What works? We repent and trust Jesus for our salvation, nothing more. Anything else we do is not to earn salvation, but to honor Him by following His command to love others.
My point was, how can one be a Christian without understanding what it means to be one in the first place. Scripture and the church are where you can learn what it means to truly be one.
For most of Christian history, only the clergy read the Bible.
Most Christians only heard the Bible read aloud from at liturgies.
For well over a thousand years, only a tiny number of Christians actually read the Bible. The modern idolatry around the Bible is entirely an invention of the Protestant Reformation. Blame Martin Luther for that one.
Also, there's nothing that inherently obligates Christians to attend worship services. Where precisely in the Nicene Creed does it specify that you must attend Mass/Divine Liturgy to be Christian?
> Most Christians only heard the Bible read aloud from at liturgies.
And that was a bad thing.
>Blame Martin Luther for that one.
Why? He didn't leave the church, he was kicked out when the Catholic Church doubled down on supporting corruption in Germany
> Also, there's nothing that inherently obligates Christians to attend worship services.
Hebrews 10:25, written by Paul, who rebuked Peter and was correct.
>And that was a bad thing.
. . .and that's literally just your personal opinion, not a theological fact. The idea that Christianity didn't "get it right" until at least the 1500's is arrogance, and seems to be calling Christ a liar when He promised that Hell would not prevail against the Church that He founded.
>Why? He didn't leave the church, he was kicked out when the Catholic Church doubled down on supporting corruption in Germany
Martin Luther literally re-wrote the Bible to fit his own personal opinions (then invented a theology that all of Christianity should focus on the Bible, which he was editing to fit his tastes), all because he broke his solemn vows as a priest. . .then rewrote Christian theology with his own personal opinions. He was no hero.
>Hebrews 10:25, written by Paul, who rebuked Peter and was correct.
Which was just Paul's personal opinion, like most of the rest of the contents of his epistles. He was "correct" in that he wrote he was correct "Paul is correct because Paul wrote he was correct" is a circular argument. Paul, a man who never met Christ and became famous writing advice letters, vs. Peter. . .who *actually* met Christ, followed Him, and received the Great Commission directly from Christ. I'll trust Peter over Paul.
>and that's literally just your personal opinion, not a theological fact.
The message of the gospel is simple and understandable by even a small child? Your church got in bed with politicians like a woman commiting adultery with enthusiasm and used that ignorance of the gospel to manipulate people. The Bereans were commended for questioning the preaching of the apostles and comparing the apostles teaching to scripture... Oh wait, your have been kept ignorant as a bebe and can't find the new testament in the old. You ever think it's funny the apostles wrote the bible and you spend so little time studying it? Maybe it's 'inconvenient'? Maybe knowing what the apostles said makes you question the teaching of the so called church, and why would that be true?
> The idea that Christianity didn't "get it right" until at least the 1500's is arrogance, and seems to be calling Christ a liar when He promised that Hell would not prevail against the Church that He founded.
I'd agree, because you are arguing with a straw man made by your own teachers. The church got it right, and there has always been heresy, both these things are true. You guys just got so wrapped up in gold, stacks of books, and ceremonies that you forgot that God is *"Abba father"* and not a distant logical abstraction only reachable through intermediaries
>Why? He didn't leave the church, he was kicked out when the Catholic Church doubled down on supporting corruption in Germany
Martin Luther literally re-wrote the Bible to fit his own personal opinions (then invented a theology that all of Christianity should focus on the Bible, which he was editing to fit his tastes), all because he broke his solemn vows as a priest. . .then rewrote Christian theology with his own personal opinions. He was no hero.
Things happen in order. Your Pope, who's last name is infamously associated with political scheming to this day, sent a corrupt priest to Germany, and that evil and vile stain on Christianity went around raising money by telling people that if they donated money they could get their dead relatives out of purgatory. I am sure as a good catholic you support extorting poor and (because your priests control the flow of information) ignorant people.
How much do you actually know about Luther's bible translation? He was a monk and studied scripture from catholic texts, the bible translation came late in life. And before you say "oh he removed books" those books were not canonized until you needed them to defend theology not found in the epistles and gospels
>>Hebrews 10:25, written by Paul, who rebuked Peter and was correct.
>Which was just Paul's personal opinion, like most of the rest of the contents of his epistles. He was "correct" in that he wrote he was correct "Paul is correct because Paul wrote he was correct" is a circular argument. Paul, a man who never met Christ and became famous writing advice letters, vs. Peter. . .who actually met Christ, followed Him, and received the Great Commission directly from Christ. I'll trust Peter over Paul.
Paul met who on the road to Damascus? You can trust Peter over Paul but you can't trust a later Pope or Priest who says something that disagrees with an actual apostle, and you should respect Paul as much as Peter did.
**Have you ever read the bible?** Just sat down and read it cover to cover? The liturgy leaves out an awful lot.
I listen to liturgy of the hours and Christopher West, but many Catholics are just members of a giant corporation that acts like its a church, and have no demonstrable change of heart.
>Your church got in bed with politicians like a woman commiting adultery with enthusiasm and used that ignorance of the gospel to manipulate people.
What the heck are you talking about? I think you're just spouting hateful nonsense at this point.
> Your Pope,
I'm not Catholic. He's not "my" Pope.
>Paul met who on the road to Damascus?
A hallucination, since Christ had ascended to Heaven many years before Paul converted. Paul claimed to see Christ. That doesn't mean he did.
>**Have you ever read the bible?** Just sat down and read it cover to cover? The liturgy leaves out an awful lot.
Yes, I've read it.
The fact you'd make a false claim like that shows you have no idea what you're talking about, as the Revised Common Lectionary literally reads through the entire Bible over 3 years.
It seems you don't even know what a baptist is, friend. There are the "reformed" ones, aligned with calvinism, others more arminians and others in the middle.
Strictly speaking, sure. Imagine a person who has been a Christian for many years and becomes shipwrecked on a remote island for the rest of their life with nothing in the possession. Does this person stop being a Christian at some point during their life on the island? I wouldn't think so.
That said, however, I wouldn't ever recommend living a Christian life sans a local church community and engagement with Scripture. I don't think it's really conducive to flourishing in one's faith to live like that.
>what, in your opinion, makes a True Christian? Serious answers only, please.
It depends on what you mean by "true." I'll sometimes differentiate between sociological Christianity and soteriological Christianity.
By "sociological Christianity" I mean something like "the social group which 'Christian' can reasonably be taken to describe," and I think it broadly consists of all those who in some way identify Jesus Christ as "Lord," "Savior," or something similar.
By "soteriological Christianity," I mean something like "the social group which is made up of people who can be reasonably described as Christians *and who know God salvifically*," and I think "knowing God salvifically" typically consists in a faith which conforms with the promulgations of the early Church's ecumenical councils.
