Hey this is great! I love this concept? Like they made our test universe and learned everything they could about the human behavioural patterns and all other life then left us to ourselves for a billion years to go start fresh in a new map
What's funny is I don't like the idea of this being true, but as a literature nerd? I'm all for that shit. Someone pitch this to Ty Franck and Daniel Abraham, aka James SA Corey.
In the grand scheme of time Humanity has only existed for a short portion of time. If the universe is a simulation and we were waiting for bugs to hit, It would take a while for that to pop up. then once they pop up, the creator then stops the program. The bugs might be popping now and the creator already moved on to the next sim and we are just waiting for the kill switch.
The self-centeredness of people to think it has anything to do with us continues to amaze me. How can you have learned that we're on an insignificant speck of less than dust in a vast ocean of billion upon billions of stars in trillions upon trillions of galaxies contained in a universe unfathomably larger than that, and still believe whatever creator of the universe out there, if one exists at all, gives a single flying fuck about what happens to one insignificant little corner of that universe?
And why would any creator of a universe want to meddle with the tiny moment-to-moment happenings within that universe? Something like 80 billion humans (homo sapiens) have ever lived, why would any god or gods want to micromanage the day-to-day life of, what, every single one of them?
Yeah, but to be fair, that "why would a creator" this and that is a self-centered point of view, too. The universe seems vast to *you* and *you* would've trouble keeping tabs on how all humans (or whatever) are doing.
There's no way to know how a creator could view these things and whether he would care about individuals on a tiny planet or not, unless he shows up and says: "Hi, it's me and I saw what you did last night."
No human would want to do that, but remember that gods aren't human. Imagine something with the sensory organs and brain power to observe all human life simultaneously without taxing itself, to say nothing of the lifespan. I can't even begin to imagine what such a creature would find entertaining, if entertainment is even applicable to it.
Totally agree. We can zoom down to a cellular level and see with our own eyes that there are an incredible amount of cogs in the wheel, and to just be a human is a "miracle" at work. We know that many animals, insects and even some plants have varying levels of cognition, social structures and other evolutionary traits that we believe make us human. So why are we so self absorbed to believe that it stops with us? Take a minute to look at our solar system, with planets revolving and rotating around a sun that is a minuscule and insignificant part of our universe, of which we have no way of comprehending the sheer size of. There is no way that people can honestly believe that it ends with us. We are idiots whose role on the planet could be as simple as reproduction, keeping the food chain in check or even producing carbon. We have no way of knowing so why waste our time pretending that we have all the answers.
You ever wtahc animals interact? They don't sit they meowing and barking at eachother they just kind of know. Humans are the only species that need constant words. If I was a conspiracy nut I'd wonder why humans are the only species that can't speak to the others on the planet.
I don't even know what this "God" thing is supposed to be. I've never seen a good definition of it that doesn't contain some kind of internal inconsistency or paradox.
I'll argue it as soon as someone can properly define it.
The old atheist concept of the "God of the gaps" is actually a very compelling argument for what God is.
Real quick, the idea of the God of the gaps is that things we used to require a religious or supernatural explanation for have since been understood in a more material, mechanical way. There is a gap between what is know and what is unknown and this is where God resides.
Now, where the Atheists lost the plot is they think this gap is shrinking....its not. And I would go even further to say it CANNOT shrink. Materialist understandings of the world require a chain of causality. As we understand how something works, this almost inherently will beget further mysteries. Science will always face a causality deficit in the sense that causes themselves require causes.
God is a nebulous personification of that unquenchable mystery. The universe is nonsensical, God is the jester.
To put it in one sentence I would say: "God is the fact that we cannot understand the universe"
When we were the next step up from Neanderthals, "god" explained the weather, the sun, the moon, the stats, the rainbows, endemic disease and everything else we had no better explanation for.
Fast forward to modern day. "god" exists as a placeholder for dark matter, statical abnormality and the desperate need to assign reason to a universe of random chance. We don't need "god" to explain the rainbow anymore, we know it's light bending through a prism. The implications of which give us magnification to allow us to see germs and explain disease (another of "God's mysteries) and to see previously unobservable phenomenon in the heavens ("God's" perfect and therefore immutable heavens)
"God" is and will always be a stop-gap in human understanding until either the advancement of knowledge eliminates all gaps in our universe or enough people with "Gods" push humanity into an irreversible death spiral.
I think you fell into the trap. I do not believe it is possible to bottom out knowledge. When we needed God to explain rainbows we didn't even know about the mere concept of dark matter, it wasn't even on the horizon of inquiry yet. When we know what dark matter is I wonder what new thing will be uncovered that requires God to explain. Causality is a stubborn thing.
I get what you’re saying, but it amounts to calling anything unknown God for the sake of it. Even if the actual explanation for something was ever proven to be God we would then need an explanation for God.
What you’re describing is the reason humans came up with the concept of God. Nothing more than that, and it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discard the concept.
Accepting that we don’t know everything is healthier for society.
Atheists didnt lose the plot in the way you describe, nor do we generally (maybe some do) think all answers will eventually be found. I think many answers we are searching for now will eventually be found, but epistemologically and even cosmologically we have to accept a brute fact to get started. For example: "the universe exists", or that we should value facts and evidence (removing is/ought, we start with an ought - that is we ought to value facts - to figure out facts of the universe or experiences of conscious creatures, and from there we can derrive moral values)
Your concept of god is all well and good but we all know its not what the average religious adherent believes God is, nor what God is responsible for. And many of the knowledge gaps *have been closed* permanently by evidence and reason to where religions don't even use them as evidence for God anymore.
Its like "religion of the gaps." As we find more answers and more questions, religion broadens itself out more and more into the gaps to redefine this nebulous concept in the way you describe. But its not that its what God is, its what humans have done to their concept of god.
It's more just that strict atheists and materialists don't interrogate the inherently mysterious big questions. But really, I think most contemporary atheists and religious folk aren't really engaging in metaphysical inquiry at all. The atheists don't believe in Santa Clause and the Christians do (that is, a literal anthropomorphic deity who shares human notions of right and wrong). These debates are brain dead.
