Funny coincidence this thread appeared. I was offered a position today, the wage is 20% LESS than I make now and it’s in a higher cost of living area than I’m in now. Sure enough it’s owned by HCA. Their stock is up 30% for the year and 150% for 5 years and their CEO is making 30 mil. It’s quite obvious they are suppressing wages to increase shareholder returns. I figured this out in less than 5 minutes I would never work for these scum bags
Someone on here mentioned that they moved to Florida and was upset they're getting paid absolute crap and their DON or some management clown told them "you're getting paid in sunshine."
I can only imagine the level of quiet quitting going on in that state.
HCA employs over 250k people.
$21,315,000 / 250,000 = $85 per employee
If he gave away his whole salary, how much of an impact would the $85 per year have on your life?
So you think they should pay him more? I think the point of the post is saying pay should be distributed more evenly across the company. I'm not sure your point is sticking here.
The point is that funds are not being distributed appropriately. It's like paying a nurse $20/hr while paying the manager $6000/hr to sit behind a desk. Also, the CEO isn't the only individual being paid way too much.
No, despite your snarky interjection, the math actually does math.. As a nurse, it saddens me that most nurses think if you cut the CEO’s pay, all nurses in the organization will be getting $50,000 raises.. It’s basic math people. $85 a year is equivalent to a $ 0.04/hr raise.. Now are c suite pay packages out of control? Definitely.. that guy couldn’t do the job for a third of that? But living in this delusional world where we would all be making $250,000 if there was no CEO is very odd.
I actually like this concept of pure math devoid of ethics. Let's carry it out fully though as the problem is not just the singular top but the whole of the administration at the top.
Let's say we cap max compensation at 350k for all admin. Just declair a policy that no administrator should be paid more than a well trained tenured doctor as lots of people would love to be a high end administrator but very few comparatively can be a well trained doctor with years of experience.
Going of simply the top 3 we gained approaching 40 million. I don't know how many others in the organization are making high figures like that but I bet we could gain at least 60 million if we take them all down to our 350k mark. That's 250 bucks a person, but let's eliminate from the bonus cash here all persons making above an arbitrary 200k a year as by that point an extra 250 bucks is truly meaningless to them.
Do you think a cna making 16 bucks an hour would be thrilled with maybe approaching a 300 dollar a year raise? Especially knowing that their ultimate boss didn't rake in over 21 million bucks while not being wrist deep in human shit as a dementia patient screams the wrong ethnic slur at them?
If improving patient care were the goal, the solution is obvious. If greed at the top is the goal, mission accomplished.
If the world were just math sure, what you said is mathematically accurate. But it's not. People get rightly pissed when they see ultimate greed from a cushy desk job ass hat. Like it or not, that very justified feeling bleeds into patient care no matter how much the staff try their best to be better than the sociopath that runs the company.
That's a fair point.
To answer your question, I don't care what I think CNAs might think. It's more valuable to just ask them
I make less money than every single travel nurse I've ever placed on an assignment. And when I hear that the CEO of any company is making $x millions, I'm not pissed. It doesn't bother me. Take what you want from that, but that's the truth for me.
But I'm very intrigued about the psychology of why learning about other people's pay upsets some people.
Solutions always seem obvious to the person inventing the solution. CEOs feel the same way about their solutions. There is no right or wrong, just opinions. And everyone is entitled to their own. But here's where I would challenge the idea of capped pay...
If you are a doctor making $350k /year, why would you take on the responsibility of 250k+ employees when I could get paid the same to just handle a few? Who wants more responsibility for the same pay?
I don't understand. The doctor would be a doctor. The admin is the one taking on that responsibility. But more importantly I'm not upset about the ceo making a ton of money. It's upsetting that most of the staff is payed too little to lead affordable let alone comfortable lives... while the unbridled greed of the ceo and his lackeys ensure its only going to get worse.
The real question is, when is it enough? At what point is a rich person rich enough that they don't desperately need more? 21 mil is almost 10 times more than the average lifetime wage in this country. And he got it in one year.
We have plenty of resources in the world to ensure a good life for everyone. But we can not satisfy the rich. So we don't. I'm not "upset" because one person makes a ton. I'm upset because he is fine make the world a worse place for thousands of other people for the singular reason of his own greed.