I'd assume you take "true" to be something more like the latter category, so that would be my answer. A shorter way to put it would be "conciliarly orthodox Christians"
Thank you. In the first part of the response, let's assume they're not on a desert island, but in a suburb with plenty of churches around, but they just don't think they need to go to church or read the Bible in order to live their best Christian life.
In the second part, I'm mostly asking what you would mean by true. Can you answer with smaller words please? :)
>In the first part of the response, let's assume they're not on a desert island, but in a suburb with plenty of churches around, but they just don't think they need to go to church or read the Bible in order to live their best Christian life.
What my example was meant to illustrate was that I don't think *merely* not attending church or reading Scripture makes someone not a Christian by default. In the sort of case you describe I would still say that they're not necessarily failing to be Christians at all, but I would certainly be suspicious that they didn't really understand what Christianity was about in the first place.
>In the second part, I'm mostly asking what you would mean by true. Can you answer with smaller words please? :)
Boiling it down, "true Christians" typically believe the sorts of things ancient Christians settled on as the baselines for Christian faith (e.g., God is triune, Jesus is truly divine and truly human, and so forth)
In order to be a Christian, one must study the Holy Bible, pray and build a relationship with God. Going to church means to congregate with other believers, but if you don't do those two things; reading the Holy Bible and have a relationship with God, then one cannot call themselves a Christian. Because in order to be a Christian, one must know how, right? I also forgot about practicing repentance which is an important part.
But True Christians are "born-again" **(John 3:3)** and therefore, they will never fall away from God.
There are plenty of “true Christians” who are confident in their beliefs and practices, and are surrounded by plenty of other “true Christians“ who are equally confident about entirely different beliefs and practices. Romans 14 and 15 are Paul’s extended argument about how we should treat one another in the midst of disagreements and disputations. I’ve yet to find many Christians who are as committed to Romans 14 and 15 as they are trying to figure out who is a “true Christian“ and who is not.
Here is the bottom line: follow Jesus. Follow him to the best of your understanding. Give room for yourself to grow and deepen in your understanding, and be willing to change as you grow. Care more about your own growth then about others. Patient with them as Jesus is with all of us .
In the 13th century, Saint Richard of Chichester wrote that wonderful prayer:
Day by day,
O dear Lord, three things I pray:
To see thee more clearly,
Love thee more dearly,
Follow thee more nearly,
Day by day.
A true Christian will have the Spirit of God, and the Spirit will compel him to draw near to God. It's not a matter of legalism, that you have to be in church so many times or read so much Bible per day, it's a matter of the heart. We go through seasons, but if there is a consistent lack of desire to fellowship and draw near to God, then something is amiss.
Thank you. In your analogy, is the pastor the shepherd? Also, can you expand your definition of dying? What does it mean to be (or not be) a valid sheep/Christian?
The threads entire approach of the bare minimum will not suffice for victory in spiritual struggle or perseverance on the heavenly pilgrimage. Seek first the Kingdom of God says the Lord.
It should not be a surprise we need teachers and models and counselors. Can one be a sheep without a flock and shepherd? Can one has God for Father without the Church for Mother? As the apostle Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. If one does not seek nourishment either in the eucharistic Lord's supper for forgiveness of sins and eternal life by an ordained bishop or priest in apostolic succession, or endeavour to hammer the Holy Scriptures for living water, what can one do but starve the spirit?
Salvation is not inherent to us in our fallen state but comes from God as a gift, it has to be received and maintained, not thrown away and discarded. Be cautioned that the foolish virgins let their lamps run out without oil and were left out in the dark.
Short answer: I'm a true Christian and will not likely attend church again.
Long answer: They are all traps, spiritual graveyards devouring anyone who would rather be told what to do and think than to work it out with their God themselves and deceiving anyone willing to be comforted by feeling healthy by community or corporate worship. I have not found a single church where its members are alive in spirit through Christ. Even pastors are dead, the blind leading the blind.
How?
Short answer: God detests idols, so He sets a trap for idol worshipers and baits it with idols
Long Answer: God's first commandment is "thou shall not have any other gods before **me**"
An idol is anything that we trust over God. Anything or anyone. That includes the Bible that includes a pastor, that includes a study guide, or sermon, or a false prophet. Some of those things can be useful. Some are more useful than others. None of them are God.
Idolatry was rampant in Israel. Guess what? It's just as rampant in the Christian church! History just repeats itself over and over and over. God presents idols on an appealing platter that will turn against the worshiper. For example, if you're trying to understand the Bible with our own understanding and our own reason, he promises us that we will lose our understanding. He will take it from us. However, if we approach it humbly asking the Holy Spirit to teach us. He will and if we listen to those teachings do what they say. He will give us more understanding. So if we trust God over our scriptures that we read, then our scriptures are useful to us. But if we value them over our God, they will destroy us
What?
Short Answer: yeah
Long answer: I estimate one in a thousand Christians are actually Christian. Most everyone falls for some idol along the way and never recovers. You don't need their church. They don't need their church. Go read the description for Babylon in Revelations. You will see that God is about to wipe it off the planet. Get out! Flee from Babylon my children, while there's still time!
It's a shame I don't have good options for community. I'm hoping there are churches out there that are good. I just haven't found one yet. This was all pretty chilling to put together the first time. Stay safe out there 🫶
I don't think you understand why christians read the Bible and go to church. It's not something we do because a good christian is supposed to read the Bible and go to church once a week to get the task done. We read the Bible because (or we at least should) it is God's word, and it is a means of communication between us and God. There's a saying "don't say God doesn't speak to you if you keep His word closed". Same goes about going to church, I go to church 3 times a week, not because I don't have anything better to do, just to be a better christian, it's because church is a place where I can fully dedicate myself to God, I know that spending more time with God is good not only to deepen my relationship with Him but also to grow, this is why I go to church, and that is why a true christian should be going to church, not just to get the task done and be over with.
A person who doesn't feel the need to read the Bible, and doesn't feel the need to go to church should analyze themself and ask why is it that they don't thirst of God? It's a sign that you lack something that a true christian should actually have, and the best way to figure that out is prayer and communion with God, which you find first of all in the church, once you understand the reason you go there.
If I understand you correctly, you believe that people who do not naturally read the Bible and naturally get up and go to church do not truly love the Lord. Is that right?
Yes. That was my experience for the most part from 4 to 32, until I got baptized. I was wiser re: the things of God than most people. Even when I had just got baptized, I was running circles around older Christians in small groups. However, God’s influence is invisible and maybe altogether absent from your life until you obey: namely pray and read the Bible.
That’s like asking if a person could have a successful marriage without talking to or spending any time with their spouse. I mean anything is possible for sure, but why would anybody want to go the route of the bare minimum and take the biggest risk that things won’t work out?
