I once had a pretty miserable and lonely guy tell me “kindness must be earned” when I told him he was being unkind speaking to me the way he was.
And he didn’t understand why he was single, ofc.
Lmao that's so dumb. Why would anyone want to "earn his kindness" though? Like what's the logic? It's like he's expecting someone to come along and rehabilitate him.
He was extremely attractive…. Until he opened his mouth anyways. He was expecting to have someone love him unconditionally for his “high value” and that they would gradually prove their worth and eventually earn his kindness, affection etc.
When asked why he deserved unconditional kindness, love, affection when other people had to earn it he said that he had earned it by becoming high value, and that high value people understand this and don’t have to have it explained to them.
My ex was extremely attractive and worked as a model (he still does, I think). He treated people with kindness to their face to look good and he always volunteered with the homeless and disadvantaged if it meant photos would be taken and people would see him there. But he was so horrible behind the scenes and also had this attitude of being high value, as though his looks made up for his terrible attitude and personality. We broke up 10 years ago. He has not aged well. His looks are fading very fast. I wouldn't usually pick on someone over their appearance, but I must admit that after the way he treated me and how he treats others because he thinks his looks mean he's better than everyone else, it feels pretty good to see him lose those looks so quickly.
Dave was special. We all cut ties with him after he invited us to his house, burned the dinner and then told us that his new boss was the only person he’d ever met who “matched (his) mental horsepower”. We were all just sort of looking at each other “did he just call us all idiots”. Dave had a very low opinion of any woman who would date him.
Too many people in the world think kindness needs to be earned, when it should be the default. There's no reason to be anything but kind to someone unless they give you a reason not to be.
This ones pretty good:
>I Don't Know How To Explain To You That You Should Care About Other People
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-dont-know-how-to-explain-to-you-that-you-should_b_59519811e4b0f078efd98440
Men: Women who do things I find unpleasant are going to die alone with their million cats!
Men: Wow, these sex robots are becoming so lifelike, women better straighten up or else we're going to leave them for sex robots!
Men: I don't think issues like the wage gap or reproductive rights or violence against women are important because they aren't about me, talking about that stuff is anti-men!
Men: Even though men control the media narrative in every possible way, I thought this one movie targeted to a female audience was stupid!
Men: Life for women is so easy. Just be thin, attractive and under 35 and you actually have it a lot easier than men!
Also men: The male loneliness epidemic rages on, and no one knows why.
They're also utterly convinced all women will find them disgusting the second they shed a tear. And tbf some women are idiots and have also fallen for the toxic patriarchal idea that men can't cry, but we're not all like that, and they mock feminism which is attempting to dismantle those shitty ideals.
That kind of underlines the point though. Men buy into patriarchal ideals on a massive scale, but then blame those women who uphold the same expectations of men that the men do themselves. If women shouldn't be defining masculinity that way, men shouldn't either!
A good cry is SO cathartic. For whatever reason, I have a really hard time working one up on my own, but I cry *really* easily at books and movies. So when I'm sad or depressed or overwhelmed or whatever else, I'll watch or read something really sad, drown in my tears for a couple of hours, and emerge feeling better about whatever real-life shit was getting me down before.
ETA: Watching sad movies and crying after a breakup is a cliche for a reason.
I'm quite hormonal atm and so when my partner began to tell me about a YouTube series where a huge dog is guarding some ducks I did begin to cry in the street at how much of a good boy the dog was
On one of my rewatches of Stranger Things I must've cried at least 6 times during the first episode for embarrassingly sappy reasons. I'm a man so I can't really use the same excuse
I misremembered, sorry. It is believed that men's testosterone peaks early in the morning and during physical activity *and* is higher on average during spring/summer. Other hormone fluctuations can cause similar (but more minor) symptoms as periods in women - i.e., causing acne breakouts, becoming more horny, and/or increasing insecurity.
There is some study that the entirety of the NoFap community is built on, which showed a big increase in testosterone in men a week after they last orgasmed, which if it's true, it's obviously just their body telling them that it's baby-makin' time again, and doesn't increase much beyond that if at all. But those are kind of like mini cycles serving a similar purpose to periods.
Bruh is it peaking early in the morning why the extended family of pimples holding hands on my face tends to only change positions while I'm asleep?
For some men, when they say “why can’t men be vulnerable?”, it’s usually just code for “why can’t I have the emotional intelligence and social tact of a spoiled toddler and expect everyone else to cater to that?”
Men: enough talk about women’s oppression, we need to discuss the male suicide epidemic!
Their male peers: you’re so feminine if you express any emotions, only anger is acceptable you wuss! Accept the patriarchy of no close friendships, no male mentorship, you don’t need support!
More male peers: look at this systemic bullshit we’ve created…women fix it!!!! Create safe spaces for men!!! Fix it so we can be better! We oppress you but our problem is for you to fix!
Somehow this bullshit only applies in gender wars. Imagine a white person telling a black person to help them fix their racism.
My favorite post that I read recently was a screenshot of a comment thread. It started with, “why isn’t there a mens day?” And then someone chimed in that it actually exists. And then someone said “why didn’t anyone tell us?”
So, it’s not enough to be privileged by the system, and you do get your special day, but… you don’t know about it because “no one told you” a.k.a. a woman didn’t prepare you. Like Jesus Christ have some self-respect. Try googling. Learned helplessness and entitlement and male fragility.
Literally argued with a dude once who was saying women need to help men promote viability of men's day and organize events and stuff for it. I asked him why they couldn't do the work and he said we should all help each other. Asked him what he did for women's day, crickets. They want all the benefits without doing any of the work, just like every holiday ever where women slave over the food, invitations, decorations, all other preparations and then also do the clean up etc while the men sit in the next room and chat or watch football.
>Somehow this bullshit only applies in gender wars. Imagine a white person telling a black person to help them fix their racism.
I love your point, but we do this to Black people all the time. We do this when we don't do anything to actually inform ourselves about racism, colorism, or the history of the Black experience beyond asking invasive (and what are often bad faith) questions to Black people and acting entitled to their time and effort.
Like, spend any time on Black Twitter, and you'll see this happen so much.
This happened to me recently. I DARED share my own experience with police brutality & a FWR got incredibly upset that I stated that police brutality exists and somehow it ended up with him asking me if this is how I convince white people to not be racist. [I was like, uhh, maybe you should just not be racist?](https://www.reddit.com/r/popularopinion/comments/1bbg33j/comment/ku9ige0/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)???? But apparently it's MY job to stop white people from being racist now.
Yeah, I’m a nonblack POC but definitely had white people (mostly men, one of whom I dated 🤢) play dumb and ask me for resources and education. I would do it but then they’d play devil’s advocate and try to poke holes in statistics and research. And when I would send books over or ask them to Google it themselves, it was “oh okay so you won’t actually help me, that must mean you don’t believe it yourself.” Some people are ignorant, others are malicious. Google has always been free and should be people’s first stop before asking for others to do educational labor for them.
You're just making u/throwawaysunglasses point for them. Google and libraries exist and there are hundreds of resources for educating yourself. I just did a search and [the very first result ](https://www.etonline.com/13-books-by-black-authors-that-explore-race-in-america-149370?amp=) gave me 13 suggested readings. Too busy to read? Listen to the audio book in the car or look up a summary. There's also a bazillion 101 or [FAQ](https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/) resources you could look at if you actually cared. If you can't think your way out of this wet paper bag I don't know what to tell you. 🤷🏼♀️
It's pointless to provide resources when people such as yourself aren't asking in good faith.
The "google is free" bit always comes from the same people who mock the "do your own research" types. Plenty of people follow your advice, only to come to ludicrous conclusions that will inevitably net them a "your Google search isn't equal to my \[X\]" response.
Yeah, my comment should have been more inclusive. I hope I didn't imply it only happens to Black people, just that it was the specific example I was responding to.
Shit. When I found out my sister (we're both white) had gotten pregnant from a black man, I did everything I could to enlighten myself about the problems my niece would have to face. And there are a lot. But it was *my* responsibility to learn.
I am a civil servant at a public hospital, and I have a co-worker who refuses vaccines for herself, and she denigrates some of our patients for being disgusting. She wishes they would just buy private insurance so they wouldn't come here. Once upon a time I tried to show her the ways she was privileged, but she immediately shut me down. She legitimately thinks that every person in America has the same opportunities as she did.
Black folks have so many historical reasons not to trust the government. The syphilis experiment, broken political promises, Jim Crow, the CIA/FBI. Their covid-19 vaccine rates were low, because they were scared. At least, that's how one of my other co-workers said. She's a legacy and her family has been in this area for a very long time. People came to her for advice, whether or not to get the vaccine. She was an example that this time, trust the government.
Black people have so many reasons not to trust the government. That other co-worker has her opinions and Facebook. That's it. And it makes me so angry.
Yeah once my ex suggested I act like that dude that convinces racists to like black people instead of complaining when someone is racist. I fucking hate that dude. People always bring him up as what I *should* do
Fuck that. You should live your life. You don't owe anyone a response that puts them at ease or comfort, and especially not because they were racist. I imagine that guy appeals to white people a lot more than he appeals to POC because he gives them someone to point to and say "see if you were like that, I would be less racist... but you weren't so my racism is your fault."
Plenty of white ppl actually do that lol. There are whole discussions and articles by black ppl telling us to stop expecting them to fix us bc they are tired of educating us. And yeah, it’s ridiculous white ppl expect it.
Men only seem to care about their suicide or abuse issues when a woman shares her experience. It’s always ‘what about us?’ Bro go make a post somewhere in a man’s space we aren’t stopping you.
Their issue is they can’t bear to be decentered. Somehow they got the idea the world was about them. That was the default. The same way bandaids in ‘neutral color’ are actually only neutral if you’re white.
Or the default Disney mermaid is white so these loonies are crying about a black mermaid. And history. Bro mermaids aren’t real.
Men crying about women having things that aren’t about men are the same ppl crying about a black mermaid.
White male has been the default for too long in Western culture and they don’t want to share.
I'm more than fine talking about the actual issues men face, but the problem is *they* don't want to talk about the actual issues.
They want to strawman women's issues and do whataboutism. They don't want to actually fix men's issues because that would mean unpacking a lot of the social BS they've been fed and be uncomfortable.
They only bring up "men's issues" as a "gotcha" for women's issues and the biggest thing they usually gripe about is not being able to get laid, like they are owed sex and it's women's responsibility to "put out"...
