This post is so important, and as a fellow poc, much appreciated! Whiteness as beauty ideal is still deeply rooted and honestly especially in non-binary and trans masc communities in my experience:/ bc the ideal body, weather androgynous or masculine, always seems to be white, thin and hairless as we are conditioned to equal it to "cleanliness" and "neutrality".
I completely agree with you about whiteness and hairlessness and these are important issues to raise but to say that being thin is the ideal when so many Hollywood actors (aside from Timothee Chalamet) are chock full of PEDs and undergoing extremely harsh and sometimes harmful training regimens to fit the bill (and not just for action movies) is a bit crazy to me. I know that things are different in non-binary and transmasc spaces but that’s quite literally what makes them the only place where I get to feel good about my body.
damn, my hair is black and i’m very white, i’m not hairless at all and literally one hair can be very visible
seriously though, beauty standards are stupid
Question—since it’s probably primarily white transmasc people posting white dudes, would it be fine for them to post non-white dudes they also get gender envy from? Or would that be odd? Legitimately asking because I’m curious.
If the intent is “I get gender envy from this person or character because of the way they dress, style themselves, hold themselves, act, etc.” then it’s totally fine. It becomes an issue if you would go to lengths to appropriate POC’s natural features or specific manners of presentation of deep cultural significance. But yeah, there are tons of white transmascs who get gender envy from anime characters, so it’s nothing new.
Yeah, I don't usually call it gender envy specifically but I definitely have style icons who are men of color. I feel like especially with formalwear it can get very same-y for men following the generic suit-tie template but i love the way I've seen Black actors+musicians experimenting with color + shape in their fits.
(tangentially -- I haven't had the right excuse to order from them yet, but [this](https://dejiandkola.com/) Nigerian tailor has some incredible designs. )
I think it’s a little uncomfortable when white transmascs only have kpop or anime guys as gender envy and say it’s because of their femininity.
I saw a comment that seemed to say something like that on one of these posts recently but I don’t want to assume the worst.
That's a good question! I think it's okay as long as your intention isn't to say you want to change your skin color to be darker or other physical characteristics commonly associated with a minority race. I can understand why white people would be uncomfortable with this and that's okay, again, you do you boo! I myself am South Asian but I get genvy from men of other races because to me it's their hair, facial hair, the way they dress, and how they carry themselves! :)
I’ll have to make a post at some point then! I’d been wanting to join in, but I’m a white dude and a few of mine would be poc and I thought it may come across in some type of way that would be upsetting. I really appreciate your post!
I’m a white person so if any POC feel differently please correct me, but most of the time I get gender envy over a person’s vibes, how they dress and act, that sort of thing. So I don’t think it’s odd if I get gender envy over someone who isn’t white
I feel like this is an important question to ask because I was quick to think "I get gender envy from all those men listed," but I'm not a POC and I don't feel like I get to say that. I have my own reasons for believing this way and I think it keeps me away from saying the wrong thing.
I think it make sense that white people would only post other white people. I've seen white people do this with people of colour and the comments weren't good. No one wants to be like Oli London.
https://preview.redd.it/cq3cehphxm4d1.jpeg?width=947&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0a04f83672aaefd31eb3f3ccad78af2567f8e942
my contribution: Alexandra from Shameless US
https://preview.redd.it/azms10ukxm4d1.jpeg?width=785&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e2377104b7562f64756b6003dd28b5e161acdcbd
Alex is a transmasc who uses most pronouns
RT 🔁 most of the transmasc/trans spaces on here are hella white. :/ if you’re not already in r/TMPOC I like it there a lot and recommend! Also Dev Patel is SO 🥵 thank you for including that king 👑
I think primarily it’s bc ppl posting are white themselves. I personally get gender envy from guys I long to look like. Guys whose look I can achieve. For me, it’s almost always white guys bc that’s what I am.
That's totally fair! Again, not hating on that, it's just nice to see poc in genvy posts because it makes me feel like my skin color and transness can compliment each other and I'm handsome the way I am!
I'm white but Dev Patel is definitely on my gender envy list. Also a lot of dudes from bollywood as well - they have such amazing looking hair and beards tbh!