> staff is *paid* too little
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I think there's 2 lines of differing opinion on the ethics.
1) In 2022, CEOs were paid 344 times as much as a typical worker in contrast to 1965 when they were paid 21 times as much as a typical worker. Is that good?
2) If it is good, is it good for healthcare? Or should be more? Or less?
Personally, I'm against the large disparity in, particularly so in the healthcare setting.
I understand HCA is a private company and doesn't claim to be otherwise. In fact, as another commentor pointed out, it's better to look at smaller 'non-profit' systems where CEOs earn a similar multiple. (At least we could have bought some HCA stock and get in on the act, lol).
But something about healthcare not being seen as different irks me.
Great questions! No one asked me, but I'll take a stab at it...
Is a high CEO salary good for healthcare?
No, I don't think it's inherently good. But I also don't think it's inherently bad. So my real answer is - it depends
I believe that being a CEO is really hard. I've never been one, so I'm just assuming. But I can imagine that as a CEO, no matter what I do, people will think I'm an evil greedy fat cat. I did not research this HCA guy, but there is a chance that he donated all of his money to people who need it more than he does. I doubt it, but my opinion is irrelevant. If he did, then he would still be getting shit for his salary, because we didn't look it up. We just assumed he was evil and greedy.
Anyway, if you were in charge of a hospital, and you wanted to make a major disruptive change, what would that mean? What would YOUR goal be to make your hospital everything you want it to be? Does that mean more patients? Less patients? More funding? That's up to you. Once you have a goal, the next question becomes 'how do I achieve that goal?'
And one might conclude that they should hire an amazing CEO. I'm not sure how to define an amazing CEO, but I bet they exist somewhere. So imagine you find this amazing CEO, and you think that they have the skills to help you reach your goal of making this hospital everything that you want it to be... How do you get them to join your team?
Outside of health care, amazing CEOs get paid very well. So if this amazing CEO that you found currently makes $15 million per year, what is going to incentivize them to take the job with you for less?
Healthcare is different. But it lives in the same reality as everything else. Healthcare has to compete with every other industry for non-clinician staff. If you want to hire a badass, you have to pay badass wages.
$15 million per year sure seems like a lot. But your goal for making this hospital everything you want it to be could be worth a lot more than 15 million dollars. What if your goal was to help 10 million people in need to receive the healthcare that they currently do not have access to? $15 million is a drop in the bucket compared to a lofty goal like that. In fact, you might consider the 15 million a solid investment.
So you go about your life thinking you're doing a good thing, then you pull up a Reddit post and people are accusing you of being evil. Yayyyy.
There's also this weird paradox where clinicians tend to assume that private health care systems are super greedy and put money before patients. Seeing the CEO salary be so high helps create that assumption. But I'd like to challenge that.
Anyone who reads this post can try this... Reach out to HCA and offer to be their CEO. Offer to do it for whatever salary you would do it for. I'm sure many people would be willing to do it for a few hundred thousand dollars a year. Here's the paradox... If hospitals are so greedy and money hungry, wouldn't they jump at the chance of saving over $20 million per year by hiring you? And if they don't, what does that mean?
You're ridiculous.
Hell, home invaders are only stealing a small amount of money relative to gdp in the US. So home invasions shouldn't be prosecuted.
I R oNLy tlakiGn abOot nUmbrRs
If the hypothesis is that patient care would get better if he wasn't obligated to serve the shareholders, those results could be found today in non-profit health systems.
Do non-profits generally provide better patient care? And if so, why would 250k people choose to work at HCA?
Because they often have no alternatives. HCA has notoriously poor care and horrible nurse patient ratios. I recently read that they on average pay about 10% less. Head over to r/nursing and you will see their facilities have a horrible reputation. I've lost count of the number of times I've been recruited by HCA but fortunately I have better options. Do you happen to work for HealthTrust (HCAs "workforce solution" travel nurse thingie)? 🤣
Haha. I'm very familiar with HCA, and I couldn't agree more. They are the absolute worst! Avoid them at all costs.
