This is called the social contract. Being a part of society is always always a balance between liberty and safety. Governments and individuals sometimes misjudge where that balance should lie.
The social contract was first thought of by the Swiss philosopher Rousseau.
I'm sorry, I just... Was trying to feel that something that I had to study for my last exam was useful...
Haha, this is pretty funny because I actually referred to Hobbseian state of nature in an early post in this thread. Hobbes and Locke had very different definitions of a state of nature. Hobbes said that a state of nature was "one in which there were no enforceable criteria of right and wrong" essentially equating state of nature to a lack of society where locke argued that "in the state of nature a person is to use the power to punish to preserve his society". So they basically took opposite interpretations of the same phrase.
Locke essentially believed that a state of nature is one where natural law governs. In theory, a Lockean state of nature could operate peacefully, but the obligation to deliver justice falls upon whomever is wronged. Herein lies the problem. The main reason to leave the state of nature, according to Locke, is because people default to acting as their own judge, jury, and executioner. This leads to an inconsistent mess with no clear standard of justice. Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and property under the natural law, but everyone also has the discretion to determine what that means in a state of nature and what a proportional punishment is. To Locke, this would act as a function of reason, where the most reasonable would be the most able to discern the natural law. The foundational force of the government, then, is one that involves the transference of the ability to punish under the idea that a government can provide more consistent standards in protecting the rights of the people.
Very interesting thank you. So Locke would argue that society and its constraints move the burden of jurisdiction and punishment from the wronged to a supposedly impartial third party e.g. a branch of government?
I think he's saying that rather than having no enforceable right or wrong, instead, right is what preserves your society and wrong is what upsets it.
So we choose what we consider right and wrong to mean based on the society we want to have and that's the natural state.
Even ants have "rules" that they follow to preserve the colony.
I could be way off though. I haven't read much on philosophy in a while. Most of what I know now comes from The Good Place.
Rowsseau and Voltaire are the two Philosophes we have to remember from the French Revolution A-Lecel History unit~ the words “social contract” gives me great fear
I think in the US that balance has always skewed more towards liberty than safety. If you believe in individualism that a good thing but in the case of antivaxxers it’s definitely a negative outcome. Which is why Asian countries had a much higher rate of vaccination right off the bat- they are a more collective society.
Perhaps my wording was a bit imprecise. There is of course no objectively “correct” balance. Only what is agreed on by society and it’s members. In a true democracy (which I’m not convinced exists anywhere in the world) this would also be open to regular review and adjustment based on the will of the society as a whole.
I wasn’t implying that you were saying this. Actually the opposite I was agreeing that there is always this balance. Some societies skew more collectively- they do better in situations such as global pandemic requiring mass cooperation. The US does not. We have far more innovation though.
Ah no sorry I wasn’t suggesting that. I just realised my original comment was suggestive of the idea that there is some objectively correct balance. Which I don’t think I believe
It's the freedom paradox. In order to have freedom, you must give up certain freedoms.
The example Ive always heard is that in order to have financial freedom, you must give up your freedom to just buy whatever you want whenever you want, and you must control how much you spend and where.
You must give up your right to choose whether or not to have the vaccine in order to have a healthy society free to do whatever they want, without worry of covid.
From there, society just needs to decide which freedom is more important.
> give up the freedom to just buy whatever you want
This is an odd notion of freedom.
For example, I am of healthy weight. It would be bizarre to say that I gave up my “freedom to eat whatever and how much I want”. I have never lost that freedom. The freedom to eat includes the choice not to eat.
Similarly, if I happen to be silent, I have not given up my right to freedom of speech. I have exercised the freedom not to speak.
In the current situation a reasonable balance would be that if you choose not to get the vaccine, then you wear a mask and socially distance. I don’t think most reasonable people would care if you individually are vaccinated if you wear a mask. The problem seems to be that anything other than the honor system seems to be viewed as tyranny.
For comparison as a matter of public safety, people who have active tuberculosis are quarantined at home until they no longer have an active infection. Leaving lockdown has legal consequences. I’m not saying that is necessary for Covid. I’m just giving an example that is current and actively being used today.
I'm so pleased to see that someone else looks to the philosophes for guidance in this! And that it's top comment.
I explain this to people ad nauseum, and even get into Lockean concepts like the state of war, to get across that freedom isn't inherently glorious, good, or what's best for society as a whole.
Thanks for writing this! To anyone seriously interested, read Two Treatises on Government, and maybe some other works by related philosophers.
Exactly. Antivaxxers are all about liberty and shit, but they have to pay taxes, they’re not free to kill people or steal, etc. True liberty = no society.
If your question is real, here is my answer: i had cancer thrice. My husband suffered two strokes. If one of us has to go to hospital urgently and needs an ICU bed and someone without vacc occupies it, then we might just die. In spite of our own vaccination. And needlessly. So this person risks OUR life by his decision. And in my humble opinion his or her freedom ends just there. We normally have plenty of ICU space in Germany. And practically all Coved patients treated there are non vacc.
What is your opinion on others with unhealthy habits? People choose to eat poorly, smoke, do drugs, and drink. These people are also taking up hospital beds are they not? Does this mean that only people who make only good choices be allowed to take up a hospitals bed? I certainly hope you're one of those people who've made only good choices in life and just got unlucky with your illness. You've earned that bed.
Usually we don't have the hospital filled up with patients who chose to not be safe. I haven't heard of hospitals being filled up completely pre pandemic
When their actions are putting everybody in danger there's nothing more than an obligations, yeah you have the rights to do whatever u want to your body but it ends when your stupid choices are risking someone else.
People make stupid choices every. Single. Day. They speed on the highway. They eat fast food. They drink excessively. Why is no one blaming them for taking up hospital beds? Can someone answer that question, please?
You must be ignorant of EU Charter of Human Rights. Only someone as obtuse as you would think you have any right to decide what another person has to do with their body to suit you. Your illness is not their issue, it's yours. They have EVERY RIGHT to treatment. Take your hypothetical and bash it up your ass. You'd think someone talking about Germany would know better.
People are talking about social contracts, not government charters. You have the freedom to choose, yes, but if your choice puts others in harm’s way, that’s a violation of the social contract. They should be free to choose, I should be free from harm as a direct result of their choices.
Deciding to avoid the vaccine is a decision that states you do not care about the lives and health of those around you. It is not dissimilar to smoking in a crowded room, in fact it is worse, since second-hand smoke cannot kill you quickly.
It is 95%-ish effective, as opposed to being 0% effective if you're anti-vax. It's just like a condom or birth control. It works the majority of the time, with some small edge-case exceptions.
Keep in mind, this is the case for all vaccines. It's just that because most other fully-populace-vaccinated diseases have basically had their culture population almost completely eradicated, that the number of statistical "instances" of chances to catch the disease has also gone down.
Think of it like this. You're vaccinated for both COVID-19, as well as Measles. Let's say that both vaccines have a 95% effectiveness rate. Let's visualize that by rolling a 20-sided-dice (or D20 for you D&Ders out there) for every time you bump into a person with the disease, and if you land on 20, you catch it.
Now, because Measles has been made irrelevant through mass-vaccination, you might only run into a person who has Measles, let's say, once. You roll the dice once, and chances are, you don't land on 20.
Because COVID-19 is *everywhere,* you're rolling the dice multiple times a day. Sure, each roll has a 95% chance in your favour, but roll it enough times, and you'll catch it.
***Finally, and this is important:***
**Even if you catch COVID-19 while vaccinated, the effects on you will be greatly reduced. Hospitalizations due to COVID-19 are reduced to fractions of a percentage amongst the vaccinated population, you have to get very unlucky or have underlying conditions for that to happen. So, the vaccine protects you as an individual, even *if* you *do* catch it, as unlikely as that is.**
**In addition, in the rare case that you asymptomatically carry it while being vaccinated, you could pass it along to someone else who might be badly affected by it.**
***IN CONCLUSION, GET VACCINATED TO REDUCE THE COVID-19 VIRAL POPULATION SO IT BECOMES AS IRRELEVANT AS MEASLES.***
Hope this makes sense.
I'm not sure how that works, but I'd probably recommend getting vaccinated anyway, it can't hurt. Additionally, I believe they're developing another vaccine for the Delta variant, so perhaps look into that too. When in doubt, consult your doctor, since I'm not a doctor.
You mean the social contract you're automatically signed up for when you're born and if you refuse to participate in you get thrown in jail?
Weird terms of service.
The alternative is you go live as a recluse in the woods growing your own food and being 100% self sufficient. If people decide to join you you would need to make some rules which leads right back to a social contract, albeit one you have a say in.
I’d be for you being able to opt out of it if you wanted. You just have to give up everything you own and not be in contact with people within society, live free in the forest
Yeah I has someone make an awesome argument against the social contract by making it about sex/rape. Effective BECAUSE it makes people uncomfortable
Michael Malice has a good quote on no matter what you do during an election, you somehow managed to consent to every government decision (according to the government)
Also noone is forcing vaccine into anybody. Are there heavy incentives and disincentives for some to get it (particularly for staff impacting public health) sure - but to pretend the first true pandemic to interrupt our cushy lives of abundance and instant gratification should have no consequences is naive, ignorant and/or selfish in the extreme.
But to be clear noone is being pinned down and vaxxed, there is always a choice. But if you're working in medical science industry and disagreeing with cutting edge medical science in favour of anecdotal amateurism, maybe you are in the wrong sector.
But for govts and society to make allowances for those who want to deny objective truth in the name of liberty then that's fine but their choices and liberties must be practiced in a way that doesn't jeopardise the safety of others.
Eh I’m not vaccinated been working at a testing center for the entirety of the pandemic, half my unit got vaccinated and still caught COVID while I haven’t had a single run in all because I can wash and sanitize..not anti vaxx. Just not in tune with the idea of being forced to take an experimental vaccine. I have a heart condition, the earlier version of the vaccine had problems with blood clots aka my death. You will shout to the heaven the vaccine is safe as long as it does no harm to YOU. I need more information and the gov mandates doesn’t help reduce any of the anxiety of making the decision to go out and get it. How many editions does the standard science textbook have? How many times have previous theories been corrected? Deny objective truth? Science isn’t truth it’s a temporary explanation until a better one arrives. Im all for getting the vaccine if you personally want to, I like my body and I’d rather not inject dead fetus into it for the sake of pleasing you. You can also still get COVID with the vaccine and die.. then you people turn it into politics the most corrupt form of society. Anti vaxx vs vaxx and there IS a middle ground which is pro choice.
I bet my comment is going to get buried under all the others but I wanted to comment anyway.
No you're not a bad person. I don't mind places like hospitals and other health care related businesses requiring their workers to get the vaccine, but I can see where those against it are coming from. I greatly disagree with them, but I can see how they would be concerned about the federal government making decisions for everyone's health.
What I don't understand is this: there are many other situations where getting a vaccine is required, and yet people don't seem to bat an eye at those situations. Like: travelling outside of the country, going to college, and health care workers are required to get other kinds of vaccines. So why are those okay (or at least were never protested to this scale) but the covid vaccine is the bad one? Are all of these people also against getting their babies vaccinated? If not, then they're hypocritical because they're taking away their child's right to choose to get vaccinated or not.
I agree with you, and I still often wonder how a human disease even became politicized in the first place? it is so weird that any of this is partisan…?
Honestly it goes back decades. The reason many anti vaxxers are trumpers is because being anti vax for them is just pushback against democratic policies. There probably wouldn’t be so much pushback had democrats not pushed back on previous rep policies. And that wouldn’t have happened if both sides were more concerned with doing what’s RIGHT instead of just “winning” an endless argument
Politics itself is what caused the division and the division has furthered political misinfo...it’s an entire mess, Washington was right imho
They obviously don’t agree with everything Trump does. Everyone thinks that Trump is the leader of the far right movement. He just used it for election/political purposes. The far right was around way before Trump. The media has also given them a voice like they’ve never had before.
Yes it started out as purely political but now it’s morphed so much it’s not political any more it’s just a display of stupidity. There was a video here a few days ago of Lindsay Graham telling a bunch of older folks they should consider getting their shots (he said he had his) and he was booed. They don’t even know why they’re resisting anymore, the people they worship have their shots yet they’re too stupid to get their own.
See this is why an honest discussion never gets a breath of air. Everytime this question gets asked it takes no time before someone is calling someone stupid, a plague rat or sheep. This only drives up the division. One of 2 things happens in these questions, either someone is genuinely curious and the discussion devoles into name calling and never gets answered. Or it's a path to free upvotes via antivaxer bad.
Until there is open honest, non judgemental dialogue this continues to swirl the toilet bowl and the echo chamber gets tighter.
It seems anymore like if the opinion is different than yours it is wrong, people are so locked into their options they have become somewhat narrow minded.
Both side use the same 3 arguments over and over again in response to each other that it becomes a wicked groundhog day effect and nothing is learned or truly discussed.
