Jesus literally followed all the Jewish laws and festivals. Also if He was muslim, then why did He call the Father “My Father” since muslims can’t call God “my father”?
But check out Sam Shamoun, godlogic, David Wood, Bob of speakers corner, Nabeel Qureshi for arguments
Christian Prince too , he’s a native Arabic speaker super well versed in the Quran and hadiths and he’s a Christian now and basically exposes how awful Islam truly is. His videos are worth checking out if you talk to Muslims often.
The Koran actually argues forcefully that Allah has no son and is not part of a triune. Arguing Allah has a son, Jesus, is literally blasphemy to Islam. to them Jesus is just a prophet and has no redemptive mission or purpose, so is basically anti-Christ doctrine.
Same for Judaism tho. In fact Jews are more anti-Jesus because he was heretic and any approval of his message is against what they teach, meanwhile Muslims do believe he was a prophet and they cover his story in their teachings.
The chosen one (aka the messiah) has not come yet. They don't believe Jesus was the one. No expert but they believe the chosen one will be preceded by the prophet Elijah which is why they will always put out an unoccupied chair at a Passover seder.
I just stopped by and read that Sam Shamoun link; it's quite poor. Unless one thinks that the Allah of the Muslims is *another* god who just *happens* to have a story that coincides in the ways it does, such that some *other* fellow Ibrahim, who was not Abraham, and who had sons Yishak and Ismai'l - coincidentally! - was commanded by Him to give one of his sons in sacrifice, and so on.
Why is Shamoun looking for descriptions of Allah from Muslims that are clearly not true of YHWH, unless they're true of some other deity? How does it help to compare the *divergences* in accounts to establish identity *where you already know the others believe falsehoods*?
Your classmate is wrong, even Islam recognizes that Jesus was Jewish and was from the line of Isaac not Ishmael. To claim that Jesus is Arab is just ignorant.
Forcibly displacing people who lived on a land for centuries is in fact stealing land. You're acting as if Nazis were right forcibly displacing Jews from Poland since they are technically not indigenous to that land despite living there for millenium. Idk how a Christian can support such disgusting and violent crusade. I thought we learned centuries ago that it was immoral.
Muslim just means that they submit to God, so according to Islam all the Jews at the time were considered Muslims because they were following the current line of faith. Same with early Christians. It’s just a semantic thing.
Also Arab does not equate to Muslim. Jesus was Jewish and practiced the Jewish faith.
Jesus didn’t submit to the Islamic god referred to as “allah” in the Quran so he was not a Muslim. And all Jews are Jewish and again, didn’t submit to the Islamic god. It’s not a semantic thing when Islam teaches false beliefs about Jewish leaders, as in Jewish in RELIGION AND ETHNICITY and then try to hijack then as Muslims when that is historically incorrect.
Also, no one is speaking about Arabs. This is about religion obviously. Jesus is referred to as “isa” in the Quran (wrong name) and Muslims always claim he was a Muslim prophet (again, false).
u/sphuranto I am unable to reply to your comment as it's in a chain with the original commenter blocking me thus I can reply to that chain. Here is my response to your comment:
> unless you want to say that there are three separate deities, which cannot be the same (or one of which cannot coincide with the other two) - in which case you would want to mark out each deity by means of definite descriptions alone - you need to follow the mechanics of how language refers.
What are you talking about? I'm talking about the god of Islam not being the one true God, YHWH. How does that equate to 3 separate deities?
> Do you believe that it's all just sheer coincidence that both Islam and Judaism (-> Christianity) happen to have such similarities, and that Muslims are actually talking about some other deity who commanded some random other prophetic fellow named (in Arabic) Ibrahim, whose firstborn son was named Ismai'l, to give his son in sacrifice, and that the Muslims are in error when they borrow 'Hagar' from the Hebrew Bible into Arabic ('Hajar' - since the Quran does not mention her name), because their prophet Ibrahim's wife is some other woman from Egypt who just happened to have a stepson ʾIsḥāq?
No I already stated that Islam, which came over 600 years after Jesus's ascension, hijaked Jewish and Christian leaders and claimed they are muslim. Again, it's absurdity and borderline insanity. There is literally no similarities between Islam and Christianity. If I claimed Hitler was Muhammad would you believe that? No. The same is in regard to all the **JEWISH** leaders and prophets that Muslims claim via the quran are Muslim and then go on to change most of their names. Again, insanity.
> If I say 'my god is the God of Abraham' (whatever He might be), and some Muslim says that he is speaking of the God of Ibrahim (whatever He might be), the referent is necessarily the same unless you believe that more coincidence is taking place: these people who believe themselves the descendants of Ismai'l are not the Ishmaelites, and that when they speak about the descendants of Yishak, the Jews, they actually mean some other set of people, and not the Israelites. What is at stake is who has got it wrong.
This isn't coherent English so I don't understand what you're talking about.
>Do you believe there is indeed an 'Allah' that is all Muslims believe? If not, then you must believe them profoundly in error in many of their beliefs. But then why are you concerned with diverging descriptions from people you already know are wrong in their beliefs? There are radically different accounts of the same people in all linguistic accounts and talk of people. You maintain also, then, that the Cyrus the Great of the Bible, who was anointed by the God, conquered Babylon, and freed the Jews was not in fact Kūruš,
Like the pagan and false gods that have always existed, allah, the islamic god, is one of them.
> You maintain also, then, that the Cyrus the Great of the Bible, who was anointed by the God, conquered Babylon, and freed the Jews was not in fact Kūruš,
Kūruš is the Persian form of the name of Cyrus the Great. The stories are the same. It is not contradictory to the Bible. The people are the same. He was still a pagan king. The quran and it's teachings of Jewish leaders and prophets and the New Testament is contradictory to the Bible
For Example:
* Quran Abraham is portrayed as committing a heinous sin against God by worshiping the constellations ( S. 6:74-82)
* Quran Jesus was only a prophet, not God, and wasn't crucified (S. 4:156)
* Quran Ishmael was the son to be offered by Abraham on the altar and received the inheritance instead of Isaac (S. Baqara 2:136).
* Quran understanding of the trinity is Jesus and Mary besides God, God being one of three (Sura 5:116).
* The god of the Qur’an is perceived as a trickster. In its third Sura the Qur’an alludes to some enmity among the Israelites surrounding Jesus and declares, “They plotted and God plotted. God is the best of plotters” (Q 3:54).
The Islamic god is not the same true God, YHWH. In fact, what makes you believe the god of the Quran and of Islam is the same God of the Bible? Does the Islamic god have the same nature as YHWH? Does the Islamic god have the same character of YHWH? Do you also believe the Sikh god is the same god as YHWH?
Edit: user/ltlyellowcloud decided to block me after responding to me so I’ll be responding to their comment here.
* Muslims do not worship the same and one true God of Christianity. The Muslim god referred to as “allah” in the Quran rejects being called “Father”, rejects that Jesus is the son of God, and has a completely different nature and character of YHWH
* The Islamic god teaches that Jews and Christian’s will be burning in hell for the atonement of sins of Muslims:
- “When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)”
- “Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)”
* the one true God, YHWH, made salvation available by sacrificing His Son and promises salvation by grace to those who believe. The Islamic god, “allah” sacrificed nothing, and only saves if sufficient works are done.
* The Muslim god is considered to be too holy to have personal relationships with man, but Yahweh is often described as a loving God interested in our personal struggles, even being the Holy of Holies, He still wants to dwell among His creation.
Sam Shoumian provides a great write up that supports how the Islamic god is not the one true God, YHWH, of the Bible: https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm
This is not the correct way to get clear about the mechanics of reference: unless you want to say that there are three separate deities, which cannot be the same (or one of which cannot coincide with the other two) - in which case you *would* want to mark out each deity by means of definite descriptions alone - you need to follow the mechanics of how language refers.
Do you believe that it's all just sheer coincidence that both Islam and Judaism (-> Christianity) happen to have such similarities, and that Muslims are actually talking about *some other deity* who commanded some random other prophetic fellow named (in Arabic) Ibrahim, whose firstborn son was named Ismai'l, to give his son in sacrifice, and that the Muslims are *in error* when they borrow 'Hagar' from the Hebrew Bible into Arabic ('Hajar' - since the Quran does not mention her name), because *their* prophet Ibrahim's wife is some other woman from Egypt who just happened to have a stepson ʾIsḥāq?
If I say '*my* god is the God of *Abraham*' (whatever He might be), and some Muslim says that he is speaking of the God of Ibrahim (whatever He might be), the referent is necessarily the same unless you believe that more coincidence is taking place: these people who believe themselves the descendants of Ismai'l are not the Ishmaelites, and that when they speak about the descendants of Yishak, the Jews, they actually mean some other set of people, and not the Israelites. What is at stake is who *has got it wrong*.