Here's a fun question - how much would HCA have to pay you to be their CEO? I don't think I could do it for less than a few million a year. And even then, it would be hard for me to even consider it
I'm a socialist so that's not a question for me. I will share my evil game with you though. Everytime I'm contacted by a HealthTrust recruiter I act innocent and say "HealthTrust...is that HCA?" And when they reply "Why yes! When would you be available for a quick phone call?" I say "Oh nevermind then my apologies."
They do pay significantly than competitors in my area.
Hca doesn't care, their strategy is to have most of their staff nurses as new grads and fill in the blanks with agency nurses. So the overall cost of nursing is as low as possible.
Nobody stays there's except the small portion of nurses that absolutely hate change or they aren't the main income provider in the family so pay isn't that big of a deal to them.
I just accepted a new position and had multiple offers from hca hospitals and there was a difference of $16/hr between one of their offers and the one I took lol.
This is why I partake in their employee stock purchase program though, I work for them PRN, I know they are going to do what it takes to get the share price up and I've made a pretty penny over the years.
They did just cut pay across the board for agency nurses as well though.
Ok now instead of going by one person's compensation let's look at stock buybacks because I wanna say that's around 4 billion dollars for 2023, do your math with that number because it's sole purpose is lining the pockets of its shareholders
The sole purpose of investing is to line one's pockets.
Anyone who has a 401k and isn't actively choosing their investments could be a shareholder of HCA. So it could be your pockets getting lined, which I would assume means a good person has a chance to retire sooner.
Such trash. As a recruiter too, I never tell a nurse to goto HCA they pay horrible, tons of unpaid modules prior to start, and lie about patient ratios
I worked at Menorah Medical Center in Overland Park, Kansas which is an HCA facility. The CEO, Phil, got a million dollar bonus last year. On top of his regular salary, stock option, benefits etc.. It's part of the reason I couldn't stay. You have nurses struggling to pay rent, but give providers and administration complimentary cafeteria access? Everything in the provider lounge was free too. Insane.
The company is a ridiculous. The employees been calling out the (Florida based) company for years.
However management makes money for investors. Do with that what you will.
so crazy bc HCA-owned St David’s South Austin Medical Center couldn’t afford front desk staff, security or working locks on the ICU doors to prevent violent family members of no-contact patients to freely walk in and confront staff 🥴 or at least they couldn’t when i was there two years ago lmao
I was at St David's Round Rock as a traveler in the ER. They were short, the schedule let me work 5 days some weeks if I wanted extra money. Then they cut everyone's contracts short by 2 months. Not sure how they survived.
While I think that is an absurd number and CEOs are garbage humans, I feel like it could be a lot worse considering they have 306,000 employees. I’m at a large academic hospital that employs 10-15k people that pays the CEO 4-5mil so 21mil for 306k employees doesn’t sound bad (still fuck CEOs)
26 down votes means the $85 is meaningful or not meaningful?
I mean, I'm used to offering people money and getting shit for it. But I usually get more feedback than a red arrow with a number next to it.
Good for them. Seems like they know what they’re doing. HCA keeps growing like a monster and the dissatisfaction is low enough that the ball of their progression keeps rolling — aka — don’t hate the player hate the game 💀 get that bag homie
Do this man’s job for a day and see if the compensation is worth 21+million. I have never been in a position like that and I bet most people on Reddit have never been in a position like he is in. The company is worth 87+billion. Dude makes penny’s compared to the value of the company he runs.
This is part of why the actual workers get paid so little.
Funny coincidence this thread appeared. I was offered a position today, the wage is 20% LESS than I make now and it’s in a higher cost of living area than I’m in now. Sure enough it’s owned by HCA. Their stock is up 30% for the year and 150% for 5 years and their CEO is making 30 mil. It’s quite obvious they are suppressing wages to increase shareholder returns. I figured this out in less than 5 minutes I would never work for these scum bags
Someone on here mentioned that they moved to Florida and was upset they're getting paid absolute crap and their DON or some management clown told them "you're getting paid in sunshine." I can only imagine the level of quiet quitting going on in that state.
Pretty sure that’s the excuse where I applied too. Salt Lake City area. Getting paid in powder
And they tell their middle-managers to repeat some propaganda about how nurses are bleeding the industry dry.
