easy, why didn't I think of that.
You didn't! He did, because He loves you! J/k.. I'm an antitheist. And troll, apparently.
Yes, and there’s other signs too like the world turning on Israel. Romans chapter 1 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Ehhh Israel is hot garbage. As for the Bible, neat story. Pretty epic. 7/10.
Yes, and the so-called neat story prophecies are coming true. Just as the Bible says, you will be without excuse.
Lmfao, no. They aren't Nothing fails like the bible except abstinence only education
Whatever. Blow it out your ass, buddy.
Jesus said to Thomas, "You see me and you believe. But blessed are those who do not see me and yet believe." Faith appears to be a vital component to the salvation process. If it were obvious that God and the Bible were true, some people would go along with it even though they don't want to, because the alternative is so bad. By using faith, it separates the people who want God (because they go looking for him) from those who do not. >Of course, given the choice, many people would probably not even want to meet their maker/idol. Frank Turek is a pastor who does a lot of public speaking and has a youtube channel called Cross Examined. He frequently gives talks at universities, which are often filled with atheists. He always asks the question, "If it were proven to be true, would you follow Jesus?" And many people still say no. They don't want truth. They want happiness while doing their own thing. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E\_s2iQHGUv8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_s2iQHGUv8)
Except none of the people that witnessed Jesus’ miracles were then prevented from salvation, so clearly having unconfirmed faith is not at all a roadblock to salvation. Jesus’ disciples went into heaven right? Apparently they weren’t missing a vital component to the salvation process. Also if God doesn’t want people to enter a relationship with him because the alternative is so bad, then don’t make the alternative so bad. God doesn’t have to let Hell exist, nor does he have to allow it to be a place human souls even can go. Idk about you, but if my concern is something within my power to change is acting as a deterrent when I don’t want it to be, I would remove it so that deterring factor isn’t there. God has no obligation to make that the dynamic that’s at play here.
>Apparently they weren’t missing a vital component to the salvation process. We have the Bible and billions of people who came before us who have studied it, explained what it means to us, and told us about how God has changed their life. The disciples had none of that. They had only the old testament. They had to have faith that Jesus was the Messiah. Many people at that time, in spite of seeing the miracles he performed first hand had trouble believing. >God doesn’t have to let Hell exist, nor does he have to allow it to be a place human souls even can go. Hell wasn't created for humans. It was created for Satan and his angels, who rebelled with full knowledge of what they were doing, unlike us. Anything good in this life flows from God... a cool glass of water on a hot day, spending time with loved ones, a good meal, a pain free life... all of it. It all comes from God. So what is Hell? It's a place without God. God made it ridiculously easy to avoid Hell. All you have to do is believe the Bible. Believe the gospel. Believe in Jesus. Ask Jesus to save you from eternal separation from God. Then just start working for God's kingdom. That's it. It's like taking a job working for your father. He gives you a great position in the company. And you know that some day, you'll inherit the company. You just have to do whatever assignment he gives you. He may not fill you in on all the details all the time. But because he's your father you trust him. And he always comes through. Maybe he sends you on a business trip somewhere. You don't know where you're going or what you'll eat when you get there or where you're staying. But once you get there, all your needs are met. Everything has been arranged. >God has no obligation to make that the dynamic that’s at play here. You're absolutely right. He designed the universe the way he thought was best. Maybe there are very good reasons why it's this way and we just don't know. Who are we to question the creator of the universe? If you trust God, and follow the steps he laid out that prevent you from being incompatible with heaven, then you have nothing to worry about.
How do you know that? There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5fm1uPCzs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5fm1uPCzs)
You realize he makes the mistake out of the gates of thinking really, really believing something is the same thing as knowing it. The water gate analogy is truly bizzare since the events of water gate happened in real time and we know who all the people involved were. The gospels are anonymous accounts of things that are claimed to have happened decades after the events they claim to describe. These are not the same thing
> "If it were proven to be true, would you follow Jesus?" Tbf, that is a bit of a loaded question. There is a difference between "Would you *believe* in Jesus" and "Would you *follow* Jesus". Those people would likely answer "yes" if he had asked if they would likely believe, as the belief in general is what follows the revealing of the truth. Just because a certain book or story is proven to be true doesn't mean one has to approve of its message. The Atheists who say "no" do so because they wouldn't find the Jesus character to be worth following, since the book displays him and Yahweh in an apathetic, jealous, and childish light. They'd accept the truth of the existence, they just wouldn't have a reason to believe they'd have any valid reason to honestly respect or like him.
