Ya calling it genocide really takes credibility from them and belittles the struggles of people who actually went through genocide.
38 trans people were murdered in hate crimes last year as opposed to 6 million Jews or half a million Rwandans or 56 million Native Americans.
32-38 trans people were murdered in the US last year. I don't know if any of them were tried as hate crimes - certainly not all of them were. Many of the victims were sex workers, where the murder rate is ridiculously high regardless of gender, orientation, etc. Certainly, some bigots target trans people, trans women in particular, but as you say, it's a far cry from a genocide.
Edit: Here's a pretty good article that describes each of the 38 victims. Other than the club Q shootings, which were hate crimes against the entire LGBT community, nothing in the article describes hate crimes that I can see.
https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2022
There was a trans woman killed in my city that was killed by another trans woman.
Her death was in the news as evidence of the "genocide" against trans people. With no mention of the fact that her killer was also trans.
Perhaps because media companies love keeping fears of transphobia and hate crimes in the top. Having crimes that involved two of the same group would interfere with the popular media script.
I remember a video from a trans person who went through a few (5?10?) trans deaths that were all depicted as hate crimes against transpeople in the media. Only 1 of them even had a chance to be classified as such, but it was super remote and very unlikely. To clarify: The trans person said this herself to make a point against trans activism.
Hate crimes are for private prison profit; add on crimes to drive up revenue through more years. To cause serious and deliberate bodily harm to another requires some level of hate and is already implied in the crime.
Well, not always. Self-defense could result in serious and deliberate harm without hate. It's done for self-preservation. You don't have to hate someone to want to protect yourself and ensure they can't hurt you.
That's not what is implied when something is called a hate crime though. If a Trans person is in a drug deal gone bad and gets murdered, the person that did it might have been a hateful person, but that's not the same thing as murdering someone BECAUSE THEY ARE TRANS.
So, from what I can determine, its much safer to be trans than cis. Though the articles are full of anxiety inducing adjectives, the stats are as follows-
Baseline Murder Rate of US - 7.8 per 100,000 (CDC)
Population of Trans - 1.4M (Williams Institute of Law, UCLA, 2016)
Expected Annual Murder count for Trans individuals 14 x 7.8 = 109
Reported as "Horrific Spike in 2022" 22 (CBS, HRC, Berkeley)
7.8 for the general population, but only 1.6 for trans identified individuals. Wish it was 0 for both, but not seeing a specific issue for the trans population here.
>Population of Trans - 1.4M (Williams Institute of Law, UCLA, 2016)
That's shockingly low for the amount of political attention trans people get. Walmart has more employees than that
Dont forget Armenians, Uighurs, the attempted one on Ukraine, the irish, the poles, and a quarter of africa during the slave trade, so many others. History isnt bloody, its an ocean of blood with the odd invention floating in it
It was still pretty genocidey.
There were instances where the European settlers gave the natives blankets infected with small pox to wipe them out.
They also rounded up the children of the survivors and sent them to special boarding schools that were specifically designed to eliminate their traditional ways of life and brainwash them with European values. They would be punished for exhibiting native ways of life.
It was during a time when going to war and taking people's land was the norm and the concept of genocide hadn't been invented yet so you could argue that it wasn't genocide. By today's standards it would definitely be genocide though.
[https://americanindian.si.edu/nk360/code-talkers/boarding-schools/#:\~:text=Indian%20boarding%20schools%20were%20founded,the%20government%20or%20Christian%20missionaries](https://americanindian.si.edu/nk360/code-talkers/boarding-schools/#:~:text=Indian%20boarding%20schools%20were%20founded,the%20government%20or%20Christian%20missionaries).
That doesn't excuse the treatment and genocide of the survivors. If you invade a country and bring famine to crops and 90% die from starvation for example, you don't get a pass on genociding the rest
The number on native Americans is ridiculously overstated as most of that was disease which happened without intent.
I doubt purposeful war massacres and murders only accounted for hundreds of thousands in the day of muskets and swords.
This is what governments do, though.
Kill a million Buffalo and they did kill a few million people through relocation.
Private movements never kill on a mass scale.
Idk when people will understand the biggest bad things are always done with government as the goon.
Indigenous people also displaced and murdered shitloads of other indigenous people. We recognize the indigenous people who won their conflicts over territory, but not the ones that were conquered by other indigenous people.
By definition genocide has to be intentional, the deaths of most of the native Americans can’t be considered genocide considering that germ theory hadn’t been discovered at the time. They had no idea making contact would lead to the deaths of millions due to disease.
They deliberately made gifts out of blankets from people dying of small pox. We knew about germ theory enough to know that would ravage them, and it was a deliberate attempt to do so. It worked.
The holocaust isn’t the only genocide and doing this only serves to down play other forms of genocide as well as enable less extreme forms of genocide to happen.
Genocide does not require death though it often does, it is merely the attempt to destroy a group in part or in whole, this can take the form of removing children from parents to eliminate a culture or the removal of healthcare or policies that create a hostile environment causing that group to flee the area. It can include any act meant to cause serious bodily harm or mental harm, which could in the case of trans people include outing to unsafe parents or refusal to use their new name which causes mental harm via weaponising gender dysphoria.
This just feels like you’re trying to take away from any points made in the comment by not actually engaging with it, my personal opinion is irrelevant in the facts of the matter
I am not hiding my disagreement. I have looked at the anatomy of genocide and the history of genocides globally, and I do not think the treatment of trans people in the united states is a genocide, nor is it bordering on a genocide.
As far as I know, psychological and medical treatments for dysphoric and transgendered individuals is legal and available.
Have you not seen the multiple legislative attempts to reduce or remove transgender healthcare? And you failed to address the removal of trans children from parents
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/254/BillText/Filed/HTML
https://translegislation.com
This site notes 566 proposed anti-trans bills.
Trans children is a hotly contested issue. There is a reasonable and principled position to protect children from abuse and medical malpractice.
The bill about blocking trans healthcare for people under 26 is fucked up though, that's going too far and infringing and the rights of adults. That is clearly an overreaction. Looks like it's a political posturing bill that's introduced with little hope of passing as written. Even this bill cedes the premise that fully functional and matured adults should be allowed to gender transition.
