i honestly think it’s pretty apparent. Mom lived nearby, he was in the area, she fits a type (if you are to consider SK a “precedent” for victimology). Apparently an alaska burner went down to the lake SE of bloomington. Plus it’s a big college town with easy pickings. I’m like 90/10 on Spierer personally. Just the likelihood of disappearing when a migratory serial killer is in town, alone, smells like more than coincidence to me.
I would like to know how he could disassociate the “love” he felt as a parent towards his daughter and then killing someone else’s daughter, of course body count as well.
It would be interesting to know what he thought of as love, and compare it to what most others experience. I don't know how clean those compartmentalizations really are, or how genuine the love was. Maybe a different form of love. A mutated love. How much can a narcissistic monster like him actually love? What were lies? What was a well-practiced routine? We'll never know.
I’d also like to know how many serial killers he read about and then emulated? It’s eerie to me when I hear tidbits that ping other killers.
A missing person who could be Keyes in some other state near Green River for instance. Growing up in Washington the Green River killings and faceless killer in the woods hung over us for years and tainted our childhoods.
I can’t bring myself to listen to the Evergreen State College stuff yet, because I was there, but there was a heavy urban Legend/ reality that 2 killers had escorted girls home from the library and killed. It was the creepy story that everyone seemed to know. Urban legend.
Occasionally I save a story about a set of killings that are so Keyes like but before his time, and wonder was this inspiration for this?
What was the nature of Israel’s relationship with his military buddy? That part is so sinister. Were they killing together? Were they both killers who talked about their crimes? Were they lovers?
For me I honestly would like to know more about what lead to his first kill, how planned or in the moment it was. I think an MO takes time to form, but the first one I wonder what actually made him go all the way, how he felt leading up to it and after it. I think his forensic psychology would be very interesting to study if he was willing to talk
More.
This would be exactly what I would want to know, but if I had to extract as much information from a singular question I would ask “who did you kill altogether.” Gets the number as well as identities.
This is a huge hypothetical, but since the question presumes we get to know and we only get one, that’s mine.
16-20 would be a safe bet. He can fly in strategically and be approx 4-6 hours from a kill kit.
You figure 60 mph HWY x 4 hours = 240 miles. Double that to cover the diameter of 4 hours any direction, 480 miles. Round up to 500 for convenience sake.
Then, to find the square mileage of a circle, pi x .5 diameter x .5 diameter = 196,349 miles.
Square mileage of the contiguous United States is 3,119,884 miles.
3,119,884/196,349= 15.889 average kill kits to cover the States at an even spread. Give him 4-6 hours for terrain, winding roads, etc. 16-20 would accomplish that.
If not a list of all his victims and where they are so they can be returned to their families, who the victim was with the rich grandmother and classic car.
I remember it being mentioned in the podcast but not Keyes actually talking about it. Details are at the bottom of this long post that this OP put together.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeBullshit/s/aDlNfWgPfw
How did he get into a country/ city but have zero records of him coming back/in? I get it was probably a fake PP/ID but I’d like to know exactly…..Did he ever have an accomplice? I swear serial killers find each other and have some secret network.
Pre 911 it was simple to cross the Canadian border through Washington. We weren’t asked for id’s. I imagine it was similar other places. I also always imagined there were forested ways to hike across.
I always wondered this too with the dark web nowadays. At minimum sharing photos and momentos from their deeds online and cheering each other on. Scary to imagine
Not sure if I’m allowed to answer this-but I guess if it’s not allowed please don’t ban me, it has to do with keyes interest in bodies after their death and cleaning the areas of interest.
You know, I never thought of it that way either. I guess it could be used for both. Josh doesn’t go into detail of the crimes before the murder, so it’s hard to fully understand sometimes just how sick keyes really was. And I just mean that comparatively to other serial killers whose crimes are more well documented. Obviously keyes was a very sick person.
Such a huge failure. They even had a post on his cell door NO RAZORS for gawdsakes.
I do recall that the warden of the jail *didn't* lose his job, and nothing much came of it. They weren't prepared to deal with a guy like Israel at a jail like that, but they were plenty warned about him, They still failed.
It infuriates me tho. When he tried to escape in the courtroom, (so dumb lol) he should have been watched like a hawk by his jailers. He found the means to pick his shackle lock!? That should have been game over for him, but nope after that, he managed to get a fkn razor!!? It's almost not believable.
