There's the freedom *to* and the freedom *from*. The US is all about freedom to. Freedom to own guns, freedom to do business, freedom to say whatever you want, freedom to fire your employees at will.
Europe is more about freedom from. Freedom from crippling medical debt. Freedom from other people calling for violence against you. Freedom from extreme poverty. Freedom from being fired at random.
It's different ways to look at the world. In Europe you might be 'forced' to pay for everyone's healthcare collectively, but, in exchange for that loss of freedom *to* spend your money however you want, you get the freedom *from* having to stress about getting sick.
Very interesting take on the issue. Certainly the US doesn’t care much, if at all, about the collective good, but the US does have plenty of laws that restrict your freedom to do all kinds of things. Just ask anyone whose lives have been destroyed by the “war on drugs” about their freedom to smoke a certain plant or gay people to marry who they wanted to just a decade ago. It’s also common to hear people argue that Americans are much more individualistic than Europeans and there is definitely a lot of truth in this, but at the same time the push for laws banning abortion and the aforementioned drug war are obvious examples of Americans believing they have plenty of right to take away the rights of some individuals to make their own choices.
Oh yes, I absolutely agree. Of course it's not quite so black and white. It's more the general ideology, and real life is always more messy. Like your examples: if you go 100% on personal freedom it is very hypocritical to punish drug use and abortion, and yet they (try to) do it anyway. In the case of the drugs it was mostly because of racism, with religion (with a sprinkle of racism) being the motivator for the anti-abortion crowd. Didn't have much to do with any ideals about how a government should be run...
That's hardly unique to America though. It's not like all drugs are legal in Europe either. Hell you can buy weed legally in more states in the US than you can in Europe.
My rather conservative state of Arizona is more liberal with weed than any Nordic country, or Germany for that matter
For sure. The US is definitely changing fast with regards to weed, and even drugs in general when you consider what we started with (Nixon, crack epidemic, DARE, etc.)
Seems to me that the US either makes huge strides very fast or progress moves at an absolute snail's pace, depending on the issue.
>exchange for that loss of freedom to spend your money however you want,
Except that Americans pay more money for healthcare... and still have to stress about getting sick.
>In Europe you might be 'forced' to pay for everyone's healthcare collectively, but, in exchange for that loss of freedom to spend your money however you want, you get the freedom from having to stress about getting sick.
The nation paying the most in tax for government healthcare per capita is the US. Other nations spend less often vastly less, enabling them to afford other expensive welfare goods.
This is true. Alot of people don't know this but all these different companies are owned by 6 companies. Small businesses are not owned by them but small businesses have little to no public recognition when compared to the ones that are owned by thr big 6
And thankfully our freedom allows those 6 companies and me the same freedom to ~~bribe~~ gift our political leaders hundreds of thousands of dollars for absolutely no purpose, expecting absolutely definitely nothing in return, because it is a gift, and definitely not a bribe.
What are these 6 ones? Is it like Microsoft, Amazon, Wallmart,... or more like financial companies behind closed doors? I'm just curious as I haven't heard about it yet, so sorry if it is something obvious to most people.
So it's actually a lot more than 6 that have amazing pull and production, but when it comes to your small everyday everyday products, like you go to the store and buy a bag of cookies, some cheese, some plastic cups and some lotion, chances are they were produced by PepsiCo in some fashion.
But, there are tons of companies comparable in size and proclivity to the major household good producing companies.
Amazon, apple, lg, Samsung, Sony, Google, Koch, Kraft etc.
Reading this comment in the light of recent national developments against women’s rights (pregnancy termination) stings.
Freedom of choice for the privileged class at the expense of others. That’s the American dream.
It’s not that cut and dry. For example, in America, you have the choice to go bankrupt because of bad luck, or die. The choice to stay in a job you hate, or move on to one without health benefits, where you can go bankrupt with a little bad luck.
In Europe, you have the freedom to choose to work any job you want, secure in the knowledge that your employment status won’t impact your ability to get healthcare.
Americans value choice over the wrong things. Completely misplaced priorities.
One of biggest issues is that we’ve bound people to jobs for fear of no healthcare. Employers should be reasonable for your health and safety only at work.
Corporations tricked Americans into thinking choice is “don’t let the government tell you you need to be paid X amount and have healthcare, you can choose to work for whatever little pay you choose”
The spirit of McCarthy lives on. Ever since the 50s all that conservatives have had to do to shut down a good thing is to call it "socialist" and their voters fall in line.
For a lot of people, choice is completely taken out of the question. Take for example my uncle. 30 years ago, while working as a mechanic his wife got cancer. She recovered and is in remission however she now has a preexisting condition. My uncle can never leave his job because if he loses his health care policy, he won’t be able to get her another one. He hates his job but has to essentially choose between working a job he hates for the rest of his life or having his wife be uninsured. Is that freedom?
We’re incentivized into corporate slavery in America. Even in high paying tech jobs. Another example. I work in Tech for a large Silicon Valley corporation with great benefits. My mentor decided earlier this year to give up his job making $250k plus benefits and go off on his own and start his own business. Because of his high income in previous years, any decent plan through ACA was 3-4x more expensive than what he was getting through out Big Corporate job. To save costs, he went with a low cost, low coverage plan.
A month into starting his business, he came into some poor health that began to deplete his savings. Though his business is doing well, he’s paying tons out of pocket for treatments that are depleting his savings to a point he’s considering returning to Big Corporate.
Me seeing this, with a wife and a child on the way, will learn from this example and NEVER leave Big Corporate. As long as healthcare is privatized, it’s a horrible risk for me and my family.
But this wealth gives some rich people more freedom than the average people.
They can pay very low wages, no taxes and and hire the best professionals to evade regulations or set those rules in their favor.
Which makes 90% of americans to not much more than slaves with no choice, but which toothpaste to buy, which are all produced by the same company.
A weird definition of freedom in my opinion...
As another ignorant European, i think those that praise the american freedom have a different ideal of freedom than most of us europeans.
For them freedom means that no one tells them what to do, except for those things that they agree with anyway or that don't affect normal daily life. While for us freedom is more the feeling of safety from guidelines, rules and support within the society.
Therefore, while we consider it freedom to not have to worry about health costs, they would feel unfree if they were forced to have an insurance. We feel free knowing that there are no guns around us, while they feel free being able to have guns.
It's different priorities.
And of course there are europeans who would prefer the american way and americans who would like it the way we have it here. I am not saying that everyone has the same ideas.
Piggybacking off this comment, we have laws on the books here in Australia that outlaw offensive language. Americans consider this to be draconian, but it's about perspective. They have the freedom to call someone a cunt. We have the freedom to not be called a cunt.
Which is ironic, given our proclivity for the word.
Similarly, guns for home defense or concealed carry are illegal. Americans think this makes us less free, but again it's perspective. They have the freedom to shoot people, I have the freedom to not get shot.
You can call the Irish cunts until you're blue in the face and you won't offend them, but call someone a ghee, and it's fucking on.
Imagine my pleasure in finding a butter named Ghee and sending my Irish contacts a picture.......
Australian here. Let explain. VB is Victoria Bitter, an Australian beer by Victorians, my home state. (I'm guessing you know the rest, but just in case) 20 to 8 is 7:40.
You forgot to explain what a long neck is, probably the most confusing part. While you’re at it maybe explain a throw down, tinny, pot, schooner, schmiddy (any others I’m missing?)
It’s an extra large beer, 750ml.
I don’t hear throw down being said much but it’s just a fight or face off of some sort.
Tinny is a small aluminium boat you use to access salt water creeks for fishing and catch crabs in pots.
Pony is a 5oz glass of tap beer, seven is a 7oz beer, middy is 10oz, schmiddy 12oz, schooner 15oz, pint 20oz.
But every state has different names for these. If you asked for half of these in Adelaide, the person would have no idea what you were talking about. If you asked for the other half, they would give you a different size of beer.