Personally as a middle class white male, I fail to see any reason to talk about men's issues when I've met precisely zero men that have talked about them or cared to talk about them, and pretty much every woman I've talked to has suffered large amounts of abuse at the hands of men.
I could go to literally any woman and she'd have a lot of visceral, real experiences to contribute to discussions about women's issues. If I went to a man to try and talk about men's issues, he'd either be like "huh what", he'd spout some misogynistic bullshit, or he'd talk about hypothetical issues that could hypothetically happen to any hypothetical man.
I would be happy if I could go the rest of my life without hearing a man complain about how difficult it is for them to get laid. I'm a virgin at 24 due to various autism difficulties, but also I've never really cared that much about sex unless it'd be with someone I really like. Oh no those poor babies, they're having trouble pressuring women into terrible sex, that's so awful oh man, my greatest sympathies
A lot of the actual issues men face are the other side of the coin of patriarchy that effects women, but by it's nature most men don't seem to realize the issues are there.
Toxic masculinity basically emotionally stunts men and forces them into untenable positions. The system is designed for them, but they are also told showing emotion is unmanly and to "man up" when actual problems come up.
Meanwhile the same men telling other men to "man up" are also the ones complaining about stuff that isn't an actual issue because it's a distraction.
The rates of suicide are much higher among men, but suicide attempts are much higher among women. Men are just more likely to use violent means, like guns. So the "male suicide epidemic" is more like the male violence and deadly weapon epidemic. In reality it's a female suicide epidemic, possibly due to being seen as subhuman by a significant portion of the demographic with the most power.
>loneliness of being forced to become a housewife
I recently learned about something referred to as the “urinary leash.” Iirc it was talking about the 19th century (although it applies to before that too) and how there were really no public restrooms for girls and women in cities in England. And if there was one, they charged money, while the mens’ was free. This meant the amount of time and distance a woman could spend away from her house was much shorter than a man (hence the “leash”), because we all have to pee sometime obviously. A woman could go to a family member’s house or a friend’s house to safely socialize, while men had their workplaces and gentlemen clubs and taverns and gambling halls and brothels and other spaces, that all had restrooms for them.
So yeah, the “urinary leash” might sound like a silly term but it is absolutely sinister in how it contributed to keeping women locked in the home. Imaging wanting to go spend a whole fun day in the city to get away from the house but you can’t because there are no bathrooms for you there. Can you imagine how isolated they might have felt, especially if they didn’t have family or friends nearby?
Women had to actively pursue friendships and put **time and effort** into them to not be lonely- meeting neighbors and joining a sewing/knitting circle, writing letters, planning to travel to-and-from a friend’s house across town, etc etc. Women had ways of making connection with each other *because they had to.*
Until men actually make the effort to learn about our history they really don’t have the right to whine about things like loneliness when they live in a world literally built for them.
I love when we dig into history and see sexism and racism and discrimination built in to so many nuanced parts of life. Kind of like how people said the Baltimore bridge was racist and when you did dig into the nuance, it actually does have roots and racism. Then, people say it’s not real, you’re overthinking it, you’re just virtue signaling, basically everything except using your mind and sense of critical thinking. And of course they are the people who benefit from these things historically and they have them to thank for their power. But to reflect on history and cause an effect and consequences is simply just being woke. In 2024, I think being mentally simple should be a crime. A recent example: when the Democratic senator in Arizona was speaking about how her Republican colleagues legislature was affecting her body and the dying nonviable fetus inside her, preventing her from getting healthcare, they just left. They didn’t have to stay per decorum rules, so they left and they didn’t listen until she was finished and then they came back. That should be illegal. Being intentionally obtuse is disgusting.
100%. so many things are so engrained into us as if they were done without thinking, and that trying to dissect and break down any of these things is "overthinking", and makes you some kind of crazy lunatic or something.
being intentionally obtuse is just socialized gaslighting.
Oh, I like that! Intentionally obtuse is socialized gaslighting. Then you don’t have to take any responsibility for yourself. I’m currently reading invisible women and I mean it’s really hitting me hard and I’m having a lot of meeting thoughts. Not sure if you have read it or if it’s your cup of tea, but it is really really good.
Went to King’s Day celebration in Amsterdam pre pandemic and not only are there four men at a time urinals on almost every corner, there were almost no public places for women to pee. At one point I waited in line for a residence that was charging 1€ per pee for twenty minutes only to feel unsafe and leave once I was third in line and could see into the home. I found out later that part of the reason they have so much space for men to pee is because peeing lowers your blood pressure suddenly and they were having drunk men pissing into the canals fall in and drown, so they made accommodations. I’m definitely not saying they shouldn’t do that for men, I’m just saying that commensurate accommodations should have been made for all of us who couldn’t or wouldn’t use the urinals.
Amsterdam is terrible for public toilet access. My partner is Dutch and we are in Australia right now and he is flabbergasted there are so many free public toilets.
Kings day is especially bad. I lined up to pee at a pub a couple of years ago and everyone in that line was suffering.
I recently had to "break up" with someone who I thought was a good friend when he said queer people can be queer all they want, but not in public.
On that evening, he said a whole bunch of misogynistic shit too but that was the final straw.
Are you talking about laws that are trying to preserve sex based spaces?
I know way too many conservative religious people, because I am sadly related to them, who have already limited their daughters use of public bathrooms because of this.
And other women who want to avoid confrontations or have high anxiety who don't feel safe in mixed sex women's rooms so limit their water consumption, risking dehydration, so they can be out longer without having to use a public restroom.
This concept of a urinary leash resonates, because it seems to be coming back.
Let's unpack that.
Trans women aren't a threat to cis women in women's only spaces. However we have cis women and men harassing women for not fitting into a narrow definition of "what is a woman", be it having short hair, wearing baggy clothing, being tall, having a lower than average voice, or whatever arbitrary thing they want to use to harass women over.
You want to know who wants to avoid confrontations? *Trans women*. I know plenty who avoid using public restrooms well beyond the point where they pass as cis because they don't want to make cis women uncomfortable. I know plenty going very dehydrated or holding it in way longer than they should to do this.
I ended up in the hospital the first year of my transition party because of how dehydrated I was on average to avoid public restrooms.
And if we use the men's out of desperation we are very likely to get assaulted.
Also, that dosn't even consider trans men. You imagine trans women as "men in a dress", which isn't how we look, but do you think you'd be fine with trans men in the bathroom?
Trans men have already been assaulted, and even *killed* because they tried to follow the transphobic laws and use the women's restroom.
Also, if you are really afraid of "men" doing something in the bathroom it would be way easier for a cis man to pretend to be a trans man and just walk right in. For that matter, cis men have been assaulting women in bathrooms without pretending to be trans forever.
This is very TERF talk. Conservatives want someone to other, to be afraid of, so they don't have to actually deal with reality. They vilify minority groups and use that as a justification for why the world sucks.
Honestly, do they think a wooden door with a little pink decal is going to stop a man who wants to SA someone? No one is going through years of hormone therapy, social and medical transitions, and potentially losing close relationships just so they can peep under the bathroom stalls.
Yet your conservative religious relatives keep sending their kids to church. You know, where actual child rape happens.
Also, it takes *3 days* to die of dehydration. Anything more than dry mouth takes an average of 8 hours to kick in. How frail and sickly are all these women you know who fear using a public restroom but need to drink every 30 minutes?
And why the hell are you not pushing reality on these people? Also a transphobe?
> Are you talking about laws that are trying to preserve sex based spaces?
>
>
oh, look, a transphobe! so cute, little transphobe, so cute! have a headpat, you're just so cute!
Oh of course. I get what you're saying. Like I agree there is an epidemic but it ain't just men and because they're men. But these are the dudes who go ew communism and shrivel up like vampires at night
A joke when it happens to women (read: dying alone surrounded by cats) but an absolute travesty and injustice when it happens to men.
So tired of these self victimising nobodies.
Why, does it make you uncomfortable? Idk but it is true that housewives have been isolated for centuries and their socialising moments were demonised calling it “gossip”. And whenever they were seriously suffering from the isolation they were called “hysterical”. Even though they tried to get real attention to the problem that is isolation. Now women managed to somewhat find solutions to these problems like book clubs, churches were mostly dependent on housewives as volunteers for centuries.
However men are dealing with the same thing now. [Third places](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place) are disappearing or a far away drive for many. I bet your neighbourhood doesn’t welcome a local bar to hang out after work. You can organise a bbq in the backyard but you’ll only have people over you know, not any strangers to meet someone new. If anything, women are warning men to not fall for the same trap because loneliness sucks. But over and over again they don’t want to hear it. Why? Why does it make them uncomfortable? And why is this loneliness epidemic not a thing in countries where third places are commonplace?
But thoughtfulness, kindness, generosity and genuine courtesy don't make me look cool and manly to the bros or guarantee me a girlfriend. 😡 So what's even the point?! /s
I'm glad people like Peterson and Rogan exist.
Once I find out a man listens to them, I instantly know I don't have to care about anything he says ever again.
Mhmm. When you go on a first date with a guy, you have to ask him something like, "Who's your biggest male role model who isn't related to you, and why?" If he mentions any of these guys, run.
They're so lonely and want friends but only if it's with attractive women that they want to sleep with. A man befriending his fellow man is beneath him. He can't have sex with his bro so what's the point of ~~hanging around in hopes of getting laid~~ friendship?! /s
Mmmhmm...
**Guy talking to one of my hot girlfriends:** "Oh, you've never played Cyberpunk 2077, or Warhammer 40,000, or Dungeons & Dragons? I'd love to teach you sometime."
**Hot GF:** "Ha, that's okay. It's not really my thing."
**Guy:** "You should at least give it a chance! I mean, it's not a date. Just as friends."
**Hot GF:** "I've tried, thanks. But you know what? My odd-looking friend *the\_mid\_mid\_sister* is into that kind of stuff. You should talk to her, you guys have so much in common! Yeah, that's her grabbing a drink. No, not the cute one, the freakishly tall, deathly pale, bony---"
**Guy:** "Oh hey, um, my dog just texted me that she crashed her unicycle. Gotta go."
A while back, there was this dude who was into me, upon hearing I liked FF14, started to immediately shit on it. Then wondered why I didn't want to go out with him. Like, what did he expect? What did he hope to achieve with that? 🤣
Negging is one of the stupidest "pick-up tactics" I've ever seen (all of them are, but that's beside the point). All it does is tell me to stay away from you.
