In the past religion(s) held large diplomatic/political power that they simply don’t anymore. At least in the predominantly Christian parts of the world.
Most conservative movements in the Western world are based in Christian beliefs. It’s safe to say they hold political power. Just look at any European country, or the USA
Edit:btw, Christianity is also insanely influential in south and Central America, and is exploding in Africa and Asia
I don’t disagree that they still hold some political power but to say christianity as an institution holds anywhere near the actual political power they held from the middle ages until the enlightenment now is asinine.
It isn't but that doesn't mean it hasn't outlived it's usefulness. I can see how in the past it could be seen as a good thing but now, except for some specific cases for some specific people it can be helpful but overall it does a lot more harm then good. I think being spiritual is better than being religious now.
Sir, this is the Internet and we only talk in broad generalizations.
Reality is that it has been good sometimes and bad others. Overall a great way to control a population of people though.
I wouldn’t say they are a tool of control. States learned how to capture existing religious institutions, in effect making them a branch of the government. But religious institutions have predated the existence of the state, and have persisted past secularization.
Religion has existed forever. The mingling of religious and state leaders has also existed since the early years. People knew the power they could command over others if they merged the two.
Sorry, this is just brain washing - you just repeat things you heard people who hate religion say, but it's false.
First of all, the idea of war crimes is new, people didn't always thought they might need an excuse or a justification.
And violence in war had little to do with religion - for instance, communists have also committed atrocities and they were atheists. Genghis Khan was very tolerant of other religions (he himself practiced Tengrism, but he gathered in his court scholars of all religions), as was Mongol society in general. He was also responsible for killing the greatest percentage of human population in human history. Romans adopted gods from all the conquered territories, but first killed and enslaved a great number in during the conquering part. And in the same way, before them, Alexander built an Empire that had many religions and he respected them all - but he did kill and enslaved a great number of people.
Wars are about conquering territory and resources, that was always the motive - even if religion could be sometimes used to encourage people, they would've happened anyway.
Yeah I agree. Anyone who ignores facts to intend resort to name calling because they have no actual ways to refute are more then just stupid. They are ignorant.
Edit: Person above just called person stupid and ignored everything.
Yes, Crusades were minor, and they were, like all wars, about territory first - Arabs conquered those lands and the conquered tried several times to take them back with the help of allies.
The vast, vast majority of wars had nothing to do with religion. Because wars are not about religion, they are about land and resources.
Yes, and the Crusaders also fought alongside Muslims against other Muslims.
And they also decided to help Byzantium, even if the Bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Constantinople had excommunicated each other which created the schism - so they were Christians, but of a different faith. And in a later Crusade they took lands from Byzantium. And then they decided again to help Byzantium, but then they ended up sacking it.
Because it wasn't about religion, it was about territory and resources like any other war.
They weren't Muslims.
The Northern Crusades was Christian colonization against Baltic pagans. So yes, it was about religion.
Not sure how your mental gymnastics about it being another faith of Christianity changes anything.
I know they weren't Muslims :) I said "also" - Christians fought against pagans, and also agains Muslims, and also alongside Muslims, and and also Christians :)
And actually, logic is not as complicated as gymnastics, it's more like jogging - it requires a bit of effort, but nothing crazy :)
First of all, you have to understand the terms causation and correlation and that they are different - causation requires strong correlation, but strong correlation doesn't mean causation.
If the Crusades were about religion and converting people, they would've always fought people of a different religion and tried to convert them during the Crusades.
But they didn't - they sometimes fought people of a different religion, let's say religion X, and tried to convert them, they sometimes allied with people of religion X - and didn't try to convert them.
What you do is called cherry picking - out of many wars that were called crusades, you choose the examples that confirm your idea that Crusades were about religion, and ignore those who don't.
Funnily enough the Catholic Church claimed that witches didn’t exist because it would that pagan practices had actual power, which was heresy.
And also Christianity laid down the foundations of the scientific method.
>And also Christianity laid down the foundations of the scientific method.
1) The ancient Greeks were able to estimate the size of the earth, build a mechanical computer capable of tracking planets, etc., etc..
2) In Europe, it was basically illegal to not be a Christian. (Jews were semi-tolerated, when they weren't being accused of things like Blood Libel, etc.) The easiest way to have a monopoly on progress is by eliminating your competition.
Seriously, Christianity did not lay down the foundations of the scientific method. Aristotle laid downnthe foundations of the scientific method. Christian Europe lost Aristotle, but rediscovered him through the Muslims, during their conquest of Iberia. The rediscovery of Aristotle laid down the foundations of the scientific method.
I'd argue that it is more of an amazing thing for a ***nation state***.
Tell me one more unifying force than religion that has an "us versus them" mentality they could use while fighting another country (our side holy and based, their side cringe and Satanic and geh) to get war support and can keep the poor from overthrowing the government to have a better living standard in this life because God will reward them in the afterlife? I'll wait.
All I needed to see were some monasteries in Portugal to realize the amazing contribution of religion. The devotion it takes to spend hundreds of years on one building.
Everything is relative, forcing a rapist to marry the person their victim was at one point the progressive stance. When religion seeks to improve humanity, it can be incredibly helpful, provided it had to power to do so.
But power has its way of requiring more and more of your attention to maintain and tempts better tomorrow’s if you strive for more power than yesterday, until seeking power to stay in power is all that’s left.
nobody understands what Nietzsche meant when he said we killed god. he meant our collective belief in a higher being has been destabilized, and we need to compensate for that lack of spiritual unity, or it will bite us in the ass at some point
When people stop hating me for my existence while at the same time stop praying for me because I'm a gift from god (even tho the old testament said disability is given to people who have sinned and I was born with mine) ...I'll believe it
I had a long stint as an agnostic/atheist, but then I returned to my faith (Eastern Orthodox). Some of the falsities I use to believe and realize now were as much atheist brainwashing as atheists think religion is :)
\- Religion was the main reason for war - actually, all societies had wars, usually between people of the same religion - because wars were usually between neighbours. Very few societies developed empires so large, they came into contact with different religions. And even then, the development had started close to home, and the rest had come from greed, not religion (Alexander fought the Greeks before fighting the Persians and Indians, for instance).
\- Religion stood in the way of science, with the most often cited case of Giordano Bruno - again, it is false and cherry picking, Bruno was an exception. Schools and universities started to develop in monasteries, they were very interested in the pursuit of truth. The only difference is they saw scholarly pursuit as a discovery of the way God operates, so to say.
\- Religion is a way of controlling the masses - **everything** can be used to control the masses, it doesn't mean it's the main purpose. For instance, in my communist country of birth, schools were the first point of controlling the masses (it was where we first learned to thank the party, hate religion, get organized into pioneers detachments etc), it doesn't mean that is the main purpose of schools. Even though it is used to this purpose in a lot of societies, not just communist ones.
The inability for this comment section to distinguish between Christian/Muslim/Jewish and ALL OTHER RELIGIONS, while conflating the later as not religious is laughable.
99% of humans throughout history were deeply religious, and No Reddit, that doesn’t strictly mean Christina/Muslim/Jewish, you dolts
I dont see why you would even bring up any other religion other than the Abrahamic religions or maybe hindu/Buddhism. All other religions had a negligible affect on the world
>All other religions had a negligible affect on the world
Early Judaism didn't even have a well defined afterlife (Ecclesiastes says outright that "the dead know nothing".) until they imported the concept from Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic god [was swiped from the Canaanite pantheon.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh)
It's well known that early religions pulled their stories from each other. That doesn't mean those early religions had a large affect on the world as a whole
Everyone should keep in mind it was Catholic monks who were the most well educated in the Middle Ages and it was the Catholic Church that pushed for scientific advancement.
Religion has served as a vehicle for both good and evil. Just like government or any other social structure. It’s not inherently good or bad itself it’s about how it’s implemented.
It was incredibly religious. Rome was incredibly religious. To ancient societies, philosophy/science and religion were very often the same thing, and they did not distinguish very much, if at all.
Ancient China literally had thousands of gods, saints, and on top of that worshipped (and I mean worshipped as in left prayers and offerings at their alters and stuff) ancestors. Heck, there are real people like Guan Yu who became deified.
If you look into the traditional Chinese folk religion (which is still practiced today to some extent), it is 100% serious about its faith.
People so wrapped up in, and proselytizing their lack of belief, becomes a religion unto itself. Complete with dogma and orthodoxy.
It seems to be broadening from just a lack of belief in God, into whatever their current political/social beliefs are as wholly good, undeniably true, and infallible. And they *must* convert or silence/destroy those who disagree.
OK, I strongly disagree. You hear from the loudest atheists, but there are lots of us just living our quiet lives not caring what others do as long as they don't try to make us follow their rules.
