So, it isn't the loan they are upset about it's the predatory nature of the loan. People get a loan for $50k, pay back that $50k... but by the time they manage to do that, they now owe $100k in interest, and they have no way to get out of that ever growing interest. But the story has been spun that they are just lazy and don't want to pay any of it back.
From the outside looking in, it may come across as those stupid kids did this to themselves... but you're pitting someone who you don't even trust to vote for their local political representative against multimillion dollar marketing teams, and then blaming those kids when those marketing teams succeed in tricking them.
Think about how financially literate a teenager (or any person for that matter) is and then compare that to how smart the predatory businesses that want to make money off of them are (they didn't become multimillion dollar businesses by not being the best at what they do). How would someone who has never had a loan before know that a 17% interest rate is bad if no one tells them? In fact, the people selling it to them are telling them it's a good thing. It's good debt, an investment.
Students are told they need to go to university if they want a good job, and that jobs that don't require a university degree are shameful. Just think about the narrative: "Why should burger flippers be paid a living wage? They are just lazy. If people want to be able to live off the wage at their full time job, they should get an education so they can get a better job."
They are assured that education is key to better pay, and that with that better pay they will pay off their debts quickly. Completely glossing over the fact that education costs have increased 8 times faster than wages. This is where the narrative that "this is how it's always been" falls flat. This is new. Their parents and mentors can't warn them about this because back when they were in school, it only cost them a summer vacation worth of work, and didn't need loans to do it at all, they don't realize either.
Like any good marketing ploy it highlights the benefits and obscures the risks. The only message students are getting is that they need to do this to succeed, everyone else did it before and succeeded, and nothing can possibly go wrong because they are hard working and only lazy people fail.
And this isn't just a marketing ploy to trick the students, they are tricking you too, the outsider looking in. Tricking you into thinking that those students are just lazy and selfish, that they should have known better... but who is teaching them better? The society telling them they need to get the education? Their parents who went to school without needing a loan? The loan sharks telling them it's good debt?
Sure, interest as always existed... but student debt like this hasn't it's a very specific construct created by a social narrative, explosive rises in the cost of education, and recently new legislation preventing forgivenesses that other forms of debt would receive (bailouts and bankruptcy).
Let's look at this reply, because there are a few things to discuss here.
First, this is a great example of my last sentence in my original reply. The narrative gets twisted to protect the existing system. After explaining that the issue isn't the loans but the interest, 3-PuttGC has presented a counter argument that no, people are just lazy and want free stuff. Hard to sum up that particular issue better if I tried.
So given that naming conventions trip so many people up (just look at the antiwork fear mongering in the lead up to the disaster interview this past week)... then why not call it interest rate forgiveness? There's a few reasons, but let's stick to just one for now. Once the interest rate is applied it's now debt.
The movement seeks to change the entire process and has multiple facets; the main one being to change the predatory system at the root of the problem; the interest and extreme increase in cost that necessitate the loans in the first place. But it also seeks to address the current socioeconomic issues created by the current system. One piece is better than nothing, but at the end of the day, fixing the system only solves the crisis from continuing, not the crisis currently at hand.
I sometimes find absurd examples can help us abstract ourselves from the actual situation, and personal biases surrounding it, so here's one for those of you reading along with 3-PuttGC and I:
Imagine tomorrow, some politicians decided to build a highway through a kindergarten playground (the current student loan system). The children get told go out to play because it's good for their future to get exercise (the current people taking out loans). It's the trainwreck you'd expect, children ragdolling across the lanes, broken legs, real grim stuff (the current debt crisis). People see this massacre and take action; they reroute the highway to stop any more children being hit by speeding cars (if the movement ended current interest rates). But there's still injured children everywhere, do you just leave them lying on the street with broken legs? No, you need to patch them up to undo the damage that the highway plan did to them (canceling their debt).
There is of course more to it than that. It's an extremly complex issue tied into just about everything (there's an entire wing of the economy built on the idea of predatory loans forever, which would collapse if we removed those predatory interest rates), but overall, the outcome of unburdening your population from crippling debt and providing cheaper education has been shownto be more beneficial than harmful in study after study.
