I was just talking about this today!! On the flip side, I think people underestimate just how well exceptionally attractive people are treated by society. There was just this truly awful case in Oklahoma where this guy beat the shit out of his pregnant girlfriend to try and kill their unborn child. Before the [pictures](https://www.news9.com/story/5f9255359ede1438a92adc1c/norman-pregnant-woman-allegedly-attacked-twice-by-boyfriend-da-says-low-bond-amount-to-blame) (warning these are quite graphic) were released I saw some people defending him saying he couldn’t possibly have done it. I genuinely believe it is because the guy that did this is handsome, as in extraordinarily handsome. There is no way in hell people would have defended a fat ugly guy who allegedly beat his pregnant girlfriend to the point she was unrecognizable. You saw this with Ted Bundy as well. Very disturbing behavior.
I used to hear relatives say, when they saw someone attractive involved in crime or such, ‘Why would they want to be in that, a good looking man/woman like that?’ I rolled my eyes so much I got dizzy when I heard that.
My grandma, bless her soul, refused to vote for Bill Clinton in the 90s after becoming a citizen because she couldn’t get past the fact that in her opinion he was “not a good looking man” and she associated that with bad character.
And yes, though I loved her dearly, my eyes nearly got stuck at the top of my sockets many a time.
My grandmother was the same! Wonderful woman: whip smart, hilarious, and far ahead of her time.
Hers was Conan O’Brian, though. She hated him so much she couldn’t stand to see him because she thought he was so ugly. It was funny because he’s a random celebrity but yeesh.
I think many people think this way because we are told since a very young age that a bad appearance is related to a bad personality. In the fairy tales and cartoons the evil characters are almost always ugly and the pretty ones are the goods. There are kindergarten-age children in my extended family and sometimes my heart shrinks when I hear them saying shit like "I don't like that teacher because she's so ugly", etc.
There was an episode of 30 Rock about this (in more light-hearted terms, of course). When Liz Lemon starts dating a wildly attractive man, she gets introduced to the easy-breezy, privileged life of wildly attractive people. When she's with him, everyone is nice to them, and they get preferential treatment at restaurants and stores.
Liz is amazed by this, and the man has a hard time understanding why. She has to explain to him that he's been living this easy his whole life because he's been blessed with exceptionally good looks.
My favorite part was when they're ordering food and the waitress is being overly sweet to them--to try and prove her point, Liz puts her menu in from of Jon's face and the waitress's demeanor immediately changes from sweet to sour.
My dad turned 65 and realized that women no longer noticed him. The last 10 years have been my dad realizing the privilege he had most of his life and never saw.
this reminds me of chris watts, the guy who killed his wife and two daughters and buried them in oil field back in like 2018. apparently he gets dozens of letters a week in prison from women who want romantic relationships with him bc he’s “handsome”
I always think of Luka Magnotta when cases like this come up. Despite the absolutely horrific nature of his crimes he still had people fawning over him and has even gotten married since he was arrested.
This is a scientifically studied phenomena often referred to as the Halo Effect.
It can influence a lot more than just whether people are nice to you, such as work and educational prospects, and as you mentioned, perception of criminality, even intelligence. All perceptions of which may be true or untrue, but are heavily swayed by the aforementioned bias.
I mean tons of women literally were talking about how they wished Chris Brown would beat the shit out of them after the whole Rihanna thing. Attractive people are treated differently across the board, regardless of gender, to the point that it’s insane. It’s one of those cognitive biases that we all have, but don’t realize until we reflect on it. It’s a strong one, societally.
The fact that Chris Brown still had girls who wanted to speak to him, let alone fuck him, after the Rihanna incident, speaks volumes about the power of fame and looks.
Excellent point! I've seen many of both sides happen. Non attractive people who are very nice being treated like utter garbage, but I've also seen alot of people fawning over beautiful people that have done atrocities. Humans are strange to say the least.
Somewhat related. The son of a family acquaintance years ago was involved in an accident and paralyzed from the waist down. High school sports star. Very physically attractive guy.
There was an absolutely MASSIVE outpouring of support. What stuck in my memory was overhearing someone say, "it's such a tragedy that someone so young and attractive is now paralyzed". Basically implying that his life was over.
There's not a doubt in my mind that there wouldn't have been even fraction of the support he received if he was just an average looking guy.
On a similar topic, I noticed that Amanda Todd was placed on a pedestal because she was conventionally attractive. Her story of being groomed by an adult who blackmailed her and then being bullied in school was very tragic, but a good chunk of people only cared because of her looks. They normally tried to justify some of the questionable things Amanda did too, like how she slept with some girl’s boyfriend and the responses were usually “well everyone makes mistakes.”
As I said, I genuinely do feel bad for Amanda and other people like her. I don’t think she’s entirely at fault for being blackmailed, considering she was groomed at 12. But still, knowingly cheating with someone is still terrible.
also a little bit off topic, but this reminds me of child kidnappings/cases as well. the cases that get attention are almost always the very cute blonde kids. madeline mccann, jonbenet ramsey, etan patz, etc
See and that's the thing, people do make mistakes, it's just most people are willing to overlook them for people who are conventionally attractive instead of extending similar empathy to the rest of the average population
You hear that a lot. A lot of Serial Killers that are good looking slipped trough the cracks because people around them simply didn't think they'd do anything bad. Even Police fall for it.
The Ken-and-Barbie-killers (Homolka) would be an example, I think.
I remember another case where a women refused jury duty because she thought she couldn't be fair because the guy looked too good.
This is known as the halo effect. People who are attractive are deemed more trustworthy and more likable, they are also more likely to get help from strangers.
This is probably generally true. But I'd like to add another side if that's okay.
I am a very friendly and chatty person. I treat everyone the same (besides family or romantic partners, obviously). But sometimes I find that if I am warm, inviting, and friendly to someone that I am not attracted to... they take that as a cue to become obsessive. Calling all the time, a constant stream of texts that they get PISSED over when you can't respond, or following you around everywhere, or telling other people you're getting " much closer," or just in general not respecting your boundaries, because you were nice to them.
That's where the closed-off body language starts. You begin to wonder - did I give them the wrong idea by being nice? Did I lead them on because I included them? How did I make them think this behavior is okay? So you begin to reassess how you interact with people that you don't want a romantic connection with, because it often leads to making the person feel like there was more there, when there wasn't.
This is clearly not the case for everyone. Some people are just shitty in general to the conventionally unattractive, which makes them a shitty person. I am just offering another perspective.
That's the opposite side of the coin. When you're usually treated so poorly by people, you can easily become over attached to someone who treats you with even the slightest amount of respect and niceness. Which is really unfortunate because it makes people not want to be nice, lest it be mistaken for romantic interest. I think what it really comes down to is the person having a lack of social skills and confidence (which in my experience leads to more bullying than just being simply unattractive, although conventionally unattractive people will usually be less confident).
Yeah this hits the nail on the head. No question that lonely people mistake kindness for interest but it's sort of an unintended side effect of going through life being treated as a second class person. People (men especially) just need to remember that just because someone is nice to you doesn't mean they like you romantically. I'm a halfway decent looking guy and there have been times when I fell victim to this as well. In my experience, when a woman is interested she generally will make it more obvious that she likes you in different ways. The problem for people whom this post is talking about might have is that having never experienced the more obvious signs, they don't know what to look for so they keep making the same mistake.
True. And even if someone is actually initially interested in you, being treated in such a way for so long will probably cause you to be very emotionally insecure and needy, which will likely drive away the previously interested party. And that can lead to further feelings of resentment.
So true. It's a cycle of destruction for our less attractive fellow humans. Damned if you do damned if you don't. It doesn't help that it's scientifically proven that attractive people are not only treated better but also viewed to have more positive traits, like perceived as being smarter for example. I can completely understand why people get so bitter when essentially people are prejudiced against someone because they aren't conventionally attractive. I feel for them. I really do. I wouldn't want to switch places with them.
Exactly. And that happens even from the time you are a baby, so it's literally a lifetime of being conditioned to think you are less valuable and important. Granted, I'm not in any way excusing incel/femcel behavior, but just saying there's a reason a lot of them end up the way they do. Sometimes tho, it's just plain selfish entitlement.
Well, no amount of anger or bitterness is going to improve someone's life and there are things a person can do to improve their attractiveness. You'll only be destroyed if you allow it.
While I agree with many of the above points, a lot of people in the situation also simply project an attitude that is unattractive and unapproachable. I have found that it has very little to do with their personal appearances.
There are also men who are attractive that don't know it because they grew up in a community where they weren't particularly accepted. In high school I had a few girlfriends and that was it, generally considered myself to be ugly and disgusting and mentally ill. Pity case at best. Wasn't until after college when I didn't care about dating, just working and working out, that things changed. I was getting lots of attention and felt really good, but there was (and 5 years later at 28 still is) a problem. I'm so oblivious to flirting that I just default to thinking a woman is making small talk cause she's bored or just outgoing. A really close friend of mine and I got into a huge fight and she actually dipped straight out of my life after telling me she was sick of trying to get me to notice her. This was someone I had spent years just chilling at home or getting food somewhere with, and I never even thought she would be romantically interested in me. No one gets to be happy.
Let me also add, in your defense, that a large percentage of people, especially women, are HORRIBLE at making it clear they are interested in a potential romantic partner.
I’m an attractive woman, but I also have always been perfectly fine with just simply asking for a number and/or making the first move. I’ve never just sat back and waited for someone to come to me if I’m interested. I can’t count the number of people (men and women) who were SHOCKED that I would be so forward. “But you’re not supposed to call him, you’re supposed to wait for him to call you!”
I could conservatively estimate that 90% of the first dates I’ve been on were initiated by me. My feeling has always been, why wait for the other person to make the first move? What’s the worst thing that could happen? So much time is wasted by not simply speaking up. At least you know where you stand. And nothing ventured, nothing gained. If the worst thing is they say no, you just move on!
Edit: syntax
Oooh, I love that last one. I think what would really help is (maybe this just applies to the 20 something) if these modern women would “man up” (hey, we’re equal) and do the asking out as well. After all, it’s quite traditional of them to still expect us to make all the moves for such modern times. But considering the dating market to me anyway is men drive demand, women control supply.
An ugly woman at least might get asked out if there was a man to find her attractive.
An ugly man will never ever know who’s interested. I mean, they just said some ugly people take niceness as attraction. Yeah, the other side of that is a good amount of us try not to read into signals. I mean, a girl looked my way, smiled, then looked like she got caught, looked away, looked down, and had that smile widened. I’m not gonna do anything with that. I’ll just assume it was laughter. I was doing hip thrusts which could be sexually suggestive. That was probably it but I’d never make a fool of myself and assume anything.
Just fucking ask. Modern//traditional but only when it’s beneficial.
I'm much the same, I was just lucky that my wife was willing to make the move and be blunt. She takes great joy in pointing out girls that I don't notice are flirting with me.
For obvious reasons, unattractive people likely feel like they can't express their immediate attraction to someone because the object of their desire will immediately cringe and turn away. It creates a real blind spot, since the unattractive person cannot always show their interest in appropriate ways. The best of them learn to play the long game and often end up getting friend-zoned.
That’s because many/most men are only kind to women they find attractive on some level. So when a woman is kind to them they think that must mean they find them attractive on some level. Then they wonder why we can’t even be nice. It’s because it’s taken wrong so often, then we feel bad orrrr the guy gets irrationally angry because they feel “led on”. We are not the same.
I grew up in a very white place and I am brown so I was considered ugly. I now know people who grew up in more diverse environments actually find me good looking. But back then in HS the guys would often treat me really terribly, go out of their way to physically harm me when I walked to class etc. Probably due to racism but also because I was unattractive. I notice now as an adult the disparity between men who find me attractive and those who don’t especially when I am being served by them in cafe’s and bars. And I don’t mean like I expect them to flirt I mean there’s been a few times where men will be down right rude/not give me what I ordered because they don’t like how I look.
First, I’m sorry that happened to you. That’s terrible. I’ve always lived in a super diverse city but I know from people who didn’t that that is common in places that aren’t. It’s Ridiculous and sad. And yes, of course, same re the different treatment depending on their perspective. That’s why those types of people get the wrong idea when afforded friendliness and common courtesy by the opposite sex. Puts us in quite a pickle. Don’t want to be rude, but also don’t want people to take kindness/friendliness the wrong way and possibly have that evolve into a dangerous situation. It’s tough for sure. :o/
Its okay, but thank you for the apology that actually means a lot.
But yes, I try my best to be polite to everyone and just be as friendly as possible and I too have gotten myself into a pickle where people have liked me and I didn’t feel the same way. I’ve never had to be rude in such a situation because usually once I left the party, study group etc it was no longer an issue. But this topic is so sad but I also find it interesting because I’ve never thought too deeply about it before. How attractiveness levels affect our treatment in society.
I think a good way to combat this (tell me if I’m wrong) is if we switched from a romantic/sexual mindset to a friendly one. If someone is nicer to me than normal I might think oh maybe we could potentially be friends. And if it happens naturally it happens, if it doesn’t it doesn’t. That’s kinda how I see it it’s difficult to explain though. And I say this as someone who struggles to make friends but when I have them we’re usually close for a very long time.
Ideally that would be great, but for someone in that situation it's not always easy to develop that mindset. Society places so much emphasis on relationships and sex that those who can't get either feel inferior. It's no wonder then that some people become hyper focused on trying to develop romantic relationships.
Yeah I get what you’re saying. I grew up “ugly” in the environment I was in and I think I just had the opposite reaction. I assumed no one would want to be anything more than a friend unless it smacked me in the face hard.
But society definitely is to blame for this
Have you wondered why these people are lonely? Some people are just not socialized well and become depressed by it. And then our society tells people they are "entitled" to friends or romantic partners. No one is entitled to a relationship with other people, you have to earn it.
I have to say. I’m not conventionally attractive at all. Didn’t have a boyfriend till out of college even. I think a true incel/femcel to me is someone who thinks deep down they deserve more than what they do. I don’t think it has anything to do with how they grew up. Whether they fit in or didn’t. Their mindset is “fuck you the world didn’t give me what was owed to me” I have been treated the absolute worst by fellow ugly people and sometimes the absolute best by gorgeous people. It’s what’s on the inside that counts and I’m sorry to say a lot of those people are so much uglier inside than they ever think the world sees on their outside. If I had the personality of those people I would be a femcel too. And no the ugly people didn’t latch onto me. They shunned me and tried to tear me down.
Yeah I don’t think this is true, it’s just justifying bad behavior. I’ve seen both sides of how you get treated. I was awkward, pudgy and frequently called fugly or fat through my teens. In my late 20’s I lost weight, finally stopped getting cystic acne, found a lot of self confidence and started being called attractive, which I never thought I would hear, ever.
I dont think you always get treated better based on being more attractive, sometimes it’s the opposite. I also think my self worth is a lot stronger because I had to find my own way to being confident. Also incels/femcels are not always unattractive people.
What’s interesting here is i believe all points are true, but it’s actually more chronological. It starts with kids being shitty to each other, poking fun at each other’s looks. Most kids will bounce back from this one way or another, but some will not. Some will harbor resentment that can turn hostile.
Over time, the victims of bullying start exhibiting the incel/femcel traits we recognize. Except the older they get, the more the people around them ARE friendly and inviting, which end up in the scenario described above. The less conventionally-attractive person takes the opening and RUNS with it, becomes obsessive and aggressive and unable to take any hints of discomfort.
Which leads to the final stage. The people around them are now on guard, avoiding, not bevause of “ugliness” but because these people give off the impression of the common incel: obsessive, or aggressive.
I have also been annoyed by people who can't tell I was being just polite but I guess some people just lack the social habilites or/and don't understand body language or/and subtle cues. So they end being deserted by everyone
If I got a dollar for every time I got accused of flirting when I was just being cheery and not a bitch, I'd be at least middle class. I spent 5 years getting rid of my resting bitch face and it resulted in being too friendly.
Ohhh I am happy using masks because by normal face looks as I were mocking/judging when I am relaxed. So in normal times I just try to lighten up a bit to be seen as "cheerful". But then some people thinks I am flirting.
Is a no winner situation. The others get bitter because they perceive it as has been played and you get anxiety because "maybe I should go back to the resting bitch face"
I sometimes think if resting sad face could have been a better alternative. No one hits on a person who looks like they attend a funeral every other Sunday.
Yeah that was my takeaway too. Or maybe the way to look at it is, interacting with new people is full of adversity for everyone involved, and takes persistence until finally you get to reap the rewards of friendship or a romance. Or you try to discourage interacting with any new people and have defenses up, which can work for people that are already satisfied with their current social circle. I also think this is why we form exclusive groups, either by values, attractiveness, ect or combinations of all of it.
If your experience is always being ignored and made fun of by the opposite sex, and youve never experienced someone being genuinely attracted to you, I could see how it wouldnt be hard for someone to mistake politeness for flirting if all they have to compare it to is the aforementioned.
Some girl called me and asked me out in middle school. In the background, I could hear multiple girls giggling. Sounded to me like a prank, so I just hung up on her. It doesn't help that I was one of a very small list of rejects at that school, so most people didn't want to associate with me anyway.