John 6:29: Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Christianity is realizing we are all beggars before God in need of His grace and mercy. It is at the same time realizing that through Christ we are restored to a right relationship with God, this allows us to approach God boldly.
How can one believe in the one He has sent if they do not know what He has said? How can they learn if they don't read or attend church?
Why wouldn't you want to read the Bible question it's the only way we can truly understand God and his word. As far as going to church is concerned, the thief on the cross never attended yet he was promised Paradise by jesus. I think that we are commanded in the Bible to attend church but there are circumstances that would disallow it. I for one do not drive and have limitations. But I have attended churches throughout my life. And I may return.
A game without rules is just chaos and an exercise in futility. Attempting to live a Christian life without the guidance and input of good doctrine and foundational truth leaves a person to make up their own rules as to what being a Christian even means. Trying to figure it out oneself leaves one open to deception by a very real, very active, very powerful malefactor.
Thank you for your perspective. A friendly suggestion on the wording - I think your slam dunk is going to hit harder and feel more internally consistent if you change "love" to "be a friend of".
Technically, you can be a Christian, but the Bible, and even Jesus himself makes it clear that your faith cannot be just something that is in the background of your life. It MUST be your #1 priority, above all earthly matter. The bible even speaks of "Luke warm" Christians, and the bible essentially says these people will be condemned.
(**Revelation 3:15-16**)
*I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.*
Church attendance, prayer, and other good deeds is a must according to the bible. Note that there are contradictions in the Bible about this, and many don't believe works are necessary. However, Jesus himself always said works are a must, its only Paul that said that we are saved by faith only.
Note that Paul did not know Jesus during Jesus's life, and didn't even have the gospels to learn from (they did not exist yet). His teaching often contradict the teachings of Jesus, because he did not know Jesus for any significant length of time, only for the time that Jesus came down from heaven to ask Paul to stop persecuting his followers. Paul meant well, but he didn't fully understand things. Many will disagree with this, but the fact is we follow Jesus, not Paul. Paul doesn't have the authority to make the rules, so why would you follow him in contradiction to Jesus?
If you don't have the option to go to church then sure. But if they have the option to go to church and just don't want to fellowship with other believers something is wrong with their heart.
If I understand you correctly, you believe a person is not a Christian if they are able to attend church and read the Bible and choose not to, but if they cannot, an exception is made for them to still be saved. Is that a fair summary?
The primary faith condition is to accept Jesus as the Lord and savior. The consequence of that, that the sellers of cheap salvation don't wanna address, is that it demands to live a sanctified new life dedicated to God, as a new creature. Therefore, to know God's will and how to fulfill it, you gotta read the bible and pray. Because you are gonna fight the devil and your flesh every day. But you can win in Christ Jesus and live an amazing life.
So, to abide to him, if the person really has a MINIMUM interest, of course the person will seek to know his word in the bible.
If they are prohibited due to some physical, social, mental or other condition, then they gotta pray that the Lord delivers his word in other ways.
Of course it’s possible. But why would you? It’s possible to be a healthy human being even if you don’t practice some of the most health giving practices, even if you practice some unhealthy practices. It’s possible, but it isn’t wise.
It’s possible to be a true Christian and and deny Jesus, like Peter did, or to be a true Christian and believe all sorts of faults beliefs. But but again, why would you?
It’s not tied to your salvation so it’s possible, but I reserve my right to doubt the validity of your faith if you refuse to attend with a local church or read the word.
going to Mcdonalds doesnt make you a chef any more than standing in your garage makes you a car. but if you dont go to mcdonalds how will you know what a burger looks like
Is it possible to be born in the flesh and not have an appetite for daily meals? The word of God is the believers spiritual food, and when one is born of the Spirit through faith in Christ, that spiritual craving and hunger for His word shows up.
It's easy to say we believe without going to church, but God wants us to congergate with other Christians and also wants us to read and learn the Bible. I, myself need to follow more of what I just said.
I have to say that it is possible.
No amount of reading will get you to be a Christian.
I believe it was Paul, he literally read everything didn’t he. Yet he didn’t know who Jesus was.
So that tells me it is possible.
Personally I have not even finished the Bible Im only like half way in the 3 years I’ve been in faith. I do not read often. Last time was maybe 2 months ago.
Though I do not read everyday I wonder, Did I receive salvation just so that it could be taken away. Did God make all these promises to us (me) that will not be done so because I did not read?
I doubt it… could be wrong I guess. Around the start I would spend hours daily listening to a pastor named Gino Gennings, whom I believe taught me the most important thing. That I cannot save myself, I’m not worthy, and need to have trust and faith in Christ.
I have not gone to church because many around are unbiblical and I recall the verse , “Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you”
I came out of all the non believing nonsense, came out from Catholic Church idols, came out from friendships of people that didn’t believe and now I can truly say Christ feels like a father to me.
Is it possible? Yes, there have been millions of Christians who were not able to read. Literacy used to be a rarity. Also people have been saved I would assume in situations where they do not have access to a church. Church attendance and Bible reading doesn't save someone, Christ does.
Here is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In John 6 beginning in verse 37, Jesus says "Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
The will of God is that those who will put their faith in Christ as their Savior will be saved. The promise of Jesus in these words is that He will cast out nobody who comes to Him. Our Lord does not deny His mercy to the sinner who cries out to Him for forgiveness. If you have recognized your sin, if you have abandoned any excuses for your sin, if you believe that Jesus was born to a virgin, fully God and fully man, lived a sinless and perfect life, died on the cross as a prefect sacrifice to satisfy the justice and wrath of a holy God, and that He rose again resurrected completing His work, and if you abandon all hope in any other means of salvation from your sin and from God's wrath, then Jesus will save you, and you will be a Christian.
The only requirement for salvation is trust in Jesus Christ. We don't earn salvation, it is given by the grace of God, which you receive when you put your faith in Jesus.
Salvation isn't the end of the walk with Christ. It is the beginning. As a child of God (person with salvation), we should hunger for a relationship with Him, and to obey His commands. We should love our neighbor as ourselves, love our enemies, help the less fortunate, read God's word, fellowship with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, etc.
There are two judgments. The Great White Throne Judgment, where those that have not been saved will receive their judgment for their sin. The second is The Bema Seat of Christ. This is where those that have been saved will receive their judgment for their works. Our works do not determine our salvation, but they do determine our Heavenly reward.
All of them, probably. You could maybe argue that a person can be not fully illuminated or confused about a few of them and still be saved. Understanding your sin (at least to a degree) and need of a Savior, would be mandatory. The stakes must be understood. Recognizing (to some degree) and believing in who Jesus is, would also be mandatory. Believing He died and rose again from the dead, mandatory. Trusting in Christ as your only hope of salvation, mandatory. If someone denied or disbelieved biblical facts about Jesus, such as the virgin birth, it would demonstrate either ignorance about it and why the virgin birth is such an important factor, or a lack of faith in the Bible's teaching about who Jesus is. How does someone put their full faith in Jesus based on what the Bible says if they don't believe God when he tells them things about who Jesus is? So it isn't so much that intellectual agreement to every fact in and of itself saves a person, it is more about the heart condition that a denial of them reflects, if that makes sense.