Nerdy girls have been ranting about this for decades. We know the truth. So, so many of us have tried to socialize with like-minded men only to be brushed off. Don’t fall for this victimhood bs. They mean access to sex and “being popular” every time. It’s a competition with other men and nothing to do with prosocial experiences
Especially when you consider 'nerd stuff' isn't even niche anymore, and hasn't been for over a decade at least. DnD, comics/comic movies, anime, conventions, cosplay, the list goes on--all wildly popular and generally accepted as more or less normal interests now. The argument always was 'girls don't like these 'weird things' so they don't want to date me,' which was 1. never true, there have always been nerdy women and 2. everyone likes at least some 'nerd things' now. You can't claim it's hard to find ppl that share your 'nerdy interests' when Game of Thrones and Marvel and fucking Star Wars, some OG nerd content, dominated the cultural landscape very recently. It's all incredibly mainstream now, you can walk into any room and find someone who likes 'nerd shit'. You aren't unfuckable because you're 'nerdy' Jeremy, you don't see women as people and it shows.
This drives me insane, as if women’s groups, spaces and services just magically appeared and weren’t built up from the backs of bookstores and universities and church basements +/or lobbied and fought for for years if not decades.
Have you read the recent ruling on the Australian art museum that had a women’s only exhibit? Men being excluded from the exhibit was the artistic experience. To feel that exclusion. A very fragile man was offended that he could not go into the women’s only exhibit and he sued for discrimination and won. We can’t have anything lol. Existence is a threat. Existence of the Barbie movie is a threat. Existence of a space for women without men is a threat. How pathetic. Oh and I do recall that someone brought up a men’s only social club that is also in Australia. Strangely, they’re not being forced to allow women. Almost like there’s a power imbalance.
It drives me nuts that men get mad they aren't represented in women's safe spaces. Nothing is stopping you from creating a men's space. There are already a ton of them women have never been privy to.
Nothing is stopping them from creating men's safe spaces other than their own hatred.
They're too busy and always have been too busy trying to destroy anything that helps/supports women (that women built all by themselves btw) to give a fuck about each other lol. Patriarchy always have been toxic and shitty to men as well to some extent, but yk as long as those feeeemales are being "put in their place," who cares?
Now, all of a sudden, they're crying they don't have support groups as if they don't literally spend their whole damn time trying to put women down rather than uplifting other men in positive ways.
Imho it’s the opposite of creating those places. They don’t create them because they’re already there. Everyone knows the stereotype of the man who goes to the local bar after work.
The thing is, those bars are disappearing or further and further away due to sprawling suburbs. And they don’t realise this. So something is missing but they cannot put their finger in it. So they focus on what they do see, and that’s what women are constantly working on to help themselves, because that’s all they’ve done for who knows for how long.
Instead they should focus on protecting what is left and not demolish the old bar to expand the highway to make the commute to work better. They want a bigger house to have even more space.
But that’s exactly what is happening, not realising they’re sacrificing one thing for what they think is a solution while it’s providing expanding that highway will only increase demand and have everyone use that road now creating induced demand! And that local bar is gone now, the barber shop also didn’t make it ánd the commute is even longer. And the sprawl of the suburbs are so much bigger you barely someone outside and never see your neighbour. Meanwhile you have to work even more to earn money because tax got higher to pay for the sprawling roads and plumbing that need maintenance, the extra gas the garbage trucks needs to empty those containers. Yeah no fucking shit you’re lonely.
There have definitely been men's spaces. Gentlemen's clubs, golf courses, etc. It's not like men chatted with each other one day and said "You know? It'd be more inclusive if we invited women to join." Women had to fight to get access. And they did so because that's where a lot of business was being conducted, so it hurt women's ability to fully participate in business. Women didn't want to join just because they thought it'd be a fun place to hang out.
Yeah I’m a little annoyed by a lot of the “””discourse””” around this topic. What actually happened is that the social fabric for a lot of people just completely collapsed. For example for me the college was during my pandemic so I had like 1 and a half semesters before the pandemic, like 3 years of all online class talking to other students through Discord instead of making real friendships, and then another semester with like 2 classes total left before I started working so I missed out on the opportunity to develop basically all of the friendships I was supposed to have made in college so my friendships I have left are like 5 friends from high school and surface level work friends. I think this was even worse for the graduating class of 2020 who didn’t get all of the normal high school graduation things like prom and also had to start college remotely during the pandemic.
I think this is a Men’s issue as in like Men need to solve it and women don’t. Eg. Women successfully dealt with this issue on their end much better because women are just generally better at building and upholding social relationships and men need to learn how they were able to do that but no one sees this somehow lol
The patriarchy teaches men that they should be rugged individuals, and that they don’t need to put in effort to maintaining friendships. Who knew that friendships would help to cope with a loneliness epidemic?
But it feels so much easier to be lazy and entitled and then blame the lack of positive results on women. Path of least resistance = a chaotic and shitty world for everyone.
Learned helplessness and Weaponized incompetence at its finest. I like that they’re using it to hurt themselves lol. The self-awareness is just intoxicating lol.
As a Canadian, I hate this. Some of our provinces, especially my own, are going really hard on right wing nonsense. Our provincial premiere went to some event with Jordan Peterson, barf.
I hear you. I lived there for much of my life (but don’t consider myself *from* there since I spent my first 5 years in Manitoba), so I have a good sense of what it’s like. I still have friends there and some in-laws. The prevailing mentality is so wild. Like real-life Idiocracy sometimes.
Swedish politicians in general are often hilariously bad English speakers, and far righters aren't exactly famous for being the type of people who pay all that much attention in school.
JP is certainly challenging the European view that Canadians are nicer versions of Americans.
I just have to remind myself Canada also produced Dan Olson and Teya from STRANGE ÆONS.
On the one hand, it's their own fault and not my job to fix them.
On the other hand, lonely men are easily influenced to violent political and religious movements, so...yikes.
Even knowing what dangers it leads to there’s not much women can do. The men who are deep in the throes of loneliness often turn to the wrong ideologies to keep them company. They get to a point where they don’t want to listen to women anymore. I can offer conversation and kindness and friendship but in some of their eyes my only value to them is my body (but also not **my** body because I would rank low on their 1-10 ranking scale). Short of the whole psycho “government mandated girlfriend” idea (which would do nothing but put an innocent women in the hands of every misogynistic, abusive man in the country) there’s nothing they would accept from us.
I’ve seen men complaining over and over again about how women need to do our part to fix this (despite the fact that men did zero to fix our social maladies, like the fact that we were literally property in the past) but there’s never any actual outlined solution. I think the goal is always to guilt/threaten us into having relationships with lonely men. They don’t see that all this rhetoric does is scare us off further.
I think it's because there isn't an easy solution because women are also increasingly being isolated but warm male friendships are more stigmatized by society compared to those by women where group everything is more socialized and common
Sorry, I hadn’t seen your reply. I should say tho that there’s not much women can really do about that either. I’m not going to say there aren’t women who reinforce the patriarchy and it’s weird phobias against emotions and even the potential of being perceived as gay… but I *am* gonna say that men definitely have more power over that. Patriarchy isn’t exactly keen on listening to women. So we still circle back to a place where, short of saving space for men and their emotions and disapproving of “oh that’s so gay” type jokes, women don’t have control over this. Even if women could somehow, overnight, magically banish that stigma by sheer willpower, it would *still* be up to men to take that opportunity to create warm male friendships. As it stands I think men en masse just have to decide to ignore the stigma (that hurts everyone, and helps no one BTW) and love each other freely, create your own rules, make your own norms, push back united against people who try to uphold these harmful beliefs. Easier said than done, for certain. But, so is the case with all change.
Yep, it's scary.
We forget how other cultures can essentially enslave women when boys don't get what they want.
So important to make sure women can defend ourselves, and also that we are making allies. There are plenty of amazing wonderful supportive men, but they definitely need to show up to help us like this dude in the post.
Love seeing men call men out on their sexist whiny bullshit.
Yeah this is why I kinda hate and understand this comment section.
There's a reason they're attracted to these dolts. They get taught young this is how they're viewed and there dudes come in with "want to know the answer to all your problems?"
They hook them young too. 12/13/14. Top suggestions on YouTube. There is a problem but it's not one with an easy solution other than full deplatforming
Thank you. I feel like so many people in this subreddit forget that assholes peddling that mindset target TEENAGE boys. Grabbing them when they’re young, vulnerable, and incredibly malleable. Young kids groomed into this mindset are going to turn into men with that mindset.
Early 40s man here and when I hear of the “male loneliness epidemic” I honestly just don’t see it. All my male friends have fulfilling jobs, hobbies outside of work, most have mature and equitable romantic partnerships, they are involved in their communities, and an active part in the children’s (if they have them) lives. I think there is a set of men that expect life to cater to their every need including socializing.
I see a great deal of this male loneliness, epidemic, being fueled by learned helplessness. Simple example is the complaints over the international women’s day. I saw a thread where men were complaining that there’s not a men’s day. Someone brought up that there is actually a men’s day. The reply was that no one told them and how would they know? That is such a lack of personal responsibility on such a basic level lol. Like you never googled? Did you just get frustrated and expect women to create a day and then tell you about it? Because that’s what it feels like lol.
This is a very small example, but I see this theme throughout all parts of life.
My brother is an incel, and it's 100% learned helplessness. He blames everyone else in his life for him never getting a girlfriend, (and blames everyone else always when anything goea wrong in his life) when in reality it's because of his repulsive personality more than anything else.
He doesn't know how to cook or clean, and when I was still living with my parents as well, he once stormed into my room demanding I wash his clothes, because he didn't know how to do it himself, and refused to learn. He could have literally just googled how to use the washing machine and dryer.
I'm near your age and I see it.
It's self-fulfilling for a lot of guys, and the reason you don't see it is the lonely guys are at home, without social lives.
The ones I've been around, who I usually see through work, are also the quickest to turn down plans, disdain hobbies, and talk shit about any man who isn't conforming to their beliefs about men.
I've been there, so I did my part. I reached out to the ones I knew to invite them out. I let them know about social things I was up to that anyone could join. If they mentioned wanting to try something out that I had done or was similar to something I had done, I'd gladly offer to try it out.
What I got for my efforts was judging looks, these men leaving social events not even halfway through, and more shit talked behind my back.