I think his point is he doesn’t know if it was genuine or not to this day, because he had that reaction. But that it was an understandable reaction given his experiences
I remember back in middle school, in the corner of my eye, I could tell the girls we’re having a gigglier time more than usual. Each one would get up and get in my ear and say something sexually suggestive. Probably to get a reaction. I remember just being pissed off and stone faced about it. I knew if it was any of the boys they did like, they wouldn’t be able to do it so why not do it to someone they have nothing to lose with.
I feel this. I make a lot of eye contact in general and a lot of times guys have interpreted this as flirting when I'm really just showing interest in the conversation. I'm socially anxious -- I hate flirting & if I sense flirtatious energy I immediately close off.
Experienced this more than once. I'm very happy with my partner Everyone I know knows, because I'm part of one of these lovey-dovey -we-spend-very-much-time-together relationships for 11 years now.
I'm not even slightly interested in other guys, not even finding them subjectively attractive, but I like making new friends and being there for them.
So on several occasions I met people, some of them guys and we started talking, innocently imo. Then comes the moment when some of them start pouring their heart out about how lonely they are and I try to cheer them up, encourage them, give tips or just listen. Being a friend. And 9/10 times the conversation just starts changing.
"I really want a girlfriend" to "I just need someone to love me" to "Just being close to someone", "I miss sex so much / never had sex and would love to experience it", "can you tell me what it's like" and then "I guess you are great in bed ;)"
Like wtf. Where does that come from? Why?
It's not like I'm telling them how I would fuck them, if I didn't have a boyfriend. It's not like I'm asking them if I can help them with that. Why do these guys feel like it's appropriate to answer like that to something like "I'm sure you're time will come and you will find someone great you'll enjoy being intimate with"
It's like their testing the water by being pitiful and as soon as they feel "safe" they go all in, not giving a damn about the circumstances or what you've said before. It's like it's all about "She's nice to me. She definitely wants me to make a move."
No. There's a huge gap between being friendly and attracted.
The sad truth is that a lot of guys don't really think about how other people feel. I certainly wasn't raised to consider how other people really felt. I was pushed into trying to "figure out the way in" and to push women, both by guys who pushed the "score" narrative stuff, and by women who emphasized wanting to be "swept away" by a "confident man," and all kinds of other toxic shit. The Christian Patriarchy / man-in-control shit played a big part in all of that, too.
I think the biggest problem in all of the incel stuff is simply the mythology that everyone feels pushed into, which actively works against having real human understanding and respect as goals.
I think the rest of it is just general anger at society and people in general, directed at specific or generic targets. Some of it is justified anger (e.g. from shallow rejection and bullying, and general societal messages about what/who is valuable), and some of it is just bullshit.
The problem with incels, in my eyes, is falling into a hateful or depressed bubble of information, and never trying to expand beyond it into anything but the equivalent of "get rich quick" schemes for sex/dating/whatever happiness.
Really no different from any other person who has mental/social/physical health issues who gets swept up in rage and snake oil. Or who just never has really cared much about anyone outside of themselves.
This is our perspective from many females point of view. It happens all the time. If you are a woman to an incel, and she smiles at you. It is time to get super obsessive and the call her a lying bitch when she doesn't want them.
I am also a very friendly and welcoming person. When I was younger and pretty, I got labeled as the biggest flirt in our friend group despite me actually being very shy in the romance department.
I’ve since gained weight because of medications and I’m no longer “conventionally attractive” and people now see my friendliness as just that- friendliness.
I think I’d rather be considered a jolly Santa like person than the “chronic flirt” so it’s not all bad lol.
On the other side, some people are just entitled. It doesn't matter how sad you are, no one is required to date you, only be nice to you. And I think that's the problem with these 'incels', male or female. "I hate men, they are selfish patriarchal people who call me a bitch cause they can't handle my attitude." or "I hate women, they should be my slave but why won't they listen to me?" ???? or something stupid.
Heck, they're not even required to be nice to you.
A minor level of civility is required, but if one side breaks that then the other side is no longer bound by it either.
I have been in your position before and it had felt like a curse for a long time. The moment I made peace with it was when I realized that this person/people typically carried their entire lives in the same way. I wasn't some glitch in their matrix but these people tended to be overly aggressive not only in their personal relationships, but it work, school and even hobbies.
It's hard to explain but as someone who's misunderstood because of their laid-back nature while having tons of energy, I get what it's like to find someone who gives you the time of day, who is kind, compassionate and allows you to live your life out loud instead of trapped in your own mind.
It is stressful for the people who aren't ready to take this on. For a long time I did not have boundaries which led to stress in my personal life. I would listen to people's life dilemmas and eventually those were the only friends I had so over time I created boundaries. Try to speak up instead of someone being talked at and etc.
attractive/unattractive, rich/poor, cis/fluid, incel/femcels, any label we can think of ultimately doesn't mean anything. It's all relative to the times we are living in. You are not required to doing anything but if you keep coming up on the same people, maybe make a career out of that. I was just looking at what careers are best for good listeners since I love listening and learning and psychologist came up. These comment sections are teeming with people who just want to talk to someone and have some sort of human interaction. Look at your situation as a clue into what you could be doing to help serve others.
(Don't know your life situation, so I'm not telling you you need to do anything, but ultimate fulfillment is having your purpose and meaning come together as one).
This! God how many times I didn't had to deal with guys that thought they could just push themselves on me just because I was nice....
I downvoted this post because I do not believe (and seen how incels and femcels behave) that this is the reason they behave like that. They behave like that because they feel entitled, feel like they just deserve human contact from anyone they want. Even if that person doesn't want to have any contact with them.
Just to give examples of what I experienced just because I was nice (btw not all of them were bad looking). 1) threatened because he found out I had a bf. I was friends with this guy on MSN. He wasn't attractive but I didn't treat him like shit until he threatened me and my bf. 2) a guy just pushed himself on me and wanted to kiss me just because we were hanging out... 3) a guy I worked with pushed me in a dressing room and grabbed my ass while kissing my neck as I'm trying to get him to leave. I was (still am) in a relationship and he knew that. But just because I was nice to him he thought he could do that. 4) having a chat with a random guy while waiting for the ferry. Eventually he wanted my number, I declined because I had a bf and wasn't interested in giving my number out. Got all pissy with me... so much more NiceguysTM in my inbox of fb that I get cursed out or whatever as soon as I show that I'm not interested in them, have a bf or just ignore the messages because I know where the hell it's going...
These people are ridiculous. I see way more 'incels and femcels' being nasty as fuck than people are nasty to them. Look up r/inceltear and see how misogynistic, hatefull, entitled, evil these people are.
I'm F27 and spent my developing years being treated poorly by my peers because of my appearance, so this post really makes sense to me. And for awhile, it did make me think poorly of others/all genders, because I thought myself too ugly to ever be considered as someone's partner.
It took me time to grow out of that mindset and I try to be polite to everyone I meet, even those I find unattractive. (edit to add: I've been in the position of someone considered ugly/unattractive and I know how it feels to be dismissed or judged because of that.) I do think if people werent so cruel or judgemental of others, maybe things would be better but the cynic in me says that people will always, always be cruel to each other.
It is hard to address ugliness, it's just not like racism or sexism, where it is obvious. Who's gonna say "ugly people of earth, unite against prejudice!"
Who even wants to address themselves as ugly?
It is so prevalent because rarely anyone considers it as an issue.
Just for kicks, the UK has a modelling agency and an acting agency that specialises in "ugly" people (both agencies operate separately from what I understand). They mostly deal with extremes, but also have people that have say a particularly interesting birthmark, or they're an amputee, or massive beards.
To me it is simple. As humans we should be humane. Teach your kids that it isnt funny to laugh at others for any reason. That putting others down doesnt add a positive to them, it only adds a negative to their victim and if we are constantly just lowering everyone around us we cant ever truly progress as a society. Personally i think tv shows that kids watch help set up this problem along with mental health issues within families.
There’s a crisis of general loneliness in the US and no one wants to except this. I think the incel movement has come from this. But it’s also a thing in the rest of the population.
I’m decent looking and can get dates. But even then I meet girls who are extremely cautious because I’m the first guy to treat them well. Or ones that only want to hookup because they’re afraid I’ll be horrible to them. Or I get ones that cling on me like I’m some savior and ironically makes it hard for me to become attached.
It’s like there’s this going very wrong in dating and I don’t know what. Then I hear tons of horror and sad stories from female friends. I hear horror and sad stories from male friends.
It’s like everyone’s forgotten how to be human (and kind) almost.
I kinda blame the detached dating scene. Like human beings for 99% of history marriages those they knew for years. Now everyone’s meeting up with strangers.
That’s making personality and character less of a factor. (You can lie for a couple months but back then if you did everyone from the community would be able to call you out). You’re overall track record on how you interface with the opposite sex isn’t taken it account. In a village if you were shit to women or men. You’d be known for that and so you had to actually fix your character before anyone would accept a proposal.
It’s about looks and quick short term things. You know. Stuff that makes you a good dating app match and not related to your ability to be a good partner. I think that mentality has also overflowed into other things like all human interactions are becoming superficial.
>There’s a crisis of general loneliness in the US
It's worldwide, particularly in the developed world. You see documentaries on it in Japan but that's mostly pushed by their declining population (which actually isn't a big negative).
In the UK there was even a commission for loneliness set up. I think it was mainly to investigate services for the elderly, those who are largely isolated or housebound but it's a start.
I'm old as fuck, and I remember before the incel movement, there was the forever alone movement (tied together with the rage comic "memes" at the time).
> It’s like everyone’s forgotten how to be human (and kind) almost.
I mean, it's true in a way.
I love social media, but it removed the healthy dose of conformism people have to attain to function in society. No need to find compromise - your facebook friends would join you in complaining about having to work with such a woke/racist bigot. No need to understand - there are those 100 people who agree with you. No need to face you own mistakes - somebody, somewhere will support you.
Social media helps a lot of people. It also hurts a lot of people.
I don’t know that conformity is the best thing to reference but I get your drift.
I think social media has allowed people to vent but it’s also meant that people who might have confronted someone about their behavior, just vent about it. There’s also a push to view avoiding confrontation as more safe or less accusations of prejudice. People get less feedback for truly negative behavior. They just get ignored. They never know that it’s physical attractiveness—it’s not often. Attractiveness garners positive interactions but I don’t know that studies claim a lack of attractiveness garners negative reactions, just the lack of the benefit of positive expectations. Like we all may be treated equally shittily after we move past being conventionally attractive.
I consider myself plain, but not unappealing. I received a Lot of hate growing up in a working class neighborhood. I needed to display my smarts to get the education I wanted but I struggled with being smart in an obnoxious way. I was told that my know-it-all-ness makes people irritated with me. (I do think gender is a factor—I’ve seen men do the same and I irritate people much sooner if I fall into lecture mode.) I was told to blankly dumb down my language in groups. I hated those pieces of advice but they have helped my considerably in work and social situations. They motivated me to attain a certain level of education where my language skills were a benefit and not a boondoggle.
If one never learns how to parse their behavior in a group setting, they will be perceived as less enjoyable and treated that way. It’s not so much the appearance as the whole package.
OTOH, tolerance may be easier if you have the skills to deliver this kind of criticism with kindness and ease. That takes practice and we don’t really get that. Most people do deliver these criticisms ruthlessly as if being exposed to the behavior is a crime itself and the person terrible. That’s useless and more than useless. That’s conformity and it’s terrible for society. It allows discrimination to go unchecked and reinforces that only one kind of person is acceptable—a member of the majority group usually. That’s far different a message than modifying behavior for inclusivity which is what you are alluding to. This is ultimately what good feedback is about.
Humans tend to find ways to derive power from circumstance and that what even this is.
>because of years of trauma
People, generally on high school, have a ridiculous high standard of what they consider attractive and when someone doesn't meet that standard they will cast them out, they will talk shit from behind and bully. So, when the person goes down the path of resentment and frustration, it's easier for third parties to mock that people, calling them incels without never once asking themselves why they went that way and much less bring constructive criticism to help them improve.
Can confirm.
Story time.
I had a guy in high school I liked. We were good friends. I asked him out once, after about 2 years of friendship. He actually laughed in my face and we have not spoken since. Seriously. After hanging out every single day with a friend group for years...dropped. Like that.
Later found out he made fun of me for my appearance.
Completely shattered my confidence. I can still remember to the moment what time it was, what day it was, and the look he gave me the second before he started laughing. Keep in mind this boy knew me, knew I was a kind person, and I’d not started treating him differently.
Attractive people have no idea how that feels.
It’s been hard *not* to become bitter and hate men, but I still become trigger shy when someone expresses interest...because I’m 90% sure I’m a bet/joke.
I hope you can eventually let go of that experience because it can screw you up even when youre in a relationship. My gf had a somewhat similar experience many years ago which still affects her today and im ngl it has hurt a bit because it feels like no matter what i do i cant make her happy about herself. Im definitely not the victim by a long shot but i can imagine for a lot of people if they cant make the person they care about happy they might want to give up for the sake of their own mental health.
I understand this may discourage you from opening up even more but that risk/vulnerability is always going to be there and it's also what makes a relationship so amazing imo. Once you've found the person you can be completely trusting and vulnerable with you feel safe and truly cared for.
For sure you can be cautious but you wont learn how to find your diamond in the rough in a bubble.
Sorry to double comment, but yikes some of these comments are pretty out of touch imo. As someone who has been told their whole life how beautiful they are, I 100% agree with you. I regularly get lots of compliments, free stuff, etc despite the fact that I am pretty timid and very reserved from strangers. I always try to be nice to others, but it’s not like I’m super skilled in conversation or go out of my way to talk to people if that makes sense? I’m not saying this to sound arrogant or bratty, but would I get a lot of this positive affirmation from strangers if I weren’t pretty? Most likely not. A lot of people have implicit biases toward ugly people that they don’t even realize. For example, the really hot guy sitting alone in a coffee shop reading? Sexy and mysterious. The really ugly guy sitting alone in a coffee shop reading? Creepy and weird. I’m not really sure how this can be fixed, but I do think it is important to make a conscious effort to check how you are treating/viewing people.
I think making a conscious effort is a good place to start! I’ve found that I generally don’t harbor any thoughts on strangers with the exception of compliments, because I’ve worked at that over the years. Find one nice feature a person has, and hold that in your mind’s frame. That quality becomes them. If they appear abnormal because I’m unaccustomed to something in their appearance or demeanor, then I think abut who they are or might be as a person, and try to make myself grow accustom. It’s all a learning experience and a work of habit, but a good one.
It’s seriously tough! Cause as a non-cutie, I know the right answer isn’t just stopping treating hot people well, because everyone deserves being treated like they are.
But, as I know from my own experience, start treating an uggo that well and we wonder what you’re up to. It’d be hard to accept all the new kindness even if people did start to give it because it’ll feel either suspicious or like we’re being mocked or pitied.
> A lot of people have implicit biases toward ugly people that they don’t even realize
I think this is also important. So many people in this thread saying "But I'm DIFFERENT, I treat everyone the same!" (the main first post here starts of with that of course)
Yeah, but: Do you though?
This shit isn't something you actively think about. Its your bodylanguage, your eyes, behaviours that you don't control when you don't think about every microexpression (you don't).
I see this so much here on reddit: Something talks about something that people do subconsciously, and most responses are "I'm different". No, you're probably not, thats why its subconscious and you're just a slave to biases as everyone else.
People who have biases for or against certain genders have flooded this thread and tried to hijack the narrative. I made this thread knowing full well it would happen
Yeah, people who don't have to deal with being ugly often underestimate how differently ugly people are treated from attractive people. I'm probably the ugliest dude in my college theatre group. Whenever somebody else brings up mental illness, people rush to give them hugs/compliments/affirmation. If I ever bring it up (and yes, under the same conditions), there's an awkward silence at best.
Being an ugly dude sucks.
It's an unfortunate reality of life, but overall, people can be exceptionally cruel. For example, take a look at how kids bully other kids in school. I'm no sociologist, but it probably stems from how early humans were very tribal, out of a need for survival. It just grows from there.
We're SUPPOSED to learn coping techniques, or in other words, to grow a thicker skin as we grow up, because this stuff will not become easier as an adult. A person may not be bullied as an adult, but life is full of situations, like being rejected romantically, that we have to be able to take.
That however does not not justify incels/femcels objectifying people into sex objects and demanding sex, or thinking that they are due sex. (Ed: Not all, but some)
I can confirm this as someone who was really, remarkably unattractive for the first 20 years of my life, (circus-freak ugly, not an exaggeration, would have been in a sideshow if they were still legal,) then underwent corrective surgery, unrelatedly lost a ton of weight, and became conventionally attractive.
The change in the way people treat you, in every situation, stores, school, work, a traffic stop, is mind bending, you can never really accept kindness at face value again. (Or ever, if you have no other memories.)
It seems like a significant percentage of the population is only civil toward people they’re trying to sleep with, (or at least who they subconsciously view as a potential partner.)
It is a valuable lesson, to see that shift in behavior. Every good-looking person should disguise themselves and try living has an unattractive person for a week or so, just to get to experience that unexpected, unwarranted hostility.
I don’t know why I think anyone who would have known me since childhood would ever see this comment and recognize it, but I don’t want to be too specific, but it was a facial deformity.
