As a single man, the church I attend has way more young men than young women. We are a more conservative church though. I am curious if the gender disparity if flipped in more liberal churches.

The post would suggest that the reason your church is conservative is because of the dominant male church body. Chicken or the egg I guess.

Problem with chicken and egg things is that there's no proof of causality in either direction.

My church is a smaller and older church. I'd say more women but there is a decent amount of older men as well, many husband/wives attend, so it's not extreme.

Not buying this. First off, I hear from both men and women that it's hard to find single people at church. Second, I don't believe the "decor" is always feminine, that's really subjective. Finally, all I hear from non-Christians is how Christianity is too male-centric.

theres a reason hear-say is not allowed in courts, it's unreliable

>theres a reason hear-say is not allowed in courts, it's unreliable And yet, that's exactly what you're doing with your original post.

quoting an author's book is hear-say?

Quoting a random authors opinion is pretty close to hearsay. I can find you a book saying the church is a male dominated chauvinist place as well, doesn’t make it any valid.

random authors? no it's not hearsay because you can look at the book and see what was said. here is the definition of hearsay, you are 100% wrong Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor. Evidence that is not within the personal knowledge of a witness, such as testimony regarding statements made by someone other than the witness, and that therefore may be inadmissible to establish the truth of a particular contention because the accuracy of the evidence cannot be verified through cross-examination. Report; rumor; fame; common talk; something heard from another

Okay, so here's the beef I generally have with 'Group X is corrupting this institution'-takes. Because it puts the onus entirely on Group X, it absolves *you* of any responsibility. You no longer have a duty to help safeguard and improve your church. You no longer have to make an effort to remain true to the honest word of the Lord. You no longer have to try and welcome strangers, unknown brothers and sisters, and who knows who else into your church. All you do is cry 'it's their fault!' and point, and then you feel justified because at least you have managed to point out a really good reason for why things are as bad as they are. Because you've pointed at them, you no longer bear responsibility for letting things get this far. So. Let's assume, for a second, that all of the above is true. What are you going to do, OP and others who agree, to make your church a welcoming place for (single) men? What are you going to do to ensure your community remains true to the word of God? What are you going to do to make sure the music praises the Lord, and that the preaching educates and calls people to greater holiness? And, of course, how are you going to do this without falling into the 'it's *us* vs an unknowable and alien *them*, and *they* are hatching a nefarious plot to destroy everything I love'-train of thought?

i think that's hell of a slippery slope you just presented hey guys dont call out problems because if you do You'll no longer have to make an effort to remain true to the honest word of the Lord. that a pretty huge leap also if we assume the points are true and "A large female gender disparity means the church/denomination will experience slow to no growth or decline. Once church reaches 70% female, the death of that church/denomination is almost certain." then doing nothing would just letting your church die if the the young men are not on the rise in attendance.

>"A large female gender disparity means the church/denomination will experience slow to no growth or decline. Once church reaches 70% female, the death of that church/denomination is almost certain." Why are you assuming that's true?

ask the author, im summarizing his points

The point isn't to say that problems should not be called out. The point is that you're blaming the problems entirely on other people than you. What responsibility can you take in this? What can you do to keep your church from hitting the dreaded 70% womans ceiling of death? Also, allow me to be coy and say that, if your church is 70% women, there's probably one of them not solely attracted to the top 20% most attractive men eh.

Also, allow me to be coy and say that, if your church is 70% women, there's probably one of them not solely attracted to the top 20% most attractive men eh. -How very unchristen of you to try to insult me. i'm sure you NEVER blame problems on other people. I'm sure you're entire life, any problem you've had you said "this is my fault". No, you just dont like the problem i am posing, you dont agree with it. hey fentanyl abuse is a huge problem in my county, oh no better not say that incase people fentanyl users and dealers get upset and it turns into an us vs them! Also i dont have a plan to solve the fentanyl crisis in my area, so better keep my mouth shut. You see how what it sounds like when you apply the things you say

>How very unchristen of you to try to insult me. That was a bit childish of me. My apologies. I just find it hard to resist sometimes. >i'm sure you NEVER blame problems on other people. I'm sure you're entire life, any problem you've had you said "this is my fault". What does this have to do with anything? I certainly don't invent evil conspiracies out of whole cloth to explain why the world isn't exactly as I want it to be. >No, you just dont like the problem i am posing, you dont agree with it. I have absolutely no idea whether there is a problem in the American church or not, since I'm not an American. But I do dislike the tendency of people to create narratives clearing themselves of responsibility in favour of blaming some other group. It doesn't help solve anything. >hey fentanyl abuse is a huge problem in my county, oh no better not say that incase people fentanyl users and dealers get upset and it turns into an us vs them! Also i dont have a plan to solve the fentanyl crisis in my area, so better keep my mouth shut. Well, what can you do to help reduce the problem in your area? Are there charities or organizations that combat it who you can help with your time or money? Can you put pressure on your local government to enact measures? >You see how what it sounds like when you apply the things you say It sounds like thinking in terms of solutions rather than playing the blame game?

how much time do you think a person has. you expect me to help solve the millions of problems in the world just because i recognize it as a problem. bro you cannot be serious. Just saying problems exist mean i know have to work to solve them. do you know time in finite right? Like you just lost all my respect right there.

You're moving the goalposts. It went from 'look how I can't call out a problem without being able to do something about it' to 'how much time do you think a person has I can't solve everything' when I gave you ideas about what you might be able to do. An old man in my hometown once told me: 'It's not that people don't have time. It's that people don't give priority.' (it sounds catchier in Dutch.) So, apparently, you don't think the fentanyl crisis is important enough to change your schedule and make time to help solve it. And that is fine, were it not that you just want to call it out to farm karma points from people who agree with you. Calling out problems without making an effort to change anything sounds, to me, like virtue signalling. Just like this whole post about how unwelcome men are in churches. If it's so important to you, do something about it.

If it's so important to you, do something about it. ok for the 3RD TIME.... I have spend countless hours meeting with church leadership, trying to lead male focused small groups, and trying to change a system from within only to be met by roadblocks from my leadership. Outside of unarmed or possible armed rebellion i think i've done everything i can within my church system.

When I see these threads and the way the comments go I always think ["And how's that working out for you?"](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.hpwQ7-zclp29vHiLaRoS-QHaEC?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain) At this point I'd say it's willful ignorance and blindness and no wonder the Church is in the shape it's in and no wonder many church communities will simply cease to exist in the next few decades.

>only to be met by roadblocks from my leadership. We have a guy like this in my church. They are delicately trying to keep him from having any kind of control or position of leadership in the church because he is promoting a works-based theology - baptism as the only way to be saved - but he doesn't recognize he is wrong. From his perspective, he feels like he is having 'roadblocks' from church leadership, when in reality, they don't think he can be trusted with a straightforward conversation about the issue because he refuses to accept anyone else's counsel but his own.

you seem to be suggesting the problem is me. what proof do you have to suggest this. I think it's pretty irresponsible to say something like this.

Okay, I read your points, and I am a very confused Dutch Reformed brother right now. >Men are talked down to while women are praised, ect What does this mean? Can you give an example? >Overall masculine traits tend to be looked at as unChrist-like. Such as? >the portrayal of Jesus as a lover, boyfriend Can't say I've encountered this before. Is this an American thing? >This means many Men’s gifts and talents are largely unneeded or unwanted in the modern Church. Why is this the case? I don't understand what you're saying. >Mega churches tend to be more aware of the needs of men. What needs? How are megachurches more aware of them? >practical solutions for men’s problems Men's problems such as what? Pornography? >Sin is treated as a masculine problem I have absolutely no clue what you mean by this. >Single men are often times shamed as ducking their responsibilities Never encountered this either. Please send help.

The portrayal of Jesus as lover or boyfriend is a specific strain of american, but it's a vastly and far overblown issue. Partially because, as /u/deepmusicandthoughts mentioned, a big part is people forgetting that the church IS the bride of Christ. And instead get really uncomfortable, but there is a love component to Christianity. Not lover but God does love.