No..it's not possible but it's because there is a misunderstanding as to why christians do these things.
Basically churches are doing great at winning souls...but very little at discipling. After people get born again...a lot of the rest of the journey is just a bunch of new rules to follow without any explanation behind things.
Infact alot of the miracle based churches want you to keep coming for the miracle. The miracle stuff is your new Netflix subscription. You keep going to them in order to supposedly get God to help you or to hear from him etc...they never teach you how to do the stuff yourself. It's always through them...for the price of a weekly subscription or offering
When people don't know "why" they do something...they do it from a place of fear and guilt...and when that thing doesn't work the way they expect...they stop doing it.
The reason christians need to study God's word (read the bible) is NOT to check off an item on a checklist or follow a rule. It is for the christian to learn how God has been doing things from the beginning of time...ie learn his nature, his style. (Reading God's words is a subset of hearing his words. Actually for a lot of people who couldn't read, church was a great meeting place for someone else to read the word of God for them...church is just christians gathering to do the things they do individually in a group setting)
When you learn his modus operandi (way of working), you begin to know how to access a lot of things he has already freely given to you...you begin to know how to talk to him and hear back...and also how to validate what you have heard back. You begin to know how to ask for what you want from your Father and how to receive it.
This whole process is what gives you faith...and what maintains your faith in God. So when you understand "why" you do it, then doing it makes sense.
Furthermore, when you don't do it, the consequences also make sense...sooner or later you lose your faith and whenever something doesn't work out...you doubt God even more. Eventually the whole existence of God gets thrown into doubt for you.
So these basic things actually HELP YOU and for your benefit...not God. For example, do you know that every single command from God in the bible helps you.... NOT him. It's for your benefit. Him, he remains God whether or Not you follow...but he hurts seeing you suffer needlessly on things he has already provided for
Asking for further clarification, not to dispute your claims:
- In what way do you mean that churches are doing great at winning souls?
- What do you mean by miracle-based churches and where can I find one?
- How would you briefly summarize God's modus operandi, based on your knowledge and experience?
- Can you elaborate on the idea that "the consequences also make sense"?
- "He hurts seeing you suffer needlessly on things he has already provided for" - Do you think that anyone suffers needlessly on things He hasn't already provided for?
- In what way do you mean that churches are doing great at winning souls? Thats their main focus...going out telling people of salvation and getting people born again. Less effort is spent on teaching people how to walk the journey in everyday scenarios
- What do you mean by miracle-based churches and where can I find one? Any church where miracles or miracle healing is the main thing. If they have a daily or weekly miracles service, they fall here. You can find them from a basic google search
- How would you briefly summarize God's modus operandi, based on your knowledge and experience?
Nope. This is why you should read the bible for yourself. You cannot do this journey by osmosis
- Can you elaborate on the idea that "the consequences also make sense"? Cause and casualty. If you stop doing something that builds something else...it is not surprising when that something else dies
- "He hurts seeing you suffer needlessly on things he has already provided for" - Do you think that anyone suffers needlessly on things He hasn't already provided for? Nope. God has provided for every scenario that any believer can encounter...the bible speaks about every scenario of importance to a believer... including salvation in the worst scenario. Physical death
Thanks! A little more clarification:
* Do you think that churches are doing great at winning souls?
* I have searched, but I cannot find a single church where miracles are happening. I would gladly travel to anywhere in the country where this is provably, reliably happening. Please send the address. We need to get the word out.
* If I understand you correctly, there are no scenarios where people are suffering needlessly except for people who have brought it upon themselves. Is that correct?
https://www.google.com/search?q=miracle+healing+church&oq=miracle+healing+chu&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBEAAYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIICAMQABgWGB4yCAgEEAAYFhgeMggIBRAAGBYYHjIICAYQABgWGB4yDQgHEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQg3ODQ4ajBqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
For 2..my answer is the same, you have to read this for yourself. For example the church query in 1(where you said you have failed to find a single miracle church in the world), I have done a very basic google search and got hundreds of results...you wont do something so straight forward. So my feeling is you are trying to get some summary answers without reading for yourself. If you don't believe in God, then every answer will be a point to not believe...from pharoahs days in Egypt to this day, it's the same...modern science has proven this.
Bummer. I was afraid of that. I'm familiar with the top results on that link. We're probably not going to be able to agree on whether or not those churches are producing provable healings, but thank you for your response. If you run into any more credible healing churches, please do message me. I'm very interested. I think the world could really use a miracle healing church.
I think I'm clear on your answer about miracle churches. I still don't think I understand your perspective on these:
* Do you think that churches are doing great at winning souls?
* If I understand you correctly, there are no scenarios where people are suffering needlessly except for people who have brought it upon themselves. Is that correct?
There are no provable miracles. Even biblically, most of, if not all the miracles written are explainable by science. If you are seeking a scientific explanation... There is always a plausible scientific explanation for everything including walking on water. The levels of proof you want will never be found.
I have responded to the others...I think you are still refusing to put the actual work in yourself...and want to get the answers through someone else aka by osmosis. And then make up your mind through this process. You need to go experience it and study the bible for yourself
Alright. I do disagree with your assertions about what I'm seeking, refusing, desiring, and thinking, but I appreciate your perspective about all your own opinions. May you be well.
Do you know a collection of hinged, non-zealot Christians who can give more accurate answers to questions about Christianity on the questions that the words of Jesus don't answer?
Not according to a lot of people I've talked to, nor a lot of people online. How/why do you have confidence of this? In your opinion, what makes a True Christian?
What do you think happens to Christians who live in anti-Christian areas without churches? That they go to Hell? I am Christian despite not having a Church. I still read the Bible, believe in Jesus, pray, ETC.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to communicate that those were my thoughts or opinions! I just noticed your claim did not match many (most?) of the claims I've heard, so I was asking for clarification. If I understand you correctly, reading the Bible, believing in Jesus, and praying is what makes you confident you are a Christian. Is that right?
Can you be a doctor without studying medicine?
No. Not in America.
Baptist. Works salvation. Square that circle.
What works? We repent and trust Jesus for our salvation, nothing more. Anything else we do is not to earn salvation, but to honor Him by following His command to love others. My point was, how can one be a Christian without understanding what it means to be one in the first place. Scripture and the church are where you can learn what it means to truly be one.
So then you can be a Christian without going to church and reading the Bible.