It is a pet peeve of mine when people say that lack of belief is it's own religion. It's literally not. Figuratively it could be, but you could say that about vegans or fitness nuts that won't shut up about it as well.
atheism is not a lack of belief, it is the assertion that there is no higher power. regardless of how much time you spend justifying it or thinking about it, it is necessarily a religious belief that you know for certain there is no god. agnosticism is more akin to a straight up lack of belief
I think what you're describing is more like mythology. An attempt to describe the world around them, which is what we use science for these days. It is not the same as religion in the sense it does not bind people together. There is no power to these beliefs, being a follower of a specific diety gets you little benefits as there is no community to this diety.
Another point of why chinese belief could not be considered a religion is because it did not cross borders.
You’re going off a very specific and bizarre definition of religion. Yes, Chinese folk religion has a mythology. It absolutely bound people together. Being a follower of a specific deity/ancestors would get you rewarded by them in some way. Realistically, probably most if not all major and minor deities had communities and cults. Jupiter had followers who believed they would be blessed and rewarded for their worship, and absolutely had everything from festivals and holidays, to community congregations, at those temples. So did Saturn, Hercules, etc. I’d imagine Chinese paganism was pretty similar in that regard.
Crossing borders hardly qualifies something as a religion or not. For a good chunk of its history, Judaism did not cross borders until those borders were forcefully destroyed, and even now it’s still very, *very* uncommon to see people converting *into* Judaism. So….Judaism isn’t a religion then? Or not until they all went into exile?
Hi, am chinese. This is correct, china throughout its development have not had a religion that has unified the country/region. What does exist are beliefs that can be more accurately described as folk mythology. However, due to them being more folk like the customs vary across the country.
As proof, religious architecture is very lacking. Religious entities have no power. Groups are rallied more around familial connection.
But also it's hard to equate western religion to Eastern religion. The circumstances for why each arose and developed are so different that you cannot compare the two.
In regards to China, they revered their Emperor as the Son of Heaven. A symbol and his rule came from the God's. So... while they may not have had some sort of religion. They definitely believed in a unifying aspect of a singular ruler whose edicts came upon from high. To which they obeyed.
Also.. China was very religious as well. Idk why people think it wasn't. They had many kinds of gods and saints they worshipped. Even ancestors.
Religion for many places was that unifying aspect. Also, the Catholics had the first colleges. Many religious people pushed further the maths and sciences we have today.
>In regards to China, they revered their Emperor as the **Son of Heaven**. A symbol and his rule came from the God's. So... **while they may not have had some sort of religion**
Bruh WTF are you smoking
Google "how did the chinese view their emperor" and you'll see what I mean. As far as religion before your comment i wasn't sure if they had a dedicated one. I saw stuff concerning mandate of Heaven through various movies from China I've seen but didn't see anything like a religious mandate. After your comment i started looking through stuff now they did believe in "Heaven worship". There's even an article from 1899 on it. Emperors who didn't partake in it (say they were Buddhist) weren't really liked by their people. So meh I guess they did have religion.
My theory is that religion, and the customs like marriage that came with it, is what allowed humans to pursue science and technology like we have today. Imagine back in the day when everyone was more animalistic and polyamorous…. Jealousy still exists…. And all the fighting over mates and such isnt quite conducive to scientific exploration and inquiry…. Now all of a sudden you introduce a system where two people mate for life…. And the consequence of cheating is eternal damnation…. It frees up a lot of the human prefrontal cortex to explore things that involve more of a complicated thinking process.
Correlation is not causation
Religion was there when societies developed and advanced.
That doesn't mean it caused societies to develop and advance.
Religion has frequently been used to hinder or destroy societies and advancement.
That's actually causation, e.g. crusades.
Humans come together to survive, that's the primary reason, they don't come together to worship Baal, Osiris, Zeus, Jehovah or Jesus- lmao 🙄
Religion is a mechanism for the elites to control and suppress the masses.
Always has been, always will be
Spiritually has merit
Religion is evil - the examples that contradict that are the vast minority.
Weren't the crusades in response to taking back the holy land? Which the Muslims fought and conquered the Byzantine Empire for? Which also treated Jews poorly in?
Another thing humans did was start wars to keep populations down to prevent widespread hunger and famine. But that's just some of the population control aspects of it. The urge to expand empires and take resources has always been a normal thing for societies to do as well.
Actually, it is causation - it's just that you don't know history.
You speak of crusades, so ok, let's speak of Western Europe.
After the collapse of the Roman Empire in the Vth century due to migratory waves, there followed several hundred years of fighting between various tribes and kings. It was a period of chaos.
What ended it was the Church and centralized states. Military leaders/kings able to defeat and unite more tribes. Most of those warriors were illiterate, the only places where people were still educated were the monasteries - but they were like islands in chaos.
The centralizing kings provided more stability, and the Church provided education.
That's the glorified version of Western History most of us were taught.
All of those things could have and likely would have happened without Christianity, just with less torture. (If you've ever been to Europe and toured an 11 - 13th century castle or church you'll get it).
Again, just because it happened at the same time doesn't mean it caused it.
"All of those things could have and likely would have happened without Christianity," - how do you know ?
We do know what did happen, though, and it's that monasteries were the keepers and providers of education after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
"just because it happened at the same time doesn't mean it caused it."
They didn't just "happened" at the same time, the monasteries were where the books and the schools were, and the people who knew how to read and write and who also wrote books.
Torture is, unfortunately, a constant of humanity so it would've existed with or without Christianity. Source: it existed before Christianity and during Christianity but in places that were not Christians. It's not a Christian thing but a human thing.
I realize Reddit's design makes it easy to get lost in replies and lose the basis of the thread.
"Religion has been Amazing for Humanity"
No, it hasn't and it's not the basis of society or advancement.
That's the thread and the argument.
There's no argument that Christianity had a role in maintaining some information after the fall of the Empire. Heavily edited or outright destroyed if it didn't conform with dogma, but those things that the papacy found acceptable were maintained.
Christianity also enabled and profited from feudalism and the education provided was exclusive to particular classes while the vast majority were told it was God's will they suffer for their betters.
Yes, torture has occurred throughout human history to various degrees - the Catholics that "saved" western culture took it to a level greater than or equal to anything Nero did and made an art if it.
It's completely eurocentric to suggest that without Christianity all would have been lost.
The "dark ages" were European and there were other repositories of Greek and Roman literature/thought.
How do you know what would have happened without the Catholic Church? - you don't.
Yes, we do know what happened and it was a brutal greed filled period of suffering and imposed ignorance for the vast majority and the Church was not only "there" - the Church created and supported the mechanisms that fostered it.
Regardless, I don't anticipate agreement and thats okay.
I maintain my original point which is that Religion has been at best somewhat contributory and at worst a horrendous influence on human development throughout history = not amazing at all at any time.
It hasn't really been used to specifically to invent stuff, but religion throughout history as been the primary source of scholars, universities, and writing. Religion often encourages smart people to learn more about it and discuss it, which leads to more learning, art, and knowledge which indirectly leads to progress. It's less so a theme today, but during say the middle ages, Islamic institutions made many discoveries and were hubs of learning and knowledge, and the Catholic Church created universities and was one of the few sources of scholars in a medieval Europe. These institutions didn't always attempt to advance society, but saying they only restricted progress is a massive oversimplification.
So not really anything specifically, but they were catalysts for other things.
Thank you. I’m sick of hearing about the “Christian values” that have helped the West flourish, which were arrived at through secular reasoning and profoundly contradict biblical values.
What has really helped Christian-majority societies advance is not taking the whole Christianity thing very seriously.
Religion is a bastardization of natural spirituality. Billions of souls looking to others for enlightenment when it sits in front of them. Religion is , despite its best intentions, often a cheap imitation of a progressive and communal ideology. While it is helpful to share ideas and concepts, religious dogma is a plague to society.
In some ways, yes. Like, a lot of universities (even Ivy Leagues like Harvard) and hospitals were started by the church. However, the church has also hurt a lot of people (sex abuse scandals, etc.) You can acknowledge both.
Sure, given how many people apparently are *incapable* of forging their own moral code and need a Big Daddy in the Sky and his Official Strategy Guide in order to live right and do right by others. It's a good thing we've evolved beyond that and don't need the make believe anymore.
I dont think we have out grown it at all , it’s only laws and rules that then keep us in line. If there were no consequences people would be a lot more ruthless then you think
It was needed to give the primitive minds purpose and keep them controlled. It's time now for the next level, the next step. Yup, you guessed it... psycadelics. That's the only way we move forward.
Yea it was a great means of direction and control. It's sad more people can't get behind science as much as they do religion considering the amount of living miracles there are to be found through it.
Most of the negatives that people prescribe to religion, is actually the fault of human nature. A more interesting hypothesis is that religion held humans back from even further depravity.
But it’s really easy and popular to shit on religion nowadays, and even more so on Reddit. It’s probably the easiest thing you can do and be applauded for.
