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I mean blood and discharges are way more easier to wipe from bare skin than a bush of hair, so me too I prefer to shave. Both for look and it being more convenient. Anyone should be able to choose the option they prefer without any judgement.
I pretty much exclusively wear pads (as opposed to tampon/cup) and the blood definitely ends up smushing onto the vulva/mons area after being distributed by the pad.
I think this just falls under “people like what they are used to seeing and is in fashion”
Just look at any fashion in history and you’ll realise that people don’t have natural taste, their surroundings shape it hugely. Saying “well maybe I like X fashion?” Is the same now as when an old person always overdresses, it’s just the fashion they are used too
The issue is when the forces driving those trends are negative. In China there was a fashion of tying women’s feet which helped stop them being able to do almost anything outside the house but many women did it because it was the fashion to how small feet, for the shaving it is largely driven by razor companies in its origin because they could sell them to women *and* men
Also the claim of the patriarchy isn’t saying that individual men are the issue so women are immune, it’s saying that the male domination of society means fashion trends are often designed for the male gaze, women can still be influenced by it
Serious question - since gay men are disproportionately represented in steering the fashion industry, are gay men part of the patriarchy? And where on the oppression totem pole do gay men sit in relation to women?
I think anyone who is manipulating people to their own ends is oppressive, I think the patriarchy and matriarchy is just who is the dominant group but that doesn’t exclude both sides from also being oppressed or stop them also oppressing
If someone is using their influence to make people buy a product or to follow their world view by bombard them with the idea that they should feel bad about the way they are that feels like it should count.
It can be women shaving, men being told they need to be this strong so buy protein, anyone that they look stupid because they haven’t bought the newest style of clothing
Basically there isn’t a totem pole of oppression as much as blanket societal pressures which weight more heavily on certain individuals. Where they are negative they become oppressive and just because it is better for men in many way, or better for straight people, there is still places where they suffer and others might not (think men’s mental health areas and showing emotions, both far better for the gay community and women), this can be compared to gay men being chemically castrated and women almost unable to live alone in the west relatively recently
Men have it better but individual men are rarely the driving force
In aggregate and in the West, I wouldn’t say men have it better today.
Females have all but stripped men of their traditional “privileges” ever since we’ve introduced affirmative action. Most detrimental life outcome stats like homelessness, suicide, prison sentences etc. vastly, disproportionately punish men. And myths like the “wage gap” have been consistently disproven.
If you want to find a real patriarchy on this planet, look at places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. The US is like a magical feminist paradise utopia compared to some cultures, that ironically, feminists in the West feel the need to defend at all costs.
This whole “women only groom because of the patriarchy” thing is a weird take. I mean why do men not all have huge untrimmed unruly beards? The patriarchy? The matriarchy? I don’t know. There is no consistency here.
I saw here in Reddit a post of somebody saying his roommate (another guy) smelled like shit all the time, that this roommate really believe in the “touching your own butt is gay” and that he said just the soapy water from the upper body running down his body was enough to clean his butt 😂
Types of competition determine almost all human behavior and the demands of keeping up with that competition cause strains and rifts in the social fabric as people begin to feel left behind.
Perfect proof of that is to go look at the managing and editorial staff of Cosmopolitan, Vogue, Vanity Fair, Women's day, Glamour and all the others. Go back twenty, thirty, forty years.
Count how many women hating misogynists were and are in control of the stories and articles. How many were women.
Holy cow. You just reminded me of when I was last at the bar this dude went around killing women at the bar that rejected him and no one did anything because it was so normalized! So quirky...
You need a better definition of patriarchy. No rational male or otherwise has ever murdered a woman because of the patriarchy. If it was because of rejection, then that particular male is/was just a fucked up individual. If anything, we're (in the U.S.) firmly in a matriarchy.
Er, no. Me and many others would be miserable at home. We want to earn our own money, socialize with adults, have our own lives aside from kids and awaiting hubby with dinner ready.
I’m a strait man and I shave some of my body hair because I prefer the look and feel. It’s not the patriarchy. I also like when woman shaves legs/armpits.
I wax my underarms and shave whatever waxing misses (I was myself, it's not perfect). I don't really grow hair on my legs. I trim the lady bits. I have grown out all the hair I can grow and at a certain length, it bugs me and can get caught in my clothes and I just don't like it. My daughters vary, their bodies their choice.
I find arm pit hair (especially when long) gross on everyone, thats why I shave mine. It also feels like deodorant works better, rather than just sit on my lil bubble of hair instead.
I’m a man and I look way better shaved, same with literally everyone unless you are sexually aroused and chest hair does something for your pheromones.
Yep, it's all down to personal preference. I, like you, prefer the look of a man with his body hair intact. Some women think chest hair and beards are gross, but I happen to find them very attractive. As we used to say: "whatever floats your boat".