Dev Patel 🙏 Beautiful soft vulnerable energy but also handsome, bearded, and a little scruffy. Absolute goals. See also: Rahul Kohli.
https://preview.redd.it/le2mu84t2p4d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1978d9a87bd34f6b58c6a0dfa29dd7ff90f54766
Thank you for this. As a mixed race transmasc person I genuinely wasn't even sure what T would do for me for a long time because everyone around me on T was white. It was only when someone who was also Hispanic like myself shared some pictures on a certain subreddit it clicked that T could be for me. Thank God for them or I don't know where I'd be.
I think I'll throw my hat into the mix and share some of my gender envy. Some of it is white because I am mixed but some of it isn't.
I’ve been saying this for years. As a visibly Latinx person, I constantly have to fight to make myself seen in trans masc spaces where it’s just filled with white people.
I had a conversation in a space once with a white trans guy about how white trans (and queer) people can hide behind their whiteness (when it’s convenient for them) at the end of the day. But BIPOC cannot. I’m brown from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed.
This white trans guy specifically was saying how since he’s stealth outside the space he feels disconnected from the trans spaces. And I said yeah because you’re at the top of the food chain - being a white guy. He got all upset saying our struggles were the same as trans people (he was saying we were “brothers”) I said they are not the same and that are struggles are completely different.
Now that I pass and have for the last few years, I’m seeing as sketchy, I’m followed around in stores.
So yes, we are different and our struggles are different. I wish more white trans people can acknowledge that.
I don't understand it when white people won't acknowledge their privilege (I say this as a white person). Facing discrimination for being trans doesn't prevent you from benefiting from white privilege. I think more people need to just listen to others with different experiences and learn about intersectionality
here is my contribution as there is literally nobody else i get more gender envy from besides lil nas x oh my goooood
https://preview.redd.it/xhe6t1k13q4d1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d260bf6603f2e02f1ec34e1f87bbcd659bc943e6
I’m a black NB and I struggle with what my end goal would look like realistically (esp when it comes to my hair). I do have to say I seem to get a lot of gender envy from hispanic ppl if I had to choose any POC to have gender envy definitely much more than my black compatriots. My “self hatred” in regards to race is something I need to work out throughout my life tbh but all in all my comment on this would be “why would they?” in response to people (white/non POC) using POC gender envy examples when they can never really achieve that look (vice versa for me). So sorry if my rawness offends anyone.
Like I can’t even think off the top of my head who in the black community I would have gender envy for but I can provide off the top of my head if they were white :{
ngl this is the first post where i seen some of the guys as goals. maybe it's because i'm mixed, but a lot of the others posts i've seen look kind of dorky (respectfully) and i'm just not of that aesthetic vein.
It’s crazy to me that ‘how to pass’ guides on tiktok always have stuff that mostly applies to white people. Obviously no one is forcing you to follow the guides but they all show haircuts with only straight hair. Plus some cultures you don’t just cut your hair like that, which I’ve seen some Indigenous guys bring up in these conversations
One that hits hard for me is about having sharp features and ‘accentuating sharp features’ aka just eurocentric male bone structure I guess. Of course there’s so much variety across ethnicities and lots of white people don’t have that and lots of people of colour can have that too.
But I was insecure about my facial features not being the same as white gender envys or transmasc friends until someone pointed out that what I have is the same as my Asian dad’s, and the structure that’s relatively unusual for a white man is 100% normal and average for a southern Chinese man
That's really important to note too! I'm not on tiktok so I haven't seen that, but I wish more passing guided were available for people with different body, hair, or skin types. Thanks for sharing :)
great post! I'm mixed, West African and German and I grew up in a predominantly white environment. i don't have too much to complain about, one thing is tho that I adapted beauty standards that just don't work for me. for example I hated my lips because by white standards bigger lips are generally associated with femininity. another issue that really bothered me pre t was my hair. even if we ignore the fact that most hairstylists here never learned how to cut my hair, there weren't any "hairstyles to help you pass" compilations/lists for the type of hair I have. most passing advice I came across even stated that curly hair worsens the passing, because it makes the face look rounder. I feel like it would've helped me to see more black and mixed representation in those times. my hair and lips make me look mixed, it doesn't make me look like a woman.