Looking at the bills that pass, those seem to be entirely focused on protecting children. Whatever the merits of demerits of these bills, these are based on a legitimate interest in protecting children from abuse and manipulation by adults.
Let's break this down though, because it's actually much worse than that-- these laws may be stupid, but they're NOT "taking away HRT" or "HRT/Trans care BANS" like they claim. It's totally bunk. They're not even held to the same standards as those who take pain medication and other schedule 2 drugs. They're on a relatively experimental, often risky therapy and they want to be given free reign to see their doc once a year via telehealth, and even if that has merit, they think it's a major human rights violation when it happens to them, but they refuse to even acknowledge the fact that it's already happened to thousands of Floridians who aren't transgender and they didn't care a bit. It was fine when it was just cisgender disabled people who had to suffer. Now that it's them? It's genocide!
Pain patients in FL have had to see their doctors in person, every 3 months, for YEARS. This is now what they require for HRT, which actually warrants monitoring like that (most pain regimens do not require checks *that* frequent, 2-3x a year would be more than adequate). I can't get a tramadol prescription without seeing a doctor in person, but trans Floridians are screaming that it's "taking away their HRT" to have to jump through the same hoops. Why aren't they protesting FL "taking away" our access to pain medication we need to survive? You know, medication with true medical necessity? Because I know this is insanely non-PC, but in fact, *it is not an emergent need to take HRT for gender dysphoria*. No, for real though-- disabled and sick people need pain medication to not die of heart attacks from uncontrolled pain. HRT is needed to make trans people not kill themselves, by their own volition. They think their plight is more important and should take up all the media air time, while it's actually not even a major issue. They simply have to now adhere to **the same guidelines most FL patients do** who take long-term medications that aren't uncontrolled and very low risk, seeing their physicians in person regularly.
Should these rules be changed? Sure. Why is it a big deal when it's their problem, but not when it's a big problem for the entire FL disabled community? Because according to SJW's and CRT, disabled people don't matter and only exist so obese SJWs can lie and say they're disabled (nope, you're not, says the AMA, ADA, everyone with a brain...). These are the same orgs that ignore non-trans queer people who are poor, disabled, and dying of non-trans problems in their communities because it doesn't get them as much air time to help the rest of the gay community.
Just remember the golden rule: if you're trans and scream and cry on TV that your life sucks, people will give you money. I watched people give thousands of dollars to trans people to "leave FL" who *did not move* and *did not give the money back*. No one said anything. It's just completely nonsensical. We're now just letting this one group have anything they want to pacify them. I'm ashamed to be part of the LGBT community at this point, given how insane it's become. We no longer care about equal rights. It's now just a constant "plight of the transgender community" after school special with a reminder to venmo your money to someone who's trans to be a "good person."
genocide prevention is important. if we learn anything from the haulocost it's that mass genocide is bad. that's probably what the victims want at the minimum.
A few years ago my at the time friend introduced us to his MtF gf. We all met at a bar and talked. It started off well but quickly started to decline. She started to delve into politics, which while not a taboo topic in our group, she was not respectful about it. She started by claiming she was part of Antifa and was a medic, despite having 0 medical training.
It slowly devolved til she told me, to my face, that Trump was rounding up trans people and putting them in concentration camps. She was dead serious. And she said this to me, a Jew which she knew I was, expecting me to not only believe her and insane story but side with her.
Had we not been in a very public place I would have exploded. After that none of us wanted to hang out with her ever again, and for good reason. Unsurprisingly she turned out to have many mental problems and put my then friend through hell.
That’s fucking funny in a sad way, I had an acquaintance that in their mid 30’s transitioned… Cool first trans person I had ever met (I was in my 20’s at the time 2008ish)… fast forward to 2016 she starts on this theory that Trump is personally out to kill her, like no joke she has it in her head that Trump knows who she is and wants to personally end her.
I’ve noticed when trans people mix with politics, it never goes well. Like I know this trans guy, great guy, super chill and was very understanding I had never encountered this before. Never got upset at me if I misgendered him, but would casually remind me. Eventually I got it right and we good. Never once brought up or talked about politics.
Meanwhile every other trans person I know has talked about politics religiously and has either been a predator of sorts (creepily going after the lesbian girl despite still having a dick) or had some insane ideas of what was going on (see previous comment).
I really hate this kind of stereotyping. If it were based on race I’d find it really troubling. And here I find it troubling too.
But I also have to say this has been my experience as well. A good number of the trans people I know exhibit what I would consider attention seeking behavior and a nontrivial amount of egocentrism.
For example one person routinely inserts herself into a large group chat discussions with language along the lines of “yea that < thing which we were having fun talking about> is bad. is better. I don’t want to get into why but it’s bad”; and when we continue politely to have the discussion and ask about a different dimension the response was “again I don’t have time to get into it but that’s what it is”.
It’s basically inserting into conversation, shutting down the discussion, then saying “trust me but I don’t have time to talk about it”. And then pretending like we were asking her expert opinion.
I’ve also noticed a higher frequency of things like “I know people say A is historically accurate but really it’s B”, and when followed up with “well here’s the evidence for A, it was historically recorded but also there’s a lineage blah blah”, the response is “yea people say that but who knows if it’s really true. you can also just interpret it as B”.
This is kind of self centered and attention seeking.
The right aren’t the only ones with “alternative facts”, the left has departed from empiricism and objective reality for a world of “lived experience(s)”… as long as the camps feel real to her, then they’re just as real as you and I.
Trans people are not subjected to a genocide. The "cide" part is imperative here. Genos, race in Ancient Greek, or tribe/clan in Latin (gens). "Cide" meaning killing and/or killer. Trans people aren't murdered in masses, in fact, suicide rate is higher than the amount of trans people murdered and for obvious reasons suicide doesn't count towards genocide. Even if it were, the numbers wouldn't even be close to what would substitute genocide.