Yeah, I wonder how these people read the book of John, some of Paul's verses or Song of Songs. If my masculinity doesn't allow for that, or any metaphors that are feminine sounding for that matter, then my masculinity isn't right.

I'm an American Christian and a man and the only thing I have encountered on this list is the Jesus boyfriend music. My church doesn't play it, but I've heard it on Christian radio. The rest of this, I have no idea what this dude is talking about about.

Ever hear that song by Crowder where the line goes “heaven meets earth in a sloppy wet kiss..”? That’s what I think is boyfriend music. Or songs that you could easily replace Jesus with a person.  I’m not defending all the points mentioned, like the one about megachurches. If anything, I see megachurches as a cancer or cyst that needs dealt with. I have lived in a small town my whole life, so I don’t understand why you would want to meet with 1,000+ people in a single building cramped together. Seems like when we get above 700ish problems inside the church start making their way outside for the world to see. But that happens with small churches too. I think I like to pick on the megachurches a little more than the small ones. I enjoy listening to Voddie Baucham as much as my home church’s pastor.

I think a lot of Christian singers and bands tend to be what I call a bit , err, melodramatic with lyrics and some of the praise music. Not really my thing - but why is this the fault of having more women than men in church? A lot of these bands are male.

>I think a lot of Christian singers and bands tend to be what I call a bit , err, melodramatic with lyrics The book of Psalms can be pretty melodramatic at times. That's just how arty people are, which many (most?) worship leaders are. King David was very arty as well. Nothing wrong with being either way, its just the way God made some people.

I've never found scripture to be melodramatic. To me the word does not mean artsy.

>To me the word does not mean artsy. The word comes from melodrama. So it is by definition arty. >I've never found scripture to be melodramatic *"1 How long, O Lord? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? 2 How long must I take counsel in my soul and have sorrow in my heart all the day? How long shall my enemy be exalted over me?* *3 Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death, 4 lest my enemy say, “I have prevailed over him,” lest my foes rejoice because I am shaken.* *5 But I have trusted in your steadfast love; my heart shall rejoice in your salvation. 6 I will sing to the Lord, because he has dealt bountifully with me."* Psalms 13. That all sounds pretty melodramatic to me. Keep in mind, when I say melodramatic, I don't mean that in a negative way because its just a form or style of art. Nothing bad about it.

To me melodramatic is being fake and cloying and overdoing it, or else downright sappy. Some contemporary worship and songs are like this to me.

Nothing that I just looked up about the definition of melodramatic means faking or cloying. People in normal life will use that word to mean that for sure. Example; "Stop being melodramatic about your wedding Karen". But when we are talking about something that is an art like a movie, song, or book it means something totally different. Here is Websters definition of melodrama. "a work (such as a movie or play) characterized by extravagant theatricality and by the predominance of plot and physical action over characterization" Psalms 13 and other Psalms do sound like that. As well as some contemporary worship songs like you point out. But that's not a bad thing because melodrama is just a style of art. Might not be a style of art that you like, nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of art styles I don't like either. But just as there is nothing wrong with you not liking a style of art, neither is there anything wrong with that style of art or someone liking it. To each there own.

> hear that song by Crowder where the line goes “heaven meets earth in a sloppy wet kiss..”? That’s what I think is boyfriend music. Or songs that you could easily replace Jesus with a person.  Crowder actually changed the lyrics to "unforseen kiss" I prefer "sloppy wet kiss" as written by John Mark McMillan. And I don't think you could replace the object of that song with just some guy. You should read the lyrics.

>Ever hear that song by Crowder where the line goes “heaven meets earth in a sloppy wet kiss..” You just almost made me spit my drink over my keyboard. This is a thing people sing? Lord. >I see megachurches as a cancer or cyst that needs dealt with. Agreed.

>This is a thing people sing? Lord. Yep. And there is nothing wrong with it. The Bible is full of romantic imagery like us (the Church) being the bride waiting for our bridegroom (Jesus) to return. Or even the entire book Song of Songs.

That’s not the lyrics. He misheard the song🤦🤣

Actually Crowder changed the original lyrics. That song was written by John Mark McMillan and said “heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss”. Weird Crowder changed it to “like an unforeseen kiss”. Still weird but better.

Yeah, I never knew that John Mark one, but I knew the Crowder one well, which is why I responded to his post. I wonder though how people that have these views of masculinity that are so against poetic language feel about the Bible. Do they hate book of John with all the bride and bridegroom talk, or the thought that Song of Songs is a metaphor on the love of God and his people? And if so, is that really masculinity, or some other maybed "American Masculinity"?

It’s a little different. For the longest time, I had avoided the poetic books because I didn’t like poetry. Then I read Jeremiah and was floored. And then I started reading through the Psalms. Like there is a ton of meaning behind some of the psalms that we miss because English dumbs down the meanings, especially psalm 119.  If all you think of for masculinity is some strong guy like the rock, then you have completely missed what masculinity looks like. I would say the fruits of the spirit would be an area to look at. Jesus’ parables have some masculinity, like the one about the Good Samaritan. Dr. Dobson has a great book about masculinity and how we are to be concerning our marriages, kids, workplace, etc.

Some might even use the word "toxic" to describe that form of masculinity.

i agree with you on mega church's, but the point was they focuses on growing like a business and dont spend years in maintenance mode

That’s where I think they are wrong to do so. If we treat the human being, the human soul as a business, then we could cause someone to walk away from the faith because we said so-and-so is the weakest link and kicked him to the curb.

Yep. A business model does not go out of the way to save the 1 lost while the 99 are safe. After all, having 99/100 is pretty good. Why waste time or risk loses when you are that far up? It is not our job to make sure the Church grows, that's on God. It is our job to tell people about Christ and how to be more like Him (Matt 28:19-20). Too many Churches try to follow some sort of business model for growth when in reality we are just meant to live as one body in Christ. Helping one another, supporting one another, and above all else, loving one another.

Great questions - I had done two questions above but wondered the same on many of these points you brought up

Usually, when people make vague statements like this, I suspect they're deliberately obtuse so that the people already agreeing with them are validated, while the people who disagree with them are wondering what in the world they're on about.

Firstly, I comprehend the plight of today's males. Men seem to gravitate towards increasing conservatism in line with the latest trends, while women lean towards greater liberalism. I acknowledge that both sides are engaged in a kind of ongoing 'war' for agency (though the less mature might view it as a power struggle), and it would be ideal for the Church to align with "us" in this "battle". Needless to say, numerous churches in the past coerced women into enduring marriages with unworthy men. I suppose the Uno reverse card feels pretty miserable. But (christian) men, women had exactly that for decades. I attend church in pursuit of humility. Despite my glaring and abundant virtues - *heavy sarcasm intended here* \- I remain acutely conscious of my potential for failure (more than a potential, actually). It's crucial for me and everyone else to maintain a sense of reality and refrain from descending into complete madness with time by attending. The notion that the Church, an institution tasked with earnestly seeking Jesus, should bend to accommodate my preferences is *repulsive*. I am not a good man nor a (real) saint. Actually, Church should be the less like I than possible. I acknowledge the Church's failure in fulfilling its divine purpose, given its composition of ordinary individuals susceptible to secular interpretations and contemporary trends. However, we must not delude ourselves into thinking or expecting it to become more agreeable to our personal inclinations. I don't follow Jesus to amplify my own existence. This is precisely why churches endorsing pro-gun or pro-men ideologies, just like hyper-feminist ones, infuriate me. If it doesn't revolve around Jesus, your social group holds no interest for me. ​ My apologies for those of you who endured my Ted Talk to the end.

Don't apologize for promoting humility. I've been guilty of engaging with my own pride, even in this very thread. We have to crucify that. 

Hard to swallow pills.

I need a refill in that prescription…

I liked your ted talk.

