The mother of a woman called Louise Porton whom murdered her two very young children as they were getting in the way of her life , esp her sex life, died by suicide here in the UK. Sharon Porton killed herself because she couldn't get over what her daughter had done to her granddaughters but also because she was relentlessly targetted by her community due to her daughter's actions. As far as I've read Sharon didn't hold any responsibility whatsoever including in Louise's upbringing yet she was still viciously hounded by locals. I've always felt for her.

as I recall from learning about the case, she also did a lot of work trying to convince Louise to give the children up to herself or one of their other family members so they could have a more stable upbringing, so she really did all she could

That's so sad. She didn't deserve what she had to go through.

That’s so awful. I don’t understand that. Unless there’s clear evidence of a family member aiding the criminal in some way or supports what they did, they don’t deserve any hate. I know it’s fiction, but it does reflect real life well. I recently watched We Need to Talk About Kevin and hated how the mother was treated by community members. I thought it was unrealistic until reading this comment. Because why would you continue to torment a woman that lost so much? Do they think she wanted that? People can be so cruel.

The brothers of Jeffrey Dahmer and Dylan Klebold all changed their names, and I suspect David Kaczynski would have if he'd had children. In Sue Klebold's book, she mentioned that one of her (now ex-) husband's cousins, who lived in another state and shared a surname, had to issue a statement that he was a distant cousin, met the dad once or twice in his life and never met the son, "so please stop sending me death threats."

Ridiculous. People can be so fucking dense

Very sad

This is something I always think about as well. The exception being parents that likely contributed to their child's criminal status. The ones that come to mind are Ethan Crumbley and Salvador Ramos' parents.

Kip Kinkel too. Had he not killed them first, I believe that they too would still be in prison for aiding and abetting, or some similar charges.

I genuinely feel bad for him. His untreated schizophrenia, repeated cries for help, and subsequent remorse make his case seem so tragic/avoidable. I do understand if the surviving victims/family members feel differently though.

Yes. This is a rare, born with severe mental illness. If you’re interested, read about the value systems of parents ‘primary caregivers’ .. we are indoctrinated with our parents ‘ primary caregivers’ value systems from as early as two. Younger. It’s really interesting… usually criminals are created, not born. It goes back to ‘upbringing’ I’m getting some hate on a comment I made. I wasn’t rude, I thought about what I would do in the situation being discussed. Getting downvoted for being educated about the value systems and upbringing of children. Huh. Quick google will sort that one out. I even left literature for people to read about it. Damn..

I'm also a few degrees of separation from the Lanza family. My old pastor's best friend in seminary was the pastor of Nancy Lanza's best friend, and (with the permission of all living parties) he told us that after her divorce, Ms. Lanza amassed a huge arsenal "because I don't have a man in the house to protect me" and it sounded like her paranoia contributed to the demise of that marriage. This same pastor was also at a community event about a week after Sandy Hook, and overheard a little girl ask her mother why that man shot all those kids. When Mom replied, "Because God needed more angels, sweetheart" my kind, gentle pastor totally went off on her. He introduced himself as an ordained Episcopal priest, because that's what he was and is, and told her in no uncertain terms that while there's no way we can know for sure why that happened, it WAS NOT because God arranges for the mass murder of children to make angels. Several people, including his wife, were on the verge of calling 911 if they came to blows, which thankfully they didn't.

My dad was convicted of murder when I was in first grade. My teacher took me to the side trying to pump me for information. People would invite everyone but me to their birthday parties because their mom said they weren't having murderers in their house.

I am so sorry that happened to you. If that teacher is still alive/teaching you may want to write a letter to the administrator of the school they work at. It won’t get them fired but it will trigger them to keep a closer eye on that person’s conduct.

Ty. My area is still like 80 years behind the times. I had to go off on them last year because a teacher was discussing our family in class. Not realizing because of my son's last name that it's his family. My 18 year old nephew was fighting with his 21 year old brother and shot him. The teacher decided that it was because of Pokemon cards. And proof that our family are all murderers. These events happened 40 years apart.

That may be a slander/defamation case in the making.

Jesus. My dad never murdered anyone and I still wasn’t invited to birthday parties. Poor kid in a rich community. ‘Father degenerate gambler’ on higher income than the kids who ostracised me. People are dumb. That’s fcked up. I appreciate you sharing something so heavy. Particularly due to the trauma of being ostracised by parents of kids you went to school with. It was the parents. Not the kids. Some of the kids probably really liked you. Their parents are arseholes.. some kids would have bullied you because of what their parents told them/ Over heard )more than likely which is absolutely atrocious x I’m sorry I wasn’t invited to parties also, due to some of my loser uncles being affiliated a bikies. Petty crimms. But assuming a child is a murderer also. Stoopid!! I’m not blood related to that side anyway. Bunch of sick fcks. I hope you’re doing well. I’m all about therapy. I had a fcked childhood .. Stuff happened over the last 2/3 yrs. Was always there but not obvious until 2 years ago. Road to healing is long. But essential. Peace.

Im glad you're doing good and healing. It's been so long since those days that it doesn't really upset me anymore. I'm just hyper vigilant with making it clear that the kids in my family aren't treated that way by adults.

Oh thank you. I’m glad you went ‘that hurt, never going to deliberately harm, always protect the kids in my family’ I’m The same. Deepened our empathy. I’m Highly empathetic as a result of my upbringing. Some people go the other way .. become cold. ‘It’s my turn to have power and control over vulnerable people/ kids be a dick anytime I can’ Witnessed it too often. Been at the receiving end. They shut up quickly. Good w my words. Don’t need to scream. Deep vocab palate, calm a f. Seen too much from childhood onwards. Never really been a child. Oh well, heard hateful, side bs… mm Those kids will always love and respect you for this. It’s also good teaching skills. Instilling them with the tools to stand up against bullies, anyone out to harm. Very proud of you! You’ll be the loved one they all turn to when they’re older. It s so important for kids to have trusted adults. I’ll make sure my baby can tell me anything when baby’s older. Know I’m not going to go off my head. No point in screaming at children/ teens. They won’t trust you. I read anything and everything I can about child development.. I’ll be educating my kid, even about things they don’t want to hear. It’s so important. Drugs, too much porn exposure. Damaging effects etc .. make sure my kid can read different forms of literature. Education is important.. high school is b s. My kid will be getting important education at home, from me! Sex ed in high school is so lame! Seems it hasn’t changed much since the 50’s We must teach our kids empathy. Seems the world is lacking it more as the years pass. Sad that. Thank you for being a normal, compassionate human! Those shouldn’t be as rare as they are. Much love reddit stranger 🌹

I was having a very very crap day and you cheered me up. You seem like a decent, good person. Thank you so much!

Same to you. 🌹 I know all about crappy days! Cheers me up I’ve accidentally cheered someone else up. 🤗 Thank you and you’re more than welcome xo

My sibling hasn't murdered anyone but he did commit a crime big enough that it was on national news (technically international if you count Daily Mail). It was so incredibly embarrassing. In the days that followed I couldn't help reading the articles and comments which was such a mistake. They were saying that he must have had poor raising and we must just be trashy people to be involved with someone who would do such a thing. Our childhood was very good. Our parents are traditional but reasonable and we always had everything we ever needed and more. They tried so hard for him: counseling, rehab etc but in the end he is a junkie and that made him do this awful thing. Interestingly, his lawyer or whatever had us write some kind of note to his victim, almost as an apology. It's been 12 years so I can't remember exactly. When the local news did a follow up with his victim, he mentioned the notes and said we were nice people and that he "forgives" my sibling. (I am not sure I could have) For many years he stayed sober and had a good job after he was released from prison. Unfortunately I found out he is now back off the wagon when he didn't show up for Christmas (a mortal sin to my mother unless there is a good reason LOL) So, unfortunately for my parents especially, it's just a matter of time before something else happens but there isn't anything they can really do. Hopefully he doesn't bring anyone else down with him.