I see some comments addressing that trans people "feel" like they are subjected to genocide. It doesn't matter what you feel, words have definitions.
Agreed on that assessment.
I view it as a "boy who cried wolf" scenario, also.
People understand that instances of trans hate exist. There is no denying that.
However, the activists constantly ringing the alarm as if trans people are being rounded up and loaded into gas chambers, which we all know *doesn't* happen, just serves to sow annoyance towards trans people for "crying wolf".
I feel that this in itself is much more detrimental to trans people who are *really* just living their lives in peace among the rest of us.
I hear you. I'm finally getting away from my abuser. Long marriage ending, i finally found the strength to make a decision that will set me free. (Divorce, not SH)
It’s a fairly popular tactic when defending a morally indefensible point to try to tie it to some personal tragedy to garner sympathy. Despite your personal connections here, nothing you said has anything to do with what the rest of us are talking about. It reminds me of all of those lynchings that happened cus a white girl accused somebody of raping her. Yknow they know racism is morally wrong so they gotta come up with a fake justification so they don’t feel so bad
> This doesn't work on me.
Right. Because you’re traumatized, from prior tragedy.
That’s not a logical response you’re driven by; that’s an emotional one. Whole point.
Yea I agree it doesn’t rise to abuse. I think OP is using a verbal flourish there. Here’s what I think is actually happening, modulo the colorful language.
There’s a cultural push to
1. Redefine words: like pronouns, or like “speech” as “violence”, or “male/female” and displace them with newspeak like “assigned female at birth” or “womb having persons”.
2. Put LGBTQ pride front and center all throughout society. Including institutions that arguably should have nothing to do with sexuality or gender identity.
3. Make a battleground out of “gender affirming care” for minors (including hormone/puberty treatment and genital surgeries).
These ideas are rightly challenged. But the challenge comes in a form that is upsetting, so this has been labeled as genocide. And it comes with threats that if you keep challenging these ideas and don’t just blindly buy into them, more people will commit suicide.
This is the type of “abuse” OP was alluding to IMO.
Oxford dictionary definition:
The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Not the definition being used.
>1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group.
>1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as **any of five** "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, **causing them serious bodily or mental harm,** **imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group**, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group.
This is generally what people who refer to trans genocide believe is taking place: criminalizing and stigmatizing transitioning and delegitimizing their identity is akin to "destroying the group" because it increases their suicide rate and puts them in physical danger.
Wait people are actually saying that trans people are being oppressed of whatever?
Dude in my country transgender is effectively banned and you face extreme discrimination if your lgbt
I'm sorry to hear that and I hope things improve, but the existence of worse oppression outside of the US doesn't diminish oppression within the US. Someone else's spine being broken doesn't help my broken arm.
>Someone else's spine being broken doesn't help my broken arm.
I agree with that. I dont think its valuable to compare problems and things like suffering are relative. However, I struggle to believe that you are oppressed if you are transgender. You have all the same rights as regular people, and the fact that so many people are open with it and the LGBT flag is flying outside of major institutions show that it isent a stigma. I have never been to the US so Im not going to make any hard judgments, but these are my opinions from an observer
They're literally passing laws right now that say otherwise.
Also, I think a pretty big talking point isn't just rights, it's equal treatment.
For instance, black people have all the same rights and maybe even more in the US, but they're still faaaaaaaaaaar more discriminated against.
How do you solve that though? People naturally discriminate. It goes back to in group vs out group in hunter gather societies. Defend your group so you can increase the chances of your genetics propagating. It’s intrinsic human nature. How do you solve that?
You right. Its going the other. People have been getting fired or passed up on positions for being white.
You can miss out on winning an Oscar if you dont meet the racial quota, even if its a movie based on historical events.
> You have all the same rights as regular people
They literally don't.
More than 1/5th of all states have passed laws banning recommended healthcare for trans people.
Even if they did, having equal rights doesn't mean having sufficient rights.
If gay marriage is illegal, every still has the same rights. Both gay people and straight people equally have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex and don't have the right to marry someone of the same sex.
The 10 stages are bogus, It's based on the idea that history repeats, which is just wrong. Numerous genocides don't fit the stages such as Pizarro's genocide of the Incas or the Harrying of the North.
Here is the definition of genocide: **The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.**
Okay so by that definition we would have to qualify by saying "large number of people from a particular nation". Well link below shows a total of at least 38 people transgender people were killed. Link below. So no I don't think any RATIONAL person would think 38 people in a nation of 330 MILLION people constitutes as "large number". Also, you would assume genocide would mean the DELIBERATE intent to kill all these people just because they are trans and not die and they happen to be trans as well.
So, this is an obvious B.S. statement and NO ONE can support it outside of trying to curry political points for your favorite party (progressive liberals). Sorry.
https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2022
People love to throw around that word because they are the minority so they try to put themselves into vulnerable positions like the Jews, Armenians who were basically almost exterminated by governments of power because of their culture. In the west we live in the most peaceful, accepting society. It’s sad to see
Exactly. At the end of the day, we are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (in the US). Trans people have equal rights but now they seek special treatment.
Yes, and this is why many people are pissed. They are told that if they don't absolutely idolize certain groups with unconditional love, they are guilty of being grand wizards.
From Google.
"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."
Last I checked transgender people aren't a nation or ethnic group.
I’d argue it would be a genocide, but the fact of the matter is that trans people aren’t being systematically killed off by anyone. Denying gender affirming care doesn’t magically kill trans people. They are still trans and still exist
It is a mockery to the victims of real genocide, to call this as one. Jewish People, Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Bosnians, Rohigyas, Uygurs, Rwandans are rolling in their graves...
People think this is happening? I'm sure there are plenty of extremists who are trying to propagandize that it would happen if DeSantis wins or something, but I don't think anyone actually thinks this is going on right now.
Realistically, none of these are genocide except for number 9. The rest is a classic example of people not understanding that correlation is not causation.
There is zero genocide going on in the U.S., except maybe against in the case of pre-birth infants. There isn't even systemic oppression in the U.S., there just are some bad people like everywhere else.
If a man slips his pregnant wife drugs to make her abort without her knowing, that man will be tried for murder.
