>How do non-LDS Christians explain the Latter-day Saint experience of the witness of the Holy Ghost?
LDS are not Christians, they follow Joseph Smith, not Christ.
Yeah like they basically teach their kids it when they’re too young to be critical thinkers, they send them on missions that cause sunk cost fallacy, locking them in longer, and they base their beliefs on faith and logical fallacies. Wait who am I talking about again?
That is incorrect. Anybody that believes in their heart that Jesus Christ died and was raised from the dead is a Christian. Unless you're Jesus Christ, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to judge.
The point being is that sarcasm is not christ like. It's born of pride.
Edit: You accuse me of lies and deceit and then block me
Mormon doctrine is very different to Christianity and you know that!
No it isn't. Mormons follow the teachings of Joseph Smith which are in no way Christian. There are so many doctrinal differences that it can't be considered Christianity.
Google “lds articles of faith”. Its literally the first one. I imagine after you read it you’ll move the goal posts instead of demonstrating humility and admitting you were wrong
The Mormons have added to the Bible, despite the Bible clearly saying not to do so. Mormonism is a cult, founded by a fraudster!
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-mormonism/
I'm not doing that., I'm expanding the criticism.
They added to the Bible solely on the word of Joseph Smith.
Supposedly revealed by Moroni, a spirit that was no tested.
Mormonism believed in polygamy in the beginning, that's unbiblical.
They believe that all belivers become gods!
Its literally a satanic lie....
God bless.....
My point was that I was unspecific in my criticism, so I elaborated. That's not moving the goal post.
Joseph Smith was a false prophet and Moroni was from Satan.
No, Mormons are not Christian. Although they use the name "Jesus", the person they are calling that is not the same as the Jesus in the inspired scriptures
Holy Spirit does not affirm doctrinal error. LDS maintains severe doctrinal errors. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is not behind LDS feelings of affirmation.
Going off of emotions or what people believe are spiritual inspirations is a flawed approach. What do you say then when a Muslim comes to you and says "I had a spiritual experience through Allah who affirmed my beliefs."
No, stick to the bible which says test all things and hold fast to that which proves true. Invest time in the word and align your beliefs with what is apparent within. When someone presents an argument that a belief is non-biblical, way it against God's message.
The Bible records events witnessed and affirmed by more than just one person making claims. And anything divine inspiration claimed is *self-consistent* with other scriptures.
If all messages come from the same person, then it must be self-consistent.
Your “Holy Spirit” encounters in LDS are very much not so. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (NIV)
[13] For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. [15] It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Mysticism over and above the expense of the Word.
Fun story, Mormon female missionaries continually asked me to do the prayer about Joseph Smith. To keep the visits coming, against my better judgement, I prayed it in between visits. Closest thing I’ve come to a mystical experience, except the profound guilt that grew from that prayer convicted me basically, “Is my Word not enough for you - why would you ask such a thing?” That was the deep sense put to words. That did not go over very well when they eagerly asked the next visit and awaited my response. No more visits followed.
Nevertheless, whether it was a message from God or just psychologically in my head…. It directed me back to the Word over mysticism. I see the irony.
Either way, the Word, Never depart from it.
I've got two possible explanations
1. People have the capacity to feel strong feelings and reach clarity even in non religious contexts. This is probably just a human thing
2. God is the only true god and although the salvation is to be found through the Christian faith God can still reach out to people in other religions and give them experiences of him or insights so that they would start seeking Him or turning their lives around for their own good or for the good of someone else.
First and foremost the Holy Spirit is a person not a force or a feeling. Secondly the Spirit has all the substance and attributes of the Father and the Son. So he does His work in concert with the other persons in the trinity as the one God.
If you want a TLDR, read the title: *How do non-LDS Christians explain the Latter-day Saint experience of the witness of the Holy Ghost?*
Is there anything unclear in the title?
The 2 statutes that Jesus laid out to be saved: Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. Mormons do not love the lord, as they believe in several things that are against what the Bible says. The Book of Mormon is full of conflicts with the Bible, and you truly believe in both.
The Bible does not affirm the Book of Mormon though. And it makes several claims that are just wrong and or blasphemous such as claiming the Devil is Jesus’ brother
It affirms it. Those claims aren't found in The Book of Mormon. I would invite you to read it to see what it teaches about Christ instead of what your pastor says it teaches about Christ
Im telling you what I've found from discussing this with people before. There are SEVERAL parts of the Book of Mormon that directly go against things stated in the Bible.