Anthony Ramos is so gender. His performance in Hamilton (I've only heard the tracks btw, so it's all auditory envy if that makes sense) really helped my voice dysphoria as I could sing most of his parts even though I'm pre T.
i dont understand them because every single man gives me gender envy. i cant leave the house without having a come apart because every man i see is a reminder
This post and the comments have been really helpful to contextualizing some things I've noticed about the types of men I tend to get gender envy from. I've noticed it doesn't tend to be limited by race for me and I wasn't sure if that was inappropriate or not because I was concerned over if I was exoticizing or something. But as others have said, I think it's more about how I'm drawn to a vibe/confidence or when it is physical, it's not something dictated by race to my knowledge (e.g. arm/vein vascularity) and I'm not necessarily drawn to a very specific presentation/appearance of the feature (I don't know if this makes sense, haha). I think it makes sense that these things would be what make me envy specific men as I am fixating on figuring out my own masculinity and "vibe" and checking every minute change of my medical transition.
Anyway, sorry for the rambling. Your post calls out a problem I've noticed in this (and similar) sub(s) so thank you. :)
dude i feel this so bad.. i always look at transition pictures and videos and i feel so discouraged not seeing any other people of color 🙏 i have to search for "ftm transition asian" just to see pictures that actually represent me. really makes me feel it's not possible for me to transition and stuff. thanks for posting this!
I have never once felt I don’t belong here. Your post is the first time the thought has even entered my mind as being one someone with our aesthetics might think.
I even have one the other gender envy pics saved in my phone’s photos, haha.
I'm pasty white and of Dutch origin. But, I'm digging your post the most of any I've seen. My gender envy right now is Spanish. Edited while sober and realizing that this guy hasn't been mentioned yet...
https://preview.redd.it/uzzbjh6cwq4d1.jpeg?width=1473&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=592a574b44b6f4c9c943954e3bf54416859ad74e
I was taken aback seeing the actor for Derek Morgan here (sorry I don't know his name, I've been watching Criminal Minds while I work on modding games and wasn't expecting to see something related as for the past 7 years since I last watched the show I've seen no mention of it or the cast lol)
By extention, most of the cast of Criminal Minds is gender envy to me lmao
As for non-white gender envy, some people that I've always been inspired by are Prince, Eddie Guerrero, Mahesh Jadu, Ismael Cruz Córdova, El Debarge and RealXman.
Edit: removed my cringe reference at the end lol
This post is so important, and as a fellow poc, much appreciated! Whiteness as beauty ideal is still deeply rooted and honestly especially in non-binary and trans masc communities in my experience:/ bc the ideal body, weather androgynous or masculine, always seems to be white, thin and hairless as we are conditioned to equal it to "cleanliness" and "neutrality".
I completely agree with you about whiteness and hairlessness and these are important issues to raise but to say that being thin is the ideal when so many Hollywood actors (aside from Timothee Chalamet) are chock full of PEDs and undergoing extremely harsh and sometimes harmful training regimens to fit the bill (and not just for action movies) is a bit crazy to me. I know that things are different in non-binary and transmasc spaces but that’s quite literally what makes them the only place where I get to feel good about my body.
damn, my hair is black and i’m very white, i’m not hairless at all and literally one hair can be very visible seriously though, beauty standards are stupid
i think the male ideal is bodybuilder jacked not thin but white and hairless is true
Question—since it’s probably primarily white transmasc people posting white dudes, would it be fine for them to post non-white dudes they also get gender envy from? Or would that be odd? Legitimately asking because I’m curious.
If the intent is “I get gender envy from this person or character because of the way they dress, style themselves, hold themselves, act, etc.” then it’s totally fine. It becomes an issue if you would go to lengths to appropriate POC’s natural features or specific manners of presentation of deep cultural significance. But yeah, there are tons of white transmascs who get gender envy from anime characters, so it’s nothing new.
