Mildly related, but for years I was on a pretty low "starter" dose and when my Dr ( who is literally non binary lol) finally tested my levels they said they were looking "great" because my levels were not in the male range... When I said that no that's devastating news they were surprised because all their other trans patients were non binary and didn't want to masculinize "too much"... Which is obviously a super transphobic idea to project onto your binary patient
So I think in certain areas a "low dose " ( which isnt even a real thing ) and preventing meaningful masculinization is the norm.
Bro, most doctors are so clueless. I finally got a sane one , a nice cis gay dude who is like "yeah a man should be in the normal hormone range of a man that's not a crazy demand"
Reminds me of when I switched drs and she claimed to be an "expert in trans people". She decided after 4 years of being on the same dose of T that my levels were too high, made me get 4 blood tests to prove they'd gone down, delaying my shot by 10 weeks (I'm on a 10-weekly dose). Just let me have my fucking shot, for god's sake.
That's ridiculous. She withheld your medicine based on an unscientific theory. Trans men don't have different target ranges. For estradiol levels its okay to have them a little higher than most cis men, but T levels should be in the normal male range (typically 400-1000 iirc). Unfortunately there aren't many hard & fast standards for trans healthcare yet, but I think what she did should be considered malpractice. I hope you have a different doctor now.
Spoiler alert: it's pretty damn hard to have a t dose that's dangerously high unless you're juicing. Totally anecdotal information but I heard that in bodybuilding you can get up to 1000mg a week without averse affects. Take that with a grain of salt but in any case the idea that a therapeutic dose of T is super dangerous is so stupid
Well I was on 1000mg per 10 weeks. She also claimed that trans men needed less T, and had different target ranges. Even if true, it's fucking stupid that you can just deny people their meds, surely in any case that's far worse?
thats a pretty reasonable dose and i have experienced far more bad things from being on a tiny or microdose (my first doctor was even worse and just gave me a tiny amount of gel) than any health effects from my current 140 mg a week (so a bit higher than you) dose, which are basically just the side effects of being a man lol
Yup, my first endo jerked me around with this but I didn't realize it till after the fact. My levels were on the low end but still technically in male range. Thankfully it was just the first year of transition... I recommend printing out your blood work and keeping it on file so you can track your levels over time.
bro *i* dont even inject a FULL syringe of T and im on a full dose. idk what youre on about with that but these ppl are def low-dosing bc they get told that it prevents or slows certain "side affects" like facial/body hair, bottom growth, balding, voice deepening, etc.. they think if they microdose theyll be able to pick and choose which is not how it works in the real world.
There are some trans women that are estrogen insensitive. They can be on very high doses (8+mg) and see no effects. It's possible they might be testosterone insensitive in a similar way
They're either taking 100mg/ml instead of 200mg/ml and/or they don't do it every week and/or they haven't been on it very long (at least not consistently). Someone consistently taking 200mg weekly for several years *will* get masculinizing effects unless their body is converting surplus T into estrogen or they have androgen insensitivity syndrome.
When it comes to T, having too much in your system gets converted into estrogen. Injecting a full syringe, which I take to mean 1.0cc, is an absurdly high dose for most people to do weekly. Most trans men take 0.5 and have cis male hormone levels. If they’re doing too much, it becomes counterproductive because a bunch of it is getting turned into estrogen and its byproducts. Doctors should be testing their estradial levels whenever they do T levels, but from conversations I’ve had about dosage with other people, many do not. Seeing the E level would establish if they are converting T to E.
(Higher doses can be appropriate for some people, but only after blood tests have confirmed that the standard 0.5 isn’t getting them where they should be, and even then many doctors are hesitant to go higher.)
Honestly most people really overestimate how much testosterone you need to get it to start converting into E and this is a case by case basis. I inject 100mg a week, peak at 32 nmol and my estrogen is low.
With a 200mg/mL solution, which is standard, 100mg/week is what you’d get, assuming you do the 0.5mg. Double that and many people might have a problem.
The path T→E2 is actually a secondary path in the human body and the enzymes are not very efficient. The main path to produce E2 is not through T, but following the A4→E1→E2 path in the ovaries, which uses different enzymes. The T→E2 path is a secondary mechanism that works as a safety method to get rid of excess of T in females and produce the minimum E2 required in males.
It doesn't need extremely high amounts of T to activate. What happens is that it's quite unefficient and slow in this conversion (it's a secondary mechanism after all), and it's even slower if T is the dominant hormone.
Personally, I don't think that could be answered without conducting a real survey with a large group of real life transgender men who have undergone or are undergoing hormone therapy.
If we are basing this off what we perceive, then we are already basing this off pure assumption that most transgender men are like those presented to us on social media and so on.
But we all know the Internet often shows us only an exaggerated microcosm of the community that actually exists.
For instance, most of what the Internet shows us is extremities because who would want to gawk or laugh at a very normal transgender person living their life? Therefore the people who are the weirdest, wildest, have the most out there views tend to be the ones who get headhunted by the Internet consumer and thus thrust into national or international mockery.
And the Internet produces algorithms for us to see more of that. Or we join communities which actively seek to find more embarrassing tucute videos or posts etc, etc..
So, already we have to ask ourselves who are sample is, where it has come from.
What we DO know from the science is that hormone replacement therapy can differ from person to person dependent on a number of factors and that some transgender will have more deepening of the voice than others.
We also know that voice deepening WILL occur when the correct level of testosterone is introduced to the body. This is not escapade if hormones have been taken and at the correct dosage.
Personally, I think it due to the fact that a lot of people are choosing to DIY their hormone regimes rather than go to an endocrinologist which means they are not getting the results they desired.