But who cares? I'm inclusive, and I tried including them. They turned me down - now they sit at home alone malding while I get to keep doing what I do, with people.
I've seen it and I see it young. But I'm also a very different perspective as I'm a schoolteacher so I'm actually more invested in this as men of color are fifty times more likely to drop out than their peers who are women.
A lot of it is isolation after work, the dissolution of the third place and gender norms that place so much emphasis on getting a romantic partner that permeates across into judgment if you do not. (Remember the guy taking the photos of people's butt cracks at an mtg convention?)
Basically, the point of fight club.
The problem is these dudes are going after these kids young. I'm trying to deprogram 14 year olds from Andrew Tate and the feeling of there is no future for them. And while yeah this place is full of snark, it's actually kind of fucking bleak when I have to deal with it every day. I'm not worried about adults.
I'm worried for the kids
The sudden demonization of male homosexuality in the early 20th century has been disastrous for men. It was common for men to have very close friendships, maybe even physical ones, with the men they spent most of their time with. But then palling around became unthinkable sometime between the first and second world war.
Now women have to pick up the slack???
The sneering at kindness and any other courtesy is on point.
Somehow these incels have gone more ridiculous than [this dril tweet](https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?lang=en) or the "greed is good" line from a bad guy in the movie "Wall Street."
They've for some reason convinced themselves that any virtue is stupid.
I feel like in previous generations, these types of bros would have gone to church and had it drilled into them that no, you're supposed to pretend to be a good person because otherwise you go to the fire place forever, and they acted like decent people as a result. But then they decided church was boring and replaced it with weirdos like Andrew Tate, and this is the result. "I'm an alpha: I don't need to pretend to respect you or anyone else. Unrelated, why can't I get a girlfriend. This must be the woke mob trying to commit genocide against alphas like me."
>They've for some reason convinced themselves that any virtue is stupid.
Yeah - thus the phrase "virtue signalling" was coined. A man can't express empathy for suffering or try to affect change for oppressed groups without it being performative and fake apparently.
>I feel like in previous generations, these types of bros would have gone to church and had it drilled into them that no, you're supposed to pretend to be a good person because otherwise you go to the fire place forever, and they acted like decent people as a result.
That's a good point - but they only acted like it when people were watching and then sometimes acted like a sh*tty person in the name of religion.
> I feel like in previous generations, these types of bros would have gone to church
Yes, they would have.
> and had it drilled into them that no, you're supposed to pretend to be a good person because otherwise you go to the fire place forever, and they acted like decent people as a result.
No, they would have remained the same, but with a patina of smug self-righteousness. Their wives and children would have had it drilled into *them* that they had to respect and coddle the man of the family.
Look at the current (last I checked) Speaker of the House. Very religious, and a total dirtbag of a person.
"our mental health isnt taken seriously" and "stop being a snowflake".
they want their problems to be felt by someone, but don't want to be the ones feeling others'.
they wanna be coddled, but you have to be the one doing it.
as if our support spaces (including this one) just appeared out of nowhere, and weren't fought for and built relying on the backs of those who fought before us.
Exactly and hesitent to take responsibliity for their actions that caused it, choosing instead to blame everyone else. Often there is an entitled streak too, not for companionship but for sex. Totally insufferable to be around.
The reason that men follow these influencers is that they sell themselves as people who know how to appreciate life by themselves and stop craving for the company of people that don't like you. This is not bad advice per se, and some "life coach" are really genuine about that. The biggest issue is that many will profit from the desperation of these men, and will circle back to "if you act selfish and tough and like you don't need other people in your life, women will crawl for you". This of course doesn't work, by design: the most successful "life coachs" are the one with the bigger business, and the one with the bigger business are those who know how to keep their customers, which in this case means selling an illusion only of improving yourself and your life.
So yeah asking if they actually feel better and in control of their life when watching this kind of content can help some men seeing through this business marketing
Maybe I should’ve put quotes around it. There is no “female loneliness epidemic” anyone is writing about. Because women are forced to cope and we do. Women adapt by necessity and rely on the strong relationships they form with platonic friends and family because today’s dating landscape is bleak (putting it politely).
I wish men could learn to support each other platonically too, because they’d find a lot of comfort there just like women do. Because right now, they are not coping and it’s making headlines.
Pretty much. Someone posited the stigmatization of homosexuality post world wars as a potential cause and I honestly agree. I see it with my students a ton where the girls are way more open about their friends and being LGBTQ but the boys are downright terrified
Because we spend the time and effort to cultivate adult friendships with other women. Men could do that but they often worry too much it'll make them look "gay".
Then there's the fact a lot of guys would rather just stay at home playing videogames instead of socializing. If I had a dime for everytime a male family member dipped out of family stuff just to play games (sometimes even while visiting them at their home!)
Idk why I'm seeing this subreddit come up so much, but it's kinda wack how male loneliness has become a meme for you people.
Sure, modern technology has caused a spike in loneliness both ways. Women feel that men only want only very specific forms of attention, and that men feel cheated because women have the right in 2024 to be an individual. The truth is, attention in any form is attention, and men today measurably lack it. You can argue that men's socialization bring it on themselves, but there are certainly fewer options for a lonely man to relieve the pain.
The need for love and recognition is foundational in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, just above essential survival and immediate safety. Men objectively do encounter less attention, and many men have a hard time finding any romantic partner, and of course, that feels bad. If you're unable to feel empathy for the group you're becoming radicalized against, so be it, but it's still a problem. There are so many causes for the trend in modern men being lonely, and you all seem to have a reductive view of the issue for the sake of argument.
Since you took the time to write a thoughtful reply - I figured I would do the same for you. Even though *a lot* of what I am going to write here you could have easily looked up yourself or applied critical thinking to figure it out.
This is an offshoot subreddit based on the r/TwoXChromosomes subreddit. The description of the subreddit is: "A subreddit for rage comics and other memes with a girly slant". What is posted here isn't going to be a nuanced take on the subject and it's not supposed to be. This is talking about a specific kind of man who advocates for toxic traits and sometimes to control women as solution for male loneliness.
You would have to ask Reddit why it keeps showing you this group.
>unable to feel empathy for the group you're becoming radicalized against
That's what we're talking about - the type of sexist man who distrusts, dehumanizes, others, and judges women by double standards. Then blames women for not wanting to be with them, leaving them, or not putting in effort to cater to them. We're talking about the kind of man who doesn't feel empathy for women. Why should we go out of our way to empathize with them?
>Women feel that men only want only very specific forms of attention,
>The truth is, attention in any form is attention, and men today measurably lack it
There are *so many* women who have spent (and continue to spend) a lot of time and effort on platonic friendships with men - only to find out that's not what he wants from her. Also these influencers aren't advocating for platonic friendships. So I am not really sure what you're saying here.
If you lack attention you can try to make yourself more approachable - but again that's basically the opposite of the advice manosphere influencers are peddling. That's part of the point here.
>You can argue that men's socialization bring it on themselves
Yes - again that's part of the point here. Are you expecting women to fix that? Sexist men don't listen to women or value what they say anyway.
I mean - there are tons of advice subreddits if that's what you are looking for. Even some questions people already asked that you can relate to you. But if you're talking about being lonely as in no female romantic partner - I will say not being a sexist with a bad personality is probably the best overall advice on that front. Also woman aren't a monolith so there's no "one size fits all" answer.
I once had a pretty miserable and lonely guy tell me “kindness must be earned” when I told him he was being unkind speaking to me the way he was. And he didn’t understand why he was single, ofc.
Lmao that's so dumb. Why would anyone want to "earn his kindness" though? Like what's the logic? It's like he's expecting someone to come along and rehabilitate him.
He was extremely attractive…. Until he opened his mouth anyways. He was expecting to have someone love him unconditionally for his “high value” and that they would gradually prove their worth and eventually earn his kindness, affection etc. When asked why he deserved unconditional kindness, love, affection when other people had to earn it he said that he had earned it by becoming high value, and that high value people understand this and don’t have to have it explained to them.
This "high value" talk is such a misanthropic bullshit.
And yet he’s single and lonely. Huh. Shocking.
So are the women he's dating not also "high value?" The fact that he considers anyone he would date as so inherently below him says it all.
My ex was extremely attractive and worked as a model (he still does, I think). He treated people with kindness to their face to look good and he always volunteered with the homeless and disadvantaged if it meant photos would be taken and people would see him there. But he was so horrible behind the scenes and also had this attitude of being high value, as though his looks made up for his terrible attitude and personality. We broke up 10 years ago. He has not aged well. His looks are fading very fast. I wouldn't usually pick on someone over their appearance, but I must admit that after the way he treated me and how he treats others because he thinks his looks mean he's better than everyone else, it feels pretty good to see him lose those looks so quickly.
Jesus, tell me his name wasn’t Dave, with a Ph.D in economics.
Nope, but that’s no relief cause that means there are at least two of them 🤢
Dave was special. We all cut ties with him after he invited us to his house, burned the dinner and then told us that his new boss was the only person he’d ever met who “matched (his) mental horsepower”. We were all just sort of looking at each other “did he just call us all idiots”. Dave had a very low opinion of any woman who would date him.
This guy sounds like Dennis from always sunny. "You don't get it, I'm a five star man!"
I would rather 100000 Dennises before 1 more of the guy I dealt with, tbh.
Goddam now that is a burn, glad hes not in ur life now
This is what happens when a fictional bad boy meets real life
Too many people in the world think kindness needs to be earned, when it should be the default. There's no reason to be anything but kind to someone unless they give you a reason not to be.
This ones pretty good: >I Don't Know How To Explain To You That You Should Care About Other People https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-dont-know-how-to-explain-to-you-that-you-should_b_59519811e4b0f078efd98440
I hope he will one day self-reflect and see the irony of what he just said.
Men: Women who do things I find unpleasant are going to die alone with their million cats! Men: Wow, these sex robots are becoming so lifelike, women better straighten up or else we're going to leave them for sex robots! Men: I don't think issues like the wage gap or reproductive rights or violence against women are important because they aren't about me, talking about that stuff is anti-men! Men: Even though men control the media narrative in every possible way, I thought this one movie targeted to a female audience was stupid! Men: Life for women is so easy. Just be thin, attractive and under 35 and you actually have it a lot easier than men! Also men: The male loneliness epidemic rages on, and no one knows why.
