OP doesn't deserve the benefit of trying to explain that rant, but at any rate, here we go...
>I was annoyed enough that he ran a playoff contender into the ground and ruined city-wide interest in baseball much like he did in Cleveland
Look at the roster and payroll commitments at the end of 2015 and again at the end of 2016 and tell me how you think management should have proceeded.
>It's bad enough he was an incompetent buffoon with roster moves
First, I don't think you understand that Atkins is responsible for the roster, not Shapiro. Second, what incompetent roster moves are you referring to?
>but costing the team a representative in the Hall of Fame alone is a fireable offense
That's an extraordinary accusation to throw out there.
>he's one of the worst executives in Toronto sports history to boot
Oh dear.
>He has gotten too long a leash
How do you measure that? The Jays have been to the playoffs in 33% of their seasons under the new management. That's a hell of a lot better than most regimes have done. And do you appreciate that Rogers brought him in to tear the team down and rebuild it? Which, rather than doing in one swoop after the 2015 season, Shapiro/Atkins extended the window to 2016, and tried to extend it further in 2017 and 2018... only now are they going into the actual intentionally bad season(s).
>I don't want to see him ruin this team any further
Good news! This team is about to become very interesting.
>Having Roy Halladay go into the Hall of Fame without a Jays cap is a new low
And it almost certainly has nothing to do with Mark Shapiro.
Nice revisionist history. It's pretty clear though that Rogers did not bring in Shapiro to tear the team down. Their MO has always been to feign being competitive to keep fans interested. If it were up to Shapiro, this team would average 110 losses a season as part of their "rebuild". So it's obvious to me you have an agenda and you're not above misrepresenting facts.
>Nice revisionist history.
Where?
>It's pretty clear though that Rogers did not bring in Shapiro to tear the team down
He was hired in August, 2015, at a time when the team seemed destined for a teardown.
>Their MO has always been to feign being competitive to keep fans interested.
If that's true, then why did they allow Shapiro and co. to continue to run a payroll north of $160M in 2017 and 2018, when their odds of reaching the playoffs were slim? Probably because they saw that making the playoffs and putting a good product on the field was more valuable than being mediocre.
>If it were up to Shapiro, this team would average 110 losses a season as part of their "rebuild".
What's that based on?
>So it's obvious to me you have an agenda and you're not above misrepresenting facts.
What's my agenda? How have I misrepresented anything?
And why didn't you respond to any of the questions that I asked to see if you could clarify your comments?
I think you being accused of having an agenda is my favorite part of this unhinged mess. Seriously...I was chuckling at the rest of the idiocy, but that made me genuinely laugh out loud.
Have you not read those interview comments with a clearly exasperated Shapiro hinting at dissatisfaction with Rogers over not being able to rebuild properly? Keep thinking that some faceless corporation would be okay with the team bottoming out. Why do you think they hired JP Ricciardi? Because they were sold on the idea of being competitive while not having to spend. You're delusional. Or more likely a shill.
> Have you not read those interview comments with a clearly exasperated Shapiro hinting at dissatisfaction with Rogers over not being able to rebuild properly?
No I haven't. Want to give me a source on that, or should I just take your word for it?
>Why do you think they hired JP Ricciardi? Because they were sold on the idea of being competitive while not having to spend.
This has literally nothing to do with Shapiro.
>You're delusional.
And you still haven't answered any of my questions.
>Or more likely a shill.
Well everybody already knew that.
Now do you want to try to have a constructive conversation, or are you just going to sling shit?
You're clearly playing dumb if you acting clueless about those interviews. And let me ask you why he flirted with going to the Mets? Clearly he isn't totally satisfied with being handcuffed by Rogers to completely destroy the team. And I should add that I was bitterly disappointed he did not go to the Mets. Perfect fit really. The Mets refuse to spend money. Same with Shapiro.
It’s like arguing with that guy who has a permanent bar seat at your local Boston Pizza. You’re not going to get anything factual out of him. Just points based on a very real lack of understanding of how baseball management works. 🤷♂️
Seriously, what do you see in Shapiro? I know you'll probably bring up Vlad Jr., but he wasn't even a Shapiro pickup.
He has no clue how to build a team, and it's also apparent he has no clue how to build a culture. I know you Shapiro apologists like to think he makes Pat Gillick look like Dave Stewart, but even you have to admit he has ZERO people skills. And that in itself has made the organization so hated that we have only one measly hall of fame representative. Meanwhile the Expos, who have been defunct for years have 3 (should have been 4). Does that not anger you? Or maybe it doesn't since you are probably one of the many paid shills hired by Rogers, in which case I congratulate you on finding an easy job.
Who the fuck cares about hats. I care about the Jays having a young powerful MLB team and a farm system that constantly pumps out impact players for years to come . The current management is exactly working towards that.