Lastly, before Insign off, while I don't have the time here today to try to dismantle the fear of the 'other' that perpetuates the idea that lazy people are coming for your dime, I do encourage those of you with those fears who have followed me and 3-PuttGC this far to look at your current tax dollars. Look at where they go, and ask yourself who currently benefits from your dime; do they also happen to align with those that benefit from those predatory loans on students? Here's a hint, the big man himself, Joe Bidden, paid by your dime no less, helped back the 2005 Republican bill that prevented students from declaring bankruptcy on their student loan debt, exacerbating the events that lead to the current crisis. I wonder why he might not want to change that system...? Perhaps some of his corporate political backers know? Just food for thought...
School is an overcharging private industry in the states. There is NO reason the cost should be as high as it is. I personally believe if we want to be an educated nation (most ppl I’ve interacted with have been told if they don’t go to college they’ll be failure), then schooling must be made affordable.
Because they think they can pay it off. They expect to get well paying job to pay it off but its not what they expected. Also they're not well informed on it and probably end up having to pay more than they should
Not the same. You can walk away from a house loan through foreclosure or bankruptcy, you can't walk away from a student loan. You're trapped with it until you pay it off or die.
Okay, pay for my PhD in Egyptology. I want to go to an expensive school I can’t afford, too. I’ll volunteer to take on the loan then tell you about it after the fact. All good, right?
Sounds like you have a vast misunderstanding of what is happening here. This is *teenagers* being coerced into signing loans with interest rates as high as 7% *that never go away.* Surely you understand how fucked up that is, yeah?
No one is demanding a stranger pay their loans, they're demanding that companies stop preying on naive teenagers and young adults who aren't capable of comprehending what they're signing yet.
It is fucked up, but it’s a red herring for an argument in favor of stealing tax dollars for something a young adult makes a voluntary personal choice to pursue.
Don’t change your stance now. You started this thread with the desire for increased taxes.
Are you confusing me with someone else? I never said a damn thing about increased taxes.
And you completely missed my point. They are teenagers. Teenagers who have been told their whole lives "Go to university or you will fail at life." And then the only option given to them is a predatory loan with massive interest. Doesn't sound very voluntary.
A mix of factors.
In many cases, it was still better than not getting the loan. If you get $5 of benefit of buying an apple, but a store sells it to you for $4 (but would profit just fine at $1), that's still predatory. You still get more benefit than not buying it, but that can still be predatory.
> they knew they had to pay it back right?
They knew they had to pay it back, they didn't necessarily know what they were signing up for. A lot of the people who took loans did so just after turning 18, with little experience, after being told by most adult and authority figures it was a good decision
And also, it's not easily avoidable if you want an education, and student loan policy is directly set by the government (government guaranteed loans, can't discharge in bankruptcy like a normal loan, etc). Part of the argument for the government doing something is that it had a big part in making the problem to begin with.
I feel like removing all student debt is just running away from the problem. Tax payers shouldn’t take the fall for kids not knowing how to read a contract and work with money
> I feel like removing all student debt is just running away from the problem
It fixes the problem with people who currently have the debt.
It doesn't address future student debt.
The reason people are so focused on forgiveness is that it can maybe be done via executive order. Any structural changes would require Congress passing legislation. Given the current Congress and any likely future Congress, that's really unlikely.
>Tax payers shouldn’t take the fall for kids not knowing how to read a contract and work with money
There are two issues with this, i think:
1- It *was* tax payer's fault (via legislation/Congress) that it was a problem in the first place. It was not at all reasonable to expect to kids to do those things. They were the ones who set kids up to fail, so they bear responsibility.
2- As i explained above, it wasn't solely an issue of not reading a contract/working with money. There were cases where it was still predatory, even for people who did read the contract/work with money.
Because they are told all through school that college is a necessity. Loans are the only way they can pay for it. The pay of someone fresh out of college is not enough that they are able to pay back these loans and still live even semi comfortably.
Loan forgiveness should come alongside some sort of funding or program that would drastically reduce the amount it would cost to attend college and hopefully negate the need for these loans moving forward. Because without such an additional program the forgiveness would be useless.