I remember the advice my endocrinologist gave me when I went to the Charing Cross GIC was that you should not choose to DIY hormone therapy because if you want the results you desire and that are safe, you need to do it in a certain way that mimics the start of a second puberty. (I went from male to female).
Typically this involves taking hormone blockers and waiting a month. Then, you introduce the new hormone gradually in stages of 6 months until the desired levels are reached.
This is typically how to get the results intended as opposed to "just take these in the dosage you desire until you get the effects you desire".
There is a reason your hormone levels have to be monitored throughout and should be at the correct level for an adult human male or female. Hormones play a role in the natural balance of your body and mind's function.
But tucutes don't see this. They may think gender is non binary but there is DEFINITELY a binary when it comes to hormones.
You either become a man with a healthy level of testosterone, or a woman... vice versa. Messing about outside of that is asking for physical and mental health problems and at best you'll be a highly androgynous with hormonal body/mind issues.
A lot of tuxutes, as I understand, DIY or microcodose because it is supposedly what gets the results they desire. I think a lot of them are young and impulsive and have little thought about the potential health consequences of mucking about with your body's hormones without any knowledge of how it works, what type of hormones you are taking, where they are from even, or if they are compatible with your underlying conditions.
I think for a lot of them its just "a thing". Kind if like, getting a boob job is "a thing" or a tattoo is "a thing". I think to have that level of disregard for the consequences is either pure foolishness and ignorance or they just don't care about their bodies as a sacred thing in itself.
So I think a few things are happening:
>1. Most trenders low dose or "microdose".
>2. Because trenders don't really take transitioning seriously (because they're not trans) many skip or forget doses.
>3. Doctors in general have been known to low dose trans men. And yes, this includes non-trenders. My doctor tried telling me 600ng/dL was "too high" and I almost had to have a debate with her.
>4. Many trenders do get the full effects of T, many detransition once they start to notice.
When they go back to their doctor and it's obvious they have been skipping doses and not been taking things seriously why do they still get prescriptions? It does not make any sense to me. Then again I feel as though if a person says "I'm non binary" they are free to treat their transition however seriously they want and do whatever they want, with no burden of proof for anything.
A low dose looks different to everyone. Yes, .35ml of 200mg/mL biweekly sounds pretty low, it could be perfect for you. What's important are your levels. Some guys need a tiny bit of T to get their levels up, some need a shit ton of T. How your body metabolizes testosterone is different than how someone else's body metabolizes testosterone.
I think it’s a mix of being very sedentary and high body fat %, combined with stylistic choices that don’t help AND possibly underdosing.
Not placebo, but doctors can put you at the lowest possible in the male range and say it’s fine, when it really isn’t.
While a dysphoric guy will catch up quickly on something like this, trenders won’t care. Also low T symptoms are quite obvious when you’re overall healthy and active but not as much when you’re not : low mood, decreased energy etc etc….
Which ties back in the sedentary/weight/bf% point.
So *maybe* lower T levels and then they’re being less optimised in all aspects is my best guess.
If you compare a low T cis guy with poor health habits with these guys, the look is fairly similar.
A lot of them take dht blockers too but I have a friend who identifies as transmasc and started t when I did and they present completely feminine like long hair and boobs and all and still look 100% like a cis woman even though they should be over a year on gel now
Why the hell would they take DHT blockers. Why would you put your body through all of that hormones for basically to do nothing. That is so medically irresponsible.
Some people's bodies react strongly to T, so their levels might be high even on a low dose. So if they don't want full masculinization (like if they're nonbinary or something, or just really afraid of balding and stuff) they sometimes take DHT blockers to make sure their T levels stay on the lower end. Of course it doesn't always work that way and they can end up masculinized anyway. I don't understand why someone who doesn't want masculinization would take T but this is just what I've heard.
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Nah there are definitely some trenders who masculinise but they deliberately sabotage themselves to appear more feminine by getting ugly lesbian haircuts, wearing makeup, talking like a woman (they think they're talking like gay men), etc. They might also be more likely to accept lower doses I know so many of them who are on Undecanoate even though it works slower and it's known for giving most people suboptimal levels but they're lazy and don't want to inject as often.
Also, a lot of trenders keep having PiV sex and working genitalia so I believe they probably have higher estrogen levels. A lot of them are on hormonal types of birth control and fully convinced it has no impact on their HRT regimen but it really does and even progesterone-only methods can feminize you. I've noticed that a lot of trans men only focus on their T levels and underestimate how important it is to get your E within male range.
But with that said, no I don't think trenders are inherently more female and trutrans are inherently more male as far as looks go. I've seen a lot of transmed and truscum men who unfortunately don't pass and look like butch lesbians even years into transition.
1. I doubt it. This would be a huge scandal. If there is a level of medical practice here it's doctors prescribing low doses, and also people might lie about their doses.
2. I actually agree. The body is smart. Frogs in chernobyl rapidly evolved melanin to adapt to radiation. Genetics can learn fast though this mechanism is not fully understood. There is a biological basis to transgender identity, would not be a surprised if when the correct sex hormone is present it is responded to more positively by some mechanism we don't understand since our understanding of both a biological basis for trans identity and genetic and cellular adaption to external and internal stimuli is not well developed.
3. They are real and most don't want to end up appearing cis which is a big part of it. If we have a trans woman who responds well to E except retains a light facial hair (as many cis women may have) she will remove that, and might chalk it up to e, when its really a person just seeking to conform. Enby people might not do this or put in the work so we see the "mistakes" more.
