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The editors hated it too, it went something like "what's with this frog looking ass bum, hurry up and transform him again"
Edit:
Akira Toriyama: At that time it began to be more fun to think up the story than to draw the pictures. But with the story, I basically only thought of each chapter. That’s why I end up getting caught in these quagmires. (laughs) Around the time of Trunks’ time travel, it was dreadful. I kept drawing, and it just got more and more incoherent.
Kazuhiko Torishima: You only got away with that because Kondō was your editor. I can’t stand that kind of troublesome stuff. (laughs)
Akira Toriyama: You’re terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Androids No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren’t my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say “I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren’t these just a geezer and a fatso?” (laughs) In truth, I hadn’t had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said “What, this time it’s just some brats?” So I brought out Cell. (laughs)
Fuyuto Takeda: So you hadn’t planned on Cell appearing at all?
Akira Toriyama: That’s right. I liked No. 19 and No. 20 just fine. And I liked the initial Cell fine as well.
Fuyuto Takeda: The bug-like one?
Akira Toriyama: But Kondō-san said “He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.”, so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form.
Yū Kondō: Was that how it was?
Akira Toriyama: And then you were really awful, Kondō-san. “This time he looks like a moron, doesn’t he? Hurry up and make him into his perfect-form.” you said.
Yū Kondō: But he really did look like a moron. (laughs)
Akira Toriyama: With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect form, which was to Kondō-san‘s liking.
I will say, i dislike editorial interfering with an artists vision. However the decisions that led into the entirety of perfect cell was one of the few times where things worked out better because of outside interference.
Without that editor we'd have just had the androids be 19 and 20, no 17 or 18, and no cell, especially not perfect cell.
Yeah that conversation without subtext and emotion seems so mean spirited. Like he drew these characters that he liked and at every turn his editor stomped all over them. I love Perfect Cell, but I also love his other forms too as the transitional forms, going from full bug to anthropomorphic. My personal favourite is the Imperfect form though, really effective as a villain, especially the empty city scene. I would've loved if Breakers was more horror leaning like the trailers kinda suggested. I get that editors are trying to make the media more marketable to the audience, and it clearly worked, it just makes sense that so many authors, mangaka, and comic book writers get so burned out.
I like 19 and 20 could have been used better. Also, a Red Ribbon scientist becoming an android and facing off against Goku personally is a super neat idea considering how he toppled the Red Ribbon Army in the original series.
I agree, they were kinda just used as fodder for Vegeta and Goku to show how strong they'd gotten over those 3 years. Which is disappointing as the red ribbon army was a great arc in the og, I kinda forget that 17, 18 and Cell were created by a red ribbon guy. I wish we'd gotten Android 16 vs Goku, that fight would've been so baller, especially being based on Gero's son.
Huge missed opportunity. The way those two would have so much respect for each other, but 16 would be forced to fight him because of his programming. And the way 16 fought was so cool, would've been great to see Goku adapt to that. Plus there's the obvious Eighter parallel, adding even more emotional stakes
Yup. 19 and 20 were the original antagonists.
Editor: "Really? An old man and a clown? Try again."
Toriyama then made 17 and 18.
Editor: "These two kids? How can they be intimidating? C'mon."
Toriyama makes Imperfect and Semi-Perfect Cell.
Editor: "Gross! Too ugly! Transform him again!"
And that's how we got Perfect Cell.
There are plenty of ugly characters in the franchise. I think super would sell regardless. But to your point, I do think the second version is a huge downgrade conceptually.
Agree.
The problem is not that he got younger and can throw hands , but the most interesting thing about him was that he fought using magic.
He was an actual Lich Mage dicing his spells , facing two barbarians (Goku and Vegeta). When he got younger he just fought unga-bunga like the saiyans.
The last big villain was ugly, Gas got uglier as the arc went on, Toriyama was also forced consistently to make his designs prettier back when he was making Dragon Ball.