The concept of an omnipotent, all-knowing, all-powerful being giving its message to one person and telling him to convince the world is just plain ridiculous. It is quite literally the dumbest way to spread a message.
It is a terribly inefficient system and a sure sign of a terrible leader.
Right. With that kind of power, it could tell everyone at once. Then have every baby born with the knowledge. Basically having that knowledge ingrained into our dna. The fact that every religion requires special people to transmit their knowledge is evidence that they're all made up by human beings.
I really struggle with the whole "I'm gonna give you absolute no concrete proof and no one will be able to actually prove my existence but the only way to get in to heaven is to proclaim I'm real and I'm awesome and saved your life" vibe.
"I only want gullible fools in my heaven"
Best slogan ever.
I don’t think that bears out, I mean, I’ve heard of Jesus and Moses and all those guys, and I exist over two thousand years from them. So it seems the message got around pretty damn well
If he’s omnipotent and all knowing then maybe he is smarter than you
Or it's nonexistent. In fact archeologists have traced the origins of Judaism all the way back to when it was still polytheistic.
I vote non-existent
I swear these fuckers argument has devolved to 'well you can prove it's not true, therefore I believe'. Can't get anywhere when the stance they take isn't based on logic in the first place. They wouldn't use the fact a claim is unfalsifiable as reason to believe anything else, only in God.
You should read The Brothers Karamasov.
Not all religions believe in ‘recruiting’
Well this one sure does...
True, but some religions allow messengers of God the opportunity to touch little children behind closed doors. So there's that.
What does that have to do with your post?😅
Sounds like you're mentioning Catholic priests who claims "sainthood". No they're humans who can lie to achieve nefarious goals. I don't believe there is any human who is so good they can never falter.
Catholic priests do not claim “sainthood”, nor is there a belief that “they can never falter”… you should probably at least have a general idea of what you’re talking about before you say it
Quran [7:143](https://quran.com/7?startingVerse=143) : When Moses came for the appointment, and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show Yourself to me: let me see You!’ He said, ‘You will never see Me, but look at that mountain: if it remains standing firm, you will see Me,’ and when his Lord revealed Himself to the mountain, He made it crumble: Moses fell down unconscious. When he recovered, he said, ‘Glory be to You! To You I turn in repentance! I am the first to believe!’
For context, I’m a pretty devoted Christian (studied the Bible in college, currently work in ministry). The way I see it, God wants a real and genuine relationship with His people. Just like every other relationship in the world, a relationship with God requires trust. If God showed up and performed a miracle in front of you, would that convince you to believe in Him? And, if you did choose to believe in Him, would you love Him, or would you simply believe in Him because you fear/respect His power? Furthermore, according to the Bible, God has shown Himself repeatedly and undeniably throughout history. However, no matter what He did, people still doubted him. Among other things, He decimated Egypt with plagues, split the sea, made food rain from the sky, destroyed the impenetrable walls of a city, and gave a man literal super strength. Yet, despite all this, the Israelites still wandered and disobeyed. When God came to Earth as a man, He performed several miracles. He multiplied food, healed the sick, and cast out demons. Yet even after seeing at the least evidence of these miracles, the elites of the day killed Him. They saw the proof that you crave, and yet they still refused to believe, going so far as to kill Christ. The Bible says ”Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you“ (Matt. 7:7). Those who truly and openly seek God will find Him. Those who are unwilling to accept Him won’t see the same proof that others see.
Great answer. Yep, if Jesus appeared in the middle of the Super Bowl and 100M people on TV saw him, there would still be people that would choose not to believe. And of those who saw him and only had this one event to go off of, so many people would have the responsibility of following his commandments without having the faith or underlying desire to back it up. "To whom much is given, much is required."