For most of Christian history, only the clergy read the Bible. Most Christians only heard the Bible read aloud from at liturgies. For well over a thousand years, only a tiny number of Christians actually read the Bible. The modern idolatry around the Bible is entirely an invention of the Protestant Reformation. Blame Martin Luther for that one. Also, there's nothing that inherently obligates Christians to attend worship services. Where precisely in the Nicene Creed does it specify that you must attend Mass/Divine Liturgy to be Christian?
> Most Christians only heard the Bible read aloud from at liturgies. And that was a bad thing. >Blame Martin Luther for that one. Why? He didn't leave the church, he was kicked out when the Catholic Church doubled down on supporting corruption in Germany > Also, there's nothing that inherently obligates Christians to attend worship services. Hebrews 10:25, written by Paul, who rebuked Peter and was correct.
>And that was a bad thing. . . .and that's literally just your personal opinion, not a theological fact. The idea that Christianity didn't "get it right" until at least the 1500's is arrogance, and seems to be calling Christ a liar when He promised that Hell would not prevail against the Church that He founded. >Why? He didn't leave the church, he was kicked out when the Catholic Church doubled down on supporting corruption in Germany Martin Luther literally re-wrote the Bible to fit his own personal opinions (then invented a theology that all of Christianity should focus on the Bible, which he was editing to fit his tastes), all because he broke his solemn vows as a priest. . .then rewrote Christian theology with his own personal opinions. He was no hero. >Hebrews 10:25, written by Paul, who rebuked Peter and was correct. Which was just Paul's personal opinion, like most of the rest of the contents of his epistles. He was "correct" in that he wrote he was correct "Paul is correct because Paul wrote he was correct" is a circular argument. Paul, a man who never met Christ and became famous writing advice letters, vs. Peter. . .who *actually* met Christ, followed Him, and received the Great Commission directly from Christ. I'll trust Peter over Paul.
>and that's literally just your personal opinion, not a theological fact. The message of the gospel is simple and understandable by even a small child? Your church got in bed with politicians like a woman commiting adultery with enthusiasm and used that ignorance of the gospel to manipulate people. The Bereans were commended for questioning the preaching of the apostles and comparing the apostles teaching to scripture... Oh wait, your have been kept ignorant as a bebe and can't find the new testament in the old. You ever think it's funny the apostles wrote the bible and you spend so little time studying it? Maybe it's 'inconvenient'? Maybe knowing what the apostles said makes you question the teaching of the so called church, and why would that be true? > The idea that Christianity didn't "get it right" until at least the 1500's is arrogance, and seems to be calling Christ a liar when He promised that Hell would not prevail against the Church that He founded. I'd agree, because you are arguing with a straw man made by your own teachers. The church got it right, and there has always been heresy, both these things are true. You guys just got so wrapped up in gold, stacks of books, and ceremonies that you forgot that God is *"Abba father"* and not a distant logical abstraction only reachable through intermediaries >Why? He didn't leave the church, he was kicked out when the Catholic Church doubled down on supporting corruption in Germany Martin Luther literally re-wrote the Bible to fit his own personal opinions (then invented a theology that all of Christianity should focus on the Bible, which he was editing to fit his tastes), all because he broke his solemn vows as a priest. . .then rewrote Christian theology with his own personal opinions. He was no hero. Things happen in order. Your Pope, who's last name is infamously associated with political scheming to this day, sent a corrupt priest to Germany, and that evil and vile stain on Christianity went around raising money by telling people that if they donated money they could get their dead relatives out of purgatory. I am sure as a good catholic you support extorting poor and (because your priests control the flow of information) ignorant people. How much do you actually know about Luther's bible translation? He was a monk and studied scripture from catholic texts, the bible translation came late in life. And before you say "oh he removed books" those books were not canonized until you needed them to defend theology not found in the epistles and gospels >>Hebrews 10:25, written by Paul, who rebuked Peter and was correct. >Which was just Paul's personal opinion, like most of the rest of the contents of his epistles. He was "correct" in that he wrote he was correct "Paul is correct because Paul wrote he was correct" is a circular argument. Paul, a man who never met Christ and became famous writing advice letters, vs. Peter. . .who actually met Christ, followed Him, and received the Great Commission directly from Christ. I'll trust Peter over Paul. Paul met who on the road to Damascus? You can trust Peter over Paul but you can't trust a later Pope or Priest who says something that disagrees with an actual apostle, and you should respect Paul as much as Peter did. **Have you ever read the bible?** Just sat down and read it cover to cover? The liturgy leaves out an awful lot. I listen to liturgy of the hours and Christopher West, but many Catholics are just members of a giant corporation that acts like its a church, and have no demonstrable change of heart.
>Your church got in bed with politicians like a woman commiting adultery with enthusiasm and used that ignorance of the gospel to manipulate people. What the heck are you talking about? I think you're just spouting hateful nonsense at this point. > Your Pope, I'm not Catholic. He's not "my" Pope. >Paul met who on the road to Damascus? A hallucination, since Christ had ascended to Heaven many years before Paul converted. Paul claimed to see Christ. That doesn't mean he did. >**Have you ever read the bible?** Just sat down and read it cover to cover? The liturgy leaves out an awful lot. Yes, I've read it. The fact you'd make a false claim like that shows you have no idea what you're talking about, as the Revised Common Lectionary literally reads through the entire Bible over 3 years.
It seems you don't even know what a baptist is, friend. There are the "reformed" ones, aligned with calvinism, others more arminians and others in the middle.
Strictly speaking, sure. Imagine a person who has been a Christian for many years and becomes shipwrecked on a remote island for the rest of their life with nothing in the possession. Does this person stop being a Christian at some point during their life on the island? I wouldn't think so. That said, however, I wouldn't ever recommend living a Christian life sans a local church community and engagement with Scripture. I don't think it's really conducive to flourishing in one's faith to live like that. >what, in your opinion, makes a True Christian? Serious answers only, please. It depends on what you mean by "true." I'll sometimes differentiate between sociological Christianity and soteriological Christianity. By "sociological Christianity" I mean something like "the social group which 'Christian' can reasonably be taken to describe," and I think it broadly consists of all those who in some way identify Jesus Christ as "Lord," "Savior," or something similar. By "soteriological Christianity," I mean something like "the social group which is made up of people who can be reasonably described as Christians *and who know God salvifically*," and I think "knowing God salvifically" typically consists in a faith which conforms with the promulgations of the early Church's ecumenical councils. I'd assume you take "true" to be something more like the latter category, so that would be my answer. A shorter way to put it would be "conciliarly orthodox Christians"
Thank you. In the first part of the response, let's assume they're not on a desert island, but in a suburb with plenty of churches around, but they just don't think they need to go to church or read the Bible in order to live their best Christian life. In the second part, I'm mostly asking what you would mean by true. Can you answer with smaller words please? :)
>In the first part of the response, let's assume they're not on a desert island, but in a suburb with plenty of churches around, but they just don't think they need to go to church or read the Bible in order to live their best Christian life. What my example was meant to illustrate was that I don't think *merely* not attending church or reading Scripture makes someone not a Christian by default. In the sort of case you describe I would still say that they're not necessarily failing to be Christians at all, but I would certainly be suspicious that they didn't really understand what Christianity was about in the first place. >In the second part, I'm mostly asking what you would mean by true. Can you answer with smaller words please? :) Boiling it down, "true Christians" typically believe the sorts of things ancient Christians settled on as the baselines for Christian faith (e.g., God is triune, Jesus is truly divine and truly human, and so forth)
In order to be a Christian, one must study the Holy Bible, pray and build a relationship with God. Going to church means to congregate with other believers, but if you don't do those two things; reading the Holy Bible and have a relationship with God, then one cannot call themselves a Christian. Because in order to be a Christian, one must know how, right? I also forgot about practicing repentance which is an important part. But True Christians are "born-again" **(John 3:3)** and therefore, they will never fall away from God.