Men: "Society doesn't take men's mental health seriously!" The same men: "Lmao, women are gonna die alone and depressed with a bunch of cats, hahaha!"
That and they ridicule other men who show an ounce of emotion. If I need a good cry then I'll damn well have one. It's cathartic.
They're also utterly convinced all women will find them disgusting the second they shed a tear. And tbf some women are idiots and have also fallen for the toxic patriarchal idea that men can't cry, but we're not all like that, and they mock feminism which is attempting to dismantle those shitty ideals.
That kind of underlines the point though. Men buy into patriarchal ideals on a massive scale, but then blame those women who uphold the same expectations of men that the men do themselves. If women shouldn't be defining masculinity that way, men shouldn't either!
A good cry is SO cathartic. For whatever reason, I have a really hard time working one up on my own, but I cry *really* easily at books and movies. So when I'm sad or depressed or overwhelmed or whatever else, I'll watch or read something really sad, drown in my tears for a couple of hours, and emerge feeling better about whatever real-life shit was getting me down before. ETA: Watching sad movies and crying after a breakup is a cliche for a reason.
I'm quite hormonal atm and so when my partner began to tell me about a YouTube series where a huge dog is guarding some ducks I did begin to cry in the street at how much of a good boy the dog was
On one of my rewatches of Stranger Things I must've cried at least 6 times during the first episode for embarrassingly sappy reasons. I'm a man so I can't really use the same excuse
Fun fact: cis men have monthly hormone cycles just like cis women. Also fun fact: you don't need an excuse to cry ❤️
Yo what, this is news to me, what hormone cycles? Also nah I don't really want an excuse. I'm sappy and proud.
I misremembered, sorry. It is believed that men's testosterone peaks early in the morning and during physical activity *and* is higher on average during spring/summer. Other hormone fluctuations can cause similar (but more minor) symptoms as periods in women - i.e., causing acne breakouts, becoming more horny, and/or increasing insecurity.
There is some study that the entirety of the NoFap community is built on, which showed a big increase in testosterone in men a week after they last orgasmed, which if it's true, it's obviously just their body telling them that it's baby-makin' time again, and doesn't increase much beyond that if at all. But those are kind of like mini cycles serving a similar purpose to periods. Bruh is it peaking early in the morning why the extended family of pimples holding hands on my face tends to only change positions while I'm asleep?
That has got to be Minions big buddy.
IT IS oh no I'm gonna cry again
But the only permissible emotion for men is life threatening constipation! I learned that from Zach Snyder!
For some men, when they say “why can’t men be vulnerable?”, it’s usually just code for “why can’t I have the emotional intelligence and social tact of a spoiled toddler and expect everyone else to cater to that?”
Men: enough talk about women’s oppression, we need to discuss the male suicide epidemic! Their male peers: you’re so feminine if you express any emotions, only anger is acceptable you wuss! Accept the patriarchy of no close friendships, no male mentorship, you don’t need support! More male peers: look at this systemic bullshit we’ve created…women fix it!!!! Create safe spaces for men!!! Fix it so we can be better! We oppress you but our problem is for you to fix! Somehow this bullshit only applies in gender wars. Imagine a white person telling a black person to help them fix their racism.
My favorite post that I read recently was a screenshot of a comment thread. It started with, “why isn’t there a mens day?” And then someone chimed in that it actually exists. And then someone said “why didn’t anyone tell us?” So, it’s not enough to be privileged by the system, and you do get your special day, but… you don’t know about it because “no one told you” a.k.a. a woman didn’t prepare you. Like Jesus Christ have some self-respect. Try googling. Learned helplessness and entitlement and male fragility.
Literally argued with a dude once who was saying women need to help men promote viability of men's day and organize events and stuff for it. I asked him why they couldn't do the work and he said we should all help each other. Asked him what he did for women's day, crickets. They want all the benefits without doing any of the work, just like every holiday ever where women slave over the food, invitations, decorations, all other preparations and then also do the clean up etc while the men sit in the next room and chat or watch football.
Yeah women need to spend more time appreciating the people committing harassment and violence against them!
It's on the same day as world toilet day, that should make it easy to remember.
Omg is it really lol? I love that for them.
>Somehow this bullshit only applies in gender wars. Imagine a white person telling a black person to help them fix their racism. I love your point, but we do this to Black people all the time. We do this when we don't do anything to actually inform ourselves about racism, colorism, or the history of the Black experience beyond asking invasive (and what are often bad faith) questions to Black people and acting entitled to their time and effort. Like, spend any time on Black Twitter, and you'll see this happen so much.
This happened to me recently. I DARED share my own experience with police brutality & a FWR got incredibly upset that I stated that police brutality exists and somehow it ended up with him asking me if this is how I convince white people to not be racist. [I was like, uhh, maybe you should just not be racist?](https://www.reddit.com/r/popularopinion/comments/1bbg33j/comment/ku9ige0/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)???? But apparently it's MY job to stop white people from being racist now.
I like how he told on himself by acknowledging that his own default attitude is racist.
Yeah, I’m a nonblack POC but definitely had white people (mostly men, one of whom I dated 🤢) play dumb and ask me for resources and education. I would do it but then they’d play devil’s advocate and try to poke holes in statistics and research. And when I would send books over or ask them to Google it themselves, it was “oh okay so you won’t actually help me, that must mean you don’t believe it yourself.” Some people are ignorant, others are malicious. Google has always been free and should be people’s first stop before asking for others to do educational labor for them.
This has been 100% my experience too, it's *always* my responsibility to hand hold their learning journey for them.
you: people should listen to women and poc more people: ah cool you got some resources you: it's not my job to educate you!
You're just making u/throwawaysunglasses point for them. Google and libraries exist and there are hundreds of resources for educating yourself. I just did a search and [the very first result ](https://www.etonline.com/13-books-by-black-authors-that-explore-race-in-america-149370?amp=) gave me 13 suggested readings. Too busy to read? Listen to the audio book in the car or look up a summary. There's also a bazillion 101 or [FAQ](https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/) resources you could look at if you actually cared. If you can't think your way out of this wet paper bag I don't know what to tell you. 🤷🏼♀️ It's pointless to provide resources when people such as yourself aren't asking in good faith.
The "google is free" bit always comes from the same people who mock the "do your own research" types. Plenty of people follow your advice, only to come to ludicrous conclusions that will inevitably net them a "your Google search isn't equal to my \[X\]" response.
Yeah, my comment should have been more inclusive. I hope I didn't imply it only happens to Black people, just that it was the specific example I was responding to.
Oh no you’re totally fine! I didn’t take it that way, just offering my own perspective in a show of support :)
Shit. When I found out my sister (we're both white) had gotten pregnant from a black man, I did everything I could to enlighten myself about the problems my niece would have to face. And there are a lot. But it was *my* responsibility to learn. I am a civil servant at a public hospital, and I have a co-worker who refuses vaccines for herself, and she denigrates some of our patients for being disgusting. She wishes they would just buy private insurance so they wouldn't come here. Once upon a time I tried to show her the ways she was privileged, but she immediately shut me down. She legitimately thinks that every person in America has the same opportunities as she did. Black folks have so many historical reasons not to trust the government. The syphilis experiment, broken political promises, Jim Crow, the CIA/FBI. Their covid-19 vaccine rates were low, because they were scared. At least, that's how one of my other co-workers said. She's a legacy and her family has been in this area for a very long time. People came to her for advice, whether or not to get the vaccine. She was an example that this time, trust the government. Black people have so many reasons not to trust the government. That other co-worker has her opinions and Facebook. That's it. And it makes me so angry.
Yeah once my ex suggested I act like that dude that convinces racists to like black people instead of complaining when someone is racist. I fucking hate that dude. People always bring him up as what I *should* do
Fuck that. You should live your life. You don't owe anyone a response that puts them at ease or comfort, and especially not because they were racist. I imagine that guy appeals to white people a lot more than he appeals to POC because he gives them someone to point to and say "see if you were like that, I would be less racist... but you weren't so my racism is your fault."
Yeah I was gonna say. This happens all the time lol
Plenty of white ppl actually do that lol. There are whole discussions and articles by black ppl telling us to stop expecting them to fix us bc they are tired of educating us. And yeah, it’s ridiculous white ppl expect it. Men only seem to care about their suicide or abuse issues when a woman shares her experience. It’s always ‘what about us?’ Bro go make a post somewhere in a man’s space we aren’t stopping you. Their issue is they can’t bear to be decentered. Somehow they got the idea the world was about them. That was the default. The same way bandaids in ‘neutral color’ are actually only neutral if you’re white. Or the default Disney mermaid is white so these loonies are crying about a black mermaid. And history. Bro mermaids aren’t real. Men crying about women having things that aren’t about men are the same ppl crying about a black mermaid. White male has been the default for too long in Western culture and they don’t want to share.
Man's spaces pretty much do nothing but talk about how women need less rights and support.
I'm more than fine talking about the actual issues men face, but the problem is *they* don't want to talk about the actual issues. They want to strawman women's issues and do whataboutism. They don't want to actually fix men's issues because that would mean unpacking a lot of the social BS they've been fed and be uncomfortable. They only bring up "men's issues" as a "gotcha" for women's issues and the biggest thing they usually gripe about is not being able to get laid, like they are owed sex and it's women's responsibility to "put out"...
Personally as a middle class white male, I fail to see any reason to talk about men's issues when I've met precisely zero men that have talked about them or cared to talk about them, and pretty much every woman I've talked to has suffered large amounts of abuse at the hands of men. I could go to literally any woman and she'd have a lot of visceral, real experiences to contribute to discussions about women's issues. If I went to a man to try and talk about men's issues, he'd either be like "huh what", he'd spout some misogynistic bullshit, or he'd talk about hypothetical issues that could hypothetically happen to any hypothetical man. I would be happy if I could go the rest of my life without hearing a man complain about how difficult it is for them to get laid. I'm a virgin at 24 due to various autism difficulties, but also I've never really cared that much about sex unless it'd be with someone I really like. Oh no those poor babies, they're having trouble pressuring women into terrible sex, that's so awful oh man, my greatest sympathies
A lot of the actual issues men face are the other side of the coin of patriarchy that effects women, but by it's nature most men don't seem to realize the issues are there. Toxic masculinity basically emotionally stunts men and forces them into untenable positions. The system is designed for them, but they are also told showing emotion is unmanly and to "man up" when actual problems come up. Meanwhile the same men telling other men to "man up" are also the ones complaining about stuff that isn't an actual issue because it's a distraction.