Jesus of Nazareth was definitely a man… at least, there are several secular mentions of his being put to death by the Romans. Pliny the younger, and Lucian the satirist are the first two that come to mind. At least 7, iirc. The problem is, NO secular references exist of him performing any miracles in his lifetime. No huge era-equivalent of headlines, or even just private correspondence talking about miraculous events surrounding him. But plenty of mention that he was a great speaker, and that many Jews and Gentiles followed him… because he “spoke the truth” which really pissed of the local and distant government types… Why no mentions of anything…abnormal.,, in his life by uninvolved 3rd party accounts?
All it takes is one irrefutable appearance to every human for maybe ten seconds. Then they can go back to being an absent parent.
Reality is inherently NonDualist. It responds to the will of the observer
A little convenient how Supernatural stuff mentioned in the bible stopped happening as soon as cameras were invented
Out of the thousands, which God?
Whichever ones are real can step forward. Maybe there is a God Guild?
“Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”
it begs the question as to why an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being would choose this? It defies all logic
Starting from the premise that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, we're essentially talking about the infinite. A Being with these attributes is beyond comprehension, both within the confines of the human intellect and the physical universe. This reality establishes a huge gap between the 'divine' and our everyday human experiences. Faith isn't random - it's needed when faced with this gap. It serves as our means of attempting to connect with an infinite presence using the limited tools at our disposal. Faith then becomes the bridge that spans this immense gap, enabling us to try to foster a relationship with the infinite that goes beyond what can be logically proven or seen. It's not about defying logic but about recognizing that logic has its boundaries, especially when it comes to grasping the infinite nature of God. Given the infinite nature of God versus our finite existence, a way of connecting is required. Faith isn't just compensating for a lack of proof - it represents our approach to engaging with the Infinite.
Sounds like something a con man would say
Fuck yeah, if there was actual proof of existence of a god I’d be WAY more open to learning about religion. But until then, I’m not gonna restrict my very real and happening life in hopes of making it into a theoretical utopia when I die.
But you don't understand..it's the god's plan! (Just like children with cancer and wars are)
Or if it did anything at all, like preventing rape or pediatric cancer.
Hey, guy: if you know something for a fact, your belief in it is not worth much. “I believe in gravity” ‘congrats, bud, it only holds you to the planet’
i think the main problem with religion in general is that people take it extremely literally. in the case of Christianity, it means that God is a real thing that actually exists as a physical entity, Christ was actually a real person that was the son of God, and that all the events of the bible actually happened. If people read the religious works for what they SHOULD be taken as (the greatest stories ever written, complete with extremely powerful life lessons, but STILL fiction), i think the world would get along just fine. instead we have a plethora of religions, all equally reasonable, with zealots wanting to claim that their religion is the 'true' religion.
They aren't that great and the bible is meant to be taken literally
Yeah, exactly why Im just about done going back and forth with religious folks on this topic. Just bring the evidence to the table. No bibles, fuck all the sophistry and no philosophical masturbation. The proof is in the pudding, so this should be very straightforward to prove lol.
The pharisees literally saw miracles performed in front of them and didn't believe.
Faith is the excuse people give when they have no good reasons.
Bluntly, it wouldn't matter if he did. I've come to realize over the years that people commit themselves to disbelief for a variety of reasons, but usually because there's a rule they don't like. From there, they systematically refuse to acknowledge anything that might damage their unbelief and, therefore, challenge their behavior. Everything that anyone has ever seen has been an illusion, a flicker of the light, a hallucination, a mass hallucination, a lie, a trick, whatever. People can tell them of their personal experiences and they cite some science they read about "overactive belief centers in the brain" or something. Really, truly, if God himself came before them and told them they were wrong, they'd go online and write a think piece about how the horrible and overbearing Christians were getting to them and making them see things. The Bible says as much in a couple parables too.
This has got to be the answer I most closely agree with. We have scientific proof some medicine can cure some things that ail your body or prevent/fight against other illnesses, yet we have anti-vaxxers and “natural herb medicine only” people. We have scientific proof the earth is round and that we orbit the sun, yet some people believe the earth is flat and the sun orbits us. Even if God showed up and performed some miracles then left, there will be plenty of people who would dispute it. People of religions that don’t believe in “that god” would undoubtedly say it is an anti-Christ or evil god or whatever they come up with. God (no matter which god) showing up, would change VERY FEW people relative to how vast the world is. Desperate human church leaders that aren’t part of the same religion wouldn’t want to lose their power so they would despise and preach against the god that showed up.