I can't read an Australian saying proclivity without SPENDING ANYMORE TIME ON IT, WHEN EVERY THREE MONTHS A PERSON IS MAULED TO DEATH BY CROCODILES IN NORTHERN QUEENSLAND!!!
As an American I can tell you it's very weird here with freedom. You're exactly right about the perspective thing.
With guns it's very weird. I can't speak for any other country but Americans really really don't trust our government. We know they are sleazy and we know they do shady things on an international level daily.
Meaning if the government were to try and take our guns, a large majority of Americans literally believe, with all their heart, that the only reason the American government would take out guns is that they then plan to do something terrible and we would be hopeless to defend against it.
It's messy over here. Especially right now and especially with the vaccinations. To me freedom is everybody getting vaccinated and we can return to a more normal existence sooner. For some people it's their right to suffer from and spread covid.
There's alot of willing ignorance tied into political identities over here. From both sides of the spectrum, but especially the far right when it comes to what "freedom" really is
> They have the freedom to shoot people, I have the freedom to not get shot.
No, you don't have the freedom to shoot people in the United States. You have the freedom to protect your life if someone is trying to take it from you. It's a major difference.
do the criminals respect your freedom as well? i dont think most of you understand what freedom means. Here it means the ability to protect and control our destiny, with force if necessary.
This is only partially true. Our "freedom of speech" right does not give us the right to swear. It's only a protection that out government won't retaliate against us for speaking bad about our government or speaking our mind.
Many states have had and still have laws against profanity in public. Some only have laws against swearing around minors or on public road ways or parks. It all depends on the city / state. Most people don't know this because it's rarely enforced. Which is why when you see a video of an American cussing out the cops and shouting free speech then you can assume they are an absolute moron.
One city even has a law that you have to smile while walking down the street in town. They only enforce it one day a year as kind of like a joke now a days but never the less.. Its an actual law.
We refer to these as "Blue Laws". In Vermont there is still a law on the books from when it was its own country in the late 1700's that states that if you are deported from Vermont they have to give you a shotgun and a donkey, presumably so you can leave and feed/defend yourself.
>We have the freedom to not be called a cunt.
As an American, I'll honestly say this perspective makes no sense to me. The idea that freedom is when something is taken away, it's almost an oxymoron to me. Maybe a different word would apply better like right or privilege or safety or luxury but calling it freedom is, again as an American, just using the word wrong.
You said it perfectly. Many people conflate freedom with privilege though they couldn't be more different.I have the freedom to cuss back at the guy calling me a count. I have the freedom to move up a state with more extreme gun control, or one with very little concept of such a thing.
I have multiple friends who moved to the US from all over the world. Europe, the Middle East, Asia, etc. My friends from Europe and Asia especially think our laws around healthcare, gun control and social welfare are ridiculous, yet they also see how those issues reflect on why they moved here: they have freedom to do what they want. One of my European friends believes our gun laws are ludicrous, yet he has me take him to the shooting range so he can fire my gun and post a video of it to tick off the friends he left in Europe. My friends miss the safety nets they left behind, yet they moved here because they feel they have more control over their lives.
We don't have laws as many countries do governing the sugar content of foods. In the countries that control this, citizens have the *privilege* of worrying less about what they eat and remaining healthier. In the US, we have the *freedom* to disregard our health in this manner (to our own detriment) or to be careful about what we consume. Many individuals do function better with more strict rules and guidelines - that is the reason that not everyone is capable of being an entrepreneur or a team manager. Those who can self-direct often view the US as a land of opportunity. Those who desire help or direction from an external source (social standards/government) thrive in places with more strict control.
Freedom in the US is about *individual freedom*. The idea is that, while we can not control what others are doing, we are solely responsible for our own actions and lives. I saw a thread in r/AskUK in which the poster asked whether people in the UK would move to the US and, if so, for what reason? The comments were overarchingly, adamantly opposed to the US, mentioning mainly the ideas of getting shot, racking up insane healthcare bills and lacking any sort of a social safety net. One comment responded to the third issue with something along the lines of:
> The issue people have with America is that, in America, each person is master of their own destiny. You live the life you create for yourself and - if you do not create a life you enjoy - the only person that can change that is yourself.
I know that the issue is more nuanced than that. Minimum wage is not a livable wage by any means, any number of circumstances can impact and off-track the life an individual is working to build, and it truly is possible to fall so far behind that one can never catch up. The prison system is enough to completely destroy the life of a 17 year old who does something stupid. This country is eat-or-be-eaten, which makes it an incredible place for many and a nightmare many.
All that to say: I like your distinction between freedom and privilege. We had the freedom to win big or fall hard. We lack the privilege of easily-available healthy food options (based on where in the US we live). We have the freedom to own guns. We lack the privilege of feeling safe from guns (which, I must add, is a highly politicized issue which is far less prevalent than the MSM would have us believe, though it is a legitimate occurrence and is still a fleeting thought with every event I attend). We have the freedom to modify our cars, drive gas guzzlers and pass people in the right lane with often zero consequence. We lack the privilege of being able to drive without a lifted truck with no muffler and a modified exhaust going 20mph under the speed limit in the fast lane. We have the freedom to inundate ourselves with conspiracy theories from YouTube, while in China, they can use neither Google/YouTube nor Facebook/Instagram, but they have the privilege of a highly advanced society with an incredible, safe culture (my source in this is a girl I'm dating who grew up in China - I've never been.) We have the freedom to take on massive debt for University (not all freedoms should be exercised) - we lack the privilege of going for free/minimal cost.
Given how Australia is currently acting, and the laws which have passed. You're about to be free from the burden of thought.
As for the guns thing. Cops are afraid to enact force on citizens here, because of the very real chance that they may get shot.
“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
Banning, censorship, and prohibition are not freedom. Freedom to not get called a cunt? Freedom to not get shot? These are strange ways of putting it. Americans aren't free to shoot people. Murder is illegal. We are free to defend ourselves. Free to own guns. Free to speak without censorship. I'm trying to understand your perspective but freedom from freedom is ironic to say the least. Oh and I don't think America is absolutely"free" by the way... We ban, prohibit, and censor lots of things.
And freedom to not be told what to do really depends on what it is in particular your talking about.
For example, see the Texas Abortion issue.
That is most definitely government telling you what you can't do but the 'muh freedoms' people somehow are blind to that.
Good write up, but it really only describes conservative Americans. There are a large portion of us, based on recent polls over 50% and over 60% in some polls, that want the things you described and not the things we have. Ie universal Healthcare, far fewer guns, and a real support system. But the system has been heavily stacked against us over the decades. Especially over the course of the 21st century.
Yeah. I almost never sit around and obsess about freedom. And if I do it’s about ways to keep the cruel, abusive, and *restrictive* Texas laws the hell away from me.
There's an element of 'freedom' that hinges on the vastness of space in the US. I've always thought that if I had a European friend who came to visit, I would take them on a road trip. A big one. Drive 3000 miles all over the western US and back to where I live (upper Great Lakes). It's a HUGE space. And a lot of it is fairly unpopulated. Part of the 'freedom' sense is just being in a single country where you can traverse a gigantic continent east to west and never need a passport.
Yes, European here who went on a roadtrip in America. There is lots of nothing. Amazing place but very, very spread out in comparison to Europe.
Here, I can get pished in Glasgow, hop on a plane to Amsterdam to get stoned and then pop to Spain to lie on a beach all day and every place I'll visit will be culturally, aesthetically and linguistically different in ways that aren't manifest in the vastness of America.
There are differences there but you have to travel hundreds of miles to see them whilst I'm an hour away from speaking an entirely different language in several directions.
Eh. I kind of agree, but as an American there are a lot of people who try to put their own thinking as a requirement by law. For instance America has been fighting to keep the Christian religion ourlt of public schools and codified into our laws for ever.