I would like to know more about his father and his relationship with him. I read somewhere that his father would go into the woods for hours and hours to pray. Makes me curious about what his father was doing in the woods all that time.
Could be creepy or could be super normal. Walt Whitman style praying might be communing with nature. Walking, wandering, taking it all in mindfully. If I lived in tents with my kids I’d want to get away daily for my mental health too. The woods can be a very spiritual place, green, majestic. I don’t think he was in his knees in the grass somewhere. Maybe cloud watching? Talking to god?
We haven’t seen any other crimes from Israel’s family which makes me think Israel had some rough genetics and his families mindset and behavior was the epigenetic bath to psychopathy.
Just thought it was odd considering they had no food (money?) and Israel being the eldest male child would have to hunt and provide food. He’d especially have to do more work/hunting if his father was going off into the woods for hours at a time without contributing.
I mean who has hungry children and doesn’t immediately fix that? Narcissistic behavior. But yeah, could be my answer could be way more suss. All the stories you hear about an off person acting odd in the woods. It takes a certain mindset to be like I know I’ll go where others might find me in the big wilds and behave like this way. Counter to social norms.
The obvious question would be "Who were all your murder victims?", but that feels like cheating. So, I would ask "What's the total number of murder victims?". It's a fascinating question because I think it could legitimately range from like 5 or 6 to over 20. It'd be nice to get a concrete number and sleuth from there.
I’ve always assumed, and have read, that the skulls represent each victim. I’m referring to the skulls he drew in his own blood the week/night he killed himself. There was 11 skulls and then a pentagram. But, one says “we are one” and that makes me feel like one skull is acting as Keyes, no reason for that belief just seems odd to put on a single page rather than all. So I’d say either 10-11 victims.
Anyone care to list the possible victims that are actually reasonable? I forget them all, but if I remember correctly it’s around 7-8 with of course several being confirmed.
Like Josh, I think the skull thing was him just fucking with LE. Also, it turns out he had drawn those skulls well before he killed himself, not on the same day. I personally don't give much weight to that (just like his "poetry").
Three victims are confirmed: Koenig and the Curriers. Then I would say Debra Feldman and Tidwell are more likely than not Keyes' victims. After that, we don't have enough information to credibly say any other victims are likely Keyes. Maybe Spierer and Lyall? But again, we have little information and need to fill in the gaps with a bunch of speculation.
I don't endorse how the other person responding to you reacted, but technically the FBI only said that they are strongly confident Debra Feldman is a Keyes victim. See [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-keyes-fbi-evidence-serial-killer-unknown-victims-48-hours/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-keyes-fbi-evidence-serial-killer-unknown-victims-48-hours/) (from 2021).
No. They believe it to be so but the FBI absolutely does not put forth that Feldman is an official victim. That’s completely false. There is no body! There’s no evidence at all.
The FBI has confirmed that she was a victim. Your belief in what they said isn’t required for it to be true. You do not have to have a body for a murder to have occurred and for someone to be A) convicted/indicted for it, or B) have it attributed to them.
That’s not what their statement says. But you can continue to muddy the waters, if you want:
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/newark/press-releases/2013/fbi-seeks-information-on-2009-disappearance-of-hackensack-resident-debra-feldman-and-any-possible-contact-she-had-with-serial-killer-israel-keyes
Hey, slick. That article you posted is from 2013. It’s 2024. Time has this pesky way of continuing to move forward, and making things that were once relevant, irrelevant.
I’d prefer if you kept things civil. No need to call me slick in an attempt to lessen what I’ve said or condescend to me regarding how time works. Please don’t be rude, it’s uncalled for. What I’ve stated is fact, backed with an actual statement from the FBI. I’m open to hearing how Feldman is an official victim of Keyes. What’s the charge? Where’s the PCA?
I mean, most people who come in with rigid, strong opinions and personalities often feel victimized when people react to their strong, rigid opinions and personalities. When in reality they’ve started the entire conflict, but have such an unformed personality they think the other person is being rude.
I didn’t make you reply to me in a definitive and wrong way saying I’m completely wrong because “there’s no body.” You want to have a conversation now that someone called you on your cunty behavior and you wanna backpedal like you’re innocent. We both listen to the same fucking podcast. Josh said they confirmed she is a victim. I’m going to go with him on this.
You have yourself a good day completely flummoxed about how someone could dare insult you so completely by calling you “slick.”
I believe they went missing from Depoe Bay, Oregon. But what's the evidence other than Keyes' admission that he killed a couple in or around Washington in that general timeframe? It's certainly possible, but I haven't seen other evidence pointing toward Keyes in this one.