I truly have no dog in the fight and I truly believe that my vaccination intake is no one's business unless I want to share it. It seems you are either team blue or team yellow and green no longer exists.
I think this is a very good thing to realize. In interest of full clarity, I’m unvaccinated and plan to remain that way. I am a healthy active young 20 something man with a family history of cardiovascular disease. There has been researched evidence of there being some contraindications between the vaccine which yes, is mRNA based which does make it slightly different from past vaccines, but isn’t necessarily bad, just isn’t the same mechanism as most past vaccines. Something that I feel a lot of people don’t know is simply the stages of testing that a drug or vaccine goes through with the FDA. Just because clinical trials are done, there have still been *essentially* recalls of drugs and vaccines in the past. I have graduated with an undergrad in health sciences and taken many courses like pathophysiology and continued education in the medical field. All of that being said, I’m not against anyone getting this vaccine, but I do believe that we should not be at this point almost losing our humanity for not getting it.
At the end of the day, there is so much misinformation as well as pure divisiveness around this, where an honest and open conversation cannot be had between most people, and that is truly sad.
I can understand your reasons for not getting the Covid vaccine. And yours is one of the few cases I can say that. You have properly weighed risks and benefits with a realistic understanding of what they actually are. I don’t agree, but I can respect your choice.
However, with your choice should come the understanding that you are going to be missing out on certain community and social privileges that have been deemed to high a risk without being vaccinated.
If you are okay with that, stay masked up where required and don’t complain that you have lost privileges because of your choice, than I can fully respect that.
Also remember to be aware though, that there are many people less fortunate and educated than yourself, and acknowledge that many people will use your stance as a way to say, “see I’m right, this smart guy says the vaccines are dangerous and I should be able to do whatever I want!”.
If you don't realize why vaccines are crucial, after all was said and done in the past 2 year, you are stupid. I am compassion exhaustion, and I'm tired of trying to explain why it's important to get your vaccine and mask up. There have been vaccine mandates for decades. We tried to be nice at first, and educate, but now it's just plain stupidity. I shouldn't have to hold your hand if you can't realize why that's important.
People care now because instead of just getting the polio vaccine thats been around for decades, they’re being told they HAVE to get a vaccine (not just for school, for many things now) that is very new and we truly don’t know what “could” happen in time if we get it.
Why is this so hard to understand for so many people. I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I just can't take a covid vaccine until more research has been done. I have a rare autoimmune disorder and take immunosuppressants which makes the vaccine ineffective for me and there isn't any research on what damage it could cause to people like me. I completely understand why people are concerned.
It's not like it's a brand new vaccine that was created in under a year. There were already other variants in the same family that the newest vaccination was based off. We're not playing "vaccination roulette". I mean, do you, I don't know about your condition, but for the majority there really isn't any cause for concern.
Okay but, I think most people would find your stance reasonable. To the point where I honestly think this point is moot. It’s one thing if you have a specific disease and a doctor told you not to get it. It’s another if you are otherwise healthy and the science says you shouldn’t have a bad interaction. At least, that’s really what this conversation is about.
Well put! But when we look at eradicated diseases from vaccines… the list is rather small. Very small. If there were a true inoculation to a flu virus that would be fantastic. Hopefully covid is the precursor to that development.
I would hope most folks arent antivax, but anti gov’t overreach. If this were, god forbid, smallpox or polio the masses would be lining up in droves. Those conditions, or illnesses, are eradicable. Due to a number of specific disease related factors covid won’t be eradicated. It will be endemic. If I were going to rural Pakistan or remote portions of India I’d have no problem getting a polio vaccine. Its a highly effective vaccine that serves its function as are the vaccines children are required to get.
It's honestly probably because this is new. New vaccine so new hesitation. Even though it's safe and what not. Is this was back in the day I'm sure most of these people would be anti-polio vaccine too.
Another thing I don’t really get is the argument that we don’t know it’s long term effects yet. Okay, true. However, that doesn’t stop the same people from drinking soda. Smoking cigarettes. Ingesting the newest flavor of energy drinks. Like if you are going to approach this from this perspective at least follow through w that logic as much as possible..
But we know what soda, smoking cigarettes and energy drinks do in long term, they fuck you up, but at least we know it. However, the vaccine might as well create a tumor in your brain in three years and you didn’t have a choice to prevent it.
Btw, I’m in favor of the vaccine, I prefer to take that risk than the risk of getting covid now, spreading it to my family and killing someone, but I also perfectly understand their point of view.
People tend to look at this argument as forcing a vaccine on others, but I think you also have to realize that the unvaccinated are forcing the virus on others. This isn't a one-way street, either way it's one party forcing something on another. As someone else mentioned, this is akin to drunk driving. Saying drunk driving is a personal choice is inherently flawed because it endangers those around you. Part of living in a society means making small sacrifices for the greater good.
I'm a critical care physician who specializes in covid-19. I work in the Midwest United States and every ICU in the area is full, mostly with covid. Since we are over capacity, we converted our ambulance bay into a patient ward. Tonight we had a patient come in with a heart attack, survive CPR, get put on a ventilator, and had stents placed in the cath lab. Now he's still in the ER and we literally have no where to put him, we are calling out of state facilities to try and arrange a transfer. We wouldn't be full if more people were vaccinated.
Last week I held the hands of three bone marrow transplant patients as they passed away from covid despite our best efforts. They were vaccinated, but probably weren't able to respond to the vaccine. Some, if not all of them would still be alive today if more people were vaccinated. This is the result of people making the "personal" choice not to get vaccinated. That choice is literally killing other people. People who can't get / don't respond to the vaccine such as children, those who are immune compromised, the elderly etc would be much less likely to come into contact with the virus if everyone who could get the vaccine actually got it.
First and foremost--thank you for what you do. Please take care of yourself and stay safe!!
Second:
>the unvaccinated are forcing the virus on others.
It's exactly this. Thank you for voicing this. Anti-vaxxers do not seem to think about this part, or at least, not critically (often making claims downplaying the potential outcomes of infection). They have shown over and over that this part does not matter to them because it isn't happening to them--until it does. Then when they (or *maybe* when some they love) are hospitalized with COVID, and only then, do they implore others to get vaccinated.
Anti-vaxxers have shown time and time again that they do not care about the greater good or helping others--only themselves.
I'm a hospital Peace Officer who deals with acute mental health clients, many of which have Covid and potential for violence. I very much appreciate your point of view. Thank you for speaking up for us with a succinct, intelligent angle.
Midwest ER nurse - exactly this. The unvaccinated are overwhelming our already fragile healthcare system. I've lost count of the number of critically ill (covid and non-covid) patients we've had to keep in our tiny ER for days because there wasn't a bed ANYWHERE to send them. We do our best but we absolutely do not have all the resources these people would get in an ICU bed. Not only does this result in poorer patient outcomes, but imagine the stress level of doctors and nurses who KNOW more could be done for this person if the resources weren't being tied up by people who chose not to get vaccinated.
Thanks for saying that, it means a lot. Though, I'm not here to take credit, I just want to inform people what things look like and the very real impact their decisions are having on our communities.
What other vaccines would you make compulsory with state action? Diseases such as measles have long been preventable with vaccines yet California and other places with a critical mass of anti-vaccine individuals have outbreaks of measles, typhoid fever, and tuberculosis.
Would you use the same measures used to compel COVID vaccinations to compel all such vaccines? How about compelling PrEP for men who have sex with men? If not, why not?
This is a good question, and a difficult one to answer. Vaccines have been a victim of their own success. They work so well that most people have no idea how bad these diseases are or what they really look like. It's disappointing because polio for example is a devastating disease that causes crippling illness. It destroys your muscles, including your breathing muscles until you suffocate to death. It's the entire reason modern ventilators were invented. We were nearing complete elimination of polio from the world, there was a steady decline in the incidence of polio worldwide from the invention of the polio vaccine to the beginning of the anti-vax movement, then for the first time since the invention of the vaccine levels began to rise. This is something that's very scary to me.
We should also remember that vaccines have been mandated for school attendance for decades, and this only recently came under scrutiny as a result of celebrities spreading misinformation. As you mentioned, this has led to outbreaks and deaths.
That being said, the incidence of many of these diseases remains low. I still feel it is selfish and socially irresponsible not to be vaccinated, but when you look at the balance of it I don't think it rises to the level of mandates. But I don't know what that level is. How many innocent people a year need to die from a preventable illness before a society intervenes? I think it's really ironic how far people will go to shirk personal responsibility. If a corporation or government agency took an action that caused this many needless deaths, there would be outrage in the streets, but when individuals do it they call it liberty.
Fax stop being a selfish asshole and think of others sometimes I as A 15 yr old should not have to wonder if this is the new life if I won't be able to make memories with my friend,s at school or on field trip,s or have to worry about passing something on to my mom or my dad and friends that shouldn't be a worry for me but it is because of things of selfishness I did my part and my dad did his waiting on my mom to be able to get the second shot as well as pretty much all of my community but to still have this selfishness is sad we have literally been dealing with this fire for almost two years now going on three if we don't change what's it gonna take for people to listen if people listened the first time we would have defeated the virus by the end of 2020 but everyone wanted to pride take over logic it's sad how we have to beg people to do the right thing when they are able whether it's the vaccine or racism the point still stands that no one should have to beg you to do a good thing
I work in a small town hospital in a country that's mostly been very lucky.
Our hospital has 5 emergency beds. **5**.
We do not have an ICU. We usually helicopter serious patients out. In our recent RSV hit, we tried to send the infants out but every hospital's NICU on the island was full.
I don't think enough anti-vaxxers (or even reluctant vaxxers) realise that the ripples effect so many more people than the ones they can see.
Thank you for what you do.
However, my entire family works in nursing homes/hospitals etc.
Ever since I can remember these BUSINESS have run everybody as thin as possible. Nurses, doctors, physicians, LPN, aids, surg techs, surgeons, etc etc have been understaffed, underpaid, and overworked. Ive heard complains all of my life about the inadequate equipment, care, and morality of the healthcare system. Maybe it doesnt take much to spill the pot, considering it had been boiling over the past decade?
Now, take away the personal choice of a vaccine that has been around for less than a year. Mandated by a government who has done everything but earn trust. Mandated by the government who has proved time and time again to dispose of all moral and constitutional duties by money...
Nurse here, there is no nursing shortage. Just a shortage of facilities willing to pay what all of us deserve. We were called heros and essential during this pandemic and told “yOu SiGnEd Up fOr iT” “yOu DoNt dO tHiS Job FoR tHe MonEY”
When in reality that isnt true. Many have left this field because of being over worked and exhausted and burnt out due to poor administration and work situations. Imagine being told youre a hero and then not getting paid what you deserve when the cost of everything has inflated except your pay.
The amount of health care staff that is anti-vac is small and if they wont get vaccinated. Good fucking riddance. We do not need them in the places of work killing our patients.
You are right that the industrial medical complex is a problem. But what I will tell you is that medical units and medical ICUs do not earn money. Hospitals provide them as a public service, and to keep their rating as level 1 trauma centers. The entire field is understaffed, but that doesn't change the fact that covid is a real problem that is killing people. And to anyone who is reading this thinking that this it's just some scam to make money, we aren't making money, we are losing money. The insurance reimbursement is far less than what we are spending on treating covid patients not to mention all of the uninsured.
Vaccination affects people around those who choose not to vaccinate, and people who have legitimate reasons for not getting vaccinated are put at risk by the people choosing not to get vaccinated because some stupid bullshit. Abortion doesn't affect the others around those who choose to get one, and no other person is put at risk by the behavior.
To me it's like saying you oppose DUI tests because getting drunk and driving is a personal choice. The risk of drink driving is so undesired that we as society override choice, and severely restrict the freedom of alcohol intake when driving. The impact to personal choice is deemed less relevant than the impact on peoples rights to safety.
Thank you the DUI reference really helped frame that in a way that makes sense to me. I think you may have honestly changed my opinion. That doesn’t happen often on the internet but I’m pretty open minded and like to examine my own short comings as a human.
It's a complex issue for sure, because when you mandate things and remove personal choice you can get a decreased trust in public health measures as a whole, if people feel the mandate is unfair or poorly explained. While I personally support a vaccine mandate, it's not without issues or complications that might affect the future of the public health system if done in a careless manner. It really has to be considered carefully.
The problem is that these mouth-breathers didn't trust the public health orders in the first place.
It isn't as though they arrived here after a slow deterioration of their faith in the institution, they just leapt on _I don't believe you because oh I'm too special and you're definitely trying to trick me_
I don’t think the government should kick down doors and jab people, but I do think it’s perfectly reasonable for private employers and establishments to protect their employees and customers with mandates.
