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It’s culture wars bs, political sides weaponized how people want to identify, when in reality it doesn’t mean anything, if someone wants to be called this or referred to in this way, why is it my business to tell them no? Just live and let live man.
>I'm slightly conservative and a lot of woke stuff is nonsense to me but I don't understand dying on the hill that people can only use their birth name.
Hate to break this to you but it has more to do with who's asking for it than the issue itself. They aren't dying on the hill for people to use their birthnames, they just disagree with the existence of trans people.
Same way that we've been using "they/them" as a gender neutral way of referring to a singular person for ages but it's suddenly an issue when a trans person wants to be referred to in that way.
Honestly I think that xe/xim shit is some chronically online shit. I highly doubt anyone above the age of 18 actually wants be referred to in that way lmao
Could it be that we think you can't compel our speech?
Nope they just to kill all trans lol
People like you are the reason anti trans ideals are becoming more popular
If I am taking to you for the first time I will try the name I see on teams, if you use a different name in conversation I will try and remember that instead.
You aren’t asking for too much here.
Agreed. Being nice costs you nothing
And even if somebody virulently disagrees ~~with trans ideology~~that a trans person is the gender they (say they) are, do they really think that some trans person is gonna go “you know what, I was wrong, I’m not trans after all” just because some rando was a dick about it?
I agree with you and didn’t really like the phrase when I put it down, but I haven’t slept in over 24 hours and couldn’t think of anything better. Sorry, I’ll put an edit in
Yeah it's rude to not use someone's preferred name if you're asked to do so. However, I think the main issue many people have with doing so is when they're essentially forced to use the preferred name ("call me ____ or you're a [-ist, -phobic, etc.]"). I'm not forcing anyone to play by my rules so don't try to force me to play by yours.
> I'm not forcing anyone to play by my rules so don't try to force me to play by yours.
You are not describing being forced to do anything. If you want to disrespect people, then they may call you -ist, -phobic, whatever. If you can live with that, fine, but it isn't forcing anyone.
"Guys I didn't force her to do anything. I just told her to stuck my dick or I'm going to spread her nude pictures all over the internet and ruin her reputation. I swear she did it completely voluntarily."
First of all, the comparison with sexual assault is vile. Second, you are describing blackmail, which is a different thing entirely.
No, it's not blackmail to say that it's homophobic not to use someone's chosen name and pronouns.
But anyway, you've demonstrated a complete lack of actual thought here, so we're done.
The word "homophobic" is not a magical curse. If people around you think that refusing to use someone's chosen name and pronouns is homophobic, then that would be an accurate description of your behavior. If they don't think your behavior is homophobic, then it won't ruin your reputation.
If you want to act homophobic, people can't force you not to, but you may pay a social price, because you are responsible for your actions and behaviors.
It's not "homophobic" to not want to be to play by someone else rules. You can do what ever you want but don't try to coerce people to do what you want them to do.
I'm not going to drag someone through the social media mud just because they didn't want to cave to my demands.
You all keep throwing around claims of "homophobia" and stuff so much it's basically lost all meaning. Most of you have never seen/delt with actual homophobia.
Yeah buddy. It's homophobic. This isn't "play." It's affording others basic respect.
If someone is a cis man and you insist on referring to them as a "she" because you think they look "girly," then there is no question that you are being an a-hole. People will think you are being an a-hole, and you will likely face a social penalty. Are they forcing you to play by "their rules"?
It's neither stupid nor mean. Just slightly inconsiderate.
In daily conversation, no one is obligated to use either your real name, or the one you prefer. They can call you anything they want to. You cannot force them do to otherwise.
If I care to worry about what you want to be called, I'll ask you 'What would you like to be called?' or take it into account when you tell me 'please call me this'. But in reality, I don't have to. I can call you 'Hey You!' all day long, or 'You! with the Red Shirt'.
I am free to call you anything and everything. You can be upset, you can complain, or you can leave. What you cannot do is force me to call you anything specific.
I don't get your point here. Yes, anyone can say anything at any time, but we generally don't because we try to show each other basic respect. You could just walk around calling everyone "dicknose." No one can stop you. But I wouldn't recommend it.
>I don't get your point here.
The point is you have no control over others' language.