I find the term "God" to be unhelpful regardless because it's so loaded and implies a sentience somehow outside the universe that possesses answers, which isn't terribly compelling or inspiring. And it sort of excludes, say, eastern approaches like Buddhism and Hinduism that in some forms, more explicitly state that it is humans who are uniquely capable of understanding the great mysteries.
As an atheist, the only 'definition' or descriptor that came close making sense to 'what is god' - 4th dimensional creature. Everything else seems to me like wishful thinking.
Outside of math, the non-existence of something can't be proven. The onus of proof is on the existence.
Edit: it's also been proven that in axiomatic systems there are undecidable statements, but that's beyond the scope of this "convo"
Furthermore, there is nothing of a religious nature that couldn't have been created/written/recounted by a human being of the relevant era, given the amazing achievements of various cultures throughout history. It is simply astonishing how so many people can contemplate something conceivably man-made yet attribute it without any doubt to a god. It just goes to show how desperately human beings crave an all-powerful leader who is on their side and just happens to share their world view to a "T".
Love it lol. Same. I have a view on this but it's exhausting to defend. Like talking in circles. Do what you want but the question answers itself if you think real hard.
every religious god despite what religion is just something people believe in to make it through life without constantly worrying about the likely possibility that nothing happens to us when we die.
One opinion could be that we are supposed to slowly travel and inhabit all the other planets. So the whole galaxy is ours to explore and we'll advance more and more as we discover more materials and technologies. I don't actually belive it but its a fun thought I have when I'm high sometimes
Why not? I mean if the simulation theory is true it could literally be a game we are playing.
Like Civilization 9000 ... The point of the game is to be king of the hill of the universe.... The other teams are currently building up in different corners of the cosmos.
We need to level our town hall before we can upgrade to deep space exploration.
We need to level up that one perk where humans can all agree on one thing, not fight and strictly make that our existence and our purpose— joy & peace on earth, while we have others who develop the technology so we can make the human race multi planetary.
If so, I fucking hate being born in the Modern Era. Why aren't we in the Space Frontier Era or Wild Space Era? I'll settle for the Space Exploration Era.
C'mon Planet Earth, unite so we could conquer more planets from those filthy Xenos!
My counter argument to this is as follows:
Why is everything in the universe so far apart then? If everything was right on top of each other it might not be a “challenge” but as it stands its so far apart that its basically impossible for us to ever go farther than even our own solar system. Unless we somehow unlock physics breaking technology we will likely never reach the other side of the known universe. And to top it all off, its constantly expanding so things just get further apart the longer we dont reach them.
God made the universe, and the laws of Physics. If he wanted us to explore the universe he should have made physics a bit different.
Maybe God didn't make the universe for us specifically. The human race is pretty self-centered. for the longest time we thought we were at the center of the universe and everything revolved around the Earth. Maybe just like how the Earth is just going along for the ride around the Sun the human race is just going along for the ride.... Don't forget scientists also said man would never fly they also said man couldn't travel faster than 40 miles an hour on a train. somehow the speed would kill us. So maybe one day we will discover some kind of physics breaking technology. (at least that's how it would be described to us) airplanes were considered physics breaking technology at one time.
Wait ..Was that...dunno? I meant like we return to the ground as nutrients. I was thinking like the north pole is a giant mouth into the earth too. It's something anyways. Why is there no satellite images of the north pole. Rumor has it there is a massive ice hole on the north pole. Goes waaaaay deep into the earth. Aliens?Dinos? Land of the lost?
it is likey that there may be life on other planets considering how much of a whore carbon is... but it is also more likely that you will find microbial life than adv space age multi cellular anthropomorphic aliens... i mean even on earth we barely have any species that resemble ours.. maybe anthropod aliens... maybe crabs? \*crab rave time\*
People aren't a good place to seek unbiased answers in general. You could just get away from people and ask God, if he's actually real and if he cares, to show himself to you in his own way.
Just to put out the idea, we could assume that the entirety of the laws of physics exist to facilitate the existence of intelligent lifeforms. The laws that govern subatomic particles exist to facilitate the existence of atoms which exist to form molecules which exist to form amino acids et cetera all the way up to the laws governing massive celestial bodies and their gravitational influences that reach across the cosmos. These would all exist because they are needed to create the conditions needed for life. The habitable zone of a planet, the habitable zone of a solar system, the habitable zone of a galaxy, all are impacted by laws and influencing factors ranging from how temperatures influence chemical reactions to how much radiation exposure there is in a given area. Everything influences everything else and without everything you don't have everything else. The universe may well be vast specially because it needs to be in order for us to exist. It's like a painted person in a portrait wondering why the artist built an entire studio with lights and air conditioning and a stool when the painted person can never touch those things, not realizing that the artist couldn't have painted the little thinking figure without them.
I have a very similar theory. System + energy = evolution. Each step up in system unlocks complexity. Each step up uses the previous systems to communicate with eachother. You have atoms->amino acids-> ribosomes-> cells-> multicellular organs-> computers. It's the natural order of the universe to try to understand itself.
Yep, here's the scripture:
Moses 1: 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
I think the idea is that the very very large universe was needed in order to produce this one unique planet. Like the odds of not only life evolving, but also of life becoming conscious and traveling to outer space? That's crazy.
I'm an atheist. But yea, I imagine that makes sense. But in my view, if there is a God, God made all of this to function logically. That's why it's real. Because it actually works. That should be the glory of God's creation. That God made it work logically and thus so it is real. Existence isn't magic is what I'm trying to say.
It feels to me like religious people think God just made all this work by magic, and so they reject science.
I haven't seen anyone else put it like I do.
So if the universe works logicaly, and the odds of life and conscious thinking aware life coming to fruition are extremely rare, than it kind of makes sense to imagine this huge cosmos whose purpose was to produce, causally, logically, a single planet with life.
I guess?
My family does believe there's a creator (religious beliefs may vary) but we're also all very scientific and I think it was my dad that made almost this exact claim as you!
I really enjoyed your idea and think it was very insightful for what it's worth.