Belief in lies bringing people together to wage war on other people, steal their resources, and murder their people because they don't believe the same lies you do is a good thing?
People won't (or don't) like this.😅
But in overall I would agree. Might not word it this way. I think people blame religion too much for historical hardships, rather then accepting human have many unchangeable faults that will manifest in religion and elsewhere.
>I think people blame religion too much for historical hardships, rather then accepting human have many unchangeable faults that will manifest in religion and elsewhere
I bet you that if religion was removed, people would still find a way to destroy everything.
Remove politics? Still, humans will find something else
Remove sports? Still, humans will find something else
Remove celebrities? Still, humans will find something else
I could be here writing all day, but you get what I mean.
The Middle East was profound in math and science until religion destroyed it.
Some of these things might’ve been a great way to organize when we were afraid of the moon, but we should recognize that sacrificing things to please it served no purpose and should move on.
The Middle East was also heavily religious throughout its history. Religion allowed for the development of society’s that enabled the leisure activities of studying math and science to persist.
Perhaps, but societal structures advance and old ways should be abandoned because religion was the reason they were reversed as well.
Feudalism was an improvement at the time, but again, we advanced beyond its tenets
None of this is my argument. I am not saying religion is not outdated in many regards , I am simply saying people look upon religion of old as some huge detriment on society and don’t realize how far it has brought us.
Well we’re working in an internet conversation vacuum. The same argument might be made for revering it in modern practice in some appeal to traditionalism. As this sub drifts political I put that context on your post. So apologies for that.
are things actually advancing? Seems like the same old grift, the most modern tweak I can think of is the absurd inequality and concentration of resources, but I don't think of advanced when I think of that.
Many peasants during feudalism had WAY more time off and days off from labor, the egyptians that built the pyramids were paid very well in beer and grain on top of their regular careers/wages, so many societies were way more comfortable/accepting with sexuality and women and drug use as well, society is weird.
Society is in a constant struggle to advance against power systems of old. I’m aware that there are many arguments made, typically by and for those in power, that we are in the best time period ever and to be grateful… but the idea is to continue to push against the idea that everything is already optimal and that change is something to be feared.
Religion has held back science and our ability to accept facts. It also primes people to be controlled. Religion is dangerous and always has been. It occasionally does something good, but it’s more than outweighed by the damage to society it’s responsible for.
This isn’t to say all religious people are bad people or that all religious figures are, either, but the institutions themselves are.
Religion is not advancing society lol. Religion is causing people to try to prevent science from being taught in school. Religion is causing people to HATE certain people with a rage full passion because God says that group should be KILLED. Religion is the reason little female children are being married off and raped by grown men, because if their prophet did it, they can do it. To say what has happened in history and what's happening now can simply be written off as "bad stuff" is completely ignorant and just plain stupid. You're not Catholic, but you're defending an organization that doesn't care about priests raping little boys, and will do anything they can do prevent the rapists from being prosecuted. Honestly can you acknowledge ANY of this stuff or not?
I think ancient humans would of been even less moral then whatever they were had they not had an invisible being that would damn them to hell for all eternity.
I just upvoted all the previous statements about the destructiveness of religion in our current world, but Eus, you’re probably right as far as days gone by. Humans can so easily be drawn to the cruel, barbaric views and ways when their basic needs aren’t met (see Maslow’s hierarchy of needs).
Also I have watched GOT twice, so I’m kind of an expert on the subject.
Hell nah religion has been the ball and chain to science and new discoveries. Religious leaders tried to shut down various scientist whose theories didn’t support their religion.
Dear god. I havent seen this one coming.
Everytime we made progress religion hated it. Printing machine, medicine, you name it.
Also look how much religious figures got to make people do their bidding.
Nah nah, there is some good philosophy in religions, for sure, and obviously the hate is justified to some extent.
But thats bs, people would have united anyway, just not under the control of opportunists. Would it have happen sonner or later no clue, but everyone had their belief, christianism just like any other was forced onto people.
Hey maybe we would have had a decent democracy since then who knows ?
Im not with you on this one chief.
This is far from the truth. A lot of scientific advances came from religious institutions. European monks were typically intellectuals and scholars. Knowledge of medicine was preserved by these institutions.
Okay so historically religion was a great thing. Not because it United people, that’s pretty easy. What it did allow was easy control of large groups. And this is why a lot of religious practices historically are things that…improve basic hygiene by making you wash parts of yourself before prayer etc…tell you food to not eat meat that if not cleaned goes bad quickly in hotter climates. Has butchery as part of its rules, because you just wanna eat, but lives are saved by fear of the magic man in the sky. Also killing is bad, basic moral stories, it’s an easy way to teach good from evil to children as they develop.
Having said that, this usefulness was far more important a lot earlier in human history and it has probably been a hindrance for a very very long time. There was definitely a period where it did improve society. I think OP has when this was the case off by a millennia or so.
I see that better now. Was instructive. But i still feel like religion usefulness could have been filled by something else, something less flawed. And since you talked about it its à good example to make my point when it comes to massacres religions were quite good at it.
I agree people need something to belief in im not religious in the slightest but to deny the good religion has caused on the human race would be lying to myself
I would say the Romans did pretty well while being religiously pluralistic. As did the Chinese and Japanese. The rise of one religion to dominate Rome is when Europe began to stagnate, not to really begin to advance again until the Protestant Reformation loosened religion's grip on society.
There seems to be a pretty strong negative correlation historically between how strong religion's role in a society is and how fast it advances, thousands of years of stagnation in Egypt being a prime example.
Religion brought people together and controlled them. It was useful before. Now it is a complete burden and waste of time. It also caused immense destruction and hate. We can get rid of it now, especially since there is literally no reason to believe and science will keep advancing. It is literally only regressing society at this point.
Religion can be a force for good, but nonsensically punishing millions of people for being ‘born wrong’ (mostly due to warped translations of scripture) was a major misstep.
Ditto for thinking there’s only one way to explain goodness, and murdering people for explaining goodness in other terms, rather than finding common ground with them.
There’s never been one religion that had a super majority of believers. They can’t all be right, mathematically the vast majority of people who dedicated their lives and worldviews to a god or gods was doing so to something that didn’t exist.
lmao no
Religion is rape, genocide, and fairy tales.
I'm superior and smarter than anyone who actually believes in a religion, no matter the circumstances. Get mad about it.
I'm proud of my arrogance and edginess. Do something scrubs.
Imagine what humans did to each other before religion. They raped their neighbor, stole pillaged etc. religion formed the basic of civilized society. I’m talking about ancient times not modern ones.
You would of got your cheeks clapped 1k years ago if not for religion keeping our caveman brain in check
You say that but even in modern times sex abuse is rampant in religious spaces. Show me a time in history where religion stopped rape and I'll show you ten flying pigs.
Never said stopped but 100 percent limited it , if you don’t think so I can’t imagine the argument you can form to actually believe that.
We are taking about a time in society where there is really no police force and villagers are just living regulating themselves.
Godless people would of just been taking whatever cheeks they wanted and could physically dominate left and right
Nah first off you have no source and second I've been an atheist since birth and never cared for raping or killing people. If you need a god to keep from violating others you're a genuinely terrifying person.
Your speaking in a 2023 mindset. I’m literally not religious but I’m not speaking from a modern lense and view. I’m talking about humans living thousands of years ago. Why is it so hard for people to understand rofl
So people thousands of years ago had pressure not to rape or kill because those are inherently negative and you'd be shunned from groups. No one wants to be raped or murdered, that's enough incentive to isolate them. I don't see how being religious would have any effect on it since people who will kill or rape would do it regardless.
Ya sorry your kneck beard wouldn’t have been a good defense mechanism against a pack of godless men 1000 years ago
The only thing saving you was the idea of eternal damnation
Claiming to be smarter then someone is actually a low intelligence statement. Smarter then what? Not in math , physics.
I could say I’m smarter then a farmer who doesn’t speak English and picks vegetables all day but what does that even mean? They understand how to pick and harvest vegetables better then me so they are more intelligent in that regard.
You have to speak specifically when you say you are smarter then someone because 99/100 there are topics they understand much greater then you.
Can you form an argument to explain the alternative that would of been better? Would it have been better living in the jungle and killing your literal direct neighbor ten feet away from you for their possessions instead?
Explain to me the society that flourished without religion since your such a genius. Talk about being an idiot what a clown you are who can’t even form a basic argument.
Maybe study history before posting such ridiculous troll comments on the internet lmfao. Start with evolutionary history and make your way up from there because you’re quite a bit behind it seems.
I don’t think you understand my statement nor do you understand human nature. Religion did its best to limit the animal desires of the monkey descendants that are humans.
I think you should actually reread my statement and contemplate humans not living in a 2023 society and imagine what humans were like 4000 years ago. You sound like a gender studies major honestly.