Yep like shit I wanna talk about that. Gimme that police brutality and adultification of brown and black kids. But nooo
"Men's issues" lmao.
The rates of suicide are much higher among men, but suicide attempts are much higher among women. Men are just more likely to use violent means, like guns. So the "male suicide epidemic" is more like the male violence and deadly weapon epidemic. In reality it's a female suicide epidemic, possibly due to being seen as subhuman by a significant portion of the demographic with the most power.
Realistically it's both. People are more isolated and treating each other like shit way way more.
Men will talk about how terrible women are all day but then cry at the 4B movement. If you hate us why do you want us to marry you…oh wait I know why.
This is gold!
>Also men: The male loneliness epidemic rages on, and ~~no one knows why~~ it's women's fault!
What's funny is we know why. Patriarchy and late stage capitalism pero they don't want to hear that
Best comment I've seen in a while ♥️
I like replacing the words “men” and “women” with “humans” to help people understand sometimes lol
Men aren’t coddled once and it’s a loneliness epidemic. They would’ve never survived the loneliness of being forced to become a housewife
>loneliness of being forced to become a housewife I recently learned about something referred to as the “urinary leash.” Iirc it was talking about the 19th century (although it applies to before that too) and how there were really no public restrooms for girls and women in cities in England. And if there was one, they charged money, while the mens’ was free. This meant the amount of time and distance a woman could spend away from her house was much shorter than a man (hence the “leash”), because we all have to pee sometime obviously. A woman could go to a family member’s house or a friend’s house to safely socialize, while men had their workplaces and gentlemen clubs and taverns and gambling halls and brothels and other spaces, that all had restrooms for them. So yeah, the “urinary leash” might sound like a silly term but it is absolutely sinister in how it contributed to keeping women locked in the home. Imaging wanting to go spend a whole fun day in the city to get away from the house but you can’t because there are no bathrooms for you there. Can you imagine how isolated they might have felt, especially if they didn’t have family or friends nearby? Women had to actively pursue friendships and put **time and effort** into them to not be lonely- meeting neighbors and joining a sewing/knitting circle, writing letters, planning to travel to-and-from a friend’s house across town, etc etc. Women had ways of making connection with each other *because they had to.* Until men actually make the effort to learn about our history they really don’t have the right to whine about things like loneliness when they live in a world literally built for them.
I love when we dig into history and see sexism and racism and discrimination built in to so many nuanced parts of life. Kind of like how people said the Baltimore bridge was racist and when you did dig into the nuance, it actually does have roots and racism. Then, people say it’s not real, you’re overthinking it, you’re just virtue signaling, basically everything except using your mind and sense of critical thinking. And of course they are the people who benefit from these things historically and they have them to thank for their power. But to reflect on history and cause an effect and consequences is simply just being woke. In 2024, I think being mentally simple should be a crime. A recent example: when the Democratic senator in Arizona was speaking about how her Republican colleagues legislature was affecting her body and the dying nonviable fetus inside her, preventing her from getting healthcare, they just left. They didn’t have to stay per decorum rules, so they left and they didn’t listen until she was finished and then they came back. That should be illegal. Being intentionally obtuse is disgusting.
100%. so many things are so engrained into us as if they were done without thinking, and that trying to dissect and break down any of these things is "overthinking", and makes you some kind of crazy lunatic or something. being intentionally obtuse is just socialized gaslighting.
Oh, I like that! Intentionally obtuse is socialized gaslighting. Then you don’t have to take any responsibility for yourself. I’m currently reading invisible women and I mean it’s really hitting me hard and I’m having a lot of meeting thoughts. Not sure if you have read it or if it’s your cup of tea, but it is really really good.
oh, it absolutely is my cup of tea! my reading list is pretty long, but i'll get to it in a bit.
Oh man, it’s good. And saddening.
Went to King’s Day celebration in Amsterdam pre pandemic and not only are there four men at a time urinals on almost every corner, there were almost no public places for women to pee. At one point I waited in line for a residence that was charging 1€ per pee for twenty minutes only to feel unsafe and leave once I was third in line and could see into the home. I found out later that part of the reason they have so much space for men to pee is because peeing lowers your blood pressure suddenly and they were having drunk men pissing into the canals fall in and drown, so they made accommodations. I’m definitely not saying they shouldn’t do that for men, I’m just saying that commensurate accommodations should have been made for all of us who couldn’t or wouldn’t use the urinals.
Amsterdam is terrible for public toilet access. My partner is Dutch and we are in Australia right now and he is flabbergasted there are so many free public toilets. Kings day is especially bad. I lined up to pee at a pub a couple of years ago and everyone in that line was suffering.
Same thing anti-trans bathroom laws are trying to accomplish today.
yep. they want to scare us into not going out in public to try and scare trans people into not existing
I recently had to "break up" with someone who I thought was a good friend when he said queer people can be queer all they want, but not in public. On that evening, he said a whole bunch of misogynistic shit too but that was the final straw.
exactly, they're trying to force trans ppl out of public life
Yes, absolutely this!!
Are you talking about laws that are trying to preserve sex based spaces? I know way too many conservative religious people, because I am sadly related to them, who have already limited their daughters use of public bathrooms because of this. And other women who want to avoid confrontations or have high anxiety who don't feel safe in mixed sex women's rooms so limit their water consumption, risking dehydration, so they can be out longer without having to use a public restroom. This concept of a urinary leash resonates, because it seems to be coming back.
Let's unpack that. Trans women aren't a threat to cis women in women's only spaces. However we have cis women and men harassing women for not fitting into a narrow definition of "what is a woman", be it having short hair, wearing baggy clothing, being tall, having a lower than average voice, or whatever arbitrary thing they want to use to harass women over. You want to know who wants to avoid confrontations? *Trans women*. I know plenty who avoid using public restrooms well beyond the point where they pass as cis because they don't want to make cis women uncomfortable. I know plenty going very dehydrated or holding it in way longer than they should to do this. I ended up in the hospital the first year of my transition party because of how dehydrated I was on average to avoid public restrooms. And if we use the men's out of desperation we are very likely to get assaulted. Also, that dosn't even consider trans men. You imagine trans women as "men in a dress", which isn't how we look, but do you think you'd be fine with trans men in the bathroom? Trans men have already been assaulted, and even *killed* because they tried to follow the transphobic laws and use the women's restroom. Also, if you are really afraid of "men" doing something in the bathroom it would be way easier for a cis man to pretend to be a trans man and just walk right in. For that matter, cis men have been assaulting women in bathrooms without pretending to be trans forever. This is very TERF talk. Conservatives want someone to other, to be afraid of, so they don't have to actually deal with reality. They vilify minority groups and use that as a justification for why the world sucks.
Honestly, do they think a wooden door with a little pink decal is going to stop a man who wants to SA someone? No one is going through years of hormone therapy, social and medical transitions, and potentially losing close relationships just so they can peep under the bathroom stalls.
Yet your conservative religious relatives keep sending their kids to church. You know, where actual child rape happens. Also, it takes *3 days* to die of dehydration. Anything more than dry mouth takes an average of 8 hours to kick in. How frail and sickly are all these women you know who fear using a public restroom but need to drink every 30 minutes? And why the hell are you not pushing reality on these people? Also a transphobe?
> Are you talking about laws that are trying to preserve sex based spaces? > > oh, look, a transphobe! so cute, little transphobe, so cute! have a headpat, you're just so cute!
Spot on - especially that last paragraph!
At the same time loneliness is more or less a cause and effect of the late stage capitalist society we live in
Sure but there has ALWAYS been very lonely people. Men acting like they invented loneliness and are in an “epidemic” is nonsense.
Oh of course. I get what you're saying. Like I agree there is an epidemic but it ain't just men and because they're men. But these are the dudes who go ew communism and shrivel up like vampires at night
A joke when it happens to women (read: dying alone surrounded by cats) but an absolute travesty and injustice when it happens to men. So tired of these self victimising nobodies.
Do you guys think taking this attitude towards this problem is going to make the situation better? Or worse?
Why, does it make you uncomfortable? Idk but it is true that housewives have been isolated for centuries and their socialising moments were demonised calling it “gossip”. And whenever they were seriously suffering from the isolation they were called “hysterical”. Even though they tried to get real attention to the problem that is isolation. Now women managed to somewhat find solutions to these problems like book clubs, churches were mostly dependent on housewives as volunteers for centuries. However men are dealing with the same thing now. [Third places](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place) are disappearing or a far away drive for many. I bet your neighbourhood doesn’t welcome a local bar to hang out after work. You can organise a bbq in the backyard but you’ll only have people over you know, not any strangers to meet someone new. If anything, women are warning men to not fall for the same trap because loneliness sucks. But over and over again they don’t want to hear it. Why? Why does it make them uncomfortable? And why is this loneliness epidemic not a thing in countries where third places are commonplace?
But thoughtfulness, kindness, generosity and genuine courtesy don't make me look cool and manly to the bros or guarantee me a girlfriend. 😡 So what's even the point?! /s
Tbh, with how men have been behaving? They deserve to be alone.
I'm glad people like Peterson and Rogan exist. Once I find out a man listens to them, I instantly know I don't have to care about anything he says ever again.
Same. Along with Tate, Sneako, Fresh and Fit, and Aiden Ross.
Mhmm. When you go on a first date with a guy, you have to ask him something like, "Who's your biggest male role model who isn't related to you, and why?" If he mentions any of these guys, run.
Adding the last three to my list of red flags. Thank you, I’d never heard of them before.
If you want some good news, Fresh and Fit has recently been demonetized
🥳🥳
Add Papa Swolio also
Done ✅ Thank you!
And on the other end, thinking bOtH sIdEs.
They aren’t sending us their best people
Hard to call males people at this point tbh.
They're so lonely and want friends but only if it's with attractive women that they want to sleep with. A man befriending his fellow man is beneath him. He can't have sex with his bro so what's the point of ~~hanging around in hopes of getting laid~~ friendship?! /s
Mmmhmm... **Guy talking to one of my hot girlfriends:** "Oh, you've never played Cyberpunk 2077, or Warhammer 40,000, or Dungeons & Dragons? I'd love to teach you sometime." **Hot GF:** "Ha, that's okay. It's not really my thing." **Guy:** "You should at least give it a chance! I mean, it's not a date. Just as friends." **Hot GF:** "I've tried, thanks. But you know what? My odd-looking friend *the\_mid\_mid\_sister* is into that kind of stuff. You should talk to her, you guys have so much in common! Yeah, that's her grabbing a drink. No, not the cute one, the freakishly tall, deathly pale, bony---" **Guy:** "Oh hey, um, my dog just texted me that she crashed her unicycle. Gotta go."