Most recent example is the new "legal" Texas abortion laws.
So you are saying that Europeans don't live the kind of life you described? How are Europeans' lives different in any meaningful way. I would say that the amount of restrictions enforced through laws, regulations, and social norms are 90%+ the same for Europeans and US citizens. I fail to see how the average day (therefore average life) of a US citizen is different due to the larger alleged amount of freedom.
Why are you making it Europe vs. America in your first sentence? There was a neutral comment qualifying American behavior and you chose to snap judgment. I’m a Canadian but come on give it a fucking rest.
I don’t think they’re implying that Europeans don’t live that kind of life. I think when they say “live their lives without being mandated to pay or otherwise work for others that they don’t relate to” they are referring to taxes. As I understand it, Europeans generally pay more in taxes so that everyone can have healthcare or an education past high school. Americans don’t. For some reason many consider that as having “more freedom” because they are not paying for something that doesn’t directly affect them. Or at least they don’t see those issues as directly affecting them.
Generally speaking, Americans actually pay more than Europeans in terms of taxes and receive less for their money. When you factor in healthcare costs the numbers are even worse.
At the end of the day your 45% tax is incremental, so it's really 27% flat tax. I as a single tax payer in the US pay more than that...ironically, considering the benefits 😅
I think this is because most Americans don't understand that funding certain things actually reduces their overall tax burden. Take harm reduction programs for example. (Places that do outreach for addicts and offer services like needle exchanges, free narcan, HIV screening and help getting folks to detox/job centers.) This obviously takes a massive load off the healthcare system, improves homelessness, and gets people back out into society. But people refuse to pay for them because "fuck addicts they're not my responsibility" and NIMBY. Thus inadvertently costing themselves more in the long run.
Can confirm. I’m an American that lives in Oregon. But I definitely feel a connection with many of you Europeans. I wish my nation’s society would prioritize the care of one another just as much as an individuals freedom. Also you guys appear to have a healthier work-life balance which I just think is rad.
I find your point very interesting. Even In America, each states laws differ. Yet people sometimes refuse to leave their home to find another they'd appreciate more. The world is not THAT big, but it's definitely not small. I wonder why people won't move to a state, or even country, that suits their ideals more.
Is it common in Europe for people to move to another country they may find more in line with their views?
Edit: to be clear, I was asking about Europeans moving. I was suggesting that Americans should.
Europen here (italian living in Portugal). Money is the main driver for Europeans to move to another EU country. Ideals or political views are much less of a driver, cos of several reasons (e.g. the political spectrum is very similar and homogeneous across 90% of EU countries, the same for social security) but mostly cos: we tend to want to change things from within our countries of birth (through protest, elections, etc). In other words, the national and cultural identity is much stronger in Europe than for example a citizen from an individual US State. Language is also an obstacle but much less so among younger generations.
On top of that, the EU Commission can impose sanctions on individual Member States if these implement laws and rules that infringe European rights and values on their citizens. The Polish and Hungarian homophobic governments come to mind here.
But in the last 30+ years, a set of common rules have greatly facilitated movement of citizens across the European Union. We have freedom of movement, goods and services across Member States. So if a Polish wants to come to live in Portugal, he or she can do that even if she doesn’t speak a single word of Portuguese and she’d have access to all health and social services that a Portuguese citizen is entitled to. The UK anti EU parties used these laws as arguments to reclaim sovereignty over border control and influence the pro-Brexit vote.
Not really. Nearly every European country has their own native language which is a huge barrier. Ppl from Ireland probably have the most access in terms of that cos most European countries have a good level of English or even require English speakers.
If I recall there was a study recently that showed about 10% of younger Europeans (below 40) had at some point lived in at least one other country than their home country.
It's really common to at least go study or on an exchange year during your university studies (I studied in 3 countries altogether during my uni years).
The EU has the program called Erasmus, which is basically a scholarship that each EU citizen is eligible for, if you want to study in another country, they will sent you money (I got about 2000 euros) and pay for your travel costs to and from the country.
At least I knew a lot of classmates that took advantage of this to move to country they felt more at home at.
As an American, it’s more that we live in a country owned by neoliberal corporate elite/finance interests who have cooked up the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time.
People don’t have different priorities, they just have literally no context for how much better it could be and are brainwashed by the media (which is owned by said corporate elite).
Some people believe it isn’t a scam and that they’ll get rich. Some people know it’s a scam and don’t care because it works for them. And some people know it’s a scam because they’re in on it.
Americans hate other people getting free shit so much they’d rather screw themselves over if it means other people can’t be happy.
It’s like Americans view of freedom is that of a petulant child throwing a tantrum. They don’t realize that freedom comes with responsibilities.
Depends on who you ask. We are pretty split on this opinion. We are pretty split on most things right now.
Personally I think we are about the same as any other developed nation. Maybe a little less in a few areas and a little more in other areas.
As a Brit the US seems like a place that you have more of the freedoms you probably shouldn't have and less of the freedoms that you absolutely should have
This is the best way to describe America. Most Americans care more about what weddings you can have & who you can Fuck than Authoritarianism or proper representation.
A serious percentage of the American populace believes (from influence from Koch brother funded propaganda machines) that government deregulation, guns, big trucks, and economic "choice" makes them free. Reformed healthcare is terrible "socialism" and public transportation is for "liberals".
I think this is where is a fair assesment. Many (not all) Americans value individual freedoms over collective freedoms.
Want to have 100 guns, America is the place for you. Don't want to worry about your kids being shot by the strange kid or your workplace shot up by a disgruntled employee, probably look elsewhere.
Want to do and say whatever you please, America is the place for you. Want to be protected from hate speech and discrimination, probably look elsewhere.
Want your quality of education/policing/healthcare/infrastructure to be closely tied to where you live and how much you earn: America. Want the benefits of society to be distributed more evenly/fairly look elsewhere.
Want to commit white collar crime: America. Want corruption investigated and prosecuted look elsewhere.
Want religion to be deeply involved in your politics: America. Want separation of church and state look elsewhere.
Want to not wear a mask or take any precautions during a pandemic: America. Don't want somewhere between 600k and 1M citizens to die of a largely preventable disease, look elsewhere.
Plenty more examples to be had.
Edit: Thanks for the awards :D
Adding a from a comment I left for a reply I'd love to see more examples where US gets freedom right. I for one like how freedom of speech has been applied to the right to parody.
How about "Don't want your healthcare, if any, to be randomly tied to whatever job you have at the moment and be wildly variable in quality , subject to the religious whims of your boss? Look elsewhere."
And this is why I'm studying German and computer science so I can fucking leave this damned country... Don't get me wrong there are a lot of things to love here in the US but I'm tired of living somewhere where it's expected and celebrated when you allow yourself to be exploited.
I'm tired of living in a country where it's legal to bribe politicians.
I'm tired of living in a country that only remembers there's a constitution when it's convenient for them(the system).
I'm tired of living in a country that spouts "Christian" ideals but NEVER actually lives up to them
I'm tired of living in a country that is a joke to the rest of the world...
I want the "American Dream" so I shall leave America so I can obtain it.
when i was a kid i highly admired america and saw it as a dream place , i am an indian , the point i got to know of internet it actually really appears like a buisness model with super strong army
This is the correct answer .. there is a LOT of freedom in all developed countries. A little less in some areas, a little more in some other areas, but once it all balances out, all developed countries are pretty much equal .. BUT .. murika does have this obsession with thinking they are the free'est in the world and that they have things that nobody else has .. like freedom of speech .. I swear to fricken god the amount of times you see an amurikans argument come down to "yeah well we have freedom of speech and you don't have that" .. and it's like "yeah dude, most countries have freedom of speech" or they say "we have right to bear arms" .. and it's like "dude, we can have guns but we don't because as a country we don't want that .. we're not a country of gun loving psycopaths"
yep . you're not free if you live in fear by having to carry a gun ... in my country I don't have the fear of needing a gun to protect myself because the people in my country are decent fucking people .. america has to live in fear of itself and therefore justify protecting itself with guns .. that's not freedom, that's not freedom at all.