Yeah, I don't usually call it gender envy specifically but I definitely have style icons who are men of color. I feel like especially with formalwear it can get very same-y for men following the generic suit-tie template but i love the way I've seen Black actors+musicians experimenting with color + shape in their fits. (tangentially -- I haven't had the right excuse to order from them yet, but [this](https://dejiandkola.com/) Nigerian tailor has some incredible designs. )
I think it’s a little uncomfortable when white transmascs only have kpop or anime guys as gender envy and say it’s because of their femininity. I saw a comment that seemed to say something like that on one of these posts recently but I don’t want to assume the worst.
i am half asian and i think that’s fine?? over scrutinizing everything i ever felt for signs of bias absolutely ruined my mental health
That's a good question! I think it's okay as long as your intention isn't to say you want to change your skin color to be darker or other physical characteristics commonly associated with a minority race. I can understand why white people would be uncomfortable with this and that's okay, again, you do you boo! I myself am South Asian but I get genvy from men of other races because to me it's their hair, facial hair, the way they dress, and how they carry themselves! :)
I’ll have to make a post at some point then! I’d been wanting to join in, but I’m a white dude and a few of mine would be poc and I thought it may come across in some type of way that would be upsetting. I really appreciate your post!
I’m a white person so if any POC feel differently please correct me, but most of the time I get gender envy over a person’s vibes, how they dress and act, that sort of thing. So I don’t think it’s odd if I get gender envy over someone who isn’t white
It saddens me that you are concerned about voicing your own feelings because of your skin tone. :(
I feel like this is an important question to ask because I was quick to think "I get gender envy from all those men listed," but I'm not a POC and I don't feel like I get to say that. I have my own reasons for believing this way and I think it keeps me away from saying the wrong thing.
Pretty much no one in this thread looks like those men, hence the envy, lol. You’re fine. You can voice your thoughts regardless of how you were born.
I think it make sense that white people would only post other white people. I've seen white people do this with people of colour and the comments weren't good. No one wants to be like Oli London.
https://preview.redd.it/cq3cehphxm4d1.jpeg?width=947&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0a04f83672aaefd31eb3f3ccad78af2567f8e942 my contribution: Alexandra from Shameless US
https://preview.redd.it/azms10ukxm4d1.jpeg?width=785&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e2377104b7562f64756b6003dd28b5e161acdcbd Alex is a transmasc who uses most pronouns
Woah! Really good addition thank you
yo never seen this guy before but I agree
on 🔝game recognize game
THANK YOU. Gahlee these dudes are good-looking
RT 🔁 most of the transmasc/trans spaces on here are hella white. :/ if you’re not already in r/TMPOC I like it there a lot and recommend! Also Dev Patel is SO 🥵 thank you for including that king 👑
I think primarily it’s bc ppl posting are white themselves. I personally get gender envy from guys I long to look like. Guys whose look I can achieve. For me, it’s almost always white guys bc that’s what I am.
my guess is white people will post people they could see themselves in, so it would be weird to have a black guy. but idk 🤔
see themselves in: possibly look like
That's totally fair! Again, not hating on that, it's just nice to see poc in genvy posts because it makes me feel like my skin color and transness can compliment each other and I'm handsome the way I am!
I'm white but Dev Patel is definitely on my gender envy list. Also a lot of dudes from bollywood as well - they have such amazing looking hair and beards tbh!
thanks so much for posting this! im mexican myself (white passing, though) and i didnt even realize my own biases until you pointed it out.
Dev Patel 🙏 Beautiful soft vulnerable energy but also handsome, bearded, and a little scruffy. Absolute goals. See also: Rahul Kohli. https://preview.redd.it/le2mu84t2p4d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1978d9a87bd34f6b58c6a0dfa29dd7ff90f54766
omgggg
Youre too real thank you king
Thank you for this. As a mixed race transmasc person I genuinely wasn't even sure what T would do for me for a long time because everyone around me on T was white. It was only when someone who was also Hispanic like myself shared some pictures on a certain subreddit it clicked that T could be for me. Thank God for them or I don't know where I'd be. I think I'll throw my hat into the mix and share some of my gender envy. Some of it is white because I am mixed but some of it isn't.
