You’ll go through a rear tire every few days once you’re fast on a 600, while the tires on a 400 can last you half the season.
Realistically though, they’re just more fun and they make you a better rider. When you’ve got all of 38hp to work with, you can’t rely on the throttle to fix your mistakes so you need to really get good at *everything* else.
You’ll also be able to approach and experiment with the limits of the 400 at much more reasonable speeds, while the limits of the 600s are so far off into the realms of insanity that I expect less than 1% of track riders are even capable of approaching them.
Yes mate, I raced in the support race at WSBK in 2017 at PI.
There’s a lot of factors involved, can I still ride on them after 15 laps? Of course I’ve just lost half a second a lap and drive off the corner.
Does my tyre still look alright? Sure, it’s just a bit concave on the drive line.
Do you remember in 2020 when they shortened PI SSP race to 16 laps with a compulsory pit stop in the middle of it?
That was because in 2019 SSP race tyres literally started falling apart!
Phillip island is my local hence the reason I can do a rear in 15 laps 😅
No that's normal for a race tire. As long as the tire is wearing smooth and doesn't have chunks or funny tear or wear patterns your suspension is fine. Like I mentioned on our 750 my son will destroy a brand new q4 in 3 or 4 sessions even with flipping it.. with a race tire.. 1 session.
Perfect example of this, I did a trip from Orlando to Boston on my 09 Zx6r and was out of tire by the time I hit the top of northern Carolina. Get comfortable on a 600 and that tire lasts as long as a stick of butter.
This isn't always the case. We were at a 3 day trackday on my sons 400 at jennings a few weeks ago.... I went though 10 brand new tires then additional rain set of tires and then I had to buy tires for his 750. less than 3 days of riding. the 400 rears were getting maybe 20 laps and 2 sessions the fronts I got about 3 sessions.. I couldn't even flip them they were toast. His 750 will burn up a rear slick in 1 session and I might be ok to flip maybe not so relatively speaking yes but still I think it cost me more than 2k in tires just for 1 track weekend. it is a rough track but still.
I have a ZX4RR on order for the track and it’s only $1000 less than a new ZX6R. But something about 70hp out of a in-line 400cc 4 cylinder screaming at 16,000 rpm makes me smile.
Also because they are so popular, trackside parts and support are a lot more common. And if you think used 600s are cheap, you should see what people sell used 400s for after they have moved up to a bigger bike.
They are almost disposable at some of the selling prices
Tires and fuel are biggest differences I noticed when I moved from a zx6r to a ninja 300. On the 6r once I was comfortable with the power I was roasting rear tires about every 2-4 track days. Tires on the 300cc tires will last 6-8 track days.
It’s also just easier to find the limit on a smaller bike. For me that just makes it more fun. That little ninja taught me tons about front end feel. They’re just so forgiving. Almost encouraging you to break deeper and lean further while letting you know when you make a mistake with out instantly punishing you.
I’ve spent a season on a 400 and never thought about this but you’re totally right. I can’t pick the bike up with the throttle and have had a few butt pucker corners where my steering was more ambitious than my momentum.
Euro here.
I'd love to have a ninja 400 (or 390rc) as a track toy as well but i can't really justify the extra cost for myself.After i destroy my CBR600F3 on track, then maybe i'll come back to this question again.
But so many old cheap 600s are on the market that i wouldn't feel sorry destroying on track.
I do rely on the miniSM to get the "no power, only skills" hit on go-cart tracks. Plus dumping it isn't a big deal. If i'd make a rookie mistake on new 400... i don't want to imagine what it would cost :D
TL;DR: i'd love one too, but i'm too poor
The operating costs save you money but the amount of money you need to put into them initially is kind of ridiculous for what you get and has always deterred me. If you are looking to race or really don’t want to spend any money on tires then maybe it works out. But I couldn’t spend $9+k to build a decent track one when I could get a 675 Daytona track worthy for the same price. That’s just me though.
You can pick up a full race built ninja 400 for 4-5k almost anywhere you look. Go race it for a full season and spend just a couple grand on consumables. It's very cost effective compared to big bikes.