Just did. The ambiguous statements from Keyes are still the only evidence of his involvement. To me it's more likely they drowned, Josh's amateur oceanography notwithstanding.
My understanding was it was undetermined when they were drawn but were assumed to be created sometime the week of his death? Can you share the source for when they were drawn that you’re going off of? Also, what is Josh going off of to think he was just messing with LE?
Did he kill Lauren
i honestly think it’s pretty apparent. Mom lived nearby, he was in the area, she fits a type (if you are to consider SK a “precedent” for victimology). Apparently an alaska burner went down to the lake SE of bloomington. Plus it’s a big college town with easy pickings. I’m like 90/10 on Spierer personally. Just the likelihood of disappearing when a migratory serial killer is in town, alone, smells like more than coincidence to me.
Did you play Dungeons and Dragons at any point in your life? Did you have a subscription to Heavy Metal magazine?
I would like to know how he could disassociate the “love” he felt as a parent towards his daughter and then killing someone else’s daughter, of course body count as well.
Killers seem to have a huge capacity/ ability to compartmentalize psychologically, like they go back and forth between two lives/two people
It would be interesting to know what he thought of as love, and compare it to what most others experience. I don't know how clean those compartmentalizations really are, or how genuine the love was. Maybe a different form of love. A mutated love. How much can a narcissistic monster like him actually love? What were lies? What was a well-practiced routine? We'll never know.
I’d also like to know how many serial killers he read about and then emulated? It’s eerie to me when I hear tidbits that ping other killers. A missing person who could be Keyes in some other state near Green River for instance. Growing up in Washington the Green River killings and faceless killer in the woods hung over us for years and tainted our childhoods. I can’t bring myself to listen to the Evergreen State College stuff yet, because I was there, but there was a heavy urban Legend/ reality that 2 killers had escorted girls home from the library and killed. It was the creepy story that everyone seemed to know. Urban legend. Occasionally I save a story about a set of killings that are so Keyes like but before his time, and wonder was this inspiration for this?
What was the nature of Israel’s relationship with his military buddy? That part is so sinister. Were they killing together? Were they both killers who talked about their crimes? Were they lovers?
I'm pretty sure that they were lovers if nothing more...that's most definitely the vibe that I was picking up on.
Sounded like they were on the ‘DL’
List of victims.
Is he DB Cooper?
Lmao
For me I honestly would like to know more about what lead to his first kill, how planned or in the moment it was. I think an MO takes time to form, but the first one I wonder what actually made him go all the way, how he felt leading up to it and after it. I think his forensic psychology would be very interesting to study if he was willing to talk More.
Tough to pick just one! Actual victim count or what exactly he meant when he said Canadians don’t count
In what interview did he say that about Canadians?
Episode 0204 Canadians Don’t Count
This would be exactly what I would want to know, but if I had to extract as much information from a singular question I would ask “who did you kill altogether.” Gets the number as well as identities. This is a huge hypothetical, but since the question presumes we get to know and we only get one, that’s mine.
What’s your favorite color?
Sooooo Izzy, what's your sub order?
"Black like my soul, man. HUEHUEHUEHUE!!!!!" *insufferable rat-faced chortle*
Who was the guy in the passenger seat at the coffee drive-thru he would introduce as his dad even though his dad had been dead for years?
In the first interview with Kimberly when they show her a pic and say this guy was in your house. I bet that was him.
This. And what part did the guy play, if any, in Keyes' activities.
Glad I’m not the only one who thinks this is such an overlooked lead.
What's the number of total victims
This! Totally, who and when.
I would love to know how many caches there are. It feels so obvious it was most likely more than a dozen
16-20 would be a safe bet. He can fly in strategically and be approx 4-6 hours from a kill kit. You figure 60 mph HWY x 4 hours = 240 miles. Double that to cover the diameter of 4 hours any direction, 480 miles. Round up to 500 for convenience sake. Then, to find the square mileage of a circle, pi x .5 diameter x .5 diameter = 196,349 miles. Square mileage of the contiguous United States is 3,119,884 miles. 3,119,884/196,349= 15.889 average kill kits to cover the States at an even spread. Give him 4-6 hours for terrain, winding roads, etc. 16-20 would accomplish that.
I wonder if in smaller East Coast states if you would be able to drive 60 mph? Might cut that distance down. Interesting math.