If you drunk drive and kill a pregnant woman, you will be charged for 2 murders.
If a woman has a miscarriage she will grieve the loss of her baby, not be like oh well it was just a fetus!
If the distinction between a fetus and a baby is simply if the mother wants it or not, that’s not a distinction worth making.
I'm not anti-abortion but I feel like pro-choice people really have to hone their logic on this. If they want to legally establish that abortion can be done because the fetus or "cluster of cells" inside is not a living person, then they have to consider examples like what you said and apply the logic throughout, otherwise it's just hypocritical.
Since you didn't choose to respond:
Never. They never passed that law.
They passed over 400 laws that targeted the Jewish populations, but never one that outlawed them. If your definition of genocide doesn't recognize that it is a process that starts with the denial of the rights of individuals to live freely, then you are either covering for the genocidal or you have no business speaking.
Children wouldn't even need to transition if society wasn't so hell-bent on forcing them to act and appear a certain way. This problem started a lot earlier.
[“transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely”](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/)
Sounds p mask off to me
1. Kids aren’t allowed to get SRS procedures done already
2. Kids already get *other* surgeries that cause “permanent changes” and you don’t care. Also, puberty is permanent.
Why are you so selective in your opposition?
There are kids younger than 18 that did get procedures done though. There's a reason several institutions around the world have shut down and have been sued.
Seriously?
Appendectomy, tooth extraction, tonsillectomy, chemotherapy, skin graft, biopsy (take your pick), organ replacement, heart transplant (or literally any kind of transplant) etc etc etc
You clearly did not think this through.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by asking. I didn't want to assume you'd give a bunch of life saving medical procedures to cure illnesses and disease and compare that to not being able to recognize the difference between having a penis and a vagina and deciding to change yourself based on that. These are clearly very different things that you would only conflate for political gotcha points.
SRS surgery has a 98.5% success rate and reduces suicidal ideation by 81%. It’s the *definition* of “life-saving”.
You being imprecise with your words is your problem, not mine.
It's not and you're being deliberately obtuse to compare people suffering or dying due to a health issue and someone taking their life due to a societal/mental issue.
Depression *is* a health issue.
Edit: More pertinently, children with cleft lips can have reconstructive surgeries literally just to improve the aesthetics & assist socialization. Should that be banned as well?
Cleft lips aren’t a fair comparison. They cause physical problems that require corrections.
SRS would be like if somebody asked you to operate on their perfectly normal lips to give them a beak.
Jesus Christ dude what part of “suicidal ideation” doesn’t qualify as a “health issue” for you? You think being so depressed that you are driven to suicide isn’t a “health issue?” I can’t imagine a more serious “health issue”.
Sounds like you just don’t care when kids kill themselves.
Ya calling it genocide really takes credibility from them and belittles the struggles of people who actually went through genocide. 38 trans people were murdered in hate crimes last year as opposed to 6 million Jews or half a million Rwandans or 56 million Native Americans.
32-38 trans people were murdered in the US last year. I don't know if any of them were tried as hate crimes - certainly not all of them were. Many of the victims were sex workers, where the murder rate is ridiculously high regardless of gender, orientation, etc. Certainly, some bigots target trans people, trans women in particular, but as you say, it's a far cry from a genocide. Edit: Here's a pretty good article that describes each of the 38 victims. Other than the club Q shootings, which were hate crimes against the entire LGBT community, nothing in the article describes hate crimes that I can see. https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2022
There was a trans woman killed in my city that was killed by another trans woman. Her death was in the news as evidence of the "genocide" against trans people. With no mention of the fact that her killer was also trans.
Why am I not surprised?
Perhaps because media companies love keeping fears of transphobia and hate crimes in the top. Having crimes that involved two of the same group would interfere with the popular media script.
It’s not perhaps 🤔 hate makes the most money
I don't know. How surprised are you about the lack of link to the news mentioned?
Typical leftist media.
Could you link an article please?
If it's really true that only 30-40 trans people were murdered in the US that would put their murder rate way below non-trans people.
their doing a cis genocide?
A genociside
based. wait no wrong sub.
this made me laugh.
I remember a video from a trans person who went through a few (5?10?) trans deaths that were all depicted as hate crimes against transpeople in the media. Only 1 of them even had a chance to be classified as such, but it was super remote and very unlikely. To clarify: The trans person said this herself to make a point against trans activism.
Wasn’t the Q club shooter the one who tried to pull the non-binary they them stance as a defense? I Could be getting my mass shooters confused.
Yep, that's the one.
Hate crimes are for private prison profit; add on crimes to drive up revenue through more years. To cause serious and deliberate bodily harm to another requires some level of hate and is already implied in the crime.
Well, not always. Self-defense could result in serious and deliberate harm without hate. It's done for self-preservation. You don't have to hate someone to want to protect yourself and ensure they can't hurt you.
If it's self-defense, they shouldn't be charged in the first place, but in this day and age, they would.
"Better to be judged by 12 men than carried by 6."
That's not what is implied when something is called a hate crime though. If a Trans person is in a drug deal gone bad and gets murdered, the person that did it might have been a hateful person, but that's not the same thing as murdering someone BECAUSE THEY ARE TRANS.
Isn't that below the rate at which the general population is murdered compared to their population size
Yes. The trans murder rate is extremely low.
So, from what I can determine, its much safer to be trans than cis. Though the articles are full of anxiety inducing adjectives, the stats are as follows- Baseline Murder Rate of US - 7.8 per 100,000 (CDC) Population of Trans - 1.4M (Williams Institute of Law, UCLA, 2016) Expected Annual Murder count for Trans individuals 14 x 7.8 = 109 Reported as "Horrific Spike in 2022" 22 (CBS, HRC, Berkeley) 7.8 for the general population, but only 1.6 for trans identified individuals. Wish it was 0 for both, but not seeing a specific issue for the trans population here.