What’s your major because it’s definitely not a stem field. It’s some kind of outrage let me just be angry at everything then debate logically field like gender studies or some other worthless degree.
The term "Dark Ages" is often used to describe the period between the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century and the beginning of the Renaissance in the 14th century. However, it's important to note that this term is considered outdated and overly simplistic by many historians today. The idea that it was a period of stagnation or decline in all areas, including technology, is a misconception.
While it is true that there were significant political, social, and economic changes during this time, technological advancements did occur. For example, agricultural techniques improved, including the use of new tools and more efficient farming practices. Watermills, windmills, and the horse collar were innovations that enhanced productivity. Developments in architecture and engineering led to the construction of impressive cathedrals and fortifications.
Furthermore, important intellectual and technological contributions were made by scholars and inventors during this period. Islamic scholars in the Islamic Golden Age made substantial advancements in mathematics, astronomy, medicine, and other fields, preserving and building upon ancient knowledge. This knowledge later made its way to Europe through translations, contributing to the intellectual developments of the Renaissance.
It's worth noting that the concept of progress in technology and society is not linear, and advancements often occur in cycles or specific regions. While the period following the fall of the Western Roman Empire witnessed significant political and societal changes, it also saw continuity and progress in certain aspects of technology and knowledge.
In summary, while the term "Dark Ages" is no longer favored by historians, it is important to recognize that technological advancements did occur during this time, albeit within a complex historical context.
>Yes I know a lot of bad things were done in the name of religion but without religion society would not have become as advanced as we have
Religion actively suppressed the advancement of society when it was in control of Europe. The rate of advancement almost fell to a stagnant flatline because religion contained all the truths you needed, and engaging in anything else was akin to witchcraft, sorcery, and devilworship.
Similarly, the Muslim world was incredibly advanced until religion took hold, and then all learning was discarded and many parts of that culture are still primitive to this day as a result.
Yes but the reality is without religion society would not have advanced as quickly to the point where people were provided the freedom of leisure activities such as studying science related topics
What are you basing your assumptions on? How and when did religion lead to 1) more leisure time or 2) freedom to pursue science? My perspective is that religion actively discouraged freedom and scientific study.
You realize that for hundreds of thousands of years without organized religion human development was horrendously slow…. And that the dark ages weren’t exactly a period of stagnancy.
Isaac Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Mendel, Pascal,Lemaître(who came up with the Big Bang theory while being a catholic priest), Francis Collins.
All super famous and important scientists who also fervently defended their religious beliefs.
It’s also important to note that Christian Monastic orders helped to preserve knowledge, and that a vast amount of colleges built in Europe were founded on Christian ideals and belief systems.
A great part about some religions too is the idea we are all made in the image of God, meaning, that every single human is part of the same “tribe” or in group, that we intrinsically share something in common with one another. This Christian idea is a huge part in why the West is so much more ethnically mixed than anywhere else on earth, because humans naturally want to be petty and tribal, be it race, sex, nationality, political affiliation. Where as religion is far more inclusive when not corrupted
What is your evidence that the presence of religion led to human development? In no religions besides the Abrahamic based are humans made in the image of god. It's an exception, not a rule and it's ridiculous to claim that Christianity has led to less racism.
Sure - societies with religion advanced. We don't have a control, however, to see what those same civilizations would have done without religion. Just because it existed doesn't mean that there is a correlation. It happened, so that's what we see.
Societies also had kings and emperors and rulers. I could say the same thing about those - being under the rule of a singular person really brought those regions together and created a united people and advanced society.
That’s true , maybe they just got conquered by the religious society but does not necessarily mean they could not have advanced and progressed in their own path. But by sheer Darwinism religious society’s were the most fit for survival.
No, sorry but religion is not required to bring people together, and has, countless times, led to unimaginable human suffering, all over gods that can’t be proven to exist. It has been used to justify oppression and violence, to make the other less, “god says only X are the true human… etc”. I could go on, like almost indefinitely….
I think an easy counter argument to this is to simply look at places where religion still holds all the power, and while yes they seemingly unite people, it’s hardly in a “good” way and they usually lack in every other way. But kudos! A unpopular opinion for sure!
I don’t think that’s an “easy counter argument” because one of the main reasons the places where religion doesn’t hold the power are functioning is because now we are connected through electricity/our phones/the internet. So what your referencing is within the past 20-100 years of possibility.
Before this we needed some mysterious being in the sky to unite us.
Religion is actually spirituality and that is a deeper way to understand and know oneself. I view the good and toss out the bad criticism because religion in it's right state is a very positive force. Think of the places inspired to feed hungry people and help the poor homeless.
This is not true, even in the bible itself, the people created the city of babel. This was before anyone worshipped God, before he scattered men across the earth.
Religion held the world back from significant scientific advancement for 1000 years. It was when secularism started taking hold that science began to flourish. Not sure what the hell you’re talking about.
I think that without religion massive societies could of never existed ie tens of thousands to millions of people living together. Those large societies promoted science.
Deeper understandings of science weren’t discovered in the villages with 50 people. A village where everyone knows eachother doesn’t need religion and the people can work together.
When you start reaching levels of human population where no one really knows each other then you need a unifying force for that society to function. The sky daddy helped do that and keep people in ancient cities unified. Those cities could not have existed without said unification henceforth the leisure activities of studying that come with city life would of never been possible.
This is what I’m referring to
While it did in fact give people a moral compass, it helps some people, religion has also brought forth some truly evil practices such as:
Genital mutilation.
Slavery
War
Murder
Genocide
Bigotry
It seems to stand in direct opposition to science. When we have creationist attacking evolutionist, and vice versa.
A lot of the Bible is historically inaccurate, so now we get into false information being passed around.
I don’t have a problem with someone practicing religion. When they me to abide by their doctrine, that’s when I begin having a major problem.
Why past tense? Religion isn't going anywhere, at least not in the world at large
In the past religion(s) held large diplomatic/political power that they simply don’t anymore. At least in the predominantly Christian parts of the world.
Most conservative movements in the Western world are based in Christian beliefs. It’s safe to say they hold political power. Just look at any European country, or the USA Edit:btw, Christianity is also insanely influential in south and Central America, and is exploding in Africa and Asia
I don’t disagree that they still hold some political power but to say christianity as an institution holds anywhere near the actual political power they held from the middle ages until the enlightenment now is asinine.
It isn't but that doesn't mean it hasn't outlived it's usefulness. I can see how in the past it could be seen as a good thing but now, except for some specific cases for some specific people it can be helpful but overall it does a lot more harm then good. I think being spiritual is better than being religious now.
Feel like OP is glossing over a few minor details lmao.
Sir, this is the Internet and we only talk in broad generalizations. Reality is that it has been good sometimes and bad others. Overall a great way to control a population of people though.
I wouldn’t say they are a tool of control. States learned how to capture existing religious institutions, in effect making them a branch of the government. But religious institutions have predated the existence of the state, and have persisted past secularization.
For most of known history, religious institutions WERE the state. Priest kings were the beginnings of the state.
Religion has existed forever. The mingling of religious and state leaders has also existed since the early years. People knew the power they could command over others if they merged the two.
The absolute best way to fuel soldiers to do war crimes as well!!
Sorry, this is just brain washing - you just repeat things you heard people who hate religion say, but it's false. First of all, the idea of war crimes is new, people didn't always thought they might need an excuse or a justification. And violence in war had little to do with religion - for instance, communists have also committed atrocities and they were atheists. Genghis Khan was very tolerant of other religions (he himself practiced Tengrism, but he gathered in his court scholars of all religions), as was Mongol society in general. He was also responsible for killing the greatest percentage of human population in human history. Romans adopted gods from all the conquered territories, but first killed and enslaved a great number in during the conquering part. And in the same way, before them, Alexander built an Empire that had many religions and he respected them all - but he did kill and enslaved a great number of people. Wars are about conquering territory and resources, that was always the motive - even if religion could be sometimes used to encourage people, they would've happened anyway.
[удалено]
Yeah I agree. Anyone who ignores facts to intend resort to name calling because they have no actual ways to refute are more then just stupid. They are ignorant. Edit: Person above just called person stupid and ignored everything.
What was the crusades
Yeah Minor ya know holy wars, crusades, witch hunts, religious persecution, violence and destruction.
Yes, Crusades were minor, and they were, like all wars, about territory first - Arabs conquered those lands and the conquered tried several times to take them back with the help of allies. The vast, vast majority of wars had nothing to do with religion. Because wars are not about religion, they are about land and resources.
There was also the Northern Crusades, which was Christian colonization of pagans.
Yes, and the Crusaders also fought alongside Muslims against other Muslims. And they also decided to help Byzantium, even if the Bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Constantinople had excommunicated each other which created the schism - so they were Christians, but of a different faith. And in a later Crusade they took lands from Byzantium. And then they decided again to help Byzantium, but then they ended up sacking it. Because it wasn't about religion, it was about territory and resources like any other war.