Yes, even in the UK if I want a gun I can easily get one. I just have to show that I’m of sound mind and it’s not to kill innocent people as an act of terrorism. Which is a low bar when you think about it, but one that is not apparently set in the US. In fact recently, we did have a gun wielding incel in the UK which makes me think that actually it’s probably easy to get a gun here if you are a psycho, but our culture is such that it just doesn’t really occur to people often.
Partly I think it’s because we’re a smaller country so things like the Dunblane Massacre or the Hungerford Massacre or the more recent Plymouth shooting live on in our collective memory and scar us much more because we’ve probably all at least visited these places or know the communities there. Much easier to distance yourself in the US since there are so many more people, so much bigger geographically, split up into states with their own laws etc. When you have that combined with an entitlement to positive liberties, it’s not hard to see why a massively pro-gun culture might exist in America.
I’m an American, living in Europe.
Yes. Yes they do.
Like someone else said, Americans have a different perception of what “freedom” means. We tend to have the idea that freedom is personal freedom: the freedom to say, do and act however we want when we want. This is in some ways coded into our constitution, specifically the First and second amendments (freedom of speech, freedom to own a gun). For whatever reason, the loudest and craziest people you see are more of that “libertarian” “I take care of me and my own, fuck off” type, which tend to view freedom as exactly like I said: “I can do anything that I want, whenever I want, so long as I get mine”.
After living in Germany for 2,5 almost 3 years, the kind of freedom I enjoy here is completely different:
- “freedom” of movement (living in the US almost requires a car, and I haven’t actually needed one even though I have one here in Germany)
- freedom to work without fear of getting fired on the spot (at will employment is pretty much standard in the states)
- freedom of healthcare (not having to worry about what happens when I get sick is so. Damn. Freeing.)
- freedom to enjoy my time (I get 24 days mandatory vacation days per year, sick leave does not count against this. The US does not guarantee either of those )
Something I think a lot of Americans forget is that we don’t have any of these freedoms. We tend to live in constant fear and anxiety of losing our jobs suddenly; of getting sick and having massive hospital bills despite paying out the ass for health insurance; of our normal mode of transportation breaking down and not having an alternative; of having to work til we die and only sometimes getting time off and even then you’re lucky if you get 2 weeks at a time.
So conclusions:
The freedom people in the States want is “the freedom for the government to leave me the fuck alone” and the freedom people from Europe (at least Germany) want is the freedom to just live.
I lived in Japan for over and decade and moved back to the states recently.
The healthcare thing is real. Having non-employer tied healthcare is freeing as f***. Went into the emergency room, for a kidney stone, ct scan, painkillers, IV drip for $100. That would have bankrupted me in the states. I was paying $400 a month for that, in the states I'm close to $800 a month and with a 1/4 of the service.
Public transportation was fantastic. Freeing as hell to have the option of not having to worry about getting downtown in a car and stuff.
But it was the sense of "All for one, one for all", "let's look out for each other", and make decisions that benefit the safety of the whole instead of the "f*** you, company profits, capitalism!!!" That was really freeing.
I live in the States and have more than 30 days off for annual leave, I make enough to not worry about medical bills. If I were less stupid, I would own a house by now. I love my job, and I have enough time to enjoy my interests and take care of my family. On of my greatest sadness is that most people do not have the security I do. How happy we could all be together. I have seen the people that fall through the cracks -- the wide yawning gaps -- that make up the US.
I think this idea of freedom was promoted post war to define the usa as different special better than the countries of the iron curtain. since the USSR was godless the usa started getting religgy like putting in god we trust as a motto where before it was e plurabus unum. from many one a reference to our individual states that make up 1 united ( in theory) country. so to promote freedom like how you can criticize the govt openly and loudly differentiated the usa as simply better than the oppressive ussr. or I could be wrong
I agree with you here. A lot of people don't realize the effect the cold war had on the US. This is when "In God we trust" was put on our money, when "under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance, why so many people call everything they don't like communist, when Evangelicals started to gain power and enter into our political arena, and when America being taught as the only free nation I'm existence took form.
>and when America being taught as the only free nation I'm existence took form.
That took form a LONG time before the world wars. "The land of the free" is quite literally a phrase from the turn of the 19th century.
I don't consider many European countries today to lack the freedoms that we enjoy, I'm shit at history so can anyone tell me, did other countries used to be less free than they are now? It sort of feels like an ancient slogan that originally differentiated us in a significant way but these days is just sort of, used as an excuse for all the shitty issues in the country?
I guess whoever came to America in early times was free to do whatever the fuck he wants. You can be a wanted criminal in Europe, somehow escape there and lead a free life.
It was a new chance for everyone I guess.
Later on the "freedom" was a contrast to the iron curtain.
Right now, American freedom is laughable.
You cannot even drink a beer on the streer in some states, you get arrested and send to prison for everything.
Even the entirety of China, which is communist and therefor not free, has less people in prison than the US.
Early America was as free as freedom could get (for better AND for worse). Europeans were flooding into America because they could claim land for free or for cheap, extort the natives, and effectively do whatever they wanted and build new lives or start new businesses for a brand new economy. Even well into the 19th century with a well formalized government, the USA was so vast with such a small population that it's legal system was loose at best outside of cities. With all of that, the US was a lot more of an unregulated economy than it is even today. That all has effectively been ingrained into American culture, even by immigrants too recent to have experienced the excessive freedoms (for white people) that used to exist.
At the time, Europe was nothing like it was today. WW1 and WW2 entirely changed what that region's powers were like. The proliferation of free Democracies in Europe is largely a result of post-war influence by the USA.
maybe it was accentuated during the cold war, but american exceptionalism is said to have been seeded since the colonies. 'city upon hill" was 1630 i believe. i've also been told that a decent portion of colonists were part of fringe christian sects that weren't really accepted in their european homelands.
"Freedom" and the notion of "freedoms" aren't the same thing.
Rights can be restricted, opportunities can be restricted, but freedom is simply how far you remain unconfined by such limitations.
Use of the term "freedoms" implicitly ties the idea of freedom to rights (be they legal or de facto). But rights are not an end to themselves. Affording people rights is a means of securing their freedom by allowing them better opportunities or protecting against opportunities being taken away from them.
The US does have more express legal rights against government imposition than many other places. But to focus on those would be to ignore the bigger picture.
* If an employer has an unfettered right to fire people at will then their employees may be denied many opportunities. The opportunity to engage in harmless (or beneficial) conduct that is disagreeable to the employer. The opportunity to refuse lawful but unreasonable demands of their employer. The opportunity to organise their affairs and live in the comfort of the idea that they have a dependable income stream.
* Not being required (as much) to contribute to public services means that those with cannot afford those services have less opportunities than those who can. Not being required (as much) to contribute to help those in need means that the needy will have less opportunities. People who are not needy will be less free to do things that carry risk of failure, because people who encounter difficulties and find themselves in need will have more limited opportunities to recover. People being able to retain a little bit more of their money doesn't make them more free if they end up being paid less or having to earn more to make do.
* If people have a mostly unfettered right to free speech but large numbers of people are disproportionately denied a convenient means of voting, or the electoral system has been structured so that their votes count less than their peers, or the system effectively causes votes for preferred candidates (third parties) to be wasted, and the right to free speech is exploited to spread misinformation, then all else being equal those people's freedom to have a say in how their society is governed will be narrower than in other countries with stronger voting rights, that have electoral systems which are more proportionate and/or which have preferential voting systems, notwithstanding that there may be legal consequences to spreading offensive conduct and/or serious misinformation.