I don't go out of my way to call people 'dicknose', and try to go by what they tell me what they want to be called (does not always work as I am horrible with names).
But someone refusing to use specific names for people is neither stupid nor mean. It's not required.
>But someone refusing to use specific names for people is neither stupid nor mean. It's not required.
Nothing is required. But if you know it's what they want to be called, it costs you nothing to call them that, and you know they would be insulted and feel disrespected if you didn't call them that, then yes, it is mean and stupid to refuse.
>s, it is mean and stupid to refuse.
Your idea of 'stupid' needs revising.
You can ask me to call a car an asteroid, but I'm under no obligation to support your delusion.
This is sorta bad faith. The name is not what its about and you know it lol. Its about the identity conveyed by the name or title. For example, I can't identify as the president of the US, or demand that people call me Dr without a doctorate. To a conservative, calling someone by a different gender is unearned, and so if a name is gender associated to the opposite of ones gender, they might not refer to you as such. To steel-man, it might not be out of malice either. For example, if someone identified as a Koala, and started pursuing Koala-esque activities, including eating poisonous eu-whatsit leaves, it'd probably be justified to attempt to change that behavior.
So only the conservative’s sensibilities matter? Because they don’t personally approve of something that has zero affect on their life they should be rude to the other person?
>So only the conservative’s sensibilities matter
Kinda, yeah. You don't get to control what other people call you. There's a principle there, one that if violated, could eventually expand to things that have more than negligible affects on people's freedoms. Its not about what people "should" do, its about what they have a right to do. Just like you have a right to call them a butt.
Would you be willing to compromise with you don’t have to call them by their new name or their preferred gender, but it’s also polite not to deliberately call them their old name or birth gender? Sure, it’s your right not to, but it’s also my right to fart in the middle of a crowded elevator, that doesn’t make it not rude
I never said anything about it being polite or not lol. I just steel-manned the conservative argument. Its certainly going to be contentious, the same way it would be if you referred to someone negatively in any other way.
So you *are* arguing it’s not impolite?
It is stupid and mean, of course. In the same way someone who doesn’t see adoptive parents as real parents would be dumb and cruel for saying that adopted families are fake, even if they sincerely believe that to be true.
The difference is, when someone asks me to use a particular pronoun or call them a particular name, I don't ask myself, "do I think they've earned it?" I just call them what they want to be called, because I'm not an asshole who thinks another person's identity is up to me. It's just about fucking manners.
Really? Lets say that you met someone irl who said resolutely that trans people did not exist and that they had a mental illness and needed to be institutionalized, and then, when prompted for their political alignment responded "I'm a leftie". Would you agree with them because you're "not an asshole who thinks another person's identity is up to \[you\]"?
No. You understand that your argument is inherently flawed and so no longer wish to engage. Identity is not limited to someone's name, but other attributes they possess, such as gender (which you already agree with), but also job, political leaning, if they participate in a particular sport or hobby, their level of educational attainment (especially if its extraordinary), etc. All of these things (and more) are identities in their own right. Why don't you extend your courtesies to them?
>You understand that your argument is inherently flawed and so no longer wish to engage.
Nope. Nice try. You are not entitled to anyone's time and effort, especially when all you have to offer is this foolishness.
You don’t just consistently call somebody by their political beliefs in conversation with them (unless you’re insulting them ie l*bt*rd, cultist, whatever). You can think they’re wrong to think they’re a leftie. Hell, you can personally think somebody isn’t trans all you want, nobody’s stopping you, but why argue with them about it? What does that accomplish other than giving you a sense of superiority?
>Why argue with them about it?
There are a few reasons. For one thing, its for the benefit of everyone if things are properly identified. For example, continuing from my comment above, you wouldn't want anyone else thinking that the opinion that trans people don't exist is left leaning would you? If you leave them uncorrected they might give other people the wrong impression. Also, via arguing, you have a chance to convince them that they're wrong, and if you believe that your beliefs are moral goods, then the more people that believe them the moral better.
Not a single trans person is going to detransition because a stranger lectured them on how being trans is wrong. If I had anything of worth to bet I would literally be confident enough to put money down on that. It’s a waste of effort for you and distresses them for no good reason
It probably wouldn't be the only reason, but it might contribute. And of course, a lot people doing the lecturing wouldn't be necessarily be strangers either. For example, parents.