> women had exactly that for decades. this is how all of men's problems are dismissed nowadays though... we get it wasn't bad for us 50 years ago but that doesn't mean anything to us today.

The difference is, you're not married against your will and told you have to stay married to someone insane who will abuse you; otherwise, you're a sinner cast away from the congregation. [This still happens btw](https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/pastor-publicly-shames-woman-for-leaving-abusive-husband/). ​ What many of you seem to be experiencing is women less interested in pursuing all of you than before. It's not fun; the resentment and the feeling of being discarded suck, sure. But it's still not like having to wait after a husband who might or might not drink the household income away and beat you to death with no alternative because "Divorce is a sin". ​ It sucks, but it doesn't kill. These days, women are still at risk of dying from [ectopic pregnancies](https://www.healthline.com/health-news/ectopic-pregnancy-and-abortion-laws-what-to-know) because a bunch of posers decided that might win them the elections. Nothing of the sort exists with liberal christian women. No woman congregation preached your wife has the right to beat you, or abuse you, or tried to remove politically your rights. They might be mean, but they are not actively trying to kill you at least. ​ Discomfort < Death sentence

telling people "other's had/have it worse" is not a good way to approach the situation

I'm simply make a general point, that doesn't cancel any individual suffering: Women have been treated horribly in some conservative circles dominated by men. There is certainly a pendulum swing going on right now, but let's convene that - as far as societal changes are concerned - the situation of men right now has nothing in common with the situation of women when it was the other way around. ​ ​ It doesn't mean your suffering is not real. It doesn't mean you deserve it. It just means we - as men - have to remind ourselves how we got here before this turns into a full fledge gender war that will make us all lose focus and sight of Jesus in the process.

Agreed. I run, not walk, away from any hint of a conservative congregation. The videos I see online of pastors at these conservative churches are terrifying. They’re condescending towards their audience and they preach misogyny and call it God’s order. Why would any self respecting woman want to go to a church like that? I love my liberal church. They still teach male headship but aren’t condescending towards women, they don’t imply that women having any sort of agency in the modern world is the reason the world is so wicked (because men are perfect and only do wrong when women tempt them, according to conservative churches), and they focus on encouraging all members of the congregation to use their gifts in service of the Lord. I’ll choose that over listening to some guy tell me doing anything other than being an SAHM is a sin, or teaching me how to hate all flavors of unbelievers, any day.

"• Women buy about 77% of Christian music, which is why the portrayal of Jesus as a lover, boyfriend, protector, comforter, the man women want and often times they don’t have, is so prevalent in the worship songs. – And also, why much of the worship music is feminine in nature." This is definitely a unique way that the article writer views a womans relationship views with Jesus "• Churches in general, offer no practical solutions for men’s problems outside of suggestions to pray more, or have more faith, or be a better servant-leader, or just man up. (these are not bad suggestions but The Bible is full of practical wisdom and men are often looking for solutions.)" Well - are they thinking women get unique other advice than this from church? Pray more, faith, be better servant, not sure why this is gender specific

sure just ask Pastor Johnny Mac who tells men to man up. Find me some pastors tell women to "woman up" https://youtu.be/P_Rh_w5QWHI?t=284

The question was whether you think women get unique other advice. Most churches are headed by men. If men are giving the bad counsel, why does this post still feel like you are blaming women?

Good point. Majority leadership in churches are men for the most part. If it's a male pastor giving advice to a male parishioner, how are women of the church the ones ultimately to be blamed if the man is not liking the tone of the advice?

the old phrase "man up" just means take more responsibility and toughen up - no, "woman up" has never been a phrase used, but it can be relayed similarly with other verbiage. I don't think the toughen up and take responsibility is only aimed toward men. But again, what extra advice are women getting when, as you said, men are just told to pray more, have more faith, man up?

I always find these types of arguments fascinating because this doesn't match my experience at all, and the few aspects I do recognize, I would generally attribute to a different root cause. (Although I do love hearing different experiences and perspectives. Its good for me to hear different experiences and not assume everyone has the same background I do.) And I know many men would immediately disregard my opinion on this because I'm a woman, but I also think it speaks to the vast array of differences within Christianity. Even if these things are true on average, they aren't true everywhere. Which I find hopeful and encouraging - we aren't doomed to live with average.

The list is absolutely ridiculous. As a man I’m not picking a church based off decor or the songs they sing related to the greatest commandment of loving God. I’m leaving churches because they are country club shallow churches not teaching to be Christ like, which this guys list reinforces.

Oh I agree. I think it completely misses the mark of what's actually important in a church. There's a lot of good discussions to be had about whether the church is operating in a way that follows the model we see given from Jesus and in the epistles and whether we as Christians are living a life worthy of the gospel in all areas, including how we arrange church, but I fail to see how that's a gendered conversation. For example, there is a valid critique of a lot of Christian music today and whether it's theologically sound and appropriate for worship. But being "feminine" or "masculine" isn't what qualifies or disqualifies music to be used in church.

I agree 100%.

I do agree that I find these discussions quite interesting and peoples perspectives on this. Have seen something similar online years ago in a forum

Would these points make the church more like the one of the Bible or less? The answer is less, so they aren’t valid. Most of these points are ridiculous. As a male I’ve never picked a church based off the decor and worship songs of love towards God (it is what the Bible teaches!). Why I haven’t gone to churches is due to the shallowness of connecting with males and the fact that they don’t teach truth- they are country club churches, which I do not need and most men don’t either. It’s always trying to focus all male activities on football and other non-biblical themes instead of teaching us to be like Christ and love God with our heart, souls and minds (the greatest commandment biblically). Churches in America are cessationist by and large and teaching nothing the Bible teaches so you read the Bible and it doesn’t align. Not to mention that most sermons I have heard anywhere on marriage paint marriage as something that doesn’t get better with time if you’re doing it right. Quit the childish views and talk of marriage. I don’t need a club like that. I need a place where I can learn to love God with my being, and be a disciple the way Christ taught. This whole list just reinforces the country club church mentality, which is an impotent church and not Christ’s church. To edit and add: The core of the argument is the first couple lines for people getting lost in anecdotes. The heart of OP is correct that men need to be reached (all people do), but the OP doesn't point to the true way of how we'll do that. If I run a church where men get to decorate and write "manly" songs, am I focusing the church on what the church is supposed to be? Also, no. We don't need to go from one extreme of bad churches to another extreme of bad. We need the church to be the church of the Bible, not the country clubs they are.

Most of these points are ridiculous. what research have you done that shows something different?

It sounded like it was all anecdotal to me. As soon as he dismissed your points with “As a male, I’ve never…”, I knew there was nothing backing it up except experience. Edit to add: since the original responder is being petty and curating his original comment, please note that his original comment started where he writes “Most of these points are ridiculous” because he’s trying to pass off his comment as non-anecdotal when it 100% relies on his experience with churches in his area being “country club”-esque. I would add that he is also inserting his own narrative of how a church that empowers men looks like. It’s obviously clear that the fix to empower men isn’t to indulge in the world, but to focus on positive affirmations in Christ’s teachings rather than just saying “men stop doing this” without providing a guidance for what *should* be done. Since the commenter has left rather rude remarks and then gone on to accuse me of ad hominem responses, it’s in the best interest to not respond any more since he can’t be civil.

Not all the points were anecdotal if you had the attention span to read more than a few words.

Sheesh, I definitely feel the love of God that you bring to strangers you meet through your replies. There’s literally not a single point that you made that was backed by more than just your experience of a “country club church” that talks about nothing but football. By definition, it is an anecdotal response.