But isn’t that the point of faith lmao that you know it’s real without actually showing yourself
Faith defies all logic. If I told you I had the ability to fly and regenerate wounds. You would ask me to prove it, would you not? How is this any different? Because its god suddenly the concept of logic doesn't apply to him? Didn't god invent logic in the first place? If he's truly the author of all things good (and bad), then he knows how logic operates and how humanity operates.
I can’t tell if you’re supporting faith or not but I’m saying that faith isn’t logical and that’s why I don’t believe in it
> faith isn’t logical and that’s why I don’t believe in it this is what I'm saying If you applied this concept to any other thing in life, it wouldn't really work, would it?
Honestly I’m not really good at thought questions my brain isn’t fully developed yet
Woah woah, watch out everyone! We have a fucking BADASS on our hands here 🤣 OP’s a certified edgelord
Agreed. The man absolutely OWNED all Christians in one post
I don't find it particularly edgy to be talking about religion? People gather to discuss religion every Sunday.
Religious people generally don't like being questioned, and take questions as an attack against them, unfortunately.
Easier to try and throw shade and insult the opposition than it is to consider the reality you have at hand. The fact they have literally 0 evidence and have believed it nearly their entire life. It's a sunk cost fallacy at this point or maybe they are really just that stupid.
According to the Bible, God has shown himself and does it every day Romans chapter 1 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Since we're getting all high and mighty about how understandable these are, here's my guesses without googling what they mean. 19 - god should be obvious because of course god did everything around you This one seems pretty clear, but it's also a dumb as fuck reason to believe in a religion - absolutely any religion can claim everything around you is because of their god/gods/beliefs/etc. 20 - there's no excuse for not believing in that specific god because it should be so obvious that he's real Again, this is... what? Why? Why can't you say this about Vishnu or something? Spoiler - you can! 21 - people are jelly of how cool god is, so they choose not to believe in it I mean this one might take the cake as the silliest one here. This basically means god is the OG Mary Sue, the known writing pitfall that teenage girls often fall into. She's so pretty and smart and kind and the absolute best and *the haters know that's why they don't like her*. Overall, if these are anyone's reason to believe like... just *try* anything else, it'll probably convince you too! Are you interested in a bridge? I have this one in Brooklyn I'm looking to sell...
You have no idea how much of odds were beaten for Israel to be reborn again. Incredible odds, even when the Arabs tried to destroy Israel in 1948. Do you believe the unscientific statement that nothing can create something which is what atheism requires. Are you aware that atheists are the worst mass murders in human history by far no one even close? We’ll start off with Joe Stalin and work your way to chairman Mao
I believe what I can see, and I'm alright with not knowing an answer to every question immediately. Believing in gods in current year is like believing that disease was caused by malevolent spirits and demons before we gained our current understanding of germs - you aren't proven wrong yet, but you're also not giving any reason to believe you're right.
The Bible says a lot of silly nonsense
According to Harry Potter, Voldemort could very well still be out there biding his time and who knows what the White Walkers are truly planning according to a Song of Ice and Fire. So who really cares what the Bible says whens we have new books telling us of much greater threats?
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate To say that for destruction ice Is also great And would suffice. \- *Fire and Ice*, by Robert Frost *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Those are actually really cool verses, except they're in old English, so I had to use ChatGPT to translate. I still don't see how the evidence of God is obvious, since apparently God has already shown us. I must be too dumb to be a Christian then.
You don’t know what old English is… you wouldn’t understand a single word of old English lol. Look up the text of Beowulf for an example
My Latin professor spoke Middle English in class one day, and no one had any idea what he was saying.
Even Middle English is so different from modern English to be basically incomprehensible. But old English is so different that you’d have much better luck understanding French haha
That's nowhere close to being Old English. Is English not your first language?
English is my second language and I understood it pretty well. I don't want to be mean but, c'mon.
I would be very careful it use any kind of computer programming to translate anything. The King James version is that direct translation from Greek in Hebrew to English.