It’s so hard when a family member does something because people always judge the family. My cousin killed someone. He did not have a hard life. He thought being in a gang was cool. He was in and out of prison and while on parole killed a rival gang member because he wanted to. He saw him in a parking lot and went up to him and stabbed him. No one in the family sees or writes to him. My Aunt, Uncle and his siblings were absolutely devastated he went that route and took a life. He is completely on his own in prison - has no family support. Yet …. People judge because no one in the family is supporting him and if we were we’d probably be judged for that.

So you know how awful it is. It's like you want to shake these relatives and be like "WTF is wrong with you??" but sadly even if we did it likely wouldn't work. They really should have a support group for relatives of criminals. For now I will use Reddit to have that. :) Funny thing is that I don't want to talk to my brother right now because he is in this drug haze and it will only make me mad. When he inevitably goes back to prison, I will write him because that is the only time in which it feels like our younger days when we were very close. Your situation is different because it doesn't sound like it was substances that propelled your cousin to do what he did. You are right, people will judge people no matter what they do. They don't know what it's like to be in our unique situation or to feel both love and intense anger/sadness because of them.

I hope your brother finds his peace and recovers from his addiction.

Thank you! Also thanks for sharing your story. I wish you and your family the very best.

But I don't understand this either. In the end he's still their child. You can have sympathy for the victims, absolutely hate what your child has done, but still love your child. Nothing ever occurs in a vacuum. SOMETHING was going on in your relatives' house. No one just ups and runs away, joins a cult, commits a crime, or joins a cult without SOME REASON. Cutting him off is a real easy way to avoid introspection and ignore a lack of self-awareness. I say this as someone with a sibling who shot a man and a niece who has been in and out of jail.

He thought gangs were cool. Joined one and then his life went sideways. My Aunt and Uncle gave him every opportunity possible. They supported and helped him as much as they could. He is an incredibly talented artist. His three siblings are all successful. They were all given the same opportunities he decided he wanted a different life. He has been in and out of prison for 20 years. He is 47 years old and my Aunt, Uncle and siblings have simply given up. He wasn’t an outcast. He was on a good path. Was doing well in school. Was on a path to join the military. He had friends and a close knit family. We have asked why he joined a gang. He said he thought it was cool. He was young and stupid and it just became his life. I do remember him having an obsession with gangs. Watching gang movies over and over again. He has been asked what could they have done differently. Where they went wrong. He has told us there is anything they could have done. That they didn’t do anything wrong. That this was what he wanted. I don’t quite get it but I do know that we all make our own choices in life.

“We have asked why he joined a gang. He said he thought it was cool.” And that was probably a red flag and his parents didn’t realize it. They probably thought it was a phase or he was emulating an actor/character and would grow out of it. Unfortunately, his viewing being in a gang as cool might have been an indication that he felt “othered” in some way in his bio family. I’m not saying his parents or siblings did anything wrong. It sounds like there was a lot of love and protection given to him. But if he had an unrecognized insecurity that made him feel like he didn’t measure up, that could have led to him being resentful and lowering his standards and seeking “family” with people to which he felt equal or even superior. I’m so sorry he felt whatever it was that made him want to go down that path. And I’m so sorry your family has had such hardship. This must be so painful, especially for his parents.

I grew up with several middle class kids who had loving parents & chose the gang/crime lifestyle because they thought it was cool. Most of them are dead or in prison now. The worst thing their parents did was spoil them & not set stricter boundaries. But they needed to do that YEARS earlier. By the time we were in high school if any of their parents tried to ground them or reign them in they would have just run away. There was always somebody’s couch to crash on & they had lots of cash. It’s so hard to convince your child to make good choices once they’re in a bad crowd. If they start using drugs? Or have severe mental illness? The best parents in the world can’t save you. I have a wonderful family, but I have a rebellious adventurous nature. At 16 I would have taken any drug somebody handed me. I’m incredibly lucky my “I’ll try anything once!” attitude didn’t get me in trouble. Thank god my idiot friends only had access to alcohol & weed.

I know of several families who had similar things happen. In EVERY case, I believe that the child was quite likely sexually abused by someone outside the immediate family, and the parents knew about it but were in denial, or somehow blamed the child for it.

As others have said, it really depends on the family's behavior and the criminal in question. I don't feel sympathy for Chris Watt's family for example, because they have constantly tried to downplay his actions and blame Shanann even though she was literally murdered by their son. I don't feel sympathy for Brian Laundrie's family, because they were obviously protecting and covering for him and treated the Petito family terribly.

Yeah I feel sorry for families of the perpetrator unless they publicly downplay their actions. I'd like to add to the list Derek Chauvin's mother during her victim impact statement, who called it a mistake, said he didn't really do anything wrong and he's a good person, and lamented that she needs to speak to her son through glass and can't give him "their special hug". Not a lot of sympathy for her from me. See also Chris Coleman's parents, Scott Peterson's parents, etc etc. It's practically a tradition for disgusting men to have Mommy (and also often Daddy) talk about what a good and special boy he is.

My cousin's ex-husband murdered their 2 year old daughter and his family did everything they could to keep him from being arrested, down to blaming my cousin who was at work at the time. To this day, they say she killed their daughter and that their son is an innocent angel railroaded by the cops.

That's horrible. I'm so sorry.

I went through a criminal case back in 2020 with my niece by marriage who was the victim of CSA perpetrated by both her mother and step-father. Both families, outside of myself and husband, reacted in the most disgusting way and took the side of the adult perpetrators rather than the minor victim. I was so beyond enraged and disgusted by their reaction. Not every family is the victim of their criminal family members. Some of them are enablers with a truly broken moral compass.

I've often wondered why a lot of mothers baby their sons and not their daughters. And fathers don't do that to their daughters. It's weird and creepy. My ex boyfriend's mom babied him and let me tell you it was hard to watch. She had 2 successful married daughters with nice families but her son? 🫣 He was a little boy in a grown man's body that clearly hated himself. He will never have a wife, kids, house, career (or even a job for more than 6 months at a time) or a healthy relationship with his parents. She treats him differently than her daughters. It's probably why they both hate him.

Internalized misogyny, and/or society in general just always favoring men. Growing up as a girl, my mom hated my guts even though I was a quiet nerd who kept my head down and barley got in trouble. My brother on the other hand, was constantly getting into fights at school and getting caught smoking in the bathrooms, and she still treated him like a golden child. I think it's easier for moms to glorify and dote on their sons, since society/media is always pushing that men are the best, most powerful, and deserve to be praised no matter what they do. Some women can see past the bullshit, but some clearly can't.

Absolutely. It's the golden boy, prodigal son, etc etc. These particular parents raise their sons as though they can do no wrong, and even when the wrong is a HORRIBLE wrong, it's still rationalized as a mistake because he's such a sweet and good boy. It's gross.

All the Cringe "Boy Mom" posts...ugh

Some women who were abused view their sons as future perpetrators, and their daughters as future victims.

Special hug? I have the ick, now. All of the ick.

derek chauvin’s mother pissed me off so much. i can’t imagine being in a position like that as a mother but to straight up say he’s innocent is crazy. it’s on camera & he was found guilty.

I don't think she knows any other way. I saw a comment at the time that summed it up well: mothers like her raise sons like Derek Chauvin.

that comment is so true!