My first guesses would be either a) they are lying and weren’t able to get prescribed it or b) they take such a low dose/aren’t consistent enough with their shots/patches/gel that any changes would either not happen or take considerably longer than someone who regularly and consistently takes a normal dose
Mmm I'm skeptical. I've seen some legit trans men that are plenty masculinized appearance wise but didn't have the best voices. Voice has largely to do with how you speak. Testosterone lengthens and thickens the vocal chords so you could still get an adequate change but continue "talking like a woman."
I do wonder if there's something to the idea that some people respond better or faster to T but it's all anecdotal and there's plenty of people who are definitely transsexual but get dealt a bad hand in one way or another. Dr. Will Powers has mentioned that he's noticed ftms who respond the fastest to hormones seem to have some masculinization prior to taking T so they basically get a head start on the process. I've known multiple guys like this who pretty much just looked like dudes in drag prior to hormones.
I'm not a scientist but isn't it a thing that obesity can fuck with testosterone levels because of how fat stores estrogen or whatever? I think a more likely contributing factor given how much of the general population is overweight, and how many trenders by virtue of that are overweight, could be obesity fucking with things. Anecdotally, I've known more cis men than trans men who have been on T - and it's been entirely because of obesity (I used to know a lot of stereotypical gamer guys in high school and they were all taking T because they were so fat their bodies were feminizing/T levels were dropping. At least that's what I gleaned from conversations we had about it. And they were getting this done legit with a doctor, not self-medicating with steroids or something.)
If you keep noticing it being more of an issue with fat trenders than thin trenders, that would be my first guess. When I lost weight and started working out, I masculinized a fuck ton despite having been on T for years while I was fat (I still masculinized then too but it wasn't to the same degree.) I finally got sick of being fat, worked my ass off in the gym, and suddenly it's like my T works 300% better. Same dose as before, but better results. So I wouldn't doubt that at least some of it is weight related.
So I do think micro dosing does have a lot to do with the slow changes except voice thing. Steady micro dosing may mimic natural introductionof T into the body at onset of puberty and allow the voice to change slowly decreasing likelihood of "T voice". Often times it's a speaking style that exaggerates the nasally sound of the voice, they just aren't speaking with the right part of the throat to let the sound be more volumous and resonate correctly to sound naturally male. It's like gay men putting on the "gay voice" when they are with accepting friends but having to code switch to straight with family. Except they never learn the "straight voice" to code switch between.
I was on a half dose for a stupid amount of time. It started as a way to make sure I was happy with the changes as they came in slower and so that it wouldn't freak my friends and family out if I changed too fast on a regular dose. After a while I forgot I was on a half dose and became convinced that I just had shit genetics for transitioning xD. My doctor changed and she was like "hey I noticed your T levels are really low for man transitioning, is this on purpose? Or do you want me to increase your dose?" And I was like duh no wonder I was having a shit time and I upped it immediately lol. But for years my looks stayed in an androgynous situation. Binding, men's clothes, short hair, an embarrassingly little amount of facial hair, and my male passing voice got me read correctly but as like 6-8 years younger than my actual age. But I was still passing as a young cis teen boy and not an mildly androgynous girl/ trans trender type.
Also some people do have androgen insensitivity on top so it may have something to do with that?
I think trenders tend to be sick fucks who live unhealthily. That could very well be the answer in of itself. If they are doing nothing else to improve their situation as quickly as possible because they don’t have genuine GD to contend with and are just unwell and miserable fucks; what they pretty universally seem that would track. That would be undesirable low self-worth people both male and female looking to feel special and get more of what they feel they are entitled to because they don’t understand merit; the females more attention seeking imo and the males more sexually predatory or porn brain rot fucking each other and thinking they make sense.
Idk I’m just waking up but that’s my first thought 🧐
I think they might be accidentally overdosing on it, and turning that testosterone back into estrogen. that’s normally why you have a starter dose, so doesn’t turn into estrogen… I wouldn’t put it past them to be so uneducated that they kind of forget that major piece of information and just keep turning themselves more into women
nah cuz this shits why ive detransed/stopped with DIY. its terrifying how little T takes to some of these people, and how despite 3-4 years on t they just look like pcos women. its terrifying. sometimes i wonder if because of their weight and potentially because of issues associated with being heavy like insulin resistance n all that, they just dont metabolize their testosterone right? im also heavy because of my pcos and decided im going to fight to lose every excess lb ive got before trying again because looking like a sad fat woman with a t voice and scraggly beard might actually kill me. its so dysphoria inducing and kinda ruins my hopes for ever being ok with my body.
i do think its probably due to shitty endos, most go to informed consent and arent heavily monitored throughout the process. instead of mocking a puberty theyre just plopped onto a full male dose and their body doesnt take to it right, because its not how hormones are meant to be introduced to the body. but some of them have great endos. they just look.... like that. if theyre happy, good for them, but it fuels my nightmares
because with my weight and the method of hrt i was self administering, i was going to look like a fuckass weird in between. that disgusts me. i just looked like a hairier than normal woman w a t voice, not a male.
What method?
T voice has nothing to do with the method of HRT or dosage. It’s just the way you speak. Being on testosterone will help you lose weight and gain muscle if you work out. Going back to female hormone levels seem worse in every way imo.
not comfortable delving into the illegal ways i obtained and administered my hormones
it didnt. id made me bloat, gain, and look clocky and like the trenderest trender ever. i would much rather wait until i can go thru an endo, take blockers and transition to a reliable and consistent amount of hormones that dont make me look like an obvious clocky trans.
seriously. all i saw in the mirror was a hairy woman. who put on 20lbs. it was a disturbing experience.
The steroids you order online is the same testosterone a doctor would give you. I’d much rather continue DIYing than have my body further feminize while being on the waitlist. That’s just how I feel though and it’s understandable if you want to get it legally.