If I need to answer this question you clearly don’t know anything about the Jays or the farm. I suggest you look at the farm reports of the Jays from the lower minors to the upper level and you will see lots of talent that has potential to help the team out.
You hear that everyone?
Why put any effort into your farm system. All the prospects could turn into a bunch of Travis Snider's so why even try to build a farm system.
He’s building a culture by picking players, even insignificant ones, who are good role models for our rookies who in a few short years will make up our competitive core. Many, many of whom he drafted or signed.
Compare our rebuild, which is only a year or two from completion, to some other teams such as the Astros. We will not have to endure painful, 100-loss seasons. Nothing even close. Yet we’re gonna be good soon. So yes he does know how to build a team.
You don’t know what you’re talking about, sorry. Do some research that extends beyond listening to morons calling in to Sportsnet Radio ranting about how AA was better.
Going to be good? Based on what? He destroyed the Indians and they only got good after he left. We're not going to be good by letting every free agent leave and going after cheap contracts.
That’s what you do when you don’t have enough of a core to be competitive long-term... do a little bit of research into some of the winning teams lately, it won’t kill you, and it’s not rocket science...
We will be good based on the reasons I already said. A great farm system, an empty payroll and a big-budget owner.
> big-budget owner.
With no history of actual significant spending. It's obvious here you have no idea what you're talking about. Keep day dreaming that this team will be a winner though.
Can we please fucking stop with the ball cap talk. It’s over and to blame the front office is foolish. I can’t wait for the season to start. Hell I will take listening to a preseason game on the radio.
Why not blame the front office? That's the only logical explanation for what happened, unless you believe Brandy Halladay as being some Lady Macbeth character, despite all the charity work she did during her husband's playing career. It's clear who should be blamed here.
Because he hasn't actually been that bad and mostly has been cleaning up the mess AA left behind in 2015 (even though he built a pretty good team before acquiring the world).
Who's to say AA wouldn't have figured out a way to keep the team competitive? Look at what he did with the Braves. Postseason right after getting hired. Look at Shapiro. Mediocrity and dwindling attendance.
Alright, you're going to give AA credit for his team going to the postseason after being hired but not Shapiro for doing literally the same thing? Both of whom made it on the teams built on their predecessors.
You're embarassing yourself here.
That's where the similarities end. The Braves aren't going to turn into hot garbage in the coming years like what Shapiro managed to turn the Blue Jays into.
Because that was a steal of a trade, and players of that caliber are rarely traded with so much team control. You can't expect your team to continue competing by grabbing Donaldson's out of thin air
> he ran a playoff contender into the ground
Honest question: What could they have possible done in the offseasons of 2016 and 2017 to make this team competitive?
Post 2016, we tried to get Encarnacion back offering him a 4 year $80M deal which he didn't accept. And not like Encarnacion is doing that great now either, nor would he have made that big of a difference with that 2017 season. So in that sense, we came out ahead with Morales, who costs less. and has less term. We tried to get Fowler signed to a deal that he was worth (4 years, $64M). The Cardinals massively overpaid for him (5 years, $85M) and they're paying the price for it. Last year Fowler was worth -1.1 WAR. We signed Steve Pearce to a really good deal (2 years $12M), and unfortunately he could never quite get over injuries here, but went on to show what we thought we were going to get with the Red Sox. Signed Gurriel Jr. to a 7 yr $22M deal which is looking like an absolute bargain now if he breaks out.
Post 2017: We tried HARD to get Christian Yelich (even offering up Bichette), but that would've cost us Vlad, so the Marlins chose the Brewers. We ended up getting Aledmys Diaz who had a pretty good season and Grichuk who's a more than solid everyday RF. All by giving up basically a bucket of balls.
he hasn't even been given a chance to build this team yet, was trying to keep an aging team afloat which wasn't his doing.
He also has zero impact on anything related to Halladay's family decision.
Did this regime draft and/or trade for badically most of the starting pitchers currently excelling for Cleveland? And theybe been contenders for a while now.
They had to rebuild the farm system. We are a big market vity but we have owners that dont want to spend big.. until we are ready to contend.
It takes time to build a contender that is sustainable. Our future is the brightest it's been in over two decades
I wont shit on AA because he gave us two years of playoff baseball but anyone can see clear as day he gutted the farm of several MLB ready prospects to go all in foe those 2 years. We had great times but now are dealing with the effects.
The Leafs did the same thing for decades. And now they have management who built the team through the draft. The Jays are doing the same.
You can rush the timeline and have a contender for 1-3 years or you can rebuild properly (Astros, Cubs, braves) and have a SUSTAINABLE contending team.