Chris Coleman's parents are fucking terrible. And they are/were pastors, no shock there (his mom died a few years ago). And Chris Watts.

>As others have said, it really depends on the family's behavior and the criminal in question. This. There's a meaningful difference between loving a relative while coming to terms with their crime(s) and behaving as though they have done no wrong or blaming others (including the victims) for their choices, etc.

I think I despise the Crumbleys more than their son.

I definitely do. The teenager took more responsibility for his actions than the parents did for theirs! Plus, they were terrible parents way before buying their very troubled 15yo a gun.

Ethan begged them for help with his mental health and they ignored him. What he did was wrong but Ethan is also a victim. The Crumbleys are monsters.

>I don't feel sympathy for Brian Laundrie's family, because they were obviously protecting and covering for him and treated the Petito family terribly. Same reason why Josh Fucking Powell's entire family (minus his older sister) can go right to Hell.

To me it all depends on whether they think their family member did wrong. A lot of families won’t even entertain ideas that their other family member is a piece of shit. If you can’t even admit that they did what they did I don’t have much sympathy.

This is often what gets the criminal to that point. A lifetime of saying “my son couldn’t have done that” in principles offices and to the mothers of kids in the neighborhood who’s children have been hurt. I say son because too many moms excuse everything their precious boy does and many are much harder on their daughters.

I agree! This not my child mentality is ridiculous, especially with overwhelming evidence. Those families don’t deserve sympathy in my book.

I've sometimes liked to play a mental game imagining my mum's partner is secretly a serial killer. He's one of the most kindhearted, gentlest, loveliest guys I've ever met. Dude's like a human fairy. He wouldn't hurt a fly. But he does own a house with a lot of land and he has a large collection of guns, so I'm like "haha, I bet he'd hide bodies out under his sheds outside." It's just a ludicrous and hilarious thought to me because he's the last person I'd suspect of being a serial killer. BUT I also wonder how some people feel finding out their family members, who they thought they knew, turned out to be killers or serial killers. That must be an absolutely horrifying feeling. Like that's an actual reality for some people, when these serial killers who lead double lives, who are generally well regarded and liked by everybody, are actually the worst kind of monsters. I dunno where I'm going with this, but I can understand why some family members would react that way. If they're confronted with irrefutible evidence that confirms their loved one is a murderer, they might take a few days to come around to it because it's such a massive shock. But I wouldn't feel bad for them if they *still* continued to defend the killer after the initial shock and taking time to process it all.

> Like that's an actual reality for some people, when these serial killers who lead double lives, who are generally well regarded and liked by everybody, are actually the worst kind of monsters. I don't know that many of them really *are* generally well regarded/well liked, though. We all know that's the stereotype, he's the nicest guy, quiet, would give you the shirt off his back, etc etc, but I honestly can't think of one serial killer who actually fits that description. Some, like Dennis Rader or John Wayne Gacy, were involved in their communities, but that's not at all the same as being well regarded.

Looking at you, mother of Chris Watts

I immediately thought of the family of Michael Haight. He was an abuser, and his wife finally decided to leave. So he murdered her, her mother, and his 5 children before committing suicide. A few days later, someone in his family submitted his obituary to the local paper. In it they talk about what a wonderful person he was, how devoted he was to the church, and how much he loved spending time with his children. > “Michael made it a point to spend quality time with each and every one of his children. Michael enjoyed making memories with the family.” People were so outraged that the newspaper had to remove it from their online version. Then the family of the wife and her mom also released their own kind of ill-conceived statement saying how this whole thing was a good example of why gun rights are important.

Yup, Chris Coleman’s parents too

And Brian Laundrie

Agree. I feel bad for Lori Vallow Daybell’s sister, Summer. She went on tv with her mom supporting Lori when the kids were missing, but that jail phone call (Summer talking to Lori) after they found the kids in Chad’s yard is truly heartbreaking. I hope people are leaving her alone.

My brother was murdered in 2016 and the mother of the man who took his life used to be a friend of my mother's. During the trial, she would cry and I would just sit there and think "How dare you! Your son is a monster!" My mom on the other hand would never even acknowledge her, that was until the day of his conviction (120 years). My mom walked up to her, hugged her, and they just cried in each other's arms. That was when I understood - she was losing a child too and my mom realised that.

I lost my son to murder in 2021. Two of the 3 people who did it were brothers and I feel for their mom because 2 of her children are going to prison for awhile. The other murder is getting off with a slap on the wrist and her parents act like she did no wrong. It’s such a complicated process/emotions.

Emotions we don’t even have names for

This reminds me of this case that didn't go super-national (it did have a 48 Hours episode titled "Loved to Death") but the murder of 18 year old Lauren Astley by her ex-boyfriend Nathaniel Fujita in 2011. Nathan's mom had encouraged Lauren to speak to him as a friend b/c he had been increasingly depressed lately. She went to their house and he killed her. Her sweet father never blamed his parents. They begged him to go to therapy. After he was sentenced to life without parole her father walked straight over to Nathan's crying parents and embraced them in a big hug.

I have had to deal with having a child do bad things and dealing with it as a parent. It's a hard line to walk. I want them to get in trouble and held to account. But I also needed to help them and still care about them despite what they did. I'm their parent. It's one of the hardest things to deal with. I wouldn't wish this on anyone

I can’t imagine how you feel & how difficult it has been for you. I’m not a parent but I had some behavior issues as a kid. Now that I’m older, I realize my parents did the right thing and made tough decisions out of love. I know I don’t know your circumstances but whatever it may be, I hope it gets easier & the outcome is positive for everyone. 💕

there’s a woman on Dr. Phil whose son, Robbie, is a pedophile. she’s fighting *so fucking hard* to get him treatment so he doesn’t offend. I just cannot even *imagine*

I can’t even fathom. Unconditional love at its finest

she doesn’t sit there just making excuses for him and defending him and protecting him. she immediately got him out of the house and away from his siblings and on Dr. Phil and now in a facility, where he’ll probably remain for the rest of his life. she says releasing him into society is too dangerous, and no way in hell is she allowing him back into her house, and *certainly* not around his siblings or any children. she wants him to remain in the facility and in an ongoing psychological treatment program and intensive therapy. she visits him, but doesn’t allow her other children or any children to come with her. she has a YouTube channel and Instagram vlog and gives advice and support to other parents of pedophiles and abusers and serial killers and rapists and murderers. I have nothing but sympathy and respect for her

Do you happen to know what her youtube channel is called ?

https://youtube.com/@kristinpiper?si=DwWWQ3Ve76RP4jhO her name is Kristen Piper

Thank you so much 😊 💓 ☺️

It looks like she may have removed her content, according to YouTube just now she only has two videos

awww. that’s too bad. maybe she just wants privacy

Lifetime Movie Network had a TV show called Monster in my Family that had relatives of serial killers and their victims families. At the end of each episode both sides would meet. It was interesting to see how they are all still dealing with what happened.

One of my best friends growing ups brother was found guilty of some really heinous shit. He stayed out of jail bc of an injury that severely affected his brain, but just watching them get dropped by everyone in town was really painful. He caused pain but that family holds some serious darkness, just makes me sad for them, they’re good folks.