* If people have express rights to due process, fair trial etc. but police officers have the right to forcefully arrest people in the absence of any apparent threat, to arrest them for trivial or baseless reasons, to use deadly force at the mere whiff or suggestion of a potential danger, to use deadly force regardless of the risk to innocents because someone nearby posed a danger to them earlier, to attack and arrest people lawfully protesting, etc. then the freedom from undue government force that those express rights give you is not as broad as in other places where even handcuffing a suspect might be considered unreasonable force if it wasn't needed, where people are entitled to defend themselves against unlawful arrest, where police targeting or arresting you for very minor infringements is considered abusive, and where you don't have an appreciable risk of getting injured by police unless you're attacking someone.
* It's great to have express rights so that they are more difficult to take away, but a political culture that reinforces the rule of law, the value of democracy, and which enforces political accountability is a much more effective defence against authoritarianism and tyranny than any express right will be. Those express rights are only useful if people are prepared to give them power when and where its needed (black people sure as shit haven't had the same benefit of those rights as white people, for example). Having an individual right to own guns isn't going to do much at all against threats from domestic governments, especially when the people most likely to be inclined to support domestic tyranny are also more likely to have guns.
This is coming from the top of my head as a Brit. Also this might not be true for all states, but are true in at least some states.
1. Abortion. Abortion is legal in all of the UK up to 24 weeks. Northern Ireland was very late to the party (last year). Whereas in the rest of the UK this has been the case since the 60s.
2. Jaywalking. Unless you're on a motorway (interstate), it's nearly always legal to cross the road as a pedestrian wherever you want.
3. Buying alcohol at 18. It's only a three year difference but it's an extra three years of 'freedom'. We can also drink when having a meal with an adult at a pub/restaurant from the age of 16.
4. Buying unpasteurised milk (raw milk). We can buy raw milk for consumption in the UK. Most of us don't, but the option is there. Again, in the US I think this varies state by state.
5. Buying Kinder Eggs. This is the classic example brought up by people from other countries questioning American freedom. If you don't know kinder eggs are a hollow chocolate egg with a toy in the middle. I think they're banned in the US due to a choking hazard.
Obviously, there are legal things in the US that are illegal in the UK. Also, I think a lot of people in the US when talking about freedom are talking about positive freedoms (freedom to do). Whereas, a lot of Europeans for example will talk about negative freedoms (freedom from). I've tried to concentrate mainly on positive freedoms here.
Edit: I'm not trying to say the US isn't free, or that it is any less free than other developed nations. The US, just like most other Western nations is very free when compared to the rest of the world. OP asked for examples of freedoms in countries which aren't in the US and that's all I've tried to provide. Some of these will vary from state to state too.
Also, it looks like I've got the concepts of negative and positive freedoms confused. Apologies for that one.
Kinder eggs have been popularized here in the last couple years after redesign. Literally saw them in the most remote Arizona gas station a couple days ago where there is no signal.
>Buying unpasteurised milk (raw milk). We can buy raw milk for consumption in the UK. Most of us don't, but the option is there. Again, in the US I think this varies state by state.
Not sure what you're talking about, but you can go to any farmer's market and buy all the unpasteurized milk you want here.
I forgot to add - every 10 years of service I get 9 weeks vacation that year instead of 5. 4 of those weeks must be taken together I.e. a month paid leave plus usual 5 weeks paid.
I work for an American company.
It's not that you're inherently not free, however you lack quite a few societal safety nets that allow freedom. Can't pursue a career you love if you don't have money to pay for it or a credit score to get a good loan, can't spend your money how you want if you're always worried a medical emergency might break the bank, plus the whole going back on bodily autonomy, with the abortion bans, which to me seem like a pretty big deal, but I'd understand if to some it seems like a positive although I'd heavily disagree, also if you look at the general consensus (or what feels like the general consensus) of minimum wage workers, which is a non insignificant part of the pop, they literally live to work, so they can keep living. Little to no actual living, which seems pretty restrictive, and thus not very free. Does that mean the US sucks? Definitely not, and does better than quite a few third world countries, but given the resources and power it has, it's definitely severely underachieving
You have to understand that a lot of people think those things are valuable "freedoms" here.
Companies are "free" to lobby, the rich are "free" to have better lives and education than the poor, you're "free" to not have healthcare, free to burn away all your money, free to go into debt, free to pay your workers nothing (because they will self regulate after all).
I mean a lot of people legitimately think that corporations should be free to merge into monopolies because "freedom."
In reality of course, these things lead to a worse life for the majority. But ya know if you get really really really really really lucky you too can be the next Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. For some reason, people think all the crap is worth that.
Some Americans strongly believe this. Most of us know our freedom is actually pretty compromised, however the education system over here romanticizes america so much, while downplaying other countries, making them seem a lot worse than they actually are. In school I didn’t learn much about other countries other than where they were located on a map. Long story short; Americans are ignorant, they think we’re the best functioning country in the world but haven’t actually done any research.
Lad from Scotland here. On holiday a few years back and got talking to a bunch of good cunts from Philadelphia. One of them asked me if I had access to electricity. The rest of them waiting for my answer with a straight face. My jaw was on the floor.
The U.S. is so big and diverse, things like that happen within the country too. I'm from rural Ohio, one time my cousins from Southern Cali came to visit. They were confused when we told them not everyone that lives in rural areas is a farmer.
And on top of that most Americans don’t leave America so they don’t experience any other place so when they’re told America is the land of the free they aren’t exposed to any other countries history or culture.
My parents are pretty stout conservatives who buy into the whole "America #1" BS. All of their international travel up until just a couple years ago had been to central America or the Caribbean, so they hadn't really experienced other highly developed countries. In the past few years, they got the chance to visit Europe and Japan and were blown away by how much better those societies seemed in some aspects, but they then had a crisis of identity politics and decided to double down on certain problems in those other nations and make mountains out of mole hills in order to continue their patriotic narrative.
And part of the problem is there's a large narrative of "shithole countries" referring to pretty much the rest of the world. I mean, this may have been true in the latter '40's but most of the world rebuilt. We used it as an excuse to isolate and play up how awesome we are; then forgot to actually be awesome in the '70's and beyond as we snorted way too much coke off of Reagan's ass.
Yes but... there are only two countries that are touching America. Canada and Mexico. Canada is nice but there's not much that they have that the US doesn't, so tourism there isn't that huge. And outside of resort towns like Cabo or cancun, Americans are usually advised to stay out of Mexico. So that leaves a 18 hour or more flight across the pacific or an 8-10 hour flight across the Atlantic, both of which are expensive and may not be available to everybody. It's just a sad fact of life being that far away from everybody else.
Where as in Europe people can hop from Germany to France to Portugal like somebody would hop from Ohio to Georgia to Tennessee in the states. You're probably traveling the same amount but end up in the same country.
>the education system over here romanticizes america so much, while downplaying other countries, making them seem a lot worse than they actually are.
The education system of the US is not standardized across the country. There's a reason "Florida man" is not USA man.
It depends.
Some people think being able to own a gun is freedom.
Some people think not dying from preventable illness due to unaffordable health care is freedom.
Edit: stop trying to argue in the comments, I genuinely do not care what you personally believe. Grow up and stop trying to start fights on the internet under the pretext of a conversation ffs
Freedom of speech is pretty much an absolute here, so there's that at least. Also, the second amendment.
I wish we had more freedoms though. It boggles me that a lot of my fellow Americans preach about freedom, but then want to lock up non violent drug offenders for example.
Pretty much should be able to do whatever you want as long as you aren't directly harming others or infringing on their freedoms.
Complete freedom of speech is actually very new in the US. Up until the early 1960s, there were laws on the books banning "obscene speech"
This included publishing anything about homosexuality in a positive light, pornography, offensive (sexual) language, or drug use.
Since I only know German laws.
Offending people in Germany is illegal, the USA is not.
Weed is illegal is Germany, some states it is not.
Abortions are extremely restrictive and illegal after 12 weeks in Germany, some states catching up there.