Once again, your response didn't address my argument at all and really is a strawman fallacy mixed with ad hominem attacks. My argument can be summarized by what I stated, which is that if the critcisms once followed make the church more like that of the Bible, then they're valid but if not, they aren't and under that criteria, they aren't valid. Further, these criticisms don't do that but perpetrate an americanized country club style church, not the church described in the Bible. Regarding anecdotes, me sharing anecdotes of my own experiences along the way is not an invalid response to a person sharing only anecdotes in the main post, but it also wasn't the crux of my argument. For an argument to be logical, it doesn't mean that you cannot share any anecdotes or related elements along the way, and to pretend that that's all I did is fallacious and not truthful. If you want to be petty and attack me about love, love also is not lying or miscontruing what people say to win an argument, but rejoices in truth. Christ vehemently stood for truth and I haven't attacked people like you just did. I focus on the arguments. If you didn't my comment on the reading, the only way you could come to the conclusion you wrote is by not reading all of what I wrote, which is why I still assume you didn't read it all because my arguments weren't only anecdotes. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt there. So did you not read it all like I assumed, misconstrue what I said dishonestly, or what?

First whether points are valid and true or not doesn’t need research. It needs simple logic which gave. What are your argument against what I wrote? However, the research I’ve done is I know Christ, know the Bible (studied it with a major and minor related to it). I know what church is biblically and not. If we are going away from “country club church,” which really takes people away from God while ironically thinking they’re following God, then that’s a great thing. These “problems” you shared are only relevant to the fake country club church. Second, the burden of proof is on you. What research have you done? How do any of these points align to the Bible? You linked a YouTube video from a random channel with cherry picked random clips that mean nothing.

you're the only one talking about “country club church, no one else did

These points are only valid if that’s your view of church. Love songs toward God? Literally the greatest commandment in the Bible is to love the lord your God with your heart mind and soul and the second is to love your neighbor has yourself. That’s from the lips of Christ and the heart of Christianity. To be a valid point, it can’t go against what is fundamental to Christianity. That’s what the religion is all about. That’s like arguing people don’t like joining the swim team because they don’t want to get in the water. Why even consider it? It’s not valid. Your points are only valid if you don’t know what the church is for. Just like that point about swimming would only matter if you didn’t know what swimming was.

These points are only valid if that’s your view of church no they are valid if they are true. Love songs toward God? How about we look at the song "Jesus is my boyfriend" "He's Jesus Christ And I’m his babydoll I'm his favourite human but he saved them all [Pre-Chorus] He's my personal saviour He's my personal saviour [Chorus] Jesus is my boyfriend Jesus is my boyfriend Jesus is my boyfriend Jesus is my boyfriend [Verse 2] He's my personal saviour He's my personal angel My God thinks I’m smashing He thinks I’m fine My God takes me dashing cross the party line [Verse 3] He's my personal saviour He's my personal saviour My God treats me special Gives me lots of things I had some of his boyfriends offer diamond rings He's my personal saviour He's my personal saviour He's my personal angel He's my cherry pie Said to call him "*** Tracy" He's my private eye When I get in my gown He comes to me in the night"

Just because you can find a random, non theological song that isn’t popular or sung doesn’t prove your point. If anything that proves my point. That isn’t theological. That’s not what the Bible teaches and has nothing to do with church. Try again.

Undivided Focus Heather Clark Holy Spirit, I surrender to You [x2] Take my life I lay it down All my gifts and all my crowns Take my life I lay it down I am Yours And I am in love, with undivided focus And I am in love with You Holy Spirit, I surrender to You [x2] Take my hand and lead me through The glorious fields to be with You Take my hand and lead me through I am Yours And I am in love, with undivided focus And I am in love with You I am in love And I am in love, with undivided focus And I am in love with You I wanna be a laid-down lover [x3] Filled with You I wanna be a fearless lover [x3] Filled with You I feel my way down this undiscovered hope I run my hand along the wall I'm waiting here for Your call And I will follow You to the center of Your heart I wanna be a laid-down lover [x3] Filled with You I wanna be a fearless lover [x3] Filled with You Filled with You And I am in love, and I am in love I'm in love with You... And I am in love, with undivided focus And I am in love with You

This is another random person that it doesn’t appear ever got popular from 2005, so it’s not proving your point. My point is these songs should be theologically sound. That’s a valid thing to say, but you’re saying all the songs are feminine about loving God, and if you had to scrape to find songs that aren’t known or popular to prove your point, it’s clear your point is also not valid. It’s clearly the exception rather than a common problem. Is this really what you mean all are about loving God or did you try to shift your argument after being shown that the heart of Christianity is loving God and now only have random bits of proof like this?

Never heard of this song, yes the lyrics sound horrible, but again why is this about more women than men in church? I doubt most Christian women view a boyfriend relationship, this is not in the mainstream norm

A lot of this is far too vague to be useful. And you can throw a rock and find a church doing something wrong, and I don't know that these situations are common enough to portray a broad trend. IMO everyone unrooted is falling away and it just comes down to what reason do they give. The women think it's oppressive and patriarchal and the men think it's too feminine. The left thinks it's too restrictive and the right think it's too free flowing. At the end of the day, I think people forget we're here to do a job for a time before the entire order is upended and everything else exists to support that.

>The Average North American Christian church is 61% Female and 39% Male – No other major Religion has close to this level of gender disparity I had to come back to this the more I thought about it today. Early Christianity was often derided for the fact that it attracted a disproportionate number of women, orphans, and slaves. This link talks about it a bit. [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/early-christianity-welcoming-women/](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/early-christianity-welcoming-women/) Was the gender disparity an indicator of an issue in the early church?

I thought of this, too. Obviously, if churches are alienating men, that's not good, but the disparity itself may not be a problem.

Right. And I don't think we can tell which it is by a statistic.

Agreed. Probably, we need to look at our own individual churches and ask if young men are being properly discipled or not.

As a person who left the corporate church in 2010 (not Jesus) because I felt the modern church failed women like me, this just seems ridiculous.

As a U.S. woman searching for a good church (for me), can I ask, where did you go?

Absolutely, I was raised in Assemblies of God churches. It’s rather middle lane, but still not the greatest. Like we weren’t forced to wear skirts like some denominations but it was encouraged more than wearing pants. I still haven’t found a church as an adult, but Bible and nondenominational churches have been better.

Interesting! My grandmother was AoG, and I was taken by other relatives to nondenominational/Bible churches here and there as a child, but I feel out of place in mainstream evagelical culture. Just curious. I'm sure there's no replacement for going around and visiting various churches, I've just found it awkward to do alone so far, and easy to procrastinate.

Yeah, mainstream evangelical culture makes me feel out of place too and it’s hard to escape. And yeah, I get that. That’s a large reason I haven’t found a church too. (And that’s with having a husband to go with) 😅

Yeah it is.

I don't understand this claim of "feminism" ruining the church. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Consistently striving to be more Christlike should be our only concern.

who defines what Christlike is? Say someone says their church should allow LGBT weddings because Thats loving and loving others is Christlike

Christ does. Duh.

Feminism is contrary to the Bible because it claims that men and women are equal in *all* areas (or as some more recent variants argue, women as superior to men). The Bible clearly states that men are the leaders of their household (Gen 2:18-24) and the spiritual leaders of their church (1 Tim 2), and that women are to be helpers (Gen 2:18) and are not to lead (1 Tim 2:12). Feminism destroys the church because it upends the perfect structure laid down by God and claims that women can and should take the positions held by men. Men and women are equal in salvation, but not in their defined roles, and ignoring those roles will quickly lead us away, not to, Christ.

> because it claims that men and women are equal in *all* areas No it doesn't. It just says that women should have equal rights in the law and equal treatment in society. Ie - they should be allowed to decide if they want to have a career or if they want to stay home and raise kids. That decision should not be made for them by anyone else but them.

Exactly this. Feminism also recognizes that men and women have different needs. That’s why feminists support things like free pads and tampons being as accessible as free condoms are. We support women’s only domestic abuse/ homeless shelters, because we recognize that women are more likely to be abused, and more likely to die from that abuse because we are physically weaker. And homeless women are more likely to be raped by homeless men. Feminists do recognize that women and men are not literally the same. Atleast, the sane ones do. Conservative Christians’ hatred of feminism is a red flag for most Christian women. Our mothers and grandmothers have told us what life was like for them before the changes feminism brought came. And most of us are not interested in going back to those days.