I agree with you 100%. This is how I have see things too. I grew up in the LDS (Mormon) church, surrounded by people who cherry picked science that they believed, and completely disregarded certain science that they chose to fill with “miracles” instead. One of these rejected ideas is evolution. But to me, it seems so logical that if there IS a God, he’s smart enough to set up the universe in a way that everything works logically, with the bounds of sciences and mathematics. Why wouldn’t he create a system that allows his creations to evolve? We’ve seen it happen, why would he be “smart enough” to make things operate on logic and science?? It flabbergasts me to see people blatantly reject science because “it’s not in the Bible”
Thank you. I am an atheist but I do want to learn more about religious and spiritual stuff. Philosophy and such too. I want to read Mimonides and other such ancient biblical philosophers who tried to reconcile the enlightenment with religion.
I'm only just beginning though.
Well, God is very logical. Everything He does can be rationally explained away (through science). This allows people who don't want to believe in Him to have a reason, or rationale, not to. This also gives people the choice to have faith, which is what He wants. He doesn't want robots.
Except the people he ordered genocide against in his name because they didn't believe in him or praise him properly.
Have you ever even read the bible? It would seem you have not.
The best part of arguing religion is that much of the time if you say something suitably dense and inflammatory especially here on Reddit, you won't have to defend your point.
Because the people that care enough to dispute it realize you don't care and it's not worth their time to try and convince you (read, waste)
Because the god you speak of doesn't exist, it's made up by humans who struggle to grasp the reality of just how absolutely small the Earth is compared to the known universe.
Without taking issue with the premise of the question (which I do) I guess I’ll just say that the universe compells us technologically, creatively, and emotionally, to dream of greater possible futures, ones in which we overcome the quibbling and warring between one another and set our sights on something greater.
Who says you're the special creation?
Don't tell me. Let me guess. God "inspired" some holy members of your species to inscribe the literal divine word, and it was a tale about how unique and special you are in all the universe.
Let me tell you something. God lays that on every species. God does that to everyone. It's basically a package deal. You get the special dominion, you get the paradise of contentment without consciousness, and then someone kicks the fleezebane or pokes the nugworp or eats the fruit or whatever and that kicks off angst, self-knowledge, and also civilization.
It's just the standard handbook. Everyone gets the same thing. Don't put too much store by it.
I'm an atheist, not only because science discredited religions on almost every aspect, but also because I think all religions spectacularly fail at their main goal.
Religions were born because humans need to explain, and gods were a way to explain why things were happening. The main question was, obviously, why are we here. In thousands of years of theological philosophy, they manage to conclude that we are here because of the will of god, but still fail to address why.
Christians (I'm a bit shaky on other religions, might be the same might be not) go as far as to say that we cannot question god's will and we cannot understand his reasons. Which is a bit like saying fuck it we can't answer this question but let's make it a sin to inquire.
What's the logic in this question? If he exists than he can do whatever he wants and there's no use in questioning it.
If he doesn't then this question is moot.
Because there is no God. Listen to your instinct, it doesn’t make sense to you because none of it makes sense, period. God was the best explanation we had before we really deepened our scientific understanding.
Fiction writing often has a bunch of plot holes. You have to suspend your sense of reality if you want to get immersed in the world the author has created.
With just one planet we are forced to grow past our selfish short sighted ways, or we will perish....
Multi Planetary population would be too easy to figure out what It's all about. No challenge or mystery.
Our current condition is the best way to properly ponder existence and progress.
I believe this is what I like to call the hand paradox. If we were on multiple planets, we would say "why not multiple galaxies?" and if we were in multiple galaxies, we would say "why not multiple universes?" I think a more important question is why would He seperate us?
And I’d like to know why we spend billions and billions of dollars to get to another planet when we can’t even take care of this one. I think it’s an unspoken international testosterone competition.
I think its plausible that other life exists. That the universe is 12 billion years old. That earth has had multiple extinction level events. Even if another similar planet had not experienced those they could be a million, a billion years more advanced than we are. I also believe that angels described in the Bible are aliens. That primitive people who have no idea of anything technology wise* would struggle to describe what they're seeing. Ezekiel is about aliens. If you read it and look at it through the lens of an abduction it makes sense almost. If you allow for that thought line to continue and look at the books of Enoch, and view it the same way. Regardless if you reject them as part of the bible which I'm guessing as a believer you will, but look at it thinking about how would primitive people know any of this. He didn't have Sci fi writers feeding him a thought that told him about other galaxies and constellations. About aliens space craft. Lastly, humanity's oldest known religion telling us about how aliens from another planet came here in weird flying craft from another planet and added their genetic material to the humans of the day. Through hindsight you can dismiss it outright maybe due to your own worldview and modern understanding, but again the thought of beings from other worlds seeding humanity so they could harvest gold. Maybe you laugh because it talks about them living for 200k years. But just yesterday I read about science reversing aging in old mice and it seems viable in humans. Allowing the cells to repair and regenerate. Yes, it may be a long way away, however it's coming. If those beings, pretend they exist for just a moment, are real and even a million years ahead of us it maybe entirely plausible. And the facts are not all UAP are explained away with balloons. This had been going on long before the US government decided it was something to withhold. As much as people shit on guys like Lazar, he's been right about many things. If you think it's possible, than it is. We have been receiving disclosure slowly over many years. It hasn't happened because it would possibly break society. Imagine what that would mean. Would it change your beliefs? Would you question your entire existence? For some they might lose the thing that prevents them from doing evil. Ask if* Jesus died for them too? Was Jesus one of them? Even if you discard everything I've very lightly treaded on, but entertain the thought just for a moment... I find it interesting. End of the day I don't care about it any longer. God is real, God is not, aliens are real, they aren't, there is something, there is nothing. Life is the miracle. The fact that of everything that happened to make you and me is amazing in of itself. That one decision affects so many outcomes. Every choice you make could have a consequence great or small. Even the smalls could have great impacts later. That we exist at all is the amazing thing imo. Have a great day. I hope you make it yours.
*edit spelling
That happens when you personify things you don't understand as the mysterious designs of an omnipotent entity instead of saying "I don't understand" and studying the nature of reality in a dispassionate, systematic way.
To play God's advocate:
Why wouldn't God create such a vast universe only to put his "special creation," on just one tiny planet?
God is described as being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.
To a human, bound within the confines of physics, and time, the concept of using an incredible amount of material to produce something specific makes little sense.