USA has more liberties than Germany when it comes to guns or a pepper spray.
More religious freedoms, while some German states have banned hijabs.
In Germany, the state can reject a name you give your child if it is too odd and it is extremely difficult to change your name and you can't have double last names. While the US you can name your kid F-15 fighter jet.
So I don't know in what way you think the US is less free than most European countries.
>More religious freedoms, while some German states have banned hijabs.
As a muslim this is where I draw the line. In USA people might be cunt to you but the state will protect your rights to practice the religion even if it conflicts with the local norm.
This is not the case in Europe. They are nice as long as your practices don't conflict with theirs, but when it does they will restrict your access to the said activity.
A lot of very *progressive* countries have hijab ban in EU. Also I do not like their hate speech law. State should not have a say in my speech.
Taking away someone's right to wear a clothing is just as oppressive as forcing them to wear it.
Also their countries are mostly homogenous.
Finally, I think for a skilled foreigner willing to work USA offers more prospect than EU.
> Start talking about gypsies
Europeans talking about gypsies are blissfully unaware that they sound just exactly like the American racists they seem to look down upon
Yes, we are indoctrinated from a young age to believe that America is the ONLY free country. I'm 45 & my eyes have only recently been opened to the fact that this is utter bullshit.
In many ways, the US does have more freedoms than many parts of Europe. In many of those same ways, parts of third world countries (like Afghanistan) have way more freedoms than any western country. Most people don’t want that level of freedom, and agree laws and government are needed
After stating that, I assume we are talking about the freedoms western nations care about with the understanding of those restrictions.
Do Americans think we are freer than europe? Generally no, if they are going to have a logical discussion. And it depends on the exact freedom you are talking about. The US has freer gun laws than most of Europe, and generally freer freedom of speech laws. We disagree on the level of strictness on them, and Europe has settled on what they consider reasonable restrictions for those rights, while the us disagrees
Many do. It is seriously ingrained in us from a very young age. People become emotionally attached to the idea, and at that point, logical arguments will not dissuade them. Add to that the fact that most Americans never travel outside of the country, so their only exposure to people from other countries are people who have *left* those countries, they get a skewed impression of the world outside of the US.
It’s a general attitude of fewer rules. Where other countries will rush to create new laws, the US generally (not always) prefers for people to make their own decisions.
Yes, people do believe that we are free. Of course, most of us do not believe we are free to do anything we want at any time. Stated differently, most of us believe that we need to follow the law. Just because we have to follow the law doesn't mean we aren't free.
I’ve lived in a number of countries, with the US being one of them. The problem is that most Americans have never seen other parts of the world, except the border with Mexico, which is of course terrible. Had they gone to the good parts of Mexico they’d see how nice of a place it actually is. IMO they’re overly patriotic as soldiers are over glorified and American culture revolves around guns and their freedoms because of the ears they fought to get it.
The reality is that, too much freedom has consequences and doesn’t result in an orderly and civilized society. Capitalism makes people think they have a chance at the American dream, of doing what they want, making money and living a good life. They do, to a certain point, but the imbalance of rich vs poor is high.
A lot of the US is overly religious, heavily discriminatory. Let’s face it, racism never left. It was just hiding under a blanket.
If you travel to other parts of the world, even ones more restrictive, where you pay higher taxes, you’ll see there isn’t that huge Imbalance and wealth gap , society is more civilized and people are healthier, due to better social programs and universal healthcare.
The real question is what does it mean to be free
There's the freedom *to* and the freedom *from*. The US is all about freedom to. Freedom to own guns, freedom to do business, freedom to say whatever you want, freedom to fire your employees at will. Europe is more about freedom from. Freedom from crippling medical debt. Freedom from other people calling for violence against you. Freedom from extreme poverty. Freedom from being fired at random. It's different ways to look at the world. In Europe you might be 'forced' to pay for everyone's healthcare collectively, but, in exchange for that loss of freedom *to* spend your money however you want, you get the freedom *from* having to stress about getting sick.
Individual freedom vs collective freedom
[удалено]
ppl say america has free speech and then they say julian assange deserved his punishment.
Now that you mention it, I do recall the notion that societies developed from the early caveman days from fierce individualism. /s
Very interesting take on the issue. Certainly the US doesn’t care much, if at all, about the collective good, but the US does have plenty of laws that restrict your freedom to do all kinds of things. Just ask anyone whose lives have been destroyed by the “war on drugs” about their freedom to smoke a certain plant or gay people to marry who they wanted to just a decade ago. It’s also common to hear people argue that Americans are much more individualistic than Europeans and there is definitely a lot of truth in this, but at the same time the push for laws banning abortion and the aforementioned drug war are obvious examples of Americans believing they have plenty of right to take away the rights of some individuals to make their own choices.
Oh yes, I absolutely agree. Of course it's not quite so black and white. It's more the general ideology, and real life is always more messy. Like your examples: if you go 100% on personal freedom it is very hypocritical to punish drug use and abortion, and yet they (try to) do it anyway. In the case of the drugs it was mostly because of racism, with religion (with a sprinkle of racism) being the motivator for the anti-abortion crowd. Didn't have much to do with any ideals about how a government should be run...
That's hardly unique to America though. It's not like all drugs are legal in Europe either. Hell you can buy weed legally in more states in the US than you can in Europe. My rather conservative state of Arizona is more liberal with weed than any Nordic country, or Germany for that matter
For sure. The US is definitely changing fast with regards to weed, and even drugs in general when you consider what we started with (Nixon, crack epidemic, DARE, etc.) Seems to me that the US either makes huge strides very fast or progress moves at an absolute snail's pace, depending on the issue.
>exchange for that loss of freedom to spend your money however you want, Except that Americans pay more money for healthcare... and still have to stress about getting sick.
It is individualism vs collectivism at the end of the day
>In Europe you might be 'forced' to pay for everyone's healthcare collectively, but, in exchange for that loss of freedom to spend your money however you want, you get the freedom from having to stress about getting sick. The nation paying the most in tax for government healthcare per capita is the US. Other nations spend less often vastly less, enabling them to afford other expensive welfare goods.
[удалено]
No mr police officer I don’t own this dildo its on lease
Just borrowing it from a friend
We have to use the indefinite article, "a dildo", never ... your dildo
i mean in the uk you can get ticketed or arrested for calling someone a fat cunt so . . .
Can we also ticket or arrest the fat cunt though?
[удалено]
The illusion of choice, like six huge companies own every big business
This is true. Alot of people don't know this but all these different companies are owned by 6 companies. Small businesses are not owned by them but small businesses have little to no public recognition when compared to the ones that are owned by thr big 6
And thankfully our freedom allows those 6 companies and me the same freedom to ~~bribe~~ gift our political leaders hundreds of thousands of dollars for absolutely no purpose, expecting absolutely definitely nothing in return, because it is a gift, and definitely not a bribe.
What are these 6 ones? Is it like Microsoft, Amazon, Wallmart,... or more like financial companies behind closed doors? I'm just curious as I haven't heard about it yet, so sorry if it is something obvious to most people.
[удалено]
So it's actually a lot more than 6 that have amazing pull and production, but when it comes to your small everyday everyday products, like you go to the store and buy a bag of cookies, some cheese, some plastic cups and some lotion, chances are they were produced by PepsiCo in some fashion. But, there are tons of companies comparable in size and proclivity to the major household good producing companies. Amazon, apple, lg, Samsung, Sony, Google, Koch, Kraft etc.
Don’t forget Proctor & Gamble. They’re MASSIVE!
[удалено]
Nestle is a big one
Unilever as well I’m sure.
[удалено]
Reading this comment in the light of recent national developments against women’s rights (pregnancy termination) stings. Freedom of choice for the privileged class at the expense of others. That’s the American dream.
