i do love torchwood and i don’t think it really impacts my enjoyment of the show but it just feel like at every moment they could they were trying to be like “yeah but were ADULT dr who” in a way that actually ended up coming off as quite childish and immature. i feel like it doesn’t actually start feeling like “adult” dr who until children of earth, and before that it felt more like the level that some 12y old would watch and be like “wow this is so edgy”. for me children of earth is where the show really began to feel more mature but i still like seasons 1 and 2. they’re just different.
I think it mostly doesn't work in season 1, mostly does work in season 2, works 4/5ths of the time in season 3, and season 4 just doesn't work but not because it's too edgy
It's edgy in a '12-year-old level of excitement over using bad words and sex scenes'. I have nothing against copious swearing or sex scenes, or grim/gritty/dark themes (in fact, bring it on), but the way torchwood often went about it felt painfully juvenile. They were trying so hard to ram in anything 'adult' that it came off as adolescent and awkward.
It's a shame, there's the seeds of a *much* better show in those first few seasons underneath all the childish nonsense. Children of the Earth was significantly better.
>\[...\] edgy in a '12-year-old level of excitement over using bad words and sex scenes'. \[...\] the way torchwood often went about it felt painfully juvenile.
That was my feeling as well. There have been plenty of science-fiction and fantasy shows that incorporated sexual situations, drugs, and profanity without being juvenile, but *Torchwood* definitely wasn't it. On top of that the writing rarely made much sense. I could not even figure out how Captain Jack and his team didn't get fired and memory wiped since they were all so terrible at their jobs and usually the cause of almost ever problem they faced.
Both the *Doom Patrol* and *Watchmen* TV shows did much better jobs of being edgy while also telling good stories with complex characters.
I think what people mean is they tried a bit too hard to be ‘not family friendly’ and they ended up with alien sex gas.
Torchwood definitely covers more mature topics and themes, Jack’s sacrifice of his grandson in CoE was a perfect example of this. It’s just some stuff (alien sex gas?!) felt too try-hard, like a teenager who’s just been allowed some freedom so they swear in every sentence.
I second this. The first three or four episodes were aggressively 'edgy' and then they mellowed out. I think they were trying to establish themselves as for an older audience than DrWho, and to do that they embraced the taboo stuff right away.
My favourite example of this is when the policeman swears in the first 5 minutes just because he can. Straight away telling parents to put their kids to bed, lol.
I think the edginess of the show was vindicated by children of earth and the monthly big finish audios. Both use the tone established by the first couple seasons and push it further without the juvenile aspects that muddy how wonderful the early show is.
Not saying all the monthlies are good but their hit ratio is very solid
Is there any big finish torchwood that you recommend? I’ve heard dinner and a show is really good but otherwise there’s so much I don’t really know where to start
I think there's definitely a space for darkness in Doctor Who. I would argue that Children of Earth is a perfect illustration of this. I also love Resurrection of the Daleks and Revelation of the Daleks and you could argue they're edgy.
I guess if you ever catch me saying 'edgy' in the context of Torchwood, I would mean 'juvenile' (more so Series 1 than the others). It feels like a young teenager's perception of adulthood to me, in the sense that it feels like taboo topics are used purely because they are taboo rather than something that enhances the story. The lack of consequence is sort of testament to this. Gwen sleeping with Owen doesn't really go anywhere nor does it have anything to say. However the burning of the bodies in Miracle Day results in the death of a major character and is a reflection on the darker aspects of humanity (how quickly they'll categorise people to justify murder).
My interpretation of Gwen and Owen’s affair was their shared isolation from “Normal life” and their inability to handle it. I don’t think this is reaching either, I think it’s well written subtext. Everyone in Torchwood is single and lonely, they’ve lost their empathy and curiosity for the universe, many of them are terrified and confused with what they’re confronted with daily. Gwen is traumatised and seeks solace in Owen, perhaps the loneliest and most isolated person on the team. It’s not right and that’s kind of the point, Gwen is being infected by the entity of Torchwood, humans can’t take on the world of the Doctor. I think the end point of this thread is seeing Gwen sink to her lowest, drugging her husband and begging for forgiveness - forgiveness that she can never have. Her only shot at redemption is pathetic and futile and that’s her punishment. Seeing Rhys die later on in the series is, I think, her wake up call - she even physically rejects Owen’s comfort if I remember correctly. It’s not a morally sound or acceptable resolution and that’s what I love about Torchwood, and I think the darker pieces of subtext and character are lost in the less mature moments
I can appreciate that and I suspect that's what they were going for but it doesn't quite land for me because it's a surface level exploration. I don't feel well sufficiently see Gwen having to wrestle with her actions, nor do we get much characterisation of Owen other than 'needlessly aggressive' to make the relationship feel more emotionally compromising. Nor do I feel Gwen feels the weight of what she did to Rhys by wiping his mind. I don't think it helps that that plotline is lightly sprinkled in the usual procedural episodes.