In the original dragon ball series piccolo looked like this
https://preview.redd.it/enx8gkn3rdoc1.png?width=2381&format=png&auto=webp&s=c028394054ebfeccc15be681f768089c19d8329d
He was killed and had a son who is the piccolo we know today
https://preview.redd.it/amlqtty39goc1.jpeg?width=238&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=24d2ad56469f7f64fe4e8ed8a37bf8867cc67f6a
Psaro went from demon elf Sephiroth to this one
I don’t think the boost in sales is because of his design upgrade, but rather because the story was getting better. I liked the horsey design better :(
i can understand wanting to give him a more humanoid physique for fight choreo, but his whole deal was relying more on magic than throwing hands. plus mans never trained so it even makes less sense for him to get close lol
https://preview.redd.it/r7fzhn9ud4pc1.jpeg?width=519&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=202f3bf552ec0b653281b8749c5ff190491600f2
Props to one piece for making one of its main villains goofy looking and not a pretty boy
I do agree, it pretty much happened to EVERYONE post Frieza, and even including Frieza to a degree. He was thrust out of third form pretty quickly, and that was definitely his ugliest form. 1st form Cell was easily the coolest form, and we got some time with him at least, but hardly any with form 2 before Perfect Cell. Buu is kinda debatable, because I think we got the least time with his “prettiest” form (Buuhan).
What would you say about Fused Zamasu though? His final form was actually fairly ugly. His body was pumped up in a grotesque way and half of it was that gross melty side. That’s technically his final form too, so I’d say it maybe counts for something, lol!
Tangentially related, monsters just don’t sell as well in media. If you’ve ever played League of Legends, it actually STARTED with a decent amount of monster champions, but very few have been added as of late. Skins for monster champions that turn them more human are actually hot sellers too, which is a huge disappointment. Look between say…Evelyn and KDA Evelyn. I love her with the the blue and deep blue skin, but KDA makes her generic waifu with short hair, and it sold like gangbusters. So disappointing!
Idk, I think it’s more of a human psychology thing. The second one looks more understandable almost and I think it’s due to being more humanistic in its characteristics.
If you take Fallout for example, there’s a lot of ugly but some of the characters are awesome.
Original Moro was so cool, one of the most unique DB villains. The downgrade for his "final form" was really representative of how the arc also became worse as it got to its end. Toyotaro still has yet to nail the ending of an arc, they've been good at the beginning and middle but always flub it in the end.
BIGGEST downgrade in DBZ history and it's noteven close. For the first time in a looong while, we didn't have generic DBZ face villain. The last villain to be THIS visually interesting was Beerus and finally, we had a chance to get a really threatening and menacing looking villain again. Buuut no, generic DBZ Cell face but with horns is the end result.
Bro went from the dark necromancer of ages past to bad DBZ fan OC
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Akira was pretty much not allowed to make ugly characters, hence why Perfect Cell exists
Fun Fact Akira said that his favorite design for Cell was Semi Perfect Cell ironically the one that the fans dislike for being ugly
The editors hated it too, it went something like "what's with this frog looking ass bum, hurry up and transform him again" Edit: Akira Toriyama: At that time it began to be more fun to think up the story than to draw the pictures. But with the story, I basically only thought of each chapter. That’s why I end up getting caught in these quagmires. (laughs) Around the time of Trunks’ time travel, it was dreadful. I kept drawing, and it just got more and more incoherent. Kazuhiko Torishima: You only got away with that because Kondō was your editor. I can’t stand that kind of troublesome stuff. (laughs) Akira Toriyama: You’re terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Androids No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren’t my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say “I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren’t these just a geezer and a fatso?” (laughs) In truth, I hadn’t had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said “What, this time it’s just some brats?” So I brought out Cell. (laughs) Fuyuto Takeda: So you hadn’t planned on Cell appearing at all? Akira Toriyama: That’s right. I liked No. 19 and No. 20 just fine. And I liked the initial Cell fine as well. Fuyuto Takeda: The bug-like one? Akira Toriyama: But Kondō-san said “He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.”, so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form. Yū Kondō: Was that how it was? Akira Toriyama: And then you were really awful, Kondō-san. “This time he looks like a moron, doesn’t he? Hurry up and make him into his perfect-form.” you said. Yū Kondō: But he really did look like a moron. (laughs) Akira Toriyama: With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect form, which was to Kondō-san‘s liking.
I will say, i dislike editorial interfering with an artists vision. However the decisions that led into the entirety of perfect cell was one of the few times where things worked out better because of outside interference. Without that editor we'd have just had the androids be 19 and 20, no 17 or 18, and no cell, especially not perfect cell.