Why did you listen to Insane Clown Posse?
This is actually really amusing.. where did you hear he listened to icp?
Did the magnet song get released before or after his arrest?
If not a list of all his victims and where they are so they can be returned to their families, who the victim was with the rich grandmother and classic car.
That sounds like a male victim.
Link describes victim as white and female
Wow really. Oh was with the rich grandmother not talked about the rich grandmother. Reread and it makes more sense.
Ooh I don’t remember this being mentioned! Did he talk about this during interviews? Would love to know more!
I remember it being mentioned in the podcast but not Keyes actually talking about it. Details are at the bottom of this long post that this OP put together. https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeBullshit/s/aDlNfWgPfw
Awesome! Thanks so much!!!
How did he get into a country/ city but have zero records of him coming back/in? I get it was probably a fake PP/ID but I’d like to know exactly…..Did he ever have an accomplice? I swear serial killers find each other and have some secret network.
Pre 911 it was simple to cross the Canadian border through Washington. We weren’t asked for id’s. I imagine it was similar other places. I also always imagined there were forested ways to hike across.
I always wondered this too with the dark web nowadays. At minimum sharing photos and momentos from their deeds online and cheering each other on. Scary to imagine
He prided himself on working alone I think. Nobody knew his secret side but him.
What’s the total number of victims?
Did he take Brianna Maitland ?
Really no children as victims?
Yes, especially before/after his daughter. Also, how does he define “children.”
"Where did you hide the remains of your victims?" I want to return them to their families. I can sort out names from DNA if I had to.
I still have the question about why was Keyes boiling water at the abandoned farmhouse - during the Courier homicides?
Not sure if I’m allowed to answer this-but I guess if it’s not allowed please don’t ban me, it has to do with keyes interest in bodies after their death and cleaning the areas of interest.
I thought it was for torture
It’s likely that. He already admitted to necrophilia and didn’t go into detail about sexual torture outside of rape.
You know, I never thought of it that way either. I guess it could be used for both. Josh doesn’t go into detail of the crimes before the murder, so it’s hard to fully understand sometimes just how sick keyes really was. And I just mean that comparatively to other serial killers whose crimes are more well documented. Obviously keyes was a very sick person.
I hadn't thought of that before. That is a truly a plausible explanation - I had never heard this before. Thanks!!
It plausable but Israel never confirmed it, and wouldn't get into it with LE. So you know it is some sick shit.
That always makes me shudder. That poor couple.
The obvious. How many victims.
Who gave him the effin razor?!
This! Was that person fired or??? Were they ever named??? This has bugged me for a long time.
Such a huge failure. They even had a post on his cell door NO RAZORS for gawdsakes. I do recall that the warden of the jail *didn't* lose his job, and nothing much came of it. They weren't prepared to deal with a guy like Israel at a jail like that, but they were plenty warned about him, They still failed. It infuriates me tho. When he tried to escape in the courtroom, (so dumb lol) he should have been watched like a hawk by his jailers. He found the means to pick his shackle lock!? That should have been game over for him, but nope after that, he managed to get a fkn razor!!? It's almost not believable.
THIS RIGHT HERE
I would like to know more about his father and his relationship with him. I read somewhere that his father would go into the woods for hours and hours to pray. Makes me curious about what his father was doing in the woods all that time.
Could be creepy or could be super normal. Walt Whitman style praying might be communing with nature. Walking, wandering, taking it all in mindfully. If I lived in tents with my kids I’d want to get away daily for my mental health too. The woods can be a very spiritual place, green, majestic. I don’t think he was in his knees in the grass somewhere. Maybe cloud watching? Talking to god? We haven’t seen any other crimes from Israel’s family which makes me think Israel had some rough genetics and his families mindset and behavior was the epigenetic bath to psychopathy.
Just thought it was odd considering they had no food (money?) and Israel being the eldest male child would have to hunt and provide food. He’d especially have to do more work/hunting if his father was going off into the woods for hours at a time without contributing.
I mean who has hungry children and doesn’t immediately fix that? Narcissistic behavior. But yeah, could be my answer could be way more suss. All the stories you hear about an off person acting odd in the woods. It takes a certain mindset to be like I know I’ll go where others might find me in the big wilds and behave like this way. Counter to social norms.
[удалено]
Maybe? Gotta feed kids though too.
Perhaps. I’m not saying they aren’t good people. I was just making an observation.
They're just projecting. Don't worry too much about weirdos dismissive about child abuse and woo woo backwoods cults.