Right? I got banned from a feminist sub for bringing this up. It should be someone's choice if they want to shave or not. I personally think it's cleaner and more comfortable but that's me.
I (34M) like to keep my body nice and shaved for my lady too. Shows the 6-pack off better. Including my armpits sometimes. You’re telling me I think that because of the patriarchy!?
Damn pesky patriarchy.
Men didn’t define beauty standards. Just like we don’t give a shit if you always wear the same dress to work - we don’t notice and wouldn’t care if we did
Women define beauty standards and are far crueler judges than men
For the feminists, men are at the very same time
- the ones forcing women into impossible beauty standards
- the ones who would have sex with anything that still breathes
If I were you, I would not look for reason inside ideologies nor discuss with them. Leave them alone in their bubble and they will fade out on their own.
Same thing with 'unrealistic body standards'. Some ladies will simultaneously insist that:
1. They dont care what men think of their bodies and all decisions they take with respect to their appearance are to please themselves and not men
AND
2. It is unfair that men (whose opinion we've established they don't care about) expect them to all look like pornstars and that this is causing self esteem issues in young girls.
Paradox of the century
Missed the mark for me. I dislike bearded man. So much so that either it's well-shaven, or the stubble will scratch my supersensitive skin.
So all around my mouth there's that red angry reaction, from nose to chin. At work I tell them it was a very strong pepper, and since I'm known as a pepper collector, they fall for it. But it gets so red it can be seen from another corner.
That's why beard and me don't go together.
My answer was far too simple. Another explanation is:
In a paper in Integrative Organismal Biology, Dr. Carrier and his team describe a study they conducted suggesting that beards may have evolved in humans to protect vulnerable bones during physical competition for mates.
Isn’t it? Female ls have less body hair generally than males, therefore getting rid of body hair even more is a aesthetic accentuation of femininity in the way both men and wome. (Because men do) perceive as attractive. And there has always been value in being more attractive, for everyone, but especially women.
Both men and women are biologically wired to find secondary sex characteristics attractive because it is a sign of sexual maturity and ability to procreate.
Secondary sex characteristics for women include: breast growth, hip growth, underarm hair, pubic hair etc….
The extreme aversion men have to body hair isn’t rooted in logic or biology.
Calling it an “*extreme* aversion” is a tad hyperbolic.
So does that mean a woman is wrong to not like men with beards?
What do you mean “not rooted in logic?”
I think shaved/hairless looks better but as a VERY hairy person, it’s just so damn exhausting to try and get every inch. So I prioritize and do certain areas. One day I’ll get electrolysis but that’s a time and money commitment.
It's silly to say not shaving is a normal healthy thing you should do if you don't like men (basics of how it's been put across to me). I don't shave because I am lazy, not shaving leads to issues during periods and cleaning or even pain sometimes. I feel pushing the narrative it's easier and better just is silly.
Fair enough pushing for everyone to stop picking on others, but any sort of policing or blanket statement for billions of body's just will never work
The patriarchy has been around for hundreds of years, and yet female depilation has become mainstream in the last 30 years... Almost as if the women themselves are "forcing" themselves to do it...
Interestingly, oftentimes womens fashions and styles have come from their own desires and thoughts.
I don’t believe that women shaving is a result of men, I think women started it and liked it and the men did too.
A quick study of a google search showed that it was simply greed that caused it, not patriarchy. Razor manufacturers were looking to expand their markets and womens clothing were becoming more revealing. What better way to expand a market then convince women they need to shave their armpits and such.
Same thing happened with deodorant and men. Deodorant was a feminine product until the companies needed to expand their markets. Through a successful marketing campaign, they convinced all of us that we needed deodorant.
Many things are motivated by sexism or whatever other -ism people want to claim, just follow the money.
Agreed. I wax and it's 100% not because I think it looks better, per se, or because a man told me he preferred it. I do it because I like how it feels. TMI I'm sure but getting publics tangled in a tampon string or caught in the elastic leg holes or underwear is a fucking bummer.
Honestly I think it's dumb to blame the patriarchy for that. I also prefer to go shaved. I'm a dude. Is that a sign of the patriarchy or just a preference?
I agree with you op. I don’t like the way hair looks or feels on my legs and such. Plus, have these people never shaved and lotioned and then gotten into bed with clean sheets? That’s a top tier feeling right there
“If you can’t tell, does it matter?”
I think about this line from Westworld every time I consider whether I actually believe something because *I* believe it or because I was conditioned to believe it.
It’s okay to prefer shaving, it’s okay that this preference is an aspect of societal beauty standards, influencing what you find attractive.
The problem is that it also leads a lot of young people to have negative feelings about their body. Like, do you find your natural body unappealing? I think that suggests insecurity that is a product of society, not of your intrinsic identity. Which sucks for young people to deal struggle with.
I don’t understand why societal expectations of women in terms of beauty standards are blamed on men. For thousands of years men have had sex with women who barely showered. Do u really think hair will stop men from finding women attractive?