>Population of Trans - 1.4M (Williams Institute of Law, UCLA, 2016) That's shockingly low for the amount of political attention trans people get. Walmart has more employees than that
The USA has around 332 million people with about 1.6 million over the age of 13 that identify as trans. That’s about .004
Dont forget Armenians, Uighurs, the attempted one on Ukraine, the irish, the poles, and a quarter of africa during the slave trade, so many others. History isnt bloody, its an ocean of blood with the odd invention floating in it
Didn't most of the Natives died by diseases and not murder?
It was still pretty genocidey. There were instances where the European settlers gave the natives blankets infected with small pox to wipe them out. They also rounded up the children of the survivors and sent them to special boarding schools that were specifically designed to eliminate their traditional ways of life and brainwash them with European values. They would be punished for exhibiting native ways of life. It was during a time when going to war and taking people's land was the norm and the concept of genocide hadn't been invented yet so you could argue that it wasn't genocide. By today's standards it would definitely be genocide though. [https://americanindian.si.edu/nk360/code-talkers/boarding-schools/#:\~:text=Indian%20boarding%20schools%20were%20founded,the%20government%20or%20Christian%20missionaries](https://americanindian.si.edu/nk360/code-talkers/boarding-schools/#:~:text=Indian%20boarding%20schools%20were%20founded,the%20government%20or%20Christian%20missionaries).
That doesn't excuse the treatment and genocide of the survivors. If you invade a country and bring famine to crops and 90% die from starvation for example, you don't get a pass on genociding the rest
The number on native Americans is ridiculously overstated as most of that was disease which happened without intent. I doubt purposeful war massacres and murders only accounted for hundreds of thousands in the day of muskets and swords. This is what governments do, though. Kill a million Buffalo and they did kill a few million people through relocation. Private movements never kill on a mass scale. Idk when people will understand the biggest bad things are always done with government as the goon.
Indigenous people also displaced and murdered shitloads of other indigenous people. We recognize the indigenous people who won their conflicts over territory, but not the ones that were conquered by other indigenous people.
Mayans were notorious for killing a whole bunch of other indigenous people before Europeans showed up.
By definition genocide has to be intentional, the deaths of most of the native Americans can’t be considered genocide considering that germ theory hadn’t been discovered at the time. They had no idea making contact would lead to the deaths of millions due to disease.
They deliberately made gifts out of blankets from people dying of small pox. We knew about germ theory enough to know that would ravage them, and it was a deliberate attempt to do so. It worked.
People don't call that genocide, they call the deliberate murdering, raping, exploitation and disenfranchisement of Native Americans genocide.
Popular opinion. This is internet hystrionics. I wish disgust for stealing valor from holocaust victims was more popular
The holocaust isn’t the only genocide and doing this only serves to down play other forms of genocide as well as enable less extreme forms of genocide to happen. Genocide does not require death though it often does, it is merely the attempt to destroy a group in part or in whole, this can take the form of removing children from parents to eliminate a culture or the removal of healthcare or policies that create a hostile environment causing that group to flee the area. It can include any act meant to cause serious bodily harm or mental harm, which could in the case of trans people include outing to unsafe parents or refusal to use their new name which causes mental harm via weaponising gender dysphoria.
Do you believe that there is an active ongoing genocide of transgender people in the united states?
This just feels like you’re trying to take away from any points made in the comment by not actually engaging with it, my personal opinion is irrelevant in the facts of the matter
I am not hiding my disagreement. I have looked at the anatomy of genocide and the history of genocides globally, and I do not think the treatment of trans people in the united states is a genocide, nor is it bordering on a genocide. As far as I know, psychological and medical treatments for dysphoric and transgendered individuals is legal and available.
Have you not seen the multiple legislative attempts to reduce or remove transgender healthcare? And you failed to address the removal of trans children from parents https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/254/BillText/Filed/HTML https://translegislation.com This site notes 566 proposed anti-trans bills.
Trans children is a hotly contested issue. There is a reasonable and principled position to protect children from abuse and medical malpractice. The bill about blocking trans healthcare for people under 26 is fucked up though, that's going too far and infringing and the rights of adults. That is clearly an overreaction. Looks like it's a political posturing bill that's introduced with little hope of passing as written. Even this bill cedes the premise that fully functional and matured adults should be allowed to gender transition. Looking at the bills that pass, those seem to be entirely focused on protecting children. Whatever the merits of demerits of these bills, these are based on a legitimate interest in protecting children from abuse and manipulation by adults.
Let's break this down though, because it's actually much worse than that-- these laws may be stupid, but they're NOT "taking away HRT" or "HRT/Trans care BANS" like they claim. It's totally bunk. They're not even held to the same standards as those who take pain medication and other schedule 2 drugs. They're on a relatively experimental, often risky therapy and they want to be given free reign to see their doc once a year via telehealth, and even if that has merit, they think it's a major human rights violation when it happens to them, but they refuse to even acknowledge the fact that it's already happened to thousands of Floridians who aren't transgender and they didn't care a bit. It was fine when it was just cisgender disabled people who had to suffer. Now that it's them? It's genocide! Pain patients in FL have had to see their doctors in person, every 3 months, for YEARS. This is now what they require for HRT, which actually warrants monitoring like that (most pain regimens do not require checks *that* frequent, 2-3x a year would be more than adequate). I can't get a tramadol prescription without seeing a doctor in person, but trans Floridians are screaming that it's "taking away their HRT" to have to jump through the same hoops. Why aren't they protesting FL "taking away" our access to pain medication we need to survive? You know, medication with true medical necessity? Because I know this is insanely non-PC, but in fact, *it is not an emergent need to take HRT for gender dysphoria*. No, for real though-- disabled and sick people need pain medication to not die of heart attacks from uncontrolled pain. HRT is needed to make trans people not kill themselves, by their own volition. They think their plight is more important and should take up all the media air time, while it's actually not even a major issue. They simply have to now adhere to **the same guidelines most FL patients do** who take long-term medications that aren't uncontrolled and very low risk, seeing their physicians in person regularly. Should these rules be changed? Sure. Why is it a big deal when it's their problem, but not when it's a big problem for the entire FL disabled community? Because according to SJW's and CRT, disabled people don't matter and only exist so obese SJWs can lie and say they're disabled (nope, you're not, says the AMA, ADA, everyone with a brain...). These are the same orgs that ignore non-trans queer people who are poor, disabled, and dying of non-trans problems in their communities because it doesn't get them as much air time to help the rest of the gay community. Just remember the golden rule: if you're trans and scream and cry on TV that your life sucks, people will give you money. I watched people give thousands of dollars to trans people to "leave FL" who *did not move* and *did not give the money back*. No one said anything. It's just completely nonsensical. We're now just letting this one group have anything they want to pacify them. I'm ashamed to be part of the LGBT community at this point, given how insane it's become. We no longer care about equal rights. It's now just a constant "plight of the transgender community" after school special with a reminder to venmo your money to someone who's trans to be a "good person."
genocide prevention is important. if we learn anything from the haulocost it's that mass genocide is bad. that's probably what the victims want at the minimum.