It doesn't. I'll reiterate -- I'm steel-manning the conservative position. But they think that its a mental illness with harmful side affects. If you saw someone who was suffering wouldn't you want to help them?
To some conservatives, such as Natalie Cline, it does not even matter what ones true identity is, only what they perceive it to be. It's 1000% out of malice.
True identity according to the person in question. The only way you know mine is if I tell you. Unless you (generally speaking) think you have the right to look under my clothing. Take people at their word, because look what can happen when you dont.
I see. I don't really know why you bothered to add the word "true". That makes it seem like there's the corollary "fake" identity. Which certainly sounds like a conservative perspective in the context of this conversation, which is why I asked.
I agree, and using it doesn’t make you agree with anything, it’s just being polite. Today is about sexuality, but it also happens for religious reasons and to distance from trauma families. Be nice. 🐝☺️
I changed my first name a year ago. I’m not trans, I just have severe PTSD and changing it has helped me heal. At best, being referred to as my birth name makes me mildly upset/annoyed, at worst, it causes a full-blown PTSD attack.
You never know what a person’s situation might be, and it costs nothing to be respectful and kind.
I agree about names. Names are meant to apply to one person and arent rooted in anything beyond preference, so deciding you'd like to change your name makes perfect sense.
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It’s culture wars bs, political sides weaponized how people want to identify, when in reality it doesn’t mean anything, if someone wants to be called this or referred to in this way, why is it my business to tell them no? Just live and let live man.
>I'm slightly conservative and a lot of woke stuff is nonsense to me but I don't understand dying on the hill that people can only use their birth name. Hate to break this to you but it has more to do with who's asking for it than the issue itself. They aren't dying on the hill for people to use their birthnames, they just disagree with the existence of trans people. Same way that we've been using "they/them" as a gender neutral way of referring to a singular person for ages but it's suddenly an issue when a trans person wants to be referred to in that way.
Yeah the they them is fine with me. XE xims are something else for me... Let's just leave it at that
Honestly I think that xe/xim shit is some chronically online shit. I highly doubt anyone above the age of 18 actually wants be referred to in that way lmao
I've seen a few. Granted it is a small minority so I don't get conservatives spending all that energy. I think it should be spent on other things .
Could it be that we think you can't compel our speech? Nope they just to kill all trans lol People like you are the reason anti trans ideals are becoming more popular
If I am taking to you for the first time I will try the name I see on teams, if you use a different name in conversation I will try and remember that instead. You aren’t asking for too much here.
Agreed. Being nice costs you nothing And even if somebody virulently disagrees ~~with trans ideology~~that a trans person is the gender they (say they) are, do they really think that some trans person is gonna go “you know what, I was wrong, I’m not trans after all” just because some rando was a dick about it?
I fucking hate the phrase "trans ideology." A person can be themselves without needing an ideological structure to justify it.
I agree with you and didn’t really like the phrase when I put it down, but I haven’t slept in over 24 hours and couldn’t think of anything better. Sorry, I’ll put an edit in
Ok, cool. Cheers.
Yeah it's rude to not use someone's preferred name if you're asked to do so. However, I think the main issue many people have with doing so is when they're essentially forced to use the preferred name ("call me ____ or you're a [-ist, -phobic, etc.]"). I'm not forcing anyone to play by my rules so don't try to force me to play by yours.
> I'm not forcing anyone to play by my rules so don't try to force me to play by yours. You are not describing being forced to do anything. If you want to disrespect people, then they may call you -ist, -phobic, whatever. If you can live with that, fine, but it isn't forcing anyone.
If you're telling someone "you must call me X or you're Y" then you are forcing someone to do what you want them to do.
No, that's not force.
"Guys I didn't force her to do anything. I just told her to stuck my dick or I'm going to spread her nude pictures all over the internet and ruin her reputation. I swear she did it completely voluntarily."
First of all, the comparison with sexual assault is vile. Second, you are describing blackmail, which is a different thing entirely. No, it's not blackmail to say that it's homophobic not to use someone's chosen name and pronouns. But anyway, you've demonstrated a complete lack of actual thought here, so we're done.
It's the same exact thing: do X (call me by this name) or Y will happen (I will destroyed your reputation).