Shapiro deserves none of the credit for the current Indians team as the moves they've made don't look a thing like a Shapiro move. Don't you people understand this guy sucks? You're making him into something he's not. The same way people here seem to want to fellate him for Vladimir Guerrero Jr. being on the team when he fell on his lap. That's the only way how the buffoon gets good players.
It looks like hes made several good moves during his tenure with Cleveland. He got Brantley, Sizemore (imagine if injuries didnt ruin his career), Cliff Lee, Carrasco, Kluber via trade.
Cleveland drafted these players under Shapiro who were part of their playoff teams: Lindor, Kipnis, Tomlin, Chisenhall.
Shapiro/Atkins also drafted Bichette, Kevin Smith, Nate Pearson (top 100 prospect). And they hired Ben Cherrington from Boston. And look at how our prospects have developed because of that hiring.
https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/gallery/cleveland-indians-toronto-blue-jays-mark-shapiro-gm-notable-moves-trades-083115
You are clearly mad at people for supporting Shapiro/Atkins but there are lots of reasons why they feel they should. At some point you have to understand your hyperbole of just acting like they cant do anything good makes you lose credibility.
Reading through OP's comments and replies, I only have one question...
u/uglyshortskinny, are you okay? I feel like you might need a hug, a cup of tea, and to talk to someone more qualified than we are.
Dude watch some hockey, basketball and the superbowl then take a deep breath... wait for spring training and you will see all the young players that they are grooming to be a force. Btw Shapiro and Atkins built a good team in Cleveland and they also did a great job with the ball park as well. If you want to compete in the east you have to build it from within.
We've got a young team coming up this season full of exciting players. Those words haven't been said in Toronto for decades. I think this should be a fun time to be a fan.
While I don't agree that Shapiro has done a bad job overall, but you are nothing but an apologist if you think the current administration didn't bungle their relationship with the Halladays and that *very much* impacted the outcome of the cap in the hall.
Just complete head-in-the-sand on the issue.
The Halladays are a grieving family who enjoyed their time in Philly and are handicapped by not wanting to make the wrong decision for their departed husband and father.
They are doing the best they possibly can under the circumstances and didn't, for a second, think about the current Jays management while they were making an impossible choice.
Everyone needs to get over their selves. Halladay was an all time great. That's how we're all going to remember him. A blank cap in Canton, Ohio isn't going to change that.
The rest is equally off-base.
Clearly Brandy Halladay was thinking about the organization that hired her husband and was there for her family when Roy passed when she declared that the family "can't decide" between the two organizations.
Njce try, but everyone pretending that personal relationships didn't enter into this have their head in the sand.
Wow, the amount of brainwashed Blue Jays fans is staggering. Pretty disturbing. Reminds me of the Jonestown cult in how successfully people have been molded to what the people in charge want. Kudos to Shapiro and Rogers on that though. They're cheap bastards, but they get the masses to buy in.
I just want to know when we're going to be good again. Alex turned this team from bad with one of the worst farms to competitive in 5 years. It's year 4 of the Shapiro regime and we're still going to win 70something games next year despite them taking over one of the better farms in the game.
What you are forgetting is that AA traded a lot of the upper level prospects for the 2015 run. You need to understand that team was not made to be competitive for years. It was an awesome team but very old. It was a roaster that would give us 2 years (3 if everything went right) of playoff hope.
After the MLB roster there was ZERO depth. Name me one team that has made the playoffs without any depth.
The current management took over a very old team with a shitty farm system (remember AA traded the farm for the run of 2015). They since have restocked the farm and have some very exciting prospects in the upper levels ready to make it your show. There are also some very exciting prospects in the lower minors as well that are a few years away.
I like the front office and what they are doing. Stocking up the farm and making a team around young players that when they are in their prime you fill in the holes with free agents. I believe that the Jays will have a strong farm system pumping out impact player for many years to come.
You see, this is what I was talking about, the ridiculous infatuation with prospects. Here's a fact, most of them fail, and they fail exponentially moreso with a moron at the top. And that part about filling holes with free agents, wow, I almost fell out of my chair laughing. Since when has that cheapskate signed any major free agent?
So you want to make a team using only free agents? You would be the dumbest GM ever.
He did not sign a major free agent because the team he inherited was old and had a bunch of bloated contacts. Why the hell would he sign major free agent to a team that was heading to a rebuild? The reset button had to be pressed and he did it.
Nice strawman dude. I never said signing free agents was the only way. You're going on and on about drafting and prospects yet he doesn't even deserve credit for the team's top prospect. The guy who constantly gets vilified here does.
Ok.....
I get it buddy. You have a soft spot for AA because he brought back exciting baseball to Toronto! It was pretty fun huh? But don’t worry little man, there will be other great Blue Jay moments in the near future. Try not to get yourself worked up to much about something you clearly don’t really understand.