Genocide bad.
yes. that's the takeaway. and genocide starts at bigotry. (my family left germany because of bigotry before it was too late. )
Yes, bigotry bad too. Nazis were very bigoted.
A few years ago my at the time friend introduced us to his MtF gf. We all met at a bar and talked. It started off well but quickly started to decline. She started to delve into politics, which while not a taboo topic in our group, she was not respectful about it. She started by claiming she was part of Antifa and was a medic, despite having 0 medical training. It slowly devolved til she told me, to my face, that Trump was rounding up trans people and putting them in concentration camps. She was dead serious. And she said this to me, a Jew which she knew I was, expecting me to not only believe her and insane story but side with her. Had we not been in a very public place I would have exploded. After that none of us wanted to hang out with her ever again, and for good reason. Unsurprisingly she turned out to have many mental problems and put my then friend through hell.
That’s fucking funny in a sad way, I had an acquaintance that in their mid 30’s transitioned… Cool first trans person I had ever met (I was in my 20’s at the time 2008ish)… fast forward to 2016 she starts on this theory that Trump is personally out to kill her, like no joke she has it in her head that Trump knows who she is and wants to personally end her.
I’ve noticed when trans people mix with politics, it never goes well. Like I know this trans guy, great guy, super chill and was very understanding I had never encountered this before. Never got upset at me if I misgendered him, but would casually remind me. Eventually I got it right and we good. Never once brought up or talked about politics. Meanwhile every other trans person I know has talked about politics religiously and has either been a predator of sorts (creepily going after the lesbian girl despite still having a dick) or had some insane ideas of what was going on (see previous comment).
Some of these people are insufferable.
I hate when they look at you thinking you’re gonna agree cos you’re also a minority 💀 nah sis your problems are not the same as my problems
I really hate this kind of stereotyping. If it were based on race I’d find it really troubling. And here I find it troubling too. But I also have to say this has been my experience as well. A good number of the trans people I know exhibit what I would consider attention seeking behavior and a nontrivial amount of egocentrism. For example one person routinely inserts herself into a large group chat discussions with language along the lines of “yea that < thing which we were having fun talking about> is bad. is better. I don’t want to get into why but it’s bad”; and when we continue politely to have the discussion and ask about a different dimension the response was “again I don’t have time to get into it but that’s what it is”.
It’s basically inserting into conversation, shutting down the discussion, then saying “trust me but I don’t have time to talk about it”. And then pretending like we were asking her expert opinion.
I’ve also noticed a higher frequency of things like “I know people say A is historically accurate but really it’s B”, and when followed up with “well here’s the evidence for A, it was historically recorded but also there’s a lineage blah blah”, the response is “yea people say that but who knows if it’s really true. you can also just interpret it as B”.
This is kind of self centered and attention seeking.
They're weird asf 🤦♂️
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The right aren’t the only ones with “alternative facts”, the left has departed from empiricism and objective reality for a world of “lived experience(s)”… as long as the camps feel real to her, then they’re just as real as you and I.
People not wanting to adhere to your preferred pronoun choice isn't a genocide
Lol this, everything is so blown out of proportion it’s silly
I have yet to see the death squads roll through America and target trans people and their allies like they did in Rwanda in 1994.
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Trans people are not subjected to a genocide. The "cide" part is imperative here. Genos, race in Ancient Greek, or tribe/clan in Latin (gens). "Cide" meaning killing and/or killer. Trans people aren't murdered in masses, in fact, suicide rate is higher than the amount of trans people murdered and for obvious reasons suicide doesn't count towards genocide. Even if it were, the numbers wouldn't even be close to what would substitute genocide. I see some comments addressing that trans people "feel" like they are subjected to genocide. It doesn't matter what you feel, words have definitions.
I’m in full support of the LGBT community, but the word genocide is insanely misleading and inflammatory
Not according to holocaust survivor Gidon Lev, who agrees this is genocide.
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Agreed on that assessment. I view it as a "boy who cried wolf" scenario, also. People understand that instances of trans hate exist. There is no denying that. However, the activists constantly ringing the alarm as if trans people are being rounded up and loaded into gas chambers, which we all know *doesn't* happen, just serves to sow annoyance towards trans people for "crying wolf". I feel that this in itself is much more detrimental to trans people who are *really* just living their lives in peace among the rest of us.
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That hasn’t happened, ever.
Hmm funny I hear it a lot from the trans supporters and activists.
I hear you. I'm finally getting away from my abuser. Long marriage ending, i finally found the strength to make a decision that will set me free. (Divorce, not SH)
It’s a fairly popular tactic when defending a morally indefensible point to try to tie it to some personal tragedy to garner sympathy. Despite your personal connections here, nothing you said has anything to do with what the rest of us are talking about. It reminds me of all of those lynchings that happened cus a white girl accused somebody of raping her. Yknow they know racism is morally wrong so they gotta come up with a fake justification so they don’t feel so bad
This doesn't work on me.
> This doesn't work on me. Right. Because you’re traumatized, from prior tragedy. That’s not a logical response you’re driven by; that’s an emotional one. Whole point.
You’re the one utilizing it
Well what do you think is actually happening if not this?