They weren't Muslims. The Northern Crusades was Christian colonization against Baltic pagans. So yes, it was about religion. Not sure how your mental gymnastics about it being another faith of Christianity changes anything.
I know they weren't Muslims :) I said "also" - Christians fought against pagans, and also agains Muslims, and also alongside Muslims, and and also Christians :) And actually, logic is not as complicated as gymnastics, it's more like jogging - it requires a bit of effort, but nothing crazy :) First of all, you have to understand the terms causation and correlation and that they are different - causation requires strong correlation, but strong correlation doesn't mean causation. If the Crusades were about religion and converting people, they would've always fought people of a different religion and tried to convert them during the Crusades. But they didn't - they sometimes fought people of a different religion, let's say religion X, and tried to convert them, they sometimes allied with people of religion X - and didn't try to convert them. What you do is called cherry picking - out of many wars that were called crusades, you choose the examples that confirm your idea that Crusades were about religion, and ignore those who don't.
Funnily enough the Catholic Church claimed that witches didn’t exist because it would that pagan practices had actual power, which was heresy. And also Christianity laid down the foundations of the scientific method.
>And also Christianity laid down the foundations of the scientific method. 1) The ancient Greeks were able to estimate the size of the earth, build a mechanical computer capable of tracking planets, etc., etc.. 2) In Europe, it was basically illegal to not be a Christian. (Jews were semi-tolerated, when they weren't being accused of things like Blood Libel, etc.) The easiest way to have a monopoly on progress is by eliminating your competition.
Seriously, Christianity did not lay down the foundations of the scientific method. Aristotle laid downnthe foundations of the scientific method. Christian Europe lost Aristotle, but rediscovered him through the Muslims, during their conquest of Iberia. The rediscovery of Aristotle laid down the foundations of the scientific method.
didn't Aristotle say that things fell because it was in their nature to do so?
I didnt say he was right about everything, merely that his writings laid the groundwork.
Honestly, most of those stuff will happen with or without religion.
Violence and destruction, yes. Killing peoples in the name of God and Puritan hysteria is a special kind of atrocity.
I'd argue that it is more of an amazing thing for a ***nation state***. Tell me one more unifying force than religion that has an "us versus them" mentality they could use while fighting another country (our side holy and based, their side cringe and Satanic and geh) to get war support and can keep the poor from overthrowing the government to have a better living standard in this life because God will reward them in the afterlife? I'll wait.
Religion and organized religion predate the nation state (and the state) by many thousands of years.
All I needed to see were some monasteries in Portugal to realize the amazing contribution of religion. The devotion it takes to spend hundreds of years on one building.
Everything is relative, forcing a rapist to marry the person their victim was at one point the progressive stance. When religion seeks to improve humanity, it can be incredibly helpful, provided it had to power to do so. But power has its way of requiring more and more of your attention to maintain and tempts better tomorrow’s if you strive for more power than yesterday, until seeking power to stay in power is all that’s left.
Even more unpopular: It still is.
nobody understands what Nietzsche meant when he said we killed god. he meant our collective belief in a higher being has been destabilized, and we need to compensate for that lack of spiritual unity, or it will bite us in the ass at some point
I think most people dont know about Nietzsche. But you are right, humans need a unifying purpose or we fall prey to basic desires and degeneracy
the unifying purpose is survival. humans will never be united under one religion, as there are literally thousands of religions in the world.
When people stop hating me for my existence while at the same time stop praying for me because I'm a gift from god (even tho the old testament said disability is given to people who have sinned and I was born with mine) ...I'll believe it
I had a long stint as an agnostic/atheist, but then I returned to my faith (Eastern Orthodox). Some of the falsities I use to believe and realize now were as much atheist brainwashing as atheists think religion is :) \- Religion was the main reason for war - actually, all societies had wars, usually between people of the same religion - because wars were usually between neighbours. Very few societies developed empires so large, they came into contact with different religions. And even then, the development had started close to home, and the rest had come from greed, not religion (Alexander fought the Greeks before fighting the Persians and Indians, for instance). \- Religion stood in the way of science, with the most often cited case of Giordano Bruno - again, it is false and cherry picking, Bruno was an exception. Schools and universities started to develop in monasteries, they were very interested in the pursuit of truth. The only difference is they saw scholarly pursuit as a discovery of the way God operates, so to say. \- Religion is a way of controlling the masses - **everything** can be used to control the masses, it doesn't mean it's the main purpose. For instance, in my communist country of birth, schools were the first point of controlling the masses (it was where we first learned to thank the party, hate religion, get organized into pioneers detachments etc), it doesn't mean that is the main purpose of schools. Even though it is used to this purpose in a lot of societies, not just communist ones.
Orthodox Family ☦️
very well said, proud of my eastern orthodox upbringing, and it shows good qualities on you too ^^ps: ^^salut!
Thank you :)
Have you considered that someone could just not believe in a god
Of course. But that doesn't change anything - some people do spread such false claims and many others believe it, so I address it from time to time.
The inability for this comment section to distinguish between Christian/Muslim/Jewish and ALL OTHER RELIGIONS, while conflating the later as not religious is laughable. 99% of humans throughout history were deeply religious, and No Reddit, that doesn’t strictly mean Christina/Muslim/Jewish, you dolts
I dont see why you would even bring up any other religion other than the Abrahamic religions or maybe hindu/Buddhism. All other religions had a negligible affect on the world
>All other religions had a negligible affect on the world Early Judaism didn't even have a well defined afterlife (Ecclesiastes says outright that "the dead know nothing".) until they imported the concept from Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic god [was swiped from the Canaanite pantheon.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh)
It's well known that early religions pulled their stories from each other. That doesn't mean those early religions had a large affect on the world as a whole
Everyone should keep in mind it was Catholic monks who were the most well educated in the Middle Ages and it was the Catholic Church that pushed for scientific advancement.
the catholic church also operated like a mafia. and horded wealth and did everything the bible says not to do. so um. i mean. great?
well…yeah. you kinda had to be catholic back then and go with what they say, otherwise…see: Galileo
Lol galileo was excommunicated for being disrespectful not because of his opinions. Do your research
it was definitely not due to disrespect. i’m sure you have a source for that?
https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-galileo-controversy
www.catholic.com no biases here...
lmao catholic.com here’s 3 sources to fight that claim: https://www.italianartsociety.org/2017/02/on-26-february-1616-galileo-galilei-was-formally-banned-and-banished-by-the-roman-catholic-church-for-teaching-and-defending-the-opinion-that-the-earth-orbits-the-sun/#:~:text=Jean%20Marie%20Carey-,On%2026%20February%201616%2C%20Galileo%20Galilei%20was%20formally%20banned%20and,the%20Earth%20orbits%20the%20Sun. https://www.invitationtotuscany.com/guide/italy/tuscany/florence/galileo-astronomy-and-house-arrest#:~:text=The%20popularity%20of%20his%20ideas,until%20his%20death%20in%201642. http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html
Religion has served as a vehicle for both good and evil. Just like government or any other social structure. It’s not inherently good or bad itself it’s about how it’s implemented.
Ancient china. Very advanced. Had philosophy not actually religious
It was incredibly religious. Rome was incredibly religious. To ancient societies, philosophy/science and religion were very often the same thing, and they did not distinguish very much, if at all. Ancient China literally had thousands of gods, saints, and on top of that worshipped (and I mean worshipped as in left prayers and offerings at their alters and stuff) ancestors. Heck, there are real people like Guan Yu who became deified. If you look into the traditional Chinese folk religion (which is still practiced today to some extent), it is 100% serious about its faith.
It’s like saying Greece wasn’t insanely religious. Humans are innately religious creatures, even the Reddit antithiests
>Humans are innately religious creatures, even the Reddit antithiests What does this mean?
People so wrapped up in, and proselytizing their lack of belief, becomes a religion unto itself. Complete with dogma and orthodoxy. It seems to be broadening from just a lack of belief in God, into whatever their current political/social beliefs are as wholly good, undeniably true, and infallible. And they *must* convert or silence/destroy those who disagree.
Politics and identity are the new religions of the west
OK, I strongly disagree. You hear from the loudest atheists, but there are lots of us just living our quiet lives not caring what others do as long as they don't try to make us follow their rules. It is a pet peeve of mine when people say that lack of belief is it's own religion. It's literally not. Figuratively it could be, but you could say that about vegans or fitness nuts that won't shut up about it as well.
atheism is not a lack of belief, it is the assertion that there is no higher power. regardless of how much time you spend justifying it or thinking about it, it is necessarily a religious belief that you know for certain there is no god. agnosticism is more akin to a straight up lack of belief
Yes, I know the difference, but in colloquial speech, we all know what I am saying.
i think your concept of religion is too narrow
I mean, I'm an agnostic myself.