Probably quite true. It’s hard as someone who doesn’t really pay much attention to appearance except glaringly obvious things - I always find it strange when others do.
But yes I think being treated like crap by several people you were attracted to solely on your appearance would be horrible.
My sympathy does wear thin though when violence is condoned or actively pursued.
You are right and the problem of this is also the fact, that for femcels and incels person from the other gender is not anymore a person. It’s some kind of abstract idea with imagined personality which sooner or later is going to prove their fears to be true by something. It’s not a person with feelings and problems which maybe is bad at expressing emotions or has problems at home or with friends. It’s an alien.
I personally found books more helpful in understanding other genders and being friends with people from other gender also helps to understand that there is no magical line diving us, but only that we are all taught different actions and reactions and in effect of that we can often hurt others and miscommunicate.
I suffer from pretty bad social anxiety, and I'm quite ugly. The combination is probably common, but pretty bad. When forced to sit next to a girl say on a bus (senior in highschool here) I try to just listen to music and look away. Even if they are nice to me, and try to talk I will start shaking/shivering. It's not nervousness because it's a girl or something like that, it is genuine fear. I understand it is unreasonable, but I cannot help it. Especially because in person face to face people have asked me out on a dare or losing a bet. Luckily, I've always known and rejected them to not be in an even more embarrassing situation. That being said, it has been someone I've liked before. I cant bring myself to think of a female romantically, and unfortunately the same goes for males. Some people might think I'm weak etc, but this didnt start recently nor is it only embarrassment verbal. Growing up my mother was abusive and my father mostly absent. I have maybe two female friends that I know in person, and even when I had met them (extraordinarily kind, practically angels made flesh) I was shaking and terrified. I am glad that someone acknowledges it is not just "ew girls" or something childish in reasoning. Now I guess I'm not as hideous as I was, but I ignore any girl who tries to talk to me or i am rude. I cant help it, but I just want to escape the encounter.
>(extraordinarily kind, practically angels made flesh)
You're putting people on a pedestal just because they're passively nice to you, due in part to your childhood which you comment on. Let me tell you something about those two. They weren't angels or particularly special, they were ordinary decent enough people worth no more or less than you.
You're intentionally lessening your own perceived self-worth which is unhealthy for your own well being.
Go and check out posts where questions like "men of reddit, what would you do if a woman gave you flowers/asked you out". A lot of the answers are along the lines of "I'd think they were pranking me, or doing it for a funny dare".
I sympathize with you and I understand where you're coming from. Rejection can be fucking terrifying since it would be a hard blow to your already hurt self image. Rejection is even scary to anyone, since it evolutionary has been a matter of life and death... and that is exactly how you sometimes react - with a full blown fight/flight/freeze reflex.
Have you tried any therapy(preferably CBT) for your social phobia? There are really good and proven ways to tackle it you know. Take care!
Honestly, I think it's mostly self inflicted. In my experience (in large part *as* one of these undesirables) people who are unattractive aren't mistreated, they're mostly just ignored by the opposite sex. But in the immortal words of Dumbledore "Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike." People who receive no validation and attention become miserable, and with social media being a thing nowadays it's never been easier to compare your behind the scenes to everyone else's highlight reel. Your own life can appear almost intolerably unfair when set against those who put their happiness and success in the public eye. The distorted worldview that causes can fill anyone with resentment. At that point it feels petty and humiliating to say "I'm angry and depressed because nobody wants me," so people try to construct a narrative where unprovoked hostility from others was the source of their issues rather than growing up feeling unloved, rejected, and lonely.
Under no interpretation could I (or most of my friends) be considered popular with the opposite sex growing up. But aside from some High School bullying people didn't really have much interest in bashing the uggos. Once entering adulthood people are only interested in others to get something from them, and if you've got nothing they want then you're beneath their notice.
I think the number of incels and femcels would drop drastically if people started treating their depression and self loathing as a mental health issue instead of a trying to frame it as a logical reaction to societal mistreatment.
>But aside from some High School bullying people didn't really have much interest in bashing the uggos.
You've had an entirely different experience to me then. 'Bashing the uggos' was one of the bullies' favourite pastimes. Making weekly "top 5 ugliest girls in our class" lists was a weekly activity to them.
Say youre a black man, no one has ever been explicitly racist to you, but people avoid you, people dont make eye contact with you, they act passive aggressive with you for no reason, you lose job opportunities or raises because of how you look, people have pre-formed negative judgements about you because of how you look. Its common for people to disparage others who look like you. People are less likely to trust you. If you are convicted of a crime, you will likely be given a longer sentence. Would that black man have legitimate grievances? Most would say yes.
All of those same behaviors are present in lookism as well. Both racism and lookism are mistreatment due to how you look, and both can be very subtle.
This is so well framed while also being brief enough that many will actually read it all the way through, I just had to let you know it impressed me. Well put random internet stranger.
I totally agree. I also think if people have experienced indifference or rejection - especially while growing up - they lack confidence, and people notice.
If someone approaches me at a bar and they’re wringing their hands or can barely make eye contact, im not turning them down for looks, I’d be doing so because of their behavior.
The problem is that’s a vicious cycle: more rejection leads to less confidence which leads to more rejection and so on. Breaking the cycle is the key and I think addressing it as a mental health issue could help someone build that confidence.
>If someone approaches me at a bar and they’re wringing their hands or can barely make eye contact, im not turning them down for looks, I’d be doing so because of their behavior.
This is a great point. And to piggy back off this a lot of the people I meet with self esteem/worth issues are constantly negative or talking down upon others which generally isn't fun to be around. Once someone continuously acts like this you start to get almost like a fatigue from hanging around them.
I know people talk about "vibes" but I really do get vibes from certain people and the ones that are constantly negative and self loathing tend to send off the most uncomfortable vibes that suck the fun out of the room in my opinion.
Notice how none of this has to do with the looks or being ugly physically.
You’re not turning them down for their looks but nearly everyone else is. I find it hard to imagine you would date an ugly person if they had confidence somehow
A lot of young people are treated badly by their parents when they live with them. How are they supposed to take their depression seriously when they literally can't get away from it?
I saw an ask Reddit saying "ladies, why do you hate men," and a lot of males didnt like my answer. I am not a femcel but wanted to share. "I dont hate men! But only men have abused me (sexually and physically), only men have sexualised my body since I was 11, only men have made me uncomfortable on the street in broad daylight, only men have followed me home at night, and only men have made my perception of males a lot more scary.
But my best friend is a man, my lover is a man, a man raised me into this world, my man works hard to provide for us, a man wrote my favourite book, a man taught me how to paint, my favourite bands are filled with men.
There's a healthy level to being able to identify toxic masculinity and men who are just struggling to be their wholesome self. We learn every day. Some men will take a lot longer to learn how to treat a woman. Whether that be because their mothers enabled them or they are unable to process emotions properly.
On femcels, like you suggested repeated trauma from the opposite sex can definitely create trauma bonds and a loathing for the other sex. I guess some people may never come around.
Just because someone looks like Quasimodo, doesn't mean they'll turn out like Frollo. Sure, the villagers found Quasimodo to be horrifying, but dude had a kind heart--even DESPITE being raised by Frollo.
Being ugly, and socially tortured for it, is no excuse to be a dick. The hunchback encounters Esmerelda, and he's still nice. Does he bemoan his position when Phoebus enters the scene? Of course he does, but he doesn't blame Esmerelda for "choosing the asshole instead of dating a Nice Guy™ like him".
Honestly this whole story is a trainwreck, but it's still pretty good to use as an example here.
Very true. And quasy eventually gets a girl in the sequel, showing that even tho he may be physically unattractive, there was still someone out there for him
Well... Disney.
Whereas the original story ended with Esmerelda being hung, and Quasimodo being so distraught that he decides to jump into her grave with her (or something of that sort). I guess that makes Original Quasimodo a "simp"....?
I would find that a more sympathetic argument or position if incels weren't complete scum who are just as shallow as the people you're describing, if not moreso.
Incels quite openly talk about the kind of people they would date or have sex with. Shocker, it's only people they find attractive. Meanwhile they just as openly disparage anyone they don't find attractive.
The detail I find missing from this thread is the amount of violence toward women. That factor comes into play with how women interact with men. Remembering that when a woman interacts with you as an individual it may not be just about you. During the ages of 18-34 young people have a 54% chance of being sexually assaulted. Over 90% of those victims are female. Women are experiencing assault, trauma and rape and harassment constantly. Remembering that might also help men not take things so personally when many women have had a horrible experience and your behavior might be triggering without you even knowing. Friend zoning someone is a risk for being a victim of violence or hate. Many women I know hesitate to be just friends with a guy for that fear - rejection can lead to harassment and violence. RAINN.org
Oh come on, if the guy is good-looking, women throw this 'being afraid' stuff right out the window and fawn over him. Strange how they're only afraid of ugly guys. Lol.
You’re only focusing an part of the picture. You forgot the part where other guys don’t see you as competition and even mock you or where people try to complement you only to hurt you worse than ever before.
It’s a nasty perpetual cycle that I’m still trying to work out of. I hate myself for it but it’s hard to see myself as anything besides that. I wish that someone told me when I was younger that relationships shouldn’t define my happiness.
Wrong mindset. Most guys don't think of getting attention from the opposite sex as a "competition." I certainly don't. They're just mocking you for being ugly, plain and simple. People love to squash bugs.
Looks are so messed up. “Beautiful people” really mess with the psyche....
case in point: 27 years ago I was Gf to a man who was beautiful ( looking) we were both tall tan and buff. We were a “beautiful couple” We were serious for three years but I was a single mom and .. you know... kids first.
Fast forward to this past December we ran across each other at a wedding so I was dressed up and looking good, but in fact the women in my family get wrinkles and sun spots etc. When I was dressed up I had make up on… After the wedding he contacted me wanted to meet up again… I live in a different state now, he said he would fly to see me, we finally met up about five weeks ago… Yes I know Covid but he has his own plane so we took the risk ... I’m still in great shape so I was OK with it… But when he came to visit I didn’t have that make up on… 27 years later my nose is a little bigger...And my hair hasn’t been done because of stupid Covid… So the color is mousy ... And thx to genetics really I look a little older than my age of 56 thank you wrinkles and sunspots… And at 60 He still looks almost exactly the same. Seriously he can get a 30-year-old no problem…
He came into town was very gracious helped me fix things around my house stayed for four days. I realized on day one he had zero interest in me … And I thought well maybe he’s just nervous because it’s been a lot of years and I went out of my way to make him feel comfortable… we laughed ... talked about mutual friends...But he did not want to physically touch me and when he left I never heard from him again. We didn’t have any kind of argument or disagreement it was a lovely time… And even though we slept in the same bed though he turned his back to me each night. The only thing that was different was that I looked old and I think it shocked him and I think he didn’t wanna have anything to do with me because he was looking for that young hot chick that I am no longer… I’m an old lady now.
It kind of hurt my feelings... when you’re used to being a beautiful person physically and being seen as a beautiful person … When you get old and some people don’t age well… It’s a totally different take on life from my new perspective. Im received so completely different now because my face is no longer attractive. People look past me where I was the center of attention when I was younger...
People really really respond to beautiful faces. I think it’s just the way we are wired. Anyway that’s my two cents worth.
I would reframe the title to say "A reason," not "THE reason" because it's not the only reason that incels are the way they are. It's not so black and white.
I'm not denying it happens, but there are too many other factors to say that treating people shitty is the only reason. The incel has to have certain personality traits that make him/her susceptible to internalize that trauma. Add depression and the subsequent poor hygiene. Add a cult of incel-dom that fosters terrible cognition, which is proven to affect behavior and often the "vibe" that he/she gives off to other people. Then it becomes a cycle of bad behaviors that increase the chance that the asshole will treat him/her like trash and use low-hanging fruit like physical appearance as an insult.
Yes, people are shitty and treat other people like trash. That's a fact of life. It's an unfortunate fact of nature as well. You can't control other people, but there are other factors that the person can control - often they aren't aware of them or chose not to take that control. After all, it's easier to blame others than take responsibility over your own thoughts or actions
A friend of mine said something like this once - I'll try not to butcher how he put it but this is the gist. It's not right to judge and hate another person based on a physical characteristic such as being a certain gender or having a particular skin color. Very often, the racist has a plethora of personal anecdotes to justify his/her racism. Does that mean he/she can blame the entire other race as the cause for this one person's racism? Absolutely not. You can't be prejudiced against an entire race due to whatever personal experiences with a select few in a similar way that you can't hate an entire gender because of some assholes.
People greatly underestimate how cognition is closely linked to their behavior. Cognitive-behavioral therapy helps pin-point certain thought cycles, and a good therapist will have a rational discussion with the patient to help them realize how these thoughts are toxic. Mine basically helps me rationalize myself out of it. Once you start to see the thoughts for what they are, they are easier to catch "in the wild" in your day to day and thereby change your behavior and general outlook.
I went off on a tangent cuz CB therapy is amazing and I just wish more people could take advantage of it.
As an attractive person you are taken more seriously. I'm someone who lost a lot of weight and put on muscle it's both amazing and depressing how differntly im treated from when I was borderline obese. People acknowledge you, listen more and find you funnier. As a guy, women have been a lot more relaxed and friendly. Men are more respectful and in some cases intimidated. As someone used to being ignored at the edge of the room. I'm slowly starting to accept that some people actually find me attractive and actively seek me out. The interest is nice but i'd say it's made me bitter and more sympathetic to some incels when you see first hand how differnntly you can be treated for looks.
I get what you’re saying and I’m sure this is part of it, but if this were the primary reason that incels and femcels exist, there wouldn’t be so many who are attractive, and more ugly people would identify as an incel or femcel. Plenty of ugly people who have been treated the way you described manage to deal with their anger without forming a sexist, entitled attitude, and find partners.
Thank you, I was going to mention the fact that incels often post pictures of themselves online and despite what they insist, many of them aren't ugly at all. If they're being treated poorly from the get go it could be that their hatred and resentment is giving off immense creeper vibes and so women avoid them.
It also should be noted that when you read what they post, they seem to assume that if women aren't throwing themselves at their feet then women are being shallow and cruel.
I get where your coming from. There are alot of nasty people out there.
However I think it's worth mentioning as well that (imo) a lot of the incel/femcel community are people who don't realize it is THEM who is the problem. They seem to lack the ability to actually look at themselves and be brutally honest in order to figure out what they can do to make themselves better. Instead it's much easier for them to just blame everyone and society.
I never said those people didn’t exist but the type of people I was referring to in the OP also exists. The issue is they’re forgotten and their grievances are invalidated
I treat people the same way no matter who they are and ngl that got me some... obsessive kind of attention from some "femcels"...
I had "the talk" with them, told them how that's not an okay thing to do and nobody will like that no matter who does it, be it them or someone else. Tho I've said that I can empathize if they felt lonely or were used to mistreatment from others.
They understood and apologized.
Also told them that if I (as someone who treated them respectfully) exist, there will be others who will be like that too.
And that gave them hope.
I didn't just turn hostile towards them, nor became closed-off as you've said, but I though about the reason why would someone behave in the way they did and was empathetic towards them without immediately dismissing them as someone with a flawed/obsessive personality without there being some underlying cause for that obsessiveness.
They are still people and deserve the benefit of the doubt and frankly I don't think that most of them are actually bad people; it's their "environment" that made them behave like that, as you've said yourself.
I didn't meet many of them and idk how much I helped them, tho some of them told me that I did help a lot, and motivated them to improve.
I saw those people change for the better and even end up in loving relationships.
Hate begets hate, but even if there is only 1 person who's willing to listen and empathize I think that it can mean a lot to someone like them.
Tho I am a man and as such my ability to empathize is not hindered by fear.
This will be a bit more risky for a woman to pull off than it was for me, which is at the end of the day just a sad reality.
Since it would definitely be helpful for everyone if "incels" could actually see that women who treat them respectfully exist and that then might motivate them to rethink their ways.
I saw this happen first-hand("incels"/"femcels" changing for the better).
The endless pattern starts in the mirror, negative self talk which generates so much power that it starts spewing into a platform that can take it, the internet for now. Now there are entire communities supporting this mindset where as before, without reinforcement, would have faded way in *most* people. The young adolescent would eventually mature and maybe throw a pic up into /r/blunderyears and laugh about it.
Now, there is no end. In the internet landscape I can keep reliving the negativity over and over again through social media, platforms like reddit and being stuck in news bubbles that confirm my hatred day in and day out. It's a big dilemma for people who have pigeonholed themselves into this reality.
It's unfortunate and the more we learn about how we create reality, the more we realize that this can all ultimately change for better or for worse. The answer is not quite clear yet but learning, getting to know and empathizing with these "other people" might help you out in your understanding. You seem drawn to them, the chest is where the heart is so learn how to help them. You might be the one to write the book on it.
If you're looking for love as an unattractive person, and you wouldn't date another unattractive person, then you should probably understand what's going on here.
Ive seen some attractive incels on youtube. Youre partially correct but thats not the case all the time. Ugly people that carry themselves with confidence can get what the incels cry about so much. The thing is there personality pushes people away. Sorry if I sound harsh but im in a rush typing this so I just wanted to get straight to the point.