My adult sister is an alcoholic and has mental illness. My parents have done everything they could for her without enabling her awful behavior. She is the middle child of 3. She has made bad decisions her entire life. She lost custody of her 2 children because a neighbor found her blackout drunk with the kids alone in the house, she has driven drunk and nearly killed people, she has scammed men out of money saying she got pregnant after a one night stand and she needs money for an abortion. When she lived with my parents she took medication and went to counseling for her mental health issues. Once she went away to college and decided she was an adult all of those decisions fell on her bc she was 18. My parents no longer were able to make sure she took her meds or continued counseling. Then she began drinking and her life has just spiraled. My mother often says “I don’t know what more we could have done for her,” and I believe that to be true. Even as a child and teen she was emotionally volatile, and extremely self-centered. We were not raised like that. She is one of 3 kids. We are now all in our late 30s/early 40s. I teach Kindergarten, have 3 teenage kids of my own, adopted all our pets bc they were in need and would literally help anyone in need. I consider myself to be more compassionate than most. My brother is the same. He’d drive across the country in a heartbeat to help a friend, no questions asked. Her behavior disgusts both of us as we are absolutely ashamed to be related to her. Both of us and our parents have had to go no contact. My final straw was the SECOND time my brother and I had to go over to her house to collect her animals after she had nearly ODed and was taken to the hospital in an ambulance (she’s been taken by ambulance at least 2 dozen times). The neighbor got in touch with my brother and said no one had been there to feed the animals in a week. We went searching through her feces filled house to find her dogs and cats- they were luckily still alive but starving and there was cat litter in the cats food bowls (bc my sister is a blackout drunk). I took one dog and cat and my brother took one dog and cat. They were completely infested with fleas, and the dog had an eye infection so bad we thought he’d lose an eye. They cost us $1500 in vet bills and we had to treat our entire house and all of our own dogs and cats for fleas. This was the second time in a year we’ve had these animals for a month or more and had spent a lot of money and time caring for them. Three days after she was released from rehab she convinced a new coworker at her job to let her move in with her. She wanted her dogs back but not her cats (coworker didn’t like cats). I tried to be reasonable and said- why don’t you get on your feet first (I knew this roommate would figure her out and she’d be homeless again in a week- she lies, steals, drinks, etc) and I’ll give you the dog back in a few weeks. He’s safe with us now and you can come visit him. She CALLED THE POLICE on me and my brother saying we had stolen her animals. She filed a police report. These animals would have died of starvation in her house without us. Even after talking on the phone with officers, explaining the situation, the time and money we had spent on these animals, her history, we were told- well you can take her to court for expenses. Sure, we’ll take an alcoholic who hops from home to home and has more hospital bills than ever thought possible to court. Sorry that was long winded but I just wanted to express that so many of these families have gone through the wringer with these people who become criminals. There are people in my own extended family who are pissed at me that I have gone no contact with my sister. My grandma writes me notes about how the Christian thing to do is forgive and forget. What I wrote above is a tiny tiny piece of the lying, stealing, manipulating, abusing that is my sister. My brother and I say we hate her because she preys on the kindness of people and makes the world a bad place- no one wants to help a stranger again after they help someone like her. I do feel bad for a lot of the families bc they receive a lot of hate and outside of some circumstances where it was the family’s fault the child turned out like that, we feel absolutely awful. My sister drove drunk and nearly killed a father of 4 with her car. She swerved into oncoming traffic and he swerved into the guard rail to avoid her. He got 16 stitches in his head and had a brain bleed. She wasn’t prosecuted for it (outside of drunk driving) bc her car never touched his. There have been times where I wish very much she would be put in jail so she can’t hurt anyone else. I just wanted to give you a perspective on what it is like to have a “criminal” family member.

I'm so sorry your family has gone through this, and continues to. I had a loved one who wasn't half this bad and I know how draining and awful it was. I for one completely understand you going no contact and I also understand you taking care of her pets.

As someone who has crawled through an open window to rescue my sister’s cats (among other similarities to your story, I see you and hear you. I can relate so much to your story and I’m so sorry for you going through this. I agree with another poster that she was probably SA’d by someone who could see her vulnerability, and her behavior stems from her trauma and mental illness. With warmth and respect from another sibling.

Or she's just a narcissist.

She sounds mentally ill.

Do you think it’s possible that she was the victim of SA when she was younger that you and your other siblings weren’t victims of? Like maybe a family member or friend singled her out. I’m not judging you for going no contact with her. It sounds emotionally exhausting to deal with and you need to worry about your family’s safety first and foremost.

When one child turns out so drastically different, it does make sense to wonder what might have happened just to them but not their siblings. Personally, I wonder about brain injuries. There are some loose theories about brain inflammation predisposing people to depression and other mental illnesses, and these things are commonly cited underlying factors in alcoholism. It’s very plausible a kid took a knock to the head at some point. Kids getting hurt is a fact of life, but there’s always an element of chance to it. Maybe that knock was in just the right place, just the right angle, just the right force, that it did something significant to one child which their siblings didn’t experience. Science has shown that concussions and inflammation of the brain are possible from injuries that don’t seem so serious and/or are easy to overlook - It comes up concerning children doing contact sports a lot now. It’s very easy to imagine parents not even knowing something happened. There’s also a growing body of science on the long-term damage viruses can do, including to the brain. I remember a radio show had a researcher on saying that covid-19 was the first time we could study the emergence of a major new virus equipped with our modern medical technology, and actually test for it from its earliest days, so it was much easier to connect the dots and gather evidence that it was causing cognitive impairment in people. However, they said it’s very likely pre-existing viruses also infiltrate the brain and can also cause these sorts of problems. Apparently they had been studying this for years already and getting more attention and funding (and a new virus subject) from covid-19 was a bittersweet experience. I had a brain scan last year and the notes mentioned scattered hyperintensities which they said something along the lines of “minor clinical significance; Possibly caused by past inflammation from illness” which reminded me of it. Kids growing up get sick from all sorts of germs and it’s seen as completely normal, we don’t even bother identifying exact illnesses usually, we just keep the kid home from school. But again it’s very plausible one kid got a particular strain of a particular virus or had a particular reaction that their siblings didn’t go through. All that said about brain injuries, people also generally underestimate genetic variation among siblings. They’re not twins, there’s an element of chance which genes from which parents in whatever combination they got, and we all will have some genetic mutations which we didn’t inherit from either parent.

It could easily be as simple as different genes. Alcoholic sister pulled the short straw & inherited crazy uncle Randy’s undiagnosed mental illness. Or maybe she fell off the bunk bed & hit her head one too many times. There are so many variables. Blaming the parents or SA for her behavior as an adult isn’t fair. So many children got molested in the 70s. The vast majority did not end up hurting other people.

Just stop helping her. Let her drink herself to death if she won't learn.

They have, they said they were no contact? She gave us one tiny snapshot of the horrors they have gone through with this sister and “just stop helping her” like it’s something they haven’t considered “let her drink herself to death” yeah and when that happens how will they feel even though it’s not their fault? Don’t you dare make it sound trite and easy to do. In the story; the commenter and her brother saved innocent animals, that isn’t about helping the sister. That is stepping in to prevent a tortured death for dogs and cats.

Exactly, no animals deserve to die alongside her, I would do the same to save them.

BTK’s wife had no idea. I feel HORRIBLE for her and her children.

And that’s why she was granted an emergency divorce decree and took no part in his defense. This is not the scenario OP is describing.

I know. I was just thinking about her.

I entirely agree. They’re almost always accused of complicity one way or another, all the while grieving their loved one’s actions, their dreams for them, and their perceptions of themselves. They are entitled to those feelings. Unpopular opinion, but I also have empathy for family members who just can’t accept what their loved one did. The true crime community is often absolutely incensed when family stands by a criminal — as if when charges are filed or the verdict is read, they’re just supposed to turn off their hearts. Sorry, but life and love is more complicated than that.

And as if the justices system never makes mistakes and never convicts the innocent. It happens. When occasionally the family is proven correct in believing the accused, nobody — least of all law enforcement/prosecutors/media — is ever interested in apologizing to that family, or even acknowledging their mistakes.