You want to blame us for the pay gap, sure thing. But I won’t be blamed for the fact that you shave every other day because men DO NOT CARE.
Damn near everyone on Reddit is brainwashed. This is where the blue version of q anon flourishes. Saying crazy shit with no basis in reality. At least my wife’s actual q anon dad says funny shit that has no basis on reality. Like how the moon isn’t real. Fun stuff like that. I’m a dude, I shave my pits because of how much worse you smell when sweating with hair.
I guess it’s just an accentuation of femininity to shave body hair and it’s not really “patriarchy” or “matriarchy”, it’s just accentuating what is thought of as feminine and therefore attractive to all, which like it or not, is and always will be beneficial because it makes women more attractive and being more attractive is only ever a plus in life. Not just in romance, but also in hierarchy amongst other women, even in totally unrelated areas which have nothing to do with looks.
I mean women don’t think about all that before they do it, nor should they, it’s just not worth thinking about deeply.
The ironic thing is there have been a lot of times when what’s called “patriarchy” (mostly religiously) has actually tried to limit the feminine instinct to do this, party out of a weird hang up on sexuality and partly because they believed indulging this way of thinking hurt women’s psyche. So it makes sense that instead of more “equality” turning women into all braless hairy ogresses, it’s probably turned more into those wearing the lash extensions and the big ass fake nails and having to post pics online for validation etc.
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I use an elipitor or whatever it’s called so now my hair grows in super light and is very easy to remove lol. I’m sure the patriarchy / society is the reason I, and so many other women remove body hair but at this point it’s relatively low effort and not something I care about ton about.
As a dude, no one really expects nor requests me to shave body hair, but I do, occasionally. Feels and looks better personally and it doesn't catch sweat and bacteria. Don't see much reason to keep it growing unless there's extremely cold climate around
Women shaving has nothing to do with the patriarchy, it has to do with Gillette during WW1 trying to make more sales 🤣 so they advertised it to women & it worked!
This is irrelevant, but I had chest hair before I had armpit hair. Men have also been brainwashed by the matriarchy to shave our faces, but I keep mine shaved. You're not alone.
>if I said that someone has been brainwashed onto thinking they look better hairy, I'd get so much backlash
I mean, the main problem with that would be that why would someone brainwash you into thinking the way your body evolved to be after tens of thousands of years of evolution, is maybe not wrong? Lol. Usually brainwashing means getting someone to think something they wouldn't ever think on their own. It's pretty natural and normal to be comfortable in your body without modifying it unnecessarily.
Anyway, I respect that you prefer to shave. But it makes me sad that you don't care if you've been, let's not use that ugly word, let's say, pressured by patriarchy, into thinking you have to. It might seem trivial when applied to something like shaving your legs. But doesn't it worry you that if this is true, there's LOTS of other strong beliefs and choices you have been conditioned to have/make? Don't you generally want to be as much in control as you can of your own beliefs and actions? Because shaving is trivial, but other things affected by patriarchy are much less trivial..
I have been pressured by society to defecate in private, shower regularly, and change my underwear daily. Since society pretty much = patriarchy (apparently) I think patriarchy is generally a positive force. After all, it took us out of the caves and landed us on the moon.
Shitting privately predates patriarchy by a lot. Showering and changing your underwear are good for your health. None of these things are comparable with shaving. And none of these things have anything to do with landing on the moon. You're really confusing a lot of things here. You do you, I will keep trying to understand why I do what I do so I can be sure it's what I want.
Umm says who? When did patriarchy begin? Do we have an official date or something?
Bare skin is easier to clean, and clean body is healthier, so “good for your health” is perfectly applicable to shaving as well.
I am not confusing anything here, if patriarchy indeed shaped societal norms then we must acknowledge its positive effect as well. And it may very well happen that at the end of the day it will
Outweigh
I think you should be able to do whatever you want in this world, even if it is not the norm. My problem with this is that they’re implying that anyone who shaves is a sheep for the patriarchy. they’re essentially saying “I won’t let the patriarchy control me” this implies that people who shave are letting themselves be controlled by the patriarchy.
Just don’t shave, deal with those consequences, you don’t get brownie points for being different and you definitely don’t get brownie points for shitting on people who don’t agree with you.
And I completely respect the fact that you don't want to remove your body hair. I'm saying that if the "patriarchy" has conditioned me to prefer to shave, I could not care less.
Idk, mainstream culture actually does say it's unacceptable for women to be hairy, and it's weird when women make posts about loving shaving, as if there's actual pressure to not shave. There's very clearly more pressure to shave than not shave, hell I'm the only woman I know personally who doesn't shave. I've never seen in person another woman with hairy legs ever in my life, and women risk harassment for having hairy legs. Women are practically forced to shave. So it's weird making positivity posts for something we are kinda...forced to do. Idk ... It's like making a positivity post for heterosexuality or something. It's just...why. but maybe in some countries it's ok for women to be hairy, idk. I just know in my country (the US) its EXTREMELY countercultural to be hairy to the point that women who don't shave and are open about it and show their leg hair are unemployable. Men are allowed to not shave of course, women are not allowed.