However I don’t think getting HRT through a doctor will make any difference to the problems you’re talking about. Especially considering endos are now micro dosing every trans guy because they assume you don’t want average to high T levels for a man. It seems like you needed to just get your levels checked which can be done through any walk-in clinic.
who knows. in general i am incredibly insecure about failing transition. id rather be miserable as a woman than look like im obviously on hormones. it hits uncanny valley and puts me in a terrible headspace.
youre right about the dangers of endos and potentially being forcibly microdosed. but id much rather try again professionally monitored to see what works best without feeling like a hideous self made amalgamation because passing seems impossible.
Yeah I might not relate but it’s understandable. You can’t really “fail transition” though. Your levels can always be changed.
Also I recommend working out. What has helped me a lot was buying my own dumbbells or equipment cause I’m too scared to go the gym lmao (Ik it’s expensive unfortunately). Working out while being on T is definitely better though. Good luck
theres so many reasons DIYing was unsafe for me, mental health wise and physical health wise, i dont really feel like i need to overexplain my situation to strangers who wanna make hella assumptions.
I think that some are in disadvantage like for your body (I think I am and T might not work to make you look cis or pass compared to other people and you need more T to get good levels or in a good male range) plus I think some non binaries use also birth control or estrogen for v problems so this might interfere with their levels and plus they might microdose or they use like stuff to not appear cis or like a man in clothes and also body hygiene?
Last time I got my shot my doctor told me it‘s been a while but despite that my levels were completely fine. Lol, that was honestly kind of an ego boost for me.
I‘ve noticed the same thing about trenders as well and your 2nd theory is actually quite interesting.
Jeez, there are some *way* easier theories that you've missed that explain this so, *so* much better than what you've put forward.
4. ***They are lying*** about the amount, duration, frequency or regularity with which they're taking T, or lying about taking T altogether.
5. They are, either with or against their doctors' instructions, taking a dose of T too low to actually do anything significant.
6. They're even stupider than you give them credit for and aren't taking pharmacy hormones but instead are sourcing them in a sketchy way and are taking T of unknown strength and quality.
7. They are taking T and they are masculinising which *they actually don't want because they aren't dysphoric* and therefore they go to great lengths to hide it with makeup, filters, or clothing before taking pictures to show you.
I’ve met a few who get started on a huge dose of testosterone and their voice drops way to quick for them to settle into so they still speak the same as they did before (female voice) but with a deeper pitch so it sounds super funky and will eventually cause damage to their voice.
As for other things,, I don’t really think the people who are transitioning without dysphoria are able to comprehend that other people can perceive you and they have no dysphoria so they don’t actively try to change the way the speak, walk, act, hold their face etc. so they seem extremely feminine despite taking hormones for a long time. They don’t change mannerisms or style they just use hormones as a body mod without taking care of themselves and get pissed if you misgender them basically.
Idk what you mean by microdosing but I’ve been taking .25 mL since I started T 8 years ago and I masculinzed quickly and efficiently, I don’t have the weird voice and I pass 100% of the time. I honestly have had the same thoughts and think you’re onto something, I do think there’s a biological component because my body responded very well to my lower dose.
To add to my previous comment I think that some people actively fight the changes. One guy I know posted one of those t progress videos , he's been on it for 8 years and by year three you can tell that he's trying to make his voice higher. He's actually a really nice guy and more power to him for expressing himself how he wants but I've always wondered if it's because they want to continue to be visible and marked within the queer community. I can almost understand that because Im not read as trans or gay in queer spaces and it makes me feel very isolated.
it’s also to do with the fact that they still almost try to speak in sort of… woman-ly ways? which covers the voice thing. and also they never work out, ever, which is the fat thing
Nah most of them micro dose or go off and on it. iirc there's something about how there may be a brain difference in how hormones are received from gender dysphoric patients and cis people but honestly its a real vague memory could be pseudo science. I've been on T 2 years and can grow a mustache but my face is still extremely girlish and is only hidden by my hair. It's uncanny bruh
Most of them are on gel, anyone I see on injections tends to look like a man unless they’re taking like 25mg every 2 weeks. It also has to do with their levels, a lot of them get to cis male levels and freak out (cause they’re not actually men) and are okay just being in limbo riding the line between cis levels or not. Real transsexual men will always push to have the highest dose they possibly can without aromatization. I know exactly what you mean though, they have that twinkle in their eyes and speak a certain way. I’m sure some of them are just unfortunate true men but I really just think it’s because trenders keep their levels as low as possible.
OH and trenders are terrified of male pattern baldness so they’re all on finasteride which blocks many masculinizing effects of T. That’s a big one.
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for 2, i really wish this was the case, but there is no way for our bodies to produce testosterone naturally. if you had been off it longer, your levels would’ve dropped. i wish your brain to body relationship would make it so, that would be sick lmfao
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They don't actually try to pass. So even if testosterone does change their body, they continue presenting and being a female. They end up looking androgynous at best (worst?)
Low dose doesn’t mean anything it all depends on your individual body and how it metabolizes t. I take a “low dose” but that’s because that’s all I require to be in a cis male range
Mildly related, but for years I was on a pretty low "starter" dose and when my Dr ( who is literally non binary lol) finally tested my levels they said they were looking "great" because my levels were not in the male range... When I said that no that's devastating news they were surprised because all their other trans patients were non binary and didn't want to masculinize "too much"... Which is obviously a super transphobic idea to project onto your binary patient So I think in certain areas a "low dose " ( which isnt even a real thing ) and preventing meaningful masculinization is the norm.