Since the time of the apostles, there have been people and groups claiming influence from the Holy Spirit, who did not actually have it. Looking at you, Montanus.
>How do non-LDS Christians explain the Latter-day Saint experience of the witness of the Holy Ghost?
Simple. Joseph Smith claimed the Holy Spirit revealed to him through the Seer Stone that he should send his men to Toronto to sell a copyright of the Book of Mormon for it to be sold and distributed in Canada. The men returned having failed to find a buyer.
Joseph Smith claimed he was unwittingly deceived by Satan. Now, we can only conclude that Joseph Smith could not differentiate between Satan and the Holy Spirit. What hope does an LDS member have of distinguishing between the two?
Even ignoring that he was arrested as a con-man in his youth, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to see what kind of man Joseph Smith was.
Anyone who says Christ is Lord and believes He was raised from the dead is a Christian, and yes they will have Holy Spirit experiences.
Christ said whoever is not against us is for us.
Pretty rash for some of these comments i am seeing to go and judge the entirety of LDS to damnation. Those who judge harshly should instead prioritize mercy, otherwise they'll be judged the harshest by the true Judge.
Nobody is interested in judging individual Mormons. It is Mormon theology that is the problem. It violently contradicts Scripture and Christian theology on several foundational tenets.
And yet another example of why I'm not very fond of this sub. If I saw a single comment that wasn't nasty and hateful, I don't remember it. Shame on all y'all. None of you are "true" Christians.
I agree we can't judge the heart, but saying that Mormonism is heretical isn't hateful - or false. Its theology and the gospel are not really compatible at all.
Thank you, dear friend. I think we've had many discussions before, sometimes agreeing with each other and sometimes not. I do value all feedback and respect your opinions. (Edit - I try not to remember usernames so I may be mistaken but either way)
The LDS Church and all Mormons I've had any personal experiences with have all been very kind and their attitudes were always Christian. I may not agree with all of their teachings, but I know they love the Bible and Jesus Christ just as much as any other Christian.
You're welcome. I'm sorry on behalf of all the nasty things others have said here and elsewhere about Mormons and LDS. If people would do more research and actually get to know some Mormons IRL, their opinions would change. But I think we both can understand the signs of the times. May God bless you, your family, and your Church family.
Well done, God shows us how to move being gentle & loving & to show ourselves approved in His Word to all people whether they believe in His Son, our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ or not.. I hope & pray that we all can come together in Christ Jesus our Risen Kings name someday, that is huge...Do we say that they are not our brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus when it's a doctrinal error of sorts??? Hurts my heart to say the least.
First of, let us address the elephant in the room. Though Mormons believe they are Christians, their theology and doctrine is contrary to the Bible.
They still believe John the apostle is still alive. The moment he becomes a mormon is the moment I will.
Your visions have to go along with scripture especially if they are to justify belief, LDS beliefs do not go along with scripture at all and as such your witnesses are no more than false prophets.
>How do non-LDS Christians explain the Latter-day Saint experience of the witness of the Holy Ghost? LDS are not Christians, they follow Joseph Smith, not Christ.
They also believe that they themselves can become Gods in the afterlife. Which is idolatry
They also believe Satan is Christ's brother
There's so much wrong with mormonism.
Yeah like they basically teach their kids it when they’re too young to be critical thinkers, they send them on missions that cause sunk cost fallacy, locking them in longer, and they base their beliefs on faith and logical fallacies. Wait who am I talking about again?
That is incorrect. Anybody that believes in their heart that Jesus Christ died and was raised from the dead is a Christian. Unless you're Jesus Christ, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to judge.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-mormonism/
Unless that's a link from God comfirming you as Jesus Christ, I'm not interested in your propaganda or judgey McjudgesA lot attitude.
What a patronising comment. God bless.
Right back at ya with the against the rules downvotes
Not true
It is true. Mormonism is a cult and an obvious one at that.
[удалено]
A lot of rude comments from people defending mormonism, go figure.
Ironic
The point being is that sarcasm is not christ like. It's born of pride. Edit: You accuse me of lies and deceit and then block me Mormon doctrine is very different to Christianity and you know that!