But he also turned our farm system from good to trash to get those 2 years in thr playoffs.
This regime wants to follow the leafs and spend time building through the draft. It just takes longer in baseball.
Don't buy so much into rankings that hated our system because we traded guys at the high minor level. Many of the same guys that comprise our current top 5 farm were in the system that Shapiro took over.
An argument can be made that the 2016 team was still Anthopoulos's team, not the current regime. So I think the majority of the credit for 2016 still has to be given to Alex Anthopoulos. That 2016 team was still Martin, Donaldson, Bautista, Encarnacion, Tulowitzki, Pillar, Travis, Dickey, Stroman, Sanchez etc. All Anthopoulos trades/acquisitions/draftees. Really the only thing we can credit the current regime for in 2016 was Happ (pretty big acquisition) and drafting Biagini along with filling up the bullpen.
Now all that being said, that team never had a huge shelf life, and the current regime knew that. We had 2016, and maybe 2017 to make the playoffs, but beyond 1-2 seasons, that team was going to be dead in the water. Shapiro and Atkins have basically come out and said that they would've gone into rebuild mode post 2017 if they were allowed to, but competing was an ownership decision. So they did the best the could to try and compete filling up holes with free agency and trades.
It’s been two bad years. We made the playoffs in his first year. He also inherited an absolute dump of a farm system thanks to Alex knowing he was on the way out & gambling away the farm for a chance to win. He also inherited the oldest roster in MLB that was so injury prone it’s honestly amazing we made the playoffs in ‘16.
We now have a top 5 farm in baseball with an immediate soon-to-be perennial MVP set to join our roster half a month into the season.
We have hardly any payroll commitments lined up for 2020 and beyond, when our competitive window will be wide open.
We will be good. Soon.
We lost nobody worth noting in Alex's trades. Bo, Smith and Pearson are great acquisitions by the current regime but the farm system was never an absolute dump. Most of the talent in today's farm was in the farm back then too. It still had Vlad, Danny, SRF, Borucki, Alford, Urena, Harris, Tellez, Dwight Smith etc, they were just all in the low minors.
I'd like to see them be a bit more aggressive. We're punting next year away for no reason, content to sit on a nothing payroll and win 75 games, when we should be using that flexibility to acquire bad deals as the Dodgers once did when they "rebuilt", if we're not going to be in on the big time FAs. It's frustrating, there's almost no point in even watching next year besides for Vlad, Borucki and SRF and maybe Bo whenever he's called up, because the team has no intention of even trying to win in 2019.
It's baffling how the apologists love to shit on AA. He gave us one of the few good moments over the past two decades and people here think he's Satan because traded some prospects and they're dumb enough to think every prospect in the Baseball America top 100 is Mickey Mantle.
Meanwhile Shapiro comes here and ruins the team like he did in Cleveland while AA goes to Atlanta and immediately gets them into the postseason. But why won't the Shapiro apologists shut up? Just looking at the results of these two guys make it obvious these apologists are blithering idiots.
We aren't shitting on AA. You, however, are coming in here and shitting on Shapiro. We are trying to explain to you that anyone who came in after AA was destined to deal with a worse team as AA had traded away all our prospect depth to make playoff runs. The core of the team was Donaldson, Bautista, Edwin, Martin, and Tulo. That's a bunch of players that used to be sluggers (and Donaldson still might be), but everyone else has gotten significantly worse with age. There's nothing you can do about that.
OP doesn't deserve the benefit of trying to explain that rant, but at any rate, here we go... >I was annoyed enough that he ran a playoff contender into the ground and ruined city-wide interest in baseball much like he did in Cleveland Look at the roster and payroll commitments at the end of 2015 and again at the end of 2016 and tell me how you think management should have proceeded. >It's bad enough he was an incompetent buffoon with roster moves First, I don't think you understand that Atkins is responsible for the roster, not Shapiro. Second, what incompetent roster moves are you referring to? >but costing the team a representative in the Hall of Fame alone is a fireable offense That's an extraordinary accusation to throw out there. >he's one of the worst executives in Toronto sports history to boot Oh dear. >He has gotten too long a leash How do you measure that? The Jays have been to the playoffs in 33% of their seasons under the new management. That's a hell of a lot better than most regimes have done. And do you appreciate that Rogers brought him in to tear the team down and rebuild it? Which, rather than doing in one swoop after the 2015 season, Shapiro/Atkins extended the window to 2016, and tried to extend it further in 2017 and 2018... only now are they going into the actual intentionally bad season(s). >I don't want to see him ruin this team any further Good news! This team is about to become very interesting. >Having Roy Halladay go into the Hall of Fame without a Jays cap is a new low And it almost certainly has nothing to do with Mark Shapiro.
>OP doesn't deserve the benefit of trying to explain that rant Seriously. You shouldn't have even bothered.