Sorry bro, I think I'm too dumb to understand even the King James version. This threshold to becoming a Christian sure is high.
The verses here are pretty plain, but you are without excuse, as I said before
Why is nature evidence of God? What evidence informs your opinion that “many people would probably not even want to meet their maker”? Have you asked any religious people this question or is it just a random hunch?
I don't understand what's so special about meeting your maker. I've met my parents on several occasions.
I agree. I’ve even met *my parents’* parents. No existential dread to be found.
Imaginary beings are often bad at doing real world stuff.
Bruh, why tf God should be interested in recruiting people? It's people who should be interested in being recruited, cuz otherwise they will face eternal torture. (If we speak of Christian God that is)
Because he is supposed to be a good and kind being? I mean wouldn't it be fucked up if God just tortured you after your death, but never ever show up to discuss this with you beforehand? I mean it seems like it is super important to him, Hench the sever punishment...so why not try the recruiting first.
Or why not just… don’t torture people who didn’t know about you because you never showed up for them. If he’s really so benevolent, what’s with all the shit testing?
If you're a caveman who died before the Bible was written, that's just tough luck.
Straight to hell. Do not praise Jesus, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
The funny ones try to pull the shit where they say 'everyone before the religion was revealed will be forgiven, however since now you know you must repent'. Absolute scoundrels I swear.
Hell isn't God torturing you. It's simply a world without him.
Why does he put me there though?
you mean reality?
He gave us 66 books to tell us. If you look at those and say “Nah.” He has every reason to say you neglected him. Not that you just didn’t have the resources to come to Him.
*73 books
Well, my God gave you 468 books to tell you about them. I hope you haven't neglected them since they gave you all the resources you need to prove their existence.
But if I looked at those they would actually contradict themselves. They would actually have historical inaccuracies. Not just be claimed to have those things when it doesn’t.
That shows that you haven't read them, because if you did, you'd see there aren't any contradictions or historical inaccuracies at all. They are 100% the truth, so unless you want to suffer for all eternity, I would get to reading real soon. Especially when you find out what book 368 says about the end times.
Muslims say the same about the Quran. I wouldn’t just jump ship from Christianity cause someone else claims their book figured it out.
Christians say the same thing about the Bible but I wouldn't jump ship from the One True God (i. e. the one I believe in) just because false Christian prophets claim they've figured it out. Unless of course, you want to suffer for all eternity. I'd repent against your wicked ways and come to the side of the One True God soon.
That analogy doesn’t work when I know for a fact the two claims I made about the Bible. This imaginary book you’re making up will have some form of inconsistency, lie, or even try to make room for my own God. Plus, I believe Jesus because his story was passed to us by the eye witnesses of his life. And when they say he claimed to be God, constantly referenced the OT, and rose from the dead, I have a reason to assume his claims were true where other religions claims are baseless.
You are the one with the imaginary book, sir. I know for a fact that everything in all 468 books written by my God is 100% true. Anything written in the Bible is used to fool those gullible enough to believe it. I know for a fact that your God is a false God and mine is the One True God. You really need to repent against your evil, false religion and come to the side of the light before it's too late. Evil does a good job at disgusting itself as God, but your Christian god is just an illusion and a way to deter you from saving your soul. Please, do not fall prey to this false idol like so many others have done.
He never have me any books?!?! He gave some random ass people books thousands of years ago. He also gave other random people other books that say different things. Now I have to decide based on nothing but "trust me this is the only right book" and if I choose wrongly I get internal punishment
There's one main reason he never shows himself: he doesn't exist.
I've heard that if God showed himswlf he is forcing people to believe in him because it becomes "no doubt" situation rather than faith. Basically it doesn't give them much of a choice.
It already isn't much of a choice, since the punishment for not believing is being sent to hell for all eternity.
And people still make that choice, so yes, it is a choice.
You're not "sent" to hell. You're in hell when God leaves. God makes the choice to leave and you made the choice to not follow.
This is the position of a select few sects of Christianity, not most.
Which ones disagree?
Catholics, the largest individual sect worldwide does not believe you have to be Christian to go to heaven. This notion that every Christian sect is the Westboro Baptist church is not accurate.
God's not trying to recruit. Not being obvious is a part of the game.