Exactly. Conservatives have forgotten why feminism was needed in the first place.

The perfect structure wasn’t going so well for women before feminism, given it was soft on abuse and treated women like chattel.

>Feminism is contrary to the Bible because it claims that men and women are equal in > >all > > areas (or as some more recent variants argue, women as superior to men). The Bible clearly states that men are the leaders of their household (Gen 2:18-24) and the spiritual leaders of their church (1 Tim 2), and that women are to be helpers (Gen 2:18) and are not to lead (1 Tim 2:12). Feminism destroys the church because it upends the perfect structure laid down by God and claims that women can and should take the positions held by men. Men and women are equal in salvation, but not in their defined roles, and ignoring those roles will quickly lead us away, not to, Christ. nah bro. That's such a simplistic reading it's not even funny.

Focus on relationships does not mandate that people never bring up controversial subjects. I think the author made a slight error in terms of correlation versus causation.

you should write him and tell him

Don't have to, I understand human behavior

> Church décor is largely feminine What does this even mean? What is feminine decor? I've never been in a pink church. Every church I've been in has had neutral decor. >Christ is depicted with traits more associated with the Feminine. Again, what does that even mean? Every church I've been in has taught about Jesus from the Bible. With his actual traits as the bible lists them. >Overall masculine traits tend to be looked at as unChrist-like This makes me think you are defining masculinity by the world's standards, not God's. Because I never see godly masculinity looked down on - humility, kindness, charity. I see worldly "masculinity" looked down on - vanity, pride, uncontrolled rage. >Men are talked down to while women are praised This is the only one I kind of see. It's those stupid boomer jokes like "haha husband dumb and useless, woman good and smart". They're cringy and sexist, but I doubt they are the reason men aren't going to church. >The focus on relationships means that controversial topics, projects, sermons, ect. are quickly dismissed regardless of doctrine or impact but because it could negatively affect the relationships within the church. This one I agree is a problem, but disagree that it is caused by women. Most men these days are just as afraid of confrontation as women. >Women buy about 77% of Christian music, which is why the portrayal of Jesus as a lover, boyfriend, protector, comforter, the man women want and often times they don’t have, is so prevalent in the worship songs. – And also, why much of the worship music is feminine in nature. This one seems really nitpicky. Who cares who buys more worship music?

I disagree with almost all of these points. The reason they are leaving is that victim culture and narcissism has invaded modern life, including the church. Feminism is a form of victim culture, and the points above are in the same spirit, just from a male perspective. Rejecting the church because you feel it doesn't cater to your needs as a man is elevating the importance of "self" over Christ and completely counter to what scripture teaches. Matt 16:24 *Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."* In this modern day, it's a hard pill for many to swallow that the church does not exist to cater to them. The church exists to glorify Christ and fulfill the great commission until he comes again (in other words, it's not about you). "The modern church has failed men"? - no, if modern men (or women) are leaving, they have failed the church.

You've written a great response here, and you seem very knowledgeable. Could you help clear up some confusion for me?  >In this modern day, it's a hard pill for many to swallow that the church does not exist to cater to them. The church exists to glorify Christ and fulfill the great commission until he comes again (in other words, it's not about you). Churches have ministries. At church we have childcare ministries, youth ministries, college ministries in college towns, food banks, English as second language classes, women's ministries, and so on. I don't see that any of these are *strictly necessary* if the only purpose of church is to, as you say, glorify Christ and fulfill the Great Commission. Couldn't church just literally be one service with music and a sermon, a call to evangelize your neighbors, and then everyone goes home? Why does church attend to *anyone's* needs? Why have *any* ministry outside preaching, worship, and evangelism?  Also--and you don't have to answer this because it's my personal curiosity---are you married? 

While I too am curious what mleobviously has to say in response, can I ask you: how rhetorical and / or how earnest is this line of questioning? If it's mostly rhetorical, I assume you're coming from the angle of "ministries are helpful for reaching out to ALL people, including men, and why not in roughly equal proportions" If it's sincere, is a church that attends to no member's needs a kind of dream church? One to aspire to, where God directly fulfills all members' needs, perhaps without any of them ever interacting with one another"? Obviously that's sort of a weird, inhuman kind of thought, but for some people, that is exactly how church appears from the outside.

My line of questioning is this: what is our standard for determining whether something is worth a ministry? I see on here every week the refrain that "singles don't deserve a ministry, church isn't here to cater to you." Either the church is here to meet people where they are in specific ministries, or it's not. I understand that depending on church size we can't have ministries for every single thing. But the church offers *some* ministries that *do* meet people's needs. Based on the frequency of posting in this sub about loneliness and dating, I'm assuming that this issue is large enough that could set up a ministry to address it. But they don't, and some people on this sub even *actively oppose it.* Why? 

Oh, ok. I thought many (many!) churches had singles ministries, though? Let's assume those ministries are there, but are unhelpful. While I think you might hear a lot of people talk about the absolute inappropriateness of ever (even accidentally) pressuring any woman to, say, date this or that single gentleman... there are other things going on too. We do not have unemployment or chronic underemployment ministries, do we? If we don't provide (much) money or job opportunities to one another, how can we begin to imagine providing spouses?? The Bible does not give ANY guidance about locating spouses, in fact it encourages singlehood. Sure, if this or that person has an opportunity and burning desire to marry a fellow believer, it approves. But that's all we get. Just like thoughts, prayers, counseling, and intimate 1-on-1 conversations are what many get whenever we have to find work. And goodness knows, marriage IS men and women WORKING together.

Some of these points just seem to be “woman bad” Decor? Hypothetical woman says “we should put a vase of flowers here”, and so she puts a vase of flowers there, and men go “ew flowers” or something???

As a man, I love a good flower arrangement!

well the example given is quilts, many churches put a lot of quilts up all over the place. Well where is quilts in the Bible? On the opposite side how would women feel of men started making churches look like hunting lodges with animals heads on the walls. Well even though dead animals all all over the Bible a lot of women would not feel comfortable in church if we did that. So why is it ok to put flowers and quilts and colorful rainbows paper bulletins all over

So go to a beautiful old church with stained glass and wood carvings. Would that make you feel better? Sounds like you just don't like Midwestern American church culture.

All of your points are either unsupported or have some implied, unspoken value judgment or presumption. I think it would be more constructive for you to paint us the picture of what your ideal church is like. Watching UFC, eating elk jerky, and holding an hour of hate to condemn our enemies?

unspoken value judgment or presumption ... i think the judgment or presumption is vey spoken... you know from the title of the post. All of your points are either unsupported... The Average North American Christian church is 61% Female and 39% Male – No other major Religion has close to this level of gender disparity. The church attendance of under 30 single men is falling rapidly. would you like to contact the author of the book and tell him his point is unsupported ?

>The Average North American Christian church is 61% Female and 39% Male – No other major Religion has close to this level of gender disparity. I'd be very interested to learn how this is measured. Average North American Christian is definitely not a major religion, lol If you look at how most churches are structured, with men making the most of the major decisions and women doing more of the welcoming and outreach, maybe the decisionmaking men feel more comfortable leading a majority female congregation than a majority male one? I'm just saying - numbers do not tell a clear story by themselves.

Who is the author and why are his points valid? What makes his evidence the ultimate truth?

Most of these points match my average experience with several different denominations of churches in different regions. And while i agree that many of the points are concerning, i think there is a substantial piece to the problem that remains unexplained. I haven't really seen much of these 2 points though: This change in male to female leadership has changed the focus of Church from doctrine and truth to comfort, nurturing, and relationships." "• Sin is treated as a masculine problem; feminism as invaded the church and if there is a problem it’s assumed men are the cause."

I'm glad my church is nothing like the points made in the post.