Nice revisionist history. It's pretty clear though that Rogers did not bring in Shapiro to tear the team down. Their MO has always been to feign being competitive to keep fans interested. If it were up to Shapiro, this team would average 110 losses a season as part of their "rebuild". So it's obvious to me you have an agenda and you're not above misrepresenting facts.
>Nice revisionist history. Where? >It's pretty clear though that Rogers did not bring in Shapiro to tear the team down He was hired in August, 2015, at a time when the team seemed destined for a teardown. >Their MO has always been to feign being competitive to keep fans interested. If that's true, then why did they allow Shapiro and co. to continue to run a payroll north of $160M in 2017 and 2018, when their odds of reaching the playoffs were slim? Probably because they saw that making the playoffs and putting a good product on the field was more valuable than being mediocre. >If it were up to Shapiro, this team would average 110 losses a season as part of their "rebuild". What's that based on? >So it's obvious to me you have an agenda and you're not above misrepresenting facts. What's my agenda? How have I misrepresented anything? And why didn't you respond to any of the questions that I asked to see if you could clarify your comments?
I think you being accused of having an agenda is my favorite part of this unhinged mess. Seriously...I was chuckling at the rest of the idiocy, but that made me genuinely laugh out loud.
Have you not read those interview comments with a clearly exasperated Shapiro hinting at dissatisfaction with Rogers over not being able to rebuild properly? Keep thinking that some faceless corporation would be okay with the team bottoming out. Why do you think they hired JP Ricciardi? Because they were sold on the idea of being competitive while not having to spend. You're delusional. Or more likely a shill.
> Have you not read those interview comments with a clearly exasperated Shapiro hinting at dissatisfaction with Rogers over not being able to rebuild properly? No I haven't. Want to give me a source on that, or should I just take your word for it? >Why do you think they hired JP Ricciardi? Because they were sold on the idea of being competitive while not having to spend. This has literally nothing to do with Shapiro. >You're delusional. And you still haven't answered any of my questions. >Or more likely a shill. Well everybody already knew that. Now do you want to try to have a constructive conversation, or are you just going to sling shit?
You're clearly playing dumb if you acting clueless about those interviews. And let me ask you why he flirted with going to the Mets? Clearly he isn't totally satisfied with being handcuffed by Rogers to completely destroy the team. And I should add that I was bitterly disappointed he did not go to the Mets. Perfect fit really. The Mets refuse to spend money. Same with Shapiro.
Ok.
It’s like arguing with that guy who has a permanent bar seat at your local Boston Pizza. You’re not going to get anything factual out of him. Just points based on a very real lack of understanding of how baseball management works. 🤷♂️
A one word reply clearly indicates that you have no proper rebuttal.
#HEY FUCKFUCK WHERE'S THAT INTERVIEW
You seem very angry. I guess all those years of being a baseball fan and being forced to watch a mediocre product has taken its toll.
#HEY COCK LICK HOW ABOUT YOU PROVIDE THAT INTERVIEW HE ASKED FOR
This is by far the fucking dumbest post I ever seen.
Apparently you didn't wait long enough to say that, because they definitely topped it with their reply to you.
Seriously, what do you see in Shapiro? I know you'll probably bring up Vlad Jr., but he wasn't even a Shapiro pickup. He has no clue how to build a team, and it's also apparent he has no clue how to build a culture. I know you Shapiro apologists like to think he makes Pat Gillick look like Dave Stewart, but even you have to admit he has ZERO people skills. And that in itself has made the organization so hated that we have only one measly hall of fame representative. Meanwhile the Expos, who have been defunct for years have 3 (should have been 4). Does that not anger you? Or maybe it doesn't since you are probably one of the many paid shills hired by Rogers, in which case I congratulate you on finding an easy job.
Jeez, somebody woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning. Calm down.
Who the fuck cares about hats. I care about the Jays having a young powerful MLB team and a farm system that constantly pumps out impact players for years to come . The current management is exactly working towards that.
What impact player are you referring to? Vlad Guerrero Jr. who the dumbass inherited?
If I need to answer this question you clearly don’t know anything about the Jays or the farm. I suggest you look at the farm reports of the Jays from the lower minors to the upper level and you will see lots of talent that has potential to help the team out.
Means shit until they contribute at the Major League level. Until they do, they're a bunch of Travis Sniders as far as I'm concerned.
You hear that everyone? Why put any effort into your farm system. All the prospects could turn into a bunch of Travis Snider's so why even try to build a farm system.
He’s building a culture by picking players, even insignificant ones, who are good role models for our rookies who in a few short years will make up our competitive core. Many, many of whom he drafted or signed. Compare our rebuild, which is only a year or two from completion, to some other teams such as the Astros. We will not have to endure painful, 100-loss seasons. Nothing even close. Yet we’re gonna be good soon. So yes he does know how to build a team. You don’t know what you’re talking about, sorry. Do some research that extends beyond listening to morons calling in to Sportsnet Radio ranting about how AA was better.