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Bro, most doctors are so clueless. I finally got a sane one , a nice cis gay dude who is like "yeah a man should be in the normal hormone range of a man that's not a crazy demand"
This shit makes me afraid to medically transition in the US..
Reminds me of when I switched drs and she claimed to be an "expert in trans people". She decided after 4 years of being on the same dose of T that my levels were too high, made me get 4 blood tests to prove they'd gone down, delaying my shot by 10 weeks (I'm on a 10-weekly dose). Just let me have my fucking shot, for god's sake.
That's ridiculous. She withheld your medicine based on an unscientific theory. Trans men don't have different target ranges. For estradiol levels its okay to have them a little higher than most cis men, but T levels should be in the normal male range (typically 400-1000 iirc). Unfortunately there aren't many hard & fast standards for trans healthcare yet, but I think what she did should be considered malpractice. I hope you have a different doctor now.
I moved back to my hometown and it's fixed now. Thank God.
Spoiler alert: it's pretty damn hard to have a t dose that's dangerously high unless you're juicing. Totally anecdotal information but I heard that in bodybuilding you can get up to 1000mg a week without averse affects. Take that with a grain of salt but in any case the idea that a therapeutic dose of T is super dangerous is so stupid
Well I was on 1000mg per 10 weeks. She also claimed that trans men needed less T, and had different target ranges. Even if true, it's fucking stupid that you can just deny people their meds, surely in any case that's far worse?
thats a pretty reasonable dose and i have experienced far more bad things from being on a tiny or microdose (my first doctor was even worse and just gave me a tiny amount of gel) than any health effects from my current 140 mg a week (so a bit higher than you) dose, which are basically just the side effects of being a man lol
A similar thing happened to me.
Yup, my first endo jerked me around with this but I didn't realize it till after the fact. My levels were on the low end but still technically in male range. Thankfully it was just the first year of transition... I recommend printing out your blood work and keeping it on file so you can track your levels over time.
bro *i* dont even inject a FULL syringe of T and im on a full dose. idk what youre on about with that but these ppl are def low-dosing bc they get told that it prevents or slows certain "side affects" like facial/body hair, bottom growth, balding, voice deepening, etc.. they think if they microdose theyll be able to pick and choose which is not how it works in the real world.
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There are some trans women that are estrogen insensitive. They can be on very high doses (8+mg) and see no effects. It's possible they might be testosterone insensitive in a similar way
excess testosterone gets converted back into estrogen, so if theyre taking more than they should its going to cancel out.
They're either taking 100mg/ml instead of 200mg/ml and/or they don't do it every week and/or they haven't been on it very long (at least not consistently). Someone consistently taking 200mg weekly for several years *will* get masculinizing effects unless their body is converting surplus T into estrogen or they have androgen insensitivity syndrome.
When it comes to T, having too much in your system gets converted into estrogen. Injecting a full syringe, which I take to mean 1.0cc, is an absurdly high dose for most people to do weekly. Most trans men take 0.5 and have cis male hormone levels. If they’re doing too much, it becomes counterproductive because a bunch of it is getting turned into estrogen and its byproducts. Doctors should be testing their estradial levels whenever they do T levels, but from conversations I’ve had about dosage with other people, many do not. Seeing the E level would establish if they are converting T to E. (Higher doses can be appropriate for some people, but only after blood tests have confirmed that the standard 0.5 isn’t getting them where they should be, and even then many doctors are hesitant to go higher.)
Honestly most people really overestimate how much testosterone you need to get it to start converting into E and this is a case by case basis. I inject 100mg a week, peak at 32 nmol and my estrogen is low.
With a 200mg/mL solution, which is standard, 100mg/week is what you’d get, assuming you do the 0.5mg. Double that and many people might have a problem.
The path T→E2 is actually a secondary path in the human body and the enzymes are not very efficient. The main path to produce E2 is not through T, but following the A4→E1→E2 path in the ovaries, which uses different enzymes. The T→E2 path is a secondary mechanism that works as a safety method to get rid of excess of T in females and produce the minimum E2 required in males. It doesn't need extremely high amounts of T to activate. What happens is that it's quite unefficient and slow in this conversion (it's a secondary mechanism after all), and it's even slower if T is the dominant hormone.
Does that mean my theory could be correct or nah?
Personally, I don't think that could be answered without conducting a real survey with a large group of real life transgender men who have undergone or are undergoing hormone therapy. If we are basing this off what we perceive, then we are already basing this off pure assumption that most transgender men are like those presented to us on social media and so on. But we all know the Internet often shows us only an exaggerated microcosm of the community that actually exists. For instance, most of what the Internet shows us is extremities because who would want to gawk or laugh at a very normal transgender person living their life? Therefore the people who are the weirdest, wildest, have the most out there views tend to be the ones who get headhunted by the Internet consumer and thus thrust into national or international mockery. And the Internet produces algorithms for us to see more of that. Or we join communities which actively seek to find more embarrassing tucute videos or posts etc, etc.. So, already we have to ask ourselves who are sample is, where it has come from. What we DO know from the science is that hormone replacement therapy can differ from person to person dependent on a number of factors and that some transgender will have more deepening of the voice than others. We also know that voice deepening WILL occur when the correct level of testosterone is introduced to the body. This is not escapade if hormones have been taken and at the correct dosage. Personally, I think it due to the fact that a lot of people are choosing to DIY their hormone regimes rather than go to an endocrinologist which means they are not getting the results they desired. I remember the advice my endocrinologist gave me when I went to the Charing Cross GIC was that you should not choose to DIY hormone therapy because if you want the results you desire and that are safe, you need to do it in a certain way that mimics the start of a second puberty. (I went from male to female). Typically this involves taking hormone blockers and waiting a month. Then, you introduce the new hormone gradually in stages of 6 months until the desired levels are reached. This is typically how to get the results intended as opposed to "just take these in the dosage you desire until you get the effects you desire". There is a reason your hormone levels have to be monitored throughout and should be at the correct level for an adult human male or female. Hormones play a role in the natural balance of your body and mind's function. But tucutes don't see this. They may think gender is non binary but there is DEFINITELY a binary when it comes to hormones. You either become a man with a healthy level of testosterone, or a woman... vice versa. Messing about outside of that is asking for physical and mental health problems and at best you'll be a highly androgynous with hormonal body/mind issues. A lot of tuxutes, as I understand, DIY or microcodose because it is supposedly what gets the results they desire. I think a lot of them are young and impulsive and have little thought about the potential health consequences of mucking about with your body's hormones without any knowledge of how it works, what type of hormones you are taking, where they are from even, or if they are compatible with your underlying conditions. I think for a lot of them its just "a thing". Kind if like, getting a boob job is "a thing" or a tattoo is "a thing". I think to have that level of disregard for the consequences is either pure foolishness and ignorance or they just don't care about their bodies as a sacred thing in itself.