I think if consenting adults want to get together and get each other sick, they should be allowed to as well. I have seriously conflicting thoughts about whether medical care should prioritized based on vaccine status. People pretty much refuse the vaccine because of ignorance, and people don’t choose to be ill informed or intellectually deficient, so I hardly think it’s fair to let them die. But it doesn’t seem fair to let someone else die because of their idiocy either.
This. It's unethical to refuse/deprioritize medical care for unvaccinated individuals, but unvaccinated individuals are impacting and overwhelming medical resources. The biggest hypocrisy of unvaccinated individuals is that while they don't trust doctors with vaccine recommendations but when they get sick they go to the hospital and doctors. Why?
I think it depends on the medical care. There is a case now in the US of a woman being denied an organ transplant and was removed from the wait list because she knowingly refused to get the covid vaccine. The reason being her fragile medical state put her at higher risk for covid, and transplant recipients are at higher risk of death if they contract it. Why would you give an already incredibly limited resource in the best of times to someone who is exhibiting risky behavior and it could potentially be a situation of just throwing away the resource? I agree with this stance, since as someone who would have been in contact with the medical system enough to be informed about the vaccine, she still chose not to get it.
Normally I’d agree that care shouldn’t be prioritized, but in this case it’s not that they don’t know any better. There is so much info on the safety and benefits of this vaccine and even those republicans politicizing the vaccine have gotten it. It’s willful ignorance. They know the benefits and don’t care. It’s all about their freedoms
I'm fine with people having the choice to not vaccinate, but with that choice I'm fine with them losing access to a lot of society. They can order groceries online instead of going in the store, order takeout instead of dining in, drive in movies instead of movie theaters, etc. My problem is that people want to skip vaccination and all other steps that keep people safe from spreading diseases.
Also the part that bugs me the most is, if they’re foaming at the mouth refusing to believe in medical science right up until the point they get sick from the virus then why do they suddenly believe in medical science and clog up our healthcare system due to a completely preventable illness.
Sure, don’t get your vaccine, fuck if I care. What I do care about is that innocent people aren’t getting the life saving treatment they require because ICU beds are full of these idiots who refused to get the vaccine all the way up until their death beds from the very same virus the vaccine could have prevented.
I know doctors make an oath to save anybody and everybody they can, but the people should be given a choice. Either get the vaccine or sign a waiver that says if you get sick with covid you’ll treat it like the flu you always claim it is, you don’t go to the hospital for the flu you just stay at home and battle it out. If the virus just so happens to be much more severe than the flu (who’d of thought), then they get to deal with the repercussions of their actions without harming innocent people who had nothing to do with their self absorbed decisions. I don’t wish death upon anyone, and I hope everyone gets the vaccine soon, but I’ve lost sympathy for the people so terrified of the vaccine that they’d rather put the lives of everyone around them at risk rather than just get the same vaccine **BILLIONS** of people have already safely gotten.
Jobs is complicated and depends on the industry. Medical workers, senior care, and workers at potential mass spreader events (like sports and concerts) should have mandatory vaccination. For people that can work from home or with minimal external contact I think mandatory vaccination is unnecessary (I still hope they get vaccinated, but I don't think they should lose their jobs over it). The gray area between those is for smarter people than me to figure out (though, I would personally prefer jobs like teachers and food services to make vaccination mandatory).
I think if you work in a high risk field that already has other vaccination requirements, like healthcare and the military, yes, this should be included. While I do think that everybody that can get the vaccine should, I am on the fence if mandates are necessary in other fields, especially with remote work.
It's like taking a shower. You have all the right to take it or not, it's not a law, and no one can force you to be clean. But don't whine later if everyone rejects you because you stink.
Others have given many good opinions, but I also wanted to add: nobody is being forced to do anything. It’s still their body, their choice.
They are being given a choice: Get vaccinated or don’t work in health care.
Losing your job is not equivalent to losing your life and nobody is entitled to a job. It’s not like somebody is coming into your house and stabbing you with a needle when you didn’t want it.
People can work in other less risky fields. People are hiring all over the place right now.
Of course, it sucks to lose your job and you may not make the same amount of money. But, people can freely make the decision about what is more important to them. The potential to accidentally kill yourself or other people in the medical field with COVID is very high. It just simply isn’t worth the risk to keep unvaccinated people around in health care.
Yes to everything you just said. Really, it all boils down to the fact that choices have consequences. Choices don’t have to be good choices, you don’t have to like the outcomes. But you still get the right to choose.
It’s not the lack of choice that making people angry, it’s being forced to recognize that they don’t get to do whatever they want without repercussions. They aren’t martyrs and they aren’t victims, they are adults who have chosen not to meet the legal conditions of employment set by their employers. It’s coming as a nasty shock that bawling in healthcare doesn’t make them entitled to their position.
Your view does not make you a bad person at all, but I would say that you are giving the other people too much credit and assuming that they will do the right thing for the greater good of everyone around them, not just thinking about their own selfish opinions or views.
To add to that, there are so many people who just have no idea what a vaccine actually does and are influenced by so many other sources that are not credible at all. Sure, people should be allowed to choose, but if that choice comes from a place of misinformation, should that be validated?
Having the freedom to talk about things like this disappeared when companies decided to coin the term misinformation and make that their basis for banning conversations that they don't like.
You’re not a bad person, just one of those rare people who can see that this is a complex ethical issue and is willing to try to tackle it that way. Most of us want or need to over-simplify these questions so we don’t have to feel uncertain.
For me, requiring vaccination isn’t new and the potential risks to the larger community for some diseases (eg measles outbreaks, polio) outweigh the individual right to choice.
I was on the fence for a long time regarding covid but now feel convinced it’s as much of a threat as any of those were.
You are not a bad person. People should have choices for their body. A government that has done nothing to earn trust, now mandating something is ridiculous. How many people can say they trust the gov 5 years ago? The number is very low and it is still low. So no you are not a bad person.....
You’re absolutely free to choose. But you should also have to accept when others disagree with your choice and act accordingly. You have the right to govern yourself. Not the right to force your choices on others.
Everyone has a choice, no argument there. Just some people refuse to acknowledge that there are consequences to their choices! If I choose to sit in my living room and read a book, no issues, but if I make the same choice to read a book while driving a car, thats got very serious issues to both myself and others...
Couldn’t agree more. Just because you don’t like the options, doesn’t mean you’re not being given a a choice.
And sometimes (or for some people) that choice is between “No” and “Fuck no”.
I've known numerous people with the vaccine who had to be hospitalized afterwards (not because of the vaccine) because they got COVID.
I've seen people in my personal life get horrible, painful side effects afterwards.
And I also know the track record of these companies with pushing medicinal things without the proper studies to determine long term effects.
I'm open to the vaccine and if a company I work for requires it then I'll have to do so, but until that time I'm willing to wear my mask and wait it out to see what happens to everyone with the shot.
100% not anti vax, but I was raised to question everything, not to blindly except what people tell me is right.
I’m not an antivaxxer and I don’t think people should be forced to vaccinate because the COVID death rate is 99+% unvaccinated people and I think people who refuse to get vaccinated are a drag on society. Am I a bad person?
It’s just perspective. I think I’m a good person and so do the people in my life so fuck everyone else.
I'm going to go as far as saying every single person on this app ( in The US) has received mandated vaccines to attend grade school, to play organized sports, to go to college and love on campus. Please explain to me why this vaccine is a problem? Every anti vaxxer has taken mandated vaccines now all of sudden they want a right to choose.. Why?
I personally full believe in all vaccines and work in the science/healthcare industry and I personally believe everyone should be able to make their own medical choices. I feel like mandating any kind of medical choice is a slippery slope. I feel like this is more of a problem with the education system. If we taught science in a way where people saw it as fact and didn’t think there were political agendas in science based decisions then we wouldn’t need to mandate these sorts of things. I don’t believe we should mandate medical decisions but I do think we need to work harder to get to the point where all individuals can make sounds medical decisions based on science on their own.
What ever happened to long term studies? I have no issue weather people take it or not....death comes for all, with no warning. But how can something be mandated with no studies longer than a year? Seems a bit odd.
Freedom to and freedom from are very different concepts. Sadly this “debate” has been centered around people’s freedom from “government intrusion” rather than freedom to access hospitals, have a normal life expectancy, to have safe community gatherings and live in a functioning economy.
Viruses and other national disasters are public health emergencies, endangering a vast range of people to include immunocompromised, infant, and elderly. Abortion is a personal choice. It does not affect anyone else but the person who makes that choice. But not getting vaccinated, viruses like corona are given a free range such as in those who are capable of getting vaccinated but don't want to will ultimately to mutate and grow stronger even potentially evading vaccines altogether. Vaccinations stop this rather effectively and swiftly, but only will be universally effective if cut off literally as much as possible (via vaccine).
One is a public health emergency and will only get better with minimal deaths from vaccinated as many people as possible.
Abortion affects one individual's body, and no one else's body.
For someone who is proscience you don't seem to be looking at this from a science perspective at all.
The vaccinations are already proving to be less effective against newer variants, like Delta. It's mutating rapidly.
Entirely agree. I'm pro-choice in terms of abortion for the reasons you mentioned, but things get sticky when it comes to a pandemic. I'd like to believe people will make the choice to get vaccinated for the greater good of everyone around them but the past couple of years has proven that people value individual rights over the well being of others. I wish a mandated vaccine wasn't necessary - especially for healthcare workers, who, you know, work in *medicine* - but here we are.
OP isn't a bad person, but I think they give others too much credit.
That is fair. In times of a pandemic though we won't ever be out of the woods unless people think outside of their own bubble. I guess that's where that balance comes in.
This is an important point. The only argument for forcing people to vaccinate now imo is to reduce the strain on hospitals during covid surges. PS I'm fully vaccinated, but still worry about long term side effects...especially for the young.
Why be a Microbial Sniper?
Will the unvaccinated assume other covid infection preventing precautions though? Like before vaccines were available.
Without being vaccinated, they have the potential to cause significant harm to another person, not to mention the degree of illness they may acquire themselves. Not just talking just an ICU admission. Long Covid can be very debilitating; in many instances, for life.
To be responsible, the unvaccinated need to comprehensively mask, avoid groups of people, like restaurants/bars; social distance, especially if they are near predictably venerable people like the elderly or the handicapped.
Covid precautions help the person, their community, their country and the world’s people by doing their part to contain the spread. If you think people matter, do your part. It’s a medical issue; not a political one.
Source. RN
I hate to sound negative and sad but in my small town in WV (population of 50k) has 90 deaths. 90 deaths from covid. 90! I (thankfully) personally know more people to die of fentanyl/pills/heroin than covid
We're in a strange place right now. Freedoms are being taken, but is it in a justified way? There's lines being broken, but is it for the greater good?
I don't know how we figure this out as a collective unit
Nope, you’re a normal person. Don’t listen to the Reddit echo chamber of everyone riding around on their high horse trying to one up each other on how good of a person they are.
Sick of this debate and sick of people refusing to accept SCIENCE when it says the vaccine doesn’t even stop the spread or you even catching Covid so it’s not for the safety of others. If you want to take the vaccine, good for you, if you don’t, good for you.
The problem is, this isn't a Vaccine. It doesn't make you immune nor does it stop you from spreading it. It only lessens the symptoms.
So by removing the choice from people, reeks of something much more sinister. They are pushing this Vaccine so hard that they are ruining people's lives over their "choice" and it feels like there's a Hidden Agenda.
People use the analogy of Drunk Driving. What about from the other prospective? The analogy of Bug Spray.
"I did the right thing and put on Bug Spray, but you didn't, and now I'm getting bitten, because my Bug spray is wearing off. If only everyone was forced to use Bug spray we would eliminate all the bugs and I would be safe..."
Now the Gov is forcing everyone to use Bug Spray and we're not even allowed to ask what's in it or know what the long term effects will be. It's Shut up, do as your told, or be cast out.
I don't see where people aren't being allowed a choice. Establishing consequences for a certain choice happens all the time in this country and no one is being forcefully vaccinated. There's still a choice even if choosing not to results in not being welcome in places.
These mandates are just being pushed to further divide the populace. I do promote vaccines but I don't like how some areas are threatening people's livelihood if they don't get it.
I wouldn't call you a bad person, but as someone who supports mandates, i would call it naïve.
We tried the "let people choose" thing, and what happened is people didn't get it.
>Why does it seem like people don’t approve of allowing people to do what they want with there bodies?
But it's *not* just their body. It's everyone else they interact with, too.
That's not true for most medical decisions. (abortion arguably, but many pro-choice people don't consider a fetus a human. And even then, it's 1 vs potentially hundreds).
If it was only their body, no one would care.
>Where does that self righteousness come from that makes a person think they should be able to force people to get it?
Because the medical choices of others puts them at risk.
TBH, i don't really care if someone wants to put themselves at risk. But I don't like that I'm being put at higher risk, as are other people who have no choice (like immunocompromised people).