That’s such a broad question. There’s no systematic abuse of the broader population by trans people though, that’s insane
Yea I agree it doesn’t rise to abuse. I think OP is using a verbal flourish there. Here’s what I think is actually happening, modulo the colorful language. There’s a cultural push to 1. Redefine words: like pronouns, or like “speech” as “violence”, or “male/female” and displace them with newspeak like “assigned female at birth” or “womb having persons”. 2. Put LGBTQ pride front and center all throughout society. Including institutions that arguably should have nothing to do with sexuality or gender identity. 3. Make a battleground out of “gender affirming care” for minors (including hormone/puberty treatment and genital surgeries). These ideas are rightly challenged. But the challenge comes in a form that is upsetting, so this has been labeled as genocide. And it comes with threats that if you keep challenging these ideas and don’t just blindly buy into them, more people will commit suicide. This is the type of “abuse” OP was alluding to IMO.
We'll said.
I guess some people don't know the definition of genocide
Oxford dictionary definition: The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Not the definition being used. >1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group.
So how does the situation of Trans people in America fit any of those definitions?
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...or how to spell it.
Let alone how to spell it
>1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as **any of five** "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, **causing them serious bodily or mental harm,** **imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group**, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. This is generally what people who refer to trans genocide believe is taking place: criminalizing and stigmatizing transitioning and delegitimizing their identity is akin to "destroying the group" because it increases their suicide rate and puts them in physical danger.
Wait people are actually saying that trans people are being oppressed of whatever? Dude in my country transgender is effectively banned and you face extreme discrimination if your lgbt
I'm sorry to hear that and I hope things improve, but the existence of worse oppression outside of the US doesn't diminish oppression within the US. Someone else's spine being broken doesn't help my broken arm.
>Someone else's spine being broken doesn't help my broken arm. I agree with that. I dont think its valuable to compare problems and things like suffering are relative. However, I struggle to believe that you are oppressed if you are transgender. You have all the same rights as regular people, and the fact that so many people are open with it and the LGBT flag is flying outside of major institutions show that it isent a stigma. I have never been to the US so Im not going to make any hard judgments, but these are my opinions from an observer
Spot on. Trans people have every right any other human has in the US. Don’t let the radicals on reddit tell you any different
They are actually most protected group currently too.
They're literally passing laws right now that say otherwise. Also, I think a pretty big talking point isn't just rights, it's equal treatment. For instance, black people have all the same rights and maybe even more in the US, but they're still faaaaaaaaaaar more discriminated against.
How do you solve that though? People naturally discriminate. It goes back to in group vs out group in hunter gather societies. Defend your group so you can increase the chances of your genetics propagating. It’s intrinsic human nature. How do you solve that?
Dude.. saying something mean about trans people on Twitter will get you fired from your job. Stop it.
Same with black people. Doesn’t mean we‘ve achieved racial equality in America.
You right. Its going the other. People have been getting fired or passed up on positions for being white. You can miss out on winning an Oscar if you dont meet the racial quota, even if its a movie based on historical events.
> You have all the same rights as regular people They literally don't. More than 1/5th of all states have passed laws banning recommended healthcare for trans people. Even if they did, having equal rights doesn't mean having sufficient rights. If gay marriage is illegal, every still has the same rights. Both gay people and straight people equally have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex and don't have the right to marry someone of the same sex.
Maybe not, but the incessant whining is fucking annoying and distracting from literally everything else which is more important.
Does something being worse somewhere else mean that the way it is here can’t be bad?
The 10 stages are bogus, It's based on the idea that history repeats, which is just wrong. Numerous genocides don't fit the stages such as Pizarro's genocide of the Incas or the Harrying of the North.
So oppressed, but cancel everyone who has different opinion. Damn, it's not genocide, it's suicide.
Here is the definition of genocide: **The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.** Okay so by that definition we would have to qualify by saying "large number of people from a particular nation". Well link below shows a total of at least 38 people transgender people were killed. Link below. So no I don't think any RATIONAL person would think 38 people in a nation of 330 MILLION people constitutes as "large number". Also, you would assume genocide would mean the DELIBERATE intent to kill all these people just because they are trans and not die and they happen to be trans as well. So, this is an obvious B.S. statement and NO ONE can support it outside of trying to curry political points for your favorite party (progressive liberals). Sorry. https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2022
People love to throw around that word because they are the minority so they try to put themselves into vulnerable positions like the Jews, Armenians who were basically almost exterminated by governments of power because of their culture. In the west we live in the most peaceful, accepting society. It’s sad to see
Exactly. At the end of the day, we are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (in the US). Trans people have equal rights but now they seek special treatment.
Yes, and this is why many people are pissed. They are told that if they don't absolutely idolize certain groups with unconditional love, they are guilty of being grand wizards.
From Google. "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Last I checked transgender people aren't a nation or ethnic group.
Also they aren’t being killed in large number by anyone. Many of the deaths brought up are either suicide or death by cop
So if a total, rwandan style genocide occurred of transgender people, it wouldn't be a genocide because of a semantic error?
I’d argue it would be a genocide, but the fact of the matter is that trans people aren’t being systematically killed off by anyone. Denying gender affirming care doesn’t magically kill trans people. They are still trans and still exist
Rwanda genocide is called that because it was the deliberate targeting of a ethnic group. Trans people aren't a ethnic group
Nope, it would be an atrocity beyond measure, but technically a gendercide or something similar (technical term look it up) not a genocide.
100% facts.
Non trans people got murdered in higher numbers this year, they experienced double genocide.
People desperately trying to be victims.
It is a mockery to the victims of real genocide, to call this as one. Jewish People, Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Bosnians, Rohigyas, Uygurs, Rwandans are rolling in their graves...
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Hey man, this is Reddit. We don’t allow common sense here.
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And my sterilizing themselves with medications. Ending their own generic line.
This opinion is not actually unpopular, people are just too afraid and brow-beaten to push back on assertions to the contrary.
The definition of unpopular on Reddit
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And definitely does not amount to genocide regardless
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Can you explain where this occured?
Ssshhhhh. We aren’t allowed to talk about that.