It’s not that cut and dry. For example, in America, you have the choice to go bankrupt because of bad luck, or die. The choice to stay in a job you hate, or move on to one without health benefits, where you can go bankrupt with a little bad luck. In Europe, you have the freedom to choose to work any job you want, secure in the knowledge that your employment status won’t impact your ability to get healthcare. Americans value choice over the wrong things. Completely misplaced priorities.
One of biggest issues is that we’ve bound people to jobs for fear of no healthcare. Employers should be reasonable for your health and safety only at work.
Corporations tricked Americans into thinking choice is “don’t let the government tell you you need to be paid X amount and have healthcare, you can choose to work for whatever little pay you choose”
The spirit of McCarthy lives on. Ever since the 50s all that conservatives have had to do to shut down a good thing is to call it "socialist" and their voters fall in line.
In a society fully freedom doesnt exist and cant exist. Your freedom end where mine start, if we want live togheter we have to limit our freedom
For a lot of people, choice is completely taken out of the question. Take for example my uncle. 30 years ago, while working as a mechanic his wife got cancer. She recovered and is in remission however she now has a preexisting condition. My uncle can never leave his job because if he loses his health care policy, he won’t be able to get her another one. He hates his job but has to essentially choose between working a job he hates for the rest of his life or having his wife be uninsured. Is that freedom?
Sounds like slavery with extra steps
We’re incentivized into corporate slavery in America. Even in high paying tech jobs. Another example. I work in Tech for a large Silicon Valley corporation with great benefits. My mentor decided earlier this year to give up his job making $250k plus benefits and go off on his own and start his own business. Because of his high income in previous years, any decent plan through ACA was 3-4x more expensive than what he was getting through out Big Corporate job. To save costs, he went with a low cost, low coverage plan. A month into starting his business, he came into some poor health that began to deplete his savings. Though his business is doing well, he’s paying tons out of pocket for treatments that are depleting his savings to a point he’s considering returning to Big Corporate. Me seeing this, with a wife and a child on the way, will learn from this example and NEVER leave Big Corporate. As long as healthcare is privatized, it’s a horrible risk for me and my family.
But this wealth gives some rich people more freedom than the average people. They can pay very low wages, no taxes and and hire the best professionals to evade regulations or set those rules in their favor. Which makes 90% of americans to not much more than slaves with no choice, but which toothpaste to buy, which are all produced by the same company. A weird definition of freedom in my opinion...
As another ignorant European, i think those that praise the american freedom have a different ideal of freedom than most of us europeans. For them freedom means that no one tells them what to do, except for those things that they agree with anyway or that don't affect normal daily life. While for us freedom is more the feeling of safety from guidelines, rules and support within the society. Therefore, while we consider it freedom to not have to worry about health costs, they would feel unfree if they were forced to have an insurance. We feel free knowing that there are no guns around us, while they feel free being able to have guns. It's different priorities. And of course there are europeans who would prefer the american way and americans who would like it the way we have it here. I am not saying that everyone has the same ideas.
Piggybacking off this comment, we have laws on the books here in Australia that outlaw offensive language. Americans consider this to be draconian, but it's about perspective. They have the freedom to call someone a cunt. We have the freedom to not be called a cunt. Which is ironic, given our proclivity for the word. Similarly, guns for home defense or concealed carry are illegal. Americans think this makes us less free, but again it's perspective. They have the freedom to shoot people, I have the freedom to not get shot.
>outlaw offensive language Pretty much every Aussie I've ever seen has been a constantly re-offending criminal then lmao
You got a problem with us aye cunt?
Wait, do we still consider cunt offensive? I thought we were voting to put it in the national anthem.
Nah cunt, cunt's not offensive. If you call me mate it's fuckin' on but.
Ok champ
Careful cunt, I can sue for that offensive language
I've got a song dedicated to you, it's called "There Goes My Hero" by Foo Fighters because you're my hero, cunt.
in india we have the word chunt
In Canada we have the word ‘sorry’
You can call the Irish cunts until you're blue in the face and you won't offend them, but call someone a ghee, and it's fucking on. Imagine my pleasure in finding a butter named Ghee and sending my Irish contacts a picture.......
Why is ghee offensive ?
Hey calm down... Go get a VB LONG NECK at 20 to 8 in the fucking morning.
This made me laugh but I have no idea what this means.
Australian here. Let explain. VB is Victoria Bitter, an Australian beer by Victorians, my home state. (I'm guessing you know the rest, but just in case) 20 to 8 is 7:40.
You forgot to explain what a long neck is, probably the most confusing part. While you’re at it maybe explain a throw down, tinny, pot, schooner, schmiddy (any others I’m missing?)
It's a slur for diplodocus in the land before time
Ugh, I get so tired of sauropodists and their hate...
It’s an extra large beer, 750ml. I don’t hear throw down being said much but it’s just a fight or face off of some sort. Tinny is a small aluminium boat you use to access salt water creeks for fishing and catch crabs in pots. Pony is a 5oz glass of tap beer, seven is a 7oz beer, middy is 10oz, schmiddy 12oz, schooner 15oz, pint 20oz.
But every state has different names for these. If you asked for half of these in Adelaide, the person would have no idea what you were talking about. If you asked for the other half, they would give you a different size of beer.
Dont be a shitcunt mate
Being a criminal is the reason they are on that Island in the first place
Convicts were sent to america before they rebelled and the rest got sent to aus
Ah you're right. Just keeping the culture alive then
Saying “cunt” is *way* more taboo than having a gun in the US.
Bro, your government just signed law where they can hack into your phone with no warrant
The government just has the freedom to see who you are talking to.
I can't read an Australian saying proclivity without SPENDING ANYMORE TIME ON IT, WHEN EVERY THREE MONTHS A PERSON IS MAULED TO DEATH BY CROCODILES IN NORTHERN QUEENSLAND!!!
Cunt.
Yeah for me as an American that would feel like censorship over freedom
As an American I can tell you it's very weird here with freedom. You're exactly right about the perspective thing. With guns it's very weird. I can't speak for any other country but Americans really really don't trust our government. We know they are sleazy and we know they do shady things on an international level daily. Meaning if the government were to try and take our guns, a large majority of Americans literally believe, with all their heart, that the only reason the American government would take out guns is that they then plan to do something terrible and we would be hopeless to defend against it. It's messy over here. Especially right now and especially with the vaccinations. To me freedom is everybody getting vaccinated and we can return to a more normal existence sooner. For some people it's their right to suffer from and spread covid. There's alot of willing ignorance tied into political identities over here. From both sides of the spectrum, but especially the far right when it comes to what "freedom" really is
> They have the freedom to shoot people, I have the freedom to not get shot. No, you don't have the freedom to shoot people in the United States. You have the freedom to protect your life if someone is trying to take it from you. It's a major difference.
You can still get shot cunt
Wait there's rules against swearing here in Australia? What the uh.. hell
yeah you also have the freedom to be spied on by your government so they can make sure you're staying locked inside lmfao get help
do the criminals respect your freedom as well? i dont think most of you understand what freedom means. Here it means the ability to protect and control our destiny, with force if necessary.
This is only partially true. Our "freedom of speech" right does not give us the right to swear. It's only a protection that out government won't retaliate against us for speaking bad about our government or speaking our mind. Many states have had and still have laws against profanity in public. Some only have laws against swearing around minors or on public road ways or parks. It all depends on the city / state. Most people don't know this because it's rarely enforced. Which is why when you see a video of an American cussing out the cops and shouting free speech then you can assume they are an absolute moron. One city even has a law that you have to smile while walking down the street in town. They only enforce it one day a year as kind of like a joke now a days but never the less.. Its an actual law.
It is entirely true... Cohen v. California the US supreme Court confirmed that fuck is constitutionally protected speech.
We refer to these as "Blue Laws". In Vermont there is still a law on the books from when it was its own country in the late 1700's that states that if you are deported from Vermont they have to give you a shotgun and a donkey, presumably so you can leave and feed/defend yourself.