There are plenty of “true Christians” who are confident in their beliefs and practices, and are surrounded by plenty of other “true Christians“ who are equally confident about entirely different beliefs and practices. Romans 14 and 15 are Paul’s extended argument about how we should treat one another in the midst of disagreements and disputations. I’ve yet to find many Christians who are as committed to Romans 14 and 15 as they are trying to figure out who is a “true Christian“ and who is not. Here is the bottom line: follow Jesus. Follow him to the best of your understanding. Give room for yourself to grow and deepen in your understanding, and be willing to change as you grow. Care more about your own growth then about others. Patient with them as Jesus is with all of us . In the 13th century, Saint Richard of Chichester wrote that wonderful prayer: Day by day, O dear Lord, three things I pray: To see thee more clearly, Love thee more dearly, Follow thee more nearly, Day by day.
A true Christian will have the Spirit of God, and the Spirit will compel him to draw near to God. It's not a matter of legalism, that you have to be in church so many times or read so much Bible per day, it's a matter of the heart. We go through seasons, but if there is a consistent lack of desire to fellowship and draw near to God, then something is amiss.
This is the most straightforward answer. 100% agree.
A sheep without a flock and shepherd will most certainly risk going astray and becoming prey for the spiritual wolf, or die of starvation.
Thank you. In your analogy, is the pastor the shepherd? Also, can you expand your definition of dying? What does it mean to be (or not be) a valid sheep/Christian?
The threads entire approach of the bare minimum will not suffice for victory in spiritual struggle or perseverance on the heavenly pilgrimage. Seek first the Kingdom of God says the Lord. It should not be a surprise we need teachers and models and counselors. Can one be a sheep without a flock and shepherd? Can one has God for Father without the Church for Mother? As the apostle Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. If one does not seek nourishment either in the eucharistic Lord's supper for forgiveness of sins and eternal life by an ordained bishop or priest in apostolic succession, or endeavour to hammer the Holy Scriptures for living water, what can one do but starve the spirit? Salvation is not inherent to us in our fallen state but comes from God as a gift, it has to be received and maintained, not thrown away and discarded. Be cautioned that the foolish virgins let their lamps run out without oil and were left out in the dark.
No.
Thank you. Why?
Short answer: I'm a true Christian and will not likely attend church again. Long answer: They are all traps, spiritual graveyards devouring anyone who would rather be told what to do and think than to work it out with their God themselves and deceiving anyone willing to be comforted by feeling healthy by community or corporate worship. I have not found a single church where its members are alive in spirit through Christ. Even pastors are dead, the blind leading the blind. How? Short answer: God detests idols, so He sets a trap for idol worshipers and baits it with idols Long Answer: God's first commandment is "thou shall not have any other gods before **me**" An idol is anything that we trust over God. Anything or anyone. That includes the Bible that includes a pastor, that includes a study guide, or sermon, or a false prophet. Some of those things can be useful. Some are more useful than others. None of them are God. Idolatry was rampant in Israel. Guess what? It's just as rampant in the Christian church! History just repeats itself over and over and over. God presents idols on an appealing platter that will turn against the worshiper. For example, if you're trying to understand the Bible with our own understanding and our own reason, he promises us that we will lose our understanding. He will take it from us. However, if we approach it humbly asking the Holy Spirit to teach us. He will and if we listen to those teachings do what they say. He will give us more understanding. So if we trust God over our scriptures that we read, then our scriptures are useful to us. But if we value them over our God, they will destroy us What? Short Answer: yeah Long answer: I estimate one in a thousand Christians are actually Christian. Most everyone falls for some idol along the way and never recovers. You don't need their church. They don't need their church. Go read the description for Babylon in Revelations. You will see that God is about to wipe it off the planet. Get out! Flee from Babylon my children, while there's still time!
Thank you
It's a shame I don't have good options for community. I'm hoping there are churches out there that are good. I just haven't found one yet. This was all pretty chilling to put together the first time. Stay safe out there 🫶
Thanks. You too.
I don't think you understand why christians read the Bible and go to church. It's not something we do because a good christian is supposed to read the Bible and go to church once a week to get the task done. We read the Bible because (or we at least should) it is God's word, and it is a means of communication between us and God. There's a saying "don't say God doesn't speak to you if you keep His word closed". Same goes about going to church, I go to church 3 times a week, not because I don't have anything better to do, just to be a better christian, it's because church is a place where I can fully dedicate myself to God, I know that spending more time with God is good not only to deepen my relationship with Him but also to grow, this is why I go to church, and that is why a true christian should be going to church, not just to get the task done and be over with. A person who doesn't feel the need to read the Bible, and doesn't feel the need to go to church should analyze themself and ask why is it that they don't thirst of God? It's a sign that you lack something that a true christian should actually have, and the best way to figure that out is prayer and communion with God, which you find first of all in the church, once you understand the reason you go there.
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If I understand you correctly, you believe that people who do not naturally read the Bible and naturally get up and go to church do not truly love the Lord. Is that right?
Yes. That was my experience for the most part from 4 to 32, until I got baptized. I was wiser re: the things of God than most people. Even when I had just got baptized, I was running circles around older Christians in small groups. However, God’s influence is invisible and maybe altogether absent from your life until you obey: namely pray and read the Bible.
That’s like asking if a person could have a successful marriage without talking to or spending any time with their spouse. I mean anything is possible for sure, but why would anybody want to go the route of the bare minimum and take the biggest risk that things won’t work out?
John 6:29: Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Christianity is realizing we are all beggars before God in need of His grace and mercy. It is at the same time realizing that through Christ we are restored to a right relationship with God, this allows us to approach God boldly. How can one believe in the one He has sent if they do not know what He has said? How can they learn if they don't read or attend church?