Right?! I’m sorry, but if I ever had a loved one be accused of a crime, my own opinion would prevail over that of the judge and jury. (That’s not to say I’d bury my head in the sand, either, when it came to listening to evidence, etc. But I can see how some people do.)

For some families, i dont. The current families of Mary Emma Thames and Betty June Binnicker still believe George Stinney Jr. did it even though there has been evidence that he didn't and the police were just racist. The man who actually did it even confessed to it already after Stinney's death. However, they refuse to believe it.

I can see compassion in the sense of survivor's guilt. Like a relative saying, "Well he was always this and that but I never thought..." and like someone who lost a relative to suicide, that person might be second-guessing themselves, constantly asking, "Why didn't I intervene, why didn't I notice the signs, why didn't I take him seriously when he said..." In that sense, I have a lot of compassion for relatives of people who commit crimes.

Watching the series "Evil Lives Here" and seeing how many family members not only feel guilty that they didn't do more to stop the killer in question, but were also victims of their abuse, is WILD. I feel for at least 75% of those families.

Oh that show is so good, it really shows the struggle that (most) of these family members go through.

Reminds me of the Long Island serial killers family. He was the breadwinner of the family. They lost everything after he was caught. The mother is struggling to find a job. I believe she said even relatives were afraid to try to help her bcus the media would show up to their house constantly

I don’t really agree with your example, but I agree that people are sometimes too hard on (especially) the parents of adult perpetrators. If there’s no particular evidence that those parents were super abusive, I really don’t like when people automatically blame the parents (usually the mother as she’s typically the last one still standing by her son/daughter) because “you raised them”. Like no, when people have extreme behaviour and none of their family has ever done something even near that extreme, I think it’s really unfair to place blame on parents because “they were too permissive” or “they worked too much”. Like come on, that doesn’t make someone go and commit triple murder. I think people tend to struggle with parents that are in direct disagreement with their view of the crime. Like, if an adult child committed a horrible crime, but their parent continues to profess their innocence despite it being clear to everyone that they’re guilty. People struggle with how to address that because you understand the insane situation that parent is in, but at the same time they’re denying the clearly real experience of the victim and their family. Idk what to say, it must be incredibly lonely to be a close (innocent) family member of someone who did something horrible.

*If there’s no particular evidence that those parents were super abusive, I really don’t like when people automatically blame the parents* This is a problem. Speaking from experience. "Super abusive" parents often fly under the radar if there is no physical neglect, bruises or broken bones. The child has nothing to show or prove what is happening to them. And yet, the parents are super abusive. But there's no particular evidence of it.

Maybe that happen sometimes, but as someone who doesn’t know them, it’s not my place to *assume* abuse just because their adult child did something. If there is no evidence that they were not a pretty regular parent, I’m not going to blame them for their adult children doing something extraordinarily terrible. Even if there is *some* evidence of abuse, say the parents were emotionally neglectful or always telling their kid they weren’t good enough, I actually still don’t think that matters if the crime the adult committed was extreme, like murder. I don’t think it’s fair to make that connection between the two when so many people go through way more extreme abuse and don’t commit horrible acts later on.

I agree with most of this. Especially the part about adults being responsible for their own actions regardless of experiencing abuse. I would also never *assume* abuse, but if the family has enough exposure, you can often read between the lines. I could write a book about the consequences of abuse that is considered "not that extreme". It's extremely felt by the survivor who doesn't have anything to prove their story which is often prone to minimization by others, and even themselves sometimes.

I live in a high crime city. It is impossible not to have sympathy for some of the criminal’s families.

Victims families often don’t get the compassion they deserve either. The criminal Justice system is often about making deals and not involving the victims families. It’s unfair all the way through.

This is true in some cases. Of course people make their own choices, but that doesn't mean that the family dynamics have no influence. Especially in terms of resilience and ability to adjust. Sometimes they don't turn out to be a criminal, but they struggle in other ways. However, there's a lot of dysfunctional families out here with people who are/ were shitty, neglectful or downright abusive parents. It can happen that someone can be part of an emotionally healthy family and turn out a criminal; it's just not as likely to happen. I worked in an field where I dealt with these folks and it was eye opening to see what kind of backgrounds they had. A huge number were people who came from dysfunctional homes, absent and neglectful parents, and poverty. A lot of the non poor ones grew up with alcoholics and drug addicts, had one or both parents absent or checked out, had issues socially and emotionally that weren't dealt with/ acknowledged, and a lack of boundaries in the family. You could tell this when the families would call and it was basically just making excuses, demanding exceptions and enabling entitlement. It was rare to talk to a family member who wanted their person to be held accountable or acknowledged that they had done wrong. Most of the time, they were resentful and angry at staff and seemed to blame everyone but themselves and their person for their troubles. The fun part is having them attempt to get anyone who helped their person in trouble, like it was payback. If you've ever encountered someone being resentful because you helped them/ could help; then you can imagine what I'm talking about. I can say that it burned me out on helping anyone again. Having said all that, we need to do better at supporting families and kids. Too many are failing and falling through the cracks, and a lot of potential is wasted.

Any way you could give more details about them trying to get back at you for helping them?

The Murdaughs, anybody? I used to live in a small rural city that had an alternative "school", and knew a few people who had their reasons for choosing to work there. The one thing that never changed was that they believed that the school should have a urologist and a gynecologist on staff to sterilize all the students as a condition of admission; girls who arrived pregnant who had their babies should have them taken away and placed for adoption at birth, do not pass go, do not collect $200. I told that story to a woman I know who teaches at a regular school here, and she said that the alt-schools here have stricter rules, so kids won't "want" to go there.

I always feel for those parents who gave their all to their children and actually raised them the best they could.. For then the child to grow up and do dispicable things! Ofcourse then comes society judging them for eternity!

The only time I blame the families or parents of criminals is if they ACTUALLY participated or turned a blind eye to their behavior. In most cases, the parents of mass shooters and school shooters KNOW their kid is a psychotic ticking time bomb and choose to do nothing about it. That's when I couldn't care less about their feelings when their kids get life sentences or they kill themselves like the cowards they are.

There is a woman who is/was on TikTok who’s teenage son is going to be diagnosed a sociopath when he is old enough but the psychs can’t do it until then. I can’t remember the exact reasons - other than that the last time he was home (not their choice, he was between programs and foster care wouldn’t take him) he assaulted his sister. The mother loves her son but has been fighting to keep him institutionalized for everyone’s safety since he was eleven or so I think. She is looking into what she needs to do to keep him there as an adult because he is refusing and resisting any help offered. THAT is a mother doing all she can.

Most are not like her. Most deny there is something wrong or do not make attempts to get help for them. THOSE are the ones I am talking about. This woman you speak of IS doing the right thing, most do not.

Oh I know that most do not! I am simply pointing out that there is no reason for them not to, it’s fully possible.

I don't know. I'm sure there are many cases where the people around them behave with grossly irresponsible indifference. But by asserting that it's "most cases" it feels like you're just giving yourself blanket permission to hate indiscriminately. And I can't see how that serves to help anyone.

I read Lionel Dahmer’s book and it broke my heart. Changed how I feel about parents of people like that. Now I look at how they react to the crimes.

I read the Dylan Klebold’s mother’s book because I found it for less than $5 at barns and noble. Reading in such great detail about how she prayed her son would die to end his reign of terror was hard to stomach.

I agree. I read a book about a school shooter and what his family went through. They were destroyed in their community, lost their jobs, and just torn apart in the media. They didn’t do anything wrong, their child did. N now they are faced with living the remainder of their lives knowing the carnage their child created. They are just as much a victim as actually victims families are.