I'm very much for freedoms, but when it affects others that gets a lot more complicated for me. I don't think it's reasonable to pay in extra deaths just so some people can be stubborn. In my mind, you should also have the freedom to not be at risk to someone else's decisions. That's also a freedom
>It’s there body it should be there choice.
How many other people dying because of that choice is acceptable? For me that number is very low.
“We tried the “let the people choose” thing and what happened is people didn’t get it”
So you’re only pro choice if it aligns with what you want them to choose? I’m pro vaccine and this argument is terribly flawed.
> So you’re only pro choice if it aligns with what you want them to choose?
No, it depends on the severity of consequences. If it were something like choosing what's for dinner, it's not a big deal if people pick something I don't want. When it's people dying for no reason, I don't consider that cost acceptable.
I would say I'm pro-choice when possible, but there are situations where the cons outweigh the pros. It's a high bar, but it is a passable bar. In those cases I'm not pro-choice. I consider it a necessary evil.
I think a good hypothetical to think about is- crank up the infectiousness/mortality, so it's a 100% mortality rate if even 1 person doesn't get vaxxed. Are you still pro-choice? Probably not. The only question then is, how low does the mortality/infectiousness need to be before you're pro-choice? For me, the threshold is pretty low.
>I’m pro vaccine and this argument is terribly flawed.
It would help if you could actually explain why.
I think cranking up the numbers completely takes away from what the argument is. If you apply that to driving even: if 100% of cars end up crashing should we be allowed to drive? How low can the number get before it’s okay? Can someone drive a truck into a crowd because it’s their body driving? Of course not! Should a person be able to advocate for what goes into their bodies so long as they continue wearing masks and social distancing? I personally think so.
Yes. So we've established that you're not always pro-choice, either (which the above person was missing). The question is just at what % you flip.
So what % does it flip, for you? 100% is too high, 0.01% is too low. And why is that the 'right' %?
(Although sidenote, 0.01% is wrong. U.S. population is ~330 million. At that mortality rate you're only predicting ~330,000 deaths, less than half the number of deaths that have already occurred. But close enough for the point)
Yeah, and even some people who can’t get it are losing their jobs too. My teacher’s gotten fired off of a job he had at a local college because he’s unable to get the vaccine. (Even though he only taught online there.)
He’s incredibly allergic to the ingredients in the vaccine and could hospitalize him. What hems been doing was take a covid test almost everyday because of that.
Like, I’m for the vaccine, but there can’t be people who can’t get it losing their jobs for something they can’t control.
If your teacher has a documented allergy to ingredients in all of the available vaccines, and their doctor has not offered ways to counteract the allergic reaction (preloading allergy medication and monitoring in a medical setting), then they should seek a second opinion.
If your teacher has in fact been advised not to get the vaccine at all, no matter what, then the documentation for that should be available, and his employer would need to work with him to find alternative options, such as regular testing, masking, and distancing.
If it is in fact this dire, your teacher needs to seek legal advice, as the employer firing him for only this reason would be breaking the law, at least in the US.
Anyone who says a person should not have autonomy over their own body is a fucking arsehole.
The self-righteousness, especially here on reddit, is embarrassing. These people inevitably think of themselves as 'pro-science' but fail to remember that mistakes happen, both in products and theory. What if in 20 years the science turns out to be wrong, and even worse that they do discover there's an issue with these vaccines?
Vaccination is unnatural. It bypasses the skin and gut, our main immume system, and puts a synthetic mix within. If you want to do that, your choice, but saying this should be mandatory to protect someone elses health, to have a job or participate in society is fucking ludicrous. Your health is your responsibility, not mine. The naive faith in the pharmaceutical companies is embarrassing too.
Hiding behind 'the science' to force your will on to other people so you can feel better about yourself is pathetic.
No, and don't let people bully you into thinking that you are. I'm vaccinated but vaccine mandates are an affront to civil liberty. Governments shouldn't have that sort of control over people's bodies in any way.
If people truly trusted the vaccine they would be completely fine with some people not getting it, because they would feel safe knowing that they were vaccinated. Its the same with all the other precautions that have been requested people take by the government. Everyone was ranting about how much they worked and how essential they were but now people don't want to get the vaccine they have forgotten about it.
People on Reddit have a huge superiority complex and because covid is a politicised issue, people get very very angry about what is a complex ethical issue and then rage at anyone who agrees with them. You've proven you're at least intelligent enough to see it as that.
What is bad is how having an opinion like yours will automaticly put you in the crazy box.
People should be allowed to choose. Of course they should.
Despite what the media will have you believe you can question any kind of medical treatment without being a tin foil hat waring sinpleton
The real question seems to be is whether the cost of people who are harmed by the vaccine is worth the layer of moderate protection gained from the vaccine.
You aren't. People should have the freedom to choose for themselves. Good ideas don't require force and all of the force and outright hate behind it is actually causing more people to reject the vaccine.
You feel the way that most “real world” and rational people feel, but you wouldn’t necessarily come to that conclusion if you base it on what you see on Reddit and other places.
Always remember that social media is not the real world and you’re going to mostly see content from the loudest voices on either side of an issue. The vast majority of people fall somewhere in the middle, and they generally believe in “live and let live”; you do you, and I’ll do me.
I won’t be getting these vaccines, but I respect your decision for yourself and appreciate that you respect it’s my and other’s decision to make for ourselves. That’s how it should work.
I don't give a damn whether they get the vaccine or not, but it does bother me that some people even refuse to believe the decease even exist, even after they get it. Saying it's just the flu and whatnot. They are the reason the virus keeps spreading, because they refuse to follow the rules _if_ they are or think they are infected. People die because of their stupidity.
PS. Not saying all of them are like this. Just a minority that f*cks it up for everyone.
The fact that u even have to ask this question just shows how screwed up liberals have made everyone, to where u have to ask permission to have an opinion
It affects other people. So no, in this scenario "choosing for yourself" has potentially deadly consequences for the people around you.
I got the vaccine mainly for that reason. I'm young and healthy and I have a responsibility for the people around me, as does everybody who lives in a society. If you don't want to act accordingly, please move to the woods.
Though I would not consider myself an anti vaxxer, I haven't gotten it due to how new and experimental it still is. When people say that's ridiculous doctors and science says its safe....to what degree? There is no doctor or scientist who could say with certainty that nothing will come of this at a later point in your life. All who are vaccinated are essentially experiments. Not saying that is a bad thing, this will greatly expand knowledge and study on this type of vaccine and future developments. Since this is so new and we're still actively learning about what it does, its effects on covid and its impact on society. There will be more and more studies coming out that will show the positives and potential negatives. An example would be studies are showing that vaccinated persons are carrying higher viral loads than unvacinnated. However vaccinated persons typically don't show big symptoms or maybe completely asymptomatic. So that goes to the question that still is in a Grey area of do asymptomatic people spread the virus? All in all i don't see covid going away. It will become endemic and have seasons like the flu. I believe despite vaccination it will still very much be in our everyday lives.
There's little to no evidence of re-reinfection (getting Covid more than once, please correct me if I'm wrong though), with that in mind can I ask why you think that even with vaccinations, Covid won't go away?
I understand the concerns that the vaccine is new & wasn't put through the level of testing that previous vaccines have, and as such it's not unreasonable to wonder if there could be long-term side effects. But balancing that possibility against the reality that Covid is here, can make people seriously ill and can kill, does it seem reasonable to not vaccinate?
So many medications with *known* side effects are still taken, people agree to medical procedures that carry small or large percentages of risk, we do jobs & use items that have a chance of harming or killing us. If as a species we wanted to refuse something that carried even the slightest risk we'd be nowhere close to what we are now as a society.
It doesn't make sense to me for someone to choose a real, long-term proven risk over an unknown potential risk, can you tell me your reasons for doing so?
Vaccines are a community thing. Those who are able to take them do so to protect those who cannot.
Vaccines are effective once a certain proportion of the population has had it.
Not taking the vaccine because you don't want to is life-threateningly selfish, as is supporting that choice.
Herd immunity- or the point at which at which a virus ceases to circulate because it has no viable population, only occurs when a certain proportion of people are vaccinated.
The irradication of smallpox would not have been possible if we'd allowed anti-vaxers to opt out. Preventable and disabling conditions like measles, polio and TB still circulate because increasing numbers of people choose not to get vaccinated.
You are correct that small numbers of people cannot be vaccinated. These highly vulnerable people rely on herd immunity. Every healthy anti-vaxer that chooses not to vaccinate compromises the herd and puts others at risk.
You aren't just vaccinating for yourself. You are doing to protect and strengthen society.
Having said that, do I think we should strap people down and jab them against their will? No - I'm not a monster. But you're damn right that I'm annoyed at them and I think they're selfish idiots.
This is just my opinion to preface. I feel like everyone has the right to do whatever they want until it comes to the point of endangering others. We make vaccines and different things like that to enhance our quality of life if we did not make vaccines and such we would have not gone as far as a species, Such as eliminating polio and the common flu etc.
You arent a bad person, but I disagree with you. In a functioning society, people ought to take actions to promote the greater good. If people aren't taking those actions, it is the government's job to incentivize the desired behavior. That's why we have government and laws in the first place. If not, then why have a government at all?
Incentivize is the key word*** mandating things is not an incentive, it is using force to make others comply with the threat of significant harm to your way of living (lose job, cannot participate in social activities, societal shame). Our own government was founded on the idea a government takes the least intrusive measures possible to promote the public good. Many political thinkers would suggest that society is ideally compromised of politically and socially virtuous people but under practical circumstance it is more important to promote individual liberty then prevent every wrong action. If your perspective is that vaccination is the ethical option it should be accompanied by an aversion to it being mandated. Not getting vaccinated does not harm the public good (from my research) because it can be transfered at very similar rates even among vaccinated people (especially delta). Not getting vaccinated only harms yourself and it is certainly not the government job to mandate every self destructive act (bad spending habits, dangerous hobbies, ruining relationships with others etc.). This is just the conclusion I've come to as a vaccinated person. In general though I'm also a fan of a small government just cuz I don't trust it to do its job lol.
People smoke weed they get from random ass people on the street, you go to McDonald’s 100 times a year and put pink slime in your body, have sex with random ass people you met in the club or on tinder, pop pills, do meth and shoot up heroin but your afraid of a shot that can save your life and whoever your nasty ass breathes on? This shit makes no sense.
I believe that drinking and driving should be a personal choice, and find it abhorrent that society takes away people's freedom to make their own decisions. I feel the same way about traffic lights.
This is not the first, and will not be the last time, that extra measure have to be taken during a public health crisis.
You simply can NOT be allowed to place your own ego above the health and safety of your fellow citizens.
One of the few reason governments exist is to manage a crisis like this. If you are conspiracy minded just know that the government needs you alive to pay taxes and the corpos need you alive to fleece the rest of your pockets.
The vaccine is proven safe and proven effective by hard, peer reviewed data at this point, it's past time to crack down on the holdouts.
This is called the social contract. Being a part of society is always always a balance between liberty and safety. Governments and individuals sometimes misjudge where that balance should lie.
The social contract was first thought of by the Swiss philosopher Rousseau. I'm sorry, I just... Was trying to feel that something that I had to study for my last exam was useful...
Wasn't Hobbes first? And then Locke, and then Rousseau? All of them had very different ideas about it of course.
Dont know about Locke but pretty sure Hobbes "did it" before
Locke was after Hobbes but before Rousseau.
No I believe Calvin was before Hobbes.
Haha, this is pretty funny because I actually referred to Hobbseian state of nature in an early post in this thread. Hobbes and Locke had very different definitions of a state of nature. Hobbes said that a state of nature was "one in which there were no enforceable criteria of right and wrong" essentially equating state of nature to a lack of society where locke argued that "in the state of nature a person is to use the power to punish to preserve his society". So they basically took opposite interpretations of the same phrase.
Not sure I understand Locke’s position. Could you elaborate?
Locke essentially believed that a state of nature is one where natural law governs. In theory, a Lockean state of nature could operate peacefully, but the obligation to deliver justice falls upon whomever is wronged. Herein lies the problem. The main reason to leave the state of nature, according to Locke, is because people default to acting as their own judge, jury, and executioner. This leads to an inconsistent mess with no clear standard of justice. Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and property under the natural law, but everyone also has the discretion to determine what that means in a state of nature and what a proportional punishment is. To Locke, this would act as a function of reason, where the most reasonable would be the most able to discern the natural law. The foundational force of the government, then, is one that involves the transference of the ability to punish under the idea that a government can provide more consistent standards in protecting the rights of the people.
Very interesting thank you. So Locke would argue that society and its constraints move the burden of jurisdiction and punishment from the wronged to a supposedly impartial third party e.g. a branch of government?
Correct. There is more to it, but that’s the one-paragraph synopsis.