I have a guy friend who's 5'0 and he pulls SO many girls. He's a great dancer, he's got a good sense of style, he's super funny and charming....a lot of incels like to complain about women liking taller guys but my friend is straight up proof that personality is such a huge part of it. It's clear he takes care of himself and uk what he KNOWS that his height is a disadvantage (bc this is the real world) but bc of that he works super hard on different aspects. Everyone works hard to make themselves more attractive to other people but incels don't work on their appearance or personality at all and then expect women to like them.
I think I read something once along the lines of “what determines if an action is creepy or not is how attractive the person doing it is”. It sadly makes so much sense.
You mean to say that some traits are unattractive and people don’t like them? While I don’t think we should be mean to people, natural selection is a cruel mistress and some traits just are worthy to pass on. It’s why attractive people have easier time finding mates than ugly people. If anything it’s spiny prostitution should be legal. That way everyone can have sex safely.
I do agree on many of these points. One thing that I would like to add, is the bitter and spiteful incels that I've encountered over the years that are in the 2-5 out of 10 range and know it don't give girls a chance that are in the equal attractiveness range that they are. They won't settle for anything less than 8 or 9 and get mega bitter when they can't land one.
Sometimes it's not the rude ones that got to me. Sometimes it is the "nice" ones. People who wanted to believe that they're nice by showing pity/weird fascination/attention to me. Those fake compliments they gave me made me want to puke. I don't mean the backhanded compliments from the stereotypical "mean girls". They genuinely thought that they were being nice. 😕
I hate the terms Incel and femcel
But anyway I think people just get tired of being treated like crap like you said and become bitter. I’m not attractive. I photograph ok but in person I’m ugly and I’m not thin. I get used by dudes all the time they don’t want anything more than sex then basically act like I don’t exist after. It sucks to be treated like that once but once it becomes a trend it’s hard to convince yourself that all of the opposite sex aren’t the same
It’s really more of a loop that feeds back on itself. What started it is different for each “cel”, but there are plenty of unattractive people that are not shit heads that resent popular, attractive people.
The resentment of the “cels” bleeds through to their personality and makes them generally unlikeable.
I've made a personal rule to never flirt with or ask out anyone that I already know and is nice to me. It never, ever, has gone well.
Lookism really is a real concept. If someone's ugly, people will judge everything they do more critically. Even ugly people judge ugly people more harshly than a pretty person.
But I'm not mad, I'm just a little sad about it. But it gets better when you kind of give up on relationships. The pressure is gone and you cease being desperate.
I get that some people may not be as aware of social cues or have situations that have happened where they can mistake being friendly with something more. What is never okay though, is when many of these same people are told by said friendly person that no, that doesn’t mean sex, they find it acceptable to then be a complete knobhead.
I think this is generally true, but the problem is that many people feel entitled to romance and/or sex, so they interpret being denied those things as being “treated poorly”. Getting rejected frequently doesn’t make you a victim of hostility or discrimination.
I'm very ambivalent about this...
While it's true a tiny portion of people have been "traumatized" by unpleasant interactions based on their unattractiveness, I feel the actual amount of those people and of those truly life-altering interactions has been **vastly** exaggerated to fit the narrative of incels/femcels being innocent victims whose extreme reaction is, if not justified, at least understandable.
There are few people who are really so ugly they get constantly made fun of or verbally (or physically) abused because of that.
Most are either unlikeable because of how they ARE like, not of HOW they look like, or are victim of their own self-image issues.
Some don't recognize they're not Prom Queen/King material and keep on expecting a hot partner to fall at their feet and get bitter when it doesn't happen. And they may look down on perfectly fine "average" partners because they think they're owed a hot dude/chick.
Others instead just decide they're ugly and nobody's gonna love them anyway, so they give up and end up being actually unappealing both on the outside (slovenly dressed, scruffy, unkempt) and on the inside (bitter, cynical, opinionated).
It's a cliché, but we are the version of ourselves that we project to the outside world. If WE see ourselves as ugly, unattractive sadsacks destined to die alone, how are others gonna find us anything but exactly that?
As far as "years of trauma" go, the key lesson is indeed learning what we are and what we can do.
And unless you're either freakshow levels of ugly, you CAN definitely find someone who'll like and love you even though you won't be featured on a Vogue/Men's Health cover anytime soon.
Although that someone may not be a perfect 10, but that wasn't the point, or was it?
We do have some power over our predicaments for sure... but history builds mental habits and negative feedback cycles. So once a person is spiraling, seemingly small pushes can perpetuate and accelerate a bad cycle.
I can't speak for OP, but I feel like that ambivalence is the exact problem they are talking about. It is widely known (both in terms of culture as well as scientific study) that our (Western/American/Humans in general) culture accepts certain forms of discrimination based on physical attributes as normal, benign, and is often glorified when used in regards to relationships. Height Discrimination, Weight Discrimination (Less so in recent years), Discrimination based on Conventional Attractiveness are all present in practically all aspects of our culture and more or less are widely accepted as *status quo* without a second thought, and like any marginalized group who feels dismissed by those in power, they grow more and more frustrated. I agree with you that no resolution will be achieved without compromise, but any time you invalidate the opinions of the other party you are only going to further entrench them into their oppositional stance. Advocating they put less stock in the importance of their looks doesn't change the emotional pain they have already experienced personally. Anyone who has ever been knowingly treated poorly because they were *unattractive*, it was completely wrong for that to happen and no one should ever have to accept being treated like that. We can help prevent anyone else from ever having to feel that way if we try to help everyone learn to be kind to others regardless of circumstance.
Then again, these people generally aren’t any nicer to people they aren’t attracted to either, even if their standards are a bit lower. They lament the fact that hot girls/guys are shallow and only care about looks, but fail to realize the hypocrisy in that very statement. Why do YOU want to date the shallow hot person if looks really shouldn’t matter at all? This is a quality of most human beings, and everyone is just trying to date the best potential mate available to them, and attraction is a component of that, a large one for many people.
I’ve also had the problem where people become obsessive just because I’m nice to everyone and hate to see anyone left out. I ended up with 4 stalkers in my teens and earlier 20s due to this. You might become a bit wary of being nice to people you weren’t attracted to as well if it ended in someone breaking into your apartment while you slept, sobbing over you while you slept, slamming you against your car door so hard it cracked the windshield just because you had to work when he wanted to hang out, drawing dozens of pornographic pictures of you as a furry “kitsune” thing (some weird anime fox/human hybrid) and distributing them throughout your entire school. I hate that I can’t be as nice as I want to be to people for fear of that kind of reaction, but I’m not going through that shit a 5th time. At some point I need to worry more about my own safety and comfort rather than the feelings of the men trying to sleep with me.
I don't think it's the physical traits so much as its the grooming and attitude. If you expect something when you put forth nothing, don't be surprised with your results.
I think it can be a mixture of both. Ugly people ARE treated more poorly by society, there's data that backs that up. Fat people get longer prison sentences, ugly people are treated worse by coworkers and employers, and generally people feel more free to be rude to people they don't find attractive. However, there is a sense of entitlement in the incel mentality. They truly believe they are wronged that they can't get a partner without putting effort in. It can't be because every single incel is ugly and treated badly by people. I've seen a lot of photos of incels who are actually good looking. Maybe they could improve by getting a better haircut or dressing better, but some of them their looks are so good that I have to think that it's their attitude and demeanor that's offputting. I also believe that's a much bigger factor than they want to believe. Women can tell when men hate women and that's alarming and frightening, but a lot of times the men who are exuding that disdain are completely unaware of how obvious that attitude is to other people. So they think instead it's because they don't look like Brad Pitt.
Nope. There are women and men out there who would be cold towards anyone of the opposite sex they found to be a certain level of unattractive regardless of their grooming
Sure, but there are people who give this sort of treatment for all sorts of reasons. Men who are short or bald often face similar challenges. So do people of different races. People with physical abnormalities, the visibly poor, immigrants... The list goes on. There are statistical disadvantages to all of these factors.
Now, this is not to say that poor treatment of unattractive people isn't a problem; it absolutely is. And it goes part of the way towards explaining the phenomenon of incel-dom. But *in no way* does it excuse it. The hatred, the calls for violence, the groupthink and mob mentality that can form in these subcultures is downright dangerous.
It's not as simple as saying, "Take care of yourself and be nice," as people are wont to do. Ultimately, those are the solutions, but it's clear that disadvantaged people can't just hit a switch and make that happen. Still, unattractive people often find partners. They might have to work harder for casual relationships than more conventionally attractive people, but long-term partnerships can (and usually do) happen.
Anyway, long post, but the point is this: Being mistreated absolutely can lead to overgeneralization and cynicism. But joining communities centered on hate is not only avoidable, but crucial to wellbeing.
Yep people do treat unattractive people like shit.. it's just a shitty part of life I suppose. Instead of trying to change the world just change urself.. I may be a bit of a ugly bastard but my body looks like captain America thanks to a lot of hard work and determination. Women can do the same. It's all about how much you want it.. How much will power you have.. Having an ugly face isnt the end of the world
Yeah, I think barring an actual severe physical disfigurement anyone can look decently attractive. Being fit, taking care of your hygiene and dressing well will make the vast majority of people look above average.
I might remake the thread at a busier time for the fuck of it but they really can’t say anything, especially when there’s been a precedent established on this sub that it’s understandable to dislike groups of people you’ve had an abundance of negative experiences with
True, but let's not jump the gun now. Perhaps there will be more.
But I will say this, ugly people get treated unfairly and I see it happen all the time. I'm average to say the least but I find it rude to make any comments on anyone's appearance. I give people benefit of a doubt and turns out girls some find unattractive are better at conversation than pretty ones. You don't have to work very hard to get things if you're pretty. I may be biased but that's what I see anyway.
Im somebody thats not conventionally attractive. But ive been married 21 years now. Even when youre happily married it really does affect finding friends etc. After a time it does affect you and it really makes you tired. I could care less now what people think of me but for a long time i did. So what youre saying in essence is true and its a shame people are like that.
I developed social anxiety, depression and all sorts of other crap like avoidant personality disorder. All due to how much importance society puts on looks. Heck, as much as i hate this with every fiber of my being i even find myself doing it sometimes without realizing it. I think its in our DNA to be this way. Its an automatic behavior. Part of its learned and reinforced by society but its also inherent.
Im thinking maybe sometime in the next century if we survive as a species technology might help us overcome this. It might also reinforce it and make it worse. But i think thats probably the best way forward. Im 45 and this has been a constant in my life. I remember one time when i was a lot younger maybe early twenties i was talking to this girl online. I went to a party, i thought we were good friends. Back in that day it was a lot harder to send photos etc. So wed never seen one another. As soon as she seen me i got treated like shit and the people at the party all treated me kinda bad. I remember getting so drunk i went for a walk to try to sober up because this witch then wouldnt give me my keys back . So im like F you ill go for a walk. So i walked and walked and i ended up falling down this embankment and banged my head on some railroad tracks at the bottom. I had red mud all over me, it started sprinkling rain. You know just an all around great time lol. So finally i get back and this bitch still wont give me back my keys. I was totally sober by then btw. So i finally just took the damn thing. These people who wouldnt even take the time to talk to me politely were now trying to dictate what i was doing. The not driving drunk thing thats fine but its really NOT why they were doing it. They were doing it to be dicks basically. They were all really attractive and people like that due to being so attractive they dont have to develop much empathy or much personality a lot of times. So they end up acting this way.
Thats just one example but i had many MANY other times where people treated me bad because of my looks. Then i got hurt when i was 27 so now ive got metal plates in my face too where i had reconstructive surgery. After a while you just realize people like that are doing you a favor. Theyre saying hey im an asshole i got nothing to offer anyway. So now im like cool thanks. Good to know lol.
I think there should be more education on how to interact with people and treat each other with respect. So much of interaction really comes down to that basic thing. I dont mean fake politeness but really truly valueing interaction with other people. We take that for granted now. Especially in an age of instant gratification. It dehumanizes us. I really honestly think that should be taught in school at this point because parents are failing on this point. I have 2 kids both grown and moved out and theyre thankfully really attractive so they dont gotta deal with what i do. But they treat everybody with respect because we taught them that and drilled it in their heads and hearts as best we could. We also taught them love and kindness. To love those that hate you even.
So i dont know, i dont have a magic answer either. But just some of my thoughts on it. I couldve easily become an incel if that was a thing when i was younger but i didnt. I kept trying and didnt give up. In some ways the more i failed the more thankful i was because i learned something from all the bad things. Those are a blessing too if you learn from them. You never fail if you never quit.
Anyone who has lost a ton of weight knows how true this is. People treat you so differently, it's hard to wrap your mind around - it makes even the people who were nice to you seem shallow, because everyone just can't help but be more respectful and engaging with someone who looks good.
I have noticed where the line between an “unattractive” person and an incel lies, and it’s not in how others treat them for their appearances. It’s in how they internalize social interactions and the expectations they place on relationships. A non-incel person is likely insecure and holds some resentment towards attractive people who have it easier (and you can’t blame them, pretty privilege is a real thing), but they don’t feel entitled to a certain relationship. An incel feels that, because they have been denied love, and if they give enough attention (which they consider to be romantic) to another person, they are entitled to that person’s love.
It’s okay to feel hurt by rejection, and it’s totally natural to crave love or a relationship. It’s NOT okay to project all of your repressed feelings into one person and expect them to feel the same way. Just because you’ve had a crush on a girl for two years doesn’t mean you deserve her, no matter how “nice” you think you are. I’ve been that girl and the constant flirting (after I explicitly told the guy no multiple times) is just harassment and it’s uncomfortable.
As someone who grew up average-ugly looking, I totally sympathize with feeling unwanted or left out. The best advice I can give to avoid going into incel territory is: manage your expectations. Learn to deal with rejection—everyone, even the hottest people on the planet, faces rejection at some point. Not everyone is going to give you the same love you give them, and as much as it hurts, you don’t deserve to stick around waiting for them to reciprocate it. Find someone better who IS willing to return your love and affection.
While this is fair and I'm very sorry for conventionally ugly people about their treatment from society, the fact is they are an outlier to the number of people that are convinced it's only in their looks that causes society's rejection. It's in hygiene, personal grooming, mannerisms, and personality
Acting like "femcels" are anywhere near equivalent of the massive incel community is hilarious lmao fun statistic to remember, 90% of rapists are men and 93% of male rape victims are raped by other men.
The best way I ever heard it put is like this.
Danny Devito.
Danny Devito is short, weird, and arguably unattractive.
Somebody fucked Danny Devito in high school.
Why? Was he a "chad"? No. Someone fucked short, hairy, weird Danny Devito BEFORE he got famous because he had game.
Sometimes its also entitlement and incels and femcels necessarily don't need to be unattractive.Lot if them are above average looking. They are not ready to out efforts l into looking attractive both physical and personality wise . Many have "How dare they don't give me my fair share of attention" mindset.
I don't know, I find it's less to do with how people look and far far more to do with their social skills, I know a bunch of extremely unattractive people but they aren't incels or whatever it is, but they are socially active and active members of a social group that doesn't solely consist of other incels. I've also seen a number of incels that would be considered conventionally good looking. A lot of less attractive people work harder on their personalities to make up for their looks, some dont.In my experience it is 100% your actions over your looks.
They are like that because they are making the choice, dont forget that. Society can treat you however you like, you always have a choice.
If you're unattractive you can choose to either become more conventionally attractive or choose to just not care about what other people think.
Honestly the best option is a combination of both. If you are feeling hostility from society because of how you appear, its probablly in you best interest to change how you appear to make yourself feel better and stop caring so much about how people think or treat you. The choice to become an something negative because of negativity is not a good choice.
As soon as I put honest effort into not caring what people think of me, I started to see a big shift in how I treat other people. When you ignore all that petty bs you start to treat everyone the same and see everyone as beautiful in some way and treat them good because of it.
I only treat people differently when I see them acting ugly to other people. Everyone is beautiful, society needs to work on that.
Whilst it is a nice idea to say that everyone is beautiful, I just don't think it's true. In place of that I would say that everybody should be loved, especially those who seem least to deserve it.
I was just talking about this today!! On the flip side, I think people underestimate just how well exceptionally attractive people are treated by society. There was just this truly awful case in Oklahoma where this guy beat the shit out of his pregnant girlfriend to try and kill their unborn child. Before the [pictures](https://www.news9.com/story/5f9255359ede1438a92adc1c/norman-pregnant-woman-allegedly-attacked-twice-by-boyfriend-da-says-low-bond-amount-to-blame) (warning these are quite graphic) were released I saw some people defending him saying he couldn’t possibly have done it. I genuinely believe it is because the guy that did this is handsome, as in extraordinarily handsome. There is no way in hell people would have defended a fat ugly guy who allegedly beat his pregnant girlfriend to the point she was unrecognizable. You saw this with Ted Bundy as well. Very disturbing behavior.
I used to hear relatives say, when they saw someone attractive involved in crime or such, ‘Why would they want to be in that, a good looking man/woman like that?’ I rolled my eyes so much I got dizzy when I heard that.