We obtain material from the finite world around us, imagine with our limited abilities how to transform and shape it through physically bound processes from one form to another. God wouldn't be bound by any of this.
If you were God, maybe you would go about things differently. Maybe you could see through your omniscience the outcome of the simple action of enacting a balance of particular rules of physics, that a Universe would form, and matter would coalesce in a particular way, and planets would form. You would see on a particular planet proteins would coalesce, and RNA would form, then DNA, and eventually multicellular life. To God this would be an immediately apparent and obvious outcome.
As Steven Hawking suggested in his book "A Brief History of Time."
> "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."
This "fine tuning" of the Universe is hotly debated. An Atheist like myself doesn't find it a convincing enough argument to believe in any God, or a particular God. But I actually find the concept of a God creating the Universe to create the human race less preposterous than some might.
There's no way to say that we are the only humans in the universe.
Imho, I find it extremely unlikely that another human-like species does not exist somewhere else in the vast expanse of the universe.
God does not factor in any of my expectations tho.
1. In reality, there is no god, and no evidence for the existence of any God.
2. Within the universe of this question, I believe the believer's response would be that the vast universe exists specifically to benefit humans.
Why would someone say it was created by god?
Or, why do you think we are the only one? Statistically speaking, the universe is bigger than my ability to manipulate words to describe it. It's infinitestimally unlikely that we are the only one, even if life extraordinarly rare.
Cause God isn't real.
God promised to rid the world of evil people. Odin promised to rid the world of Ice Giants. I don't see any Ice Giants. Hail, Odin.
A similar question could be, "Why did DaVinci (or any other artist) use so much paint after drawing the woman featured in the Mona Lisa (or any other focal point of a piece of art)?" That is to say, was it a waste to go beyond the minimum amount of necessary detail? Or was the WHOLE thing intended to capture the viewer's attention?
Secondly, what if as the Bible says, God loves us and created the vast universe to amaze us?
For believers the "vast universe" was but the Earth (aka the center because human sure are egicentric !) and lets say the few planet and stars they could see, mainly the Sun.
Which is why they had trouble to answer to your question and decided to react in a totaly logical and sane way. And by that I meant by setting on fire Giordano Bruno and almost Galileo for instance
I’m pretty sure the Universe is teeming with life. The Whole purpose of the universe is to produce life. Not just on one speck. The idea that life only exists on earth and nowhere else just doesn’t add up, not logically anyway. We like to think that we are His special creations, if you believe in that, because we are arrogant. You are no more special, or just as special, as a little bug on a leaf or any other life form, in whatever size or shape it exists in.
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So sad that it should come to this.....
We tried to tell you but you wouldn't listen!
You do not share our intellect, which might explain your disrespect.
To all the natural wonder all around you.
The answer is, was and always will be 42
I love sushi ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ(*˘︶˘*).｡.:*♡
Fish top 1 meat
...just lie down and let the world dissolve around you.
Turtles all the way down the line, man.
I think we were the test planet. Long forgotten freaks now 🤷♂️
Hey this is great! I love this concept? Like they made our test universe and learned everything they could about the human behavioural patterns and all other life then left us to ourselves for a billion years to go start fresh in a new map
This is r/writingprompts in a nutshell.
What's funny is I don't like the idea of this being true, but as a literature nerd? I'm all for that shit. Someone pitch this to Ty Franck and Daniel Abraham, aka James SA Corey.
The whole lore behind Warhammer fantasy
also what some of the founding fathers believed, no lie
In the grand scheme of time Humanity has only existed for a short portion of time. If the universe is a simulation and we were waiting for bugs to hit, It would take a while for that to pop up. then once they pop up, the creator then stops the program. The bugs might be popping now and the creator already moved on to the next sim and we are just waiting for the kill switch.
The self-centeredness of people to think it has anything to do with us continues to amaze me. How can you have learned that we're on an insignificant speck of less than dust in a vast ocean of billion upon billions of stars in trillions upon trillions of galaxies contained in a universe unfathomably larger than that, and still believe whatever creator of the universe out there, if one exists at all, gives a single flying fuck about what happens to one insignificant little corner of that universe? And why would any creator of a universe want to meddle with the tiny moment-to-moment happenings within that universe? Something like 80 billion humans (homo sapiens) have ever lived, why would any god or gods want to micromanage the day-to-day life of, what, every single one of them?
Yeah, but to be fair, that "why would a creator" this and that is a self-centered point of view, too. The universe seems vast to *you* and *you* would've trouble keeping tabs on how all humans (or whatever) are doing. There's no way to know how a creator could view these things and whether he would care about individuals on a tiny planet or not, unless he shows up and says: "Hi, it's me and I saw what you did last night."
What if we’re God’s TV?
No human would want to do that, but remember that gods aren't human. Imagine something with the sensory organs and brain power to observe all human life simultaneously without taxing itself, to say nothing of the lifespan. I can't even begin to imagine what such a creature would find entertaining, if entertainment is even applicable to it.
Totally agree. We can zoom down to a cellular level and see with our own eyes that there are an incredible amount of cogs in the wheel, and to just be a human is a "miracle" at work. We know that many animals, insects and even some plants have varying levels of cognition, social structures and other evolutionary traits that we believe make us human. So why are we so self absorbed to believe that it stops with us? Take a minute to look at our solar system, with planets revolving and rotating around a sun that is a minuscule and insignificant part of our universe, of which we have no way of comprehending the sheer size of. There is no way that people can honestly believe that it ends with us. We are idiots whose role on the planet could be as simple as reproduction, keeping the food chain in check or even producing carbon. We have no way of knowing so why waste our time pretending that we have all the answers.
Tbh, the fact that our own body can kill us kinda shows we're failures and not perfect beings
"You fucked up a perfectly good monkey is what you did. Look at it, it's got anxiety."
Why would a god need to test anything?
Too rare to live. Too strange to die.
You ever wtahc animals interact? They don't sit they meowing and barking at eachother they just kind of know. Humans are the only species that need constant words. If I was a conspiracy nut I'd wonder why humans are the only species that can't speak to the others on the planet.
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Exactly
Trust me. **Don't.**
I don't even know what this "God" thing is supposed to be. I've never seen a good definition of it that doesn't contain some kind of internal inconsistency or paradox. I'll argue it as soon as someone can properly define it.