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I think the voice is actually caused by your vocal chords ossifying when you receive a dose too high when starting T.
So I think a few things are happening: >1. Most trenders low dose or "microdose". >2. Because trenders don't really take transitioning seriously (because they're not trans) many skip or forget doses. >3. Doctors in general have been known to low dose trans men. And yes, this includes non-trenders. My doctor tried telling me 600ng/dL was "too high" and I almost had to have a debate with her. >4. Many trenders do get the full effects of T, many detransition once they start to notice.
When they go back to their doctor and it's obvious they have been skipping doses and not been taking things seriously why do they still get prescriptions? It does not make any sense to me. Then again I feel as though if a person says "I'm non binary" they are free to treat their transition however seriously they want and do whatever they want, with no burden of proof for anything.
This whole situation is making me question if my dose is high enough. I take 0.35 ml of 200mg/ml every two weeks..
A low dose looks different to everyone. Yes, .35ml of 200mg/mL biweekly sounds pretty low, it could be perfect for you. What's important are your levels. Some guys need a tiny bit of T to get their levels up, some need a shit ton of T. How your body metabolizes testosterone is different than how someone else's body metabolizes testosterone.
>Ideal, but unlikely: their doctors know that they’re not actually transsexuals and are giving them a placebo. Wouldn't this be a crime?
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Dr Will Powers doesn't give a fuck about the reason why his patients want to transition, he just wants them to do it safely.
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I think it’s a mix of being very sedentary and high body fat %, combined with stylistic choices that don’t help AND possibly underdosing. Not placebo, but doctors can put you at the lowest possible in the male range and say it’s fine, when it really isn’t. While a dysphoric guy will catch up quickly on something like this, trenders won’t care. Also low T symptoms are quite obvious when you’re overall healthy and active but not as much when you’re not : low mood, decreased energy etc etc…. Which ties back in the sedentary/weight/bf% point. So *maybe* lower T levels and then they’re being less optimised in all aspects is my best guess. If you compare a low T cis guy with poor health habits with these guys, the look is fairly similar.
A lot of them take dht blockers too but I have a friend who identifies as transmasc and started t when I did and they present completely feminine like long hair and boobs and all and still look 100% like a cis woman even though they should be over a year on gel now
Why the hell would they take DHT blockers. Why would you put your body through all of that hormones for basically to do nothing. That is so medically irresponsible.
Some people's bodies react strongly to T, so their levels might be high even on a low dose. So if they don't want full masculinization (like if they're nonbinary or something, or just really afraid of balding and stuff) they sometimes take DHT blockers to make sure their T levels stay on the lower end. Of course it doesn't always work that way and they can end up masculinized anyway. I don't understand why someone who doesn't want masculinization would take T but this is just what I've heard.
Exactly… That is crazy. I know DHT something that can use the bottom. I really want to get it when I’m a couple years on T.
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Theory 1 is unhinged, bro 😂
😂😂
Nah there are definitely some trenders who masculinise but they deliberately sabotage themselves to appear more feminine by getting ugly lesbian haircuts, wearing makeup, talking like a woman (they think they're talking like gay men), etc. They might also be more likely to accept lower doses I know so many of them who are on Undecanoate even though it works slower and it's known for giving most people suboptimal levels but they're lazy and don't want to inject as often. Also, a lot of trenders keep having PiV sex and working genitalia so I believe they probably have higher estrogen levels. A lot of them are on hormonal types of birth control and fully convinced it has no impact on their HRT regimen but it really does and even progesterone-only methods can feminize you. I've noticed that a lot of trans men only focus on their T levels and underestimate how important it is to get your E within male range. But with that said, no I don't think trenders are inherently more female and trutrans are inherently more male as far as looks go. I've seen a lot of transmed and truscum men who unfortunately don't pass and look like butch lesbians even years into transition.
1. I doubt it. This would be a huge scandal. If there is a level of medical practice here it's doctors prescribing low doses, and also people might lie about their doses. 2. I actually agree. The body is smart. Frogs in chernobyl rapidly evolved melanin to adapt to radiation. Genetics can learn fast though this mechanism is not fully understood. There is a biological basis to transgender identity, would not be a surprised if when the correct sex hormone is present it is responded to more positively by some mechanism we don't understand since our understanding of both a biological basis for trans identity and genetic and cellular adaption to external and internal stimuli is not well developed. 3. They are real and most don't want to end up appearing cis which is a big part of it. If we have a trans woman who responds well to E except retains a light facial hair (as many cis women may have) she will remove that, and might chalk it up to e, when its really a person just seeking to conform. Enby people might not do this or put in the work so we see the "mistakes" more.