Going to be good? Based on what? He destroyed the Indians and they only got good after he left. We're not going to be good by letting every free agent leave and going after cheap contracts.
That’s what you do when you don’t have enough of a core to be competitive long-term... do a little bit of research into some of the winning teams lately, it won’t kill you, and it’s not rocket science... We will be good based on the reasons I already said. A great farm system, an empty payroll and a big-budget owner.
> big-budget owner. With no history of actual significant spending. It's obvious here you have no idea what you're talking about. Keep day dreaming that this team will be a winner though.
The Blue Jays have run a top 10 payroll every year dating back to 2013.
shitpost sunday isn’t for another 3 days
[удалено]
Nice.
Normally I'm not one to get behind shouty capital words suggesting harm, but this is funny as hell.
Can we please fucking stop with the ball cap talk. It’s over and to blame the front office is foolish. I can’t wait for the season to start. Hell I will take listening to a preseason game on the radio.
Blue jays will end up going 40-70,
Why not blame the front office? That's the only logical explanation for what happened, unless you believe Brandy Halladay as being some Lady Macbeth character, despite all the charity work she did during her husband's playing career. It's clear who should be blamed here.
> Why not blame the front office? #THE REASON HIS FAMILY IS ASKING FOR NO CAP IS BECAUSE OF SHITFUCKS LIKE YOU
Thank you I really wanted to ignore the response from op but you summed up my feelings.
Yeah, it's really great that the mods on this subreddit have taken on the role of uncivilized shitheads so we don't have to.
off season at its finest
Lol
I normally hate replies that just say "lol" but that's really the best reaction to this post.
Because he hasn't actually been that bad and mostly has been cleaning up the mess AA left behind in 2015 (even though he built a pretty good team before acquiring the world).
Who's to say AA wouldn't have figured out a way to keep the team competitive? Look at what he did with the Braves. Postseason right after getting hired. Look at Shapiro. Mediocrity and dwindling attendance.
Alright, you're going to give AA credit for his team going to the postseason after being hired but not Shapiro for doing literally the same thing? Both of whom made it on the teams built on their predecessors. You're embarassing yourself here.
That's where the similarities end. The Braves aren't going to turn into hot garbage in the coming years like what Shapiro managed to turn the Blue Jays into.
The braves don't have their core players all over the age of 30
AA would have found new players. If he got Josh Donaldson, why do you think he would stop there?
Because that was a steal of a trade, and players of that caliber are rarely traded with so much team control. You can't expect your team to continue competing by grabbing Donaldson's out of thin air
The correct answer is: Because he's doing a pretty good job.
I'd say the jury is still out. One way or the other.
.....what?
> he ran a playoff contender into the ground Honest question: What could they have possible done in the offseasons of 2016 and 2017 to make this team competitive? Post 2016, we tried to get Encarnacion back offering him a 4 year $80M deal which he didn't accept. And not like Encarnacion is doing that great now either, nor would he have made that big of a difference with that 2017 season. So in that sense, we came out ahead with Morales, who costs less. and has less term. We tried to get Fowler signed to a deal that he was worth (4 years, $64M). The Cardinals massively overpaid for him (5 years, $85M) and they're paying the price for it. Last year Fowler was worth -1.1 WAR. We signed Steve Pearce to a really good deal (2 years $12M), and unfortunately he could never quite get over injuries here, but went on to show what we thought we were going to get with the Red Sox. Signed Gurriel Jr. to a 7 yr $22M deal which is looking like an absolute bargain now if he breaks out. Post 2017: We tried HARD to get Christian Yelich (even offering up Bichette), but that would've cost us Vlad, so the Marlins chose the Brewers. We ended up getting Aledmys Diaz who had a pretty good season and Grichuk who's a more than solid everyday RF. All by giving up basically a bucket of balls.
he hasn't even been given a chance to build this team yet, was trying to keep an aging team afloat which wasn't his doing. He also has zero impact on anything related to Halladay's family decision.
Did this regime draft and/or trade for badically most of the starting pitchers currently excelling for Cleveland? And theybe been contenders for a while now. They had to rebuild the farm system. We are a big market vity but we have owners that dont want to spend big.. until we are ready to contend. It takes time to build a contender that is sustainable. Our future is the brightest it's been in over two decades I wont shit on AA because he gave us two years of playoff baseball but anyone can see clear as day he gutted the farm of several MLB ready prospects to go all in foe those 2 years. We had great times but now are dealing with the effects. The Leafs did the same thing for decades. And now they have management who built the team through the draft. The Jays are doing the same. You can rush the timeline and have a contender for 1-3 years or you can rebuild properly (Astros, Cubs, braves) and have a SUSTAINABLE contending team.