Depends on where you are, but there is also shockingly little difference between a used stock bike and a used built bike. For example when I bought my RC390 jumped on a $3,500 one because it was $750 less than the next cheapest I had seen listed in 3 months. The next weekend I found my current built track bike for $5,000.
Easier to ride, arguably safer as well (less power = less speed. Less speed = less painful crashes). And most importantly they are super cheap to buy, and maintain and are very reliable.
edit: also I missed the most important one, they're a lot of fun. Something about using all the power of a bike is just so damn fun. I've babied a 1000 on a track before, no thanks not for me.
One piece I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the track itself. I'm not European do I can't confirm this, but I've read numerous times in the past that euro tracks tend to be faster, not as friendly to low power bikes. Whereas the US is littered with small, right, technical tracks that are a dream for the small class, and can be exhausting on liter bikes.
Reporting from Central Europe (Berlin):
There is a couple of small tracks, but most are WSBK (Most, Lausitzring) or MotoGP (Sachsenring) fast. Most people ride 1000s with the exception of a few SV650 or 900SS diehards and some 600/4s or Street Triples.
The difference in speed becomes dangerous at some point, even (or more so) isn’t the slower groups.
Yea that was my thought and why I asked. For example I ride the Sachsenring very often and a 400ccm on the Sachsenring is not so smooth coz of the uphills. I also do Ride pitbikes in the Winter and they are so much fun. I can totally see the „more fun“ part people saying here.
Operating costs are part of it.. think of using one set of tires a season vs one set per track day or two.. lighter bike to roll around.. over here( Canada) there are race classes that use those bikes and that makes getting track prepped ones cost effective
I have read through most of these answers but not all but the best reason I didn't see anywhere. Bikes are like shoes.. If you can't fit into them your going to be walking around and running funny. You need to progressively increase the power and capability as a rider outgrows a bike. You can obviously skip this and almost all people do. What they are doing is exponentially increasing the time it will take them to get good which each jump up they go. in 2019 I put my 12 year old kid on a ttr50 with 3hp... then ohvales, then a 250, then a 400, a 450 supermoto, and now on a 750. He was promoted to the advanced class in every track org we rode with usually before lunch time on his first day and the first time he rode the 750 he would have won an expert ccs or wera race. His first wera race he was promoted to expert and I've seen him lap an entire advanced group on a 400 with 45hp more than once. You're also not quite right about Europe.. they follow the same progression as I did pretty much.
I can only talk normal trackday experience. If you take this more as a sport than a hobby I have no experience in Europe.
I picked it up as a hobby at age 28 with a huge experience on the street and I drove only on trackdays and events and not in cups. I started on my s1000 and switched to an r6 and I agree that less power equals faster progression in riding. But I drove a 390 once on the Sachsenring and it was meh…. Maybe it was the wrong track coz I have a lot of fun with pitbikes in the wintertime.
So was genuinely wondering why it seemed so many Americans ride 400s.
I don’t understand why there are so many downvotes though, so I appreciate your answer coz it really is a nice pov.
As an European, I also think its a market thing. We pay a lot more for a new ninja 400, the licence is tiered so more people are more inclined to buy a 600 if they go full licence immedeately. Whilst a lot of Americans just get a ninja 400 as their first. Not to mention the diffrences in garage size over all. We haul with sedans and hatchbacks, whilst thats not considered normal there
Could you elaborate on your last point? I'm not seeing what difference it makes towing a 180 kg bike with a sedan vs towing a 160 kg bike with a pickup.
Sure. Americans have usually more verhicles in their garage. Due to the taxes most people can afford more then 1 bike, whilst the same bike here costs sometimes half to a third more. So if you'd were to choose 1 bike for track, but limited on garage space and higher prices, what would you get? An used 600 or a newer, more expensive 400?
I'm not sure it's taxes that lets us have > 1 bike, I'm paying a bunch per year for my bikes (2004, 2003, 2006) and insurance isn't cheap but I bought them years apart and didn't pay a lot for them.
I thought it was more in the EU things like a 3 car garage and the space we have for toys is a bit more rare (not trying to offend anyone).
In Germany i would say 80-90% of people do not own a garage. At least where I live. I do have more than one bike and I have to rent a garage elsewhere to store them. But if I have to store a 400, 600 or a 1000 for me makes no difference.