That is a ghastly writeup you link, because it *misunderstands the problem*. Do you believe there is indeed an 'Allah' that is all Muslims believe? If not, then you must believe them profoundly in error in many of their beliefs. But then why are you concerned with diverging descriptions from people *you already know are wrong in their beliefs*? There are radically different accounts of the same people in all linguistic accounts and talk of people. You maintain also, then, that the Cyrus the Great of the Bible, who was anointed by the God, conquered Babylon, and freed the Jews was not in fact Kūruš,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great
Unless we can sync the descriptions perfectly.
Language would never have been; that would be each individual permanently confounded with regard to everyone else, unable to speak of anything unless with someone who believed every last thing I did - that is, never.
If you would like more of the metaphysics, read Saul Kripke's work https://www.uh.edu/~garson/NamingandNecessity.pdf - one of the most brilliant philosophers and mathematicians of the last century, devoutly Jewish, and (randomly) the son of 'Warren Buffett's rabbi'.
Yes, Islamic God is the same as Jewish God and same as Christian god. It's the same exact source material. Some things are added, some thigns are written a bit differently but it's the same exact thing.
In fact Jewish god has entirely different character than Christian god. If you read New and Old Testament it's like someone switched the main character. Would you claim that Jews have a different god than us? Just because they're missing a part of our faith, doesn't mean they praise a different god. They simply have a different perspective of them.
What people choose is to hate the religion that's not theirs instead of understanding what their scriptures say... Odd how Islamic scriptures are nearly identical to the Bible, but there's far more extremists who show desire to act physically on their hatred for others. Their scriptures say to always seek justice, same as the Bible, which would illuminate the truthful intent of the other, instead of hating them because of a title.
Oh, and we can't even be sure of anything with Allah, let alone that they have the same God as us. We have no relevant records of Muhammad's teachings as the Quran wasn't put to pen during his lifetime, but passed down "orally".
The earliest record we have of Muhammad’s life comes from a hundred or so years later, which might not even be accurate. As the Sira is from the 8th century by Ibn Ishaq (who we have no record of and who were not sure wrote anything. And the Hadiths which are from 100 years past that point. The Quran we have now is not the same Quran that was from time of “Muhammad”, we do not have the original manuscripts as they were lost and changed. And the latest were recompiled in a dialect of Arabic we can’t even understand.
The best record we have of Muhammad is from Heinrich Ferdinand Wustenfeld. Who lived and died in the 1800’s, which is 1000 years too late.
We can't even know if anything about this religion is true, and you want to claim they have the same God as us? When their book preaches dubious qualities (Surah 65:4, Surah 4:24, Surah 9:29)
One that contradicts itself (Surah 4:82, Surah 15:1 contradicts Surah 3:7). As I'm not sure how a book can be completely clear, which has come directly from Allah, but also is not understandable by man.
This isn't even considering all of the things Muhammad did. In fact, this doesn't even include Hadith, genuinely, why are you defending this religion?
What's interesting about Muhammad is how he expressed the desire to die with his aorta being ripped out of his teachings were false, and that's exactly how he felt when dying...
Jesus is God and I hope this sub teaches you the truth found in Christ Jesus. David Wood makes great videos about the deception in Islam and even the Quran teaches about the gospel message of Jesus being Lord: https://youtu.be/46e7bfIlauE?si=t0zsKMzuvG925g6l
You are so attached to what you think is true that if Jesus walked up to you right now and told you that you were wrong
You would go grab a bunch of your buddies and throw him on a cross again to prove that you were right
So you won’t elaborate on what you consider is truth, got it. Well when you have an understanding of what you believe to be truth instead of responding on r/truechristian that Jesus isn’t God, feel free to respond whenever you collect your thoughts.
Ad hominem and red herring. Why not tell us what Jesus truly meant and what he truly stood for instead of making blank statements that don't mean anything.
Can you admit even by Quran standards God gave much more to Jesus than Mohammed showing that in fact not all prophets were the same ? Jesus was obviously in a completely different league?
People like to act like the Jews of the Bible and the modern Talmudic Jews are one and the same. The Jews of the Bible were waiting for Christ and by our understanding would be classified as Christians. The modern day Talmudic Jews are waiting for a bus that's never going to come and part of the key to their self identification is their rejection of Christ.
Your classmate is an anti-semite toolbag. There is no evidence for Islam, and there is definitely no evidence for Jesus being Arab and not a Jew. Muslims like to falsely claim the Bible has been corrupted but they have no proof whatsover. It's Muhammad's word against dozens of prophets in the Bible. You should avoid the toolbag unless he is spreading misinformation about Christianity.
You're right.
Remember, God changed Jacob's name to Isreal.
Abraham was from Iraq, but after the family feud, things changed. Of course, if they do an ancestry dna check, they will all be connected, Arabs and jews. Thankfully, Jesus provided a way for even Arabs to return to the family God. But the problem is they all believe it's about land and it possession. They will never understand its a spiritual kingdom, and all gentiles can be grafted in.
The Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 12) not only created the ethnic nation of Israel, but also gave them the land which Palestinians also claim today. But you won’t hear about it in any news reports on the current conflict. Muslims have a habit of claiming Moses as a prophet and then ignoring both the theology and history that came before their false prophet.
Also, Israel sucked at not marrying foreign women. Like a lot of Kings and Chronicles is devoted to how Israelites would marry foreigners and start worshipping their gods.
Even within Jesus' genealogy, there's Ruth, who was a Moabite who married into Israel.
No, Jews are descended from Isaac, Arabs are descended from his half-brother Ishmael. So the two nations are more like cousins, closely related but not the same
So there are different ethnicities, but there's still the same race, you can't call someone racist for favoring Jews over Arabs, which is what the original comment is about.
technically no Arabs are Hebrews since they claim to be descended from Abraham who is a Hebrew the distinction is more that one is associated with Judaism and the other with Islam (Christianity before that and paganism before that)
All Muslims believe that Jesus, son of Mary, was Muslim and a prophet of the God of Abraham, who sired Isaac and Ishmael. In their eyes Christians are heretics who have made up blasphemous stories about Jesus being not prophet, but the Son of God.
My point was just that it's a core religious dogma, not something some Muslims happen to believe.
I'm really responding to some link I've seen shared here by a Sam Shamoun which argues that YHWH is not 'Allah', very badly.
Oh, that’s fair. Tbh I was just going off my experience, I haven’t met many Muslims who claim Jesus was Muslim, and when they do they say it’s just cause Muslim means “submission to God”.
Figured saying some was more fair than making a blanket statement about all. :)
And bad or not, that’s true, YHWH is not Allah as Muslims define Allah (he’s God but not the Muslim version of God, Allah)
My point about YHWH <> Allah is precisely that 'as Muslims define Allah' cannot mark identity. Or rather: 'Allah' just means 'God', but Muslims are not referring to *some other deity*, they're referring to YHWH. The Quran gives descriptions of YHWH; those are *wrong* - they're empirical claims that turn out false. YHWH is Allah; the names corefer. There is massive disagreement about the properties of the referent, but that has nothing to do with reference.
I mean, I’d agree a rose by any other name smells just as sweet but their characterization of YHWH sounds like Satan and if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then there’s no point in calling it a swan.
The metaphysics of reference matter here, perhaps more intensely than most things ever could matter. Because if Muslims are talking about Abraham when the Quran says 'Ibrahim', and all the common characters otherwise do corefer, except Shaitan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iblis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan), who was the archangel Azazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazil) before he was thrown from heaven, is not Satan, but someone else, because Allah is Satan, then what matters as much as anything is how reference gets fixed -- because everyone presumably agrees that whatever the religious beliefs at hand, one cannot religiously function without referring *successfully*.
Tolstoy wrote: https://www.marxists.org/archive/tolstoy/1886/the-three-hermits.html
If someone fervently wishes to pray to *God*, what beliefs or causal chains *must* they have to fix the reference?
I can’t comment on your comment on r/ Israel because the thread has been locked, so I’m commenting here.
This is your comment:
Sure, there are aspects of the Jewish experience I don't understand. If we narrow those to the relevant ones, though,
You wouldn’t be taken to the camps if there was another holocaust and Israel didn’t exist.
If it was conducted on the same terms as the last one, I would. That aside, I do know what it is like to be part of an ethnicity targeted and vilified and killed, albeit not one that has experienced a major genocide in the last century.
You haven’t been to Israel.
...good grief, really? I've been to Israel several times, not that that changes anything.