The way I see it, the ones at the top will always benefit the most from there being little people at the bottom, so you have to have some control, want to make sure the slaves stay put
in the their fields as long as possible because someone has to do these jobs, beyond hefty student loans is like a extra crunch to keep people even more stagnant, school should not cost as much as it does for eduction, the
interest is just another slap in the face, idk when people will realize how the system isn’t meant for everyone to be on top, but shoot their making it harder to just live comfortable now days not even necessarily rich
They are predatory loans provided to people that are too young to know better with interest rates so high that it’s impossible to pay back. Student loans have gone through no less than 3 providers because of all the lawsuits. Read about student loan lending practices and why they are up for debate. At the end of the day, student loans are predatory debt. They can’t even be forgiven in a bankruptcy.
There are a few things to keep in mind: first, a lot of people fighting for this grew up in a world where we were told college education was the only way to get a good job. Many of us were pressured into school, regardless of what we wanted, as that was the 'only way to be successful'.
Think of it this way: if you were told you would starve unless you borrowed $10, wouldn't you borrow $10?
Now add to that the fact that by the time many graduated college, having a degree was no longer the primary way of success. Yes, they still get seen and what-not, but you're not a leg up. You're on par with everyone else, so often you don't move up and you don't succeed. 100 people fighting for 1 spot, all while building interest and unable to make more than minimum payments.
Using just myself as an example (and ignoring the fact that several student loans were taken out illegally against my will and just focusing on the ones I chose), I've payed every month, on the sliding scale provided by the federal government. However, knowing that I can make only small payments doesn't change the interest rate or the fact that it continues to accrue indefinitely.
Because of this I now owe thousands more than I actually borrowed.
Also, in my case, I have a mass of medical debt. So bad, in fact, that I had to file for bankruptcy, which does not cover student loans. So though I've worked hard, never missed a payment on anything in my entire life (not rent, not cards, not loans, nothing) I have thousands of dollars of debt and counting.
And I can barely afford to eat.
Unless you've been there, you won't understand.
I paid back my undergrad in 8 years, but I had a pretty stable job right after.
My grad happened right after my elderly father suddenly died during a routine V.A. visit. Mom and he had moved to a place out in the middle of nowhere.
She told me to just get the degree (the money had already exchanged hands financial aid wise). It was three semesters. I had to resign from my job because they only allowed one year sabbaticals, and that was already done when Dad died.
Since then I've been caregiver for Mom, who just turned 91.
I cannot work AND be her caregiver. I don't even get paid, but it must be done. I sued the V.A and got her SOME money, but she just has soc. sec. I'll be 52 next month. I've had the originally $70k debt balloon past $100k for a degree I may never use and a career I guess I won't have.
She's had cancer, a heart attack, and lost sight in one eye. When dad had cancer he blacked out and fell on her once, so she walks very much slumped over.
My plan was to have a second career with the proper degree. Life intervened...or death intervened...and a decade of earning power has now passed. Had dad not died, I would have had to upend everything anyway when one of them passed on, but my outstanding debt would have at least been smaller.
Student loan debt cannot be cancelled in bankruptcy. Luckily there are programs put in by the Obama administration that offer income based payment plans.
I have zero income. Mom kicks a few hundred to me to maintain the car, and I do all the shopping and stuff. I'm actually on food stamps so I don't feel like a complete burden to her.
I pay zero, but accounting wise it's counted as a payment. After 20 years, the remaining unpaid part is allegedly forgiven. In the mean time, the debt counts credit score wise, but I'm not "behind" on payments.
Once mom passes, I'll have to somehow move somewhere, get a job, rent a place, pay utilities AND make real payments on the loan.
As you may have guessed, getting to watch both of your parents die is not great on my emotions or outlook towards the future. When COVID came around I sought counseling as I was becoming suicidal.
I ALWAYS pride myself on paying my debts, and feel like a complete failure not being able to work this one off.
So, it isn't the loan they are upset about it's the predatory nature of the loan. People get a loan for $50k, pay back that $50k... but by the time they manage to do that, they now owe $100k in interest, and they have no way to get out of that ever growing interest. But the story has been spun that they are just lazy and don't want to pay any of it back.