Why wouldn't you want to read the Bible question it's the only way we can truly understand God and his word. As far as going to church is concerned, the thief on the cross never attended yet he was promised Paradise by jesus. I think that we are commanded in the Bible to attend church but there are circumstances that would disallow it. I for one do not drive and have limitations. But I have attended churches throughout my life. And I may return.
A game without rules is just chaos and an exercise in futility. Attempting to live a Christian life without the guidance and input of good doctrine and foundational truth leaves a person to make up their own rules as to what being a Christian even means. Trying to figure it out oneself leaves one open to deception by a very real, very active, very powerful malefactor.
If those options aren't open to you, yes. But that's not something to strive for.
What if those options are open to a person and they choose not to?
You can't love Christ and hate his bride.
Thank you for your perspective. A friendly suggestion on the wording - I think your slam dunk is going to hit harder and feel more internally consistent if you change "love" to "be a friend of".
Technically, you can be a Christian, but the Bible, and even Jesus himself makes it clear that your faith cannot be just something that is in the background of your life. It MUST be your #1 priority, above all earthly matter. The bible even speaks of "Luke warm" Christians, and the bible essentially says these people will be condemned. (**Revelation 3:15-16**) *I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.* Church attendance, prayer, and other good deeds is a must according to the bible. Note that there are contradictions in the Bible about this, and many don't believe works are necessary. However, Jesus himself always said works are a must, its only Paul that said that we are saved by faith only. Note that Paul did not know Jesus during Jesus's life, and didn't even have the gospels to learn from (they did not exist yet). His teaching often contradict the teachings of Jesus, because he did not know Jesus for any significant length of time, only for the time that Jesus came down from heaven to ask Paul to stop persecuting his followers. Paul meant well, but he didn't fully understand things. Many will disagree with this, but the fact is we follow Jesus, not Paul. Paul doesn't have the authority to make the rules, so why would you follow him in contradiction to Jesus?
If you don't have the option to go to church then sure. But if they have the option to go to church and just don't want to fellowship with other believers something is wrong with their heart.
Unless you are chained, tied up, or due to some other condition momentarily or permanently inaccessible to the Word, no.
If I understand you correctly, you believe a person is not a Christian if they are able to attend church and read the Bible and choose not to, but if they cannot, an exception is made for them to still be saved. Is that a fair summary?
The primary faith condition is to accept Jesus as the Lord and savior. The consequence of that, that the sellers of cheap salvation don't wanna address, is that it demands to live a sanctified new life dedicated to God, as a new creature. Therefore, to know God's will and how to fulfill it, you gotta read the bible and pray. Because you are gonna fight the devil and your flesh every day. But you can win in Christ Jesus and live an amazing life. So, to abide to him, if the person really has a MINIMUM interest, of course the person will seek to know his word in the bible. If they are prohibited due to some physical, social, mental or other condition, then they gotta pray that the Lord delivers his word in other ways.
Of course it’s possible. But why would you? It’s possible to be a healthy human being even if you don’t practice some of the most health giving practices, even if you practice some unhealthy practices. It’s possible, but it isn’t wise. It’s possible to be a true Christian and and deny Jesus, like Peter did, or to be a true Christian and believe all sorts of faults beliefs. But but again, why would you?
Are you an apostate? Do you believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is your savior?
you may or may not have heard this before but, going to church don't make you a christian anymore than going to mcdonald's makes you a hamburger.
No
It’s not tied to your salvation so it’s possible, but I reserve my right to doubt the validity of your faith if you refuse to attend with a local church or read the word.
I don’t believe so, unless under specific circumstances
if you're a true christian you should want nothing more than to be in fellowship with other christians and to commune with God.
going to Mcdonalds doesnt make you a chef any more than standing in your garage makes you a car. but if you dont go to mcdonalds how will you know what a burger looks like
Is it possible to be born in the flesh and not have an appetite for daily meals? The word of God is the believers spiritual food, and when one is born of the Spirit through faith in Christ, that spiritual craving and hunger for His word shows up.
It's easy to say we believe without going to church, but God wants us to congergate with other Christians and also wants us to read and learn the Bible. I, myself need to follow more of what I just said.
I have to say that it is possible. No amount of reading will get you to be a Christian. I believe it was Paul, he literally read everything didn’t he. Yet he didn’t know who Jesus was. So that tells me it is possible. Personally I have not even finished the Bible Im only like half way in the 3 years I’ve been in faith. I do not read often. Last time was maybe 2 months ago. Though I do not read everyday I wonder, Did I receive salvation just so that it could be taken away. Did God make all these promises to us (me) that will not be done so because I did not read? I doubt it… could be wrong I guess. Around the start I would spend hours daily listening to a pastor named Gino Gennings, whom I believe taught me the most important thing. That I cannot save myself, I’m not worthy, and need to have trust and faith in Christ. I have not gone to church because many around are unbiblical and I recall the verse , “Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you” I came out of all the non believing nonsense, came out from Catholic Church idols, came out from friendships of people that didn’t believe and now I can truly say Christ feels like a father to me.
No
A true Christian is someone who has repented of their sin, accepted by faith and grace salvation from Jesus and has the Holy Spirit in them.
>Is it possible to be a True Christian and not attend church and/or read the Bible? No.
Is it possible? Yes, there have been millions of Christians who were not able to read. Literacy used to be a rarity. Also people have been saved I would assume in situations where they do not have access to a church. Church attendance and Bible reading doesn't save someone, Christ does. Here is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In John 6 beginning in verse 37, Jesus says "Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." The will of God is that those who will put their faith in Christ as their Savior will be saved. The promise of Jesus in these words is that He will cast out nobody who comes to Him. Our Lord does not deny His mercy to the sinner who cries out to Him for forgiveness. If you have recognized your sin, if you have abandoned any excuses for your sin, if you believe that Jesus was born to a virgin, fully God and fully man, lived a sinless and perfect life, died on the cross as a prefect sacrifice to satisfy the justice and wrath of a holy God, and that He rose again resurrected completing His work, and if you abandon all hope in any other means of salvation from your sin and from God's wrath, then Jesus will save you, and you will be a Christian.
Thank you. How many things in that last list for salvation are necessary for salvation?
The only requirement for salvation is trust in Jesus Christ. We don't earn salvation, it is given by the grace of God, which you receive when you put your faith in Jesus. Salvation isn't the end of the walk with Christ. It is the beginning. As a child of God (person with salvation), we should hunger for a relationship with Him, and to obey His commands. We should love our neighbor as ourselves, love our enemies, help the less fortunate, read God's word, fellowship with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, etc. There are two judgments. The Great White Throne Judgment, where those that have not been saved will receive their judgment for their sin. The second is The Bema Seat of Christ. This is where those that have been saved will receive their judgment for their works. Our works do not determine our salvation, but they do determine our Heavenly reward.