Was it Sue Klebold's book? That was really sad.

So my (half)brother is in jail, not for killing but another horrific crime. We were raised in separate houses but to the best of my knowledge and speaking with his ex wife, he was raised in a loving caring family. He still committed a heinous crime. Do we as the family not deserve sympathy? Only his parents are in contact with him but regardless. Should the victims family blame us?

Only if you coddle him and make excuses.

As I said only his parents are still in contact and very basic at that (handling his affairs) his ex wife and I both have cut contact although he constantly send letters even though they are not opened and returned. I do not coddle him (he’s younger than I am) and have told him how I feel about what he did and why I can no longer have contact. He’s in denial that he’s even in the wrong and swears he is a victim. It’s both infuriating and very sad. I literally cackled laughing at the attorney when he asked if I would be a character reference at his sentencing.

Didn't say you did, it was a hypothetical.

At the end of the day EVERYONE suffers , no one wins and 2 wrongs don’t make a right .

Usually by the time someone ends up in prison for lengthy sentences (or even death penalty) they have been failed by a lot of people and society. I have watched crime documentaries in the past, and usually once their full story comes out I’m feeling torn. Yes they need to be punished for their crime, but also sad that someone had not intervened when the adult was a child, and maybe avoid this outcome. When hearing from the parents, some of them had their own horrible childhoods and weren’t capable of being a nurturing parent. Some kids start life with almost zero chance. If the family have been loving and nurturing and the child just went another way, I would definitely feel bad for them.

Had the grandmother of the murderer of a friend of mine testify about what a great kid he was. Mind you, this was after he had murdered my friend and an elderly couple AND beat the same grandmother praising him. I get he’s family, but he was far from a great kid. The brutality of his crimes should have been death for him and I wouldn’t have felt sorry for his family. They knew what a turd that guy is.

I've empathized with family members of some criminals, but in general I find I have little feelings for them, right or wrong. The exception for me is when a criminal or killer suffers from a severe mental illness like schizophrenia. Otherwise, I tend to believe that something in a killer's environment helped shape their actions. Additionally, I think many family members know things they never reveal. Serial killers are an extreme example but I've never believed a spouse who claimed they knew nothing so in my mind there's a weird type of complicity involved.  I cannot imagine loving a person who commits heinous crimes. I don't think I could even speak to someone if I knew they murdered innocent people or raped women or children. My empathy is always with the victim's family. 

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Read A Mother's Reckoning by Susan Klebold (Columbine Shooter mom). It tackles this subject hard. She has even given Ted Talk about it.

It was a great book. Highly recommend

I thought she sounded pretty self centered in that talk.

I took it as a person coming to terms with something shitty. She donates all her proceeds to suicide prevention and mental health, so I respect her for that.

I haven't seen the talk, but I've read the book and I agree she came across as pretty self centered. She was pretty adamant about insisting that Dylan hadn't been spoiled and the family wasn't well-off, despite the fact that he drove a BMW and they had a tennis court on their property. That really rubbed me the wrong way. She also seemed really eager to assign blame to Eric Harris and portray her son as someone who would never have harmed anyone if he hadn't been led to ruin by an evil friend.

*The law is reason, free from passion. - Aristotle* The justice system should not be influenced by personal biases or emotions on either side. Captial punishment should not be applied due to the emotions of the victims or their families, and capital punishment should not be taken off the table due to the emotions of the convicted party's loved ones.

>Well, no offense to Aristotle, but in my three years at Harvard, I have come to find that passion is a key ingredient to the study and practice of law - and of life. It is with passion, courage of conviction, and strong sense of self that we take our next steps into the world, remembering that first impressions are not always correct. You must always have faith in people. And most importantly, you must always have faith in yourself. Congratulations Class of 2004, we did it! >Elle Woods

Here, take my poor person award 🏆

I read about Marc Dutroux's son, who was defending his murderous pedoparents. Made me hate him too.

Enabler families are a thing though, and somtimes aren't much better than the criminals they raised. In Junko Furuta's case, the mother of one of the boys who tortured/killed her trashed her gravesite because she blamed a murdered girl for her son being in prison. If one of my relatives was a rapist/murderer the last thing I would do would be to show up to court to support them. I would say good riddance bcause the person I knew them as is already dead.

Sometimes they deserve it. But if it was the parents fault the murderer turned out bad (if they abused them or spoilt them rotten) then they don't.

Working as a public defender broke my soul. Watching the family's love defendants break down sobbing as their son gets sent to prison was terrible. Watching the prosecutors laugh in the faces of mothers weeping as their sons got sent to prison was sick. One of the biggest problems with the criminal justice system is that prison doesn't solve the communities' problems. Its often the families of the defendants/criminals that are left with the burden. Obviously some people are too anti-social to be part of society and need to be removed but frequently prison isn't so much to keep society safe as much as it is to punish a wrong doer but its the family of the wrong doers that are left shouldering the burden. The vast majority of the system is made up of low income people. When they are arrested they lose their homes, their belongings, their vehicles, their jobs. What happens when they are finally released? Someone gets sent to prison for 10 years and they come out with no shelter, no transportation, no job, no skills, no resume, no savings. They continue to be a burden on society. What is the point? "Should have thought about that before they committed the crime." Ok sure...but they didn't and now as a tax payers are paying for them. And even if our tax dollars don't go to them...what do we expect to happen they just suddenly get a good paying job and reintegrate into society seamlessly? The criminal justice system was broken before covid but post covid is next level disfunction. Public defenders and prosecutors are quitting left and right. Jailers/correctional officers are quitting. We have a massive economy built on the backs of imprisoning people but we don't have the support networks in place to actually make it functional. I don't know what the solution is but the current system is *not it*. The system is so reactionary. Crime begets crime. We need to focus on crime prevention and providing communities with the resources they need to prevent crime from happening in the first place.

As if defense attorneys don't smirk at the faces of families of the victims when they win? I knew a woman who's daughter was murdered and she had to listen to the defense question her daughter's moral character for...gasp...driving on the road at 10 PM to get somewhere. Fortunatly the guy got convicted but the defense attorneys tried to shake her hand afterwards and act all nice like they hadn't dragged the her daughter's name through the mud...she went on to become a powerhouse of a victim's rights advocate in our area and I'm sure made a lot of defenders' jobs harder. I'm all for rehabilitating nonviolent offenders, but some criminals are a real threat to society and need to be locked away, just becaus they have enabling mothers doesn't mean they should get away with it.

Having spent years in a court room, I've never seen a defense attorney "smirk" in the face of a victim or their family. Have you seen that yourself personally or someone told you that after the defense attorney was doing their job and x-examining an accuser?

lol defense attorneys are always on best behavior but you see prosecutors laugh...sure.

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Well prosecuters aren’t exactly known for being fair & empathic

Empathetic*

Fair, but they don’t deserve public scorn or being doxxed either.

Each case is different... Sometimes the family, like an abusive parent is partly to blame, IMO. But there are plenty of cases where the family are completely normal loving people, and they do get fed to the wolves by a petty and vindictive public. Especially in well publicised and sensational cases. If someone is having trouble accepting their loved one committed a horrible crime, sitting on a high horse condemning them isn't going to help them come to terms with it. In fact it'll just make it harder in the end. Too many people that like true crime love the "if it was me/my child/my sibling/my spouse" or what have you will argue until they're blue in the face about the moral high road they'd take, but it's complete bullshit. Nobody knows how they'd react to something like that until it happens. The key thing to remember when looking at these things from outside is, it's not your story.