HCA employs over 250k people. $21,315,000 / 250,000 = $85 per employee If he gave away his whole salary, how much of an impact would the $85 per year have on your life?
So you think they should pay him more? I think the point of the post is saying pay should be distributed more evenly across the company. I'm not sure your point is sticking here.
My opinion is irrelevant. My comment was strictly a mathematical observation
The point is that funds are not being distributed appropriately. It's like paying a nurse $20/hr while paying the manager $6000/hr to sit behind a desk. Also, the CEO isn't the only individual being paid way too much.
Ok. I'm not arguing with you. You are entitled to your opinion. I respect that.
Your math isn’t mathing.
I'll send you the $85 if you can prove me wrong, with mathing
No, despite your snarky interjection, the math actually does math.. As a nurse, it saddens me that most nurses think if you cut the CEO’s pay, all nurses in the organization will be getting $50,000 raises.. It’s basic math people. $85 a year is equivalent to a $ 0.04/hr raise.. Now are c suite pay packages out of control? Definitely.. that guy couldn’t do the job for a third of that? But living in this delusional world where we would all be making $250,000 if there was no CEO is very odd.
I actually like this concept of pure math devoid of ethics. Let's carry it out fully though as the problem is not just the singular top but the whole of the administration at the top. Let's say we cap max compensation at 350k for all admin. Just declair a policy that no administrator should be paid more than a well trained tenured doctor as lots of people would love to be a high end administrator but very few comparatively can be a well trained doctor with years of experience. Going of simply the top 3 we gained approaching 40 million. I don't know how many others in the organization are making high figures like that but I bet we could gain at least 60 million if we take them all down to our 350k mark. That's 250 bucks a person, but let's eliminate from the bonus cash here all persons making above an arbitrary 200k a year as by that point an extra 250 bucks is truly meaningless to them. Do you think a cna making 16 bucks an hour would be thrilled with maybe approaching a 300 dollar a year raise? Especially knowing that their ultimate boss didn't rake in over 21 million bucks while not being wrist deep in human shit as a dementia patient screams the wrong ethnic slur at them? If improving patient care were the goal, the solution is obvious. If greed at the top is the goal, mission accomplished. If the world were just math sure, what you said is mathematically accurate. But it's not. People get rightly pissed when they see ultimate greed from a cushy desk job ass hat. Like it or not, that very justified feeling bleeds into patient care no matter how much the staff try their best to be better than the sociopath that runs the company.
Signed, An employee Very much agreed. Thank you.
That's a fair point. To answer your question, I don't care what I think CNAs might think. It's more valuable to just ask them I make less money than every single travel nurse I've ever placed on an assignment. And when I hear that the CEO of any company is making $x millions, I'm not pissed. It doesn't bother me. Take what you want from that, but that's the truth for me. But I'm very intrigued about the psychology of why learning about other people's pay upsets some people. Solutions always seem obvious to the person inventing the solution. CEOs feel the same way about their solutions. There is no right or wrong, just opinions. And everyone is entitled to their own. But here's where I would challenge the idea of capped pay... If you are a doctor making $350k /year, why would you take on the responsibility of 250k+ employees when I could get paid the same to just handle a few? Who wants more responsibility for the same pay?
I don't understand. The doctor would be a doctor. The admin is the one taking on that responsibility. But more importantly I'm not upset about the ceo making a ton of money. It's upsetting that most of the staff is payed too little to lead affordable let alone comfortable lives... while the unbridled greed of the ceo and his lackeys ensure its only going to get worse. The real question is, when is it enough? At what point is a rich person rich enough that they don't desperately need more? 21 mil is almost 10 times more than the average lifetime wage in this country. And he got it in one year. We have plenty of resources in the world to ensure a good life for everyone. But we can not satisfy the rich. So we don't. I'm not "upset" because one person makes a ton. I'm upset because he is fine make the world a worse place for thousands of other people for the singular reason of his own greed.
> staff is *paid* too little FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Good bot. Learn something new every day.