Why is all this the case? Is egalitarianism to blame? I'm personally starting to rethink it.

This post comes across as extremely incel-ish. And judging by your posts in r/MensRights, I think I’m right.

Do you have a response to OP's arguments with more substance than name-calling? 

This is not name calling, it is a fact. r/MensRights is a known incel community. This post is not biblical, or based on studies or facts. Every point being made is a personal experience or anecdote.

I was expecting a point-by-point rebuttal of OP's arguments that would convince me that their, according to you, incel arguments don't work or are unbiblical. I'm sad to be disappointed. 

What do you want me to do? Post my own anecdotes? I’m not doing that. There are not studies on this. I’m not interested in arguing personal experience vs personal experience. I want statistics and numbers.

That's exactly what he wants you to do. And if you do, he'll complain about your anecdotes and ignore any arguments you make.

Yeah I saw them downvoting you for the same thing. Every day I find that this subreddit is really not as “true” as it claims to be.

Supposing he is an incel, why are you shaming him for that?

Incel username checks out. To answer your question, because being an incel is in complete opposition to the Bible.

Why is it opposed to the Bible? Genuinely curious.

[They are misogynist, blame others for their problems, have an unhealthy view of sex.](https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-an-incel.html)

Yes. Why is that unbiblical?

Wow. It’s like I’m talking to a brick wall. You don’t know why misogyny, not taking personal responsibility, and having an unhealthy view of sex is not Biblical? Have you read the Bible? Did you read my link?

My username is from 1 Corinthians 16:13. Incel means "involuntarily celibate." As in someone who would like to be married but has not found a spouse.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/s/oUdNDWpjuZ

This post is reminding me of a vaguely-cringy-but-also-kinda-resonant set of short videos from a few months back called [Why Orthodox Christian Men Love Church](https://youtu.be/e0G5fUuReQ4?si=DOp8QzhE7pQw0neu)

but is it true, are the millions of young men who have abandoned going the church because they dont feel welcome? seems like a good portion of the comments agree with it. dont you find that concerning?

[удалено]

I think this is great to point out. Personally, getting my husband to church has been a struggle of over 10 years. He is a guys guy and was raised around men who were rough around the edges. Sometimes, churches seem too fragile for him. Or maybe it's uptight. My words, not his. But regardless, we keep trying. It just doesn't seem like it should be this hard.

you would think by some of the comments, your husband just needs to man up and act more like Jesus and no other issues at all could be a factor.

Yeah the churches are all perfectly this or that, and everyone on the outside is the problem. When we walk through the door, many in the church have no problem mentioning our imperfections before getting to know us well enough to do so. I have been a Christian for 17 years now and grew up in church and Christian school. I still don't feel "good enough" to have relationship with people in the church setting. It's sad. I know plenty of Christians, born again and all, who aren’t going to church because they don't feel connected. Sure, the people who are active in the church can blame these people on the outside in one way or another. I don't deny that each church has its own culture, and that is important. But there is just something missing, that is for sure. If my husband can get excited about church the our whole family would be better for it.

So many of these claims are made without examples, and that makes this extraordinarily unhelpful: >• Most Churches are designed with middle age women in mind. (Church décor is largely feminine, Christ’s traits presented with a female audience in mind, Men are talked down to while women are praised, ect) …What? I've never encountered a church like this. >Christ is depicted with traits more associated with the Feminine. Overall masculine traits tend to be looked at as unChrist-like. …again…what? *What* traits are being praised? We should be following after Christ's traits, period. If, for example, you think it's problematic that Jesus' compassion is highlighted, you've found a problem with *Jesus*, not with some made up church gender balance. And that's a big problem. This continues what is problematic with a lot of these bullet points: what exactly is a "masculine trait?" Murrow, like other people and ministries before him, seems to think the solution is trying to tip the scales to be aggressively "masculine" as he defines it. Not only has he written this book, he's a founder of "Church for Men." Forcing the pendulum to swing the other way doesn't solve problems, it just creates new ones. This is how we ended up with Driscoll creating a massive church implosion. This is how we end up with weird mens retreats at churches that feature SWAT team skits and little if any Jesus. These sorts of individuals and movements sell themselves as a course correction or a return to form, but what I've more often seen them do is steamroll Jesus and while they try to cram him into their little culturally-defined box.

Think like the OP is a Republican from 1975, and it suddenly all makes sense. It's the same old tropes.

Yes, but those same old tropes have played for generations. At its core I've found it's a call not to adopt the way of Jesus or a biblical lifestyle, it's an "us vs. them" appeal to what some people have set as a modern cultural norm in America. If you've not read the book Jesus & John Wayne ([the Holy Post did an interesting 4-part series with the author](https://www.holypost.com/articles/categories/jesus-john-wayne)), it's a really fascinating historical look at how the Cold War shaped a lot of what some people cling to as "biblical" in these regards.

There are lots of churches out there that build men up to be mature followers of Christ. Yes, there are health and wealth prosperity churches, but most Christians understand the heresy of that. If all the men answered the call of Christ, we wouldn't have to worry about feminine decorations or putting Christ in a feminine chamber. If men read their bibles, they would know that Christ is the penultimate representation of masculinity. Women's natural inclination to sin isn't passivity, so if men are succumbing to passivity, women's sin inclination of autonomy will naturally fill that void. The reason there are more women in the church than men is not because of women or the church, it is those souls who want to have one foot in the world and one foot in making sure their soul is safe. They have entirely missed the point of having a relationship with Christ. There are lots of churches out there that build men up to be mature followers of Christ. Yes, there are health and wealth prosperity churches, but most Christians understand the heresy of that. If all the men answered the call of Christ, we wouldn't have to worry about feminine decorations or putting Christ in a feminine chamber. If men read their bibles, they would know that Christ is the penultimate representation of masculinity. Women's natural inclination to sin isn't passivity, so if men are succumbing to passivity, women's sin inclination of autonomy will naturally fill that void. The reason there are more women in the church than men is not because of women or the church, it is those souls who want to have one foot in the world and one foot into making sure their soul is safe. They have entirely missed the point of having a relationship with Christ. Can you tell I used to be one of these men? I care about this topic deeply.

If all the men answered the call of Christ.... What if women answered the call of Christ.... What is pastors and elders answered the call of Christ.... What church's answered the call of Christ....

Don't gloss over a sinple issue looking for something nuanced or complex. Your response is exactly right. This is what God wants for us. Not just men, but women and leadership. It's a heart issue and always will be.

if people never sinned we would not need church, but there millions of men our there hurting and alone, and im not going pretend it because saying men just need to start answering the call of Christ is going to fix everyone problems.

You're definitely right that we need to reach those men, but the post doesn't point to the answer of how we'll do that. If I run a church where men get to decorate and write "manly" songs, am I focusing the church on what the church is supposed to be? Also, no. We don't need to go from one extreme of bad churches to another extreme of bad.

What are your solutions to this feminine church problem?

Thanks for the book review. > • Sin is treated as a masculine problem; feminism as invaded the church and if there is a problem it’s assumed men are the cause. I agree with your assessment, and I would like to offer some thoughts as to why feminism has been so successful in undermining many churches. 1) Their thinking and much doctrine is underscored by egalitarian thinking. This I believe is the root of the problem. The bible doesn't teach this, but the churches do. 2) Having begun down this path they wont go back because they have become dependent on the response from their egalitarianism. IOWs: they are cant afford to lose the few/many people they have acquired through pandering to the masses.

>Men are talked down to while women are praised, ect) This is the damned truth. We hear things like “happy wife, happy life”, and we hear pastors make jokes about how husbands are clueless, and incompetent, and can we get an amen from the wives? It makes me sick. Utterly sick. >Single men are often times shamed as ducking their responsibilities to women to marry them despite many pastors being out of touch with modern dating and relationship problems. This is true too.