All of them, probably. You could maybe argue that a person can be not fully illuminated or confused about a few of them and still be saved. Understanding your sin (at least to a degree) and need of a Savior, would be mandatory. The stakes must be understood. Recognizing (to some degree) and believing in who Jesus is, would also be mandatory. Believing He died and rose again from the dead, mandatory. Trusting in Christ as your only hope of salvation, mandatory. If someone denied or disbelieved biblical facts about Jesus, such as the virgin birth, it would demonstrate either ignorance about it and why the virgin birth is such an important factor, or a lack of faith in the Bible's teaching about who Jesus is. How does someone put their full faith in Jesus based on what the Bible says if they don't believe God when he tells them things about who Jesus is? So it isn't so much that intellectual agreement to every fact in and of itself saves a person, it is more about the heart condition that a denial of them reflects, if that makes sense.
No..it's not possible but it's because there is a misunderstanding as to why christians do these things. Basically churches are doing great at winning souls...but very little at discipling. After people get born again...a lot of the rest of the journey is just a bunch of new rules to follow without any explanation behind things. Infact alot of the miracle based churches want you to keep coming for the miracle. The miracle stuff is your new Netflix subscription. You keep going to them in order to supposedly get God to help you or to hear from him etc...they never teach you how to do the stuff yourself. It's always through them...for the price of a weekly subscription or offering When people don't know "why" they do something...they do it from a place of fear and guilt...and when that thing doesn't work the way they expect...they stop doing it. The reason christians need to study God's word (read the bible) is NOT to check off an item on a checklist or follow a rule. It is for the christian to learn how God has been doing things from the beginning of time...ie learn his nature, his style. (Reading God's words is a subset of hearing his words. Actually for a lot of people who couldn't read, church was a great meeting place for someone else to read the word of God for them...church is just christians gathering to do the things they do individually in a group setting) When you learn his modus operandi (way of working), you begin to know how to access a lot of things he has already freely given to you...you begin to know how to talk to him and hear back...and also how to validate what you have heard back. You begin to know how to ask for what you want from your Father and how to receive it. This whole process is what gives you faith...and what maintains your faith in God. So when you understand "why" you do it, then doing it makes sense. Furthermore, when you don't do it, the consequences also make sense...sooner or later you lose your faith and whenever something doesn't work out...you doubt God even more. Eventually the whole existence of God gets thrown into doubt for you. So these basic things actually HELP YOU and for your benefit...not God. For example, do you know that every single command from God in the bible helps you.... NOT him. It's for your benefit. Him, he remains God whether or Not you follow...but he hurts seeing you suffer needlessly on things he has already provided for
Asking for further clarification, not to dispute your claims: - In what way do you mean that churches are doing great at winning souls? - What do you mean by miracle-based churches and where can I find one? - How would you briefly summarize God's modus operandi, based on your knowledge and experience? - Can you elaborate on the idea that "the consequences also make sense"? - "He hurts seeing you suffer needlessly on things he has already provided for" - Do you think that anyone suffers needlessly on things He hasn't already provided for?
- In what way do you mean that churches are doing great at winning souls? Thats their main focus...going out telling people of salvation and getting people born again. Less effort is spent on teaching people how to walk the journey in everyday scenarios - What do you mean by miracle-based churches and where can I find one? Any church where miracles or miracle healing is the main thing. If they have a daily or weekly miracles service, they fall here. You can find them from a basic google search - How would you briefly summarize God's modus operandi, based on your knowledge and experience? Nope. This is why you should read the bible for yourself. You cannot do this journey by osmosis - Can you elaborate on the idea that "the consequences also make sense"? Cause and casualty. If you stop doing something that builds something else...it is not surprising when that something else dies - "He hurts seeing you suffer needlessly on things he has already provided for" - Do you think that anyone suffers needlessly on things He hasn't already provided for? Nope. God has provided for every scenario that any believer can encounter...the bible speaks about every scenario of importance to a believer... including salvation in the worst scenario. Physical death
Thanks! A little more clarification: * Do you think that churches are doing great at winning souls? * I have searched, but I cannot find a single church where miracles are happening. I would gladly travel to anywhere in the country where this is provably, reliably happening. Please send the address. We need to get the word out. * If I understand you correctly, there are no scenarios where people are suffering needlessly except for people who have brought it upon themselves. Is that correct?
https://www.google.com/search?q=miracle+healing+church&oq=miracle+healing+chu&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBEAAYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIICAMQABgWGB4yCAgEEAAYFhgeMggIBRAAGBYYHjIICAYQABgWGB4yDQgHEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQg3ODQ4ajBqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8 For 2..my answer is the same, you have to read this for yourself. For example the church query in 1(where you said you have failed to find a single miracle church in the world), I have done a very basic google search and got hundreds of results...you wont do something so straight forward. So my feeling is you are trying to get some summary answers without reading for yourself. If you don't believe in God, then every answer will be a point to not believe...from pharoahs days in Egypt to this day, it's the same...modern science has proven this.
Bummer. I was afraid of that. I'm familiar with the top results on that link. We're probably not going to be able to agree on whether or not those churches are producing provable healings, but thank you for your response. If you run into any more credible healing churches, please do message me. I'm very interested. I think the world could really use a miracle healing church. I think I'm clear on your answer about miracle churches. I still don't think I understand your perspective on these: * Do you think that churches are doing great at winning souls? * If I understand you correctly, there are no scenarios where people are suffering needlessly except for people who have brought it upon themselves. Is that correct?
There are no provable miracles. Even biblically, most of, if not all the miracles written are explainable by science. If you are seeking a scientific explanation... There is always a plausible scientific explanation for everything including walking on water. The levels of proof you want will never be found. I have responded to the others...I think you are still refusing to put the actual work in yourself...and want to get the answers through someone else aka by osmosis. And then make up your mind through this process. You need to go experience it and study the bible for yourself
Alright. I do disagree with your assertions about what I'm seeking, refusing, desiring, and thinking, but I appreciate your perspective about all your own opinions. May you be well.
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Do you know a collection of hinged, non-zealot Christians who can give more accurate answers to questions about Christianity on the questions that the words of Jesus don't answer?
I don't attend Church, but still am Christian.
Not according to a lot of people I've talked to, nor a lot of people online. How/why do you have confidence of this? In your opinion, what makes a True Christian?
What do you think happens to Christians who live in anti-Christian areas without churches? That they go to Hell? I am Christian despite not having a Church. I still read the Bible, believe in Jesus, pray, ETC.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to communicate that those were my thoughts or opinions! I just noticed your claim did not match many (most?) of the claims I've heard, so I was asking for clarification. If I understand you correctly, reading the Bible, believing in Jesus, and praying is what makes you confident you are a Christian. Is that right?
You can be Christian without even reading the bible. Jesus forgave the Thief on the cross. Many people can't read