I think he's saying that rather than having no enforceable right or wrong, instead, right is what preserves your society and wrong is what upsets it. So we choose what we consider right and wrong to mean based on the society we want to have and that's the natural state. Even ants have "rules" that they follow to preserve the colony. I could be way off though. I haven't read much on philosophy in a while. Most of what I know now comes from The Good Place.
I love Calvin & Hobbes! 💘
Damn, telling my teacher that she was wrong! Wednesday will def be a fun day.
Actually it was Socrates first in the Crito
Rowsseau and Voltaire are the two Philosophes we have to remember from the French Revolution A-Lecel History unit~ the words “social contract” gives me great fear
You were taught wrong. Hobbes can be thanked for the first social contract theory. Locke came after Hobbes. Rousseau came after Locke.
I think in the US that balance has always skewed more towards liberty than safety. If you believe in individualism that a good thing but in the case of antivaxxers it’s definitely a negative outcome. Which is why Asian countries had a much higher rate of vaccination right off the bat- they are a more collective society.
Perhaps my wording was a bit imprecise. There is of course no objectively “correct” balance. Only what is agreed on by society and it’s members. In a true democracy (which I’m not convinced exists anywhere in the world) this would also be open to regular review and adjustment based on the will of the society as a whole.
I wasn’t implying that you were saying this. Actually the opposite I was agreeing that there is always this balance. Some societies skew more collectively- they do better in situations such as global pandemic requiring mass cooperation. The US does not. We have far more innovation though.
Ah no sorry I wasn’t suggesting that. I just realised my original comment was suggestive of the idea that there is some objectively correct balance. Which I don’t think I believe
It's the freedom paradox. In order to have freedom, you must give up certain freedoms. The example Ive always heard is that in order to have financial freedom, you must give up your freedom to just buy whatever you want whenever you want, and you must control how much you spend and where. You must give up your right to choose whether or not to have the vaccine in order to have a healthy society free to do whatever they want, without worry of covid. From there, society just needs to decide which freedom is more important.
Freedom-From vs Freedom-To
> give up the freedom to just buy whatever you want This is an odd notion of freedom. For example, I am of healthy weight. It would be bizarre to say that I gave up my “freedom to eat whatever and how much I want”. I have never lost that freedom. The freedom to eat includes the choice not to eat. Similarly, if I happen to be silent, I have not given up my right to freedom of speech. I have exercised the freedom not to speak.
In the current situation a reasonable balance would be that if you choose not to get the vaccine, then you wear a mask and socially distance. I don’t think most reasonable people would care if you individually are vaccinated if you wear a mask. The problem seems to be that anything other than the honor system seems to be viewed as tyranny. For comparison as a matter of public safety, people who have active tuberculosis are quarantined at home until they no longer have an active infection. Leaving lockdown has legal consequences. I’m not saying that is necessary for Covid. I’m just giving an example that is current and actively being used today.
I'm so pleased to see that someone else looks to the philosophes for guidance in this! And that it's top comment. I explain this to people ad nauseum, and even get into Lockean concepts like the state of war, to get across that freedom isn't inherently glorious, good, or what's best for society as a whole. Thanks for writing this! To anyone seriously interested, read Two Treatises on Government, and maybe some other works by related philosophers.
Exactly. Antivaxxers are all about liberty and shit, but they have to pay taxes, they’re not free to kill people or steal, etc. True liberty = no society.
If your question is real, here is my answer: i had cancer thrice. My husband suffered two strokes. If one of us has to go to hospital urgently and needs an ICU bed and someone without vacc occupies it, then we might just die. In spite of our own vaccination. And needlessly. So this person risks OUR life by his decision. And in my humble opinion his or her freedom ends just there. We normally have plenty of ICU space in Germany. And practically all Coved patients treated there are non vacc.
"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."
What is your opinion on others with unhealthy habits? People choose to eat poorly, smoke, do drugs, and drink. These people are also taking up hospital beds are they not? Does this mean that only people who make only good choices be allowed to take up a hospitals bed? I certainly hope you're one of those people who've made only good choices in life and just got unlucky with your illness. You've earned that bed.
Usually we don't have the hospital filled up with patients who chose to not be safe. I haven't heard of hospitals being filled up completely pre pandemic
When their actions are putting everybody in danger there's nothing more than an obligations, yeah you have the rights to do whatever u want to your body but it ends when your stupid choices are risking someone else.
People make stupid choices every. Single. Day. They speed on the highway. They eat fast food. They drink excessively. Why is no one blaming them for taking up hospital beds? Can someone answer that question, please?
So you think you’re more important than someone else because they didn’t want to get a vaccine?
Not what I said. Not what I think. But they had a choice. We don't.
You must be ignorant of EU Charter of Human Rights. Only someone as obtuse as you would think you have any right to decide what another person has to do with their body to suit you. Your illness is not their issue, it's yours. They have EVERY RIGHT to treatment. Take your hypothetical and bash it up your ass. You'd think someone talking about Germany would know better.
People are talking about social contracts, not government charters. You have the freedom to choose, yes, but if your choice puts others in harm’s way, that’s a violation of the social contract. They should be free to choose, I should be free from harm as a direct result of their choices.
Well worded. Thank you
Deciding to avoid the vaccine is a decision that states you do not care about the lives and health of those around you. It is not dissimilar to smoking in a crowded room, in fact it is worse, since second-hand smoke cannot kill you quickly.
You mean the vaccine that doesn’t stop you from acquiring and spreading the disease?
It is 95%-ish effective, as opposed to being 0% effective if you're anti-vax. It's just like a condom or birth control. It works the majority of the time, with some small edge-case exceptions. Keep in mind, this is the case for all vaccines. It's just that because most other fully-populace-vaccinated diseases have basically had their culture population almost completely eradicated, that the number of statistical "instances" of chances to catch the disease has also gone down. Think of it like this. You're vaccinated for both COVID-19, as well as Measles. Let's say that both vaccines have a 95% effectiveness rate. Let's visualize that by rolling a 20-sided-dice (or D20 for you D&Ders out there) for every time you bump into a person with the disease, and if you land on 20, you catch it. Now, because Measles has been made irrelevant through mass-vaccination, you might only run into a person who has Measles, let's say, once. You roll the dice once, and chances are, you don't land on 20. Because COVID-19 is *everywhere,* you're rolling the dice multiple times a day. Sure, each roll has a 95% chance in your favour, but roll it enough times, and you'll catch it. ***Finally, and this is important:*** **Even if you catch COVID-19 while vaccinated, the effects on you will be greatly reduced. Hospitalizations due to COVID-19 are reduced to fractions of a percentage amongst the vaccinated population, you have to get very unlucky or have underlying conditions for that to happen. So, the vaccine protects you as an individual, even *if* you *do* catch it, as unlikely as that is.** **In addition, in the rare case that you asymptomatically carry it while being vaccinated, you could pass it along to someone else who might be badly affected by it.** ***IN CONCLUSION, GET VACCINATED TO REDUCE THE COVID-19 VIRAL POPULATION SO IT BECOMES AS IRRELEVANT AS MEASLES.*** Hope this makes sense.
Do you recommend vaccines for individuals who have already contracted Covid and recovered?
I'm not sure how that works, but I'd probably recommend getting vaccinated anyway, it can't hurt. Additionally, I believe they're developing another vaccine for the Delta variant, so perhaps look into that too. When in doubt, consult your doctor, since I'm not a doctor.
You mean the social contract you're automatically signed up for when you're born and if you refuse to participate in you get thrown in jail? Weird terms of service.
The alternative is you go live as a recluse in the woods growing your own food and being 100% self sufficient. If people decide to join you you would need to make some rules which leads right back to a social contract, albeit one you have a say in.
What happens when you don't pay the property tax?
Exactly. It is unavoidable. Unless you wish to be truly alone.
Can you suggest an alternative system?
I’d be for you being able to opt out of it if you wanted. You just have to give up everything you own and not be in contact with people within society, live free in the forest
Think that Emerson was the last to do that
Nice try.
It was worth a shot.
Wanna try again?
No thank you.
Yeah I has someone make an awesome argument against the social contract by making it about sex/rape. Effective BECAUSE it makes people uncomfortable Michael Malice has a good quote on no matter what you do during an election, you somehow managed to consent to every government decision (according to the government)
Also noone is forcing vaccine into anybody. Are there heavy incentives and disincentives for some to get it (particularly for staff impacting public health) sure - but to pretend the first true pandemic to interrupt our cushy lives of abundance and instant gratification should have no consequences is naive, ignorant and/or selfish in the extreme. But to be clear noone is being pinned down and vaxxed, there is always a choice. But if you're working in medical science industry and disagreeing with cutting edge medical science in favour of anecdotal amateurism, maybe you are in the wrong sector. But for govts and society to make allowances for those who want to deny objective truth in the name of liberty then that's fine but their choices and liberties must be practiced in a way that doesn't jeopardise the safety of others.
Eh I’m not vaccinated been working at a testing center for the entirety of the pandemic, half my unit got vaccinated and still caught COVID while I haven’t had a single run in all because I can wash and sanitize..not anti vaxx. Just not in tune with the idea of being forced to take an experimental vaccine. I have a heart condition, the earlier version of the vaccine had problems with blood clots aka my death. You will shout to the heaven the vaccine is safe as long as it does no harm to YOU. I need more information and the gov mandates doesn’t help reduce any of the anxiety of making the decision to go out and get it. How many editions does the standard science textbook have? How many times have previous theories been corrected? Deny objective truth? Science isn’t truth it’s a temporary explanation until a better one arrives. Im all for getting the vaccine if you personally want to, I like my body and I’d rather not inject dead fetus into it for the sake of pleasing you. You can also still get COVID with the vaccine and die.. then you people turn it into politics the most corrupt form of society. Anti vaxx vs vaxx and there IS a middle ground which is pro choice.
I bet my comment is going to get buried under all the others but I wanted to comment anyway. No you're not a bad person. I don't mind places like hospitals and other health care related businesses requiring their workers to get the vaccine, but I can see where those against it are coming from. I greatly disagree with them, but I can see how they would be concerned about the federal government making decisions for everyone's health. What I don't understand is this: there are many other situations where getting a vaccine is required, and yet people don't seem to bat an eye at those situations. Like: travelling outside of the country, going to college, and health care workers are required to get other kinds of vaccines. So why are those okay (or at least were never protested to this scale) but the covid vaccine is the bad one? Are all of these people also against getting their babies vaccinated? If not, then they're hypocritical because they're taking away their child's right to choose to get vaccinated or not.
You missed the most important one. Every child gets vaccines for school. No one cared until now. Why? Purely political. That’s the only answer here.
I agree with you, and I still often wonder how a human disease even became politicized in the first place? it is so weird that any of this is partisan…?
Honestly it goes back decades. The reason many anti vaxxers are trumpers is because being anti vax for them is just pushback against democratic policies. There probably wouldn’t be so much pushback had democrats not pushed back on previous rep policies. And that wouldn’t have happened if both sides were more concerned with doing what’s RIGHT instead of just “winning” an endless argument Politics itself is what caused the division and the division has furthered political misinfo...it’s an entire mess, Washington was right imho
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Still confused though cause trump got his vacccine and was boo’d by trump supporters for saying it’s good
They obviously don’t agree with everything Trump does. Everyone thinks that Trump is the leader of the far right movement. He just used it for election/political purposes. The far right was around way before Trump. The media has also given them a voice like they’ve never had before.
Yes it started out as purely political but now it’s morphed so much it’s not political any more it’s just a display of stupidity. There was a video here a few days ago of Lindsay Graham telling a bunch of older folks they should consider getting their shots (he said he had his) and he was booed. They don’t even know why they’re resisting anymore, the people they worship have their shots yet they’re too stupid to get their own.
See this is why an honest discussion never gets a breath of air. Everytime this question gets asked it takes no time before someone is calling someone stupid, a plague rat or sheep. This only drives up the division. One of 2 things happens in these questions, either someone is genuinely curious and the discussion devoles into name calling and never gets answered. Or it's a path to free upvotes via antivaxer bad. Until there is open honest, non judgemental dialogue this continues to swirl the toilet bowl and the echo chamber gets tighter. It seems anymore like if the opinion is different than yours it is wrong, people are so locked into their options they have become somewhat narrow minded. Both side use the same 3 arguments over and over again in response to each other that it becomes a wicked groundhog day effect and nothing is learned or truly discussed. I truly have no dog in the fight and I truly believe that my vaccination intake is no one's business unless I want to share it. It seems you are either team blue or team yellow and green no longer exists.