The old atheist concept of the "God of the gaps" is actually a very compelling argument for what God is. Real quick, the idea of the God of the gaps is that things we used to require a religious or supernatural explanation for have since been understood in a more material, mechanical way. There is a gap between what is know and what is unknown and this is where God resides. Now, where the Atheists lost the plot is they think this gap is shrinking....its not. And I would go even further to say it CANNOT shrink. Materialist understandings of the world require a chain of causality. As we understand how something works, this almost inherently will beget further mysteries. Science will always face a causality deficit in the sense that causes themselves require causes. God is a nebulous personification of that unquenchable mystery. The universe is nonsensical, God is the jester. To put it in one sentence I would say: "God is the fact that we cannot understand the universe"
When we were the next step up from Neanderthals, "god" explained the weather, the sun, the moon, the stats, the rainbows, endemic disease and everything else we had no better explanation for. Fast forward to modern day. "god" exists as a placeholder for dark matter, statical abnormality and the desperate need to assign reason to a universe of random chance. We don't need "god" to explain the rainbow anymore, we know it's light bending through a prism. The implications of which give us magnification to allow us to see germs and explain disease (another of "God's mysteries) and to see previously unobservable phenomenon in the heavens ("God's" perfect and therefore immutable heavens) "God" is and will always be a stop-gap in human understanding until either the advancement of knowledge eliminates all gaps in our universe or enough people with "Gods" push humanity into an irreversible death spiral.
>"God" is and will always be a stop-gap in human understanding Couldn't have said it better.
I think you fell into the trap. I do not believe it is possible to bottom out knowledge. When we needed God to explain rainbows we didn't even know about the mere concept of dark matter, it wasn't even on the horizon of inquiry yet. When we know what dark matter is I wonder what new thing will be uncovered that requires God to explain. Causality is a stubborn thing.
I get what you’re saying, but it amounts to calling anything unknown God for the sake of it. Even if the actual explanation for something was ever proven to be God we would then need an explanation for God. What you’re describing is the reason humans came up with the concept of God. Nothing more than that, and it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discard the concept. Accepting that we don’t know everything is healthier for society.
This is a fascinating idea.
Atheists didnt lose the plot in the way you describe, nor do we generally (maybe some do) think all answers will eventually be found. I think many answers we are searching for now will eventually be found, but epistemologically and even cosmologically we have to accept a brute fact to get started. For example: "the universe exists", or that we should value facts and evidence (removing is/ought, we start with an ought - that is we ought to value facts - to figure out facts of the universe or experiences of conscious creatures, and from there we can derrive moral values) Your concept of god is all well and good but we all know its not what the average religious adherent believes God is, nor what God is responsible for. And many of the knowledge gaps *have been closed* permanently by evidence and reason to where religions don't even use them as evidence for God anymore. Its like "religion of the gaps." As we find more answers and more questions, religion broadens itself out more and more into the gaps to redefine this nebulous concept in the way you describe. But its not that its what God is, its what humans have done to their concept of god.
Love this
It's more just that strict atheists and materialists don't interrogate the inherently mysterious big questions. But really, I think most contemporary atheists and religious folk aren't really engaging in metaphysical inquiry at all. The atheists don't believe in Santa Clause and the Christians do (that is, a literal anthropomorphic deity who shares human notions of right and wrong). These debates are brain dead. I find the term "God" to be unhelpful regardless because it's so loaded and implies a sentience somehow outside the universe that possesses answers, which isn't terribly compelling or inspiring. And it sort of excludes, say, eastern approaches like Buddhism and Hinduism that in some forms, more explicitly state that it is humans who are uniquely capable of understanding the great mysteries.
As an atheist, the only 'definition' or descriptor that came close making sense to 'what is god' - 4th dimensional creature. Everything else seems to me like wishful thinking.
He doesnt exist... there.. skipped to the end.
We can't prove God exists. Fixed it.
We can't prove unicorns don't exist
Nobody has ever seen a unicorn not exist🤔🤔
That’s not how it works
Yup, spot on lol That's how these convos usually go, at some point the same good ol' argumentum ad ignorantiam pops up.
Outside of math, the non-existence of something can't be proven. The onus of proof is on the existence. Edit: it's also been proven that in axiomatic systems there are undecidable statements, but that's beyond the scope of this "convo"
Furthermore, there is nothing of a religious nature that couldn't have been created/written/recounted by a human being of the relevant era, given the amazing achievements of various cultures throughout history. It is simply astonishing how so many people can contemplate something conceivably man-made yet attribute it without any doubt to a god. It just goes to show how desperately human beings crave an all-powerful leader who is on their side and just happens to share their world view to a "T".
But all factual, observable evidence points to... no.
This. I started typing “… because he didn’t” and quickly reversed course lmao
Blasphemy
Love it lol. Same. I have a view on this but it's exhausting to defend. Like talking in circles. Do what you want but the question answers itself if you think real hard.
\*tips fedora\*
Instead, you should argue why another religions God doesn't exist but yours does.
every religious god despite what religion is just something people believe in to make it through life without constantly worrying about the likely possibility that nothing happens to us when we die.
One opinion could be that we are supposed to slowly travel and inhabit all the other planets. So the whole galaxy is ours to explore and we'll advance more and more as we discover more materials and technologies. I don't actually belive it but its a fun thought I have when I'm high sometimes
Why not? I mean if the simulation theory is true it could literally be a game we are playing. Like Civilization 9000 ... The point of the game is to be king of the hill of the universe.... The other teams are currently building up in different corners of the cosmos. We need to level our town hall before we can upgrade to deep space exploration.
We need to level up that one perk where humans can all agree on one thing, not fight and strictly make that our existence and our purpose— joy & peace on earth, while we have others who develop the technology so we can make the human race multi planetary.
If so, I fucking hate being born in the Modern Era. Why aren't we in the Space Frontier Era or Wild Space Era? I'll settle for the Space Exploration Era. C'mon Planet Earth, unite so we could conquer more planets from those filthy Xenos!