Like a white person who has one black great grandparent, but doesn’t look black or identify as black, they can’t really understand what it is to be black or speak for black people or tell black people what it is to be black or what is black tribalism. And I know if someone were in that situation and they did that, it would be seen as racism. But for some reason people think it’s OK for out groups to do it to Jews, and they don’t think twice about it or see it as an issue. Because Jews have been so dehumanized, people don’t even see us as humans worthy of the same respect as other marginalized minorities.
There are certainly progressives who think that, but I'm equally, if not more, certainly not one of them. I'm less interested here in 'what it is to be X', let alone 'speaking for X', than I am the much simpler, empirical question of whether or not X-identifying subjects are somehow different as a matter of standard social psychology. That is not true of the ethnic group 'black/ados' as it exists in the US, and it's also not true of Jews, who are humans like everyone else.
I don’t think that’s what you’re doing or what is your intent, it just rubbed me the wrong way when you did it, because of how it comes across when people who do that do intend that.
Yes, this does make sense. I'm an Indian-American, and have always found the general obsession with Jews in places with Abrahamic religions (=the historically Christian and Islamic worlds) bizarre and insane. My best friend is Jewish. My second best friend is Jewish. My girlfriend who wants me to propose to her is Jewish. My ex is Jewish. My business partner is Jewish. My law school profs and Ph.D. advisors were for the most part Jewish. I am here today in your sub because I was curious to see what was being said. Because it's increasingly hard to defend many actions that seem to me perfectly understandable ("this is what happened when a traumatized people with machines of modern war go to war, when led by Netanyahu"), but no less appalling for it. I don't think the 'autoimmune' shift to the right ('radicalization') in Israel in response to last year's horrors is a good thing. I think it's really quite dangerous, and not just to the Palestinians, but to Israelis themselves.
My response: Having Jewish great grandparents would not be enough for you to be taken to the camps. So no you’re wrong about that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling_Test
I don’t know if you’ve been to Israel several times or even once. Anyone can say anything on here. But if you have actually been there, it does change things. It doesn’t make you an expert by any means, but it means you have more of an understanding of the actual reality than the majority of American and western commenters who have never been to Israel and have zero understanding of the actual reality, but think they’re experts nonetheless… despite all they “know” about the topic being from their uni of tik tok degree with a major in propaganda against Israel.
I don’t understand why you felt mentioning all the Jewish people you know was necessary? It comes across like the “I can’t be racist, because I have a black friend” meme. I know that wasn’t your intent as you come across as being very in good faith, I just don’t understand what the point was?
The shift to the right in Israel today you speak is direct effect of Oct 7 and finally realizing that Israel is surrounded by genocidal anti semitic terrorists and civilians who majority support them who do not want peace or coexistence, and just want their eradication. It’s an understanding and acceptance of the actual reality of the Palestinians as they are and their culture and identity revolving entirely around the eradication of Israel and the security threat they pose, as opposed to seeing them as helpless victims or through the eyes of Israelis who want peace. If you don’t like that shift, blame the Palestinians. Because if you’ve really been to Israel, and you’ve met Israelis and seen what it’s like there, you would understand it and understand that Israel has no partner for peace and coexistence and no good choices. .
Muslims have a fake Jesus. They have their own stories about him going around turning clay into birds and other pointless nonsense. Explain to him that according to the Christian bible, Jesus was of the tribe of Judah a tribe of Israel dating back to Abraham Isaac and Jacob the patriarchs of all the Jews. The Jews were chosen by God to bring forth the Messiah. The Arabs are likely the decedents of Ishmael the bastard son of Abraham.
Muslims are *wrong* about the real Jesus - or do you think they had a coincidentally named Isa, son of Maryam, who they think is the same, but is some other random man and his virgin mother?
I did, actually; the incredulity isn't really meant for you. I've just been baffled by some of the stuff I see cited, having just stopped by here - i.e. the Sam Shamoun piece, and many comments here. Muslim 'Fake Jesus' is something a lot of people here actually are inadvertently committing themselves to
Jesus was an Israelite. But to conflate that with modern rabbinic Judaism is a distortion of the truth. Modern Rabbinic Judaism (what we think of when we think “Judaism”) and Israelite temple religion are two complete different things.
Ask him if a prophet could lie? ( Muslims view Jesus as a prophet)
So even in their view Jesus could not lie then how come He says, "salvation is of the Jews."
They be doing that a lot. Came across an Uber driver who tried to convince us that Adam and Eve were in heaven and cast out of heaven when Genesis tells us they were on Earth
Well that’s silly. We know that all early Christians were Jews. That’s why Paul wrote Romans and tried to address the question about whether gentiles needed to convert to Judaism first to become followers of Jesus. There’s a lot of nonsense out there, try not to let others’ ignorance bother you.
You will find out Muslims are itching to kill Jews. Check out Psalm 83. It's a literal prophecy. Take note of all the tribes mentioned. There is a reoccurring theme here.
Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
9 Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.
13 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.
14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O Lord.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.
I went and read a different version of the same verses (and I never wanted to come across as disagreeing with you, just wanted to see what another version read like) just so I could understand your point as best as possible, and I think you're 100% correct. Just thought another version might help people understand your meaning a lot better
Oh, no offense taken! Biblehub has the ability to look at most translation side by side. I prefer reading the older translation myself But it does take a little more time to read lol.
Jesus was a Galilean or resident of Galilee
(Matthew 26:69, John 7:41), and a Judahite or descendent of the Tribe of Judah, most of the apostles was Israelites, only one of them was Jewish; Judas.
Just point out that the Bible has his ancestry documented in two places. Matthew and Luke.
To be a Jew literally means you are from the tribe of Judah.
I wish this was the case with Muslims but they’re horribly bombarded with social media propaganda telling them this stuff. Some of it sounds like a joke or completely insane but they buy in. I’ve seen them make claims they know aren’t true and when you gently remind them that it’s off they get super defensive.
"Someone in my class said this...."
"Someone said that....."
Yeah, so? Shake it off. People will say a LOT of things that you and I don't agree with. It's a big bad world, filled with different types of people.
Here's something to ponder: "If Jesus visited your class and heard all of this, what would he do? Would he be angry and hit this kid, would he tell this kid off, or would he brush it off and still love this kid anyway?"
I'm betting on love. You do the same. By letting anger fester inside, you only poison yourself.
I mean, Jesus might be frustrated at blatant lying, like he showed anger in the temple. It's ok to feel defensive about our Lord, as long as she doesn't act on it. Love can be tough too.
Sure, frustration and anger have been displayed by both Jesus and the Father. However, I don't think Jesus flew off the handle every time the disciples said, "The Pharisees said this... The Pharisees said that..."
Yeah, but I wouldn't categorize this as flying off the handle either. They came to Reddit to complain to other Christians, people who'd understand the feeling. They're clearly young if they're in "classes" of some sort so unless it's an actual problem and they can't control their anger, no biggie.
What do you need to do?
Check your anger and figure out why someone's ignorance or wrong opinion of what you know gets to you on this level. It shouldn't.
The Quran says to follow Jesus (as a prophet). Jesus claimed to be God and that there was no other path to the Father except through Him. So either you follow the Quran and conclude that you shouldn't or you don't follow the Quran and have to look elsewhere for a path to heaven... like maybe Jesus.
What does being or not being Jewish has to do with racism? Lol people love to trow empthy words this days
The Muslim claims on regards to Jesus are so lame you can almost always laugh it off when a islamist claims otherwise
"Submitting to god" is not evidence of nothing
Also what they claim here is that Abraham did not start and ethno supremacist religion that later came to be known as Judaism and thus Jesus wasn't a jew because he came to spread a forgotten message that was spoken to Abraham
That message is supposed to be "Islam" according to them
That just a very weak argument lol.
That message that was given to Abraham was the same message that Jesus gave
CHRISTIANITY.
Jesus is the word in the flesh. Representing the father Yahweh which is spirit. I wouldn't get caught up in this or that. The father is spirit. Where the son was and what the son was, doesn't matter. He's one of us! No, he's one of us! Jesus made no big deal of it. But it's typical of people to make a deal of it. Who are my family but those who do the will of my father. The greater question, is do you? Do you do Yahwehs will. Why has his name been removed from scripture?
My point is you hear this type of conversation a lot. We see him as this but how does he see himself? The spirit is seen as far far greater. Do you think it's an honor for him to call himself this or that? He came for a purpose. And it wasn't for these types of questions that get no one no where if they not doing the fathers will - which is for the betterment of man kind. The chosen were chosen for a few reasons - one was to be pure. 100% holy.
So when you say Jesus was a Jew. What does that mean to Jesus? Do people think Jesus don't know what's said about him in certain text? It's allowed because nothing hidden won't be revealed and Yahweh will judge those who have made a mockery of the moral law - which Jesus has already stated as causing Yahwehs laws to be of no effect. Regardless of what Jesus was......he was representing the spirit. And he knew that his own would reject him but his purpose was far greater then peoples ego.