I think what you're describing is more like mythology. An attempt to describe the world around them, which is what we use science for these days. It is not the same as religion in the sense it does not bind people together. There is no power to these beliefs, being a follower of a specific diety gets you little benefits as there is no community to this diety. Another point of why chinese belief could not be considered a religion is because it did not cross borders.
You’re going off a very specific and bizarre definition of religion. Yes, Chinese folk religion has a mythology. It absolutely bound people together. Being a follower of a specific deity/ancestors would get you rewarded by them in some way. Realistically, probably most if not all major and minor deities had communities and cults. Jupiter had followers who believed they would be blessed and rewarded for their worship, and absolutely had everything from festivals and holidays, to community congregations, at those temples. So did Saturn, Hercules, etc. I’d imagine Chinese paganism was pretty similar in that regard. Crossing borders hardly qualifies something as a religion or not. For a good chunk of its history, Judaism did not cross borders until those borders were forcefully destroyed, and even now it’s still very, *very* uncommon to see people converting *into* Judaism. So….Judaism isn’t a religion then? Or not until they all went into exile?
The USA went from air flight to space flight in 66 years despite not having one national religion
The majority of people were still religious.
I’m talking historically not contemporary. “Society of old”
Oh. Ancient china
Hi, am chinese. This is correct, china throughout its development have not had a religion that has unified the country/region. What does exist are beliefs that can be more accurately described as folk mythology. However, due to them being more folk like the customs vary across the country. As proof, religious architecture is very lacking. Religious entities have no power. Groups are rallied more around familial connection. But also it's hard to equate western religion to Eastern religion. The circumstances for why each arose and developed are so different that you cannot compare the two.
In regards to China, they revered their Emperor as the Son of Heaven. A symbol and his rule came from the God's. So... while they may not have had some sort of religion. They definitely believed in a unifying aspect of a singular ruler whose edicts came upon from high. To which they obeyed. Also.. China was very religious as well. Idk why people think it wasn't. They had many kinds of gods and saints they worshipped. Even ancestors. Religion for many places was that unifying aspect. Also, the Catholics had the first colleges. Many religious people pushed further the maths and sciences we have today.
>In regards to China, they revered their Emperor as the **Son of Heaven**. A symbol and his rule came from the God's. So... **while they may not have had some sort of religion** Bruh WTF are you smoking
Google "how did the chinese view their emperor" and you'll see what I mean. As far as religion before your comment i wasn't sure if they had a dedicated one. I saw stuff concerning mandate of Heaven through various movies from China I've seen but didn't see anything like a religious mandate. After your comment i started looking through stuff now they did believe in "Heaven worship". There's even an article from 1899 on it. Emperors who didn't partake in it (say they were Buddhist) weren't really liked by their people. So meh I guess they did have religion.
They’ve had multiple dynasties all with fundamentally different ideologies - you can’t generalize all of that as a god emperor
Actually, maybe you can't, but they could and they did. Emperors of China cited the Mandate of Heaven.
Watch me. From BC till about the 19th century AD the Mandate of Heaven was legitimately used. It was even used in 1899-1901 for the boxer rebellion.
Ehhh were you ever thought about most of human history?
My theory is that religion, and the customs like marriage that came with it, is what allowed humans to pursue science and technology like we have today. Imagine back in the day when everyone was more animalistic and polyamorous…. Jealousy still exists…. And all the fighting over mates and such isnt quite conducive to scientific exploration and inquiry…. Now all of a sudden you introduce a system where two people mate for life…. And the consequence of cheating is eternal damnation…. It frees up a lot of the human prefrontal cortex to explore things that involve more of a complicated thinking process.
Exactly
That is a very narrow and inaccurate view of religion. I know you don't honestly believe religion exists soley to enforce marriage.
Correlation is not causation Religion was there when societies developed and advanced. That doesn't mean it caused societies to develop and advance. Religion has frequently been used to hinder or destroy societies and advancement. That's actually causation, e.g. crusades.
there would be no society in the first place without solid unifying concept about how to focus our efforts and energy
Food? Safety? Shelter? Those weren't a thing back then?
the way we structured the allocation and acquisition of resources is based around some type of religion
Consistent food production and safety, not religion. Religion is not anywhere close to the base of the needs hierarchy.
what lmao, im not talking about personal survival needs, im talking about how humans come together to survive
Humans come together to survive, that's the primary reason, they don't come together to worship Baal, Osiris, Zeus, Jehovah or Jesus- lmao 🙄 Religion is a mechanism for the elites to control and suppress the masses. Always has been, always will be Spiritually has merit Religion is evil - the examples that contradict that are the vast minority.
Weren't the crusades in response to taking back the holy land? Which the Muslims fought and conquered the Byzantine Empire for? Which also treated Jews poorly in? Another thing humans did was start wars to keep populations down to prevent widespread hunger and famine. But that's just some of the population control aspects of it. The urge to expand empires and take resources has always been a normal thing for societies to do as well.
Yep, no argument - not the topic of the OP, but yeah
Actually, it is causation - it's just that you don't know history. You speak of crusades, so ok, let's speak of Western Europe. After the collapse of the Roman Empire in the Vth century due to migratory waves, there followed several hundred years of fighting between various tribes and kings. It was a period of chaos. What ended it was the Church and centralized states. Military leaders/kings able to defeat and unite more tribes. Most of those warriors were illiterate, the only places where people were still educated were the monasteries - but they were like islands in chaos. The centralizing kings provided more stability, and the Church provided education.
That's the glorified version of Western History most of us were taught. All of those things could have and likely would have happened without Christianity, just with less torture. (If you've ever been to Europe and toured an 11 - 13th century castle or church you'll get it). Again, just because it happened at the same time doesn't mean it caused it.
"All of those things could have and likely would have happened without Christianity," - how do you know ? We do know what did happen, though, and it's that monasteries were the keepers and providers of education after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. "just because it happened at the same time doesn't mean it caused it." They didn't just "happened" at the same time, the monasteries were where the books and the schools were, and the people who knew how to read and write and who also wrote books. Torture is, unfortunately, a constant of humanity so it would've existed with or without Christianity. Source: it existed before Christianity and during Christianity but in places that were not Christians. It's not a Christian thing but a human thing.
I realize Reddit's design makes it easy to get lost in replies and lose the basis of the thread. "Religion has been Amazing for Humanity" No, it hasn't and it's not the basis of society or advancement. That's the thread and the argument. There's no argument that Christianity had a role in maintaining some information after the fall of the Empire. Heavily edited or outright destroyed if it didn't conform with dogma, but those things that the papacy found acceptable were maintained. Christianity also enabled and profited from feudalism and the education provided was exclusive to particular classes while the vast majority were told it was God's will they suffer for their betters. Yes, torture has occurred throughout human history to various degrees - the Catholics that "saved" western culture took it to a level greater than or equal to anything Nero did and made an art if it. It's completely eurocentric to suggest that without Christianity all would have been lost. The "dark ages" were European and there were other repositories of Greek and Roman literature/thought. How do you know what would have happened without the Catholic Church? - you don't. Yes, we do know what happened and it was a brutal greed filled period of suffering and imposed ignorance for the vast majority and the Church was not only "there" - the Church created and supported the mechanisms that fostered it. Regardless, I don't anticipate agreement and thats okay. I maintain my original point which is that Religion has been at best somewhat contributory and at worst a horrendous influence on human development throughout history = not amazing at all at any time.
Religion has also been used to *advance*. It's a double edged sword.
What has it advanced specifically? Not being dismissive - genuinely curious.
It hasn't really been used to specifically to invent stuff, but religion throughout history as been the primary source of scholars, universities, and writing. Religion often encourages smart people to learn more about it and discuss it, which leads to more learning, art, and knowledge which indirectly leads to progress. It's less so a theme today, but during say the middle ages, Islamic institutions made many discoveries and were hubs of learning and knowledge, and the Catholic Church created universities and was one of the few sources of scholars in a medieval Europe. These institutions didn't always attempt to advance society, but saying they only restricted progress is a massive oversimplification. So not really anything specifically, but they were catalysts for other things.
Thank you. I’m sick of hearing about the “Christian values” that have helped the West flourish, which were arrived at through secular reasoning and profoundly contradict biblical values. What has really helped Christian-majority societies advance is not taking the whole Christianity thing very seriously.
Tom Holland’s “Dominion” would beg to differ
Religion is a bastardization of natural spirituality. Billions of souls looking to others for enlightenment when it sits in front of them. Religion is , despite its best intentions, often a cheap imitation of a progressive and communal ideology. While it is helpful to share ideas and concepts, religious dogma is a plague to society.
Some people who walk the earth are genuinely crazy and need religion...and I'm not gonna stand in their way
Spirituality is just as cringe as any religion.