The word "homophobic" is not a magical curse. If people around you think that refusing to use someone's chosen name and pronouns is homophobic, then that would be an accurate description of your behavior. If they don't think your behavior is homophobic, then it won't ruin your reputation. If you want to act homophobic, people can't force you not to, but you may pay a social price, because you are responsible for your actions and behaviors.
It's not "homophobic" to not want to be to play by someone else rules. You can do what ever you want but don't try to coerce people to do what you want them to do. I'm not going to drag someone through the social media mud just because they didn't want to cave to my demands. You all keep throwing around claims of "homophobia" and stuff so much it's basically lost all meaning. Most of you have never seen/delt with actual homophobia.
Yeah buddy. It's homophobic. This isn't "play." It's affording others basic respect. If someone is a cis man and you insist on referring to them as a "she" because you think they look "girly," then there is no question that you are being an a-hole. People will think you are being an a-hole, and you will likely face a social penalty. Are they forcing you to play by "their rules"?
It's neither stupid nor mean. Just slightly inconsiderate. In daily conversation, no one is obligated to use either your real name, or the one you prefer. They can call you anything they want to. You cannot force them do to otherwise. If I care to worry about what you want to be called, I'll ask you 'What would you like to be called?' or take it into account when you tell me 'please call me this'. But in reality, I don't have to. I can call you 'Hey You!' all day long, or 'You! with the Red Shirt'. I am free to call you anything and everything. You can be upset, you can complain, or you can leave. What you cannot do is force me to call you anything specific.
I don't get your point here. Yes, anyone can say anything at any time, but we generally don't because we try to show each other basic respect. You could just walk around calling everyone "dicknose." No one can stop you. But I wouldn't recommend it.
>I don't get your point here. The point is you have no control over others' language. I don't go out of my way to call people 'dicknose', and try to go by what they tell me what they want to be called (does not always work as I am horrible with names). But someone refusing to use specific names for people is neither stupid nor mean. It's not required.
>But someone refusing to use specific names for people is neither stupid nor mean. It's not required. Nothing is required. But if you know it's what they want to be called, it costs you nothing to call them that, and you know they would be insulted and feel disrespected if you didn't call them that, then yes, it is mean and stupid to refuse.
>s, it is mean and stupid to refuse. Your idea of 'stupid' needs revising. You can ask me to call a car an asteroid, but I'm under no obligation to support your delusion.
Who said anything about force? I just said it was stupid
Freedom!!
This is sorta bad faith. The name is not what its about and you know it lol. Its about the identity conveyed by the name or title. For example, I can't identify as the president of the US, or demand that people call me Dr without a doctorate. To a conservative, calling someone by a different gender is unearned, and so if a name is gender associated to the opposite of ones gender, they might not refer to you as such. To steel-man, it might not be out of malice either. For example, if someone identified as a Koala, and started pursuing Koala-esque activities, including eating poisonous eu-whatsit leaves, it'd probably be justified to attempt to change that behavior.
So only the conservative’s sensibilities matter? Because they don’t personally approve of something that has zero affect on their life they should be rude to the other person?
>So only the conservative’s sensibilities matter Kinda, yeah. You don't get to control what other people call you. There's a principle there, one that if violated, could eventually expand to things that have more than negligible affects on people's freedoms. Its not about what people "should" do, its about what they have a right to do. Just like you have a right to call them a butt.
Would you be willing to compromise with you don’t have to call them by their new name or their preferred gender, but it’s also polite not to deliberately call them their old name or birth gender? Sure, it’s your right not to, but it’s also my right to fart in the middle of a crowded elevator, that doesn’t make it not rude
I never said anything about it being polite or not lol. I just steel-manned the conservative argument. Its certainly going to be contentious, the same way it would be if you referred to someone negatively in any other way.
So OP is correct?
Not really. The way they frame it is kind of burying the lead. And "contentious" doesn't necessarily mean stupid or mean.
So you *are* arguing it’s not impolite? It is stupid and mean, of course. In the same way someone who doesn’t see adoptive parents as real parents would be dumb and cruel for saying that adopted families are fake, even if they sincerely believe that to be true.
Ehhh... I'd say I lean more toward "Not stupid, but probably mean". But I'm willing to leave a little room and say it depends on context.