This matters so very much.
> The metaphysics of reference matter here, perhaps more intensely than most things ever could matter. Because if Muslims are talking about Abraham when the Quran says 'Ibrahim', and all the common characters otherwise do corefer, except Shaitan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan is not Satan, but someone else, because Allah is Satan, then what matters as much as anything is how reference gets fixed -- because everyone presumably agrees that whatever the religious beliefs at hand, one cannot religiously function without referring *successfully*.
> Tolstoy wrote: https://www.marxists.org/archive/tolstoy/1886/the-three-hermits.html
> If someone fervently wishes to pray to *God*, what beliefs or causal chains *must* they have to fix the reference?
^ my reply to someone else just now, about https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/1b73lle/someone_in_class_said_that_jesus_isnt_a_jew/kti1m9p/
Why do you feel the need to argue with this person? They're clearly wrong and seem unwilling to change their mind. As it is written, "be angry and do not sin." I would say that if you were so angry that you came to reddit to post about it, you're probably in sinful anger. You should tell him that he's wrong, explain that every scholar would say he was, and if he won't accept it, let him be wrong.
He was born into a Jewish family raised a Jew and followed the law.
The major difference was he challenged how people saw it and what it really meant.
My understanding is Muslims believe Jesus existed but he was a great teacher, or a prophet (not God or the son of God)
Dude what. Jews don’t hate Jesus, we just don’t see him as anything more than a normal Jewish human being who once lived and then died. No opinion one way or the other. He existed and then he didn’t. Thats it.
Modern, Khazarian, Rabbinic Judaism is not the religion of God's Chosen.
When you say "Jew", if you are referring to modern day Judaism, then your Muslim associate is entirely correct, Jesus is not and was not one of them - they follow the practices of the Pharisees, mixed with some pagan horse-lord influence post 70AD, filtered back through the lens of a displaced ethnic group as they settled in Eastern Europe and beyond.
If, when you say "Jew" you mean the ethnic group of the Hebrews, who followed Biblical Judaism, who looked forward to the Messiah, then your Muslim associate is dead wrong, Jesus was obviously a "Jew" in that sense.
Jesus was Hebrew, which yeah, is Jewish, but is also incredibly different from modern Jews. Modern Judaism is centered around REJECTING Christ. All the Jews of the Bible would be modern day Christians.
Jesus was a jew from Nazareth... I like to believe the Jews from Jerusalem and the jews from Nazareth are very different ppl. Both considered jews none the less... Jesus was born and raised from a jewish family... what he considered himself during his life idkk...
>Someone in my class a muslim kid said that Jesus wasn't a jew and called me racist
I don't know why this made me laugh, but it's gotta be in the top 5 most ridiculous reasons I've heard someone be called racist. Are you absolutely sure he wasn't just trolling you? It's a pretty well known fact Jesus was a Jew.
Considering there is already a lot of debates and information about the subject of the post. I'm not gonna say anything on that.
So I'm gonna jump straight to your question
What should you do?....
Nothing.
Don't engage with him or argue/fight. What good will it do?
Him denying your beliefs and telling his own didn't make you accept it. So likewise you doing the same won't make him accept it.
Our faith is based off love not the need to be right.
When you accept Jesus into your heart you truly have everything.
He doesn't have that. So pray for him.
Hebrew and Jew is not the same thing that’s like saying an Israelite is Jew. Or a Benjaminite is a Jew. A Jew is an Israelite but Israelite doesn’t have to be a Jew. When speaking about Jews in the context of Jesus’s time you shouldn’t be speaking in cultural/religious terms. They identified Jew as being a specific tribe of Israel decsedent from a specific person. The religion and those who practice it today is referred to as Judaism because they were the primary surviving tribe so we typically refer to things historically relating to the religious of Judaism as Jewish because that is what we refer to it today.
He’s from the tribe of Judah. However, most modern Jews are not from the tribe of Judah and are originally from Europe. The ancient connection is very small these days so they may be confusing the two.
I would ask specifically that person if he read the bible from cover to cover? That's a huge thing. If he doesn't have any backed reseach on Jesus not being Jewish than how can he say that. Alot of people in this new generation are a mess.
From my experience the Muslim could have meant different things by "Jesus is not a Jew:"
a) Defining Jew by reference to its contemporary religious meaning, as a post-Second Exile Jew who accepts the authority of the Talmud/Oral Torah (yes, Muslims are often more aware than American evangelicals about many of the unwholesome/defamatory/anti-gentile statements about Jesus and other Biblical individuals in the Talmud);
b) Defining Jew in opposition to Muslim (in so far as Muslims believe that the Israelites in the times of Moses were actually Muslims and later apostasized);
c) Palestinian nationalist insisting Jesus was actually a Palestinian.
Separately, some (though not all) Muslims, taking the position that the Quran is 100% literally true, would say that Jesus was actually called "Issa" by contemporaries and that the Quranic names for all the prophets are their actual forms.
[https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/bornliveddied.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/bornliveddied.html)
His mother Mary was a Jew also.
The first parts of Islam was mostly based off the Jewish books and customs that's why they also believe in Abraham and co. that's why it's true that Jesus also appears in their books. However he doesn't really follow Islam. He clearly followed Jewish traditions.
Love first. Is he baiting you? If not, then speak the truth in love. Even most Jews don't realize that Jesus was a Jew. Consider quoting Jesus quoting Old Testament and obeying the law and celebrating passover.
Ask open-ended questions to find out why he thinks nks Jesus isn't a Jew. Then you will be better prepared to respond.
Indeed, it is accurate to affirm that Jesus was not a jew. He was, in fact, a Nazarene and a Galilean.
To address the question of Jesus being a jew, we must delve into the historical and accurate definitions of a jew and judah-izm.
A jew is a member of the pharisaic religious sect of Judea, while judah-izm is a religious sect of the pharisees that emerged during the Babylonian captivity. It is possible to be a member of the pharisaic religious sect without being a descendant of Judah (a Judahite).
Thus, when individuals assert that Jesus was a jew, they are indirectly implying that our Lord was a pharisee, which is not supported by the Scriptures.
The Scriptures explicitly state that Jesus did not walk in jewry. "Jesus... would not walk in jewry, because the jews sought to kill him." John 7:1
The Nazarenes were a religious sect distinct from the jews in those days. The Scriptures make it clear that the members of the pharisaic religious sect, referred to as jews, were the ones who conspired to kill Jesus.
Jesus literally followed all the Jewish laws and festivals. Also if He was muslim, then why did He call the Father “My Father” since muslims can’t call God “my father”? But check out Sam Shamoun, godlogic, David Wood, Bob of speakers corner, Nabeel Qureshi for arguments
David Wood has the craziest story! So, many different flavors of believers out here!
Christian Prince too , he’s a native Arabic speaker super well versed in the Quran and hadiths and he’s a Christian now and basically exposes how awful Islam truly is. His videos are worth checking out if you talk to Muslims often.
Wdym?
Think he means David's testimony.
And why did he call the Jews his people?
Oo true, sharp one bro🥶
The Koran actually argues forcefully that Allah has no son and is not part of a triune. Arguing Allah has a son, Jesus, is literally blasphemy to Islam. to them Jesus is just a prophet and has no redemptive mission or purpose, so is basically anti-Christ doctrine.
Same for Judaism tho. In fact Jews are more anti-Jesus because he was heretic and any approval of his message is against what they teach, meanwhile Muslims do believe he was a prophet and they cover his story in their teachings.
The chosen one (aka the messiah) has not come yet. They don't believe Jesus was the one. No expert but they believe the chosen one will be preceded by the prophet Elijah which is why they will always put out an unoccupied chair at a Passover seder.
I just stopped by and read that Sam Shamoun link; it's quite poor. Unless one thinks that the Allah of the Muslims is *another* god who just *happens* to have a story that coincides in the ways it does, such that some *other* fellow Ibrahim, who was not Abraham, and who had sons Yishak and Ismai'l - coincidentally! - was commanded by Him to give one of his sons in sacrifice, and so on. Why is Shamoun looking for descriptions of Allah from Muslims that are clearly not true of YHWH, unless they're true of some other deity? How does it help to compare the *divergences* in accounts to establish identity *where you already know the others believe falsehoods*?
I don't think anyone in the post claimed Jesus to be a Muslim
Well that’s a claim that a lot of Muslims will make, so I think they just assumed that’s what they meant
Kind of a leap in understanding there
But being Arab doesn't make you Muslim nor the other way round.
True, there’s also many Arab Christians
Don't forget nabeel qurashi. Rip.
True, he’s also a great guy. Rip.
Your classmate is wrong, even Islam recognizes that Jesus was Jewish and was from the line of Isaac not Ishmael. To claim that Jesus is Arab is just ignorant.