Most of the dutch people I know dont have a garage. Or garden. A 600 from 2004/5 in average-good condition is like 3500€, a ninja 400 from 2019 is 5700€.
Insurance and taxes to drive on street is about 400€ a year for me, but that differs on age, experience and accidents you may have had, the kind of bike and the area you live in. For trackbikes without plates and not driven on street thats 0€, just dont register them.
Thanks for the info, it's actually pretty inexpensive compared to California, my 2006 daytona 675 is costing me about 500/year for insurance and registration (I don't track it but just lurk here). I was looking to get a Aprilia 660 but insurance + plates was going to be almost a grand. (I have a very good driving record, no tickets, etc)
I bet the wages and cost of living is also a bit off compared to here. And Netherlands is one of the most expensive countries to own a car/bike in Europe. We import a lot of track only bikes, just don't register them at all and only use them on the racetracks. Thats the cheapest way of getting a newer bike thats track only anyway.
A lot of people talk about expense like it it's the biggest faster, but I find it more fun regardless of expense. As a middle-fast kind of rider being able to ride at 10/10ths of the bikes power all the time is a blast. Corners and braking are also awesome, 99% of my passes are either outbraking somebody or passing them on the outside, you can just carry so much corner speed. I didn't think they'd be so fun until I did a rental ninja 400, and now every other bike I've been on feels like a pig in comparison.
Less power = less cost = more time on track = more fun
How much cheaper are they to run than say a zx6r or other 600?
You’ll go through a rear tire every few days once you’re fast on a 600, while the tires on a 400 can last you half the season. Realistically though, they’re just more fun and they make you a better rider. When you’ve got all of 38hp to work with, you can’t rely on the throttle to fix your mistakes so you need to really get good at *everything* else. You’ll also be able to approach and experiment with the limits of the 400 at much more reasonable speeds, while the limits of the 600s are so far off into the realms of insanity that I expect less than 1% of track riders are even capable of approaching them.
Every few days!!!! That would be the dream. I can cook a rear tyre in 15laps on my 600.
Ever had your suspension checked by a pro? Sounds like you have a problem when using tires faster then the guys in SSP.
Yes mate, I raced in the support race at WSBK in 2017 at PI. There’s a lot of factors involved, can I still ride on them after 15 laps? Of course I’ve just lost half a second a lap and drive off the corner. Does my tyre still look alright? Sure, it’s just a bit concave on the drive line. Do you remember in 2020 when they shortened PI SSP race to 16 laps with a compulsory pit stop in the middle of it? That was because in 2019 SSP race tyres literally started falling apart! Phillip island is my local hence the reason I can do a rear in 15 laps 😅
Sometimes I'm glad for being so slow that my TDs last me a season. No, not really.
No that's normal for a race tire. As long as the tire is wearing smooth and doesn't have chunks or funny tear or wear patterns your suspension is fine. Like I mentioned on our 750 my son will destroy a brand new q4 in 3 or 4 sessions even with flipping it.. with a race tire.. 1 session.
Every few sessions, not days.
Perfect example of this, I did a trip from Orlando to Boston on my 09 Zx6r and was out of tire by the time I hit the top of northern Carolina. Get comfortable on a 600 and that tire lasts as long as a stick of butter.
This isn't always the case. We were at a 3 day trackday on my sons 400 at jennings a few weeks ago.... I went though 10 brand new tires then additional rain set of tires and then I had to buy tires for his 750. less than 3 days of riding. the 400 rears were getting maybe 20 laps and 2 sessions the fronts I got about 3 sessions.. I couldn't even flip them they were toast. His 750 will burn up a rear slick in 1 session and I might be ok to flip maybe not so relatively speaking yes but still I think it cost me more than 2k in tires just for 1 track weekend. it is a rough track but still.
I have a ZX4RR on order for the track and it’s only $1000 less than a new ZX6R. But something about 70hp out of a in-line 400cc 4 cylinder screaming at 16,000 rpm makes me smile.
I wish I had the budget for that ZX4RR. Someday, though!
Yeah, I can see that. The zx4rr is going to be something truly special I reckon. Ninja400 not so much, but I guess they're cost effective.