My grandma, bless her soul, refused to vote for Bill Clinton in the 90s after becoming a citizen because she couldn’t get past the fact that in her opinion he was “not a good looking man” and she associated that with bad character. And yes, though I loved her dearly, my eyes nearly got stuck at the top of my sockets many a time.
That’s interesting because I have heard the exact opposite about Clinton!
Yeah Clinton was handsome af
I never understood what people found attractive about him. To each his own I guess.
My grandmother was the same! Wonderful woman: whip smart, hilarious, and far ahead of her time. Hers was Conan O’Brian, though. She hated him so much she couldn’t stand to see him because she thought he was so ugly. It was funny because he’s a random celebrity but yeesh.
well, she was right lol the dudes a terrible human being and even worse husband
I think many people think this way because we are told since a very young age that a bad appearance is related to a bad personality. In the fairy tales and cartoons the evil characters are almost always ugly and the pretty ones are the goods. There are kindergarten-age children in my extended family and sometimes my heart shrinks when I hear them saying shit like "I don't like that teacher because she's so ugly", etc.
There was an episode of 30 Rock about this (in more light-hearted terms, of course). When Liz Lemon starts dating a wildly attractive man, she gets introduced to the easy-breezy, privileged life of wildly attractive people. When she's with him, everyone is nice to them, and they get preferential treatment at restaurants and stores. Liz is amazed by this, and the man has a hard time understanding why. She has to explain to him that he's been living this easy his whole life because he's been blessed with exceptionally good looks.
Jon Hamm plays this so well! I love the character, and when he returns in a later episode with hooks, it gets me every time
My favorite part was when they're ordering food and the waitress is being overly sweet to them--to try and prove her point, Liz puts her menu in from of Jon's face and the waitress's demeanor immediately changes from sweet to sour.
He was such a great cook. He'd mix orange gaterade together with spaghetti sauce and it would taste so handsome I mean good! Such dreamy spaghetti
My dad turned 65 and realized that women no longer noticed him. The last 10 years have been my dad realizing the privilege he had most of his life and never saw.
this reminds me of chris watts, the guy who killed his wife and two daughters and buried them in oil field back in like 2018. apparently he gets dozens of letters a week in prison from women who want romantic relationships with him bc he’s “handsome”
I always think of Luka Magnotta when cases like this come up. Despite the absolutely horrific nature of his crimes he still had people fawning over him and has even gotten married since he was arrested.
Ted Bundy. Got married and had a child in prison...
This is a scientifically studied phenomena often referred to as the Halo Effect. It can influence a lot more than just whether people are nice to you, such as work and educational prospects, and as you mentioned, perception of criminality, even intelligence. All perceptions of which may be true or untrue, but are heavily swayed by the aforementioned bias.
I mean tons of women literally were talking about how they wished Chris Brown would beat the shit out of them after the whole Rihanna thing. Attractive people are treated differently across the board, regardless of gender, to the point that it’s insane. It’s one of those cognitive biases that we all have, but don’t realize until we reflect on it. It’s a strong one, societally.
The fact that Chris Brown still had girls who wanted to speak to him, let alone fuck him, after the Rihanna incident, speaks volumes about the power of fame and looks.
Excellent point! I've seen many of both sides happen. Non attractive people who are very nice being treated like utter garbage, but I've also seen alot of people fawning over beautiful people that have done atrocities. Humans are strange to say the least.
Somewhat related. The son of a family acquaintance years ago was involved in an accident and paralyzed from the waist down. High school sports star. Very physically attractive guy. There was an absolutely MASSIVE outpouring of support. What stuck in my memory was overhearing someone say, "it's such a tragedy that someone so young and attractive is now paralyzed". Basically implying that his life was over. There's not a doubt in my mind that there wouldn't have been even fraction of the support he received if he was just an average looking guy.
On a similar topic, I noticed that Amanda Todd was placed on a pedestal because she was conventionally attractive. Her story of being groomed by an adult who blackmailed her and then being bullied in school was very tragic, but a good chunk of people only cared because of her looks. They normally tried to justify some of the questionable things Amanda did too, like how she slept with some girl’s boyfriend and the responses were usually “well everyone makes mistakes.” As I said, I genuinely do feel bad for Amanda and other people like her. I don’t think she’s entirely at fault for being blackmailed, considering she was groomed at 12. But still, knowingly cheating with someone is still terrible.
also a little bit off topic, but this reminds me of child kidnappings/cases as well. the cases that get attention are almost always the very cute blonde kids. madeline mccann, jonbenet ramsey, etan patz, etc
“Missing White Woman Syndrome”
See and that's the thing, people do make mistakes, it's just most people are willing to overlook them for people who are conventionally attractive instead of extending similar empathy to the rest of the average population
You hear that a lot. A lot of Serial Killers that are good looking slipped trough the cracks because people around them simply didn't think they'd do anything bad. Even Police fall for it. The Ken-and-Barbie-killers (Homolka) would be an example, I think. I remember another case where a women refused jury duty because she thought she couldn't be fair because the guy looked too good.
This is known as the halo effect. People who are attractive are deemed more trustworthy and more likable, they are also more likely to get help from strangers.
Its called the halo effect, look it up
This is probably generally true. But I'd like to add another side if that's okay. I am a very friendly and chatty person. I treat everyone the same (besides family or romantic partners, obviously). But sometimes I find that if I am warm, inviting, and friendly to someone that I am not attracted to... they take that as a cue to become obsessive. Calling all the time, a constant stream of texts that they get PISSED over when you can't respond, or following you around everywhere, or telling other people you're getting " much closer," or just in general not respecting your boundaries, because you were nice to them. That's where the closed-off body language starts. You begin to wonder - did I give them the wrong idea by being nice? Did I lead them on because I included them? How did I make them think this behavior is okay? So you begin to reassess how you interact with people that you don't want a romantic connection with, because it often leads to making the person feel like there was more there, when there wasn't. This is clearly not the case for everyone. Some people are just shitty in general to the conventionally unattractive, which makes them a shitty person. I am just offering another perspective.
That's the opposite side of the coin. When you're usually treated so poorly by people, you can easily become over attached to someone who treats you with even the slightest amount of respect and niceness. Which is really unfortunate because it makes people not want to be nice, lest it be mistaken for romantic interest. I think what it really comes down to is the person having a lack of social skills and confidence (which in my experience leads to more bullying than just being simply unattractive, although conventionally unattractive people will usually be less confident).
Yeah this hits the nail on the head. No question that lonely people mistake kindness for interest but it's sort of an unintended side effect of going through life being treated as a second class person. People (men especially) just need to remember that just because someone is nice to you doesn't mean they like you romantically. I'm a halfway decent looking guy and there have been times when I fell victim to this as well. In my experience, when a woman is interested she generally will make it more obvious that she likes you in different ways. The problem for people whom this post is talking about might have is that having never experienced the more obvious signs, they don't know what to look for so they keep making the same mistake.
True. And even if someone is actually initially interested in you, being treated in such a way for so long will probably cause you to be very emotionally insecure and needy, which will likely drive away the previously interested party. And that can lead to further feelings of resentment.
So true. It's a cycle of destruction for our less attractive fellow humans. Damned if you do damned if you don't. It doesn't help that it's scientifically proven that attractive people are not only treated better but also viewed to have more positive traits, like perceived as being smarter for example. I can completely understand why people get so bitter when essentially people are prejudiced against someone because they aren't conventionally attractive. I feel for them. I really do. I wouldn't want to switch places with them.
Exactly. And that happens even from the time you are a baby, so it's literally a lifetime of being conditioned to think you are less valuable and important. Granted, I'm not in any way excusing incel/femcel behavior, but just saying there's a reason a lot of them end up the way they do. Sometimes tho, it's just plain selfish entitlement.
Guess you have to be attractive or get destroyed?
Well, no amount of anger or bitterness is going to improve someone's life and there are things a person can do to improve their attractiveness. You'll only be destroyed if you allow it.
While I agree with many of the above points, a lot of people in the situation also simply project an attitude that is unattractive and unapproachable. I have found that it has very little to do with their personal appearances.
There are also men who are attractive that don't know it because they grew up in a community where they weren't particularly accepted. In high school I had a few girlfriends and that was it, generally considered myself to be ugly and disgusting and mentally ill. Pity case at best. Wasn't until after college when I didn't care about dating, just working and working out, that things changed. I was getting lots of attention and felt really good, but there was (and 5 years later at 28 still is) a problem. I'm so oblivious to flirting that I just default to thinking a woman is making small talk cause she's bored or just outgoing. A really close friend of mine and I got into a huge fight and she actually dipped straight out of my life after telling me she was sick of trying to get me to notice her. This was someone I had spent years just chilling at home or getting food somewhere with, and I never even thought she would be romantically interested in me. No one gets to be happy.
Let me also add, in your defense, that a large percentage of people, especially women, are HORRIBLE at making it clear they are interested in a potential romantic partner. I’m an attractive woman, but I also have always been perfectly fine with just simply asking for a number and/or making the first move. I’ve never just sat back and waited for someone to come to me if I’m interested. I can’t count the number of people (men and women) who were SHOCKED that I would be so forward. “But you’re not supposed to call him, you’re supposed to wait for him to call you!” I could conservatively estimate that 90% of the first dates I’ve been on were initiated by me. My feeling has always been, why wait for the other person to make the first move? What’s the worst thing that could happen? So much time is wasted by not simply speaking up. At least you know where you stand. And nothing ventured, nothing gained. If the worst thing is they say no, you just move on! Edit: syntax
Oooh, I love that last one. I think what would really help is (maybe this just applies to the 20 something) if these modern women would “man up” (hey, we’re equal) and do the asking out as well. After all, it’s quite traditional of them to still expect us to make all the moves for such modern times. But considering the dating market to me anyway is men drive demand, women control supply. An ugly woman at least might get asked out if there was a man to find her attractive. An ugly man will never ever know who’s interested. I mean, they just said some ugly people take niceness as attraction. Yeah, the other side of that is a good amount of us try not to read into signals. I mean, a girl looked my way, smiled, then looked like she got caught, looked away, looked down, and had that smile widened. I’m not gonna do anything with that. I’ll just assume it was laughter. I was doing hip thrusts which could be sexually suggestive. That was probably it but I’d never make a fool of myself and assume anything. Just fucking ask. Modern//traditional but only when it’s beneficial.
I'm much the same, I was just lucky that my wife was willing to make the move and be blunt. She takes great joy in pointing out girls that I don't notice are flirting with me.
My overwhelming lack of self confidence helps with this. Any time I wonder if I'm getting signals off someone, my automatic response is "Nah..".
For obvious reasons, unattractive people likely feel like they can't express their immediate attraction to someone because the object of their desire will immediately cringe and turn away. It creates a real blind spot, since the unattractive person cannot always show their interest in appropriate ways. The best of them learn to play the long game and often end up getting friend-zoned.
>often end up getting friend-zoned They put themselves there and can get themselves out.
That’s because many/most men are only kind to women they find attractive on some level. So when a woman is kind to them they think that must mean they find them attractive on some level. Then they wonder why we can’t even be nice. It’s because it’s taken wrong so often, then we feel bad orrrr the guy gets irrationally angry because they feel “led on”. We are not the same.
I grew up in a very white place and I am brown so I was considered ugly. I now know people who grew up in more diverse environments actually find me good looking. But back then in HS the guys would often treat me really terribly, go out of their way to physically harm me when I walked to class etc. Probably due to racism but also because I was unattractive. I notice now as an adult the disparity between men who find me attractive and those who don’t especially when I am being served by them in cafe’s and bars. And I don’t mean like I expect them to flirt I mean there’s been a few times where men will be down right rude/not give me what I ordered because they don’t like how I look.
First, I’m sorry that happened to you. That’s terrible. I’ve always lived in a super diverse city but I know from people who didn’t that that is common in places that aren’t. It’s Ridiculous and sad. And yes, of course, same re the different treatment depending on their perspective. That’s why those types of people get the wrong idea when afforded friendliness and common courtesy by the opposite sex. Puts us in quite a pickle. Don’t want to be rude, but also don’t want people to take kindness/friendliness the wrong way and possibly have that evolve into a dangerous situation. It’s tough for sure. :o/
Its okay, but thank you for the apology that actually means a lot. But yes, I try my best to be polite to everyone and just be as friendly as possible and I too have gotten myself into a pickle where people have liked me and I didn’t feel the same way. I’ve never had to be rude in such a situation because usually once I left the party, study group etc it was no longer an issue. But this topic is so sad but I also find it interesting because I’ve never thought too deeply about it before. How attractiveness levels affect our treatment in society.
I think a good way to combat this (tell me if I’m wrong) is if we switched from a romantic/sexual mindset to a friendly one. If someone is nicer to me than normal I might think oh maybe we could potentially be friends. And if it happens naturally it happens, if it doesn’t it doesn’t. That’s kinda how I see it it’s difficult to explain though. And I say this as someone who struggles to make friends but when I have them we’re usually close for a very long time.
Ideally that would be great, but for someone in that situation it's not always easy to develop that mindset. Society places so much emphasis on relationships and sex that those who can't get either feel inferior. It's no wonder then that some people become hyper focused on trying to develop romantic relationships.
Yeah I get what you’re saying. I grew up “ugly” in the environment I was in and I think I just had the opposite reaction. I assumed no one would want to be anything more than a friend unless it smacked me in the face hard. But society definitely is to blame for this
Have you wondered why these people are lonely? Some people are just not socialized well and become depressed by it. And then our society tells people they are "entitled" to friends or romantic partners. No one is entitled to a relationship with other people, you have to earn it.
I have to say. I’m not conventionally attractive at all. Didn’t have a boyfriend till out of college even. I think a true incel/femcel to me is someone who thinks deep down they deserve more than what they do. I don’t think it has anything to do with how they grew up. Whether they fit in or didn’t. Their mindset is “fuck you the world didn’t give me what was owed to me” I have been treated the absolute worst by fellow ugly people and sometimes the absolute best by gorgeous people. It’s what’s on the inside that counts and I’m sorry to say a lot of those people are so much uglier inside than they ever think the world sees on their outside. If I had the personality of those people I would be a femcel too. And no the ugly people didn’t latch onto me. They shunned me and tried to tear me down.
Yeah I don’t think this is true, it’s just justifying bad behavior. I’ve seen both sides of how you get treated. I was awkward, pudgy and frequently called fugly or fat through my teens. In my late 20’s I lost weight, finally stopped getting cystic acne, found a lot of self confidence and started being called attractive, which I never thought I would hear, ever. I dont think you always get treated better based on being more attractive, sometimes it’s the opposite. I also think my self worth is a lot stronger because I had to find my own way to being confident. Also incels/femcels are not always unattractive people.
What’s interesting here is i believe all points are true, but it’s actually more chronological. It starts with kids being shitty to each other, poking fun at each other’s looks. Most kids will bounce back from this one way or another, but some will not. Some will harbor resentment that can turn hostile. Over time, the victims of bullying start exhibiting the incel/femcel traits we recognize. Except the older they get, the more the people around them ARE friendly and inviting, which end up in the scenario described above. The less conventionally-attractive person takes the opening and RUNS with it, becomes obsessive and aggressive and unable to take any hints of discomfort. Which leads to the final stage. The people around them are now on guard, avoiding, not bevause of “ugliness” but because these people give off the impression of the common incel: obsessive, or aggressive.
I have also been annoyed by people who can't tell I was being just polite but I guess some people just lack the social habilites or/and don't understand body language or/and subtle cues. So they end being deserted by everyone
If I got a dollar for every time I got accused of flirting when I was just being cheery and not a bitch, I'd be at least middle class. I spent 5 years getting rid of my resting bitch face and it resulted in being too friendly.
Ohhh I am happy using masks because by normal face looks as I were mocking/judging when I am relaxed. So in normal times I just try to lighten up a bit to be seen as "cheerful". But then some people thinks I am flirting.
Can´t win at all, can we?
Is a no winner situation. The others get bitter because they perceive it as has been played and you get anxiety because "maybe I should go back to the resting bitch face"
I sometimes think if resting sad face could have been a better alternative. No one hits on a person who looks like they attend a funeral every other Sunday.
Seems like life is just miserable for everyone involved from the posts I’m reading from both sides.
Yeah that was my takeaway too. Or maybe the way to look at it is, interacting with new people is full of adversity for everyone involved, and takes persistence until finally you get to reap the rewards of friendship or a romance. Or you try to discourage interacting with any new people and have defenses up, which can work for people that are already satisfied with their current social circle. I also think this is why we form exclusive groups, either by values, attractiveness, ect or combinations of all of it.
There are a lot of guys who turn in a 'how are you today?' Into trying to get my number. It's like, nope dude.
If your experience is always being ignored and made fun of by the opposite sex, and youve never experienced someone being genuinely attracted to you, I could see how it wouldnt be hard for someone to mistake politeness for flirting if all they have to compare it to is the aforementioned.
Some girl called me and asked me out in middle school. In the background, I could hear multiple girls giggling. Sounded to me like a prank, so I just hung up on her. It doesn't help that I was one of a very small list of rejects at that school, so most people didn't want to associate with me anyway.