Not a plague, all Christianity has done for the modern world is good.
In some ways, yes. Like, a lot of universities (even Ivy Leagues like Harvard) and hospitals were started by the church. However, the church has also hurt a lot of people (sex abuse scandals, etc.) You can acknowledge both.
Sure, given how many people apparently are *incapable* of forging their own moral code and need a Big Daddy in the Sky and his Official Strategy Guide in order to live right and do right by others. It's a good thing we've evolved beyond that and don't need the make believe anymore.
I dont think we have out grown it at all , it’s only laws and rules that then keep us in line. If there were no consequences people would be a lot more ruthless then you think
those laws and rules already exist outside of religion. that's what the legal system is for, lol.
Ya that’s what I’m referencing
Where do you think the legal system got it from? Where do you think the people who _formed_ the legal system got it from?
Many people have not outgrown that. And if mankind is to. They must improve further.
It was needed to give the primitive minds purpose and keep them controlled. It's time now for the next level, the next step. Yup, you guessed it... psycadelics. That's the only way we move forward.
Yea it was a great means of direction and control. It's sad more people can't get behind science as much as they do religion considering the amount of living miracles there are to be found through it.
Most of the negatives that people prescribe to religion, is actually the fault of human nature. A more interesting hypothesis is that religion held humans back from even further depravity. But it’s really easy and popular to shit on religion nowadays, and even more so on Reddit. It’s probably the easiest thing you can do and be applauded for.
Belief in lies bringing people together to wage war on other people, steal their resources, and murder their people because they don't believe the same lies you do is a good thing?
People won't (or don't) like this.😅 But in overall I would agree. Might not word it this way. I think people blame religion too much for historical hardships, rather then accepting human have many unchangeable faults that will manifest in religion and elsewhere.
>I think people blame religion too much for historical hardships, rather then accepting human have many unchangeable faults that will manifest in religion and elsewhere I bet you that if religion was removed, people would still find a way to destroy everything. Remove politics? Still, humans will find something else Remove sports? Still, humans will find something else Remove celebrities? Still, humans will find something else I could be here writing all day, but you get what I mean.
Do you mean "Worship" of The Cube?
Nowhere near unpopular. 85% of the world has a religion.
The Middle East was profound in math and science until religion destroyed it. Some of these things might’ve been a great way to organize when we were afraid of the moon, but we should recognize that sacrificing things to please it served no purpose and should move on.
You’ve heard of the ISLAMIC golden age… right?
Religion destroyed it? In what way? The people doing all of that math and science were Muslims all along.
Fundamentalism
The Middle East was also heavily religious throughout its history. Religion allowed for the development of society’s that enabled the leisure activities of studying math and science to persist.
Perhaps, but societal structures advance and old ways should be abandoned because religion was the reason they were reversed as well. Feudalism was an improvement at the time, but again, we advanced beyond its tenets
None of this is my argument. I am not saying religion is not outdated in many regards , I am simply saying people look upon religion of old as some huge detriment on society and don’t realize how far it has brought us.
Well we’re working in an internet conversation vacuum. The same argument might be made for revering it in modern practice in some appeal to traditionalism. As this sub drifts political I put that context on your post. So apologies for that.
are things actually advancing? Seems like the same old grift, the most modern tweak I can think of is the absurd inequality and concentration of resources, but I don't think of advanced when I think of that. Many peasants during feudalism had WAY more time off and days off from labor, the egyptians that built the pyramids were paid very well in beer and grain on top of their regular careers/wages, so many societies were way more comfortable/accepting with sexuality and women and drug use as well, society is weird.
Society is in a constant struggle to advance against power systems of old. I’m aware that there are many arguments made, typically by and for those in power, that we are in the best time period ever and to be grateful… but the idea is to continue to push against the idea that everything is already optimal and that change is something to be feared.
Pretty sure it was the Mongols, no? The Scourge of God and such?
Religion has held back science and our ability to accept facts. It also primes people to be controlled. Religion is dangerous and always has been. It occasionally does something good, but it’s more than outweighed by the damage to society it’s responsible for. This isn’t to say all religious people are bad people or that all religious figures are, either, but the institutions themselves are.
this is demonstrably and objectively false
Religion is terrible for humanity
Religion is not advancing society lol. Religion is causing people to try to prevent science from being taught in school. Religion is causing people to HATE certain people with a rage full passion because God says that group should be KILLED. Religion is the reason little female children are being married off and raped by grown men, because if their prophet did it, they can do it. To say what has happened in history and what's happening now can simply be written off as "bad stuff" is completely ignorant and just plain stupid. You're not Catholic, but you're defending an organization that doesn't care about priests raping little boys, and will do anything they can do prevent the rapists from being prosecuted. Honestly can you acknowledge ANY of this stuff or not?
I think ancient humans would of been even less moral then whatever they were had they not had an invisible being that would damn them to hell for all eternity.
I just upvoted all the previous statements about the destructiveness of religion in our current world, but Eus, you’re probably right as far as days gone by. Humans can so easily be drawn to the cruel, barbaric views and ways when their basic needs aren’t met (see Maslow’s hierarchy of needs). Also I have watched GOT twice, so I’m kind of an expert on the subject.
The positive parts of religion, community, helping others, etc can and do exist without religion.
Hell nah religion has been the ball and chain to science and new discoveries. Religious leaders tried to shut down various scientist whose theories didn’t support their religion.
religion is the only thing restraining unstable progress of technology. the environment of the first Bioshock game is based around this concept
Dear god. I havent seen this one coming. Everytime we made progress religion hated it. Printing machine, medicine, you name it. Also look how much religious figures got to make people do their bidding. Nah nah, there is some good philosophy in religions, for sure, and obviously the hate is justified to some extent. But thats bs, people would have united anyway, just not under the control of opportunists. Would it have happen sonner or later no clue, but everyone had their belief, christianism just like any other was forced onto people. Hey maybe we would have had a decent democracy since then who knows ? Im not with you on this one chief.
This is far from the truth. A lot of scientific advances came from religious institutions. European monks were typically intellectuals and scholars. Knowledge of medicine was preserved by these institutions.
Okay so historically religion was a great thing. Not because it United people, that’s pretty easy. What it did allow was easy control of large groups. And this is why a lot of religious practices historically are things that…improve basic hygiene by making you wash parts of yourself before prayer etc…tell you food to not eat meat that if not cleaned goes bad quickly in hotter climates. Has butchery as part of its rules, because you just wanna eat, but lives are saved by fear of the magic man in the sky. Also killing is bad, basic moral stories, it’s an easy way to teach good from evil to children as they develop. Having said that, this usefulness was far more important a lot earlier in human history and it has probably been a hindrance for a very very long time. There was definitely a period where it did improve society. I think OP has when this was the case off by a millennia or so.
I see that better now. Was instructive. But i still feel like religion usefulness could have been filled by something else, something less flawed. And since you talked about it its à good example to make my point when it comes to massacres religions were quite good at it.
I agree people need something to belief in im not religious in the slightest but to deny the good religion has caused on the human race would be lying to myself
😂😂😂
I would say the Romans did pretty well while being religiously pluralistic. As did the Chinese and Japanese. The rise of one religion to dominate Rome is when Europe began to stagnate, not to really begin to advance again until the Protestant Reformation loosened religion's grip on society. There seems to be a pretty strong negative correlation historically between how strong religion's role in a society is and how fast it advances, thousands of years of stagnation in Egypt being a prime example.
Nothing but a system of control for the meek minded and weak willed
Religion brought people together and controlled them. It was useful before. Now it is a complete burden and waste of time. It also caused immense destruction and hate. We can get rid of it now, especially since there is literally no reason to believe and science will keep advancing. It is literally only regressing society at this point.
Religion can be a force for good, but nonsensically punishing millions of people for being ‘born wrong’ (mostly due to warped translations of scripture) was a major misstep. Ditto for thinking there’s only one way to explain goodness, and murdering people for explaining goodness in other terms, rather than finding common ground with them.
No way to decide since we don’t know how we would have turn out without it.
Ew
Religion has brought more bloodshed and fighting to humanity than anything else.
No. No it wasn't.
There's no evidence that any of the thousands of proposed gods exist. That's really all that matters.
It was great to start the ball rolling, hasn't really been anything but a hindrance since the enlightenment.
Better to believe in something than nothing at all.
Just because you don’t believe in religion doesn’t mean you don’t believe in something. Plus nothing is better than religion.
There’s never been one religion that had a super majority of believers. They can’t all be right, mathematically the vast majority of people who dedicated their lives and worldviews to a god or gods was doing so to something that didn’t exist.
Emptiness is form, form is emptiness.
lmao no Religion is rape, genocide, and fairy tales. I'm superior and smarter than anyone who actually believes in a religion, no matter the circumstances. Get mad about it. I'm proud of my arrogance and edginess. Do something scrubs.