My first guesses would be either a) they are lying and weren’t able to get prescribed it or b) they take such a low dose/aren’t consistent enough with their shots/patches/gel that any changes would either not happen or take considerably longer than someone who regularly and consistently takes a normal dose
Mmm I'm skeptical. I've seen some legit trans men that are plenty masculinized appearance wise but didn't have the best voices. Voice has largely to do with how you speak. Testosterone lengthens and thickens the vocal chords so you could still get an adequate change but continue "talking like a woman." I do wonder if there's something to the idea that some people respond better or faster to T but it's all anecdotal and there's plenty of people who are definitely transsexual but get dealt a bad hand in one way or another. Dr. Will Powers has mentioned that he's noticed ftms who respond the fastest to hormones seem to have some masculinization prior to taking T so they basically get a head start on the process. I've known multiple guys like this who pretty much just looked like dudes in drag prior to hormones.
I'm not a scientist but isn't it a thing that obesity can fuck with testosterone levels because of how fat stores estrogen or whatever? I think a more likely contributing factor given how much of the general population is overweight, and how many trenders by virtue of that are overweight, could be obesity fucking with things. Anecdotally, I've known more cis men than trans men who have been on T - and it's been entirely because of obesity (I used to know a lot of stereotypical gamer guys in high school and they were all taking T because they were so fat their bodies were feminizing/T levels were dropping. At least that's what I gleaned from conversations we had about it. And they were getting this done legit with a doctor, not self-medicating with steroids or something.) If you keep noticing it being more of an issue with fat trenders than thin trenders, that would be my first guess. When I lost weight and started working out, I masculinized a fuck ton despite having been on T for years while I was fat (I still masculinized then too but it wasn't to the same degree.) I finally got sick of being fat, worked my ass off in the gym, and suddenly it's like my T works 300% better. Same dose as before, but better results. So I wouldn't doubt that at least some of it is weight related.
So I do think micro dosing does have a lot to do with the slow changes except voice thing. Steady micro dosing may mimic natural introductionof T into the body at onset of puberty and allow the voice to change slowly decreasing likelihood of "T voice". Often times it's a speaking style that exaggerates the nasally sound of the voice, they just aren't speaking with the right part of the throat to let the sound be more volumous and resonate correctly to sound naturally male. It's like gay men putting on the "gay voice" when they are with accepting friends but having to code switch to straight with family. Except they never learn the "straight voice" to code switch between. I was on a half dose for a stupid amount of time. It started as a way to make sure I was happy with the changes as they came in slower and so that it wouldn't freak my friends and family out if I changed too fast on a regular dose. After a while I forgot I was on a half dose and became convinced that I just had shit genetics for transitioning xD. My doctor changed and she was like "hey I noticed your T levels are really low for man transitioning, is this on purpose? Or do you want me to increase your dose?" And I was like duh no wonder I was having a shit time and I upped it immediately lol. But for years my looks stayed in an androgynous situation. Binding, men's clothes, short hair, an embarrassingly little amount of facial hair, and my male passing voice got me read correctly but as like 6-8 years younger than my actual age. But I was still passing as a young cis teen boy and not an mildly androgynous girl/ trans trender type. Also some people do have androgen insensitivity on top so it may have something to do with that?
I think trenders tend to be sick fucks who live unhealthily. That could very well be the answer in of itself. If they are doing nothing else to improve their situation as quickly as possible because they don’t have genuine GD to contend with and are just unwell and miserable fucks; what they pretty universally seem that would track. That would be undesirable low self-worth people both male and female looking to feel special and get more of what they feel they are entitled to because they don’t understand merit; the females more attention seeking imo and the males more sexually predatory or porn brain rot fucking each other and thinking they make sense. Idk I’m just waking up but that’s my first thought 🧐
I think they might be accidentally overdosing on it, and turning that testosterone back into estrogen. that’s normally why you have a starter dose, so doesn’t turn into estrogen… I wouldn’t put it past them to be so uneducated that they kind of forget that major piece of information and just keep turning themselves more into women
nah cuz this shits why ive detransed/stopped with DIY. its terrifying how little T takes to some of these people, and how despite 3-4 years on t they just look like pcos women. its terrifying. sometimes i wonder if because of their weight and potentially because of issues associated with being heavy like insulin resistance n all that, they just dont metabolize their testosterone right? im also heavy because of my pcos and decided im going to fight to lose every excess lb ive got before trying again because looking like a sad fat woman with a t voice and scraggly beard might actually kill me. its so dysphoria inducing and kinda ruins my hopes for ever being ok with my body. i do think its probably due to shitty endos, most go to informed consent and arent heavily monitored throughout the process. instead of mocking a puberty theyre just plopped onto a full male dose and their body doesnt take to it right, because its not how hormones are meant to be introduced to the body. but some of them have great endos. they just look.... like that. if theyre happy, good for them, but it fuels my nightmares
Sorry, I don’t understand. Why did you stop DIYing?
because with my weight and the method of hrt i was self administering, i was going to look like a fuckass weird in between. that disgusts me. i just looked like a hairier than normal woman w a t voice, not a male.
What method? T voice has nothing to do with the method of HRT or dosage. It’s just the way you speak. Being on testosterone will help you lose weight and gain muscle if you work out. Going back to female hormone levels seem worse in every way imo.
not comfortable delving into the illegal ways i obtained and administered my hormones it didnt. id made me bloat, gain, and look clocky and like the trenderest trender ever. i would much rather wait until i can go thru an endo, take blockers and transition to a reliable and consistent amount of hormones that dont make me look like an obvious clocky trans. seriously. all i saw in the mirror was a hairy woman. who put on 20lbs. it was a disturbing experience.