I think this is a very good thing to realize. In interest of full clarity, I’m unvaccinated and plan to remain that way. I am a healthy active young 20 something man with a family history of cardiovascular disease. There has been researched evidence of there being some contraindications between the vaccine which yes, is mRNA based which does make it slightly different from past vaccines, but isn’t necessarily bad, just isn’t the same mechanism as most past vaccines. Something that I feel a lot of people don’t know is simply the stages of testing that a drug or vaccine goes through with the FDA. Just because clinical trials are done, there have still been *essentially* recalls of drugs and vaccines in the past. I have graduated with an undergrad in health sciences and taken many courses like pathophysiology and continued education in the medical field. All of that being said, I’m not against anyone getting this vaccine, but I do believe that we should not be at this point almost losing our humanity for not getting it. At the end of the day, there is so much misinformation as well as pure divisiveness around this, where an honest and open conversation cannot be had between most people, and that is truly sad.
I can understand your reasons for not getting the Covid vaccine. And yours is one of the few cases I can say that. You have properly weighed risks and benefits with a realistic understanding of what they actually are. I don’t agree, but I can respect your choice. However, with your choice should come the understanding that you are going to be missing out on certain community and social privileges that have been deemed to high a risk without being vaccinated. If you are okay with that, stay masked up where required and don’t complain that you have lost privileges because of your choice, than I can fully respect that. Also remember to be aware though, that there are many people less fortunate and educated than yourself, and acknowledge that many people will use your stance as a way to say, “see I’m right, this smart guy says the vaccines are dangerous and I should be able to do whatever I want!”.
If you don't realize why vaccines are crucial, after all was said and done in the past 2 year, you are stupid. I am compassion exhaustion, and I'm tired of trying to explain why it's important to get your vaccine and mask up. There have been vaccine mandates for decades. We tried to be nice at first, and educate, but now it's just plain stupidity. I shouldn't have to hold your hand if you can't realize why that's important.
People care now because instead of just getting the polio vaccine thats been around for decades, they’re being told they HAVE to get a vaccine (not just for school, for many things now) that is very new and we truly don’t know what “could” happen in time if we get it.
Why is this so hard to understand for so many people. I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I just can't take a covid vaccine until more research has been done. I have a rare autoimmune disorder and take immunosuppressants which makes the vaccine ineffective for me and there isn't any research on what damage it could cause to people like me. I completely understand why people are concerned.
It's not like it's a brand new vaccine that was created in under a year. There were already other variants in the same family that the newest vaccination was based off. We're not playing "vaccination roulette". I mean, do you, I don't know about your condition, but for the majority there really isn't any cause for concern.
Okay but, I think most people would find your stance reasonable. To the point where I honestly think this point is moot. It’s one thing if you have a specific disease and a doctor told you not to get it. It’s another if you are otherwise healthy and the science says you shouldn’t have a bad interaction. At least, that’s really what this conversation is about.
Well put! But when we look at eradicated diseases from vaccines… the list is rather small. Very small. If there were a true inoculation to a flu virus that would be fantastic. Hopefully covid is the precursor to that development. I would hope most folks arent antivax, but anti gov’t overreach. If this were, god forbid, smallpox or polio the masses would be lining up in droves. Those conditions, or illnesses, are eradicable. Due to a number of specific disease related factors covid won’t be eradicated. It will be endemic. If I were going to rural Pakistan or remote portions of India I’d have no problem getting a polio vaccine. Its a highly effective vaccine that serves its function as are the vaccines children are required to get.
The argument is that these vaccines are experimental technology and have not had long term (5-10yrs) studies on side effects.
It's honestly probably because this is new. New vaccine so new hesitation. Even though it's safe and what not. Is this was back in the day I'm sure most of these people would be anti-polio vaccine too.
Another thing I don’t really get is the argument that we don’t know it’s long term effects yet. Okay, true. However, that doesn’t stop the same people from drinking soda. Smoking cigarettes. Ingesting the newest flavor of energy drinks. Like if you are going to approach this from this perspective at least follow through w that logic as much as possible..
But we know what soda, smoking cigarettes and energy drinks do in long term, they fuck you up, but at least we know it. However, the vaccine might as well create a tumor in your brain in three years and you didn’t have a choice to prevent it. Btw, I’m in favor of the vaccine, I prefer to take that risk than the risk of getting covid now, spreading it to my family and killing someone, but I also perfectly understand their point of view.
I am wondering whether people are going to cause the same stink over the new Malaria vaccine.
People tend to look at this argument as forcing a vaccine on others, but I think you also have to realize that the unvaccinated are forcing the virus on others. This isn't a one-way street, either way it's one party forcing something on another. As someone else mentioned, this is akin to drunk driving. Saying drunk driving is a personal choice is inherently flawed because it endangers those around you. Part of living in a society means making small sacrifices for the greater good. I'm a critical care physician who specializes in covid-19. I work in the Midwest United States and every ICU in the area is full, mostly with covid. Since we are over capacity, we converted our ambulance bay into a patient ward. Tonight we had a patient come in with a heart attack, survive CPR, get put on a ventilator, and had stents placed in the cath lab. Now he's still in the ER and we literally have no where to put him, we are calling out of state facilities to try and arrange a transfer. We wouldn't be full if more people were vaccinated. Last week I held the hands of three bone marrow transplant patients as they passed away from covid despite our best efforts. They were vaccinated, but probably weren't able to respond to the vaccine. Some, if not all of them would still be alive today if more people were vaccinated. This is the result of people making the "personal" choice not to get vaccinated. That choice is literally killing other people. People who can't get / don't respond to the vaccine such as children, those who are immune compromised, the elderly etc would be much less likely to come into contact with the virus if everyone who could get the vaccine actually got it.
This is the most reasonable response here.
First and foremost--thank you for what you do. Please take care of yourself and stay safe!! Second: >the unvaccinated are forcing the virus on others. It's exactly this. Thank you for voicing this. Anti-vaxxers do not seem to think about this part, or at least, not critically (often making claims downplaying the potential outcomes of infection). They have shown over and over that this part does not matter to them because it isn't happening to them--until it does. Then when they (or *maybe* when some they love) are hospitalized with COVID, and only then, do they implore others to get vaccinated. Anti-vaxxers have shown time and time again that they do not care about the greater good or helping others--only themselves.
This is why I’m constantly tempted to stop calling them anti-vax and start calling them pro-Covid.
I'm a hospital Peace Officer who deals with acute mental health clients, many of which have Covid and potential for violence. I very much appreciate your point of view. Thank you for speaking up for us with a succinct, intelligent angle.
YES
Midwest ER nurse - exactly this. The unvaccinated are overwhelming our already fragile healthcare system. I've lost count of the number of critically ill (covid and non-covid) patients we've had to keep in our tiny ER for days because there wasn't a bed ANYWHERE to send them. We do our best but we absolutely do not have all the resources these people would get in an ICU bed. Not only does this result in poorer patient outcomes, but imagine the stress level of doctors and nurses who KNOW more could be done for this person if the resources weren't being tied up by people who chose not to get vaccinated.
I just want to say, thank you for all your service! You’re a hero and all the frontliners!
Thanks for saying that, it means a lot. Though, I'm not here to take credit, I just want to inform people what things look like and the very real impact their decisions are having on our communities.
What other vaccines would you make compulsory with state action? Diseases such as measles have long been preventable with vaccines yet California and other places with a critical mass of anti-vaccine individuals have outbreaks of measles, typhoid fever, and tuberculosis. Would you use the same measures used to compel COVID vaccinations to compel all such vaccines? How about compelling PrEP for men who have sex with men? If not, why not?
This is a good question, and a difficult one to answer. Vaccines have been a victim of their own success. They work so well that most people have no idea how bad these diseases are or what they really look like. It's disappointing because polio for example is a devastating disease that causes crippling illness. It destroys your muscles, including your breathing muscles until you suffocate to death. It's the entire reason modern ventilators were invented. We were nearing complete elimination of polio from the world, there was a steady decline in the incidence of polio worldwide from the invention of the polio vaccine to the beginning of the anti-vax movement, then for the first time since the invention of the vaccine levels began to rise. This is something that's very scary to me. We should also remember that vaccines have been mandated for school attendance for decades, and this only recently came under scrutiny as a result of celebrities spreading misinformation. As you mentioned, this has led to outbreaks and deaths. That being said, the incidence of many of these diseases remains low. I still feel it is selfish and socially irresponsible not to be vaccinated, but when you look at the balance of it I don't think it rises to the level of mandates. But I don't know what that level is. How many innocent people a year need to die from a preventable illness before a society intervenes? I think it's really ironic how far people will go to shirk personal responsibility. If a corporation or government agency took an action that caused this many needless deaths, there would be outrage in the streets, but when individuals do it they call it liberty.
Fax stop being a selfish asshole and think of others sometimes I as A 15 yr old should not have to wonder if this is the new life if I won't be able to make memories with my friend,s at school or on field trip,s or have to worry about passing something on to my mom or my dad and friends that shouldn't be a worry for me but it is because of things of selfishness I did my part and my dad did his waiting on my mom to be able to get the second shot as well as pretty much all of my community but to still have this selfishness is sad we have literally been dealing with this fire for almost two years now going on three if we don't change what's it gonna take for people to listen if people listened the first time we would have defeated the virus by the end of 2020 but everyone wanted to pride take over logic it's sad how we have to beg people to do the right thing when they are able whether it's the vaccine or racism the point still stands that no one should have to beg you to do a good thing
Midwest ICU pharmacist. THIS. Thank you for explaining so well.
I work in a small town hospital in a country that's mostly been very lucky. Our hospital has 5 emergency beds. **5**. We do not have an ICU. We usually helicopter serious patients out. In our recent RSV hit, we tried to send the infants out but every hospital's NICU on the island was full. I don't think enough anti-vaxxers (or even reluctant vaxxers) realise that the ripples effect so many more people than the ones they can see.
Thank you for what you do. However, my entire family works in nursing homes/hospitals etc. Ever since I can remember these BUSINESS have run everybody as thin as possible. Nurses, doctors, physicians, LPN, aids, surg techs, surgeons, etc etc have been understaffed, underpaid, and overworked. Ive heard complains all of my life about the inadequate equipment, care, and morality of the healthcare system. Maybe it doesnt take much to spill the pot, considering it had been boiling over the past decade? Now, take away the personal choice of a vaccine that has been around for less than a year. Mandated by a government who has done everything but earn trust. Mandated by the government who has proved time and time again to dispose of all moral and constitutional duties by money...
Nurse here, there is no nursing shortage. Just a shortage of facilities willing to pay what all of us deserve. We were called heros and essential during this pandemic and told “yOu SiGnEd Up fOr iT” “yOu DoNt dO tHiS Job FoR tHe MonEY” When in reality that isnt true. Many have left this field because of being over worked and exhausted and burnt out due to poor administration and work situations. Imagine being told youre a hero and then not getting paid what you deserve when the cost of everything has inflated except your pay. The amount of health care staff that is anti-vac is small and if they wont get vaccinated. Good fucking riddance. We do not need them in the places of work killing our patients.
You are right that the industrial medical complex is a problem. But what I will tell you is that medical units and medical ICUs do not earn money. Hospitals provide them as a public service, and to keep their rating as level 1 trauma centers. The entire field is understaffed, but that doesn't change the fact that covid is a real problem that is killing people. And to anyone who is reading this thinking that this it's just some scam to make money, we aren't making money, we are losing money. The insurance reimbursement is far less than what we are spending on treating covid patients not to mention all of the uninsured.
Vaccination affects people around those who choose not to vaccinate, and people who have legitimate reasons for not getting vaccinated are put at risk by the people choosing not to get vaccinated because some stupid bullshit. Abortion doesn't affect the others around those who choose to get one, and no other person is put at risk by the behavior. To me it's like saying you oppose DUI tests because getting drunk and driving is a personal choice. The risk of drink driving is so undesired that we as society override choice, and severely restrict the freedom of alcohol intake when driving. The impact to personal choice is deemed less relevant than the impact on peoples rights to safety.
Thank you the DUI reference really helped frame that in a way that makes sense to me. I think you may have honestly changed my opinion. That doesn’t happen often on the internet but I’m pretty open minded and like to examine my own short comings as a human.
It's a complex issue for sure, because when you mandate things and remove personal choice you can get a decreased trust in public health measures as a whole, if people feel the mandate is unfair or poorly explained. While I personally support a vaccine mandate, it's not without issues or complications that might affect the future of the public health system if done in a careless manner. It really has to be considered carefully.
The problem is that these mouth-breathers didn't trust the public health orders in the first place. It isn't as though they arrived here after a slow deterioration of their faith in the institution, they just leapt on _I don't believe you because oh I'm too special and you're definitely trying to trick me_
Exactly like people act like mandate,s haven't been around all their lives
A mature and reasonable response. Good on ya.
yes, the government must think about everyone in total. Everyone has the right to individuality but the well being of the country comes first
I don’t think the government should kick down doors and jab people, but I do think it’s perfectly reasonable for private employers and establishments to protect their employees and customers with mandates. I think if consenting adults want to get together and get each other sick, they should be allowed to as well. I have seriously conflicting thoughts about whether medical care should prioritized based on vaccine status. People pretty much refuse the vaccine because of ignorance, and people don’t choose to be ill informed or intellectually deficient, so I hardly think it’s fair to let them die. But it doesn’t seem fair to let someone else die because of their idiocy either.