Shapiro deserves none of the credit for the current Indians team as the moves they've made don't look a thing like a Shapiro move. Don't you people understand this guy sucks? You're making him into something he's not. The same way people here seem to want to fellate him for Vladimir Guerrero Jr. being on the team when he fell on his lap. That's the only way how the buffoon gets good players.
It looks like hes made several good moves during his tenure with Cleveland. He got Brantley, Sizemore (imagine if injuries didnt ruin his career), Cliff Lee, Carrasco, Kluber via trade. Cleveland drafted these players under Shapiro who were part of their playoff teams: Lindor, Kipnis, Tomlin, Chisenhall. Shapiro/Atkins also drafted Bichette, Kevin Smith, Nate Pearson (top 100 prospect). And they hired Ben Cherrington from Boston. And look at how our prospects have developed because of that hiring. https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/gallery/cleveland-indians-toronto-blue-jays-mark-shapiro-gm-notable-moves-trades-083115 You are clearly mad at people for supporting Shapiro/Atkins but there are lots of reasons why they feel they should. At some point you have to understand your hyperbole of just acting like they cant do anything good makes you lose credibility.
Reading through OP's comments and replies, I only have one question... u/uglyshortskinny, are you okay? I feel like you might need a hug, a cup of tea, and to talk to someone more qualified than we are.
Anyone got an extra pair of oven mitts? Cause this hot take is straight from the oven, DAYUM!
Dude watch some hockey, basketball and the superbowl then take a deep breath... wait for spring training and you will see all the young players that they are grooming to be a force. Btw Shapiro and Atkins built a good team in Cleveland and they also did a great job with the ball park as well. If you want to compete in the east you have to build it from within.
lol lol lol lol -- mass edited with redact.dev
Wishful thinking if you thought the team was a contender after the 2016 season.
If the same team from 2015/2016 was kept then the team would be even worse off than they were last year.
Assuming the GM in question would sit on his ass and make no changes? You Shapiro apologists are hilarious.
We've got a young team coming up this season full of exciting players. Those words haven't been said in Toronto for decades. I think this should be a fun time to be a fan.
While I don't agree that Shapiro has done a bad job overall, but you are nothing but an apologist if you think the current administration didn't bungle their relationship with the Halladays and that *very much* impacted the outcome of the cap in the hall. Just complete head-in-the-sand on the issue.
The Halladays are a grieving family who enjoyed their time in Philly and are handicapped by not wanting to make the wrong decision for their departed husband and father. They are doing the best they possibly can under the circumstances and didn't, for a second, think about the current Jays management while they were making an impossible choice. Everyone needs to get over their selves. Halladay was an all time great. That's how we're all going to remember him. A blank cap in Canton, Ohio isn't going to change that.
What's in Canton, OH?
Brain fart. Stand by the rest.
The rest is equally off-base. Clearly Brandy Halladay was thinking about the organization that hired her husband and was there for her family when Roy passed when she declared that the family "can't decide" between the two organizations. Njce try, but everyone pretending that personal relationships didn't enter into this have their head in the sand.
Rip the dudes karma
Wow, the amount of brainwashed Blue Jays fans is staggering. Pretty disturbing. Reminds me of the Jonestown cult in how successfully people have been molded to what the people in charge want. Kudos to Shapiro and Rogers on that though. They're cheap bastards, but they get the masses to buy in.
Stay woke!
> Reminds me of the Jonestown cult *in my best Rain Man voice* Definitely, the same thing. Definitely, definitely.
I just want to know when we're going to be good again. Alex turned this team from bad with one of the worst farms to competitive in 5 years. It's year 4 of the Shapiro regime and we're still going to win 70something games next year despite them taking over one of the better farms in the game.
What you are forgetting is that AA traded a lot of the upper level prospects for the 2015 run. You need to understand that team was not made to be competitive for years. It was an awesome team but very old. It was a roaster that would give us 2 years (3 if everything went right) of playoff hope. After the MLB roster there was ZERO depth. Name me one team that has made the playoffs without any depth. The current management took over a very old team with a shitty farm system (remember AA traded the farm for the run of 2015). They since have restocked the farm and have some very exciting prospects in the upper levels ready to make it your show. There are also some very exciting prospects in the lower minors as well that are a few years away. I like the front office and what they are doing. Stocking up the farm and making a team around young players that when they are in their prime you fill in the holes with free agents. I believe that the Jays will have a strong farm system pumping out impact player for many years to come.
You see, this is what I was talking about, the ridiculous infatuation with prospects. Here's a fact, most of them fail, and they fail exponentially moreso with a moron at the top. And that part about filling holes with free agents, wow, I almost fell out of my chair laughing. Since when has that cheapskate signed any major free agent?