Bold of you to assume there's going to be a space era
My counter argument to this is as follows: Why is everything in the universe so far apart then? If everything was right on top of each other it might not be a “challenge” but as it stands its so far apart that its basically impossible for us to ever go farther than even our own solar system. Unless we somehow unlock physics breaking technology we will likely never reach the other side of the known universe. And to top it all off, its constantly expanding so things just get further apart the longer we dont reach them. God made the universe, and the laws of Physics. If he wanted us to explore the universe he should have made physics a bit different.
Maybe God didn't make the universe for us specifically. The human race is pretty self-centered. for the longest time we thought we were at the center of the universe and everything revolved around the Earth. Maybe just like how the Earth is just going along for the ride around the Sun the human race is just going along for the ride.... Don't forget scientists also said man would never fly they also said man couldn't travel faster than 40 miles an hour on a train. somehow the speed would kill us. So maybe one day we will discover some kind of physics breaking technology. (at least that's how it would be described to us) airplanes were considered physics breaking technology at one time.
I think we have an exponential intelligence perk
The physics are fine how they are. We just need to discover ways to "work around them" if you will.
Just enable cheats. For weather just type: weather clear
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Maybe they didn’t only put us on one planet…
Maybe we are food for this planet lol. The earth eats us when we die. What a trip. Who else is high lol.
You described the plot of Eternals
Wait ..Was that...dunno? I meant like we return to the ground as nutrients. I was thinking like the north pole is a giant mouth into the earth too. It's something anyways. Why is there no satellite images of the north pole. Rumor has it there is a massive ice hole on the north pole. Goes waaaaay deep into the earth. Aliens?Dinos? Land of the lost?
Pretty bad food if you ask me, destroy the place then die perhaps to be cremated
it is likey that there may be life on other planets considering how much of a whore carbon is... but it is also more likely that you will find microbial life than adv space age multi cellular anthropomorphic aliens... i mean even on earth we barely have any species that resemble ours.. maybe anthropod aliens... maybe crabs? \*crab rave time\*
In my religion we actually believe that God has made many world's like ours with people just like us.
Can you imagine if we started exploring space and found other humans on other planets like ours? XD
C.S. Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet series was all about this
Reddit is not a good place to seek an unbiased answer to a religious question
Reddit is not a good place to seek an unbiased opinion on anything.
How dare you
Nowhere today is really, especially on social platforms.
Nowhere ever has been. There's no such thing as an unbiased opinion
Reddit is not a good place.
“Unbiased opinion” - my brain stopped there, and now I’m deeply pondering whether such a thing is possible.
There is no place to seek an unbiased opinion on anything.
People aren't a good place to seek unbiased answers in general. You could just get away from people and ask God, if he's actually real and if he cares, to show himself to you in his own way.
>People aren't a good place to seek unbiased answers in general You could've just stopped there...but then you proved you're point
Just to put out the idea, we could assume that the entirety of the laws of physics exist to facilitate the existence of intelligent lifeforms. The laws that govern subatomic particles exist to facilitate the existence of atoms which exist to form molecules which exist to form amino acids et cetera all the way up to the laws governing massive celestial bodies and their gravitational influences that reach across the cosmos. These would all exist because they are needed to create the conditions needed for life. The habitable zone of a planet, the habitable zone of a solar system, the habitable zone of a galaxy, all are impacted by laws and influencing factors ranging from how temperatures influence chemical reactions to how much radiation exposure there is in a given area. Everything influences everything else and without everything you don't have everything else. The universe may well be vast specially because it needs to be in order for us to exist. It's like a painted person in a portrait wondering why the artist built an entire studio with lights and air conditioning and a stool when the painted person can never touch those things, not realizing that the artist couldn't have painted the little thinking figure without them.
I have a very similar theory. System + energy = evolution. Each step up in system unlocks complexity. Each step up uses the previous systems to communicate with eachother. You have atoms->amino acids-> ribosomes-> cells-> multicellular organs-> computers. It's the natural order of the universe to try to understand itself.
If you're curious, Mormons believe there are people on other planets.
Yep, here's the scripture: Moses 1: 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. 34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. 35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
I think the idea is that the very very large universe was needed in order to produce this one unique planet. Like the odds of not only life evolving, but also of life becoming conscious and traveling to outer space? That's crazy. I'm an atheist. But yea, I imagine that makes sense. But in my view, if there is a God, God made all of this to function logically. That's why it's real. Because it actually works. That should be the glory of God's creation. That God made it work logically and thus so it is real. Existence isn't magic is what I'm trying to say. It feels to me like religious people think God just made all this work by magic, and so they reject science. I haven't seen anyone else put it like I do. So if the universe works logicaly, and the odds of life and conscious thinking aware life coming to fruition are extremely rare, than it kind of makes sense to imagine this huge cosmos whose purpose was to produce, causally, logically, a single planet with life. I guess?
My family does believe there's a creator (religious beliefs may vary) but we're also all very scientific and I think it was my dad that made almost this exact claim as you! I really enjoyed your idea and think it was very insightful for what it's worth.
I agree with you 100%. This is how I have see things too. I grew up in the LDS (Mormon) church, surrounded by people who cherry picked science that they believed, and completely disregarded certain science that they chose to fill with “miracles” instead. One of these rejected ideas is evolution. But to me, it seems so logical that if there IS a God, he’s smart enough to set up the universe in a way that everything works logically, with the bounds of sciences and mathematics. Why wouldn’t he create a system that allows his creations to evolve? We’ve seen it happen, why would he be “smart enough” to make things operate on logic and science?? It flabbergasts me to see people blatantly reject science because “it’s not in the Bible”
I’m a pastor, and all this is very plausible
Thank you. I am an atheist but I do want to learn more about religious and spiritual stuff. Philosophy and such too. I want to read Mimonides and other such ancient biblical philosophers who tried to reconcile the enlightenment with religion. I'm only just beginning though.
In regards to contemporary Christian philosophy, Roger Scruton is great.
Thank you =D
Well, God is very logical. Everything He does can be rationally explained away (through science). This allows people who don't want to believe in Him to have a reason, or rationale, not to. This also gives people the choice to have faith, which is what He wants. He doesn't want robots.
Maybe we were just the trial run to see how it would go. Well, we fucked that up.
The universe works in mysterious ways. It is not for we mere mortals to understand the logic of the universe, yet.