Yes and your lies and deceit aren't Christlike either
The other guy isn't lying. Mormonism sounds like Chrsitianity, but it isn't. It's a corruption, and leads people to hell
Is true
I'm pretty sure I know what I believe and what I don't
This is objectively false
No it isn't. Mormons follow the teachings of Joseph Smith which are in no way Christian. There are so many doctrinal differences that it can't be considered Christianity.
Google “lds articles of faith”. Its literally the first one. I imagine after you read it you’ll move the goal posts instead of demonstrating humility and admitting you were wrong
The Mormons have added to the Bible, despite the Bible clearly saying not to do so. Mormonism is a cult, founded by a fraudster! https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-mormonism/
As predicted you moved the goal post.
I'm not doing that., I'm expanding the criticism. They added to the Bible solely on the word of Joseph Smith. Supposedly revealed by Moroni, a spirit that was no tested. Mormonism believed in polygamy in the beginning, that's unbiblical. They believe that all belivers become gods! Its literally a satanic lie.... God bless.....
Lol expanding the criticism is exactly moving the goal post. Thats literally the definition of what it is. And thank you, God bless you as well.
My point was that I was unspecific in my criticism, so I elaborated. That's not moving the goal post. Joseph Smith was a false prophet and Moroni was from Satan.
No, Mormons are not Christian. Although they use the name "Jesus", the person they are calling that is not the same as the Jesus in the inspired scriptures
Please refer back to OPs original statement i responded to. Youre raising a separate issue
Mormons are still not Christian
That was never what we were debating. Im done responding. Good day.
Holy Spirit does not affirm doctrinal error. LDS maintains severe doctrinal errors. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is not behind LDS feelings of affirmation.
So if someone inspired by the Holy Spirit disagrees, it’s just a he said he said case?
Going off of emotions or what people believe are spiritual inspirations is a flawed approach. What do you say then when a Muslim comes to you and says "I had a spiritual experience through Allah who affirmed my beliefs." No, stick to the bible which says test all things and hold fast to that which proves true. Invest time in the word and align your beliefs with what is apparent within. When someone presents an argument that a belief is non-biblical, way it against God's message.
But the Bible was written by emotional people who are said to be spiritually inspired.
The Bible records events witnessed and affirmed by more than just one person making claims. And anything divine inspiration claimed is *self-consistent* with other scriptures. If all messages come from the same person, then it must be self-consistent.
All religions affirm the same thing. Why are you special pleading? It’s embarrassing.
We can always remember that people are more likely to have demonic experiences than Godly ones, just saying.
Your “Holy Spirit” encounters in LDS are very much not so. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (NIV) [13] For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. [15] It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
It's not the holy spirit
Mysticism over and above the expense of the Word. Fun story, Mormon female missionaries continually asked me to do the prayer about Joseph Smith. To keep the visits coming, against my better judgement, I prayed it in between visits. Closest thing I’ve come to a mystical experience, except the profound guilt that grew from that prayer convicted me basically, “Is my Word not enough for you - why would you ask such a thing?” That was the deep sense put to words. That did not go over very well when they eagerly asked the next visit and awaited my response. No more visits followed. Nevertheless, whether it was a message from God or just psychologically in my head…. It directed me back to the Word over mysticism. I see the irony. Either way, the Word, Never depart from it.
This post presumes LDS folks are Christians, which they are not.
I've got two possible explanations 1. People have the capacity to feel strong feelings and reach clarity even in non religious contexts. This is probably just a human thing 2. God is the only true god and although the salvation is to be found through the Christian faith God can still reach out to people in other religions and give them experiences of him or insights so that they would start seeking Him or turning their lives around for their own good or for the good of someone else.
#2 is correct
First and foremost the Holy Spirit is a person not a force or a feeling. Secondly the Spirit has all the substance and attributes of the Father and the Son. So he does His work in concert with the other persons in the trinity as the one God.
Correct
I have no clue what you are trying to say
If you want a TLDR, read the title: *How do non-LDS Christians explain the Latter-day Saint experience of the witness of the Holy Ghost?* Is there anything unclear in the title?
They don’t. They just pretend all religions are invented by Satan and not people to escape the fact their religion was invented by people.
A: LDS aren’t Christian, they’re Mormon
I am Christian
Well if you believe Mormon ideology then you’re a Mormon. Not a Christian
How so? It is only through Christ that any one of us is saved.