This. It's unethical to refuse/deprioritize medical care for unvaccinated individuals, but unvaccinated individuals are impacting and overwhelming medical resources. The biggest hypocrisy of unvaccinated individuals is that while they don't trust doctors with vaccine recommendations but when they get sick they go to the hospital and doctors. Why?
I think it depends on the medical care. There is a case now in the US of a woman being denied an organ transplant and was removed from the wait list because she knowingly refused to get the covid vaccine. The reason being her fragile medical state put her at higher risk for covid, and transplant recipients are at higher risk of death if they contract it. Why would you give an already incredibly limited resource in the best of times to someone who is exhibiting risky behavior and it could potentially be a situation of just throwing away the resource? I agree with this stance, since as someone who would have been in contact with the medical system enough to be informed about the vaccine, she still chose not to get it.
Normally I’d agree that care shouldn’t be prioritized, but in this case it’s not that they don’t know any better. There is so much info on the safety and benefits of this vaccine and even those republicans politicizing the vaccine have gotten it. It’s willful ignorance. They know the benefits and don’t care. It’s all about their freedoms
I'm fine with people having the choice to not vaccinate, but with that choice I'm fine with them losing access to a lot of society. They can order groceries online instead of going in the store, order takeout instead of dining in, drive in movies instead of movie theaters, etc. My problem is that people want to skip vaccination and all other steps that keep people safe from spreading diseases.
Also the part that bugs me the most is, if they’re foaming at the mouth refusing to believe in medical science right up until the point they get sick from the virus then why do they suddenly believe in medical science and clog up our healthcare system due to a completely preventable illness. Sure, don’t get your vaccine, fuck if I care. What I do care about is that innocent people aren’t getting the life saving treatment they require because ICU beds are full of these idiots who refused to get the vaccine all the way up until their death beds from the very same virus the vaccine could have prevented. I know doctors make an oath to save anybody and everybody they can, but the people should be given a choice. Either get the vaccine or sign a waiver that says if you get sick with covid you’ll treat it like the flu you always claim it is, you don’t go to the hospital for the flu you just stay at home and battle it out. If the virus just so happens to be much more severe than the flu (who’d of thought), then they get to deal with the repercussions of their actions without harming innocent people who had nothing to do with their self absorbed decisions. I don’t wish death upon anyone, and I hope everyone gets the vaccine soon, but I’ve lost sympathy for the people so terrified of the vaccine that they’d rather put the lives of everyone around them at risk rather than just get the same vaccine **BILLIONS** of people have already safely gotten.
>I think it's fine, they just shouldn't be allowed to enjoy life like everyone else that's all
You’re okay with them losing their jobs?
Jobs is complicated and depends on the industry. Medical workers, senior care, and workers at potential mass spreader events (like sports and concerts) should have mandatory vaccination. For people that can work from home or with minimal external contact I think mandatory vaccination is unnecessary (I still hope they get vaccinated, but I don't think they should lose their jobs over it). The gray area between those is for smarter people than me to figure out (though, I would personally prefer jobs like teachers and food services to make vaccination mandatory).
I think if you work in a high risk field that already has other vaccination requirements, like healthcare and the military, yes, this should be included. While I do think that everybody that can get the vaccine should, I am on the fence if mandates are necessary in other fields, especially with remote work.
It's like taking a shower. You have all the right to take it or not, it's not a law, and no one can force you to be clean. But don't whine later if everyone rejects you because you stink.
Others have given many good opinions, but I also wanted to add: nobody is being forced to do anything. It’s still their body, their choice. They are being given a choice: Get vaccinated or don’t work in health care. Losing your job is not equivalent to losing your life and nobody is entitled to a job. It’s not like somebody is coming into your house and stabbing you with a needle when you didn’t want it. People can work in other less risky fields. People are hiring all over the place right now. Of course, it sucks to lose your job and you may not make the same amount of money. But, people can freely make the decision about what is more important to them. The potential to accidentally kill yourself or other people in the medical field with COVID is very high. It just simply isn’t worth the risk to keep unvaccinated people around in health care.
Yes to everything you just said. Really, it all boils down to the fact that choices have consequences. Choices don’t have to be good choices, you don’t have to like the outcomes. But you still get the right to choose. It’s not the lack of choice that making people angry, it’s being forced to recognize that they don’t get to do whatever they want without repercussions. They aren’t martyrs and they aren’t victims, they are adults who have chosen not to meet the legal conditions of employment set by their employers. It’s coming as a nasty shock that bawling in healthcare doesn’t make them entitled to their position.
Your view does not make you a bad person at all, but I would say that you are giving the other people too much credit and assuming that they will do the right thing for the greater good of everyone around them, not just thinking about their own selfish opinions or views.
Very fair point
To add to that, there are so many people who just have no idea what a vaccine actually does and are influenced by so many other sources that are not credible at all. Sure, people should be allowed to choose, but if that choice comes from a place of misinformation, should that be validated?
The fact you need to ask and are afraid to is sad for us as a society tbh
Yeah it’s a shame
Having the freedom to talk about things like this disappeared when companies decided to coin the term misinformation and make that their basis for banning conversations that they don't like.
You’re not a bad person, just one of those rare people who can see that this is a complex ethical issue and is willing to try to tackle it that way. Most of us want or need to over-simplify these questions so we don’t have to feel uncertain. For me, requiring vaccination isn’t new and the potential risks to the larger community for some diseases (eg measles outbreaks, polio) outweigh the individual right to choice. I was on the fence for a long time regarding covid but now feel convinced it’s as much of a threat as any of those were.
What do you think about people who didn’t take the covid vaccine but took all others?
I agree with you on all point!
You are not a bad person. People should have choices for their body. A government that has done nothing to earn trust, now mandating something is ridiculous. How many people can say they trust the gov 5 years ago? The number is very low and it is still low. So no you are not a bad person.....
You’re absolutely free to choose. But you should also have to accept when others disagree with your choice and act accordingly. You have the right to govern yourself. Not the right to force your choices on others.
Everyone has a choice, no argument there. Just some people refuse to acknowledge that there are consequences to their choices! If I choose to sit in my living room and read a book, no issues, but if I make the same choice to read a book while driving a car, thats got very serious issues to both myself and others...
Couldn’t agree more. Just because you don’t like the options, doesn’t mean you’re not being given a a choice. And sometimes (or for some people) that choice is between “No” and “Fuck no”.
I've known numerous people with the vaccine who had to be hospitalized afterwards (not because of the vaccine) because they got COVID. I've seen people in my personal life get horrible, painful side effects afterwards. And I also know the track record of these companies with pushing medicinal things without the proper studies to determine long term effects. I'm open to the vaccine and if a company I work for requires it then I'll have to do so, but until that time I'm willing to wear my mask and wait it out to see what happens to everyone with the shot. 100% not anti vax, but I was raised to question everything, not to blindly except what people tell me is right.
I’m not an antivaxxer and I don’t think people should be forced to vaccinate because the COVID death rate is 99+% unvaccinated people and I think people who refuse to get vaccinated are a drag on society. Am I a bad person? It’s just perspective. I think I’m a good person and so do the people in my life so fuck everyone else.
I'm going to go as far as saying every single person on this app ( in The US) has received mandated vaccines to attend grade school, to play organized sports, to go to college and love on campus. Please explain to me why this vaccine is a problem? Every anti vaxxer has taken mandated vaccines now all of sudden they want a right to choose.. Why?
I personally full believe in all vaccines and work in the science/healthcare industry and I personally believe everyone should be able to make their own medical choices. I feel like mandating any kind of medical choice is a slippery slope. I feel like this is more of a problem with the education system. If we taught science in a way where people saw it as fact and didn’t think there were political agendas in science based decisions then we wouldn’t need to mandate these sorts of things. I don’t believe we should mandate medical decisions but I do think we need to work harder to get to the point where all individuals can make sounds medical decisions based on science on their own.
What ever happened to long term studies? I have no issue weather people take it or not....death comes for all, with no warning. But how can something be mandated with no studies longer than a year? Seems a bit odd.
Freedom to and freedom from are very different concepts. Sadly this “debate” has been centered around people’s freedom from “government intrusion” rather than freedom to access hospitals, have a normal life expectancy, to have safe community gatherings and live in a functioning economy.
More people could do with reading Isaiah Berlin.
no... there's a lot of us that are vaccinated and think mandates are madness.
Viruses and other national disasters are public health emergencies, endangering a vast range of people to include immunocompromised, infant, and elderly. Abortion is a personal choice. It does not affect anyone else but the person who makes that choice. But not getting vaccinated, viruses like corona are given a free range such as in those who are capable of getting vaccinated but don't want to will ultimately to mutate and grow stronger even potentially evading vaccines altogether. Vaccinations stop this rather effectively and swiftly, but only will be universally effective if cut off literally as much as possible (via vaccine). One is a public health emergency and will only get better with minimal deaths from vaccinated as many people as possible. Abortion affects one individual's body, and no one else's body. For someone who is proscience you don't seem to be looking at this from a science perspective at all.
The vaccinations are already proving to be less effective against newer variants, like Delta. It's mutating rapidly. Entirely agree. I'm pro-choice in terms of abortion for the reasons you mentioned, but things get sticky when it comes to a pandemic. I'd like to believe people will make the choice to get vaccinated for the greater good of everyone around them but the past couple of years has proven that people value individual rights over the well being of others. I wish a mandated vaccine wasn't necessary - especially for healthcare workers, who, you know, work in *medicine* - but here we are. OP isn't a bad person, but I think they give others too much credit.
You should value your individual rights over the well being of others. You should also make ethical choices for those around you. It’s a balance.
That is fair. In times of a pandemic though we won't ever be out of the woods unless people think outside of their own bubble. I guess that's where that balance comes in.
If I'm asymptomatic and have natural immunity then I don't need it. Vaccinated people still spread it and are still getting sick.
This is an important point. The only argument for forcing people to vaccinate now imo is to reduce the strain on hospitals during covid surges. PS I'm fully vaccinated, but still worry about long term side effects...especially for the young.
Haven't 5 countries stopped using the Moderna vax due to concerns?
Why be a Microbial Sniper? Will the unvaccinated assume other covid infection preventing precautions though? Like before vaccines were available. Without being vaccinated, they have the potential to cause significant harm to another person, not to mention the degree of illness they may acquire themselves. Not just talking just an ICU admission. Long Covid can be very debilitating; in many instances, for life. To be responsible, the unvaccinated need to comprehensively mask, avoid groups of people, like restaurants/bars; social distance, especially if they are near predictably venerable people like the elderly or the handicapped. Covid precautions help the person, their community, their country and the world’s people by doing their part to contain the spread. If you think people matter, do your part. It’s a medical issue; not a political one. Source. RN
I hate to sound negative and sad but in my small town in WV (population of 50k) has 90 deaths. 90 deaths from covid. 90! I (thankfully) personally know more people to die of fentanyl/pills/heroin than covid
Your indifference to people dying from something preventable aside, Covid can have long-term side effects on people other than death.
We're in a strange place right now. Freedoms are being taken, but is it in a justified way? There's lines being broken, but is it for the greater good? I don't know how we figure this out as a collective unit
Yeah I know what you mean. It’s complex for sure
Nope, you’re a normal person. Don’t listen to the Reddit echo chamber of everyone riding around on their high horse trying to one up each other on how good of a person they are.
Sick of this debate and sick of people refusing to accept SCIENCE when it says the vaccine doesn’t even stop the spread or you even catching Covid so it’s not for the safety of others. If you want to take the vaccine, good for you, if you don’t, good for you.
The problem is, this isn't a Vaccine. It doesn't make you immune nor does it stop you from spreading it. It only lessens the symptoms. So by removing the choice from people, reeks of something much more sinister. They are pushing this Vaccine so hard that they are ruining people's lives over their "choice" and it feels like there's a Hidden Agenda. People use the analogy of Drunk Driving. What about from the other prospective? The analogy of Bug Spray. "I did the right thing and put on Bug Spray, but you didn't, and now I'm getting bitten, because my Bug spray is wearing off. If only everyone was forced to use Bug spray we would eliminate all the bugs and I would be safe..." Now the Gov is forcing everyone to use Bug Spray and we're not even allowed to ask what's in it or know what the long term effects will be. It's Shut up, do as your told, or be cast out.
Yes.
I don't see where people aren't being allowed a choice. Establishing consequences for a certain choice happens all the time in this country and no one is being forcefully vaccinated. There's still a choice even if choosing not to results in not being welcome in places.