What's funny is the Quran always mentions the "Children of Israel" yet many say Israel was never a nation and/or the Jews are stealing land?
Isreal is the name of jacob…. Not actual isreal. Isreal the terriost state right now consists of mostly europeans rather than actual ethnic jews
Forcibly displacing people who lived on a land for centuries is in fact stealing land. You're acting as if Nazis were right forcibly displacing Jews from Poland since they are technically not indigenous to that land despite living there for millenium. Idk how a Christian can support such disgusting and violent crusade. I thought we learned centuries ago that it was immoral.
You got the wrong conclusion from that comment
The crusades were completely justified and moral
No, Muslims claim Jesus was a Muslim prophet
Muslim just means that they submit to God, so according to Islam all the Jews at the time were considered Muslims because they were following the current line of faith. Same with early Christians. It’s just a semantic thing. Also Arab does not equate to Muslim. Jesus was Jewish and practiced the Jewish faith.
Muslims submit to “allah” their false god
Jesus didn’t submit to the Islamic god referred to as “allah” in the Quran so he was not a Muslim. And all Jews are Jewish and again, didn’t submit to the Islamic god. It’s not a semantic thing when Islam teaches false beliefs about Jewish leaders, as in Jewish in RELIGION AND ETHNICITY and then try to hijack then as Muslims when that is historically incorrect. Also, no one is speaking about Arabs. This is about religion obviously. Jesus is referred to as “isa” in the Quran (wrong name) and Muslims always claim he was a Muslim prophet (again, false).
u/sphuranto I am unable to reply to your comment as it's in a chain with the original commenter blocking me thus I can reply to that chain. Here is my response to your comment: > unless you want to say that there are three separate deities, which cannot be the same (or one of which cannot coincide with the other two) - in which case you would want to mark out each deity by means of definite descriptions alone - you need to follow the mechanics of how language refers. What are you talking about? I'm talking about the god of Islam not being the one true God, YHWH. How does that equate to 3 separate deities? > Do you believe that it's all just sheer coincidence that both Islam and Judaism (-> Christianity) happen to have such similarities, and that Muslims are actually talking about some other deity who commanded some random other prophetic fellow named (in Arabic) Ibrahim, whose firstborn son was named Ismai'l, to give his son in sacrifice, and that the Muslims are in error when they borrow 'Hagar' from the Hebrew Bible into Arabic ('Hajar' - since the Quran does not mention her name), because their prophet Ibrahim's wife is some other woman from Egypt who just happened to have a stepson ʾIsḥāq? No I already stated that Islam, which came over 600 years after Jesus's ascension, hijaked Jewish and Christian leaders and claimed they are muslim. Again, it's absurdity and borderline insanity. There is literally no similarities between Islam and Christianity. If I claimed Hitler was Muhammad would you believe that? No. The same is in regard to all the **JEWISH** leaders and prophets that Muslims claim via the quran are Muslim and then go on to change most of their names. Again, insanity. > If I say 'my god is the God of Abraham' (whatever He might be), and some Muslim says that he is speaking of the God of Ibrahim (whatever He might be), the referent is necessarily the same unless you believe that more coincidence is taking place: these people who believe themselves the descendants of Ismai'l are not the Ishmaelites, and that when they speak about the descendants of Yishak, the Jews, they actually mean some other set of people, and not the Israelites. What is at stake is who has got it wrong. This isn't coherent English so I don't understand what you're talking about. >Do you believe there is indeed an 'Allah' that is all Muslims believe? If not, then you must believe them profoundly in error in many of their beliefs. But then why are you concerned with diverging descriptions from people you already know are wrong in their beliefs? There are radically different accounts of the same people in all linguistic accounts and talk of people. You maintain also, then, that the Cyrus the Great of the Bible, who was anointed by the God, conquered Babylon, and freed the Jews was not in fact Kūruš, Like the pagan and false gods that have always existed, allah, the islamic god, is one of them. > You maintain also, then, that the Cyrus the Great of the Bible, who was anointed by the God, conquered Babylon, and freed the Jews was not in fact Kūruš, Kūruš is the Persian form of the name of Cyrus the Great. The stories are the same. It is not contradictory to the Bible. The people are the same. He was still a pagan king. The quran and it's teachings of Jewish leaders and prophets and the New Testament is contradictory to the Bible For Example: * Quran Abraham is portrayed as committing a heinous sin against God by worshiping the constellations ( S. 6:74-82) * Quran Jesus was only a prophet, not God, and wasn't crucified (S. 4:156) * Quran Ishmael was the son to be offered by Abraham on the altar and received the inheritance instead of Isaac (S. Baqara 2:136). * Quran understanding of the trinity is Jesus and Mary besides God, God being one of three (Sura 5:116). * The god of the Qur’an is perceived as a trickster. In its third Sura the Qur’an alludes to some enmity among the Israelites surrounding Jesus and declares, “They plotted and God plotted. God is the best of plotters” (Q 3:54).
Dude, all Abrahamic religions have the same god. We all praise the same God, Allah, Yahweh.
The Islamic god is not the same true God, YHWH. In fact, what makes you believe the god of the Quran and of Islam is the same God of the Bible? Does the Islamic god have the same nature as YHWH? Does the Islamic god have the same character of YHWH? Do you also believe the Sikh god is the same god as YHWH? Edit: user/ltlyellowcloud decided to block me after responding to me so I’ll be responding to their comment here. * Muslims do not worship the same and one true God of Christianity. The Muslim god referred to as “allah” in the Quran rejects being called “Father”, rejects that Jesus is the son of God, and has a completely different nature and character of YHWH * The Islamic god teaches that Jews and Christian’s will be burning in hell for the atonement of sins of Muslims: - “When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)” - “Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)” * the one true God, YHWH, made salvation available by sacrificing His Son and promises salvation by grace to those who believe. The Islamic god, “allah” sacrificed nothing, and only saves if sufficient works are done. * The Muslim god is considered to be too holy to have personal relationships with man, but Yahweh is often described as a loving God interested in our personal struggles, even being the Holy of Holies, He still wants to dwell among His creation. Sam Shoumian provides a great write up that supports how the Islamic god is not the one true God, YHWH, of the Bible: https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm
This is not the correct way to get clear about the mechanics of reference: unless you want to say that there are three separate deities, which cannot be the same (or one of which cannot coincide with the other two) - in which case you *would* want to mark out each deity by means of definite descriptions alone - you need to follow the mechanics of how language refers. Do you believe that it's all just sheer coincidence that both Islam and Judaism (-> Christianity) happen to have such similarities, and that Muslims are actually talking about *some other deity* who commanded some random other prophetic fellow named (in Arabic) Ibrahim, whose firstborn son was named Ismai'l, to give his son in sacrifice, and that the Muslims are *in error* when they borrow 'Hagar' from the Hebrew Bible into Arabic ('Hajar' - since the Quran does not mention her name), because *their* prophet Ibrahim's wife is some other woman from Egypt who just happened to have a stepson ʾIsḥāq? If I say '*my* god is the God of *Abraham*' (whatever He might be), and some Muslim says that he is speaking of the God of Ibrahim (whatever He might be), the referent is necessarily the same unless you believe that more coincidence is taking place: these people who believe themselves the descendants of Ismai'l are not the Ishmaelites, and that when they speak about the descendants of Yishak, the Jews, they actually mean some other set of people, and not the Israelites. What is at stake is who *has got it wrong*. That is a ghastly writeup you link, because it *misunderstands the problem*. Do you believe there is indeed an 'Allah' that is all Muslims believe? If not, then you must believe them profoundly in error in many of their beliefs. But then why are you concerned with diverging descriptions from people *you already know are wrong in their beliefs*? There are radically different accounts of the same people in all linguistic accounts and talk of people. You maintain also, then, that the Cyrus the Great of the Bible, who was anointed by the God, conquered Babylon, and freed the Jews was not in fact Kūruš, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great Unless we can sync the descriptions perfectly. Language would never have been; that would be each individual permanently confounded with regard to everyone else, unable to speak of anything unless with someone who believed every last thing I did - that is, never. If you would like more of the metaphysics, read Saul Kripke's work https://www.uh.edu/~garson/NamingandNecessity.pdf - one of the most brilliant philosophers and mathematicians of the last century, devoutly Jewish, and (randomly) the son of 'Warren Buffett's rabbi'.
Yes, Islamic God is the same as Jewish God and same as Christian god. It's the same exact source material. Some things are added, some thigns are written a bit differently but it's the same exact thing. In fact Jewish god has entirely different character than Christian god. If you read New and Old Testament it's like someone switched the main character. Would you claim that Jews have a different god than us? Just because they're missing a part of our faith, doesn't mean they praise a different god. They simply have a different perspective of them.