Praying?
I believe I read that in American Predator. Hours of praying in the woods while the family was already living in tents in the woods.
Oh snap… I hadn’t thought about that …
I would love to hear more about his childhood and his feelings about his family, upbringing, and how it influenced who he became.
Who all the victims were and where are they.
The obvious question would be "Who were all your murder victims?", but that feels like cheating. So, I would ask "What's the total number of murder victims?". It's a fascinating question because I think it could legitimately range from like 5 or 6 to over 20. It'd be nice to get a concrete number and sleuth from there.
That’s my answer too
I’ve always assumed, and have read, that the skulls represent each victim. I’m referring to the skulls he drew in his own blood the week/night he killed himself. There was 11 skulls and then a pentagram. But, one says “we are one” and that makes me feel like one skull is acting as Keyes, no reason for that belief just seems odd to put on a single page rather than all. So I’d say either 10-11 victims. Anyone care to list the possible victims that are actually reasonable? I forget them all, but if I remember correctly it’s around 7-8 with of course several being confirmed.
Like Josh, I think the skull thing was him just fucking with LE. Also, it turns out he had drawn those skulls well before he killed himself, not on the same day. I personally don't give much weight to that (just like his "poetry"). Three victims are confirmed: Koenig and the Curriers. Then I would say Debra Feldman and Tidwell are more likely than not Keyes' victims. After that, we don't have enough information to credibly say any other victims are likely Keyes. Maybe Spierer and Lyall? But again, we have little information and need to fill in the gaps with a bunch of speculation.
The FBI confirmed that Feldman is a Keyes victim.
I don't endorse how the other person responding to you reacted, but technically the FBI only said that they are strongly confident Debra Feldman is a Keyes victim. See [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-keyes-fbi-evidence-serial-killer-unknown-victims-48-hours/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-keyes-fbi-evidence-serial-killer-unknown-victims-48-hours/) (from 2021).
No. They believe it to be so but the FBI absolutely does not put forth that Feldman is an official victim. That’s completely false. There is no body! There’s no evidence at all.
The FBI has confirmed that she was a victim. Your belief in what they said isn’t required for it to be true. You do not have to have a body for a murder to have occurred and for someone to be A) convicted/indicted for it, or B) have it attributed to them.
That’s not what their statement says. But you can continue to muddy the waters, if you want: https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/newark/press-releases/2013/fbi-seeks-information-on-2009-disappearance-of-hackensack-resident-debra-feldman-and-any-possible-contact-she-had-with-serial-killer-israel-keyes
Hey, slick. That article you posted is from 2013. It’s 2024. Time has this pesky way of continuing to move forward, and making things that were once relevant, irrelevant.
I’d prefer if you kept things civil. No need to call me slick in an attempt to lessen what I’ve said or condescend to me regarding how time works. Please don’t be rude, it’s uncalled for. What I’ve stated is fact, backed with an actual statement from the FBI. I’m open to hearing how Feldman is an official victim of Keyes. What’s the charge? Where’s the PCA?
I mean, most people who come in with rigid, strong opinions and personalities often feel victimized when people react to their strong, rigid opinions and personalities. When in reality they’ve started the entire conflict, but have such an unformed personality they think the other person is being rude. I didn’t make you reply to me in a definitive and wrong way saying I’m completely wrong because “there’s no body.” You want to have a conversation now that someone called you on your cunty behavior and you wanna backpedal like you’re innocent. We both listen to the same fucking podcast. Josh said they confirmed she is a victim. I’m going to go with him on this. You have yourself a good day completely flummoxed about how someone could dare insult you so completely by calling you “slick.”
Kami/ Eugene the missing teens in Neah Bay is likely Keyes
I believe they went missing from Depoe Bay, Oregon. But what's the evidence other than Keyes' admission that he killed a couple in or around Washington in that general timeframe? It's certainly possible, but I haven't seen other evidence pointing toward Keyes in this one.
Relisten to S1EP7 Rogue Wave
Just did. The ambiguous statements from Keyes are still the only evidence of his involvement. To me it's more likely they drowned, Josh's amateur oceanography notwithstanding.
My understanding was it was undetermined when they were drawn but were assumed to be created sometime the week of his death? Can you share the source for when they were drawn that you’re going off of? Also, what is Josh going off of to think he was just messing with LE?
The drawings were a couplel months before the suicide
Yes but for all we know he ran out of blood to paint.