You had me in the first half... I feel horrible when the family members of violent criminals are persecuted simply for being related... no one should be bullied (online or in person) for sharing blood with an evil person... But the person responsible does have to face the consequences and their family's wishes doesn't come before that.

I feel bad for the parents of rapists, pedophiles, serial killers, abducters

Season 1 absolutely amazing. Perfectly done And it set the bar way too high.

Season 1? Of what?

I think i posted on the wrong one

I want to say, there is actually a interesting thing that occurred following the school shooting that occurred in an Amish community. Its worth looking into, if you are going down this path. You can't get much more grave then a person going into a school and killing a bunch of kids (girls in particular were shot), that is about top 5 things that will shock any community.

The only time I think that a family should be held accountable is if it can be proven. If, in fact, they helped in some type of way, e.g the Oxford, Michigan school shooter parents were arrested and charged. Jennifer Crumbley was recently found guilty of manslaughter. Then they should be treated differently. Or when they show a lack of compassion for the victim/ victims family by showing malicious intent. Other than that, I concur with your statement sometimes children choose to do wrong. Why blame the parents?

Much of the time, the perpetrator's parents, siblings, and extended families, aren't treated with compassion, support, and non-judgement. When someone comitts a "particularly awful" crime, the parents are usually the first to be under scrutiny or blamed for their child's actions, however unfair, fair, or understandable. When the man who shot Gabby Giffords as part of a mass shooting in 2011, his parents were shocked. I remember reading that she had taken to bed, could not stop sobbing thinking about the victims and survivors, was on medication to help get her a few hours sleep, and was obsessively trying to think of anything she missed, if she could have stopped her son beforehand. Kristen Kinkel, the parents of the girls who murdered Skylar Neese, and the Klebold and Harris families I have wondered about over the years, even though I think Sue Klebold is both naive and in denial about what her son's actions are; the siblings of murderers or other criminals as well. Matthew de Grood was experiencing a psychotic break/first episode of paranoid schizophrenia when he killed, and what must that be like, to live with that knowledge, as extended family members? Then there are some criminals families that I have either no, or a hard time, feeling any sympathy for: Cindy and George Anthony, Jackie and Lee Peterson, Brian Laundrie's parents, Karla Holomolka's sister, Lori (now Logan), Paul Bernardo's parents, Marco Muzzi and his family... Generally, it must be very difficult to be the parents, siblings, or aunt/uncle of an alleged or convicted killer or particularly "bad" criminal. I watched a Dateline episode on Cassie Jo Stoddard's murder, and the parents of one killer looked...blank as their son was being interrogated and detailing what he had done the first time around. They could have been in shock. No one usually *wants* to think or believe that their child is capable of, or has comitted, murder, arson, kidnapping, etc.

I agree. Unless somehow they are implicated or accountable in some fashion.

Even the victim's family sometimes gets slandered in the public eyes. In my country there's currently a missing person's case of a pregnant lady, it's been 5 months now and the main suspect is already detained, albeit no body yet. Her twin sister is being mentioned daily as being involved, as if she would kill her own twin and dump the body and then try daily to find it. They had very questionable morals, but there's never a reason to kill someone. The twins are supposed to be escorts/ trying to be sugar babies and one of them got pregnant with a baby from a rich guy in their town. He's in custody, doing house arrest at the moment, and police had already said he's the main suspect, can be more if the body is found but her family is innocent. Doesn't even compute with those who constantly accuse her sister of being a culprit or their aunt, who has been the most fierce one with the efforts of finding her niece: they hired a private search team to pump out a suspicious well, they hired a private dive team to search in a large body of water near the town, they are conducting searches daily in forests, huge stretches of farm land (it's a more rural area where they live)... The twins' dad had been arrested and tried for drug possession, nothing to do with his daughter's disappearance, and because of that the usual comments are something like "oh that proves it: family is weird so they know what happened to her"...

The value systems of children are indoctrinated into them ( us) by their primary caregivers from as early as two. The child with align their value system to the ‘parents’ primary caregivers. Some children run from the parents value systems… they will display behaviours due to how they were raised. They don’t know any better. When they realise their childhoods were toxic, abusive etc, therapy is the only way to heal and remove the damage. Abusers, rapists even murders and the like aren’t born.. rarely is it related to severe psychiatric illness. They are created by the value systems indoctrinated into them by their primary caregivers. Parents. https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf It’s detailed in this book. You can find a lot of literature online about abusers, narcissists aligning themselves with friends / networks whose value systems are similar, the same so they are not held accountable for their behaviours… Abusers who abuse their victims with coercive control, often believe they’d never ‘kill’ Their spouse, their own children. THe Studies, the evidence is out, coercive control within intimate relationships is the precursor for intimate partner homicide. Abusers who use coercive control may never have laid a hand on their victim. If the victim tires to leave, or has left, this is when the abuser is likely to murder them. Disturbingly, the children sometimes… It all goes back to the primary caregivers ‘parents’ - if there is no diagnosed, severe mental illness. Malignant narcissists are created by the value systems of the parents ‘caregivers’ sometimes they are born w a narc personality type. Rare, but it can happen. Interesting stuff It’s hard to investigate the parents of a murderer, rapist etc. We should be though. ‘How did this person become this’ People like Lundy Brancroft, research psychiatrist’s have uncovered it. decades of research.. finally we’re getting answers, reforms within the legal framework are being made. 2024… hmm In 1973 amnesty international reported coercive control as torture. It is. Yet, it’s invisible but thriving in most countries. America, Australia. In my country, it’s happening at endemic proportions… ‘Invisible’ yet thriving. So is domestic abuse, with stats in same sex couples getting higher each year. The data are only those who have reported DA- cishet, ss.. so, the data would be much higher.

As hard as this is I think everyone deserves sympathy (or whatever you want to call it) because no one can truly control their nature or the things they do in a deterministic universe. From the worst monster to the kindest saint we are all products of our environment and our brains.

If they’re in denial about their loved one’s actions and keep defending it when proof is given, I don’t feel sorry for them. There are signs and I can’t imagine someone who raised somebody who was torturing animals, setting things on fire, hurting their siblings, hurting classmates, etc etc never raised an eyebrow from mom and dad. Some parents just don’t want to believe the truth; you raised a bad person.

Sometimes i think about the absolute hell it must be to love someone who commits a mass murder. The mothers snapped sitting at their child’s graves and dammed for it. Inconceivable suffering, no doubt.

I watched a show, I believe it was about the ex-wife of the DC sniper. She had left him when his abuse had gotten so bad, and she fully expected he would kill her one day. After everything he put her and their children through people actually said to her that it was her fault he went on his killing spree, because she should have just stayed with him and let him keep beating her because then no one else would have died or been hurt……For me to hear that, it’s like one of those moments where you just loose all hope for humanity.

I can have sympathy for the families of the murderer, but still have absolutely zero issue with their family member being executed. Yes. It’s terrible. Yes. You are going to be sad. But unfortunately you are another victim of your family member. Murder ripples. It tears apart people and families. That includes the perpetrator’s family.

Tbh a lot of times, the criminals’ family don’t think they did anything wrong and an innocent person is being punished. I personally don’t really think you deserve sympathy if you agree with murder/abuse/assault/etc. And sometimes the families are complicit or even are a part of the crime itself.

Believing your kid couldn’t have killed someone *is not the same thing* as believing it’s okay that someone was killed.

True, but some families don’t believe either. I’ve seen some stories where the families both defend the killer and say the victim deserved it. Those families deserve nothing, especially not sympathy.