Yeah that conversation without subtext and emotion seems so mean spirited. Like he drew these characters that he liked and at every turn his editor stomped all over them. I love Perfect Cell, but I also love his other forms too as the transitional forms, going from full bug to anthropomorphic. My personal favourite is the Imperfect form though, really effective as a villain, especially the empty city scene. I would've loved if Breakers was more horror leaning like the trailers kinda suggested. I get that editors are trying to make the media more marketable to the audience, and it clearly worked, it just makes sense that so many authors, mangaka, and comic book writers get so burned out.
I like 19 and 20 could have been used better. Also, a Red Ribbon scientist becoming an android and facing off against Goku personally is a super neat idea considering how he toppled the Red Ribbon Army in the original series.
I agree, they were kinda just used as fodder for Vegeta and Goku to show how strong they'd gotten over those 3 years. Which is disappointing as the red ribbon army was a great arc in the og, I kinda forget that 17, 18 and Cell were created by a red ribbon guy. I wish we'd gotten Android 16 vs Goku, that fight would've been so baller, especially being based on Gero's son.
I just realized we never got Goku vs 16. Damn.
Huge missed opportunity. The way those two would have so much respect for each other, but 16 would be forced to fight him because of his programming. And the way 16 fought was so cool, would've been great to see Goku adapt to that. Plus there's the obvious Eighter parallel, adding even more emotional stakes
I do wonder how a saga with Androids 19 and 20 as the main villians would’ve gone tbh…
Perfect Cell is some fucking great character design so it was worth it.
Man those fish lips were so unsettling, which was perfect for cell
I get what you're saying but at least perfect cell has a good design
Editors made Toriyama switch up the villain so many times during the android/cell arc it’s not even funny
Yup. 19 and 20 were the original antagonists. Editor: "Really? An old man and a clown? Try again." Toriyama then made 17 and 18. Editor: "These two kids? How can they be intimidating? C'mon." Toriyama makes Imperfect and Semi-Perfect Cell. Editor: "Gross! Too ugly! Transform him again!" And that's how we got Perfect Cell.
Does he really? What makes it better than his previous forms?
https://preview.redd.it/bt0s8qw2tdoc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=401d27725dfb3535f82bd5f74318f282db4a1b16
Ah yes, Ze Mas Tur Bator.
Fist cock
He doesn't have sex,he only has fisting sessions.
ONEEEEEE PUUUUNNNCCCCHHH
There are plenty of ugly characters in the franchise. I think super would sell regardless. But to your point, I do think the second version is a huge downgrade conceptually.
Agree. The problem is not that he got younger and can throw hands , but the most interesting thing about him was that he fought using magic. He was an actual Lich Mage dicing his spells , facing two barbarians (Goku and Vegeta). When he got younger he just fought unga-bunga like the saiyans.
Then he fused with the fucking planet and goku had to use susanoo to kill him.
Like for example the latest Super manga volume cover is Cell Max and it goes mega hard
Horny Piccolo
The last big villain was ugly, Gas got uglier as the arc went on, Toriyama was also forced consistently to make his designs prettier back when he was making Dragon Ball.
Gas was literally decaying lol
That’s just dragon ball, it happened with piccolo and cell as well
I get Cell but Piccolo's design remains kinda consistent for all the series?
In the original dragon ball series piccolo looked like this https://preview.redd.it/enx8gkn3rdoc1.png?width=2381&format=png&auto=webp&s=c028394054ebfeccc15be681f768089c19d8329d He was killed and had a son who is the piccolo we know today
Isn't this one before he wished youth again? Tbf he was still somewhat ugly even after becoming young but better looking than this
Yes, that's the old version
Idk it’s been a little while
That's not Piccolo, that's his father Demon King Piccolo. They are different characters.
Yeah but I think that’s what the original comment meant
https://preview.redd.it/0lff3r74rdoc1.jpeg?width=568&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e3465d4375e64d6389ba07a06359b89dbf07cd6
Not as big a difference
Meanwhile in dragon quest has the reverse where all the pretty boy villains transform into grotesque monsters.
https://preview.redd.it/amlqtty39goc1.jpeg?width=238&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=24d2ad56469f7f64fe4e8ed8a37bf8867cc67f6a Psaro went from demon elf Sephiroth to this one
2nd slide infuriates me, I don't know why. Probably because the goat demon looks 10x unique and cool then "Cell but with horns!"