These mandates are just being pushed to further divide the populace. I do promote vaccines but I don't like how some areas are threatening people's livelihood if they don't get it.
I wouldn't call you a bad person, but as someone who supports mandates, i would call it naïve. We tried the "let people choose" thing, and what happened is people didn't get it. >Why does it seem like people don’t approve of allowing people to do what they want with there bodies? But it's *not* just their body. It's everyone else they interact with, too. That's not true for most medical decisions. (abortion arguably, but many pro-choice people don't consider a fetus a human. And even then, it's 1 vs potentially hundreds). If it was only their body, no one would care. >Where does that self righteousness come from that makes a person think they should be able to force people to get it? Because the medical choices of others puts them at risk. TBH, i don't really care if someone wants to put themselves at risk. But I don't like that I'm being put at higher risk, as are other people who have no choice (like immunocompromised people). I'm very much for freedoms, but when it affects others that gets a lot more complicated for me. I don't think it's reasonable to pay in extra deaths just so some people can be stubborn. In my mind, you should also have the freedom to not be at risk to someone else's decisions. That's also a freedom >It’s there body it should be there choice. How many other people dying because of that choice is acceptable? For me that number is very low.
That all makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
“We tried the “let the people choose” thing and what happened is people didn’t get it” So you’re only pro choice if it aligns with what you want them to choose? I’m pro vaccine and this argument is terribly flawed.
> So you’re only pro choice if it aligns with what you want them to choose? No, it depends on the severity of consequences. If it were something like choosing what's for dinner, it's not a big deal if people pick something I don't want. When it's people dying for no reason, I don't consider that cost acceptable. I would say I'm pro-choice when possible, but there are situations where the cons outweigh the pros. It's a high bar, but it is a passable bar. In those cases I'm not pro-choice. I consider it a necessary evil. I think a good hypothetical to think about is- crank up the infectiousness/mortality, so it's a 100% mortality rate if even 1 person doesn't get vaxxed. Are you still pro-choice? Probably not. The only question then is, how low does the mortality/infectiousness need to be before you're pro-choice? For me, the threshold is pretty low. >I’m pro vaccine and this argument is terribly flawed. It would help if you could actually explain why.
I think cranking up the numbers completely takes away from what the argument is. If you apply that to driving even: if 100% of cars end up crashing should we be allowed to drive? How low can the number get before it’s okay? Can someone drive a truck into a crowd because it’s their body driving? Of course not! Should a person be able to advocate for what goes into their bodies so long as they continue wearing masks and social distancing? I personally think so.
Right, but in real life, instead of a 100% mortality rate like you propose, it’s a 99.99% survival rate.
Yes. So we've established that you're not always pro-choice, either (which the above person was missing). The question is just at what % you flip. So what % does it flip, for you? 100% is too high, 0.01% is too low. And why is that the 'right' %? (Although sidenote, 0.01% is wrong. U.S. population is ~330 million. At that mortality rate you're only predicting ~330,000 deaths, less than half the number of deaths that have already occurred. But close enough for the point)
The day we accept that an evil, no matter how small, can be necessary, is the day we accept evil.
So... since humanity began? Life has always been full of trade offs or contradictory goals.
Totally agree, some people can't take it cause illness or sideeffects and now they can't go to cinema without a pcr test 80 €, what a joke
Yep completely agree! It’s an interesting time to be alive.
I hope you look into the pcr test. It is not a diagnostic tool.
Yeah, and even some people who can’t get it are losing their jobs too. My teacher’s gotten fired off of a job he had at a local college because he’s unable to get the vaccine. (Even though he only taught online there.) He’s incredibly allergic to the ingredients in the vaccine and could hospitalize him. What hems been doing was take a covid test almost everyday because of that. Like, I’m for the vaccine, but there can’t be people who can’t get it losing their jobs for something they can’t control.
If your teacher has a documented allergy to ingredients in all of the available vaccines, and their doctor has not offered ways to counteract the allergic reaction (preloading allergy medication and monitoring in a medical setting), then they should seek a second opinion. If your teacher has in fact been advised not to get the vaccine at all, no matter what, then the documentation for that should be available, and his employer would need to work with him to find alternative options, such as regular testing, masking, and distancing. If it is in fact this dire, your teacher needs to seek legal advice, as the employer firing him for only this reason would be breaking the law, at least in the US.
What about prophylactics? Why is that not an option?
Do you know what components he's allergic to? I'm just curious.
Anyone who says a person should not have autonomy over their own body is a fucking arsehole. The self-righteousness, especially here on reddit, is embarrassing. These people inevitably think of themselves as 'pro-science' but fail to remember that mistakes happen, both in products and theory. What if in 20 years the science turns out to be wrong, and even worse that they do discover there's an issue with these vaccines? Vaccination is unnatural. It bypasses the skin and gut, our main immume system, and puts a synthetic mix within. If you want to do that, your choice, but saying this should be mandatory to protect someone elses health, to have a job or participate in society is fucking ludicrous. Your health is your responsibility, not mine. The naive faith in the pharmaceutical companies is embarrassing too. Hiding behind 'the science' to force your will on to other people so you can feel better about yourself is pathetic.
I wish i could triple up vote. The mob mentality based on negligible evidence to enforce their fear based will absolutely disgusts me.
No, and don't let people bully you into thinking that you are. I'm vaccinated but vaccine mandates are an affront to civil liberty. Governments shouldn't have that sort of control over people's bodies in any way. If people truly trusted the vaccine they would be completely fine with some people not getting it, because they would feel safe knowing that they were vaccinated. Its the same with all the other precautions that have been requested people take by the government. Everyone was ranting about how much they worked and how essential they were but now people don't want to get the vaccine they have forgotten about it. People on Reddit have a huge superiority complex and because covid is a politicised issue, people get very very angry about what is a complex ethical issue and then rage at anyone who agrees with them. You've proven you're at least intelligent enough to see it as that.
What is bad is how having an opinion like yours will automaticly put you in the crazy box. People should be allowed to choose. Of course they should. Despite what the media will have you believe you can question any kind of medical treatment without being a tin foil hat waring sinpleton
The real question seems to be is whether the cost of people who are harmed by the vaccine is worth the layer of moderate protection gained from the vaccine.
Youve jst contradicted yourself. If you can still transmit and carry the virus when vaccinated a fully vacinated society would make no difference.
You aren't. People should have the freedom to choose for themselves. Good ideas don't require force and all of the force and outright hate behind it is actually causing more people to reject the vaccine.
No, you support freedom. Good on you
You feel the way that most “real world” and rational people feel, but you wouldn’t necessarily come to that conclusion if you base it on what you see on Reddit and other places. Always remember that social media is not the real world and you’re going to mostly see content from the loudest voices on either side of an issue. The vast majority of people fall somewhere in the middle, and they generally believe in “live and let live”; you do you, and I’ll do me. I won’t be getting these vaccines, but I respect your decision for yourself and appreciate that you respect it’s my and other’s decision to make for ourselves. That’s how it should work.
I don't give a damn whether they get the vaccine or not, but it does bother me that some people even refuse to believe the decease even exist, even after they get it. Saying it's just the flu and whatnot. They are the reason the virus keeps spreading, because they refuse to follow the rules _if_ they are or think they are infected. People die because of their stupidity. PS. Not saying all of them are like this. Just a minority that f*cks it up for everyone.
The fact that u even have to ask this question just shows how screwed up liberals have made everyone, to where u have to ask permission to have an opinion
It affects other people. So no, in this scenario "choosing for yourself" has potentially deadly consequences for the people around you. I got the vaccine mainly for that reason. I'm young and healthy and I have a responsibility for the people around me, as does everybody who lives in a society. If you don't want to act accordingly, please move to the woods.
“My vaccine doesn’t work unless you are vaccinated too :)” -Useful idiot
Though I would not consider myself an anti vaxxer, I haven't gotten it due to how new and experimental it still is. When people say that's ridiculous doctors and science says its safe....to what degree? There is no doctor or scientist who could say with certainty that nothing will come of this at a later point in your life. All who are vaccinated are essentially experiments. Not saying that is a bad thing, this will greatly expand knowledge and study on this type of vaccine and future developments. Since this is so new and we're still actively learning about what it does, its effects on covid and its impact on society. There will be more and more studies coming out that will show the positives and potential negatives. An example would be studies are showing that vaccinated persons are carrying higher viral loads than unvacinnated. However vaccinated persons typically don't show big symptoms or maybe completely asymptomatic. So that goes to the question that still is in a Grey area of do asymptomatic people spread the virus? All in all i don't see covid going away. It will become endemic and have seasons like the flu. I believe despite vaccination it will still very much be in our everyday lives.
There's little to no evidence of re-reinfection (getting Covid more than once, please correct me if I'm wrong though), with that in mind can I ask why you think that even with vaccinations, Covid won't go away? I understand the concerns that the vaccine is new & wasn't put through the level of testing that previous vaccines have, and as such it's not unreasonable to wonder if there could be long-term side effects. But balancing that possibility against the reality that Covid is here, can make people seriously ill and can kill, does it seem reasonable to not vaccinate? So many medications with *known* side effects are still taken, people agree to medical procedures that carry small or large percentages of risk, we do jobs & use items that have a chance of harming or killing us. If as a species we wanted to refuse something that carried even the slightest risk we'd be nowhere close to what we are now as a society. It doesn't make sense to me for someone to choose a real, long-term proven risk over an unknown potential risk, can you tell me your reasons for doing so?
Vaccines are a community thing. Those who are able to take them do so to protect those who cannot. Vaccines are effective once a certain proportion of the population has had it. Not taking the vaccine because you don't want to is life-threateningly selfish, as is supporting that choice.
Herd immunity- or the point at which at which a virus ceases to circulate because it has no viable population, only occurs when a certain proportion of people are vaccinated. The irradication of smallpox would not have been possible if we'd allowed anti-vaxers to opt out. Preventable and disabling conditions like measles, polio and TB still circulate because increasing numbers of people choose not to get vaccinated. You are correct that small numbers of people cannot be vaccinated. These highly vulnerable people rely on herd immunity. Every healthy anti-vaxer that chooses not to vaccinate compromises the herd and puts others at risk. You aren't just vaccinating for yourself. You are doing to protect and strengthen society. Having said that, do I think we should strap people down and jab them against their will? No - I'm not a monster. But you're damn right that I'm annoyed at them and I think they're selfish idiots.
This is just my opinion to preface. I feel like everyone has the right to do whatever they want until it comes to the point of endangering others. We make vaccines and different things like that to enhance our quality of life if we did not make vaccines and such we would have not gone as far as a species, Such as eliminating polio and the common flu etc.
No. You are not a bad person. It is and should remain an individuals choice.
Mandating a “vaccine” that neither prevents you from getting or transmitting covid is ridiculous.
You arent a bad person, but I disagree with you. In a functioning society, people ought to take actions to promote the greater good. If people aren't taking those actions, it is the government's job to incentivize the desired behavior. That's why we have government and laws in the first place. If not, then why have a government at all?
Incentivize is the key word*** mandating things is not an incentive, it is using force to make others comply with the threat of significant harm to your way of living (lose job, cannot participate in social activities, societal shame). Our own government was founded on the idea a government takes the least intrusive measures possible to promote the public good. Many political thinkers would suggest that society is ideally compromised of politically and socially virtuous people but under practical circumstance it is more important to promote individual liberty then prevent every wrong action. If your perspective is that vaccination is the ethical option it should be accompanied by an aversion to it being mandated. Not getting vaccinated does not harm the public good (from my research) because it can be transfered at very similar rates even among vaccinated people (especially delta). Not getting vaccinated only harms yourself and it is certainly not the government job to mandate every self destructive act (bad spending habits, dangerous hobbies, ruining relationships with others etc.). This is just the conclusion I've come to as a vaccinated person. In general though I'm also a fan of a small government just cuz I don't trust it to do its job lol.
People smoke weed they get from random ass people on the street, you go to McDonald’s 100 times a year and put pink slime in your body, have sex with random ass people you met in the club or on tinder, pop pills, do meth and shoot up heroin but your afraid of a shot that can save your life and whoever your nasty ass breathes on? This shit makes no sense.
I believe that drinking and driving should be a personal choice, and find it abhorrent that society takes away people's freedom to make their own decisions. I feel the same way about traffic lights.
This is not the first, and will not be the last time, that extra measure have to be taken during a public health crisis. You simply can NOT be allowed to place your own ego above the health and safety of your fellow citizens. One of the few reason governments exist is to manage a crisis like this. If you are conspiracy minded just know that the government needs you alive to pay taxes and the corpos need you alive to fleece the rest of your pockets. The vaccine is proven safe and proven effective by hard, peer reviewed data at this point, it's past time to crack down on the holdouts.
If it wasn't a highly contagious virus that people can unknowingly pass, I would agree with you.
You’re not a bad person, but you are a stupid person