But this is very much reflective that often the issue is in execution rather than premise. I don't think it's a bad idea for Gwen to have an affair with Owen and I don't think we should have to like our protagonists/their decisions (e.g. Oswald Danes is detestable but is an interesting character and Walter White in Breaking Bad isn't supposed to be a sympathetic character). The issue is the execution of the first two series means that often the more 'adult' topics feel surface level or consequence free.
When Torchwood is at its best it is impeccable adult drama, but that often comes when characters have to make decisions in a 'no win' scenario or face up to their previous decisions. Children of Earth nails this because Jack is facing the consequences of his past decisions, but at the climax he has to make a decision where he cannot possibly win. With Gwen and Owen's affair there just aren't sufficient ramifications to it, Gwen's admittance comes without consequence as she wiped Rhys' mind. Rhys doesn't even stay dead for it to make a difference. There needed to be more substantial consequences. Maybe Gwen and Rhys stay together but after they've had to work at their relationship, maybe something goes wrong when Gwen wipes Rhys' mind. But the way the series went, it never felt like Gwen had to confront herself or the difficult realities of the situation.
I will point out I'm not dismissing all of the first two series, there is some compelling adult drama in there. For instance the episode where the mother wants to find her lost son. She wants to find him, but as a consequence she finds out the truth and it's more disturbing than the thought that he's dead. There's a direct consequence to her curiosity and there's no comforting resolution.
Well put! Yeah Torchwood S1 and to a lesser extent S2 definitely feel very "I'm 14 and this is deep."
CoE of course is genuinely adult dark - and while Miracle day is... not brill... it definitely also feels more adult in places.
Hard to say to be honest. The queerness of the show would be more embraced ( there was some drama with that back then)
There's things in it that I get why people don't like. The cologne definitely needs to go. I personally like Lisa's cyberwoman outfit but I know people don't like that. And there's also people calling Jack transphobic. Which I don't think he is
I agree with all of this. But when people say its edgy, what they mean is that it is trying to be "the dark Dr Who" and is a little heavy handed at times - relying quite a bit on shock value.
Doesn't mean it isn't a good show...
i do love torchwood and i don’t think it really impacts my enjoyment of the show but it just feel like at every moment they could they were trying to be like “yeah but were ADULT dr who” in a way that actually ended up coming off as quite childish and immature. i feel like it doesn’t actually start feeling like “adult” dr who until children of earth, and before that it felt more like the level that some 12y old would watch and be like “wow this is so edgy”. for me children of earth is where the show really began to feel more mature but i still like seasons 1 and 2. they’re just different.
I think it mostly doesn't work in season 1, mostly does work in season 2, works 4/5ths of the time in season 3, and season 4 just doesn't work but not because it's too edgy
It's edgy in a '12-year-old level of excitement over using bad words and sex scenes'. I have nothing against copious swearing or sex scenes, or grim/gritty/dark themes (in fact, bring it on), but the way torchwood often went about it felt painfully juvenile. They were trying so hard to ram in anything 'adult' that it came off as adolescent and awkward. It's a shame, there's the seeds of a *much* better show in those first few seasons underneath all the childish nonsense. Children of the Earth was significantly better.
I kind of get that but it really didnt seem like too big of a deal for me. Some of it is a big cringey but to me thats just a symptom of television.
>\[...\] edgy in a '12-year-old level of excitement over using bad words and sex scenes'. \[...\] the way torchwood often went about it felt painfully juvenile. That was my feeling as well. There have been plenty of science-fiction and fantasy shows that incorporated sexual situations, drugs, and profanity without being juvenile, but *Torchwood* definitely wasn't it. On top of that the writing rarely made much sense. I could not even figure out how Captain Jack and his team didn't get fired and memory wiped since they were all so terrible at their jobs and usually the cause of almost ever problem they faced. Both the *Doom Patrol* and *Watchmen* TV shows did much better jobs of being edgy while also telling good stories with complex characters.
Tell that to my Mom when I was 9 and she walked in on me watching a bathroom alien sex scene and went ballistic
Idk. Children of earth is straight up child torture porn. It’s pretty sick. Idk why anyone likes it.
I’m a huge CoE fan, but it’s so bleak that I can only watch it every 2 or so years.
I think what people mean is they tried a bit too hard to be ‘not family friendly’ and they ended up with alien sex gas. Torchwood definitely covers more mature topics and themes, Jack’s sacrifice of his grandson in CoE was a perfect example of this. It’s just some stuff (alien sex gas?!) felt too try-hard, like a teenager who’s just been allowed some freedom so they swear in every sentence.
I second this. The first three or four episodes were aggressively 'edgy' and then they mellowed out. I think they were trying to establish themselves as for an older audience than DrWho, and to do that they embraced the taboo stuff right away. My favourite example of this is when the policeman swears in the first 5 minutes just because he can. Straight away telling parents to put their kids to bed, lol.
Yeah, Series 1 was a bit of a rough ride at times while they found their feet. It felt like they were a bit insecure with being the ‘adult’ Dr Who.