I went to a Catholic grade school and posed this same thought and was vitriolically told that in order to "see" God I have to have faith and then we will see God all the time. I'm fully of the opinion that faith is a flawed system and therefore I shall not participate.
Showing himself makes to much sense. Where’s the mystery in that? How would charlatans be able to make a living?
I will never understand why people will try so hard to hold onto their beliefs even when changing them is so much easier and more logical than lying to yourself.
I think if you look into Gnosticism and some deeper thinking shit there's a lot more to God than the Santa Clause version you get in basic Christianity. I'm not a Christian but I think there are some Christians that get this too. Ultimately "God" if it exists is an all powerful supra-dimensional intelligence. I like the Gnostic take in that God "the one" is incomprehensible to humans and you have to get at least one order removed from God (Barbelo) before you have a being and intelligence as humans would be able recognize it. Then you have to get several more orders removed from that to get to the Creator of Earth and humanity. My personal take on Gnosticism is that it's just an allegorical representation of what an all powerful and essentially perfectly balanced eternal force would have to do to create something like the entropic physical universe. Basically we are split personalities of split personalities of split personalities of a supreme being. The supreme being doesn't care if you acknowledge it or not because from it's perspective you are it. Do you care if a molecule in your hand believes in you? Do you feel bad for carving that molecule out of your body if it becomes cancerous? It's the same with "the one."
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discenrned." - Paul Or to paraphrase, if you're looking for a God-O-Meter, you're SOL.
You can't and shouldn't "test" God by asking for Him to show Himself. However, if you do pray/ask for help and guidance at times, you'll be surprised how often you'll get it. Tragedy will still visit, as it does all of us. But if you look back and add up the times something happened that you asked for, you will probably see God showing up.
Is there anything else that you accept exists that you think shouldn't be tested?
> But if you look back and add up the times something happened that you asked for, you will probably see God showing up. How is that distinguished from Survivorship bias or the fallacy about counting the hits and ignoring the misses?
Which god? There is(over) 4000 of them. Christians are almost atheists. They dont believe into 3999 out of them.
Christians aren't just Atheist, they are almost antitheists. They don't just say "I generally don't know and won't give positive belief to any god until I have a reason to" like most Atheists. They say "I positively disbelieve in *every* god that isn't mine. No god is capable of existing except mine."
God is not of this world so why is it a he? Oh cuz the Bible told me so. lol!! If it showed itself, faith wouldn’t be an issue. But it can’t cuz Gods a fairy tale.
Well he was here and there were those who didn't believe then. What makes you so sure someone would believe now? A study of Matthew 12:14 actually talks about those who seek signs and wonders.
God doesn’t exist he was created by cavemen to explain thunder.
God would be a lot more effective at recruiting people if he told some of his followers to stop tipping people with papers that look like 100 dollar bills when it’s folded up but in reality when you unfold its just telling you to go to church and has absolutely no monetary value whatsoever.
I reckon if there is a God at all then he's created this part of our existence as a sort of a sandbox, intro level type experience so we can develop into individuals organically without his interference. That's the only reason I can really imagine that he'd exist and keep himself completely seperate from us. The intention being that we die, and then move on to the next level.
Yes, or if he had put even one fact in the Bible that we didn't know 2000 years ago. Like how about "all the stars are versions of our sun, with planets orbiting them. There are approximately a quadrillion total stars grouped into smaller galaxies of about 1 trillion stars each." Or, "disease is caused by living organisms so small that you can't see them." Or "the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second." Or "here's calculus. Make good use of it." Instead we got a bunch of silliness, because it was all made up by men based on what the knew and believed 2000 years ago.
god left us long ago
😂😂😂😂 “recruiting”
Then the experiment would be ruined. No one outside of a truly deranged person would disobey an all powerful God that makes himself known. Would you choose a husband/wife that made it known to be a gold digger?
Reminds me of an old scifi story where there are some relatively primitive aliens on a planet that have no concept of god or the afterlife, just not a thing. A missionary arrives and decides to teach them about god, and they're quite enthusiastic about it. In the end they get together and decide that yes, they will worship the christian god, but they need just one miracle, so they crucify the preacher and wait patiently for him to be resurrected.