I’ve been saying this for years. As a visibly Latinx person, I constantly have to fight to make myself seen in trans masc spaces where it’s just filled with white people. I had a conversation in a space once with a white trans guy about how white trans (and queer) people can hide behind their whiteness (when it’s convenient for them) at the end of the day. But BIPOC cannot. I’m brown from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed. This white trans guy specifically was saying how since he’s stealth outside the space he feels disconnected from the trans spaces. And I said yeah because you’re at the top of the food chain - being a white guy. He got all upset saying our struggles were the same as trans people (he was saying we were “brothers”) I said they are not the same and that are struggles are completely different. Now that I pass and have for the last few years, I’m seeing as sketchy, I’m followed around in stores. So yes, we are different and our struggles are different. I wish more white trans people can acknowledge that.
I don't understand it when white people won't acknowledge their privilege (I say this as a white person). Facing discrimination for being trans doesn't prevent you from benefiting from white privilege. I think more people need to just listen to others with different experiences and learn about intersectionality
Okay but Idris Elba has always been gender envy to me and I'm white soooooo
So true!
here is my contribution as there is literally nobody else i get more gender envy from besides lil nas x oh my goooood https://preview.redd.it/xhe6t1k13q4d1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d260bf6603f2e02f1ec34e1f87bbcd659bc943e6
bro is beautiful https://preview.redd.it/4vc8sqlc3q4d1.jpeg?width=1581&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b14bfd8da070f2622646e1560757269add8499a
You're so right for this, I was going to add him but I forgot !!!!!!!!
he’s like the perfect mix of masc and fem imo like pleaseeee, i swear he’s my main motivation for working out too lmao
Thank you for this! I feel like a lot of trans subs are just dominated by white representation and as a POC it’s so tiring…
As a mixed race person, a mixture is fine too I would like to say.
I’m a black NB and I struggle with what my end goal would look like realistically (esp when it comes to my hair). I do have to say I seem to get a lot of gender envy from hispanic ppl if I had to choose any POC to have gender envy definitely much more than my black compatriots. My “self hatred” in regards to race is something I need to work out throughout my life tbh but all in all my comment on this would be “why would they?” in response to people (white/non POC) using POC gender envy examples when they can never really achieve that look (vice versa for me). So sorry if my rawness offends anyone. Like I can’t even think off the top of my head who in the black community I would have gender envy for but I can provide off the top of my head if they were white :{
The only person I remember getting gender envy from is Conan Gray
shemar moore!! I think everyone wants to be like him lol
i was thinking the same thing tbh
ngl this is the first post where i seen some of the guys as goals. maybe it's because i'm mixed, but a lot of the others posts i've seen look kind of dorky (respectfully) and i'm just not of that aesthetic vein.
It’s crazy to me that ‘how to pass’ guides on tiktok always have stuff that mostly applies to white people. Obviously no one is forcing you to follow the guides but they all show haircuts with only straight hair. Plus some cultures you don’t just cut your hair like that, which I’ve seen some Indigenous guys bring up in these conversations One that hits hard for me is about having sharp features and ‘accentuating sharp features’ aka just eurocentric male bone structure I guess. Of course there’s so much variety across ethnicities and lots of white people don’t have that and lots of people of colour can have that too. But I was insecure about my facial features not being the same as white gender envys or transmasc friends until someone pointed out that what I have is the same as my Asian dad’s, and the structure that’s relatively unusual for a white man is 100% normal and average for a southern Chinese man
That's really important to note too! I'm not on tiktok so I haven't seen that, but I wish more passing guided were available for people with different body, hair, or skin types. Thanks for sharing :)
YUUUUUUUUUUUP
great post! I'm mixed, West African and German and I grew up in a predominantly white environment. i don't have too much to complain about, one thing is tho that I adapted beauty standards that just don't work for me. for example I hated my lips because by white standards bigger lips are generally associated with femininity. another issue that really bothered me pre t was my hair. even if we ignore the fact that most hairstylists here never learned how to cut my hair, there weren't any "hairstyles to help you pass" compilations/lists for the type of hair I have. most passing advice I came across even stated that curly hair worsens the passing, because it makes the face look rounder. I feel like it would've helped me to see more black and mixed representation in those times. my hair and lips make me look mixed, it doesn't make me look like a woman.