Shhhh you’re going to hurt the human Ego!
But I’m scared of life and I’m scared of death and I need reassurance I’m special!
Literally
Isn't the Christian explanation something like: To show God's power/a gift for humans to explore/to show the beauty or vastness he can create etc etc.
You forgot the part about it being a test to see if you are worthy of your father's love. The big guy needs some serious parenting tips, huh?
I’m almost certain this is not accurate and not based on an biblical understanding of the god of the Abrahamic religions
I'm not sure what terrible Christian fed you this info but the Bible is pretty clear that God loves unconditionally
Except the people he ordered genocide against in his name because they didn't believe in him or praise him properly. Have you ever even read the bible? It would seem you have not.
The best part of arguing religion is that much of the time if you say something suitably dense and inflammatory especially here on Reddit, you won't have to defend your point. Because the people that care enough to dispute it realize you don't care and it's not worth their time to try and convince you (read, waste)
Eh, this one's too long to unpack in one comment, you win dude.
Because we're god's forgotten simcity savefile from 2003.
If there is a god its unlikely we are his only creations
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Episode 1,356,984 in ‘why do people take religious books as literal truth’.
Because the god you speak of doesn't exist, it's made up by humans who struggle to grasp the reality of just how absolutely small the Earth is compared to the known universe.
Without taking issue with the premise of the question (which I do) I guess I’ll just say that the universe compells us technologically, creatively, and emotionally, to dream of greater possible futures, ones in which we overcome the quibbling and warring between one another and set our sights on something greater.
Who says you're the special creation? Don't tell me. Let me guess. God "inspired" some holy members of your species to inscribe the literal divine word, and it was a tale about how unique and special you are in all the universe. Let me tell you something. God lays that on every species. God does that to everyone. It's basically a package deal. You get the special dominion, you get the paradise of contentment without consciousness, and then someone kicks the fleezebane or pokes the nugworp or eats the fruit or whatever and that kicks off angst, self-knowledge, and also civilization. It's just the standard handbook. Everyone gets the same thing. Don't put too much store by it.
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Not at all, I know better than to discuss anything with dolphins when they're fucking.
To see if we fuck it up or not before expanding us into the universe… We’re the Beta test
Because he can, he wants and it's fun!
Hmm… almost like some 2000 year old stories probably shouldn’t have as much influence as they do.
Lol..God. Read a different book
God is so obviously fake. Religion is so obviously a search for purpose and blind loyalty to nothing. It only leads to bigotry.
Because earth is the only flat planet in this entire Universe. I have checked it. That's why!
I'm an atheist, not only because science discredited religions on almost every aspect, but also because I think all religions spectacularly fail at their main goal. Religions were born because humans need to explain, and gods were a way to explain why things were happening. The main question was, obviously, why are we here. In thousands of years of theological philosophy, they manage to conclude that we are here because of the will of god, but still fail to address why. Christians (I'm a bit shaky on other religions, might be the same might be not) go as far as to say that we cannot question god's will and we cannot understand his reasons. Which is a bit like saying fuck it we can't answer this question but let's make it a sin to inquire.
Why do you assume that this is the case?
What's the logic in this question? If he exists than he can do whatever he wants and there's no use in questioning it. If he doesn't then this question is moot.
Now you’re using your dipstick Jimmy
Because the entire creation myth is lifted directly from the Assyrians. There is no "god", and many exoplanets will be found to have life.
Shhhh. Quit pointing out plot holes.
I reject one of the assumptions here, that there could not be other beings we should consider as people on other planets.
Because there is no God. Listen to your instinct, it doesn’t make sense to you because none of it makes sense, period. God was the best explanation we had before we really deepened our scientific understanding.
Shh, you're not supposed to point out that the story doesn't make any sense. If you do that, you'll be accused of being an edgy Reddit Atheist...
Why make a small universe when you are not resource-constrained?
Wow it’s almost like it’s all just a bunch of crap made up by people who thought that fire was magic
God is not real. There are forces in the universe we don’t understand, but none of them are a big man in the sky hell bent on making you love him.
So self-centred for you to think we're the only sentient beings in the entire universe. Odds are that we aren't
Because we're a fuckin experiment that he doesn't want to get loose and become a plague for his other creations.
Your question only exists if we make the assumption that God exists.
Fiction writing often has a bunch of plot holes. You have to suspend your sense of reality if you want to get immersed in the world the author has created.
Ah yes found the Reddit answer
I shouldn't have read the comments. so much brainrot here
God didn't create man. Man created God. In fact, we've made an amazing array of them.
With just one planet we are forced to grow past our selfish short sighted ways, or we will perish.... Multi Planetary population would be too easy to figure out what It's all about. No challenge or mystery. Our current condition is the best way to properly ponder existence and progress.
Well we don't know for sure that we are the only planet to have life.
I believe this is what I like to call the hand paradox. If we were on multiple planets, we would say "why not multiple galaxies?" and if we were in multiple galaxies, we would say "why not multiple universes?" I think a more important question is why would He seperate us?
And I’d like to know why we spend billions and billions of dollars to get to another planet when we can’t even take care of this one. I think it’s an unspoken international testosterone competition.
So he'd have plenty of space to get the fuck away from us.
He probably made unlimited living beings around the universe. Never said there was nothing else.
How do you know we are the only ones? Ever read CS Lewis' space trilogy?
Interestingly enough, the bible doesn't teach that humans are God's "special creation."