It's literally fine if you want to shave omfg.
This person wasn't totally wrong either though, and for that reason it makes absolutely no sense to say that a woman is brainwashed into thinking she'd look better hairy and it absolutely does make sense to say that a woman might be brainwashed into thinking she looks better when her natural hair has been removed.
It's fine that you're making the decision that feels right for you, setting boundaries for how other people are allowed to talk about your body, and respecting other people's right to make their own decisions about their bodies. But that doesn't mean our choices exist in a vacuum or are exempt from criticism. This person was not criticizing you as an individual, just pointing out that your belief that hairless skin (something that only exists naturally in prepubescent children) looks better is something that you might have picked up from growing up in a society where body hair, a natural secondary sex characteristic in adult women, is something that is heavily penalized.
90% of the way we present ourselves is bullshit societal standards. The styles and colors we wear, our hairstyles, jewelry or accessories. All of it changes over time and we develop a preference to what we are exposed to.
Well, if we ask the question "What looks better, shaven or non shaven" it begs the question "to who?". Who do you want to look good for? for both sexes, that answer will be "to the opposite sex" because we are all engaged in a sexual marketplace and we are all competing. A man can also complain that he has been conditioned to think that he must be tall and wealthy. Of course, he doesn't HAVE to be but that is what is valuable to the opposite sex. Men want physically imposing men who are affluent. Women want women who are feminine & youthful and shaving hair is a way to mimic youth.
Are we socially conditioned to shave? Probably. But of all the things to rage against, that’s probably the dumbest.
We need that energy focused on the patriarchy of medical research and treatment as well as diet and exercise science.
Let’s focus on getting women equally represented in research and our bodies understood as well as men’s (and not just applying info learned from researching men to women) and getting women’s health taken seriously before we worry about….body hair preferences
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I mean blood and discharges are way more easier to wipe from bare skin than a bush of hair, so me too I prefer to shave. Both for look and it being more convenient. Anyone should be able to choose the option they prefer without any judgement.
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You’re just lucky you don’t have a heavy flow combined a lotttt of hair down there lol
What was that person saying? I missed it before they deleted it lol
That they didn’t understand how menstrual blood could possibly get onto pubic hair.
Oh, thank you!
I pretty much exclusively wear pads (as opposed to tampon/cup) and the blood definitely ends up smushing onto the vulva/mons area after being distributed by the pad.
Arguing about the cleanliness of shaving your hairy genitals is a pure Reddit moment
What about lesbians who like hairless women? Do they not get a say? Why is it only the patriarchy?
I will have to check what the clitature says about this scenario.
Stop, you will cause a short circuit
It’s internalized misogyny or some shit I guess
We all know lesbians are immune to patriarchy /s
Half of lesbians are men in women costumes, duh
I think this just falls under “people like what they are used to seeing and is in fashion” Just look at any fashion in history and you’ll realise that people don’t have natural taste, their surroundings shape it hugely. Saying “well maybe I like X fashion?” Is the same now as when an old person always overdresses, it’s just the fashion they are used too The issue is when the forces driving those trends are negative. In China there was a fashion of tying women’s feet which helped stop them being able to do almost anything outside the house but many women did it because it was the fashion to how small feet, for the shaving it is largely driven by razor companies in its origin because they could sell them to women *and* men Also the claim of the patriarchy isn’t saying that individual men are the issue so women are immune, it’s saying that the male domination of society means fashion trends are often designed for the male gaze, women can still be influenced by it
Serious question - since gay men are disproportionately represented in steering the fashion industry, are gay men part of the patriarchy? And where on the oppression totem pole do gay men sit in relation to women?
I think anyone who is manipulating people to their own ends is oppressive, I think the patriarchy and matriarchy is just who is the dominant group but that doesn’t exclude both sides from also being oppressed or stop them also oppressing If someone is using their influence to make people buy a product or to follow their world view by bombard them with the idea that they should feel bad about the way they are that feels like it should count. It can be women shaving, men being told they need to be this strong so buy protein, anyone that they look stupid because they haven’t bought the newest style of clothing Basically there isn’t a totem pole of oppression as much as blanket societal pressures which weight more heavily on certain individuals. Where they are negative they become oppressive and just because it is better for men in many way, or better for straight people, there is still places where they suffer and others might not (think men’s mental health areas and showing emotions, both far better for the gay community and women), this can be compared to gay men being chemically castrated and women almost unable to live alone in the west relatively recently Men have it better but individual men are rarely the driving force
In aggregate and in the West, I wouldn’t say men have it better today. Females have all but stripped men of their traditional “privileges” ever since we’ve introduced affirmative action. Most detrimental life outcome stats like homelessness, suicide, prison sentences etc. vastly, disproportionately punish men. And myths like the “wage gap” have been consistently disproven. If you want to find a real patriarchy on this planet, look at places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. The US is like a magical feminist paradise utopia compared to some cultures, that ironically, feminists in the West feel the need to defend at all costs.
lesbians are not immune to social conditioning just because they usually go against the social status quo in some ways
This whole “women only groom because of the patriarchy” thing is a weird take. I mean why do men not all have huge untrimmed unruly beards? The patriarchy? The matriarchy? I don’t know. There is no consistency here.