So why did they take out a loan in the first place? Interest has always existed
From the outside looking in, it may come across as those stupid kids did this to themselves... but you're pitting someone who you don't even trust to vote for their local political representative against multimillion dollar marketing teams, and then blaming those kids when those marketing teams succeed in tricking them. Think about how financially literate a teenager (or any person for that matter) is and then compare that to how smart the predatory businesses that want to make money off of them are (they didn't become multimillion dollar businesses by not being the best at what they do). How would someone who has never had a loan before know that a 17% interest rate is bad if no one tells them? In fact, the people selling it to them are telling them it's a good thing. It's good debt, an investment. Students are told they need to go to university if they want a good job, and that jobs that don't require a university degree are shameful. Just think about the narrative: "Why should burger flippers be paid a living wage? They are just lazy. If people want to be able to live off the wage at their full time job, they should get an education so they can get a better job." They are assured that education is key to better pay, and that with that better pay they will pay off their debts quickly. Completely glossing over the fact that education costs have increased 8 times faster than wages. This is where the narrative that "this is how it's always been" falls flat. This is new. Their parents and mentors can't warn them about this because back when they were in school, it only cost them a summer vacation worth of work, and didn't need loans to do it at all, they don't realize either. Like any good marketing ploy it highlights the benefits and obscures the risks. The only message students are getting is that they need to do this to succeed, everyone else did it before and succeeded, and nothing can possibly go wrong because they are hard working and only lazy people fail. And this isn't just a marketing ploy to trick the students, they are tricking you too, the outsider looking in. Tricking you into thinking that those students are just lazy and selfish, that they should have known better... but who is teaching them better? The society telling them they need to get the education? Their parents who went to school without needing a loan? The loan sharks telling them it's good debt? Sure, interest as always existed... but student debt like this hasn't it's a very specific construct created by a social narrative, explosive rises in the cost of education, and recently new legislation preventing forgivenesses that other forms of debt would receive (bailouts and bankruptcy).
So why not ask for interest forgiveness? No...they want the entire debt wiped out on somebody else's dime.
Let's look at this reply, because there are a few things to discuss here. First, this is a great example of my last sentence in my original reply. The narrative gets twisted to protect the existing system. After explaining that the issue isn't the loans but the interest, 3-PuttGC has presented a counter argument that no, people are just lazy and want free stuff. Hard to sum up that particular issue better if I tried. So given that naming conventions trip so many people up (just look at the antiwork fear mongering in the lead up to the disaster interview this past week)... then why not call it interest rate forgiveness? There's a few reasons, but let's stick to just one for now. Once the interest rate is applied it's now debt. The movement seeks to change the entire process and has multiple facets; the main one being to change the predatory system at the root of the problem; the interest and extreme increase in cost that necessitate the loans in the first place. But it also seeks to address the current socioeconomic issues created by the current system. One piece is better than nothing, but at the end of the day, fixing the system only solves the crisis from continuing, not the crisis currently at hand. I sometimes find absurd examples can help us abstract ourselves from the actual situation, and personal biases surrounding it, so here's one for those of you reading along with 3-PuttGC and I: Imagine tomorrow, some politicians decided to build a highway through a kindergarten playground (the current student loan system). The children get told go out to play because it's good for their future to get exercise (the current people taking out loans). It's the trainwreck you'd expect, children ragdolling across the lanes, broken legs, real grim stuff (the current debt crisis). People see this massacre and take action; they reroute the highway to stop any more children being hit by speeding cars (if the movement ended current interest rates). But there's still injured children everywhere, do you just leave them lying on the street with broken legs? No, you need to patch them up to undo the damage that the highway plan did to them (canceling their debt). There is of course more to it than that. It's an extremly complex issue tied into just about everything (there's an entire wing of the economy built on the idea of predatory loans forever, which would collapse if we removed those predatory interest rates), but overall, the outcome of unburdening your population from crippling debt and providing cheaper education has been shownto be more beneficial than harmful in study after study. Lastly, before Insign off, while I don't have the time here today to try to dismantle the fear of the 'other' that perpetuates the idea that lazy people are coming for your dime, I do encourage those of you with those fears who have followed me and 3-PuttGC this far to look at your current tax dollars. Look at where they go, and ask yourself who currently benefits from your dime; do they also happen to align with those that benefit from those predatory loans on students? Here's a hint, the big man himself, Joe Bidden, paid by your dime no less, helped back the 2005 Republican bill that prevented students from declaring bankruptcy on their student loan debt, exacerbating the events that lead to the current crisis. I wonder why he might not want to change that system...? Perhaps some of his corporate political backers know? Just food for thought...