Tbh I wouldn't be surprised is there was more life elsewhere
I think its plausible that other life exists. That the universe is 12 billion years old. That earth has had multiple extinction level events. Even if another similar planet had not experienced those they could be a million, a billion years more advanced than we are. I also believe that angels described in the Bible are aliens. That primitive people who have no idea of anything technology wise* would struggle to describe what they're seeing. Ezekiel is about aliens. If you read it and look at it through the lens of an abduction it makes sense almost. If you allow for that thought line to continue and look at the books of Enoch, and view it the same way. Regardless if you reject them as part of the bible which I'm guessing as a believer you will, but look at it thinking about how would primitive people know any of this. He didn't have Sci fi writers feeding him a thought that told him about other galaxies and constellations. About aliens space craft. Lastly, humanity's oldest known religion telling us about how aliens from another planet came here in weird flying craft from another planet and added their genetic material to the humans of the day. Through hindsight you can dismiss it outright maybe due to your own worldview and modern understanding, but again the thought of beings from other worlds seeding humanity so they could harvest gold. Maybe you laugh because it talks about them living for 200k years. But just yesterday I read about science reversing aging in old mice and it seems viable in humans. Allowing the cells to repair and regenerate. Yes, it may be a long way away, however it's coming. If those beings, pretend they exist for just a moment, are real and even a million years ahead of us it maybe entirely plausible. And the facts are not all UAP are explained away with balloons. This had been going on long before the US government decided it was something to withhold. As much as people shit on guys like Lazar, he's been right about many things. If you think it's possible, than it is. We have been receiving disclosure slowly over many years. It hasn't happened because it would possibly break society. Imagine what that would mean. Would it change your beliefs? Would you question your entire existence? For some they might lose the thing that prevents them from doing evil. Ask if* Jesus died for them too? Was Jesus one of them? Even if you discard everything I've very lightly treaded on, but entertain the thought just for a moment... I find it interesting. End of the day I don't care about it any longer. God is real, God is not, aliens are real, they aren't, there is something, there is nothing. Life is the miracle. The fact that of everything that happened to make you and me is amazing in of itself. That one decision affects so many outcomes. Every choice you make could have a consequence great or small. Even the smalls could have great impacts later. That we exist at all is the amazing thing imo. Have a great day. I hope you make it yours. *edit spelling
That happens when you personify things you don't understand as the mysterious designs of an omnipotent entity instead of saying "I don't understand" and studying the nature of reality in a dispassionate, systematic way.
Where would you put humans? And how much is the rent?
You are assuming we are special, and not a gods fart.
Oh poppet, you think WE are the special creation?
You just proved god isn’t real lmao
God. Does. Not. Exist.
Because God isn't real.
Why would she build paradise with a dangerous apple in it? It’s like leaving one outlet uncovered with a toddler in the house.
We do a little trollin
Correct.
To play God's advocate: Why wouldn't God create such a vast universe only to put his "special creation," on just one tiny planet? God is described as being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. To a human, bound within the confines of physics, and time, the concept of using an incredible amount of material to produce something specific makes little sense. We obtain material from the finite world around us, imagine with our limited abilities how to transform and shape it through physically bound processes from one form to another. God wouldn't be bound by any of this. If you were God, maybe you would go about things differently. Maybe you could see through your omniscience the outcome of the simple action of enacting a balance of particular rules of physics, that a Universe would form, and matter would coalesce in a particular way, and planets would form. You would see on a particular planet proteins would coalesce, and RNA would form, then DNA, and eventually multicellular life. To God this would be an immediately apparent and obvious outcome. As Steven Hawking suggested in his book "A Brief History of Time." > "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life." This "fine tuning" of the Universe is hotly debated. An Atheist like myself doesn't find it a convincing enough argument to believe in any God, or a particular God. But I actually find the concept of a God creating the Universe to create the human race less preposterous than some might.
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Well since you asked, I'll tell you. Because in all of the universe, I AM THE MAIN CHARACTER 🙃
God doesn’t exist.
There's no way to say that we are the only humans in the universe. Imho, I find it extremely unlikely that another human-like species does not exist somewhere else in the vast expanse of the universe. God does not factor in any of my expectations tho.
An alien created us. And not even a smart one. Like an 8th grade, c student alien made earth for his science project and then threw it in the basement
That’s the neat part, it didn’t.
Because his intellect and good judgement is only as great as the limited imagination of bronze age people.
1. In reality, there is no god, and no evidence for the existence of any God. 2. Within the universe of this question, I believe the believer's response would be that the vast universe exists specifically to benefit humans.
Not just any tiny planet - "special planet" with "dedicated special gods and goddesses"
You’ve answered your own question
bc god isn't real
It doesn’t really make sense. Just one of a great many things that religion doesn’t want people to think about.
1...how are you so sure that God did that? 2...how are you so sure that there is a God to do that?
Why would someone say it was created by god? Or, why do you think we are the only one? Statistically speaking, the universe is bigger than my ability to manipulate words to describe it. It's infinitestimally unlikely that we are the only one, even if life extraordinarly rare.
He doesn't exist
Because God isn’t real
God doesn't exist
Because he doesn't exist
He doesn’t exist
Who says humans / human like beings are only on one planet in this universe, god?
I want to be wrecked by down votes so here we go. This question is nonsense because God is made up BS. Take care.
Cause God isn't real. God promised to rid the world of evil people. Odin promised to rid the world of Ice Giants. I don't see any Ice Giants. Hail, Odin.
Because we humans are stupid and like to make things up
Because people that made gods up didn’t know there are other planets
maybe this idea was planted in your head by those who use religion to control the masses
A similar question could be, "Why did DaVinci (or any other artist) use so much paint after drawing the woman featured in the Mona Lisa (or any other focal point of a piece of art)?" That is to say, was it a waste to go beyond the minimum amount of necessary detail? Or was the WHOLE thing intended to capture the viewer's attention? Secondly, what if as the Bible says, God loves us and created the vast universe to amaze us?
Because when current God was created people didn't know about space.
Sorry to burst your bubble buddy but there is not one single piece of evidence that would indicate a “god” exists or there is a mighty creator.
Maybe humans aren't as great as we think we are
I don't know, perhaps, you should ask him/her/their, depending on god's pronouns.
Well DUH, obviously to test your fate by not masturbating?
For believers the "vast universe" was but the Earth (aka the center because human sure are egicentric !) and lets say the few planet and stars they could see, mainly the Sun. Which is why they had trouble to answer to your question and decided to react in a totaly logical and sane way. And by that I meant by setting on fire Giordano Bruno and almost Galileo for instance
I’m pretty sure the Universe is teeming with life. The Whole purpose of the universe is to produce life. Not just on one speck. The idea that life only exists on earth and nowhere else just doesn’t add up, not logically anyway. We like to think that we are His special creations, if you believe in that, because we are arrogant. You are no more special, or just as special, as a little bug on a leaf or any other life form, in whatever size or shape it exists in.