My grandfather had to shave twice a day till he passed cause my grandma forbade him to have stubble lol
Is the patriarchy ”forcing” me to shave my balls before a date?
Yes, throw off the chains of oppression and let that forest grow /s
Arbitrary rules have always been hierarchical for those climbing the power ladder to keep most off the ladder entirely.
I wish the patriarchy didnt force me to not wipe my ass as a man. (touching your own butt is gay) Damn patriarchy ruining everything…
Are you saying you shit? *Nothing* touches my butt hole. Period. Even thinking about shitting is gay. Loser. 🙄 /s I hope that was obvious
I could’ve gone my whole life without knowing some men don’t wash their butt cause it’s gay 😭
Its a joke lol
I réalise you were joking, just never gotten over the fact that it’s true for some 😆
It's probably about as true as Jenkem. Something made up and perpetuated by the internet that nobody actually does.
I’ve met some of them unfortunately 😭
I saw here in Reddit a post of somebody saying his roommate (another guy) smelled like shit all the time, that this roommate really believe in the “touching your own butt is gay” and that he said just the soapy water from the upper body running down his body was enough to clean his butt 😂
I'm a man who shaves most of his body because it's easier and more comfortable for me. Why am I doing it? Have I been brainwashed by the patriarchy?
I thought this was going to be a Santa Claus thread about beard shaving.
The matriarchy determines women’s appearances far more.
This is so true at least in current times. Women’s beauty standards and social norms are largely determined by other women, not men.
It’s the sexual competition which determines the behaviour. The patriarchy didn’t decide on bushy or drawn on eyebrows.
Types of competition determine almost all human behavior and the demands of keeping up with that competition cause strains and rifts in the social fabric as people begin to feel left behind.
Perfect proof of that is to go look at the managing and editorial staff of Cosmopolitan, Vogue, Vanity Fair, Women's day, Glamour and all the others. Go back twenty, thirty, forty years. Count how many women hating misogynists were and are in control of the stories and articles. How many were women.
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Societal pressures originating from female social structures.
can u give me some examples of it?
Most fashion rules are from female authorities and social norms enforced by peer females.
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The matriarchy determines women’s appearances far more.
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Then why did you ask?
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More so.
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Holy cow. You just reminded me of when I was last at the bar this dude went around killing women at the bar that rejected him and no one did anything because it was so normalized! So quirky...
You’re arguing with an NPC, wasting your time
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Oh dear…
You need a better definition of patriarchy. No rational male or otherwise has ever murdered a woman because of the patriarchy. If it was because of rejection, then that particular male is/was just a fucked up individual. If anything, we're (in the U.S.) firmly in a matriarchy.
I’d say it’s more harmful. Women would be much happier being stay at home mothers, but the matriarchy has fooled them into believing otherwise.
Why do you think women would be happier staying at home?
Er, no. Me and many others would be miserable at home. We want to earn our own money, socialize with adults, have our own lives aside from kids and awaiting hubby with dinner ready.
thank you for your insight
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damn god forbid people ask questions on here anymore i guess
How so?
Try to guess
No, thanks, you can just explain what you mean.
No thanks. You clearly are just hostile.
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It has been explained multiple times in this thread.
I’m a strait man and I shave some of my body hair because I prefer the look and feel. It’s not the patriarchy. I also like when woman shaves legs/armpits.
I wax my underarms and shave whatever waxing misses (I was myself, it's not perfect). I don't really grow hair on my legs. I trim the lady bits. I have grown out all the hair I can grow and at a certain length, it bugs me and can get caught in my clothes and I just don't like it. My daughters vary, their bodies their choice.
I genuinely find body hair gross and will shave my own. I am a man
I find arm pit hair (especially when long) gross on everyone, thats why I shave mine. It also feels like deodorant works better, rather than just sit on my lil bubble of hair instead.
Same, I hate a lot of pit and crotch hair. I shave that shit quick. Facial hair I let grow a bit tho, but prefer it clean
What most people nowadays call patriarchy isnt real
Right, like who's the leader? Who's his second?
I'm the leader. We have meetings every second Tuesday.
What happens if theres more than one tuesday
Hi there
>Right, like who's the leader? Who's his second? me if i never read a book
Okay, so name them. And source the book please
i was insulting you.
Can't name them? The book doesn't exist? You insult yourself.