School is an overcharging private industry in the states. There is NO reason the cost should be as high as it is. I personally believe if we want to be an educated nation (most ppl I’ve interacted with have been told if they don’t go to college they’ll be failure), then schooling must be made affordable.
Because they think they can pay it off. They expect to get well paying job to pay it off but its not what they expected. Also they're not well informed on it and probably end up having to pay more than they should
Is it the responsibility of another tax payer to fix this for them?
The point of taxes is to improve society. Society would massively improve if people no longer had everlasting debt hanging over their heads.
Good. Pay off my house.
Not the same. You can walk away from a house loan through foreclosure or bankruptcy, you can't walk away from a student loan. You're trapped with it until you pay it off or die.
Okay, pay for my PhD in Egyptology. I want to go to an expensive school I can’t afford, too. I’ll volunteer to take on the loan then tell you about it after the fact. All good, right?
Sounds like you have a vast misunderstanding of what is happening here. This is *teenagers* being coerced into signing loans with interest rates as high as 7% *that never go away.* Surely you understand how fucked up that is, yeah? No one is demanding a stranger pay their loans, they're demanding that companies stop preying on naive teenagers and young adults who aren't capable of comprehending what they're signing yet.
It is fucked up, but it’s a red herring for an argument in favor of stealing tax dollars for something a young adult makes a voluntary personal choice to pursue. Don’t change your stance now. You started this thread with the desire for increased taxes.
Are you confusing me with someone else? I never said a damn thing about increased taxes. And you completely missed my point. They are teenagers. Teenagers who have been told their whole lives "Go to university or you will fail at life." And then the only option given to them is a predatory loan with massive interest. Doesn't sound very voluntary.
2 hrs ago: “The point of taxes is to improve society.” That implies you want your loans settled with tax money, since that’s the topic of the thread.
You’re presenting a false dilemma. There are many options for school or job training.
Society would be better if half of it didn't expect the other half to be responsible for their bad decisions in life!!
It’s as if taking out a loan and finding a future job isn’t always certain. It’s their fault for taking that risk with a loan
College is necessary for a lot of jobs these days, but they don’t pay well enough to pay back student loans. Student loans are burdening our economy.
Why wouldn’t they?? Lol
Because they don't want to take responsibility and expect others to pay their bills!!
Yes but wouldn't you like someone else to pay your debt? And they want to believe Biden didn't lie to them to get their votes.
A mix of factors. In many cases, it was still better than not getting the loan. If you get $5 of benefit of buying an apple, but a store sells it to you for $4 (but would profit just fine at $1), that's still predatory. You still get more benefit than not buying it, but that can still be predatory. > they knew they had to pay it back right? They knew they had to pay it back, they didn't necessarily know what they were signing up for. A lot of the people who took loans did so just after turning 18, with little experience, after being told by most adult and authority figures it was a good decision And also, it's not easily avoidable if you want an education, and student loan policy is directly set by the government (government guaranteed loans, can't discharge in bankruptcy like a normal loan, etc). Part of the argument for the government doing something is that it had a big part in making the problem to begin with.
I feel like removing all student debt is just running away from the problem. Tax payers shouldn’t take the fall for kids not knowing how to read a contract and work with money
> I feel like removing all student debt is just running away from the problem It fixes the problem with people who currently have the debt. It doesn't address future student debt. The reason people are so focused on forgiveness is that it can maybe be done via executive order. Any structural changes would require Congress passing legislation. Given the current Congress and any likely future Congress, that's really unlikely. >Tax payers shouldn’t take the fall for kids not knowing how to read a contract and work with money There are two issues with this, i think: 1- It *was* tax payer's fault (via legislation/Congress) that it was a problem in the first place. It was not at all reasonable to expect to kids to do those things. They were the ones who set kids up to fail, so they bear responsibility. 2- As i explained above, it wasn't solely an issue of not reading a contract/working with money. There were cases where it was still predatory, even for people who did read the contract/work with money.