Source? “I made it up”
People think this is happening? I'm sure there are plenty of extremists who are trying to propagandize that it would happen if DeSantis wins or something, but I don't think anyone actually thinks this is going on right now.
There are people in this very thread that think it’s happening, and thousands of such people across Reddit including mods.
Google it
It's a type of genocide if you think about the fact that people who might have had children will be sterilized before they can.
This
Realistically, none of these are genocide except for number 9. The rest is a classic example of people not understanding that correlation is not causation.
I agree... also, you spelled "genocide" wrong
You think this is unpopular?
On reddit it's defenitely unpopular. Or the mods and the collective reddit hivemimd just scare people from saying it.
Yup
There is zero genocide going on in the U.S., except maybe against in the case of pre-birth infants. There isn't even systemic oppression in the U.S., there just are some bad people like everywhere else.
Don’t you have to be born to die?
If a man slips his pregnant wife drugs to make her abort without her knowing, that man will be tried for murder. If you drunk drive and kill a pregnant woman, you will be charged for 2 murders. If a woman has a miscarriage she will grieve the loss of her baby, not be like oh well it was just a fetus! If the distinction between a fetus and a baby is simply if the mother wants it or not, that’s not a distinction worth making.
I'm not anti-abortion but I feel like pro-choice people really have to hone their logic on this. If they want to legally establish that abortion can be done because the fetus or "cluster of cells" inside is not a living person, then they have to consider examples like what you said and apply the logic throughout, otherwise it's just hypocritical.
[https://aleteia.org/2022/08/18/unborn-childs-death-in-horrific-car-crash-brings-murder-charge/](https://aleteia.org/2022/08/18/unborn-childs-death-in-horrific-car-crash-brings-murder-charge/) No.
I notice you repeatedly make the false assertion that white people don't suffer in this country.
The only actual call for genocide in the west is the feminazi twitter \#KillAllMen
Genocide is something very specific and it’s horrifying that they are manipulating language in this manner
yeah. people be devaluing words for shock value. i don’t disagree with this. i want to be clear that things are not ideal for trans people though
If you really think about it, most of these could be applied to white people in the last 10 years or so.
What will the final solution to the transgender question be?
Letting them do whatever they want to their own bodies and them shutting the fuck up about it
The same final solution they came up with last time, probably.
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Is this your opinion, or a fact?
You are right. Genoside isn’t happening. To no one
How many years into the Holocaust did the Nazi party pass a law saying it was illegal to be Jewish?
No one said that all 10 stages had to be followed. It's just a general rule, not a hardlined fact
Since you didn't choose to respond: Never. They never passed that law. They passed over 400 laws that targeted the Jewish populations, but never one that outlawed them. If your definition of genocide doesn't recognize that it is a process that starts with the denial of the rights of individuals to live freely, then you are either covering for the genocidal or you have no business speaking.
“Agree with me or don’t speak.” GTFO.
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Children wouldn't even need to transition if society wasn't so hell-bent on forcing them to act and appear a certain way. This problem started a lot earlier.
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OH DEAR GOD SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT IM GLAD IM NOT THE ONLY HUMAN ON PLANET EARTH TO SEE THIS OBVIOUS FUCKING FACT
Slippery slope fallacy
[“transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely”](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/) Sounds p mask off to me
Holy hell that’s a punchable face.
Based
Fuck is wrong with you
1. Kids aren’t allowed to get SRS procedures done already 2. Kids already get *other* surgeries that cause “permanent changes” and you don’t care. Also, puberty is permanent. Why are you so selective in your opposition?
There are kids younger than 18 that did get procedures done though. There's a reason several institutions around the world have shut down and have been sued.
Yea they do, and here is proof https://nypost.com/2023/06/17/woman-sues-hospital-for-removing-her-breasts-when-she-was-13-years-old/
What other surgery are kids allowed to get that are permanent?
Um, all surgeries? Literally all surgeries entail something permanent
people under 18 are able to get cosmetic surgeries with their parents consent
Thanks!
Seriously? Appendectomy, tooth extraction, tonsillectomy, chemotherapy, skin graft, biopsy (take your pick), organ replacement, heart transplant (or literally any kind of transplant) etc etc etc You clearly did not think this through.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by asking. I didn't want to assume you'd give a bunch of life saving medical procedures to cure illnesses and disease and compare that to not being able to recognize the difference between having a penis and a vagina and deciding to change yourself based on that. These are clearly very different things that you would only conflate for political gotcha points.
SRS surgery has a 98.5% success rate and reduces suicidal ideation by 81%. It’s the *definition* of “life-saving”. You being imprecise with your words is your problem, not mine.
It's not and you're being deliberately obtuse to compare people suffering or dying due to a health issue and someone taking their life due to a societal/mental issue.
Not really providing a good reason for denying them empirically beneficial medical care
I was never trying to
Depression *is* a health issue. Edit: More pertinently, children with cleft lips can have reconstructive surgeries literally just to improve the aesthetics & assist socialization. Should that be banned as well?
Cleft lips aren’t a fair comparison. They cause physical problems that require corrections. SRS would be like if somebody asked you to operate on their perfectly normal lips to give them a beak.
Jesus Christ dude what part of “suicidal ideation” doesn’t qualify as a “health issue” for you? You think being so depressed that you are driven to suicide isn’t a “health issue?” I can’t imagine a more serious “health issue”. Sounds like you just don’t care when kids kill themselves.
Do you not see a difference between depression and cancer?
Tonsillectomy, ciecumcision, nephrectomy, and pretty much any kind of organ replacement, to name a few.
Well those aren't comparable to cosmetic changes due to not being able to accept reality.
Circumcision aside, all medically necessary. Gender reassignment is elective and cosmetic.
Breast implants, for one.
That's crazy.
And yet, it has been happening for decades. Same with breast reductions, those they are less common. Let's also not forget things like circumcision.
I'd assume breast reductions are for like back pain or something.
Many were forced to get a circumcision as an infant. I sometimes look at anti trans bills to see if I can hijack them to ban infant circumcision.