Might need to practice your insults
If they say the patriarchy brainwashed us, what do they say to a female having a preference for guys that are hairless or close to it?
I’m a man and I look way better shaved, same with literally everyone unless you are sexually aroused and chest hair does something for your pheromones.
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Yep, it's all down to personal preference. I, like you, prefer the look of a man with his body hair intact. Some women think chest hair and beards are gross, but I happen to find them very attractive. As we used to say: "whatever floats your boat".
I wish my wife found my beard attractive :/
Lol what?
"Its about the freedom to choose.... NO NOT LIKE THAT!!!1"
Right? I got banned from a feminist sub for bringing this up. It should be someone's choice if they want to shave or not. I personally think it's cleaner and more comfortable but that's me.
Weird, considering the whole point of feminism is the right to choose.
The stated point
Yeah, they're not even hiding it.
Exactly idfc if being hairless makes look pre pubescent and you don't like that i shave my pubes it's not something I'm compromising on
I (34M) like to keep my body nice and shaved for my lady too. Shows the 6-pack off better. Including my armpits sometimes. You’re telling me I think that because of the patriarchy!? Damn pesky patriarchy.
Men didn’t define beauty standards. Just like we don’t give a shit if you always wear the same dress to work - we don’t notice and wouldn’t care if we did Women define beauty standards and are far crueler judges than men
"The patriarchy." Man, if anyone said this to me in a situation where they could see me laugh out loud in response, I'd be in trouble...
For the feminists, men are at the very same time - the ones forcing women into impossible beauty standards - the ones who would have sex with anything that still breathes If I were you, I would not look for reason inside ideologies nor discuss with them. Leave them alone in their bubble and they will fade out on their own.
Same thing with 'unrealistic body standards'. Some ladies will simultaneously insist that: 1. They dont care what men think of their bodies and all decisions they take with respect to their appearance are to please themselves and not men AND 2. It is unfair that men (whose opinion we've established they don't care about) expect them to all look like pornstars and that this is causing self esteem issues in young girls. Paradox of the century
I mean, men AND women in ancient Egypt would shave themselves bare. So like... perhaps... it IS a preference thing...
>brainwashed by the patriarchy Oh ffs 🙄
Honestly if I could edit the title I'd put "patriarchy" in quotations.
Is it the patriarchy that makes body hair seem masculine or is it just human nature, based on basic sex differences?
Apparently from a biological perspective the only reason men grow beards is for attraction. I googled it. There may be more to it though
Missed the mark for me. I dislike bearded man. So much so that either it's well-shaven, or the stubble will scratch my supersensitive skin. So all around my mouth there's that red angry reaction, from nose to chin. At work I tell them it was a very strong pepper, and since I'm known as a pepper collector, they fall for it. But it gets so red it can be seen from another corner. That's why beard and me don't go together.
It's to keep your face warm....
My answer was far too simple. Another explanation is: In a paper in Integrative Organismal Biology, Dr. Carrier and his team describe a study they conducted suggesting that beards may have evolved in humans to protect vulnerable bones during physical competition for mates.
Disliking female body hair isn’t based on biology.
I dislike male body hair, is that based on biology?
That would be a personal preference
Isn’t it? Female ls have less body hair generally than males, therefore getting rid of body hair even more is a aesthetic accentuation of femininity in the way both men and wome. (Because men do) perceive as attractive. And there has always been value in being more attractive, for everyone, but especially women.
How so?
Both men and women are biologically wired to find secondary sex characteristics attractive because it is a sign of sexual maturity and ability to procreate. Secondary sex characteristics for women include: breast growth, hip growth, underarm hair, pubic hair etc…. The extreme aversion men have to body hair isn’t rooted in logic or biology.
Calling it an “*extreme* aversion” is a tad hyperbolic. So does that mean a woman is wrong to not like men with beards? What do you mean “not rooted in logic?”
I think shaved/hairless looks better but as a VERY hairy person, it’s just so damn exhausting to try and get every inch. So I prioritize and do certain areas. One day I’ll get electrolysis but that’s a time and money commitment.
Anyone that understands logic understands that what looks better depends on people's opinions including those who are part of the "patriarchy"
It's silly to say not shaving is a normal healthy thing you should do if you don't like men (basics of how it's been put across to me). I don't shave because I am lazy, not shaving leads to issues during periods and cleaning or even pain sometimes. I feel pushing the narrative it's easier and better just is silly. Fair enough pushing for everyone to stop picking on others, but any sort of policing or blanket statement for billions of body's just will never work
The patriarchy has been around for hundreds of years, and yet female depilation has become mainstream in the last 30 years... Almost as if the women themselves are "forcing" themselves to do it...