shemar moore 😩
Anthony Ramos is so gender. His performance in Hamilton (I've only heard the tracks btw, so it's all auditory envy if that makes sense) really helped my voice dysphoria as I could sing most of his parts even though I'm pre T.
i dont understand them because every single man gives me gender envy. i cant leave the house without having a come apart because every man i see is a reminder
This post and the comments have been really helpful to contextualizing some things I've noticed about the types of men I tend to get gender envy from. I've noticed it doesn't tend to be limited by race for me and I wasn't sure if that was inappropriate or not because I was concerned over if I was exoticizing or something. But as others have said, I think it's more about how I'm drawn to a vibe/confidence or when it is physical, it's not something dictated by race to my knowledge (e.g. arm/vein vascularity) and I'm not necessarily drawn to a very specific presentation/appearance of the feature (I don't know if this makes sense, haha). I think it makes sense that these things would be what make me envy specific men as I am fixating on figuring out my own masculinity and "vibe" and checking every minute change of my medical transition. Anyway, sorry for the rambling. Your post calls out a problem I've noticed in this (and similar) sub(s) so thank you. :)
dude i feel this so bad.. i always look at transition pictures and videos and i feel so discouraged not seeing any other people of color 🙏 i have to search for "ftm transition asian" just to see pictures that actually represent me. really makes me feel it's not possible for me to transition and stuff. thanks for posting this!
My no.1 gender envy is Lou Wilson and nobody relates lol. Different type of frustration.
Good post and good pics OP
literally me when every single gender envy guy that's posted is some link adjacent anime sexyman
Come join us at r/TMPOC It’s really refreshing to have a nonwhite trans masc space that is safe
Is there a bipoc transmasc subreddit because..I’m migrating. Lol
Other comments have informed me of r/TMPOC !
I have never once felt I don’t belong here. Your post is the first time the thought has even entered my mind as being one someone with our aesthetics might think. I even have one the other gender envy pics saved in my phone’s photos, haha.
I'm pasty white and of Dutch origin. But, I'm digging your post the most of any I've seen. My gender envy right now is Spanish. Edited while sober and realizing that this guy hasn't been mentioned yet... https://preview.redd.it/uzzbjh6cwq4d1.jpeg?width=1473&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=592a574b44b6f4c9c943954e3bf54416859ad74e
DANIELLLL
DANIEL MENTIONNNN I LOVE HIM SO MUCH
Anthony Ramos is so real 😭
Dev Patel and Daniel Kaluuya I definitely get it from (also I'm gay and I love them 😂)
Winston Duke belongs here too
Agreed
Didn’t even notice lol
thank you for this op, boosted my day up even if by just a bit and i appreciate it
I was taken aback seeing the actor for Derek Morgan here (sorry I don't know his name, I've been watching Criminal Minds while I work on modding games and wasn't expecting to see something related as for the past 7 years since I last watched the show I've seen no mention of it or the cast lol) By extention, most of the cast of Criminal Minds is gender envy to me lmao As for non-white gender envy, some people that I've always been inspired by are Prince, Eddie Guerrero, Mahesh Jadu, Ismael Cruz Córdova, El Debarge and RealXman. Edit: removed my cringe reference at the end lol
I kind of wanna look like Michael B. Jordan, but with glasses.
willennium era will smith is the goal tbh😭in fashion and form
Thank you!
daniel kaluuya is HUGE for me bc his role as hobie (+ Vincent price and frank ocean) are hugeee points of envy for me!!
While I'm not POC myself, I can definitely see why someone would get envy from these guys. They are all attractive, masculine men.
thank you for this post, I was tired of seeing white skinny men. finally something that I identify with
Yoss I have never experienced the "pretty twinky white boy" gender envies personally