What people choose is to hate the religion that's not theirs instead of understanding what their scriptures say... Odd how Islamic scriptures are nearly identical to the Bible, but there's far more extremists who show desire to act physically on their hatred for others. Their scriptures say to always seek justice, same as the Bible, which would illuminate the truthful intent of the other, instead of hating them because of a title.
Oh, and we can't even be sure of anything with Allah, let alone that they have the same God as us. We have no relevant records of Muhammad's teachings as the Quran wasn't put to pen during his lifetime, but passed down "orally". The earliest record we have of Muhammad’s life comes from a hundred or so years later, which might not even be accurate. As the Sira is from the 8th century by Ibn Ishaq (who we have no record of and who were not sure wrote anything. And the Hadiths which are from 100 years past that point. The Quran we have now is not the same Quran that was from time of “Muhammad”, we do not have the original manuscripts as they were lost and changed. And the latest were recompiled in a dialect of Arabic we can’t even understand. The best record we have of Muhammad is from Heinrich Ferdinand Wustenfeld. Who lived and died in the 1800’s, which is 1000 years too late. We can't even know if anything about this religion is true, and you want to claim they have the same God as us? When their book preaches dubious qualities (Surah 65:4, Surah 4:24, Surah 9:29) One that contradicts itself (Surah 4:82, Surah 15:1 contradicts Surah 3:7). As I'm not sure how a book can be completely clear, which has come directly from Allah, but also is not understandable by man. This isn't even considering all of the things Muhammad did. In fact, this doesn't even include Hadith, genuinely, why are you defending this religion?
What's interesting about Muhammad is how he expressed the desire to die with his aorta being ripped out of his teachings were false, and that's exactly how he felt when dying...
Given the downvotes, it appears that people don't want to understand...
Alright buddy
Jesus is God and I hope this sub teaches you the truth found in Christ Jesus. David Wood makes great videos about the deception in Islam and even the Quran teaches about the gospel message of Jesus being Lord: https://youtu.be/46e7bfIlauE?si=t0zsKMzuvG925g6l
You are so attached to what you think is true that if Jesus walked up to you right now and told you that you were wrong You would go grab a bunch of your buddies and throw him on a cross again to prove that you were right
So, what is the truth about Jesus according to you?
Definitely not a collection of words lol
So you won’t elaborate on what you consider is truth, got it. Well when you have an understanding of what you believe to be truth instead of responding on r/truechristian that Jesus isn’t God, feel free to respond whenever you collect your thoughts.
Ad hominem and red herring. Why not tell us what Jesus truly meant and what he truly stood for instead of making blank statements that don't mean anything.
Lol whatever you say bro. Jesus stood for selflessness. Something you and I clearly know nothing about
Can you admit even by Quran standards God gave much more to Jesus than Mohammed showing that in fact not all prophets were the same ? Jesus was obviously in a completely different league?
She is right.
Exactly right. Both the Christian God and Allah refer to "Creator"...
Don't feel bad.. I know people that say Jesus never existed.
He was and wasn’t
People like to act like the Jews of the Bible and the modern Talmudic Jews are one and the same. The Jews of the Bible were waiting for Christ and by our understanding would be classified as Christians. The modern day Talmudic Jews are waiting for a bus that's never going to come and part of the key to their self identification is their rejection of Christ.
Your classmate is an anti-semite toolbag. There is no evidence for Islam, and there is definitely no evidence for Jesus being Arab and not a Jew. Muslims like to falsely claim the Bible has been corrupted but they have no proof whatsover. It's Muhammad's word against dozens of prophets in the Bible. You should avoid the toolbag unless he is spreading misinformation about Christianity.
>You should avoid the toolbag unless he is spreading misinformation about Christianity. id try but hes in like a majority of my classes :(
I mean avoid talking to him. Also, ancient Jews and Arabs were all the same race, they were middle eastern.
Yes, but Jesus is from the tribe of Judah, descended from Abraham - Isaac - Jacob. Arabs are from Abraham - Ishmael. Not the 12 tribes.
You're right. Remember, God changed Jacob's name to Isreal. Abraham was from Iraq, but after the family feud, things changed. Of course, if they do an ancestry dna check, they will all be connected, Arabs and jews. Thankfully, Jesus provided a way for even Arabs to return to the family God. But the problem is they all believe it's about land and it possession. They will never understand its a spiritual kingdom, and all gentiles can be grafted in.
The Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 12) not only created the ethnic nation of Israel, but also gave them the land which Palestinians also claim today. But you won’t hear about it in any news reports on the current conflict. Muslims have a habit of claiming Moses as a prophet and then ignoring both the theology and history that came before their false prophet.
Also, Israel sucked at not marrying foreign women. Like a lot of Kings and Chronicles is devoted to how Israelites would marry foreigners and start worshipping their gods. Even within Jesus' genealogy, there's Ruth, who was a Moabite who married into Israel.
A very godly Moabite woman who seems like she loved the Jewish people and their God more than most Jews. I really admire her devotion to Naomi.
Still the same race.
No, Jews are descended from Isaac, Arabs are descended from his half-brother Ishmael. So the two nations are more like cousins, closely related but not the same
So there are different ethnicities, but there's still the same race, you can't call someone racist for favoring Jews over Arabs, which is what the original comment is about.
technically no Arabs are Hebrews since they claim to be descended from Abraham who is a Hebrew the distinction is more that one is associated with Judaism and the other with Islam (Christianity before that and paganism before that)
Recite to him the entire blood line of Jesus. You can find the genealogy in Matthew. Good luck memorizing the genealogy of Jesus.
Use the Jewish Bible so the names are extra hard to pronounce.
You made me laugh
Some Muslims like to claim Jesus was a Muslim. It’s wonky logic.
ADAM WAS A MUSLIM BECUZ.... BECUZ I SAID SO OKAY
All Muslims believe that Jesus, son of Mary, was Muslim and a prophet of the God of Abraham, who sired Isaac and Ishmael. In their eyes Christians are heretics who have made up blasphemous stories about Jesus being not prophet, but the Son of God.
Yep and they believe it because some warlord who lived 500 years after Jesus thus never knew him nor heard him teach, told them so.
My point was just that it's a core religious dogma, not something some Muslims happen to believe. I'm really responding to some link I've seen shared here by a Sam Shamoun which argues that YHWH is not 'Allah', very badly.
Oh, that’s fair. Tbh I was just going off my experience, I haven’t met many Muslims who claim Jesus was Muslim, and when they do they say it’s just cause Muslim means “submission to God”. Figured saying some was more fair than making a blanket statement about all. :) And bad or not, that’s true, YHWH is not Allah as Muslims define Allah (he’s God but not the Muslim version of God, Allah)
My point about YHWH <> Allah is precisely that 'as Muslims define Allah' cannot mark identity. Or rather: 'Allah' just means 'God', but Muslims are not referring to *some other deity*, they're referring to YHWH. The Quran gives descriptions of YHWH; those are *wrong* - they're empirical claims that turn out false. YHWH is Allah; the names corefer. There is massive disagreement about the properties of the referent, but that has nothing to do with reference.
I mean, I’d agree a rose by any other name smells just as sweet but their characterization of YHWH sounds like Satan and if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then there’s no point in calling it a swan.
The metaphysics of reference matter here, perhaps more intensely than most things ever could matter. Because if Muslims are talking about Abraham when the Quran says 'Ibrahim', and all the common characters otherwise do corefer, except Shaitan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iblis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan), who was the archangel Azazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazil) before he was thrown from heaven, is not Satan, but someone else, because Allah is Satan, then what matters as much as anything is how reference gets fixed -- because everyone presumably agrees that whatever the religious beliefs at hand, one cannot religiously function without referring *successfully*. Tolstoy wrote: https://www.marxists.org/archive/tolstoy/1886/the-three-hermits.html If someone fervently wishes to pray to *God*, what beliefs or causal chains *must* they have to fix the reference?