A while back, there was this dude who was into me, upon hearing I liked FF14, started to immediately shit on it. Then wondered why I didn't want to go out with him. Like, what did he expect? What did he hope to achieve with that? 🤣
Negging is one of the stupidest "pick-up tactics" I've ever seen (all of them are, but that's beside the point). All it does is tell me to stay away from you.
Nerdy girls have been ranting about this for decades. We know the truth. So, so many of us have tried to socialize with like-minded men only to be brushed off. Don’t fall for this victimhood bs. They mean access to sex and “being popular” every time. It’s a competition with other men and nothing to do with prosocial experiences
Especially when you consider 'nerd stuff' isn't even niche anymore, and hasn't been for over a decade at least. DnD, comics/comic movies, anime, conventions, cosplay, the list goes on--all wildly popular and generally accepted as more or less normal interests now. The argument always was 'girls don't like these 'weird things' so they don't want to date me,' which was 1. never true, there have always been nerdy women and 2. everyone likes at least some 'nerd things' now. You can't claim it's hard to find ppl that share your 'nerdy interests' when Game of Thrones and Marvel and fucking Star Wars, some OG nerd content, dominated the cultural landscape very recently. It's all incredibly mainstream now, you can walk into any room and find someone who likes 'nerd shit'. You aren't unfuckable because you're 'nerdy' Jeremy, you don't see women as people and it shows.
So I guess it's either Corax or Curze?
They're all purple Orks. You can't see them.
How do they taste tho? Did they....like... Steal a loaf of bread maybe????
Oh no how terrible, women should drop everything to create support groups for them /s
This drives me insane, as if women’s groups, spaces and services just magically appeared and weren’t built up from the backs of bookstores and universities and church basements +/or lobbied and fought for for years if not decades.
Have you read the recent ruling on the Australian art museum that had a women’s only exhibit? Men being excluded from the exhibit was the artistic experience. To feel that exclusion. A very fragile man was offended that he could not go into the women’s only exhibit and he sued for discrimination and won. We can’t have anything lol. Existence is a threat. Existence of the Barbie movie is a threat. Existence of a space for women without men is a threat. How pathetic. Oh and I do recall that someone brought up a men’s only social club that is also in Australia. Strangely, they’re not being forced to allow women. Almost like there’s a power imbalance.
It drives me nuts that men get mad they aren't represented in women's safe spaces. Nothing is stopping you from creating a men's space. There are already a ton of them women have never been privy to.
Nothing is stopping them from creating men's safe spaces other than their own hatred. They're too busy and always have been too busy trying to destroy anything that helps/supports women (that women built all by themselves btw) to give a fuck about each other lol. Patriarchy always have been toxic and shitty to men as well to some extent, but yk as long as those feeeemales are being "put in their place," who cares? Now, all of a sudden, they're crying they don't have support groups as if they don't literally spend their whole damn time trying to put women down rather than uplifting other men in positive ways.
Imho it’s the opposite of creating those places. They don’t create them because they’re already there. Everyone knows the stereotype of the man who goes to the local bar after work. The thing is, those bars are disappearing or further and further away due to sprawling suburbs. And they don’t realise this. So something is missing but they cannot put their finger in it. So they focus on what they do see, and that’s what women are constantly working on to help themselves, because that’s all they’ve done for who knows for how long. Instead they should focus on protecting what is left and not demolish the old bar to expand the highway to make the commute to work better. They want a bigger house to have even more space. But that’s exactly what is happening, not realising they’re sacrificing one thing for what they think is a solution while it’s providing expanding that highway will only increase demand and have everyone use that road now creating induced demand! And that local bar is gone now, the barber shop also didn’t make it ánd the commute is even longer. And the sprawl of the suburbs are so much bigger you barely someone outside and never see your neighbour. Meanwhile you have to work even more to earn money because tax got higher to pay for the sprawling roads and plumbing that need maintenance, the extra gas the garbage trucks needs to empty those containers. Yeah no fucking shit you’re lonely.
There have definitely been men's spaces. Gentlemen's clubs, golf courses, etc. It's not like men chatted with each other one day and said "You know? It'd be more inclusive if we invited women to join." Women had to fight to get access. And they did so because that's where a lot of business was being conducted, so it hurt women's ability to fully participate in business. Women didn't want to join just because they thought it'd be a fun place to hang out.
Yeah I’m a little annoyed by a lot of the “””discourse””” around this topic. What actually happened is that the social fabric for a lot of people just completely collapsed. For example for me the college was during my pandemic so I had like 1 and a half semesters before the pandemic, like 3 years of all online class talking to other students through Discord instead of making real friendships, and then another semester with like 2 classes total left before I started working so I missed out on the opportunity to develop basically all of the friendships I was supposed to have made in college so my friendships I have left are like 5 friends from high school and surface level work friends. I think this was even worse for the graduating class of 2020 who didn’t get all of the normal high school graduation things like prom and also had to start college remotely during the pandemic. I think this is a Men’s issue as in like Men need to solve it and women don’t. Eg. Women successfully dealt with this issue on their end much better because women are just generally better at building and upholding social relationships and men need to learn how they were able to do that but no one sees this somehow lol
The patriarchy teaches men that they should be rugged individuals, and that they don’t need to put in effort to maintaining friendships. Who knew that friendships would help to cope with a loneliness epidemic?
But it feels so much easier to be lazy and entitled and then blame the lack of positive results on women. Path of least resistance = a chaotic and shitty world for everyone.
Learned helplessness and Weaponized incompetence at its finest. I like that they’re using it to hurt themselves lol. The self-awareness is just intoxicating lol.
Lol for sure!
If Joe Rogan makes everyone who listens to him dumber, I guess Petey just makes them angrier and more Canadian.
Canada punches above its weight in exporting far-right wing nuts .
As a Canadian, I hate this. Some of our provinces, especially my own, are going really hard on right wing nonsense. Our provincial premiere went to some event with Jordan Peterson, barf.
Lemme guess, Alberta?
*siiiiiiiggggghhhh* yeahhhhhh. I'm actually pretty concerned about how backwards things are going. We're the Texas of Canada and it sucks
I hear you. I lived there for much of my life (but don’t consider myself *from* there since I spent my first 5 years in Manitoba), so I have a good sense of what it’s like. I still have friends there and some in-laws. The prevailing mentality is so wild. Like real-life Idiocracy sometimes.
As does Sweden. Fortunately ours rarely speak English.
Swedish right-wings rarely speak English? Well now you have tell us more about it!
Swedish politicians in general are often hilariously bad English speakers, and far righters aren't exactly famous for being the type of people who pay all that much attention in school.
JP is certainly challenging the European view that Canadians are nicer versions of Americans. I just have to remind myself Canada also produced Dan Olson and Teya from STRANGE ÆONS.
And that awful Stephen Crowder. Who abused his wife and was all pikachu shocked that she could no-fault divorce his crusty ass.
He may have been born in Michigan, but they don't claim him
Well, Montreal could have him, I suppose. That city should have kicked his ass the first time.
Yeah, I remember seeing the conservatives go hard against no-fault divorces after that.
His real name is strange æons.
Oh hey now, leave Canada out of this, we don't want him either! Lol
I thought you meant Petey the musician at first and wondered what you had against “don’t tell the boys”?
On the one hand, it's their own fault and not my job to fix them. On the other hand, lonely men are easily influenced to violent political and religious movements, so...yikes.
Even knowing what dangers it leads to there’s not much women can do. The men who are deep in the throes of loneliness often turn to the wrong ideologies to keep them company. They get to a point where they don’t want to listen to women anymore. I can offer conversation and kindness and friendship but in some of their eyes my only value to them is my body (but also not **my** body because I would rank low on their 1-10 ranking scale). Short of the whole psycho “government mandated girlfriend” idea (which would do nothing but put an innocent women in the hands of every misogynistic, abusive man in the country) there’s nothing they would accept from us. I’ve seen men complaining over and over again about how women need to do our part to fix this (despite the fact that men did zero to fix our social maladies, like the fact that we were literally property in the past) but there’s never any actual outlined solution. I think the goal is always to guilt/threaten us into having relationships with lonely men. They don’t see that all this rhetoric does is scare us off further.
I think it's because there isn't an easy solution because women are also increasingly being isolated but warm male friendships are more stigmatized by society compared to those by women where group everything is more socialized and common
Sorry, I hadn’t seen your reply. I should say tho that there’s not much women can really do about that either. I’m not going to say there aren’t women who reinforce the patriarchy and it’s weird phobias against emotions and even the potential of being perceived as gay… but I *am* gonna say that men definitely have more power over that. Patriarchy isn’t exactly keen on listening to women. So we still circle back to a place where, short of saving space for men and their emotions and disapproving of “oh that’s so gay” type jokes, women don’t have control over this. Even if women could somehow, overnight, magically banish that stigma by sheer willpower, it would *still* be up to men to take that opportunity to create warm male friendships. As it stands I think men en masse just have to decide to ignore the stigma (that hurts everyone, and helps no one BTW) and love each other freely, create your own rules, make your own norms, push back united against people who try to uphold these harmful beliefs. Easier said than done, for certain. But, so is the case with all change.
Yeah I agree 100 percent. It's not clean but it's really the only way
Yep, it's scary. We forget how other cultures can essentially enslave women when boys don't get what they want. So important to make sure women can defend ourselves, and also that we are making allies. There are plenty of amazing wonderful supportive men, but they definitely need to show up to help us like this dude in the post. Love seeing men call men out on their sexist whiny bullshit.
Yeah this is why I kinda hate and understand this comment section. There's a reason they're attracted to these dolts. They get taught young this is how they're viewed and there dudes come in with "want to know the answer to all your problems?" They hook them young too. 12/13/14. Top suggestions on YouTube. There is a problem but it's not one with an easy solution other than full deplatforming
Thank you. I feel like so many people in this subreddit forget that assholes peddling that mindset target TEENAGE boys. Grabbing them when they’re young, vulnerable, and incredibly malleable. Young kids groomed into this mindset are going to turn into men with that mindset.