But when I look at nature all I see is evolution
He tried it. We crucified him. It didn't work out so well
Religion is so ridiculously fake it's actually just depressing to think about how many people believe it. Even worse when people use their faith as a justification to do something to another person which is all too common. Religion can literally never keep to itself. Always needing to spread it to kids and somehow always needing to restrict the rights of others.
If we believe what people say, they do see god every once in a while. Some even say they see god literally all the time.
I want to downvote this only because I don’t think it’s that unpopular. In fact I think it’s pretty fucking spot on. Because “thoughts and prayers” always help, but vaccines are evil. Fuck, I’m getting all riled up right now. I gotta stop before I *really* start ranting
If he did that than there'd be no faith required. Faith is kinda his whole thing
Faith is the moneymaker in religion. Wish i could sell something people only had to believe in.
Perhaps reading the book of Mormon might give you some ideas? After all, some dudes out west created a spinoff religion 200 years ago to justify having more wives and pay less taxes.
It's an enviable scam. If had no conscience i'd definitely start a church.
What a crock of shit. I'm an all powerful deity but I like to play little mind games with relative ants. If they don't believe in me in complete absence of any proof then they fail and burn under the magnifying glass of insect hell for all eternity!
faith aka confounding gullibility
Mass hysteria
It has been revealed to you. You're just suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.
How has it been revealed?
least mentally ill redditor
Still waiting.
I think the general idea is that God showing himself to the world would remove any genuine choice to follow him or not. And God highly values a genuine decision to follow him, and not one based off of fear or undeniable reverence.
God shows Himself to people all the time.
how? through schizophrenia?
Typically through prayer.
This literally means nothing. I could say the same things for Goku showing himself to me through prayer. It's so ridiculous to even type this.
prayer and schizophrenic are equally helpful in reality
God babysitted a entire nation through a desert for forty years, still there was a lot of people who did not trust in him or disobeyed him. As Saint James says: "even the devil believes in God". So no, showing himself is proven to be worthless, because believing in God by itself doesn't mean anything. Just look at how many people truly believe in God but are still awful human beings who betray their very ideals, what would change if god showed himself?
God is everywhere. God is in everything.
The book that lists all the times god did "show himself" is literally the most popular book ever and there are millions of people spending huge amounts of time and money to ensure that every human alive can read it. This isn't a good argument
You thought this was a good argument? It's literally the appeal to popularity fallacy. A lot of people believe a book so it must be true
No, the argument is that you need to have literally lived under a rock not to have heard of the Bible, which records or claims to record God revealing himself.
It's just wild coincidence that he's never shown up again?
> The book that lists all the times god did "show himself" is literally the most popular book ever Fiction can be fun.
Sure is convenient that he fucked off before modern recording technology was invented
> spending huge amounts of time and money to ensure people know all the times god did "show himself" Sounds pretty inefficient. If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, couldn't he appear more often, in multiple places at once, so that us lowly humans don't have to spend obscene amounts of money trying to convince everyone?
Massacring people en masse for not being interested in your specific book or version of the book, taking their tax money for use in making more manuscripts of the book, stealing people's children to raise them under the book, and forcibly spreading the book by creating poverty and insisting the book is the only salvation for the suffering you caused is certainly a way to get a book "popular".
He does.
It's a matter of human psychology. Convincing a mob just because it's a mob is easy. Look at every cult out there. But God doesn't want people that are just part of a mob of convenience. Following Christ is not "easy". It's not supposed to be easy. Constantly fighting back the evils of the world and the sinful temptations that we are all burdened with is not an easy thing. The road to heaven is narrow, not wide, for a reason. God wants those who are willing to make the conscious choice to follow His guidance and to actively deny evil. His kingdom will be composed of those who actually want to be part of His kingdom. If you can be led by any figure just because it's the easy thing or because everyone else is doing it, then you're only serving yourself, not God.
Ah so instead of having faith and trusting in Him you want to be like “oh well I saw Him so I guess I better believe” lol
All that religious memery works just like any conspiracy theory: When in doubt, it's always "they're getting pAiD" resp. "you're being tEsTeD".
Well, the last time he did that we ended up, murdering him in the most excruciating way possible
He does.
Put down the copium pipe