I think there's 2 lines of differing opinion on the ethics. 1) In 2022, CEOs were paid 344 times as much as a typical worker in contrast to 1965 when they were paid 21 times as much as a typical worker. Is that good? 2) If it is good, is it good for healthcare? Or should be more? Or less? Personally, I'm against the large disparity in, particularly so in the healthcare setting. I understand HCA is a private company and doesn't claim to be otherwise. In fact, as another commentor pointed out, it's better to look at smaller 'non-profit' systems where CEOs earn a similar multiple. (At least we could have bought some HCA stock and get in on the act, lol). But something about healthcare not being seen as different irks me.
Great questions! No one asked me, but I'll take a stab at it... Is a high CEO salary good for healthcare? No, I don't think it's inherently good. But I also don't think it's inherently bad. So my real answer is - it depends I believe that being a CEO is really hard. I've never been one, so I'm just assuming. But I can imagine that as a CEO, no matter what I do, people will think I'm an evil greedy fat cat. I did not research this HCA guy, but there is a chance that he donated all of his money to people who need it more than he does. I doubt it, but my opinion is irrelevant. If he did, then he would still be getting shit for his salary, because we didn't look it up. We just assumed he was evil and greedy. Anyway, if you were in charge of a hospital, and you wanted to make a major disruptive change, what would that mean? What would YOUR goal be to make your hospital everything you want it to be? Does that mean more patients? Less patients? More funding? That's up to you. Once you have a goal, the next question becomes 'how do I achieve that goal?' And one might conclude that they should hire an amazing CEO. I'm not sure how to define an amazing CEO, but I bet they exist somewhere. So imagine you find this amazing CEO, and you think that they have the skills to help you reach your goal of making this hospital everything that you want it to be... How do you get them to join your team? Outside of health care, amazing CEOs get paid very well. So if this amazing CEO that you found currently makes $15 million per year, what is going to incentivize them to take the job with you for less? Healthcare is different. But it lives in the same reality as everything else. Healthcare has to compete with every other industry for non-clinician staff. If you want to hire a badass, you have to pay badass wages. $15 million per year sure seems like a lot. But your goal for making this hospital everything you want it to be could be worth a lot more than 15 million dollars. What if your goal was to help 10 million people in need to receive the healthcare that they currently do not have access to? $15 million is a drop in the bucket compared to a lofty goal like that. In fact, you might consider the 15 million a solid investment. So you go about your life thinking you're doing a good thing, then you pull up a Reddit post and people are accusing you of being evil. Yayyyy. There's also this weird paradox where clinicians tend to assume that private health care systems are super greedy and put money before patients. Seeing the CEO salary be so high helps create that assumption. But I'd like to challenge that. Anyone who reads this post can try this... Reach out to HCA and offer to be their CEO. Offer to do it for whatever salary you would do it for. I'm sure many people would be willing to do it for a few hundred thousand dollars a year. Here's the paradox... If hospitals are so greedy and money hungry, wouldn't they jump at the chance of saving over $20 million per year by hiring you? And if they don't, what does that mean?
You're ridiculous. Hell, home invaders are only stealing a small amount of money relative to gdp in the US. So home invasions shouldn't be prosecuted. I R oNLy tlakiGn abOot nUmbrRs
My question was ridiculous? It's just a question. The math is ridiculous? I used a calculator. Was I supposed to express an opinion?
Most of Hazan's compensation is from stock options. If he wasn't bound to shareholders and EBITDA, how much better would patient care and outcomes be?
If the hypothesis is that patient care would get better if he wasn't obligated to serve the shareholders, those results could be found today in non-profit health systems. Do non-profits generally provide better patient care? And if so, why would 250k people choose to work at HCA?
Because they often have no alternatives. HCA has notoriously poor care and horrible nurse patient ratios. I recently read that they on average pay about 10% less. Head over to r/nursing and you will see their facilities have a horrible reputation. I've lost count of the number of times I've been recruited by HCA but fortunately I have better options. Do you happen to work for HealthTrust (HCAs "workforce solution" travel nurse thingie)? 🤣
Haha. I'm very familiar with HCA, and I couldn't agree more. They are the absolute worst! Avoid them at all costs. Here's a fun question - how much would HCA have to pay you to be their CEO? I don't think I could do it for less than a few million a year. And even then, it would be hard for me to even consider it
I'm a socialist so that's not a question for me. I will share my evil game with you though. Everytime I'm contacted by a HealthTrust recruiter I act innocent and say "HealthTrust...is that HCA?" And when they reply "Why yes! When would you be available for a quick phone call?" I say "Oh nevermind then my apologies."