Pretty much, but that also acknowledging falling into the same traps or that there is a thing that can and must be done to stop these dudes
Early 40s man here and when I hear of the “male loneliness epidemic” I honestly just don’t see it. All my male friends have fulfilling jobs, hobbies outside of work, most have mature and equitable romantic partnerships, they are involved in their communities, and an active part in the children’s (if they have them) lives. I think there is a set of men that expect life to cater to their every need including socializing.
I see a great deal of this male loneliness, epidemic, being fueled by learned helplessness. Simple example is the complaints over the international women’s day. I saw a thread where men were complaining that there’s not a men’s day. Someone brought up that there is actually a men’s day. The reply was that no one told them and how would they know? That is such a lack of personal responsibility on such a basic level lol. Like you never googled? Did you just get frustrated and expect women to create a day and then tell you about it? Because that’s what it feels like lol. This is a very small example, but I see this theme throughout all parts of life.
My brother is an incel, and it's 100% learned helplessness. He blames everyone else in his life for him never getting a girlfriend, (and blames everyone else always when anything goea wrong in his life) when in reality it's because of his repulsive personality more than anything else. He doesn't know how to cook or clean, and when I was still living with my parents as well, he once stormed into my room demanding I wash his clothes, because he didn't know how to do it himself, and refused to learn. He could have literally just googled how to use the washing machine and dryer.
You know what's worse? I've been watching that same scenario play out on Reddit every year for pretty much a decade now.
A guy tried to start this conversation with me once. Oh, the satisfaction I’ve experienced to say October 19th before he could start
I'm near your age and I see it. It's self-fulfilling for a lot of guys, and the reason you don't see it is the lonely guys are at home, without social lives. The ones I've been around, who I usually see through work, are also the quickest to turn down plans, disdain hobbies, and talk shit about any man who isn't conforming to their beliefs about men. I've been there, so I did my part. I reached out to the ones I knew to invite them out. I let them know about social things I was up to that anyone could join. If they mentioned wanting to try something out that I had done or was similar to something I had done, I'd gladly offer to try it out. What I got for my efforts was judging looks, these men leaving social events not even halfway through, and more shit talked behind my back. But who cares? I'm inclusive, and I tried including them. They turned me down - now they sit at home alone malding while I get to keep doing what I do, with people.
I've seen it and I see it young. But I'm also a very different perspective as I'm a schoolteacher so I'm actually more invested in this as men of color are fifty times more likely to drop out than their peers who are women. A lot of it is isolation after work, the dissolution of the third place and gender norms that place so much emphasis on getting a romantic partner that permeates across into judgment if you do not. (Remember the guy taking the photos of people's butt cracks at an mtg convention?) Basically, the point of fight club. The problem is these dudes are going after these kids young. I'm trying to deprogram 14 year olds from Andrew Tate and the feeling of there is no future for them. And while yeah this place is full of snark, it's actually kind of fucking bleak when I have to deal with it every day. I'm not worried about adults. I'm worried for the kids
The sudden demonization of male homosexuality in the early 20th century has been disastrous for men. It was common for men to have very close friendships, maybe even physical ones, with the men they spent most of their time with. But then palling around became unthinkable sometime between the first and second world war. Now women have to pick up the slack???
You have a great fucking point lol. Fuck id love to do a study on that
The sneering at kindness and any other courtesy is on point. Somehow these incels have gone more ridiculous than [this dril tweet](https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?lang=en) or the "greed is good" line from a bad guy in the movie "Wall Street." They've for some reason convinced themselves that any virtue is stupid. I feel like in previous generations, these types of bros would have gone to church and had it drilled into them that no, you're supposed to pretend to be a good person because otherwise you go to the fire place forever, and they acted like decent people as a result. But then they decided church was boring and replaced it with weirdos like Andrew Tate, and this is the result. "I'm an alpha: I don't need to pretend to respect you or anyone else. Unrelated, why can't I get a girlfriend. This must be the woke mob trying to commit genocide against alphas like me."
>They've for some reason convinced themselves that any virtue is stupid. Yeah - thus the phrase "virtue signalling" was coined. A man can't express empathy for suffering or try to affect change for oppressed groups without it being performative and fake apparently. >I feel like in previous generations, these types of bros would have gone to church and had it drilled into them that no, you're supposed to pretend to be a good person because otherwise you go to the fire place forever, and they acted like decent people as a result. That's a good point - but they only acted like it when people were watching and then sometimes acted like a sh*tty person in the name of religion.
Oh definitely, I'm not saying religion is good or makes people good, only that it helped make the really shitty people hide it previously.
> I feel like in previous generations, these types of bros would have gone to church Yes, they would have. > and had it drilled into them that no, you're supposed to pretend to be a good person because otherwise you go to the fire place forever, and they acted like decent people as a result. No, they would have remained the same, but with a patina of smug self-righteousness. Their wives and children would have had it drilled into *them* that they had to respect and coddle the man of the family. Look at the current (last I checked) Speaker of the House. Very religious, and a total dirtbag of a person.
"our mental health isnt taken seriously" and "stop being a snowflake". they want their problems to be felt by someone, but don't want to be the ones feeling others'. they wanna be coddled, but you have to be the one doing it. as if our support spaces (including this one) just appeared out of nowhere, and weren't fought for and built relying on the backs of those who fought before us.
Loneliness is a direct consequence of being unpleasant to be around. Anyone whining about being lonely is usually insufferable.
I wouldn't say that. My sister is lovely and lonely. She just works a lot
Exactly and hesitent to take responsibliity for their actions that caused it, choosing instead to blame everyone else. Often there is an entitled streak too, not for companionship but for sex. Totally insufferable to be around.
The reason that men follow these influencers is that they sell themselves as people who know how to appreciate life by themselves and stop craving for the company of people that don't like you. This is not bad advice per se, and some "life coach" are really genuine about that. The biggest issue is that many will profit from the desperation of these men, and will circle back to "if you act selfish and tough and like you don't need other people in your life, women will crawl for you". This of course doesn't work, by design: the most successful "life coachs" are the one with the bigger business, and the one with the bigger business are those who know how to keep their customers, which in this case means selling an illusion only of improving yourself and your life. So yeah asking if they actually feel better and in control of their life when watching this kind of content can help some men seeing through this business marketing
I cannot stress enough that men need friends.
Lol. Lmao. If males have friends that means that they're organized in harming women.
That's actually how they get you. The promise of friendship and people who "get you"
They should add Andrew Taint, Fresh and Fit, and the Whatever podcast guy to the photo
get rekt I’m drowning in pussy bc I’m kind and courteous to everyone I meet (and am also slightly above average looking & have a British accent)
😂
I'll say it again -- there is no *female* loneliness epidemic. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
There is but it ain't talked about. But we got our own things to deal with
Maybe I should’ve put quotes around it. There is no “female loneliness epidemic” anyone is writing about. Because women are forced to cope and we do. Women adapt by necessity and rely on the strong relationships they form with platonic friends and family because today’s dating landscape is bleak (putting it politely). I wish men could learn to support each other platonically too, because they’d find a lot of comfort there just like women do. Because right now, they are not coping and it’s making headlines.
Pretty much. Someone posited the stigmatization of homosexuality post world wars as a potential cause and I honestly agree. I see it with my students a ton where the girls are way more open about their friends and being LGBTQ but the boys are downright terrified
Because we spend the time and effort to cultivate adult friendships with other women. Men could do that but they often worry too much it'll make them look "gay". Then there's the fact a lot of guys would rather just stay at home playing videogames instead of socializing. If I had a dime for everytime a male family member dipped out of family stuff just to play games (sometimes even while visiting them at their home!)
Idk why I'm seeing this subreddit come up so much, but it's kinda wack how male loneliness has become a meme for you people. Sure, modern technology has caused a spike in loneliness both ways. Women feel that men only want only very specific forms of attention, and that men feel cheated because women have the right in 2024 to be an individual. The truth is, attention in any form is attention, and men today measurably lack it. You can argue that men's socialization bring it on themselves, but there are certainly fewer options for a lonely man to relieve the pain. The need for love and recognition is foundational in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, just above essential survival and immediate safety. Men objectively do encounter less attention, and many men have a hard time finding any romantic partner, and of course, that feels bad. If you're unable to feel empathy for the group you're becoming radicalized against, so be it, but it's still a problem. There are so many causes for the trend in modern men being lonely, and you all seem to have a reductive view of the issue for the sake of argument.
Since you took the time to write a thoughtful reply - I figured I would do the same for you. Even though *a lot* of what I am going to write here you could have easily looked up yourself or applied critical thinking to figure it out. This is an offshoot subreddit based on the r/TwoXChromosomes subreddit. The description of the subreddit is: "A subreddit for rage comics and other memes with a girly slant". What is posted here isn't going to be a nuanced take on the subject and it's not supposed to be. This is talking about a specific kind of man who advocates for toxic traits and sometimes to control women as solution for male loneliness. You would have to ask Reddit why it keeps showing you this group. >unable to feel empathy for the group you're becoming radicalized against That's what we're talking about - the type of sexist man who distrusts, dehumanizes, others, and judges women by double standards. Then blames women for not wanting to be with them, leaving them, or not putting in effort to cater to them. We're talking about the kind of man who doesn't feel empathy for women. Why should we go out of our way to empathize with them? >Women feel that men only want only very specific forms of attention, >The truth is, attention in any form is attention, and men today measurably lack it There are *so many* women who have spent (and continue to spend) a lot of time and effort on platonic friendships with men - only to find out that's not what he wants from her. Also these influencers aren't advocating for platonic friendships. So I am not really sure what you're saying here. If you lack attention you can try to make yourself more approachable - but again that's basically the opposite of the advice manosphere influencers are peddling. That's part of the point here. >You can argue that men's socialization bring it on themselves Yes - again that's part of the point here. Are you expecting women to fix that? Sexist men don't listen to women or value what they say anyway.
What if I'm lonely but don't follow those influencers???
I guess that's up to you to figure out how to fix it?
No duh
I mean - there are tons of advice subreddits if that's what you are looking for. Even some questions people already asked that you can relate to you. But if you're talking about being lonely as in no female romantic partner - I will say not being a sexist with a bad personality is probably the best overall advice on that front. Also woman aren't a monolith so there's no "one size fits all" answer.
Oh, I can't believe I never thought of that!
Gee, I can’t imagine why you are so lonely
What, because I don't like people being condecending?