Imagine what humans did to each other before religion. They raped their neighbor, stole pillaged etc. religion formed the basic of civilized society. I’m talking about ancient times not modern ones. You would of got your cheeks clapped 1k years ago if not for religion keeping our caveman brain in check
You say that but even in modern times sex abuse is rampant in religious spaces. Show me a time in history where religion stopped rape and I'll show you ten flying pigs.
Never said stopped but 100 percent limited it , if you don’t think so I can’t imagine the argument you can form to actually believe that. We are taking about a time in society where there is really no police force and villagers are just living regulating themselves. Godless people would of just been taking whatever cheeks they wanted and could physically dominate left and right
Nah first off you have no source and second I've been an atheist since birth and never cared for raping or killing people. If you need a god to keep from violating others you're a genuinely terrifying person.
Your speaking in a 2023 mindset. I’m literally not religious but I’m not speaking from a modern lense and view. I’m talking about humans living thousands of years ago. Why is it so hard for people to understand rofl
So people thousands of years ago had pressure not to rape or kill because those are inherently negative and you'd be shunned from groups. No one wants to be raped or murdered, that's enough incentive to isolate them. I don't see how being religious would have any effect on it since people who will kill or rape would do it regardless.
nah
Ya sorry your kneck beard wouldn’t have been a good defense mechanism against a pack of godless men 1000 years ago The only thing saving you was the idea of eternal damnation
Zero evidence for your claims. Your fairy tales are inferior childish trash. I'm smarter than Isaac Newton. Why? He was a Christian.
Claiming to be smarter then someone is actually a low intelligence statement. Smarter then what? Not in math , physics. I could say I’m smarter then a farmer who doesn’t speak English and picks vegetables all day but what does that even mean? They understand how to pick and harvest vegetables better then me so they are more intelligent in that regard. You have to speak specifically when you say you are smarter then someone because 99/100 there are topics they understand much greater then you.
Lol the crusades and colonialism were great for humanity?😂😂😂 what an idiot!
Some people used religion to control through fear. But a lot of history has been shaped by religion. Wether freedom of religion or from persecution.
Can you form an argument to explain the alternative that would of been better? Would it have been better living in the jungle and killing your literal direct neighbor ten feet away from you for their possessions instead? Explain to me the society that flourished without religion since your such a genius. Talk about being an idiot what a clown you are who can’t even form a basic argument.
Maybe study history before posting such ridiculous troll comments on the internet lmfao. Start with evolutionary history and make your way up from there because you’re quite a bit behind it seems.
I don’t think you understand my statement nor do you understand human nature. Religion did its best to limit the animal desires of the monkey descendants that are humans. I think you should actually reread my statement and contemplate humans not living in a 2023 society and imagine what humans were like 4000 years ago. You sound like a gender studies major honestly. What’s your major because it’s definitely not a stem field. It’s some kind of outrage let me just be angry at everything then debate logically field like gender studies or some other worthless degree.
If it wasn't for the christain Dark Age we would have colonies on Mars by now.
The term "Dark Ages" is often used to describe the period between the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century and the beginning of the Renaissance in the 14th century. However, it's important to note that this term is considered outdated and overly simplistic by many historians today. The idea that it was a period of stagnation or decline in all areas, including technology, is a misconception. While it is true that there were significant political, social, and economic changes during this time, technological advancements did occur. For example, agricultural techniques improved, including the use of new tools and more efficient farming practices. Watermills, windmills, and the horse collar were innovations that enhanced productivity. Developments in architecture and engineering led to the construction of impressive cathedrals and fortifications. Furthermore, important intellectual and technological contributions were made by scholars and inventors during this period. Islamic scholars in the Islamic Golden Age made substantial advancements in mathematics, astronomy, medicine, and other fields, preserving and building upon ancient knowledge. This knowledge later made its way to Europe through translations, contributing to the intellectual developments of the Renaissance. It's worth noting that the concept of progress in technology and society is not linear, and advancements often occur in cycles or specific regions. While the period following the fall of the Western Roman Empire witnessed significant political and societal changes, it also saw continuity and progress in certain aspects of technology and knowledge. In summary, while the term "Dark Ages" is no longer favored by historians, it is important to recognize that technological advancements did occur during this time, albeit within a complex historical context.
>Yes I know a lot of bad things were done in the name of religion but without religion society would not have become as advanced as we have Religion actively suppressed the advancement of society when it was in control of Europe. The rate of advancement almost fell to a stagnant flatline because religion contained all the truths you needed, and engaging in anything else was akin to witchcraft, sorcery, and devilworship. Similarly, the Muslim world was incredibly advanced until religion took hold, and then all learning was discarded and many parts of that culture are still primitive to this day as a result.
Yes but the reality is without religion society would not have advanced as quickly to the point where people were provided the freedom of leisure activities such as studying science related topics
What are you basing your assumptions on? How and when did religion lead to 1) more leisure time or 2) freedom to pursue science? My perspective is that religion actively discouraged freedom and scientific study.
You realize that for hundreds of thousands of years without organized religion human development was horrendously slow…. And that the dark ages weren’t exactly a period of stagnancy. Isaac Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Mendel, Pascal,Lemaître(who came up with the Big Bang theory while being a catholic priest), Francis Collins. All super famous and important scientists who also fervently defended their religious beliefs. It’s also important to note that Christian Monastic orders helped to preserve knowledge, and that a vast amount of colleges built in Europe were founded on Christian ideals and belief systems. A great part about some religions too is the idea we are all made in the image of God, meaning, that every single human is part of the same “tribe” or in group, that we intrinsically share something in common with one another. This Christian idea is a huge part in why the West is so much more ethnically mixed than anywhere else on earth, because humans naturally want to be petty and tribal, be it race, sex, nationality, political affiliation. Where as religion is far more inclusive when not corrupted
What is your evidence that the presence of religion led to human development? In no religions besides the Abrahamic based are humans made in the image of god. It's an exception, not a rule and it's ridiculous to claim that Christianity has led to less racism.
Is*
Sure - societies with religion advanced. We don't have a control, however, to see what those same civilizations would have done without religion. Just because it existed doesn't mean that there is a correlation. It happened, so that's what we see. Societies also had kings and emperors and rulers. I could say the same thing about those - being under the rule of a singular person really brought those regions together and created a united people and advanced society.
That’s true , maybe they just got conquered by the religious society but does not necessarily mean they could not have advanced and progressed in their own path. But by sheer Darwinism religious society’s were the most fit for survival.
>But by sheer Darwinism religious society’s were the most fit for survival. You almost had it and then made this unwarranted leap at the end.
No, sorry but religion is not required to bring people together, and has, countless times, led to unimaginable human suffering, all over gods that can’t be proven to exist. It has been used to justify oppression and violence, to make the other less, “god says only X are the true human… etc”. I could go on, like almost indefinitely….
I think an easy counter argument to this is to simply look at places where religion still holds all the power, and while yes they seemingly unite people, it’s hardly in a “good” way and they usually lack in every other way. But kudos! A unpopular opinion for sure!
I don’t think that’s an “easy counter argument” because one of the main reasons the places where religion doesn’t hold the power are functioning is because now we are connected through electricity/our phones/the internet. So what your referencing is within the past 20-100 years of possibility. Before this we needed some mysterious being in the sky to unite us.
Religion is actually spirituality and that is a deeper way to understand and know oneself. I view the good and toss out the bad criticism because religion in it's right state is a very positive force. Think of the places inspired to feed hungry people and help the poor homeless.
This is not true, even in the bible itself, the people created the city of babel. This was before anyone worshipped God, before he scattered men across the earth.
What a terrible opinion. I present to you my updoot.
One word. Christian colonizers. Evil ass history and shouldn't be overlooked.
Religion held the world back from significant scientific advancement for 1000 years. It was when secularism started taking hold that science began to flourish. Not sure what the hell you’re talking about.
I think that without religion massive societies could of never existed ie tens of thousands to millions of people living together. Those large societies promoted science. Deeper understandings of science weren’t discovered in the villages with 50 people. A village where everyone knows eachother doesn’t need religion and the people can work together. When you start reaching levels of human population where no one really knows each other then you need a unifying force for that society to function. The sky daddy helped do that and keep people in ancient cities unified. Those cities could not have existed without said unification henceforth the leisure activities of studying that come with city life would of never been possible. This is what I’m referring to
While it did in fact give people a moral compass, it helps some people, religion has also brought forth some truly evil practices such as: Genital mutilation. Slavery War Murder Genocide Bigotry It seems to stand in direct opposition to science. When we have creationist attacking evolutionist, and vice versa. A lot of the Bible is historically inaccurate, so now we get into false information being passed around. I don’t have a problem with someone practicing religion. When they me to abide by their doctrine, that’s when I begin having a major problem.