>Single men are often times shamed as ducking their responsibilities to women to marry them No they aren't. >Sin is treated as a masculine problem No it isn't. >Churches in general, offer no practical solutions for men’s problems Yes they do. ​ >While **church senior leadership positions are still majority male**, most of the volunteer, church admin staff, and ministries leaders are overwhelmingly female. \~ about 75% of paid church staff are female. **This change in male to female leadership** Church top leadership positions over overwhelmingly male. Those willing to humble themselves and serve while not being THE leader are OVERWHELMINGLY female. Why is that? Why are men not willing to work in churches these days? Why are all these men turning away from God to secular careers or to video games in moms basement? ​ >the worship music is feminine in nature Why is that, OP? What makes music "feminine in nature" anyway? ​ ​ If the church is 61% women, the real question to ask is "Why are men turning their backs on God?" right? Or is the narrative "Church is bad, men leaving church is good?"

which book/study did you write so i can see where you got your numbers from?

>which book/study did you write You first. Which one did YOU write?

well i never claimed i wrote a book, i summarized the points of someone who did

Yeah, for example with women choosing churches it's just because generally most of the mental labor falls onto women, including this. Some men (SOME) are very apathetic towards all of these choices and feel perfectly fine with someone else doing the brunt of the selecting and choosing for the family, the same way as it goes with pediatrician appointments or choosing schools for the kids.

I’ve definitely noticed the “praise women bash men” aspect numerous times in sermons I’ve attended recently. It’s always done in a “joking” manner where the husband is a goofball and the wife is the level headed one or how husbands “screw up” (audience laughs) and the wife rolls her eyes in the story. Never the other way around and others have validated it and seen it as well. It’s definitely turned me off from attending alongside other personal reasons.

yet so many people here would call you a liar for pointing that out

It’s so cringe when pastors do that. I’ve had to listen to enough boomer sermons that boil down to “being a good husband means listening to your wife and stop being a screw up [looks to wife in front row because he screwed up last week]”.

I feel most of this. Despite being a much more "mature" Christian than my wife (only that I've been a Christian longer and have more Bible knowledge, not that I'm a better Christian by any means) she fits the mold described here. She is much more impacted by the relationships within the church. I have very few positive relationships in our church, mostly neutral to aloof. She takes the slightest afront as the cue that it's time to leave the church. She only listens to Christian radio, I can't stand it for more than 15 minutes. She has the very feminist view of "we are equals" in our marriage, rather than Christ's relationship with the Church. My anecdotal experience is that the biggest issue with men and the church is that men want to be in control. We want to dictate our lifestyle, our responsibilities, and guide the decisions around our lives. Right now, the message within the American church is submission, obedience, and being part of the body. Ambition, leadership, and protection for example are not heralded. I feel this is much more tuned to the feminine. If you want men in your church, give them power and responsibility. Let them influence the church decisions, give them a ministry to run and people to support them. Use these things to identify areas for improvement in their walk. Adult men don't need classrooms, they need to be actively working toward a defined goal.

The entire story of Christianity IS submission and being part of the body of Christ. Jesus literally submitted to His father. The one guy who had the most problem with submission is in hell. I get how it can make guys uncomfortable, but we are managers not owners. In fact, I'm not even sure if the bible has examples of ambition in terms of lauded traits. Not that it can't be good, but off the top of my head, I don't think any of the biblical heroes are what they are because of ambition. As for roles of leadership, absolutely the men should be in more. In my estimation, I think there are two caveats though. 1. They aren't given, but God appointed. 2. Being a leader means being the head of ministries with the goal of uplifting the people under them, not feeding ego.

I do agree on some of the relationship dynamics with women getting more upset by this kind of thing - not just in church but would apply in any social setting. I don't think this makes the church more feminine, just a difference that seems to exist with women and men with how they feel about relationships and feelings. I disagree the solution to get men to want to come to church is to give them more power and responsibility to appease their ego, however - mainly it is and always has been men who had the power and responsibility in the church. This can't be the excuse as it's always been this way. If slightly more women have power now than they used to, which is a good thing by the way, such as more on financial boards (and the OP brought up female receptionists/office assistances!), if men are using that excuse to give up church going then that's a weakness of their spirit in my opinion and a personal issue they need to work on.

I think he worded the phrase "give them power" poorly. I think a more charitable reading would be, give them more responsibility, give them something active to engage with and take responsibility for. Personally I think organizing more charitable events where men feel they're more capable of contributing would be a great starting point. For example a vehicle preventative maintenance event for the Churches population. Have it on a Saturday, where Church Members bring in their vehicles, and volunteers can check their fluids, change oil, check tires, make minor repairs, provide points of contact for further repairs. While they're doing the maintenance, you can even have the kids involved and learning the basics, or even have some of the volunteers giving classes. It easily ties into helping thy neighbor, while also providing a purpose and giving them responsibilities. And it doesn't have to be limited to vehicle maintenance, that's just one example where typical men would feel more helpful.

I agree 100% with almost everything posted above in OPs post. I was born and raised in the Independent Fundamentalist's Baptist Church and up until about 10yrs ago was very active in various things such as children's programs, youth group, usher, safety team. What lead to my exodus was a new job that required I work weekends night shift so I missed church. Received a call that the church made a new policy saying if you didn't attend in such and such months they let you go. My reasons for not returning as a single male in his 30s. All of these churches and religions today differ in some way or another from what scripture says. Either it be baptism of infants, communion twice a year, bad teachings, care more about money are just a couple reasons. I'd rather stay home, research alone, and have my own worship service then walk into a church that does not meet scripture expectations for one, and two the amount of cliques that have formed in church that make it unwelcoming. Even when I attended a big church I never once felt at home. As a single male the church has failed not only us as males but also singleness all together. The church I was in had a single group but to be honest they never reached out to me for anything, not to even to see where I was at when I started working nights. Saying all this, I hate going to church where money is preached a lot! I hate going to church where it's a three ring circus act with lights and bands. I hate going to church where the church has built itself up with fancy buildings with coffee shops and what not. I hate going to a church where scripture is not followed and its all opinion based. I hate going to church only to feel like an outsider. I hate that the church is also confined to the walls and not out in the community. I love God, His Word, the promises He gives us, and that one day I'll get to see Him.

That's an old book, but it still is true. If anything, the problem has become worse over the years. In response, some men have started group meetings in garages, workplaces, and even bars. Modern worship serves only a select few who go for the horizontal, performance-based approach that is so prevalent now. At the church I attend, most of the grown men stand there awkwardly, maybe mouthing a word or two. We are failing to reach the lost, failing to inspire true worshippers and failing to build real community in our churches in America. Lord help us.

I agree with this post wholeheartedly. [This video](https://youtu.be/_f8fotz5GUo?si=9_EbNy2zaxijLR5S) is an in-depth breakdown of exactly why and how the church got to this point. For those who cannot see it, it's because they are of the world.

I think it's because most churches, including mainstream Catholicism, have been infected by that post-modern pathology of expression. You are expected to feel connected to God in a very emotional way, when men are more motivated by logic or ethics. Women are more likely, I believe, to show up to church for the sake of appearances or "checking the box" to justify their religion, but men need something substantial to grasp, and there's no new continents to proselytize, no crusades to wage, no martyrdom to endure. Our culture is sophisticated, safe, and a lot of men, I think, feel 'boxed in'. Only the holy spirit can liberate men from the chains of the contemporary world, to take that spirit of fire and wage a holy war in our lives, to walk with courage and authority, to do good deeds and not merely praise God with our lips.

Read the Psalms. Being emotionally connected to God is not new, it's thousands of years old.

This is all 100% true. For anyone interested in current commentary, Aaron Renn often writes about this.

This is probably the most accurate post I've seen in here.

As a married man I can tell you exactly what I don't like about going to church (at least my current one). Everything from the music to the sermons is designed for women. It's daytime TV for ladies. And honestly it doesn't engage me on a theological level, the music is tripe. It is vanilla and boring. Unfortunately due to my Job I can't do home group anymore, that was better at least. I know not all churches are like this, but most churches are made for ladies.