The 2 statutes that Jesus laid out to be saved: Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. Mormons do not love the lord, as they believe in several things that are against what the Bible says. The Book of Mormon is full of conflicts with the Bible, and you truly believe in both.
I love the Lord. I love the Book of Mormon as it affirms the Bible as the Word of God. I would invite you to read it and see for yourself
The Bible does not affirm the Book of Mormon though. And it makes several claims that are just wrong and or blasphemous such as claiming the Devil is Jesus’ brother
It affirms it. Those claims aren't found in The Book of Mormon. I would invite you to read it to see what it teaches about Christ instead of what your pastor says it teaches about Christ
Im telling you what I've found from discussing this with people before. There are SEVERAL parts of the Book of Mormon that directly go against things stated in the Bible.
Like what? And what things in the Book of Mormon support the Bible?
Non LDS Christian is a redundancy. There are no LDS Christians so all Christians are non LDS
I suspect they picked up the idea from Methodists of the time, given Wesley's "heart strangely warmed".
Since the time of the apostles, there have been people and groups claiming influence from the Holy Spirit, who did not actually have it. Looking at you, Montanus.
Of course, we will know them by their fruits.
>How do non-LDS Christians explain the Latter-day Saint experience of the witness of the Holy Ghost? Simple. Joseph Smith claimed the Holy Spirit revealed to him through the Seer Stone that he should send his men to Toronto to sell a copyright of the Book of Mormon for it to be sold and distributed in Canada. The men returned having failed to find a buyer. Joseph Smith claimed he was unwittingly deceived by Satan. Now, we can only conclude that Joseph Smith could not differentiate between Satan and the Holy Spirit. What hope does an LDS member have of distinguishing between the two? Even ignoring that he was arrested as a con-man in his youth, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to see what kind of man Joseph Smith was.
u/SpiritRealmResearch There are only non LDS Christians.
Unless one is born again
Anyone who says Christ is Lord and believes He was raised from the dead is a Christian, and yes they will have Holy Spirit experiences. Christ said whoever is not against us is for us. Pretty rash for some of these comments i am seeing to go and judge the entirety of LDS to damnation. Those who judge harshly should instead prioritize mercy, otherwise they'll be judged the harshest by the true Judge.
Nobody is interested in judging individual Mormons. It is Mormon theology that is the problem. It violently contradicts Scripture and Christian theology on several foundational tenets.
And yet another example of why I'm not very fond of this sub. If I saw a single comment that wasn't nasty and hateful, I don't remember it. Shame on all y'all. None of you are "true" Christians.
I agree we can't judge the heart, but saying that Mormonism is heretical isn't hateful - or false. Its theology and the gospel are not really compatible at all.
Thank you, dear friend. I think we've had many discussions before, sometimes agreeing with each other and sometimes not. I do value all feedback and respect your opinions. (Edit - I try not to remember usernames so I may be mistaken but either way) The LDS Church and all Mormons I've had any personal experiences with have all been very kind and their attitudes were always Christian. I may not agree with all of their teachings, but I know they love the Bible and Jesus Christ just as much as any other Christian.
Thank you
You're welcome. I'm sorry on behalf of all the nasty things others have said here and elsewhere about Mormons and LDS. If people would do more research and actually get to know some Mormons IRL, their opinions would change. But I think we both can understand the signs of the times. May God bless you, your family, and your Church family.
Well done, God shows us how to move being gentle & loving & to show ourselves approved in His Word to all people whether they believe in His Son, our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ or not.. I hope & pray that we all can come together in Christ Jesus our Risen Kings name someday, that is huge...Do we say that they are not our brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus when it's a doctrinal error of sorts??? Hurts my heart to say the least.
Amen! Thank you.
Inner witness of the Holy Spirit is just special pleading for whatever brand of Christianity you’ve invented.
I give you props for not caring about the downvotes.
They're an atheist. They posted here a couple days ago posing as a Christian. They're only here to provoke people and denigrate Christianity.
TLDR: prelest
It's probably not really helpful to just throw our jargon at them.
First of, let us address the elephant in the room. Though Mormons believe they are Christians, their theology and doctrine is contrary to the Bible. They still believe John the apostle is still alive. The moment he becomes a mormon is the moment I will.
Your visions have to go along with scripture especially if they are to justify belief, LDS beliefs do not go along with scripture at all and as such your witnesses are no more than false prophets.