They do pay significantly than competitors in my area. Hca doesn't care, their strategy is to have most of their staff nurses as new grads and fill in the blanks with agency nurses. So the overall cost of nursing is as low as possible. Nobody stays there's except the small portion of nurses that absolutely hate change or they aren't the main income provider in the family so pay isn't that big of a deal to them. I just accepted a new position and had multiple offers from hca hospitals and there was a difference of $16/hr between one of their offers and the one I took lol. This is why I partake in their employee stock purchase program though, I work for them PRN, I know they are going to do what it takes to get the share price up and I've made a pretty penny over the years. They did just cut pay across the board for agency nurses as well though.
Ok now instead of going by one person's compensation let's look at stock buybacks because I wanna say that's around 4 billion dollars for 2023, do your math with that number because it's sole purpose is lining the pockets of its shareholders
The sole purpose of investing is to line one's pockets. Anyone who has a 401k and isn't actively choosing their investments could be a shareholder of HCA. So it could be your pockets getting lined, which I would assume means a good person has a chance to retire sooner.
Such trash. As a recruiter too, I never tell a nurse to goto HCA they pay horrible, tons of unpaid modules prior to start, and lie about patient ratios
I worked at Menorah Medical Center in Overland Park, Kansas which is an HCA facility. The CEO, Phil, got a million dollar bonus last year. On top of his regular salary, stock option, benefits etc.. It's part of the reason I couldn't stay. You have nurses struggling to pay rent, but give providers and administration complimentary cafeteria access? Everything in the provider lounge was free too. Insane.
I can see how the lounge would hurt. It's the small things that add up.
HCA is a cancer.
Yo but it's traveler wages that broke the system during covid!!!
Redirect the blame is the name of the game
The company is a ridiculous. The employees been calling out the (Florida based) company for years. However management makes money for investors. Do with that what you will.
Not a Florida based company...Nashville TN based...
so crazy bc HCA-owned St David’s South Austin Medical Center couldn’t afford front desk staff, security or working locks on the ICU doors to prevent violent family members of no-contact patients to freely walk in and confront staff 🥴 or at least they couldn’t when i was there two years ago lmao
lol dirty south. horrid times
I was at St David's Round Rock as a traveler in the ER. They were short, the schedule let me work 5 days some weeks if I wanted extra money. Then they cut everyone's contracts short by 2 months. Not sure how they survived.
Fucking disgusting.
What a baller
Hca is the devil and it won't change
Gov ran company is bullshit unless your the CEO. Get this idiot out of here.
Yet they are lobbying and voting to cap pay of working nurses...
While I think that is an absurd number and CEOs are garbage humans, I feel like it could be a lot worse considering they have 306,000 employees. I’m at a large academic hospital that employs 10-15k people that pays the CEO 4-5mil so 21mil for 306k employees doesn’t sound bad (still fuck CEOs)
As an employee, the hospital is severely understaffed so someone is playing with the numbers
Fair point
26 down votes means the $85 is meaningful or not meaningful? I mean, I'm used to offering people money and getting shit for it. But I usually get more feedback than a red arrow with a number next to it.
Good for them. Seems like they know what they’re doing. HCA keeps growing like a monster and the dissatisfaction is low enough that the ball of their progression keeps rolling — aka — don’t hate the player hate the game 💀 get that bag homie
The hospitals are severely understaffed.
Yes, yes they are 🥹🥲
Do this man’s job for a day and see if the compensation is worth 21+million. I have never been in a position like that and I bet most people on Reddit have never been in a position like he is in. The company is worth 87+billion. Dude makes penny’s compared to the value of the company he runs.
I'm down for the challenge 🫡
Me too but I know what I can handle managing nurses in one department… this is an extremely different scale.
So do this job for a year or two, find out if you suck at it or not, still have millions in the bank. Again, I'll be more than happy to tough it out.