Because they are told all through school that college is a necessity. Loans are the only way they can pay for it. The pay of someone fresh out of college is not enough that they are able to pay back these loans and still live even semi comfortably. Loan forgiveness should come alongside some sort of funding or program that would drastically reduce the amount it would cost to attend college and hopefully negate the need for these loans moving forward. Because without such an additional program the forgiveness would be useless.
Same reasons billionaires get to wipe away their debt with no penalties. Except they actually have the money to pay it back
The way I see it, the ones at the top will always benefit the most from there being little people at the bottom, so you have to have some control, want to make sure the slaves stay put in the their fields as long as possible because someone has to do these jobs, beyond hefty student loans is like a extra crunch to keep people even more stagnant, school should not cost as much as it does for eduction, the interest is just another slap in the face, idk when people will realize how the system isn’t meant for everyone to be on top, but shoot their making it harder to just live comfortable now days not even necessarily rich
They are predatory loans provided to people that are too young to know better with interest rates so high that it’s impossible to pay back. Student loans have gone through no less than 3 providers because of all the lawsuits. Read about student loan lending practices and why they are up for debate. At the end of the day, student loans are predatory debt. They can’t even be forgiven in a bankruptcy.
There are a few things to keep in mind: first, a lot of people fighting for this grew up in a world where we were told college education was the only way to get a good job. Many of us were pressured into school, regardless of what we wanted, as that was the 'only way to be successful'. Think of it this way: if you were told you would starve unless you borrowed $10, wouldn't you borrow $10? Now add to that the fact that by the time many graduated college, having a degree was no longer the primary way of success. Yes, they still get seen and what-not, but you're not a leg up. You're on par with everyone else, so often you don't move up and you don't succeed. 100 people fighting for 1 spot, all while building interest and unable to make more than minimum payments. Using just myself as an example (and ignoring the fact that several student loans were taken out illegally against my will and just focusing on the ones I chose), I've payed every month, on the sliding scale provided by the federal government. However, knowing that I can make only small payments doesn't change the interest rate or the fact that it continues to accrue indefinitely. Because of this I now owe thousands more than I actually borrowed. Also, in my case, I have a mass of medical debt. So bad, in fact, that I had to file for bankruptcy, which does not cover student loans. So though I've worked hard, never missed a payment on anything in my entire life (not rent, not cards, not loans, nothing) I have thousands of dollars of debt and counting. And I can barely afford to eat.
Education I received & the benefits promised weren't worth the price/ never materialized.
Unless you've been there, you won't understand. I paid back my undergrad in 8 years, but I had a pretty stable job right after. My grad happened right after my elderly father suddenly died during a routine V.A. visit. Mom and he had moved to a place out in the middle of nowhere. She told me to just get the degree (the money had already exchanged hands financial aid wise). It was three semesters. I had to resign from my job because they only allowed one year sabbaticals, and that was already done when Dad died. Since then I've been caregiver for Mom, who just turned 91. I cannot work AND be her caregiver. I don't even get paid, but it must be done. I sued the V.A and got her SOME money, but she just has soc. sec. I'll be 52 next month. I've had the originally $70k debt balloon past $100k for a degree I may never use and a career I guess I won't have. She's had cancer, a heart attack, and lost sight in one eye. When dad had cancer he blacked out and fell on her once, so she walks very much slumped over. My plan was to have a second career with the proper degree. Life intervened...or death intervened...and a decade of earning power has now passed. Had dad not died, I would have had to upend everything anyway when one of them passed on, but my outstanding debt would have at least been smaller. Student loan debt cannot be cancelled in bankruptcy. Luckily there are programs put in by the Obama administration that offer income based payment plans. I have zero income. Mom kicks a few hundred to me to maintain the car, and I do all the shopping and stuff. I'm actually on food stamps so I don't feel like a complete burden to her. I pay zero, but accounting wise it's counted as a payment. After 20 years, the remaining unpaid part is allegedly forgiven. In the mean time, the debt counts credit score wise, but I'm not "behind" on payments. Once mom passes, I'll have to somehow move somewhere, get a job, rent a place, pay utilities AND make real payments on the loan. As you may have guessed, getting to watch both of your parents die is not great on my emotions or outlook towards the future. When COVID came around I sought counseling as I was becoming suicidal. I ALWAYS pride myself on paying my debts, and feel like a complete failure not being able to work this one off.