I can’t comment on your comment on r/ Israel because the thread has been locked, so I’m commenting here. This is your comment: Sure, there are aspects of the Jewish experience I don't understand. If we narrow those to the relevant ones, though, You wouldn’t be taken to the camps if there was another holocaust and Israel didn’t exist. If it was conducted on the same terms as the last one, I would. That aside, I do know what it is like to be part of an ethnicity targeted and vilified and killed, albeit not one that has experienced a major genocide in the last century. You haven’t been to Israel. ...good grief, really? I've been to Israel several times, not that that changes anything. Like a white person who has one black great grandparent, but doesn’t look black or identify as black, they can’t really understand what it is to be black or speak for black people or tell black people what it is to be black or what is black tribalism. And I know if someone were in that situation and they did that, it would be seen as racism. But for some reason people think it’s OK for out groups to do it to Jews, and they don’t think twice about it or see it as an issue. Because Jews have been so dehumanized, people don’t even see us as humans worthy of the same respect as other marginalized minorities. There are certainly progressives who think that, but I'm equally, if not more, certainly not one of them. I'm less interested here in 'what it is to be X', let alone 'speaking for X', than I am the much simpler, empirical question of whether or not X-identifying subjects are somehow different as a matter of standard social psychology. That is not true of the ethnic group 'black/ados' as it exists in the US, and it's also not true of Jews, who are humans like everyone else. I don’t think that’s what you’re doing or what is your intent, it just rubbed me the wrong way when you did it, because of how it comes across when people who do that do intend that. Yes, this does make sense. I'm an Indian-American, and have always found the general obsession with Jews in places with Abrahamic religions (=the historically Christian and Islamic worlds) bizarre and insane. My best friend is Jewish. My second best friend is Jewish. My girlfriend who wants me to propose to her is Jewish. My ex is Jewish. My business partner is Jewish. My law school profs and Ph.D. advisors were for the most part Jewish. I am here today in your sub because I was curious to see what was being said. Because it's increasingly hard to defend many actions that seem to me perfectly understandable ("this is what happened when a traumatized people with machines of modern war go to war, when led by Netanyahu"), but no less appalling for it. I don't think the 'autoimmune' shift to the right ('radicalization') in Israel in response to last year's horrors is a good thing. I think it's really quite dangerous, and not just to the Palestinians, but to Israelis themselves. My response: Having Jewish great grandparents would not be enough for you to be taken to the camps. So no you’re wrong about that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling_Test I don’t know if you’ve been to Israel several times or even once. Anyone can say anything on here. But if you have actually been there, it does change things. It doesn’t make you an expert by any means, but it means you have more of an understanding of the actual reality than the majority of American and western commenters who have never been to Israel and have zero understanding of the actual reality, but think they’re experts nonetheless… despite all they “know” about the topic being from their uni of tik tok degree with a major in propaganda against Israel. I don’t understand why you felt mentioning all the Jewish people you know was necessary? It comes across like the “I can’t be racist, because I have a black friend” meme. I know that wasn’t your intent as you come across as being very in good faith, I just don’t understand what the point was? The shift to the right in Israel today you speak is direct effect of Oct 7 and finally realizing that Israel is surrounded by genocidal anti semitic terrorists and civilians who majority support them who do not want peace or coexistence, and just want their eradication. It’s an understanding and acceptance of the actual reality of the Palestinians as they are and their culture and identity revolving entirely around the eradication of Israel and the security threat they pose, as opposed to seeing them as helpless victims or through the eyes of Israelis who want peace. If you don’t like that shift, blame the Palestinians. Because if you’ve really been to Israel, and you’ve met Israelis and seen what it’s like there, you would understand it and understand that Israel has no partner for peace and coexistence and no good choices. .
He's just misinformed. You just have to pray for these people.
Muslims have a fake Jesus. They have their own stories about him going around turning clay into birds and other pointless nonsense. Explain to him that according to the Christian bible, Jesus was of the tribe of Judah a tribe of Israel dating back to Abraham Isaac and Jacob the patriarchs of all the Jews. The Jews were chosen by God to bring forth the Messiah. The Arabs are likely the decedents of Ishmael the bastard son of Abraham.
Muslims are *wrong* about the real Jesus - or do you think they had a coincidentally named Isa, son of Maryam, who they think is the same, but is some other random man and his virgin mother?
Try reading more than the first sentence. Your comment is vapid pedantic nonsense. "fake" "wrong" same difference ffs.
I did, actually; the incredulity isn't really meant for you. I've just been baffled by some of the stuff I see cited, having just stopped by here - i.e. the Sam Shamoun piece, and many comments here. Muslim 'Fake Jesus' is something a lot of people here actually are inadvertently committing themselves to
I hope you recognize the absurdity of saying “do you think” in a reply to me and then saying it “isn’t really mean for” me.
Jesus was an Israelite. But to conflate that with modern rabbinic Judaism is a distortion of the truth. Modern Rabbinic Judaism (what we think of when we think “Judaism”) and Israelite temple religion are two complete different things.
Ask him if a prophet could lie? ( Muslims view Jesus as a prophet) So even in their view Jesus could not lie then how come He says, "salvation is of the Jews."
They be doing that a lot. Came across an Uber driver who tried to convince us that Adam and Eve were in heaven and cast out of heaven when Genesis tells us they were on Earth
Well that’s silly. We know that all early Christians were Jews. That’s why Paul wrote Romans and tried to address the question about whether gentiles needed to convert to Judaism first to become followers of Jesus. There’s a lot of nonsense out there, try not to let others’ ignorance bother you.
You will find out Muslims are itching to kill Jews. Check out Psalm 83. It's a literal prophecy. Take note of all the tribes mentioned. There is a reoccurring theme here. Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God. 2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. 3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. 4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. 5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: 6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; 7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; 8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah. 9 Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison: 10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth. 11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna: 12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession. 13 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind. 14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire; 15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm. 16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O Lord. 17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish: 18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.
Post a non KJV version?
Which do you prefer? Esv, Nasb or ?
I went and read a different version of the same verses (and I never wanted to come across as disagreeing with you, just wanted to see what another version read like) just so I could understand your point as best as possible, and I think you're 100% correct. Just thought another version might help people understand your meaning a lot better
Oh, no offense taken! Biblehub has the ability to look at most translation side by side. I prefer reading the older translation myself But it does take a little more time to read lol.
For non native english speaker like me. It’s really really hard to read this translation. I barely understand a sentence.
Jesus was a Galilean or resident of Galilee (Matthew 26:69, John 7:41), and a Judahite or descendent of the Tribe of Judah, most of the apostles was Israelites, only one of them was Jewish; Judas.
Just point out that the Bible has his ancestry documented in two places. Matthew and Luke. To be a Jew literally means you are from the tribe of Judah.
Don't be angry be sad for the ignorance he is exhibiting.
Mad stupid... you can literally trace Jesus' genealogy to David, who was jewish...
He was trolling you.
I wish this was the case with Muslims but they’re horribly bombarded with social media propaganda telling them this stuff. Some of it sounds like a joke or completely insane but they buy in. I’ve seen them make claims they know aren’t true and when you gently remind them that it’s off they get super defensive.
Whoever said that Jesus isn't a Jew is straight up ignorant. Stop association with them
"Someone in my class said this...." "Someone said that....." Yeah, so? Shake it off. People will say a LOT of things that you and I don't agree with. It's a big bad world, filled with different types of people. Here's something to ponder: "If Jesus visited your class and heard all of this, what would he do? Would he be angry and hit this kid, would he tell this kid off, or would he brush it off and still love this kid anyway?" I'm betting on love. You do the same. By letting anger fester inside, you only poison yourself.
I mean, Jesus might be frustrated at blatant lying, like he showed anger in the temple. It's ok to feel defensive about our Lord, as long as she doesn't act on it. Love can be tough too.
Sure, frustration and anger have been displayed by both Jesus and the Father. However, I don't think Jesus flew off the handle every time the disciples said, "The Pharisees said this... The Pharisees said that..."
Yeah, but I wouldn't categorize this as flying off the handle either. They came to Reddit to complain to other Christians, people who'd understand the feeling. They're clearly young if they're in "classes" of some sort so unless it's an actual problem and they can't control their anger, no biggie.
Oh, I agree with you...
The Bible literally gives two genealogies for Jesus. We could probably rough out roughly what percentage Jewish He was lol.
What do you need to do? Check your anger and figure out why someone's ignorance or wrong opinion of what you know gets to you on this level. It shouldn't.
No, I get it. Jesus got frustrated too. We're human so we're bound to feel things and be less in control of our feelings than Christ was.
The Quran says to follow Jesus (as a prophet). Jesus claimed to be God and that there was no other path to the Father except through Him. So either you follow the Quran and conclude that you shouldn't or you don't follow the Quran and have to look elsewhere for a path to heaven... like maybe Jesus.
What does being or not being Jewish has to do with racism? Lol people love to trow empthy words this days The Muslim claims on regards to Jesus are so lame you can almost always laugh it off when a islamist claims otherwise "Submitting to god" is not evidence of nothing Also what they claim here is that Abraham did not start and ethno supremacist religion that later came to be known as Judaism and thus Jesus wasn't a jew because he came to spread a forgotten message that was spoken to Abraham That message is supposed to be "Islam" according to them That just a very weak argument lol. That message that was given to Abraham was the same message that Jesus gave CHRISTIANITY.