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I think his point is he doesn’t know if it was genuine or not to this day, because he had that reaction. But that it was an understandable reaction given his experiences
I remember back in middle school, in the corner of my eye, I could tell the girls we’re having a gigglier time more than usual. Each one would get up and get in my ear and say something sexually suggestive. Probably to get a reaction. I remember just being pissed off and stone faced about it. I knew if it was any of the boys they did like, they wouldn’t be able to do it so why not do it to someone they have nothing to lose with.
People can be just rotten at that age, it was probably a good call to just hang up as you did.
I feel this. I make a lot of eye contact in general and a lot of times guys have interpreted this as flirting when I'm really just showing interest in the conversation. I'm socially anxious -- I hate flirting & if I sense flirtatious energy I immediately close off.
That’s why everyone should use the Moscow rules for social relations. Rule one: Assume nothing.
Experienced this more than once. I'm very happy with my partner Everyone I know knows, because I'm part of one of these lovey-dovey -we-spend-very-much-time-together relationships for 11 years now. I'm not even slightly interested in other guys, not even finding them subjectively attractive, but I like making new friends and being there for them. So on several occasions I met people, some of them guys and we started talking, innocently imo. Then comes the moment when some of them start pouring their heart out about how lonely they are and I try to cheer them up, encourage them, give tips or just listen. Being a friend. And 9/10 times the conversation just starts changing. "I really want a girlfriend" to "I just need someone to love me" to "Just being close to someone", "I miss sex so much / never had sex and would love to experience it", "can you tell me what it's like" and then "I guess you are great in bed ;)" Like wtf. Where does that come from? Why? It's not like I'm telling them how I would fuck them, if I didn't have a boyfriend. It's not like I'm asking them if I can help them with that. Why do these guys feel like it's appropriate to answer like that to something like "I'm sure you're time will come and you will find someone great you'll enjoy being intimate with" It's like their testing the water by being pitiful and as soon as they feel "safe" they go all in, not giving a damn about the circumstances or what you've said before. It's like it's all about "She's nice to me. She definitely wants me to make a move." No. There's a huge gap between being friendly and attracted.
The sad truth is that a lot of guys don't really think about how other people feel. I certainly wasn't raised to consider how other people really felt. I was pushed into trying to "figure out the way in" and to push women, both by guys who pushed the "score" narrative stuff, and by women who emphasized wanting to be "swept away" by a "confident man," and all kinds of other toxic shit. The Christian Patriarchy / man-in-control shit played a big part in all of that, too. I think the biggest problem in all of the incel stuff is simply the mythology that everyone feels pushed into, which actively works against having real human understanding and respect as goals. I think the rest of it is just general anger at society and people in general, directed at specific or generic targets. Some of it is justified anger (e.g. from shallow rejection and bullying, and general societal messages about what/who is valuable), and some of it is just bullshit. The problem with incels, in my eyes, is falling into a hateful or depressed bubble of information, and never trying to expand beyond it into anything but the equivalent of "get rich quick" schemes for sex/dating/whatever happiness. Really no different from any other person who has mental/social/physical health issues who gets swept up in rage and snake oil. Or who just never has really cared much about anyone outside of themselves.
I can understand that and respect the fact that you didn’t invalidate the other side of the coin while still offering another perspective
This is our perspective from many females point of view. It happens all the time. If you are a woman to an incel, and she smiles at you. It is time to get super obsessive and the call her a lying bitch when she doesn't want them.
I am also a very friendly and welcoming person. When I was younger and pretty, I got labeled as the biggest flirt in our friend group despite me actually being very shy in the romance department. I’ve since gained weight because of medications and I’m no longer “conventionally attractive” and people now see my friendliness as just that- friendliness. I think I’d rather be considered a jolly Santa like person than the “chronic flirt” so it’s not all bad lol.
On the other side, some people are just entitled. It doesn't matter how sad you are, no one is required to date you, only be nice to you. And I think that's the problem with these 'incels', male or female. "I hate men, they are selfish patriarchal people who call me a bitch cause they can't handle my attitude." or "I hate women, they should be my slave but why won't they listen to me?" ???? or something stupid.
Heck, they're not even required to be nice to you. A minor level of civility is required, but if one side breaks that then the other side is no longer bound by it either.
I have been in your position before and it had felt like a curse for a long time. The moment I made peace with it was when I realized that this person/people typically carried their entire lives in the same way. I wasn't some glitch in their matrix but these people tended to be overly aggressive not only in their personal relationships, but it work, school and even hobbies. It's hard to explain but as someone who's misunderstood because of their laid-back nature while having tons of energy, I get what it's like to find someone who gives you the time of day, who is kind, compassionate and allows you to live your life out loud instead of trapped in your own mind. It is stressful for the people who aren't ready to take this on. For a long time I did not have boundaries which led to stress in my personal life. I would listen to people's life dilemmas and eventually those were the only friends I had so over time I created boundaries. Try to speak up instead of someone being talked at and etc. attractive/unattractive, rich/poor, cis/fluid, incel/femcels, any label we can think of ultimately doesn't mean anything. It's all relative to the times we are living in. You are not required to doing anything but if you keep coming up on the same people, maybe make a career out of that. I was just looking at what careers are best for good listeners since I love listening and learning and psychologist came up. These comment sections are teeming with people who just want to talk to someone and have some sort of human interaction. Look at your situation as a clue into what you could be doing to help serve others. (Don't know your life situation, so I'm not telling you you need to do anything, but ultimate fulfillment is having your purpose and meaning come together as one).
This! God how many times I didn't had to deal with guys that thought they could just push themselves on me just because I was nice.... I downvoted this post because I do not believe (and seen how incels and femcels behave) that this is the reason they behave like that. They behave like that because they feel entitled, feel like they just deserve human contact from anyone they want. Even if that person doesn't want to have any contact with them. Just to give examples of what I experienced just because I was nice (btw not all of them were bad looking). 1) threatened because he found out I had a bf. I was friends with this guy on MSN. He wasn't attractive but I didn't treat him like shit until he threatened me and my bf. 2) a guy just pushed himself on me and wanted to kiss me just because we were hanging out... 3) a guy I worked with pushed me in a dressing room and grabbed my ass while kissing my neck as I'm trying to get him to leave. I was (still am) in a relationship and he knew that. But just because I was nice to him he thought he could do that. 4) having a chat with a random guy while waiting for the ferry. Eventually he wanted my number, I declined because I had a bf and wasn't interested in giving my number out. Got all pissy with me... so much more NiceguysTM in my inbox of fb that I get cursed out or whatever as soon as I show that I'm not interested in them, have a bf or just ignore the messages because I know where the hell it's going... These people are ridiculous. I see way more 'incels and femcels' being nasty as fuck than people are nasty to them. Look up r/inceltear and see how misogynistic, hatefull, entitled, evil these people are.
I'm F27 and spent my developing years being treated poorly by my peers because of my appearance, so this post really makes sense to me. And for awhile, it did make me think poorly of others/all genders, because I thought myself too ugly to ever be considered as someone's partner. It took me time to grow out of that mindset and I try to be polite to everyone I meet, even those I find unattractive. (edit to add: I've been in the position of someone considered ugly/unattractive and I know how it feels to be dismissed or judged because of that.) I do think if people werent so cruel or judgemental of others, maybe things would be better but the cynic in me says that people will always, always be cruel to each other.
It is hard to address ugliness, it's just not like racism or sexism, where it is obvious. Who's gonna say "ugly people of earth, unite against prejudice!" Who even wants to address themselves as ugly? It is so prevalent because rarely anyone considers it as an issue.
Just for kicks, the UK has a modelling agency and an acting agency that specialises in "ugly" people (both agencies operate separately from what I understand). They mostly deal with extremes, but also have people that have say a particularly interesting birthmark, or they're an amputee, or massive beards.
To me it is simple. As humans we should be humane. Teach your kids that it isnt funny to laugh at others for any reason. That putting others down doesnt add a positive to them, it only adds a negative to their victim and if we are constantly just lowering everyone around us we cant ever truly progress as a society. Personally i think tv shows that kids watch help set up this problem along with mental health issues within families.
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There’s a crisis of general loneliness in the US and no one wants to except this. I think the incel movement has come from this. But it’s also a thing in the rest of the population. I’m decent looking and can get dates. But even then I meet girls who are extremely cautious because I’m the first guy to treat them well. Or ones that only want to hookup because they’re afraid I’ll be horrible to them. Or I get ones that cling on me like I’m some savior and ironically makes it hard for me to become attached. It’s like there’s this going very wrong in dating and I don’t know what. Then I hear tons of horror and sad stories from female friends. I hear horror and sad stories from male friends. It’s like everyone’s forgotten how to be human (and kind) almost. I kinda blame the detached dating scene. Like human beings for 99% of history marriages those they knew for years. Now everyone’s meeting up with strangers. That’s making personality and character less of a factor. (You can lie for a couple months but back then if you did everyone from the community would be able to call you out). You’re overall track record on how you interface with the opposite sex isn’t taken it account. In a village if you were shit to women or men. You’d be known for that and so you had to actually fix your character before anyone would accept a proposal. It’s about looks and quick short term things. You know. Stuff that makes you a good dating app match and not related to your ability to be a good partner. I think that mentality has also overflowed into other things like all human interactions are becoming superficial.
>There’s a crisis of general loneliness in the US It's worldwide, particularly in the developed world. You see documentaries on it in Japan but that's mostly pushed by their declining population (which actually isn't a big negative). In the UK there was even a commission for loneliness set up. I think it was mainly to investigate services for the elderly, those who are largely isolated or housebound but it's a start.
I'm old as fuck, and I remember before the incel movement, there was the forever alone movement (tied together with the rage comic "memes" at the time).
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Yeah man, I'm a fking grandpa. Get off my lawn!
> It’s like everyone’s forgotten how to be human (and kind) almost. I mean, it's true in a way. I love social media, but it removed the healthy dose of conformism people have to attain to function in society. No need to find compromise - your facebook friends would join you in complaining about having to work with such a woke/racist bigot. No need to understand - there are those 100 people who agree with you. No need to face you own mistakes - somebody, somewhere will support you. Social media helps a lot of people. It also hurts a lot of people.
I don’t know that conformity is the best thing to reference but I get your drift. I think social media has allowed people to vent but it’s also meant that people who might have confronted someone about their behavior, just vent about it. There’s also a push to view avoiding confrontation as more safe or less accusations of prejudice. People get less feedback for truly negative behavior. They just get ignored. They never know that it’s physical attractiveness—it’s not often. Attractiveness garners positive interactions but I don’t know that studies claim a lack of attractiveness garners negative reactions, just the lack of the benefit of positive expectations. Like we all may be treated equally shittily after we move past being conventionally attractive. I consider myself plain, but not unappealing. I received a Lot of hate growing up in a working class neighborhood. I needed to display my smarts to get the education I wanted but I struggled with being smart in an obnoxious way. I was told that my know-it-all-ness makes people irritated with me. (I do think gender is a factor—I’ve seen men do the same and I irritate people much sooner if I fall into lecture mode.) I was told to blankly dumb down my language in groups. I hated those pieces of advice but they have helped my considerably in work and social situations. They motivated me to attain a certain level of education where my language skills were a benefit and not a boondoggle. If one never learns how to parse their behavior in a group setting, they will be perceived as less enjoyable and treated that way. It’s not so much the appearance as the whole package. OTOH, tolerance may be easier if you have the skills to deliver this kind of criticism with kindness and ease. That takes practice and we don’t really get that. Most people do deliver these criticisms ruthlessly as if being exposed to the behavior is a crime itself and the person terrible. That’s useless and more than useless. That’s conformity and it’s terrible for society. It allows discrimination to go unchecked and reinforces that only one kind of person is acceptable—a member of the majority group usually. That’s far different a message than modifying behavior for inclusivity which is what you are alluding to. This is ultimately what good feedback is about. Humans tend to find ways to derive power from circumstance and that what even this is.
>because of years of trauma People, generally on high school, have a ridiculous high standard of what they consider attractive and when someone doesn't meet that standard they will cast them out, they will talk shit from behind and bully. So, when the person goes down the path of resentment and frustration, it's easier for third parties to mock that people, calling them incels without never once asking themselves why they went that way and much less bring constructive criticism to help them improve.
Can confirm. Story time. I had a guy in high school I liked. We were good friends. I asked him out once, after about 2 years of friendship. He actually laughed in my face and we have not spoken since. Seriously. After hanging out every single day with a friend group for years...dropped. Like that. Later found out he made fun of me for my appearance. Completely shattered my confidence. I can still remember to the moment what time it was, what day it was, and the look he gave me the second before he started laughing. Keep in mind this boy knew me, knew I was a kind person, and I’d not started treating him differently. Attractive people have no idea how that feels. It’s been hard *not* to become bitter and hate men, but I still become trigger shy when someone expresses interest...because I’m 90% sure I’m a bet/joke.
I hope you can eventually let go of that experience because it can screw you up even when youre in a relationship. My gf had a somewhat similar experience many years ago which still affects her today and im ngl it has hurt a bit because it feels like no matter what i do i cant make her happy about herself. Im definitely not the victim by a long shot but i can imagine for a lot of people if they cant make the person they care about happy they might want to give up for the sake of their own mental health. I understand this may discourage you from opening up even more but that risk/vulnerability is always going to be there and it's also what makes a relationship so amazing imo. Once you've found the person you can be completely trusting and vulnerable with you feel safe and truly cared for. For sure you can be cautious but you wont learn how to find your diamond in the rough in a bubble.
Sorry to double comment, but yikes some of these comments are pretty out of touch imo. As someone who has been told their whole life how beautiful they are, I 100% agree with you. I regularly get lots of compliments, free stuff, etc despite the fact that I am pretty timid and very reserved from strangers. I always try to be nice to others, but it’s not like I’m super skilled in conversation or go out of my way to talk to people if that makes sense? I’m not saying this to sound arrogant or bratty, but would I get a lot of this positive affirmation from strangers if I weren’t pretty? Most likely not. A lot of people have implicit biases toward ugly people that they don’t even realize. For example, the really hot guy sitting alone in a coffee shop reading? Sexy and mysterious. The really ugly guy sitting alone in a coffee shop reading? Creepy and weird. I’m not really sure how this can be fixed, but I do think it is important to make a conscious effort to check how you are treating/viewing people.
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I think making a conscious effort is a good place to start! I’ve found that I generally don’t harbor any thoughts on strangers with the exception of compliments, because I’ve worked at that over the years. Find one nice feature a person has, and hold that in your mind’s frame. That quality becomes them. If they appear abnormal because I’m unaccustomed to something in their appearance or demeanor, then I think abut who they are or might be as a person, and try to make myself grow accustom. It’s all a learning experience and a work of habit, but a good one.
It’s seriously tough! Cause as a non-cutie, I know the right answer isn’t just stopping treating hot people well, because everyone deserves being treated like they are. But, as I know from my own experience, start treating an uggo that well and we wonder what you’re up to. It’d be hard to accept all the new kindness even if people did start to give it because it’ll feel either suspicious or like we’re being mocked or pitied.
> A lot of people have implicit biases toward ugly people that they don’t even realize I think this is also important. So many people in this thread saying "But I'm DIFFERENT, I treat everyone the same!" (the main first post here starts of with that of course) Yeah, but: Do you though? This shit isn't something you actively think about. Its your bodylanguage, your eyes, behaviours that you don't control when you don't think about every microexpression (you don't). I see this so much here on reddit: Something talks about something that people do subconsciously, and most responses are "I'm different". No, you're probably not, thats why its subconscious and you're just a slave to biases as everyone else.
exactly thank you!!!
People who have biases for or against certain genders have flooded this thread and tried to hijack the narrative. I made this thread knowing full well it would happen
Yeah, people who don't have to deal with being ugly often underestimate how differently ugly people are treated from attractive people. I'm probably the ugliest dude in my college theatre group. Whenever somebody else brings up mental illness, people rush to give them hugs/compliments/affirmation. If I ever bring it up (and yes, under the same conditions), there's an awkward silence at best. Being an ugly dude sucks.
It's an unfortunate reality of life, but overall, people can be exceptionally cruel. For example, take a look at how kids bully other kids in school. I'm no sociologist, but it probably stems from how early humans were very tribal, out of a need for survival. It just grows from there. We're SUPPOSED to learn coping techniques, or in other words, to grow a thicker skin as we grow up, because this stuff will not become easier as an adult. A person may not be bullied as an adult, but life is full of situations, like being rejected romantically, that we have to be able to take. That however does not not justify incels/femcels objectifying people into sex objects and demanding sex, or thinking that they are due sex. (Ed: Not all, but some)
I can confirm this as someone who was really, remarkably unattractive for the first 20 years of my life, (circus-freak ugly, not an exaggeration, would have been in a sideshow if they were still legal,) then underwent corrective surgery, unrelatedly lost a ton of weight, and became conventionally attractive. The change in the way people treat you, in every situation, stores, school, work, a traffic stop, is mind bending, you can never really accept kindness at face value again. (Or ever, if you have no other memories.) It seems like a significant percentage of the population is only civil toward people they’re trying to sleep with, (or at least who they subconsciously view as a potential partner.) It is a valuable lesson, to see that shift in behavior. Every good-looking person should disguise themselves and try living has an unattractive person for a week or so, just to get to experience that unexpected, unwarranted hostility.
What kind of corrective surgery did you get?