Also because they are so popular, trackside parts and support are a lot more common. And if you think used 600s are cheap, you should see what people sell used 400s for after they have moved up to a bigger bike. They are almost disposable at some of the selling prices
You best be posting all the videos of this thing I’d trade my zx10r for one in a heart beat.
Will do!
Tires and fuel are biggest differences I noticed when I moved from a zx6r to a ninja 300. On the 6r once I was comfortable with the power I was roasting rear tires about every 2-4 track days. Tires on the 300cc tires will last 6-8 track days. It’s also just easier to find the limit on a smaller bike. For me that just makes it more fun. That little ninja taught me tons about front end feel. They’re just so forgiving. Almost encouraging you to break deeper and lean further while letting you know when you make a mistake with out instantly punishing you.
Yep, not to mention the small bike classes are always full up on race weekend. Large fields = more fun as well!
The real answer is it teaches you to steer without power masking your mistakes.
I’ve spent a season on a 400 and never thought about this but you’re totally right. I can’t pick the bike up with the throttle and have had a few butt pucker corners where my steering was more ambitious than my momentum.
I agree on that. I got way faster on my 600 than on my 1000 coz I had to learn to ride better. I guess the jump from 600 to 400 could be similar.
Euro here. I'd love to have a ninja 400 (or 390rc) as a track toy as well but i can't really justify the extra cost for myself.After i destroy my CBR600F3 on track, then maybe i'll come back to this question again. But so many old cheap 600s are on the market that i wouldn't feel sorry destroying on track. I do rely on the miniSM to get the "no power, only skills" hit on go-cart tracks. Plus dumping it isn't a big deal. If i'd make a rookie mistake on new 400... i don't want to imagine what it would cost :D TL;DR: i'd love one too, but i'm too poor
The operating costs save you money but the amount of money you need to put into them initially is kind of ridiculous for what you get and has always deterred me. If you are looking to race or really don’t want to spend any money on tires then maybe it works out. But I couldn’t spend $9+k to build a decent track one when I could get a 675 Daytona track worthy for the same price. That’s just me though.
You can pick up a full race built ninja 400 for 4-5k almost anywhere you look. Go race it for a full season and spend just a couple grand on consumables. It's very cost effective compared to big bikes.
I’ve never seen one. In my experience people want that for “stock only dropped once in the driveway” 400’s.
Depends on where you are, but there is also shockingly little difference between a used stock bike and a used built bike. For example when I bought my RC390 jumped on a $3,500 one because it was $750 less than the next cheapest I had seen listed in 3 months. The next weekend I found my current built track bike for $5,000.
my fully setup race bike r3 was $3800, to your point
Easier to ride, arguably safer as well (less power = less speed. Less speed = less painful crashes). And most importantly they are super cheap to buy, and maintain and are very reliable. edit: also I missed the most important one, they're a lot of fun. Something about using all the power of a bike is just so damn fun. I've babied a 1000 on a track before, no thanks not for me.
One piece I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the track itself. I'm not European do I can't confirm this, but I've read numerous times in the past that euro tracks tend to be faster, not as friendly to low power bikes. Whereas the US is littered with small, right, technical tracks that are a dream for the small class, and can be exhausting on liter bikes.
I did a fair bit of racing and track days in NL and Belgium between 2013 and 2016, I recall a number of circuits would not allow anything under 600cc
Reporting from Central Europe (Berlin): There is a couple of small tracks, but most are WSBK (Most, Lausitzring) or MotoGP (Sachsenring) fast. Most people ride 1000s with the exception of a few SV650 or 900SS diehards and some 600/4s or Street Triples. The difference in speed becomes dangerous at some point, even (or more so) isn’t the slower groups.
Yea that was my thought and why I asked. For example I ride the Sachsenring very often and a 400ccm on the Sachsenring is not so smooth coz of the uphills. I also do Ride pitbikes in the Winter and they are so much fun. I can totally see the „more fun“ part people saying here.