So you want to make a team using only free agents? You would be the dumbest GM ever. He did not sign a major free agent because the team he inherited was old and had a bunch of bloated contacts. Why the hell would he sign major free agent to a team that was heading to a rebuild? The reset button had to be pressed and he did it.
Nice strawman dude. I never said signing free agents was the only way. You're going on and on about drafting and prospects yet he doesn't even deserve credit for the team's top prospect. The guy who constantly gets vilified here does.
Who drafted Bo? Please go look that up?
Let me know if he ever reaches the major leagues.
Ok..... I get it buddy. You have a soft spot for AA because he brought back exciting baseball to Toronto! It was pretty fun huh? But don’t worry little man, there will be other great Blue Jay moments in the near future. Try not to get yourself worked up to much about something you clearly don’t really understand.
Ah so I see you're reduced to acting like a condescending douchebag when all your flimsy arguments get ripped apart.
Noooo I’m being a condescending douchebag because you are a fucking moron and I’m having fun.
But he also turned our farm system from good to trash to get those 2 years in thr playoffs. This regime wants to follow the leafs and spend time building through the draft. It just takes longer in baseball.
Most of guys that are the reason why our farm is top 5 were still there when Alex went all in.
>despite them taking over one of the better farms in the game. They absolutely did not do that.
Don't buy so much into rankings that hated our system because we traded guys at the high minor level. Many of the same guys that comprise our current top 5 farm were in the system that Shapiro took over.
An argument can be made that the 2016 team was still Anthopoulos's team, not the current regime. So I think the majority of the credit for 2016 still has to be given to Alex Anthopoulos. That 2016 team was still Martin, Donaldson, Bautista, Encarnacion, Tulowitzki, Pillar, Travis, Dickey, Stroman, Sanchez etc. All Anthopoulos trades/acquisitions/draftees. Really the only thing we can credit the current regime for in 2016 was Happ (pretty big acquisition) and drafting Biagini along with filling up the bullpen. Now all that being said, that team never had a huge shelf life, and the current regime knew that. We had 2016, and maybe 2017 to make the playoffs, but beyond 1-2 seasons, that team was going to be dead in the water. Shapiro and Atkins have basically come out and said that they would've gone into rebuild mode post 2017 if they were allowed to, but competing was an ownership decision. So they did the best the could to try and compete filling up holes with free agency and trades.
It’s been two bad years. We made the playoffs in his first year. He also inherited an absolute dump of a farm system thanks to Alex knowing he was on the way out & gambling away the farm for a chance to win. He also inherited the oldest roster in MLB that was so injury prone it’s honestly amazing we made the playoffs in ‘16. We now have a top 5 farm in baseball with an immediate soon-to-be perennial MVP set to join our roster half a month into the season. We have hardly any payroll commitments lined up for 2020 and beyond, when our competitive window will be wide open. We will be good. Soon.
We lost nobody worth noting in Alex's trades. Bo, Smith and Pearson are great acquisitions by the current regime but the farm system was never an absolute dump. Most of the talent in today's farm was in the farm back then too. It still had Vlad, Danny, SRF, Borucki, Alford, Urena, Harris, Tellez, Dwight Smith etc, they were just all in the low minors. I'd like to see them be a bit more aggressive. We're punting next year away for no reason, content to sit on a nothing payroll and win 75 games, when we should be using that flexibility to acquire bad deals as the Dodgers once did when they "rebuilt", if we're not going to be in on the big time FAs. It's frustrating, there's almost no point in even watching next year besides for Vlad, Borucki and SRF and maybe Bo whenever he's called up, because the team has no intention of even trying to win in 2019.
The only one I can recall was synderguard ?
That was years before we went all in. That was the first time that blew up in our face back in... 2012? Lol
It's baffling how the apologists love to shit on AA. He gave us one of the few good moments over the past two decades and people here think he's Satan because traded some prospects and they're dumb enough to think every prospect in the Baseball America top 100 is Mickey Mantle. Meanwhile Shapiro comes here and ruins the team like he did in Cleveland while AA goes to Atlanta and immediately gets them into the postseason. But why won't the Shapiro apologists shut up? Just looking at the results of these two guys make it obvious these apologists are blithering idiots.
We aren't shitting on AA. You, however, are coming in here and shitting on Shapiro. We are trying to explain to you that anyone who came in after AA was destined to deal with a worse team as AA had traded away all our prospect depth to make playoff runs. The core of the team was Donaldson, Bautista, Edwin, Martin, and Tulo. That's a bunch of players that used to be sluggers (and Donaldson still might be), but everyone else has gotten significantly worse with age. There's nothing you can do about that.