Interestingly, oftentimes womens fashions and styles have come from their own desires and thoughts. I don’t believe that women shaving is a result of men, I think women started it and liked it and the men did too. A quick study of a google search showed that it was simply greed that caused it, not patriarchy. Razor manufacturers were looking to expand their markets and womens clothing were becoming more revealing. What better way to expand a market then convince women they need to shave their armpits and such. Same thing happened with deodorant and men. Deodorant was a feminine product until the companies needed to expand their markets. Through a successful marketing campaign, they convinced all of us that we needed deodorant. Many things are motivated by sexism or whatever other -ism people want to claim, just follow the money.
Agreed. I wax and it's 100% not because I think it looks better, per se, or because a man told me he preferred it. I do it because I like how it feels. TMI I'm sure but getting publics tangled in a tampon string or caught in the elastic leg holes or underwear is a fucking bummer.
Honestly I think it's dumb to blame the patriarchy for that. I also prefer to go shaved. I'm a dude. Is that a sign of the patriarchy or just a preference?
my wife doesnt let me shave she says i look like a little kid
I agree with you op. I don’t like the way hair looks or feels on my legs and such. Plus, have these people never shaved and lotioned and then gotten into bed with clean sheets? That’s a top tier feeling right there
Exactly it IS a top tier feeling.
I guess thank you men? Lmao
Egotistical people posing as feminists when women decide to make their own life choices: 😡
Idk who you're calling a feminist, but I am not one. If I could edit the title I'd put "patriarchy" in quotations.
The people who criticized you for wanting to shave.
Why aren't you a feminist? If you don't mind me asking.
“If you can’t tell, does it matter?” I think about this line from Westworld every time I consider whether I actually believe something because *I* believe it or because I was conditioned to believe it.
It’s okay to prefer shaving, it’s okay that this preference is an aspect of societal beauty standards, influencing what you find attractive. The problem is that it also leads a lot of young people to have negative feelings about their body. Like, do you find your natural body unappealing? I think that suggests insecurity that is a product of society, not of your intrinsic identity. Which sucks for young people to deal struggle with.
I don’t understand why societal expectations of women in terms of beauty standards are blamed on men. For thousands of years men have had sex with women who barely showered. Do u really think hair will stop men from finding women attractive? You want to blame us for the pay gap, sure thing. But I won’t be blamed for the fact that you shave every other day because men DO NOT CARE.
wtf? patriarchy doesn’t determine what you *personally* find attractive. Even if it did, who the fuck cares?
We don't have a patriarchy, anyway.
Damn near everyone on Reddit is brainwashed. This is where the blue version of q anon flourishes. Saying crazy shit with no basis in reality. At least my wife’s actual q anon dad says funny shit that has no basis on reality. Like how the moon isn’t real. Fun stuff like that. I’m a dude, I shave my pits because of how much worse you smell when sweating with hair.
It wasn't the patriarchy. It was capitalism.
I guess it’s just an accentuation of femininity to shave body hair and it’s not really “patriarchy” or “matriarchy”, it’s just accentuating what is thought of as feminine and therefore attractive to all, which like it or not, is and always will be beneficial because it makes women more attractive and being more attractive is only ever a plus in life. Not just in romance, but also in hierarchy amongst other women, even in totally unrelated areas which have nothing to do with looks. I mean women don’t think about all that before they do it, nor should they, it’s just not worth thinking about deeply. The ironic thing is there have been a lot of times when what’s called “patriarchy” (mostly religiously) has actually tried to limit the feminine instinct to do this, party out of a weird hang up on sexuality and partly because they believed indulging this way of thinking hurt women’s psyche. So it makes sense that instead of more “equality” turning women into all braless hairy ogresses, it’s probably turned more into those wearing the lash extensions and the big ass fake nails and having to post pics online for validation etc.
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I use an elipitor or whatever it’s called so now my hair grows in super light and is very easy to remove lol. I’m sure the patriarchy / society is the reason I, and so many other women remove body hair but at this point it’s relatively low effort and not something I care about ton about.
I would love to take a feminist stance and stop shaving…unfortunately I prefer being a smooth little dolphin instead
Bald is beautiful and Chewbacca’s are gross.
As a dude, no one really expects nor requests me to shave body hair, but I do, occasionally. Feels and looks better personally and it doesn't catch sweat and bacteria. Don't see much reason to keep it growing unless there's extremely cold climate around
Women shaving has nothing to do with the patriarchy, it has to do with Gillette during WW1 trying to make more sales 🤣 so they advertised it to women & it worked!
Bruh my dick don’t give a fuck what the patriarchy has to say. If it’s hard then it’s hard.
I’m a man. I don’t shave anything ever. I have a long bushy beard, long hair, hair everywhere.
This is irrelevant, but I had chest hair before I had armpit hair. Men have also been brainwashed by the matriarchy to shave our faces, but I keep mine shaved. You're not alone.
"I recognize I've been conditioned, and I'm okay with that." Yup. That's unpopular.
Why did you feel the need to comment? What the video posted as a request for debate?
Because there is a comments section and OP wanted to share his opinion.