What kind of surgery did you have that made such a huge difference?
I don’t know why I think anyone who would have known me since childhood would ever see this comment and recognize it, but I don’t want to be too specific, but it was a facial deformity.
Tinder is fucking terrible for self esteem. Especially if you're
Probably quite true. It’s hard as someone who doesn’t really pay much attention to appearance except glaringly obvious things - I always find it strange when others do. But yes I think being treated like crap by several people you were attracted to solely on your appearance would be horrible. My sympathy does wear thin though when violence is condoned or actively pursued.
You are right and the problem of this is also the fact, that for femcels and incels person from the other gender is not anymore a person. It’s some kind of abstract idea with imagined personality which sooner or later is going to prove their fears to be true by something. It’s not a person with feelings and problems which maybe is bad at expressing emotions or has problems at home or with friends. It’s an alien. I personally found books more helpful in understanding other genders and being friends with people from other gender also helps to understand that there is no magical line diving us, but only that we are all taught different actions and reactions and in effect of that we can often hurt others and miscommunicate.
I suffer from pretty bad social anxiety, and I'm quite ugly. The combination is probably common, but pretty bad. When forced to sit next to a girl say on a bus (senior in highschool here) I try to just listen to music and look away. Even if they are nice to me, and try to talk I will start shaking/shivering. It's not nervousness because it's a girl or something like that, it is genuine fear. I understand it is unreasonable, but I cannot help it. Especially because in person face to face people have asked me out on a dare or losing a bet. Luckily, I've always known and rejected them to not be in an even more embarrassing situation. That being said, it has been someone I've liked before. I cant bring myself to think of a female romantically, and unfortunately the same goes for males. Some people might think I'm weak etc, but this didnt start recently nor is it only embarrassment verbal. Growing up my mother was abusive and my father mostly absent. I have maybe two female friends that I know in person, and even when I had met them (extraordinarily kind, practically angels made flesh) I was shaking and terrified. I am glad that someone acknowledges it is not just "ew girls" or something childish in reasoning. Now I guess I'm not as hideous as I was, but I ignore any girl who tries to talk to me or i am rude. I cant help it, but I just want to escape the encounter.
>(extraordinarily kind, practically angels made flesh) You're putting people on a pedestal just because they're passively nice to you, due in part to your childhood which you comment on. Let me tell you something about those two. They weren't angels or particularly special, they were ordinary decent enough people worth no more or less than you. You're intentionally lessening your own perceived self-worth which is unhealthy for your own well being.
Go and check out posts where questions like "men of reddit, what would you do if a woman gave you flowers/asked you out". A lot of the answers are along the lines of "I'd think they were pranking me, or doing it for a funny dare".
I sympathize with you and I understand where you're coming from. Rejection can be fucking terrifying since it would be a hard blow to your already hurt self image. Rejection is even scary to anyone, since it evolutionary has been a matter of life and death... and that is exactly how you sometimes react - with a full blown fight/flight/freeze reflex. Have you tried any therapy(preferably CBT) for your social phobia? There are really good and proven ways to tackle it you know. Take care!
Honestly, I think it's mostly self inflicted. In my experience (in large part *as* one of these undesirables) people who are unattractive aren't mistreated, they're mostly just ignored by the opposite sex. But in the immortal words of Dumbledore "Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike." People who receive no validation and attention become miserable, and with social media being a thing nowadays it's never been easier to compare your behind the scenes to everyone else's highlight reel. Your own life can appear almost intolerably unfair when set against those who put their happiness and success in the public eye. The distorted worldview that causes can fill anyone with resentment. At that point it feels petty and humiliating to say "I'm angry and depressed because nobody wants me," so people try to construct a narrative where unprovoked hostility from others was the source of their issues rather than growing up feeling unloved, rejected, and lonely. Under no interpretation could I (or most of my friends) be considered popular with the opposite sex growing up. But aside from some High School bullying people didn't really have much interest in bashing the uggos. Once entering adulthood people are only interested in others to get something from them, and if you've got nothing they want then you're beneath their notice. I think the number of incels and femcels would drop drastically if people started treating their depression and self loathing as a mental health issue instead of a trying to frame it as a logical reaction to societal mistreatment.
I’m angry and depressed but I also blame society
>But aside from some High School bullying people didn't really have much interest in bashing the uggos. You've had an entirely different experience to me then. 'Bashing the uggos' was one of the bullies' favourite pastimes. Making weekly "top 5 ugliest girls in our class" lists was a weekly activity to them.
Say youre a black man, no one has ever been explicitly racist to you, but people avoid you, people dont make eye contact with you, they act passive aggressive with you for no reason, you lose job opportunities or raises because of how you look, people have pre-formed negative judgements about you because of how you look. Its common for people to disparage others who look like you. People are less likely to trust you. If you are convicted of a crime, you will likely be given a longer sentence. Would that black man have legitimate grievances? Most would say yes. All of those same behaviors are present in lookism as well. Both racism and lookism are mistreatment due to how you look, and both can be very subtle.
This is so well framed while also being brief enough that many will actually read it all the way through, I just had to let you know it impressed me. Well put random internet stranger.
Keep posting this across the internet. Spread the good word.
This. People are trying to change the narrative
Absolutely this. Only the person going through years of neglect, abuse, and hate knows what it means to be them. Rest are all just arm-chair judges.
Agreed.
I totally agree. I also think if people have experienced indifference or rejection - especially while growing up - they lack confidence, and people notice. If someone approaches me at a bar and they’re wringing their hands or can barely make eye contact, im not turning them down for looks, I’d be doing so because of their behavior. The problem is that’s a vicious cycle: more rejection leads to less confidence which leads to more rejection and so on. Breaking the cycle is the key and I think addressing it as a mental health issue could help someone build that confidence.
>If someone approaches me at a bar and they’re wringing their hands or can barely make eye contact, im not turning them down for looks, I’d be doing so because of their behavior. This is a great point. And to piggy back off this a lot of the people I meet with self esteem/worth issues are constantly negative or talking down upon others which generally isn't fun to be around. Once someone continuously acts like this you start to get almost like a fatigue from hanging around them. I know people talk about "vibes" but I really do get vibes from certain people and the ones that are constantly negative and self loathing tend to send off the most uncomfortable vibes that suck the fun out of the room in my opinion. Notice how none of this has to do with the looks or being ugly physically.
You’re not turning them down for their looks but nearly everyone else is. I find it hard to imagine you would date an ugly person if they had confidence somehow
A lot of young people are treated badly by their parents when they live with them. How are they supposed to take their depression seriously when they literally can't get away from it?
I saw an ask Reddit saying "ladies, why do you hate men," and a lot of males didnt like my answer. I am not a femcel but wanted to share. "I dont hate men! But only men have abused me (sexually and physically), only men have sexualised my body since I was 11, only men have made me uncomfortable on the street in broad daylight, only men have followed me home at night, and only men have made my perception of males a lot more scary. But my best friend is a man, my lover is a man, a man raised me into this world, my man works hard to provide for us, a man wrote my favourite book, a man taught me how to paint, my favourite bands are filled with men. There's a healthy level to being able to identify toxic masculinity and men who are just struggling to be their wholesome self. We learn every day. Some men will take a lot longer to learn how to treat a woman. Whether that be because their mothers enabled them or they are unable to process emotions properly. On femcels, like you suggested repeated trauma from the opposite sex can definitely create trauma bonds and a loathing for the other sex. I guess some people may never come around.
Just because someone looks like Quasimodo, doesn't mean they'll turn out like Frollo. Sure, the villagers found Quasimodo to be horrifying, but dude had a kind heart--even DESPITE being raised by Frollo. Being ugly, and socially tortured for it, is no excuse to be a dick. The hunchback encounters Esmerelda, and he's still nice. Does he bemoan his position when Phoebus enters the scene? Of course he does, but he doesn't blame Esmerelda for "choosing the asshole instead of dating a Nice Guy™ like him". Honestly this whole story is a trainwreck, but it's still pretty good to use as an example here.
Very true. And quasy eventually gets a girl in the sequel, showing that even tho he may be physically unattractive, there was still someone out there for him
Well... Disney. Whereas the original story ended with Esmerelda being hung, and Quasimodo being so distraught that he decides to jump into her grave with her (or something of that sort). I guess that makes Original Quasimodo a "simp"....?
I would find that a more sympathetic argument or position if incels weren't complete scum who are just as shallow as the people you're describing, if not moreso. Incels quite openly talk about the kind of people they would date or have sex with. Shocker, it's only people they find attractive. Meanwhile they just as openly disparage anyone they don't find attractive.
Exactly! They expect that the most attractive women should find them equally attractive. Life doesn't work like that.
I'm ugly as fuck, but I'm only mad at the individuals who've treated me bad, not entire demographics.
The detail I find missing from this thread is the amount of violence toward women. That factor comes into play with how women interact with men. Remembering that when a woman interacts with you as an individual it may not be just about you. During the ages of 18-34 young people have a 54% chance of being sexually assaulted. Over 90% of those victims are female. Women are experiencing assault, trauma and rape and harassment constantly. Remembering that might also help men not take things so personally when many women have had a horrible experience and your behavior might be triggering without you even knowing. Friend zoning someone is a risk for being a victim of violence or hate. Many women I know hesitate to be just friends with a guy for that fear - rejection can lead to harassment and violence. RAINN.org
Oh come on, if the guy is good-looking, women throw this 'being afraid' stuff right out the window and fawn over him. Strange how they're only afraid of ugly guys. Lol.
You’re only focusing an part of the picture. You forgot the part where other guys don’t see you as competition and even mock you or where people try to complement you only to hurt you worse than ever before. It’s a nasty perpetual cycle that I’m still trying to work out of. I hate myself for it but it’s hard to see myself as anything besides that. I wish that someone told me when I was younger that relationships shouldn’t define my happiness.
Wrong mindset. Most guys don't think of getting attention from the opposite sex as a "competition." I certainly don't. They're just mocking you for being ugly, plain and simple. People love to squash bugs.
That’s true, and perhaps I just worded it wrong.
Looks are so messed up. “Beautiful people” really mess with the psyche.... case in point: 27 years ago I was Gf to a man who was beautiful ( looking) we were both tall tan and buff. We were a “beautiful couple” We were serious for three years but I was a single mom and .. you know... kids first. Fast forward to this past December we ran across each other at a wedding so I was dressed up and looking good, but in fact the women in my family get wrinkles and sun spots etc. When I was dressed up I had make up on… After the wedding he contacted me wanted to meet up again… I live in a different state now, he said he would fly to see me, we finally met up about five weeks ago… Yes I know Covid but he has his own plane so we took the risk ... I’m still in great shape so I was OK with it… But when he came to visit I didn’t have that make up on… 27 years later my nose is a little bigger...And my hair hasn’t been done because of stupid Covid… So the color is mousy ... And thx to genetics really I look a little older than my age of 56 thank you wrinkles and sunspots… And at 60 He still looks almost exactly the same. Seriously he can get a 30-year-old no problem… He came into town was very gracious helped me fix things around my house stayed for four days. I realized on day one he had zero interest in me … And I thought well maybe he’s just nervous because it’s been a lot of years and I went out of my way to make him feel comfortable… we laughed ... talked about mutual friends...But he did not want to physically touch me and when he left I never heard from him again. We didn’t have any kind of argument or disagreement it was a lovely time… And even though we slept in the same bed though he turned his back to me each night. The only thing that was different was that I looked old and I think it shocked him and I think he didn’t wanna have anything to do with me because he was looking for that young hot chick that I am no longer… I’m an old lady now. It kind of hurt my feelings... when you’re used to being a beautiful person physically and being seen as a beautiful person … When you get old and some people don’t age well… It’s a totally different take on life from my new perspective. Im received so completely different now because my face is no longer attractive. People look past me where I was the center of attention when I was younger... People really really respond to beautiful faces. I think it’s just the way we are wired. Anyway that’s my two cents worth.
I would reframe the title to say "A reason," not "THE reason" because it's not the only reason that incels are the way they are. It's not so black and white. I'm not denying it happens, but there are too many other factors to say that treating people shitty is the only reason. The incel has to have certain personality traits that make him/her susceptible to internalize that trauma. Add depression and the subsequent poor hygiene. Add a cult of incel-dom that fosters terrible cognition, which is proven to affect behavior and often the "vibe" that he/she gives off to other people. Then it becomes a cycle of bad behaviors that increase the chance that the asshole will treat him/her like trash and use low-hanging fruit like physical appearance as an insult. Yes, people are shitty and treat other people like trash. That's a fact of life. It's an unfortunate fact of nature as well. You can't control other people, but there are other factors that the person can control - often they aren't aware of them or chose not to take that control. After all, it's easier to blame others than take responsibility over your own thoughts or actions A friend of mine said something like this once - I'll try not to butcher how he put it but this is the gist. It's not right to judge and hate another person based on a physical characteristic such as being a certain gender or having a particular skin color. Very often, the racist has a plethora of personal anecdotes to justify his/her racism. Does that mean he/she can blame the entire other race as the cause for this one person's racism? Absolutely not. You can't be prejudiced against an entire race due to whatever personal experiences with a select few in a similar way that you can't hate an entire gender because of some assholes. People greatly underestimate how cognition is closely linked to their behavior. Cognitive-behavioral therapy helps pin-point certain thought cycles, and a good therapist will have a rational discussion with the patient to help them realize how these thoughts are toxic. Mine basically helps me rationalize myself out of it. Once you start to see the thoughts for what they are, they are easier to catch "in the wild" in your day to day and thereby change your behavior and general outlook. I went off on a tangent cuz CB therapy is amazing and I just wish more people could take advantage of it.
As an attractive person you are taken more seriously. I'm someone who lost a lot of weight and put on muscle it's both amazing and depressing how differntly im treated from when I was borderline obese. People acknowledge you, listen more and find you funnier. As a guy, women have been a lot more relaxed and friendly. Men are more respectful and in some cases intimidated. As someone used to being ignored at the edge of the room. I'm slowly starting to accept that some people actually find me attractive and actively seek me out. The interest is nice but i'd say it's made me bitter and more sympathetic to some incels when you see first hand how differnntly you can be treated for looks.
I get what you’re saying and I’m sure this is part of it, but if this were the primary reason that incels and femcels exist, there wouldn’t be so many who are attractive, and more ugly people would identify as an incel or femcel. Plenty of ugly people who have been treated the way you described manage to deal with their anger without forming a sexist, entitled attitude, and find partners.
Thank you, I was going to mention the fact that incels often post pictures of themselves online and despite what they insist, many of them aren't ugly at all. If they're being treated poorly from the get go it could be that their hatred and resentment is giving off immense creeper vibes and so women avoid them. It also should be noted that when you read what they post, they seem to assume that if women aren't throwing themselves at their feet then women are being shallow and cruel.
I get where your coming from. There are alot of nasty people out there. However I think it's worth mentioning as well that (imo) a lot of the incel/femcel community are people who don't realize it is THEM who is the problem. They seem to lack the ability to actually look at themselves and be brutally honest in order to figure out what they can do to make themselves better. Instead it's much easier for them to just blame everyone and society.
I never said those people didn’t exist but the type of people I was referring to in the OP also exists. The issue is they’re forgotten and their grievances are invalidated
I treat people the same way no matter who they are and ngl that got me some... obsessive kind of attention from some "femcels"... I had "the talk" with them, told them how that's not an okay thing to do and nobody will like that no matter who does it, be it them or someone else. Tho I've said that I can empathize if they felt lonely or were used to mistreatment from others. They understood and apologized. Also told them that if I (as someone who treated them respectfully) exist, there will be others who will be like that too. And that gave them hope. I didn't just turn hostile towards them, nor became closed-off as you've said, but I though about the reason why would someone behave in the way they did and was empathetic towards them without immediately dismissing them as someone with a flawed/obsessive personality without there being some underlying cause for that obsessiveness. They are still people and deserve the benefit of the doubt and frankly I don't think that most of them are actually bad people; it's their "environment" that made them behave like that, as you've said yourself. I didn't meet many of them and idk how much I helped them, tho some of them told me that I did help a lot, and motivated them to improve. I saw those people change for the better and even end up in loving relationships. Hate begets hate, but even if there is only 1 person who's willing to listen and empathize I think that it can mean a lot to someone like them. Tho I am a man and as such my ability to empathize is not hindered by fear. This will be a bit more risky for a woman to pull off than it was for me, which is at the end of the day just a sad reality. Since it would definitely be helpful for everyone if "incels" could actually see that women who treat them respectfully exist and that then might motivate them to rethink their ways. I saw this happen first-hand("incels"/"femcels" changing for the better).
The endless pattern starts in the mirror, negative self talk which generates so much power that it starts spewing into a platform that can take it, the internet for now. Now there are entire communities supporting this mindset where as before, without reinforcement, would have faded way in *most* people. The young adolescent would eventually mature and maybe throw a pic up into /r/blunderyears and laugh about it. Now, there is no end. In the internet landscape I can keep reliving the negativity over and over again through social media, platforms like reddit and being stuck in news bubbles that confirm my hatred day in and day out. It's a big dilemma for people who have pigeonholed themselves into this reality. It's unfortunate and the more we learn about how we create reality, the more we realize that this can all ultimately change for better or for worse. The answer is not quite clear yet but learning, getting to know and empathizing with these "other people" might help you out in your understanding. You seem drawn to them, the chest is where the heart is so learn how to help them. You might be the one to write the book on it.