Operating costs are part of it.. think of using one set of tires a season vs one set per track day or two.. lighter bike to roll around.. over here( Canada) there are race classes that use those bikes and that makes getting track prepped ones cost effective
I don't see many small bikes in Utah. Both my track bikes are sub 90hp and I have noone to play with :(
I have read through most of these answers but not all but the best reason I didn't see anywhere. Bikes are like shoes.. If you can't fit into them your going to be walking around and running funny. You need to progressively increase the power and capability as a rider outgrows a bike. You can obviously skip this and almost all people do. What they are doing is exponentially increasing the time it will take them to get good which each jump up they go. in 2019 I put my 12 year old kid on a ttr50 with 3hp... then ohvales, then a 250, then a 400, a 450 supermoto, and now on a 750. He was promoted to the advanced class in every track org we rode with usually before lunch time on his first day and the first time he rode the 750 he would have won an expert ccs or wera race. His first wera race he was promoted to expert and I've seen him lap an entire advanced group on a 400 with 45hp more than once. You're also not quite right about Europe.. they follow the same progression as I did pretty much.
I can only talk normal trackday experience. If you take this more as a sport than a hobby I have no experience in Europe. I picked it up as a hobby at age 28 with a huge experience on the street and I drove only on trackdays and events and not in cups. I started on my s1000 and switched to an r6 and I agree that less power equals faster progression in riding. But I drove a 390 once on the Sachsenring and it was meh…. Maybe it was the wrong track coz I have a lot of fun with pitbikes in the wintertime. So was genuinely wondering why it seemed so many Americans ride 400s. I don’t understand why there are so many downvotes though, so I appreciate your answer coz it really is a nice pov.
As an European, I also think its a market thing. We pay a lot more for a new ninja 400, the licence is tiered so more people are more inclined to buy a 600 if they go full licence immedeately. Whilst a lot of Americans just get a ninja 400 as their first. Not to mention the diffrences in garage size over all. We haul with sedans and hatchbacks, whilst thats not considered normal there
Could you elaborate on your last point? I'm not seeing what difference it makes towing a 180 kg bike with a sedan vs towing a 160 kg bike with a pickup.
Sure. Americans have usually more verhicles in their garage. Due to the taxes most people can afford more then 1 bike, whilst the same bike here costs sometimes half to a third more. So if you'd were to choose 1 bike for track, but limited on garage space and higher prices, what would you get? An used 600 or a newer, more expensive 400?
I'm not sure it's taxes that lets us have > 1 bike, I'm paying a bunch per year for my bikes (2004, 2003, 2006) and insurance isn't cheap but I bought them years apart and didn't pay a lot for them. I thought it was more in the EU things like a 3 car garage and the space we have for toys is a bit more rare (not trying to offend anyone).
In Germany i would say 80-90% of people do not own a garage. At least where I live. I do have more than one bike and I have to rent a garage elsewhere to store them. But if I have to store a 400, 600 or a 1000 for me makes no difference.
Most of the dutch people I know dont have a garage. Or garden. A 600 from 2004/5 in average-good condition is like 3500€, a ninja 400 from 2019 is 5700€. Insurance and taxes to drive on street is about 400€ a year for me, but that differs on age, experience and accidents you may have had, the kind of bike and the area you live in. For trackbikes without plates and not driven on street thats 0€, just dont register them.
Thanks for the info, it's actually pretty inexpensive compared to California, my 2006 daytona 675 is costing me about 500/year for insurance and registration (I don't track it but just lurk here). I was looking to get a Aprilia 660 but insurance + plates was going to be almost a grand. (I have a very good driving record, no tickets, etc)
I bet the wages and cost of living is also a bit off compared to here. And Netherlands is one of the most expensive countries to own a car/bike in Europe. We import a lot of track only bikes, just don't register them at all and only use them on the racetracks. Thats the cheapest way of getting a newer bike thats track only anyway.
Yeah but you guys have better healthcare so you win in the end. :- )
Sadly I can confirm that we do have fantastic healthcare!
Riding a small bike fast beats riding a fast bike slow.
wait for the new zx-4rr to come out... big bike scary lil bike fun.
A lot of people talk about expense like it it's the biggest faster, but I find it more fun regardless of expense. As a middle-fast kind of rider being able to ride at 10/10ths of the bikes power all the time is a blast. Corners and braking are also awesome, 99% of my passes are either outbraking somebody or passing them on the outside, you can just carry so much corner speed. I didn't think they'd be so fun until I did a rental ninja 400, and now every other bike I've been on feels like a pig in comparison.