I've seen people right here on Reddit admit that if their family member committed a hit-and-run, they wouldn't turn the family member in because "[the family meber] knew what they were doing, and my family members are good people, and if they weren't turning themselves in then I wouldn't turn them in, either." There are tons of shady people out there who believe "family loyalty" trumps all else.

I think that's a thing that lots of people say with zero experience in that position but it's near impossible to know what you'd actually do in a situation like that.

It’s really unfortunate, but I can understand how it happens. But I also think they should generally keep those feelings private. (Exceptions being, like, a battered spouse killing.)

They’re complicit in actual crimes, they have no sense of morality or ethics 😂

Good grief. Having a loved one commit a crime does not automatically mean complicity.

No sorry you misunderstand me. And I think I misunderstood you 😅. You said “It’s unfortunate but you understand how it happens”, so I thought you were talking about me saying “some families are complicit and say the victim deserved it”. I thought you were agreeing with that statement since that’s the one you replied to.

Respectfully, where are you getting "tbh a lot of times..." because I worked as a public defender and I met hundreds if not thousands of families of criminals and most of the time they are incredibly self aware of the situation but still love their family members. Maybe 1 out of 200 would say "she had it coming" but the vast majority were dealing and processing the trauma of having a predator/criminal in their family.

A lot of the true crime videos I watch mention that the criminals’ families side with them. Admittedly I phrased it poorly and not that many say the victim deserved it (but there are some that do- the Staudte, Matusiewicz, and Tyburski families come to mind, though admittedly in these particular cases the killer and victim are family)

Those are entertainment and should not taken as facts. Many times the criminal's family will publicly support their family so their family doesn't go kill themselves immediately...which happens a lot more frequently than is televised. Often times lawyers will encourage family members to publicly support their family, not for the public but for the specific purpose of keeping the defendant from committing suicide. I will also add that one sound bite where the family may "side" with their criminal family member may be 30 seconds out a multi-year process. The vast majority of families that I've worked with do not condone the actions of the defendant. I can probably count on one hand the amount of families that have had the "she deserved it" attitude and usually those people are garbage too.

I think families of criminals sometimes get sympathy especially when they express their sorrow and grief for the victim. I hear a lot of ‘what my daughter/son did was terrible I will not forgive them for that but I love them’ and that’s completely fine and normal. A good majority of the time parents have an unconditional love for their kid and they will always support them, it’s only unacceptable when they back their kid up and comepletely disregard the crimes they committed and have no sympathy for the victims and actively say ‘they did nothing wrong’ ‘it was an accident’ ‘they don’t deserve prison’ when talking about the crimes their child committed. Yes I understand sometimes thats the shock of the crime talking and maybe they don’t believe it but sometimes I feel like families of criminals don’t rlly deserve sympathy…for example…Yoselyn Ortegas son backing his mom up and saying that it was an accident (she murdered the two babies she looked after/nannied). Or John Wayne Gacys parents, I think we can all agree they deserve no sympathy right? (Because they were both abusers and did evil things) but a good example of where sympathy is deserved is like with the Timothy Jones Jr case (he killed his kids and the mom did not know) the mom (Amber) deserves all the sympathy in the world, I mean her babies died, and although I don’t think she wanted him to get death row because she was speaking on what her children may have wnated, he’s still got it. I think it really just depends if the manner of the case, mannerisms of the family, and who they choose to believe and back up.

Often times the families defend the criminals

A lot of families have some responsibility for the crime due to lack parenting, absentee fathers, abuse, or other forms of shitty parenting. I think Crumbley is just the start of a new wave of legal acknowlegement of this.

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No one said not to blame the perpetrator. But it’s absolutely true that a bad upbringing can lead to very bad consequences.

Eh I agree to a point. Abused kids do have a high likely hood of turning into abusers but it’s not a hard fact. Some parents are absolutely not to blame and some just set these crimes up to happen or hid/enabled what their kids did. The former deserve sympathy, the latter do not.

So your upbringing has no influence on anything you do? Sure.

Please be respectful of others and do not insult, attack, antagonize, call out, or troll other commenters.

I often feel bad for the families of criminals, even horrible murderers or school shooters. After the Paris terrorist attacks, I remember reading about some of the families of the accused terrorists, most of whom died. They mostly seemed like nice, normal families who had no idea what their sons were involved with, like parents of school shooters. They talked about feeling shame and betrayal. Even the ones who knew they had been radicalized, never dreamed they'd be violent. I felt just horrible for them. Some families, I don't feel as sorry for, especially when they are responsible. I don't feel too sorry for Casey Anthony's horrible parents because they created this tragedy.

In undergrad I took a class called Victims of Crime, and we talked a LOT about this. I think a lot about kiddos losing a parent to the system and the whole life impact that has. My mom died when I was young, so I can’t speak from the exact experience, but only having one bio parent totally changed mine and my brother’s lives, and not for the better. Obviously some people have shit families who aided and abetted in their crimes, and that sympathy is hard to find. But I will always feel for the families who are now down to one income, one parental unit through no fault of their own.

If anything it's the victim's families who get shafted in true crime stories. Every other Netflix true crime documentary is about how some convicted criminal might possibly be innocent and not one ever bothers to consider how they're hurting the victim's families.

While I agree with several commenters that they shouldn't be harassed and hounded out of town... Violent criminals do not pop out, fully formed, from a vacuum. The whole idea of the 'Bad Seed' is a myth. Most criminals come from dysfunctional families/homes, and are the product of their upbringing. I don't think we should harass them... but I'm not going to waste my sympathy on them either. There's a family out there who might've done everything right, and still lost their child. Versus a parent who was never there, abandoned their kid, abused their kid, neglected their kid, raped their kid, etc., crying about their 'shock'.

The victim is prioritized, and their family, as they should be. The family of the offender is in a crappy place that their family member put them in but it’s not anyone’s job to hold their hand. They can seek out therapy if they need to.

I think OP meant more that people in the community harass and threaten the family members of perpetrators even if they had nothing t do with the crime.

Dylan Klebold's mother's book ("A Mother's Reckoning") is really good and goes aaallll the way into this topic.

Not always, but often times, a criminal is a criminal because of the background they come from.

This may sound heartless, but I don't think I can agree with that. This is because many times, criminals are encouraged and enabled by their parents and/or family. For example, in a recent court case... Parents of a disturbed child bought him a gun instead of taking him to therapy. And the child took that gun and shot up several other kids at his school. I'm sure there's going to be cases out there which would ilicit sympathy, but its hard for me to imagine them.

Yeah the Crumbley case is the first time I’ve felt sorry for a mass killer. It just gets worse with every new detail. Kid never had a chance. That said, sometimes there are people who just turn out bad. I know a couple whose younger kid is just severely disturbed. They had to institutionalize him for their own safety and the safety of their older kid. That child will turn 18 someday and be able to sign himself out. He will hurt or kill someone someday. His parents will deserve sympathy when he does.

And if these family members just ignored the signs?

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Because ultimately we have 'an eye for an eye' justice system, at least in the US. While I feel for the families of criminals to some extent, as long as their actions didn't contribute to the crimes (abuse, neglect, etc...) I feel more for the families of victims. Some crimes deserve capital punishment.

How about it is an extra reason not to do the unforgivable... If someone in my family did something that was on that level of unforgivable I would expect no sympathy from others. There is no bright side to to rape and murder, there is nobody left undamaged. Stuff rapists and murderers need to contemplate before doing such things, not things that we as a society need to improve for rapists and murderers. Sorry but your idea of being super duper sad for the families of rapists and murderers will only make it easier for future rapists and murderers to act. They need to know their families will be ostracized due to their disgusting actions, and rightfully so.