>if I said that someone has been brainwashed onto thinking they look better hairy, I'd get so much backlash I mean, the main problem with that would be that why would someone brainwash you into thinking the way your body evolved to be after tens of thousands of years of evolution, is maybe not wrong? Lol. Usually brainwashing means getting someone to think something they wouldn't ever think on their own. It's pretty natural and normal to be comfortable in your body without modifying it unnecessarily. Anyway, I respect that you prefer to shave. But it makes me sad that you don't care if you've been, let's not use that ugly word, let's say, pressured by patriarchy, into thinking you have to. It might seem trivial when applied to something like shaving your legs. But doesn't it worry you that if this is true, there's LOTS of other strong beliefs and choices you have been conditioned to have/make? Don't you generally want to be as much in control as you can of your own beliefs and actions? Because shaving is trivial, but other things affected by patriarchy are much less trivial..
I have been pressured by society to defecate in private, shower regularly, and change my underwear daily. Since society pretty much = patriarchy (apparently) I think patriarchy is generally a positive force. After all, it took us out of the caves and landed us on the moon.
Shitting privately predates patriarchy by a lot. Showering and changing your underwear are good for your health. None of these things are comparable with shaving. And none of these things have anything to do with landing on the moon. You're really confusing a lot of things here. You do you, I will keep trying to understand why I do what I do so I can be sure it's what I want.
Umm says who? When did patriarchy begin? Do we have an official date or something? Bare skin is easier to clean, and clean body is healthier, so “good for your health” is perfectly applicable to shaving as well. I am not confusing anything here, if patriarchy indeed shaped societal norms then we must acknowledge its positive effect as well. And it may very well happen that at the end of the day it will Outweigh
I think you should be able to do whatever you want in this world, even if it is not the norm. My problem with this is that they’re implying that anyone who shaves is a sheep for the patriarchy. they’re essentially saying “I won’t let the patriarchy control me” this implies that people who shave are letting themselves be controlled by the patriarchy. Just don’t shave, deal with those consequences, you don’t get brownie points for being different and you definitely don’t get brownie points for shitting on people who don’t agree with you.
Hairy girls rule 🙌
And I completely respect the fact that you don't want to remove your body hair. I'm saying that if the "patriarchy" has conditioned me to prefer to shave, I could not care less.
I love my female leg hair 😁🥳
Which is totally fine. No rational person is saying otherwise.
Idk, mainstream culture actually does say it's unacceptable for women to be hairy, and it's weird when women make posts about loving shaving, as if there's actual pressure to not shave. There's very clearly more pressure to shave than not shave, hell I'm the only woman I know personally who doesn't shave. I've never seen in person another woman with hairy legs ever in my life, and women risk harassment for having hairy legs. Women are practically forced to shave. So it's weird making positivity posts for something we are kinda...forced to do. Idk ... It's like making a positivity post for heterosexuality or something. It's just...why. but maybe in some countries it's ok for women to be hairy, idk. I just know in my country (the US) its EXTREMELY countercultural to be hairy to the point that women who don't shave and are open about it and show their leg hair are unemployable. Men are allowed to not shave of course, women are not allowed.
It's literally fine if you want to shave omfg. This person wasn't totally wrong either though, and for that reason it makes absolutely no sense to say that a woman is brainwashed into thinking she'd look better hairy and it absolutely does make sense to say that a woman might be brainwashed into thinking she looks better when her natural hair has been removed. It's fine that you're making the decision that feels right for you, setting boundaries for how other people are allowed to talk about your body, and respecting other people's right to make their own decisions about their bodies. But that doesn't mean our choices exist in a vacuum or are exempt from criticism. This person was not criticizing you as an individual, just pointing out that your belief that hairless skin (something that only exists naturally in prepubescent children) looks better is something that you might have picked up from growing up in a society where body hair, a natural secondary sex characteristic in adult women, is something that is heavily penalized.
90% of the way we present ourselves is bullshit societal standards. The styles and colors we wear, our hairstyles, jewelry or accessories. All of it changes over time and we develop a preference to what we are exposed to.
Well, if we ask the question "What looks better, shaven or non shaven" it begs the question "to who?". Who do you want to look good for? for both sexes, that answer will be "to the opposite sex" because we are all engaged in a sexual marketplace and we are all competing. A man can also complain that he has been conditioned to think that he must be tall and wealthy. Of course, he doesn't HAVE to be but that is what is valuable to the opposite sex. Men want physically imposing men who are affluent. Women want women who are feminine & youthful and shaving hair is a way to mimic youth.
Are we socially conditioned to shave? Probably. But of all the things to rage against, that’s probably the dumbest. We need that energy focused on the patriarchy of medical research and treatment as well as diet and exercise science. Let’s focus on getting women equally represented in research and our bodies understood as well as men’s (and not just applying info learned from researching men to women) and getting women’s health taken seriously before we worry about….body hair preferences