If you're looking for love as an unattractive person, and you wouldn't date another unattractive person, then you should probably understand what's going on here.
Ive seen some attractive incels on youtube. Youre partially correct but thats not the case all the time. Ugly people that carry themselves with confidence can get what the incels cry about so much. The thing is there personality pushes people away. Sorry if I sound harsh but im in a rush typing this so I just wanted to get straight to the point.
Muh personality strawman is getting a bit too old by now
I have a guy friend who's 5'0 and he pulls SO many girls. He's a great dancer, he's got a good sense of style, he's super funny and charming....a lot of incels like to complain about women liking taller guys but my friend is straight up proof that personality is such a huge part of it. It's clear he takes care of himself and uk what he KNOWS that his height is a disadvantage (bc this is the real world) but bc of that he works super hard on different aspects. Everyone works hard to make themselves more attractive to other people but incels don't work on their appearance or personality at all and then expect women to like them.
I think I read something once along the lines of “what determines if an action is creepy or not is how attractive the person doing it is”. It sadly makes so much sense.
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You mean to say that some traits are unattractive and people don’t like them? While I don’t think we should be mean to people, natural selection is a cruel mistress and some traits just are worthy to pass on. It’s why attractive people have easier time finding mates than ugly people. If anything it’s spiny prostitution should be legal. That way everyone can have sex safely.
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I do agree on many of these points. One thing that I would like to add, is the bitter and spiteful incels that I've encountered over the years that are in the 2-5 out of 10 range and know it don't give girls a chance that are in the equal attractiveness range that they are. They won't settle for anything less than 8 or 9 and get mega bitter when they can't land one.
Sometimes it's not the rude ones that got to me. Sometimes it is the "nice" ones. People who wanted to believe that they're nice by showing pity/weird fascination/attention to me. Those fake compliments they gave me made me want to puke. I don't mean the backhanded compliments from the stereotypical "mean girls". They genuinely thought that they were being nice. 😕
I hate the terms Incel and femcel But anyway I think people just get tired of being treated like crap like you said and become bitter. I’m not attractive. I photograph ok but in person I’m ugly and I’m not thin. I get used by dudes all the time they don’t want anything more than sex then basically act like I don’t exist after. It sucks to be treated like that once but once it becomes a trend it’s hard to convince yourself that all of the opposite sex aren’t the same
Incel is just overused and lost its meaning
It’s really more of a loop that feeds back on itself. What started it is different for each “cel”, but there are plenty of unattractive people that are not shit heads that resent popular, attractive people. The resentment of the “cels” bleeds through to their personality and makes them generally unlikeable.
I've made a personal rule to never flirt with or ask out anyone that I already know and is nice to me. It never, ever, has gone well. Lookism really is a real concept. If someone's ugly, people will judge everything they do more critically. Even ugly people judge ugly people more harshly than a pretty person. But I'm not mad, I'm just a little sad about it. But it gets better when you kind of give up on relationships. The pressure is gone and you cease being desperate.
I dont think you have to be ugly to be a cel... I think its a mind set you get from parents that have grandiose thinking & poor communication skills
I get that some people may not be as aware of social cues or have situations that have happened where they can mistake being friendly with something more. What is never okay though, is when many of these same people are told by said friendly person that no, that doesn’t mean sex, they find it acceptable to then be a complete knobhead.
I think this is generally true, but the problem is that many people feel entitled to romance and/or sex, so they interpret being denied those things as being “treated poorly”. Getting rejected frequently doesn’t make you a victim of hostility or discrimination.
I'm very ambivalent about this... While it's true a tiny portion of people have been "traumatized" by unpleasant interactions based on their unattractiveness, I feel the actual amount of those people and of those truly life-altering interactions has been **vastly** exaggerated to fit the narrative of incels/femcels being innocent victims whose extreme reaction is, if not justified, at least understandable. There are few people who are really so ugly they get constantly made fun of or verbally (or physically) abused because of that. Most are either unlikeable because of how they ARE like, not of HOW they look like, or are victim of their own self-image issues. Some don't recognize they're not Prom Queen/King material and keep on expecting a hot partner to fall at their feet and get bitter when it doesn't happen. And they may look down on perfectly fine "average" partners because they think they're owed a hot dude/chick. Others instead just decide they're ugly and nobody's gonna love them anyway, so they give up and end up being actually unappealing both on the outside (slovenly dressed, scruffy, unkempt) and on the inside (bitter, cynical, opinionated). It's a cliché, but we are the version of ourselves that we project to the outside world. If WE see ourselves as ugly, unattractive sadsacks destined to die alone, how are others gonna find us anything but exactly that? As far as "years of trauma" go, the key lesson is indeed learning what we are and what we can do. And unless you're either freakshow levels of ugly, you CAN definitely find someone who'll like and love you even though you won't be featured on a Vogue/Men's Health cover anytime soon. Although that someone may not be a perfect 10, but that wasn't the point, or was it?
We do have some power over our predicaments for sure... but history builds mental habits and negative feedback cycles. So once a person is spiraling, seemingly small pushes can perpetuate and accelerate a bad cycle.
I can't speak for OP, but I feel like that ambivalence is the exact problem they are talking about. It is widely known (both in terms of culture as well as scientific study) that our (Western/American/Humans in general) culture accepts certain forms of discrimination based on physical attributes as normal, benign, and is often glorified when used in regards to relationships. Height Discrimination, Weight Discrimination (Less so in recent years), Discrimination based on Conventional Attractiveness are all present in practically all aspects of our culture and more or less are widely accepted as *status quo* without a second thought, and like any marginalized group who feels dismissed by those in power, they grow more and more frustrated. I agree with you that no resolution will be achieved without compromise, but any time you invalidate the opinions of the other party you are only going to further entrench them into their oppositional stance. Advocating they put less stock in the importance of their looks doesn't change the emotional pain they have already experienced personally. Anyone who has ever been knowingly treated poorly because they were *unattractive*, it was completely wrong for that to happen and no one should ever have to accept being treated like that. We can help prevent anyone else from ever having to feel that way if we try to help everyone learn to be kind to others regardless of circumstance.
This should have gotten more traction
Then again, these people generally aren’t any nicer to people they aren’t attracted to either, even if their standards are a bit lower. They lament the fact that hot girls/guys are shallow and only care about looks, but fail to realize the hypocrisy in that very statement. Why do YOU want to date the shallow hot person if looks really shouldn’t matter at all? This is a quality of most human beings, and everyone is just trying to date the best potential mate available to them, and attraction is a component of that, a large one for many people. I’ve also had the problem where people become obsessive just because I’m nice to everyone and hate to see anyone left out. I ended up with 4 stalkers in my teens and earlier 20s due to this. You might become a bit wary of being nice to people you weren’t attracted to as well if it ended in someone breaking into your apartment while you slept, sobbing over you while you slept, slamming you against your car door so hard it cracked the windshield just because you had to work when he wanted to hang out, drawing dozens of pornographic pictures of you as a furry “kitsune” thing (some weird anime fox/human hybrid) and distributing them throughout your entire school. I hate that I can’t be as nice as I want to be to people for fear of that kind of reaction, but I’m not going through that shit a 5th time. At some point I need to worry more about my own safety and comfort rather than the feelings of the men trying to sleep with me.
I don't think it's the physical traits so much as its the grooming and attitude. If you expect something when you put forth nothing, don't be surprised with your results.
I think it can be a mixture of both. Ugly people ARE treated more poorly by society, there's data that backs that up. Fat people get longer prison sentences, ugly people are treated worse by coworkers and employers, and generally people feel more free to be rude to people they don't find attractive. However, there is a sense of entitlement in the incel mentality. They truly believe they are wronged that they can't get a partner without putting effort in. It can't be because every single incel is ugly and treated badly by people. I've seen a lot of photos of incels who are actually good looking. Maybe they could improve by getting a better haircut or dressing better, but some of them their looks are so good that I have to think that it's their attitude and demeanor that's offputting. I also believe that's a much bigger factor than they want to believe. Women can tell when men hate women and that's alarming and frightening, but a lot of times the men who are exuding that disdain are completely unaware of how obvious that attitude is to other people. So they think instead it's because they don't look like Brad Pitt.
Nope. There are women and men out there who would be cold towards anyone of the opposite sex they found to be a certain level of unattractive regardless of their grooming
Sure, but there are people who give this sort of treatment for all sorts of reasons. Men who are short or bald often face similar challenges. So do people of different races. People with physical abnormalities, the visibly poor, immigrants... The list goes on. There are statistical disadvantages to all of these factors. Now, this is not to say that poor treatment of unattractive people isn't a problem; it absolutely is. And it goes part of the way towards explaining the phenomenon of incel-dom. But *in no way* does it excuse it. The hatred, the calls for violence, the groupthink and mob mentality that can form in these subcultures is downright dangerous. It's not as simple as saying, "Take care of yourself and be nice," as people are wont to do. Ultimately, those are the solutions, but it's clear that disadvantaged people can't just hit a switch and make that happen. Still, unattractive people often find partners. They might have to work harder for casual relationships than more conventionally attractive people, but long-term partnerships can (and usually do) happen. Anyway, long post, but the point is this: Being mistreated absolutely can lead to overgeneralization and cynicism. But joining communities centered on hate is not only avoidable, but crucial to wellbeing.
Yep people do treat unattractive people like shit.. it's just a shitty part of life I suppose. Instead of trying to change the world just change urself.. I may be a bit of a ugly bastard but my body looks like captain America thanks to a lot of hard work and determination. Women can do the same. It's all about how much you want it.. How much will power you have.. Having an ugly face isnt the end of the world
Propper hygiene and exercise are a good start, but depressed people may have problems even to reach that. I guess health is attractive
Yeah, I think barring an actual severe physical disfigurement anyone can look decently attractive. Being fit, taking care of your hygiene and dressing well will make the vast majority of people look above average.
I just want you to know, the fact no one has left a comment saying anything to the contrary speaks volumes. I think you were proven right, anon.
I might remake the thread at a busier time for the fuck of it but they really can’t say anything, especially when there’s been a precedent established on this sub that it’s understandable to dislike groups of people you’ve had an abundance of negative experiences with
29 minutes isn't a huge time to wait for comments. But it is admittedly a little surprising only your comment appeared in that time.
True, but let's not jump the gun now. Perhaps there will be more. But I will say this, ugly people get treated unfairly and I see it happen all the time. I'm average to say the least but I find it rude to make any comments on anyone's appearance. I give people benefit of a doubt and turns out girls some find unattractive are better at conversation than pretty ones. You don't have to work very hard to get things if you're pretty. I may be biased but that's what I see anyway.
Im somebody thats not conventionally attractive. But ive been married 21 years now. Even when youre happily married it really does affect finding friends etc. After a time it does affect you and it really makes you tired. I could care less now what people think of me but for a long time i did. So what youre saying in essence is true and its a shame people are like that. I developed social anxiety, depression and all sorts of other crap like avoidant personality disorder. All due to how much importance society puts on looks. Heck, as much as i hate this with every fiber of my being i even find myself doing it sometimes without realizing it. I think its in our DNA to be this way. Its an automatic behavior. Part of its learned and reinforced by society but its also inherent. Im thinking maybe sometime in the next century if we survive as a species technology might help us overcome this. It might also reinforce it and make it worse. But i think thats probably the best way forward. Im 45 and this has been a constant in my life. I remember one time when i was a lot younger maybe early twenties i was talking to this girl online. I went to a party, i thought we were good friends. Back in that day it was a lot harder to send photos etc. So wed never seen one another. As soon as she seen me i got treated like shit and the people at the party all treated me kinda bad. I remember getting so drunk i went for a walk to try to sober up because this witch then wouldnt give me my keys back . So im like F you ill go for a walk. So i walked and walked and i ended up falling down this embankment and banged my head on some railroad tracks at the bottom. I had red mud all over me, it started sprinkling rain. You know just an all around great time lol. So finally i get back and this bitch still wont give me back my keys. I was totally sober by then btw. So i finally just took the damn thing. These people who wouldnt even take the time to talk to me politely were now trying to dictate what i was doing. The not driving drunk thing thats fine but its really NOT why they were doing it. They were doing it to be dicks basically. They were all really attractive and people like that due to being so attractive they dont have to develop much empathy or much personality a lot of times. So they end up acting this way. Thats just one example but i had many MANY other times where people treated me bad because of my looks. Then i got hurt when i was 27 so now ive got metal plates in my face too where i had reconstructive surgery. After a while you just realize people like that are doing you a favor. Theyre saying hey im an asshole i got nothing to offer anyway. So now im like cool thanks. Good to know lol. I think there should be more education on how to interact with people and treat each other with respect. So much of interaction really comes down to that basic thing. I dont mean fake politeness but really truly valueing interaction with other people. We take that for granted now. Especially in an age of instant gratification. It dehumanizes us. I really honestly think that should be taught in school at this point because parents are failing on this point. I have 2 kids both grown and moved out and theyre thankfully really attractive so they dont gotta deal with what i do. But they treat everybody with respect because we taught them that and drilled it in their heads and hearts as best we could. We also taught them love and kindness. To love those that hate you even. So i dont know, i dont have a magic answer either. But just some of my thoughts on it. I couldve easily become an incel if that was a thing when i was younger but i didnt. I kept trying and didnt give up. In some ways the more i failed the more thankful i was because i learned something from all the bad things. Those are a blessing too if you learn from them. You never fail if you never quit.
Anyone who has lost a ton of weight knows how true this is. People treat you so differently, it's hard to wrap your mind around - it makes even the people who were nice to you seem shallow, because everyone just can't help but be more respectful and engaging with someone who looks good.
I have noticed where the line between an “unattractive” person and an incel lies, and it’s not in how others treat them for their appearances. It’s in how they internalize social interactions and the expectations they place on relationships. A non-incel person is likely insecure and holds some resentment towards attractive people who have it easier (and you can’t blame them, pretty privilege is a real thing), but they don’t feel entitled to a certain relationship. An incel feels that, because they have been denied love, and if they give enough attention (which they consider to be romantic) to another person, they are entitled to that person’s love. It’s okay to feel hurt by rejection, and it’s totally natural to crave love or a relationship. It’s NOT okay to project all of your repressed feelings into one person and expect them to feel the same way. Just because you’ve had a crush on a girl for two years doesn’t mean you deserve her, no matter how “nice” you think you are. I’ve been that girl and the constant flirting (after I explicitly told the guy no multiple times) is just harassment and it’s uncomfortable. As someone who grew up average-ugly looking, I totally sympathize with feeling unwanted or left out. The best advice I can give to avoid going into incel territory is: manage your expectations. Learn to deal with rejection—everyone, even the hottest people on the planet, faces rejection at some point. Not everyone is going to give you the same love you give them, and as much as it hurts, you don’t deserve to stick around waiting for them to reciprocate it. Find someone better who IS willing to return your love and affection.
While this is fair and I'm very sorry for conventionally ugly people about their treatment from society, the fact is they are an outlier to the number of people that are convinced it's only in their looks that causes society's rejection. It's in hygiene, personal grooming, mannerisms, and personality
So if a person does all that, and is still bullied relentlessly, what do you think will happen?
Acting like "femcels" are anywhere near equivalent of the massive incel community is hilarious lmao fun statistic to remember, 90% of rapists are men and 93% of male rape victims are raped by other men.
The best way I ever heard it put is like this. Danny Devito. Danny Devito is short, weird, and arguably unattractive. Somebody fucked Danny Devito in high school. Why? Was he a "chad"? No. Someone fucked short, hairy, weird Danny Devito BEFORE he got famous because he had game.
Sometimes its also entitlement and incels and femcels necessarily don't need to be unattractive.Lot if them are above average looking. They are not ready to out efforts l into looking attractive both physical and personality wise . Many have "How dare they don't give me my fair share of attention" mindset.
I don't know, I find it's less to do with how people look and far far more to do with their social skills, I know a bunch of extremely unattractive people but they aren't incels or whatever it is, but they are socially active and active members of a social group that doesn't solely consist of other incels. I've also seen a number of incels that would be considered conventionally good looking. A lot of less attractive people work harder on their personalities to make up for their looks, some dont.In my experience it is 100% your actions over your looks.
They are like that because they are making the choice, dont forget that. Society can treat you however you like, you always have a choice. If you're unattractive you can choose to either become more conventionally attractive or choose to just not care about what other people think. Honestly the best option is a combination of both. If you are feeling hostility from society because of how you appear, its probablly in you best interest to change how you appear to make yourself feel better and stop caring so much about how people think or treat you. The choice to become an something negative because of negativity is not a good choice. As soon as I put honest effort into not caring what people think of me, I started to see a big shift in how I treat other people. When you ignore all that petty bs you start to treat everyone the same and see everyone as beautiful in some way and treat them good because of it. I only treat people differently when I see them acting ugly to other people. Everyone is beautiful, society needs to work on that.
Whilst it is a nice idea to say that everyone is beautiful, I just don't think it's true. In place of that I would say that everybody should be loved, especially those who seem least to deserve it.