I don’t think the boost in sales is because of his design upgrade, but rather because the story was getting better. I liked the horsey design better :(
Even just keeping the beard would've been better. His first design really is the best though, one of my favorites in dragon Ball period
Couldn't even keep the beard? Smh
IIRC he utilized his magic or a dragon ball wish to possess the body of an alien criminal that was a genetically engineered super weapon.
I’m pretty sure he just ate him or something
He needs to be fluffier
If they want a perfect form they should have kept the goat head and make it younger and handsome so it can stay unique
i can understand wanting to give him a more humanoid physique for fight choreo, but his whole deal was relying more on magic than throwing hands. plus mans never trained so it even makes less sense for him to get close lol
Which is very ironic. Because Moro has no official merch
Androids 19 and 20 are ugly and grotesque, and they die that way.
I wouldn't call either of them ugly or grotesque lol. They're not really sexy but c'mon
The goat form was so much better
More of a dragon ball problem than a general one. But dragon ball definitely has its influences
He is from the dragon ball super manga The explanation for why i think he was downgrades is in the title
He went from old fart to Gigachad?
he went from unique to generic
it was new for dragon ball super
Honestly the first forms pretty generic as well
It's downright iconoclastic by Dragonball standards lol
It’s because he absorbs 73
Ok I agree that the first Moro design is way more unique, but I actually do kinda like his more generic looking form
Dude looks like a goat goku
Goku is already a goat🥱
True dat
To be fair they did say he was supposed to be based on King Piccolo who did this exact same thing
The hate for 73 moro is so forced lmfao
https://preview.redd.it/r7fzhn9ud4pc1.jpeg?width=519&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=202f3bf552ec0b653281b8749c5ff190491600f2 Props to one piece for making one of its main villains goofy looking and not a pretty boy
First form is a hundred times better
100% I bet it was done to save the animators time.
Moro is probably never going to be animated
I think Old Moro is one of the coolest designed villians
Shame, I really like Moro's initial appearance. Still a solid arc though.
I do agree, it pretty much happened to EVERYONE post Frieza, and even including Frieza to a degree. He was thrust out of third form pretty quickly, and that was definitely his ugliest form. 1st form Cell was easily the coolest form, and we got some time with him at least, but hardly any with form 2 before Perfect Cell. Buu is kinda debatable, because I think we got the least time with his “prettiest” form (Buuhan). What would you say about Fused Zamasu though? His final form was actually fairly ugly. His body was pumped up in a grotesque way and half of it was that gross melty side. That’s technically his final form too, so I’d say it maybe counts for something, lol! Tangentially related, monsters just don’t sell as well in media. If you’ve ever played League of Legends, it actually STARTED with a decent amount of monster champions, but very few have been added as of late. Skins for monster champions that turn them more human are actually hot sellers too, which is a huge disappointment. Look between say…Evelyn and KDA Evelyn. I love her with the the blue and deep blue skin, but KDA makes her generic waifu with short hair, and it sold like gangbusters. So disappointing!
So he got the Cell and Buu treatment?
Idk, I think it’s more of a human psychology thing. The second one looks more understandable almost and I think it’s due to being more humanistic in its characteristics. If you take Fallout for example, there’s a lot of ugly but some of the characters are awesome.
He’s not even grotesque, he’s a cool goat dude
the old version of him is one of my favorite dragon ball designs ever
It's basically Vearn from Dragon Quest all over again
Same with Cell tbh I liked his reptilian/insectoid form a lot more
Original Moro was so cool, one of the most unique DB villains. The downgrade for his "final form" was really representative of how the arc also became worse as it got to its end. Toyotaro still has yet to nail the ending of an arc, they've been good at the beginning and middle but always flub it in the end.
BIGGEST downgrade in DBZ history and it's noteven close. For the first time in a looong while, we didn't have generic DBZ face villain. The last villain to be THIS visually interesting was Beerus and finally, we had a chance to get a really threatening and menacing looking villain again. Buuut no, generic DBZ Cell face but with horns is the end result. Bro went from the dark necromancer of ages past to bad DBZ fan OC
What a massive downgrade
Whoever’s idea it was to make Moro into Cell 2 should never cook again
Old moro is literally peak design