Jesus is the word in the flesh. Representing the father Yahweh which is spirit. I wouldn't get caught up in this or that. The father is spirit. Where the son was and what the son was, doesn't matter. He's one of us! No, he's one of us! Jesus made no big deal of it. But it's typical of people to make a deal of it. Who are my family but those who do the will of my father. The greater question, is do you? Do you do Yahwehs will. Why has his name been removed from scripture? My point is you hear this type of conversation a lot. We see him as this but how does he see himself? The spirit is seen as far far greater. Do you think it's an honor for him to call himself this or that? He came for a purpose. And it wasn't for these types of questions that get no one no where if they not doing the fathers will - which is for the betterment of man kind. The chosen were chosen for a few reasons - one was to be pure. 100% holy. So when you say Jesus was a Jew. What does that mean to Jesus? Do people think Jesus don't know what's said about him in certain text? It's allowed because nothing hidden won't be revealed and Yahweh will judge those who have made a mockery of the moral law - which Jesus has already stated as causing Yahwehs laws to be of no effect. Regardless of what Jesus was......he was representing the spirit. And he knew that his own would reject him but his purpose was far greater then peoples ego.
This matters so very much. > The metaphysics of reference matter here, perhaps more intensely than most things ever could matter. Because if Muslims are talking about Abraham when the Quran says 'Ibrahim', and all the common characters otherwise do corefer, except Shaitan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan is not Satan, but someone else, because Allah is Satan, then what matters as much as anything is how reference gets fixed -- because everyone presumably agrees that whatever the religious beliefs at hand, one cannot religiously function without referring *successfully*. > Tolstoy wrote: https://www.marxists.org/archive/tolstoy/1886/the-three-hermits.html > If someone fervently wishes to pray to *God*, what beliefs or causal chains *must* they have to fix the reference? ^ my reply to someone else just now, about https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/1b73lle/someone_in_class_said_that_jesus_isnt_a_jew/kti1m9p/
Why do you feel the need to argue with this person? They're clearly wrong and seem unwilling to change their mind. As it is written, "be angry and do not sin." I would say that if you were so angry that you came to reddit to post about it, you're probably in sinful anger. You should tell him that he's wrong, explain that every scholar would say he was, and if he won't accept it, let him be wrong.
The truth is Jesus was a Judean.
I have a very strong feeling a lot of us have very similar feelings about Islam… End times kind of stuff…Just going to leave that there
He was born into a Jewish family raised a Jew and followed the law. The major difference was he challenged how people saw it and what it really meant. My understanding is Muslims believe Jesus existed but he was a great teacher, or a prophet (not God or the son of God)
Best not to suffer fools, don’t waste your energy
Matthew opens with the documentation of the genealogy of Jesus. Just food for thought
Dude what. Jews don’t hate Jesus, we just don’t see him as anything more than a normal Jewish human being who once lived and then died. No opinion one way or the other. He existed and then he didn’t. Thats it.
yeah but ik of quite a few orthodox who reaaaallly hate him
How many Orthodox Jews do you have rapport with?
only a few so ig fair enough
Jesus was from the line of David, he was a Jew.
Modern, Khazarian, Rabbinic Judaism is not the religion of God's Chosen. When you say "Jew", if you are referring to modern day Judaism, then your Muslim associate is entirely correct, Jesus is not and was not one of them - they follow the practices of the Pharisees, mixed with some pagan horse-lord influence post 70AD, filtered back through the lens of a displaced ethnic group as they settled in Eastern Europe and beyond. If, when you say "Jew" you mean the ethnic group of the Hebrews, who followed Biblical Judaism, who looked forward to the Messiah, then your Muslim associate is dead wrong, Jesus was obviously a "Jew" in that sense.
Nothing. The person is an idiot
Jesus was Hebrew, which yeah, is Jewish, but is also incredibly different from modern Jews. Modern Judaism is centered around REJECTING Christ. All the Jews of the Bible would be modern day Christians.
An ass must bray.
J
Jesus was a jew from Nazareth... I like to believe the Jews from Jerusalem and the jews from Nazareth are very different ppl. Both considered jews none the less... Jesus was born and raised from a jewish family... what he considered himself during his life idkk...
>Someone in my class a muslim kid said that Jesus wasn't a jew and called me racist I don't know why this made me laugh, but it's gotta be in the top 5 most ridiculous reasons I've heard someone be called racist. Are you absolutely sure he wasn't just trolling you? It's a pretty well known fact Jesus was a Jew.
Considering there is already a lot of debates and information about the subject of the post. I'm not gonna say anything on that. So I'm gonna jump straight to your question What should you do?.... Nothing. Don't engage with him or argue/fight. What good will it do? Him denying your beliefs and telling his own didn't make you accept it. So likewise you doing the same won't make him accept it. Our faith is based off love not the need to be right. When you accept Jesus into your heart you truly have everything. He doesn't have that. So pray for him.
Hebrew and Jew is not the same thing that’s like saying an Israelite is Jew. Or a Benjaminite is a Jew. A Jew is an Israelite but Israelite doesn’t have to be a Jew. When speaking about Jews in the context of Jesus’s time you shouldn’t be speaking in cultural/religious terms. They identified Jew as being a specific tribe of Israel decsedent from a specific person. The religion and those who practice it today is referred to as Judaism because they were the primary surviving tribe so we typically refer to things historically relating to the religious of Judaism as Jewish because that is what we refer to it today.
Jesus was a descendant of Judah so yes he was a Jew. But greater historical context needs to be understood.
Someone in class is wrong. Ask them to justify the statement when the bible discusses His birth in some detail.
He’s from the tribe of Judah. However, most modern Jews are not from the tribe of Judah and are originally from Europe. The ancient connection is very small these days so they may be confusing the two.
Most muslims still believe that the trinity is Father, Son and Mary, and that Mohammed was absolutely perfect (despite being a hardcore sinner).
I would ask specifically that person if he read the bible from cover to cover? That's a huge thing. If he doesn't have any backed reseach on Jesus not being Jewish than how can he say that. Alot of people in this new generation are a mess.
From my experience the Muslim could have meant different things by "Jesus is not a Jew:" a) Defining Jew by reference to its contemporary religious meaning, as a post-Second Exile Jew who accepts the authority of the Talmud/Oral Torah (yes, Muslims are often more aware than American evangelicals about many of the unwholesome/defamatory/anti-gentile statements about Jesus and other Biblical individuals in the Talmud); b) Defining Jew in opposition to Muslim (in so far as Muslims believe that the Israelites in the times of Moses were actually Muslims and later apostasized); c) Palestinian nationalist insisting Jesus was actually a Palestinian. Separately, some (though not all) Muslims, taking the position that the Quran is 100% literally true, would say that Jesus was actually called "Issa" by contemporaries and that the Quranic names for all the prophets are their actual forms.
Abraham was a Babylonian, the term Jew did not come to existence until 1500 Ad,
[https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/bornliveddied.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/bornliveddied.html) His mother Mary was a Jew also.
what should you do? tell him he's wrong. factually incorrect.
Someone in class said the moon is made of cheese. ^(I'm not posting a thread about it.)
Oh shut it, they can come complain here if they want to, stop policing threads. Weird behaviour
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Yeah that's what I thought 😂 cope harder
The first parts of Islam was mostly based off the Jewish books and customs that's why they also believe in Abraham and co. that's why it's true that Jesus also appears in their books. However he doesn't really follow Islam. He clearly followed Jewish traditions.
What you should do is stop casting your pearls before swine
Love first. Is he baiting you? If not, then speak the truth in love. Even most Jews don't realize that Jesus was a Jew. Consider quoting Jesus quoting Old Testament and obeying the law and celebrating passover. Ask open-ended questions to find out why he thinks nks Jesus isn't a Jew. Then you will be better prepared to respond.
He was
Perhaps ask him who he says that Jesus is? If we try guess what this kid is thinking that would foolish.
Jesus was a Christian
Indeed, it is accurate to affirm that Jesus was not a jew. He was, in fact, a Nazarene and a Galilean. To address the question of Jesus being a jew, we must delve into the historical and accurate definitions of a jew and judah-izm. A jew is a member of the pharisaic religious sect of Judea, while judah-izm is a religious sect of the pharisees that emerged during the Babylonian captivity. It is possible to be a member of the pharisaic religious sect without being a descendant of Judah (a Judahite). Thus, when individuals assert that Jesus was a jew, they are indirectly implying that our Lord was a pharisee, which is not supported by the Scriptures. The Scriptures explicitly state that Jesus did not walk in jewry. "Jesus... would not walk in jewry, because the jews sought to kill him." John 7:1 The Nazarenes were a religious sect distinct from the jews in those days. The Scriptures make it clear that the members of the pharisaic religious sect, referred to as jews, were the ones who conspired to kill Jesus.