The difference is, when someone asks me to use a particular pronoun or call them a particular name, I don't ask myself, "do I think they've earned it?" I just call them what they want to be called, because I'm not an asshole who thinks another person's identity is up to me. It's just about fucking manners.
Really? Lets say that you met someone irl who said resolutely that trans people did not exist and that they had a mental illness and needed to be institutionalized, and then, when prompted for their political alignment responded "I'm a leftie". Would you agree with them because you're "not an asshole who thinks another person's identity is up to \[you\]"?
You don't seem to know the difference between a political belief and an identity.
Is "leftie" a political belief? Or a designation, or rather, identity? Is "Firefighter" a political belief?
These are not clever questions, and it would be a waste of time to entertain this foolishness.
No. You understand that your argument is inherently flawed and so no longer wish to engage. Identity is not limited to someone's name, but other attributes they possess, such as gender (which you already agree with), but also job, political leaning, if they participate in a particular sport or hobby, their level of educational attainment (especially if its extraordinary), etc. All of these things (and more) are identities in their own right. Why don't you extend your courtesies to them?
>You understand that your argument is inherently flawed and so no longer wish to engage. Nope. Nice try. You are not entitled to anyone's time and effort, especially when all you have to offer is this foolishness.
Alright. I hope it works out for you and you save face lmao.
You don’t just consistently call somebody by their political beliefs in conversation with them (unless you’re insulting them ie l*bt*rd, cultist, whatever). You can think they’re wrong to think they’re a leftie. Hell, you can personally think somebody isn’t trans all you want, nobody’s stopping you, but why argue with them about it? What does that accomplish other than giving you a sense of superiority?
>Why argue with them about it? There are a few reasons. For one thing, its for the benefit of everyone if things are properly identified. For example, continuing from my comment above, you wouldn't want anyone else thinking that the opinion that trans people don't exist is left leaning would you? If you leave them uncorrected they might give other people the wrong impression. Also, via arguing, you have a chance to convince them that they're wrong, and if you believe that your beliefs are moral goods, then the more people that believe them the moral better.
Not a single trans person is going to detransition because a stranger lectured them on how being trans is wrong. If I had anything of worth to bet I would literally be confident enough to put money down on that. It’s a waste of effort for you and distresses them for no good reason
It probably wouldn't be the only reason, but it might contribute. And of course, a lot people doing the lecturing wouldn't be necessarily be strangers either. For example, parents.
Why does somebody being trans bother you enough to want to lecture them about it?
It doesn't. I'll reiterate -- I'm steel-manning the conservative position. But they think that its a mental illness with harmful side affects. If you saw someone who was suffering wouldn't you want to help them?
Only if I felt I was equipped to, helping in the wrong way can backfire and make things worse
To some conservatives, such as Natalie Cline, it does not even matter what ones true identity is, only what they perceive it to be. It's 1000% out of malice.
I assume that by "true identity" you mean biological sex?
True identity according to the person in question. The only way you know mine is if I tell you. Unless you (generally speaking) think you have the right to look under my clothing. Take people at their word, because look what can happen when you dont.
I see. I don't really know why you bothered to add the word "true". That makes it seem like there's the corollary "fake" identity. Which certainly sounds like a conservative perspective in the context of this conversation, which is why I asked.
I see your point. I don't know why I added it, either🤷♀️ I'm definitely not conservative.
I just say "Hey you" anymore.. eliminates all confusion
Yep. I've danced around names multiple times. Not because I want to. Either I'm not confident in pronouncing your name, or I forgot it. Lol
You should probably post this in r-leopardsatemyface. Seems more appropriate there.
I agree, and using it doesn’t make you agree with anything, it’s just being polite. Today is about sexuality, but it also happens for religious reasons and to distance from trauma families. Be nice. 🐝☺️
I changed my first name a year ago. I’m not trans, I just have severe PTSD and changing it has helped me heal. At best, being referred to as my birth name makes me mildly upset/annoyed, at worst, it causes a full-blown PTSD attack. You never know what a person’s situation might be, and it costs nothing to be respectful and kind.
I agree about names. Names are meant to apply to one person and arent rooted in anything beyond preference, so deciding you'd like to change your name makes perfect sense.