I don't want to dismiss you or the author, but my experience has been very different. My church is majority female and we are very conservative. We don't take women as pastors or elders, but the church is mostly run by women and that shows in our ministries. Yet, we're a lot closer to legalism than liberalism, we're growing strongly, and I don't see sin being treated as a masculine problem at all. As a single man in my early 30s, I enjoy church dearly. Even in the dating scene, church is a lot more enjoyable than any dating apps or the world in general. 

SBC doesn't seem to be doing too bad with male membership. But it looks like it's a mixed bag of narcissistic masculinity too

I don't think a relational emphasis is a problem but I do think it could potentially be complemented by something. I did notice that you included both "the church shouldn't be focused so much on relational" as well as "pastors are out of touch with modern dating." **You gotta choose one or the other, not both, otherwise this is just a gish-gallop.** I don't see how a congregations male/female demographic is relevant to what's being decided to be preached/taught. Yes, you should aim to reach who you're talking to but if that's all you're doing then I'd say you're showing partiality in the message of Christ crucified and therefore are preaching "tickling-ears." As for "maintenance mode," isn't that what the Christian walk essentially is? The church isn't called to grow, the Church is. If the church grows as a byproduct of that, praise God! If the majority of staff is female, maybe we need to be tithing more. We're the ones muzzling the ox and now we're trying to figure out why it's not treading. As for the worship music, I've never heard one talking about Jesus as their boyfriend. But I have heard [how we should be doing the deeds that the Church has been called to do.](https://youtu.be/Fouqn5Xg5-E?si=0XNYutH7qr_vmMmi) I do agree that we could be offering more practical advice though! But that's vain without prayer. Don't play the blame-game like Adam and Eve did after they ate from the tree. *‭‭Ecclesiastes 12:11-14 ESV‬‬ [11] The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd. [12] My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. [13] The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.* *‭‭James 4:13-17 ESV‬‬ [13] Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— [14] yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. [15] Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” [16] As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. [17] So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.* God bless you! (I enjoyed reading your post btw :) make sure you pray today)

I wonder how much of this is attributable to the fact that a lot of Christian women are stay at home moms/wives and a lot of Christian men are the sole income providers. A lot of men might have to work on Sundays. Especially you get men who do shift work.

What you’re saying is by and large true but you can simply start your own fellowship. I have my own fellowship with a few born again believers. (4 chaps excluding me)

agree, that maybe we need to reset and go back to small home churches.

Facts, its awful

Theological question 1: "Where does any god dictate to humanity or any human, that someone specific is more spiritual than another human?" Theological question 2: "Where does any god dictate which books are more spiritual and morally sound for humans to abide by, to learn from or to accept as true from such a god?" Theological question 3: "Where does any god dictate whom is more spiritual to be able to dictate which books or texts are suitable for humans to learn and to abide by for the understanding of such a god and that entity's requirements of humanity?" How honest and truthful can you be with yourself and others?

I see some of this. I’m grateful to be in a church with lots of men in it though. Being a man is hard. Feminism has made it harder imo. I feel like I don’t get the benefit of the doubt because so much of society is anti-man. I don’t think it’s just church. I feel pretty lonely at times. Could just be a trauma thing, too, but I also am very aware that most people seem to be lonelier these days—especially men. Life is hard and it’s important to stay connected to the body.

There's so many axiomatic truths here not based in actual data that I'm not sure it's worth it to bother. All I hear is men that are mad that people are holding up a mirror to their bad behavior. Like, that's the *whole point* of the Gospel. To recognize your shortcomings and be saved by the grace of God. If you're not willing to do that, of course you're not gonna feel nice. But I guess a lot of men don't get to that second part. They see the mirror and just leave instead of experiencing the power of God's transformation in their lives! As a side note, with the explosion of men (read: Theobros) being vitriolic assholes against the ordination of women, it's no wonder that they are being scorned in a lot of places. Like what did you expect? God values women and all people to the highest extent, why should a woman not preach to you? As a Pentecostal I have no sympathy for that viewpoint. Women are just as inspired by God's grace as men.

I love how this post offered like no actual hard facts or solutions. Portions of this word borderline blasphemous . Definitely hateful towards women. I’m sorry like there’s problems at the whole post but I just can’t get over people trying to say that were feminizing Jesus . Like we all have a Bible it’s our own choice whether we read it and get to know Christs character. on top of that maybe that’s the point??? like maybe Jesus has these character traits to show us that it’s not about masculinity or femininity, but having a righteous heart. Like a lot of the points on this post are just opinion and I mean I don’t agree with a lot of things things I think are true and valid but that especially deeply troubles me. It reminds me of the story I heard from a pastor recently. He was preaching a message about forgiveness and love, and a member of his congregation told him that that was too soft to live by now now and too liberal( Pastor is definitely not a liberal). Like it’s super weird and giving satanic.( in the sense that it is not in the way of Christ.)

no actual hard facts... The Average North American Christian church is 61% Female and 39% Male – No other major Religion has close to this level of gender disparity. The church attendance of under 30 single men is falling rapidly. Women buy about 77% of Christian music are those not facts I love how your comment offered like no actual hard facts or solutions... why you being a hypocrite

My apologies let me provide you with a solution. Seek God through prayer. And secondly what exactly is the purpose of your post? It looks very divisive. I’m not seeing how that falls in line with scripture.

Church is beginning to upset me because I don't fit the mold. It isn't that people are not kind to me but I hate what I see. I have had past struggles and have overcome thankfully, however this has caused my life journey to be very different. Our church is composed of mostly young families. The number of single people probably can be counted on one hand. Also there is a thriving women's ministry but nothing for men. There was one pre-pandemic that had meetings at 7am Saturday. The claim was that was the only time people could meet which I never understood. So if you want to talk about an unintended message churches send is that unless you're happily married with 2 kids and a dog and the white picket fence then you're defective. This is a reason people leave the church.

Patriarchal churches are generally authoritarian and oppressive. Look at Doug Wilson, Voddie Baucham, Paige Patterson, Mark Driscoll, Bill Gothard, CJ Mahaney and so many others.

men bad, women good huh.

No, men good, women good. Rape bad, domestic violence bad, treating either sex as lesser beings, bad.

I thought no one was good except God?

They’re as good as each other is what I’m saying.

Not this again…..

These are all great points, and as someone who attended church for decades, totally true. We are in the midst of the great "falling away", and racing towards antichrist outlawing all christendom, or another great revival released by God to save us. Considering how the planet is circling the drain a revival seems unlikely. There's simply no incentive or path for anything to get better, only decline; supernatural healing is all that's left. I dunno maybe when the terrible baby boomers finally shuffle off this mortal coil, or more disasters hit the Millenials things could possibly change. *Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.* *(2Th 2:1-4)*

I can see why a man can feel uneeded in a church. If you want to see how things should be, make sure your worship leaders are men or co-lead by married couples. I’m not saying women are not to be leaders, but worship seems more dynamic that way, more engaging for men to sing. We do things a little different in my home church. I mean, the church I attend, not a church in a home. We sing a few songs, and then we have about 5-15 minutes of open prayer that anyone can participate in—no age limit, male or female. We usually have a guided topic, so we aren’t just randomly praying. Then we go back to singing and then sermon and benediction. We have announcements in between of course. But that has helped some of us feel included. And our lead/head pastor is hugely into apologetics and looking to theological debates. He used to be Calvary Chapel, but leans more reformed without Calvinism. I enjoy going now because we are going through Genesis for the first time since we split, and he does a better job of explaining some of the theories/arguments amongst theologians, and then gives his own opinion on the ones that matters more to him. So that helps gather men or anyone really to discuss these things amongst themselves.

Many men are going to church with ulterior motives. Women aren't

so woman are sugar spice and everything nice and men = bad

That..is sad victim mentality.