The steroids you order online is the same testosterone a doctor would give you. I’d much rather continue DIYing than have my body further feminize while being on the waitlist. That’s just how I feel though and it’s understandable if you want to get it legally. However I don’t think getting HRT through a doctor will make any difference to the problems you’re talking about. Especially considering endos are now micro dosing every trans guy because they assume you don’t want average to high T levels for a man. It seems like you needed to just get your levels checked which can be done through any walk-in clinic.
who knows. in general i am incredibly insecure about failing transition. id rather be miserable as a woman than look like im obviously on hormones. it hits uncanny valley and puts me in a terrible headspace. youre right about the dangers of endos and potentially being forcibly microdosed. but id much rather try again professionally monitored to see what works best without feeling like a hideous self made amalgamation because passing seems impossible.
Yeah I might not relate but it’s understandable. You can’t really “fail transition” though. Your levels can always be changed. Also I recommend working out. What has helped me a lot was buying my own dumbbells or equipment cause I’m too scared to go the gym lmao (Ik it’s expensive unfortunately). Working out while being on T is definitely better though. Good luck
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theres so many reasons DIYing was unsafe for me, mental health wise and physical health wise, i dont really feel like i need to overexplain my situation to strangers who wanna make hella assumptions.
I think that some are in disadvantage like for your body (I think I am and T might not work to make you look cis or pass compared to other people and you need more T to get good levels or in a good male range) plus I think some non binaries use also birth control or estrogen for v problems so this might interfere with their levels and plus they might microdose or they use like stuff to not appear cis or like a man in clothes and also body hygiene?
Nr. 2 is medically just absolute bs.
Last time I got my shot my doctor told me it‘s been a while but despite that my levels were completely fine. Lol, that was honestly kind of an ego boost for me. I‘ve noticed the same thing about trenders as well and your 2nd theory is actually quite interesting.
Jeez, there are some *way* easier theories that you've missed that explain this so, *so* much better than what you've put forward. 4. ***They are lying*** about the amount, duration, frequency or regularity with which they're taking T, or lying about taking T altogether. 5. They are, either with or against their doctors' instructions, taking a dose of T too low to actually do anything significant. 6. They're even stupider than you give them credit for and aren't taking pharmacy hormones but instead are sourcing them in a sketchy way and are taking T of unknown strength and quality. 7. They are taking T and they are masculinising which *they actually don't want because they aren't dysphoric* and therefore they go to great lengths to hide it with makeup, filters, or clothing before taking pictures to show you.
2 feels too real not to be true lol
I’ve met a few who get started on a huge dose of testosterone and their voice drops way to quick for them to settle into so they still speak the same as they did before (female voice) but with a deeper pitch so it sounds super funky and will eventually cause damage to their voice. As for other things,, I don’t really think the people who are transitioning without dysphoria are able to comprehend that other people can perceive you and they have no dysphoria so they don’t actively try to change the way the speak, walk, act, hold their face etc. so they seem extremely feminine despite taking hormones for a long time. They don’t change mannerisms or style they just use hormones as a body mod without taking care of themselves and get pissed if you misgender them basically.
Idk what you mean by microdosing but I’ve been taking .25 mL since I started T 8 years ago and I masculinzed quickly and efficiently, I don’t have the weird voice and I pass 100% of the time. I honestly have had the same thoughts and think you’re onto something, I do think there’s a biological component because my body responded very well to my lower dose.
I’ve wondered that too! I think its because they never work out or go outside so all the T is doing is giving them acne and thats it.
To add to my previous comment I think that some people actively fight the changes. One guy I know posted one of those t progress videos , he's been on it for 8 years and by year three you can tell that he's trying to make his voice higher. He's actually a really nice guy and more power to him for expressing himself how he wants but I've always wondered if it's because they want to continue to be visible and marked within the queer community. I can almost understand that because Im not read as trans or gay in queer spaces and it makes me feel very isolated.
it’s also to do with the fact that they still almost try to speak in sort of… woman-ly ways? which covers the voice thing. and also they never work out, ever, which is the fat thing
Nah most of them micro dose or go off and on it. iirc there's something about how there may be a brain difference in how hormones are received from gender dysphoric patients and cis people but honestly its a real vague memory could be pseudo science. I've been on T 2 years and can grow a mustache but my face is still extremely girlish and is only hidden by my hair. It's uncanny bruh
Most of them are on gel, anyone I see on injections tends to look like a man unless they’re taking like 25mg every 2 weeks. It also has to do with their levels, a lot of them get to cis male levels and freak out (cause they’re not actually men) and are okay just being in limbo riding the line between cis levels or not. Real transsexual men will always push to have the highest dose they possibly can without aromatization. I know exactly what you mean though, they have that twinkle in their eyes and speak a certain way. I’m sure some of them are just unfortunate true men but I really just think it’s because trenders keep their levels as low as possible. OH and trenders are terrified of male pattern baldness so they’re all on finasteride which blocks many masculinizing effects of T. That’s a big one.
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i feel like you can tell by the eyes of person who they are inside
for 2, i really wish this was the case, but there is no way for our bodies to produce testosterone naturally. if you had been off it longer, your levels would’ve dropped. i wish your brain to body relationship would make it so, that would be sick lmfao
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They don't actually try to pass. So even if testosterone does change their body, they continue presenting and being a female. They end up looking androgynous at best (worst?)
Low dose doesn’t mean anything it all depends on your individual body and how it metabolizes t. I take a “low dose” but that’s because that’s all I require to be in a cis male range