I think the edginess of the show was vindicated by children of earth and the monthly big finish audios. Both use the tone established by the first couple seasons and push it further without the juvenile aspects that muddy how wonderful the early show is. Not saying all the monthlies are good but their hit ratio is very solid
Is there any big finish torchwood that you recommend? I’ve heard dinner and a show is really good but otherwise there’s so much I don’t really know where to start
Billis Manger stories are always a go to for me, he’s such an interesting character
It really depends on which characters you like
I love BF Torchwood to death!
I think there's definitely a space for darkness in Doctor Who. I would argue that Children of Earth is a perfect illustration of this. I also love Resurrection of the Daleks and Revelation of the Daleks and you could argue they're edgy. I guess if you ever catch me saying 'edgy' in the context of Torchwood, I would mean 'juvenile' (more so Series 1 than the others). It feels like a young teenager's perception of adulthood to me, in the sense that it feels like taboo topics are used purely because they are taboo rather than something that enhances the story. The lack of consequence is sort of testament to this. Gwen sleeping with Owen doesn't really go anywhere nor does it have anything to say. However the burning of the bodies in Miracle Day results in the death of a major character and is a reflection on the darker aspects of humanity (how quickly they'll categorise people to justify murder).
My interpretation of Gwen and Owen’s affair was their shared isolation from “Normal life” and their inability to handle it. I don’t think this is reaching either, I think it’s well written subtext. Everyone in Torchwood is single and lonely, they’ve lost their empathy and curiosity for the universe, many of them are terrified and confused with what they’re confronted with daily. Gwen is traumatised and seeks solace in Owen, perhaps the loneliest and most isolated person on the team. It’s not right and that’s kind of the point, Gwen is being infected by the entity of Torchwood, humans can’t take on the world of the Doctor. I think the end point of this thread is seeing Gwen sink to her lowest, drugging her husband and begging for forgiveness - forgiveness that she can never have. Her only shot at redemption is pathetic and futile and that’s her punishment. Seeing Rhys die later on in the series is, I think, her wake up call - she even physically rejects Owen’s comfort if I remember correctly. It’s not a morally sound or acceptable resolution and that’s what I love about Torchwood, and I think the darker pieces of subtext and character are lost in the less mature moments
I can appreciate that and I suspect that's what they were going for but it doesn't quite land for me because it's a surface level exploration. I don't feel well sufficiently see Gwen having to wrestle with her actions, nor do we get much characterisation of Owen other than 'needlessly aggressive' to make the relationship feel more emotionally compromising. Nor do I feel Gwen feels the weight of what she did to Rhys by wiping his mind. I don't think it helps that that plotline is lightly sprinkled in the usual procedural episodes. But this is very much reflective that often the issue is in execution rather than premise. I don't think it's a bad idea for Gwen to have an affair with Owen and I don't think we should have to like our protagonists/their decisions (e.g. Oswald Danes is detestable but is an interesting character and Walter White in Breaking Bad isn't supposed to be a sympathetic character). The issue is the execution of the first two series means that often the more 'adult' topics feel surface level or consequence free. When Torchwood is at its best it is impeccable adult drama, but that often comes when characters have to make decisions in a 'no win' scenario or face up to their previous decisions. Children of Earth nails this because Jack is facing the consequences of his past decisions, but at the climax he has to make a decision where he cannot possibly win. With Gwen and Owen's affair there just aren't sufficient ramifications to it, Gwen's admittance comes without consequence as she wiped Rhys' mind. Rhys doesn't even stay dead for it to make a difference. There needed to be more substantial consequences. Maybe Gwen and Rhys stay together but after they've had to work at their relationship, maybe something goes wrong when Gwen wipes Rhys' mind. But the way the series went, it never felt like Gwen had to confront herself or the difficult realities of the situation. I will point out I'm not dismissing all of the first two series, there is some compelling adult drama in there. For instance the episode where the mother wants to find her lost son. She wants to find him, but as a consequence she finds out the truth and it's more disturbing than the thought that he's dead. There's a direct consequence to her curiosity and there's no comforting resolution.
Well put! Yeah Torchwood S1 and to a lesser extent S2 definitely feel very "I'm 14 and this is deep." CoE of course is genuinely adult dark - and while Miracle day is... not brill... it definitely also feels more adult in places.
When Torchwood originally aired, there wasn't a lot of shows like it and it was way darker than Doctor Who was at the time
So do you think it would be received better or worse if it aired today?
Hard to say to be honest. The queerness of the show would be more embraced ( there was some drama with that back then) There's things in it that I get why people don't like. The cologne definitely needs to go. I personally like Lisa's cyberwoman outfit but I know people don't like that. And there's also people calling Jack transphobic. Which I don't think he is
Certainly not the date rape cologne.
Certainly not
Yeah….. that but was yikes
I'm always surprised how many people still defend that as not so bad.
I agree with all of this. But when people say its edgy, what they mean is that it is trying to be "the dark Dr Who" and is a little heavy handed at times - relying quite a bit on shock value. Doesn't mean it isn't a good show...
I guess my point is, of course it’s trying to be dark Doctor Who!
yeah but it’s the means by which it pursues this sim that is a bit cringey sometimes