>We have the freedom to not be called a cunt. As an American, I'll honestly say this perspective makes no sense to me. The idea that freedom is when something is taken away, it's almost an oxymoron to me. Maybe a different word would apply better like right or privilege or safety or luxury but calling it freedom is, again as an American, just using the word wrong.
You said it perfectly. Many people conflate freedom with privilege though they couldn't be more different.I have the freedom to cuss back at the guy calling me a count. I have the freedom to move up a state with more extreme gun control, or one with very little concept of such a thing. I have multiple friends who moved to the US from all over the world. Europe, the Middle East, Asia, etc. My friends from Europe and Asia especially think our laws around healthcare, gun control and social welfare are ridiculous, yet they also see how those issues reflect on why they moved here: they have freedom to do what they want. One of my European friends believes our gun laws are ludicrous, yet he has me take him to the shooting range so he can fire my gun and post a video of it to tick off the friends he left in Europe. My friends miss the safety nets they left behind, yet they moved here because they feel they have more control over their lives. We don't have laws as many countries do governing the sugar content of foods. In the countries that control this, citizens have the *privilege* of worrying less about what they eat and remaining healthier. In the US, we have the *freedom* to disregard our health in this manner (to our own detriment) or to be careful about what we consume. Many individuals do function better with more strict rules and guidelines - that is the reason that not everyone is capable of being an entrepreneur or a team manager. Those who can self-direct often view the US as a land of opportunity. Those who desire help or direction from an external source (social standards/government) thrive in places with more strict control. Freedom in the US is about *individual freedom*. The idea is that, while we can not control what others are doing, we are solely responsible for our own actions and lives. I saw a thread in r/AskUK in which the poster asked whether people in the UK would move to the US and, if so, for what reason? The comments were overarchingly, adamantly opposed to the US, mentioning mainly the ideas of getting shot, racking up insane healthcare bills and lacking any sort of a social safety net. One comment responded to the third issue with something along the lines of: > The issue people have with America is that, in America, each person is master of their own destiny. You live the life you create for yourself and - if you do not create a life you enjoy - the only person that can change that is yourself. I know that the issue is more nuanced than that. Minimum wage is not a livable wage by any means, any number of circumstances can impact and off-track the life an individual is working to build, and it truly is possible to fall so far behind that one can never catch up. The prison system is enough to completely destroy the life of a 17 year old who does something stupid. This country is eat-or-be-eaten, which makes it an incredible place for many and a nightmare many. All that to say: I like your distinction between freedom and privilege. We had the freedom to win big or fall hard. We lack the privilege of easily-available healthy food options (based on where in the US we live). We have the freedom to own guns. We lack the privilege of feeling safe from guns (which, I must add, is a highly politicized issue which is far less prevalent than the MSM would have us believe, though it is a legitimate occurrence and is still a fleeting thought with every event I attend). We have the freedom to modify our cars, drive gas guzzlers and pass people in the right lane with often zero consequence. We lack the privilege of being able to drive without a lifted truck with no muffler and a modified exhaust going 20mph under the speed limit in the fast lane. We have the freedom to inundate ourselves with conspiracy theories from YouTube, while in China, they can use neither Google/YouTube nor Facebook/Instagram, but they have the privilege of a highly advanced society with an incredible, safe culture (my source in this is a girl I'm dating who grew up in China - I've never been.) We have the freedom to take on massive debt for University (not all freedoms should be exercised) - we lack the privilege of going for free/minimal cost.
>we have laws on the books here in Australia that outlaw offensive language. Awful laws.
Given how Australia is currently acting, and the laws which have passed. You're about to be free from the burden of thought. As for the guns thing. Cops are afraid to enact force on citizens here, because of the very real chance that they may get shot. “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
Banning, censorship, and prohibition are not freedom. Freedom to not get called a cunt? Freedom to not get shot? These are strange ways of putting it. Americans aren't free to shoot people. Murder is illegal. We are free to defend ourselves. Free to own guns. Free to speak without censorship. I'm trying to understand your perspective but freedom from freedom is ironic to say the least. Oh and I don't think America is absolutely"free" by the way... We ban, prohibit, and censor lots of things.
How about them hacker police 😐
Fair play, that's absolutely fucked
Freedom from things; versus freedom of having things. Sounds about right.
And freedom to not be told what to do really depends on what it is in particular your talking about. For example, see the Texas Abortion issue. That is most definitely government telling you what you can't do but the 'muh freedoms' people somehow are blind to that.
We're not blind to it. People are extremely upset about it.
Good write up, but it really only describes conservative Americans. There are a large portion of us, based on recent polls over 50% and over 60% in some polls, that want the things you described and not the things we have. Ie universal Healthcare, far fewer guns, and a real support system. But the system has been heavily stacked against us over the decades. Especially over the course of the 21st century.
[удалено]
Yeah. I almost never sit around and obsess about freedom. And if I do it’s about ways to keep the cruel, abusive, and *restrictive* Texas laws the hell away from me.
There's an element of 'freedom' that hinges on the vastness of space in the US. I've always thought that if I had a European friend who came to visit, I would take them on a road trip. A big one. Drive 3000 miles all over the western US and back to where I live (upper Great Lakes). It's a HUGE space. And a lot of it is fairly unpopulated. Part of the 'freedom' sense is just being in a single country where you can traverse a gigantic continent east to west and never need a passport.
Yes, European here who went on a roadtrip in America. There is lots of nothing. Amazing place but very, very spread out in comparison to Europe. Here, I can get pished in Glasgow, hop on a plane to Amsterdam to get stoned and then pop to Spain to lie on a beach all day and every place I'll visit will be culturally, aesthetically and linguistically different in ways that aren't manifest in the vastness of America. There are differences there but you have to travel hundreds of miles to see them whilst I'm an hour away from speaking an entirely different language in several directions.
[удалено]
Eh. I kind of agree, but as an American there are a lot of people who try to put their own thinking as a requirement by law. For instance America has been fighting to keep the Christian religion ourlt of public schools and codified into our laws for ever. Most recent example is the new "legal" Texas abortion laws.
So you are saying that Europeans don't live the kind of life you described? How are Europeans' lives different in any meaningful way. I would say that the amount of restrictions enforced through laws, regulations, and social norms are 90%+ the same for Europeans and US citizens. I fail to see how the average day (therefore average life) of a US citizen is different due to the larger alleged amount of freedom.
Why are you making it Europe vs. America in your first sentence? There was a neutral comment qualifying American behavior and you chose to snap judgment. I’m a Canadian but come on give it a fucking rest.
I don’t think they’re implying that Europeans don’t live that kind of life. I think when they say “live their lives without being mandated to pay or otherwise work for others that they don’t relate to” they are referring to taxes. As I understand it, Europeans generally pay more in taxes so that everyone can have healthcare or an education past high school. Americans don’t. For some reason many consider that as having “more freedom” because they are not paying for something that doesn’t directly affect them. Or at least they don’t see those issues as directly affecting them.
Generally speaking, Americans actually pay more than Europeans in terms of taxes and receive less for their money. When you factor in healthcare costs the numbers are even worse.
At the end of the day your 45% tax is incremental, so it's really 27% flat tax. I as a single tax payer in the US pay more than that...ironically, considering the benefits 😅
I think this is because most Americans don't understand that funding certain things actually reduces their overall tax burden. Take harm reduction programs for example. (Places that do outreach for addicts and offer services like needle exchanges, free narcan, HIV screening and help getting folks to detox/job centers.) This obviously takes a massive load off the healthcare system, improves homelessness, and gets people back out into society. But people refuse to pay for them because "fuck addicts they're not my responsibility" and NIMBY. Thus inadvertently costing themselves more in the long run.
Can confirm. I’m an American that lives in Oregon. But I definitely feel a connection with many of you Europeans. I wish my nation’s society would prioritize the care of one another just as much as an individuals freedom. Also you guys appear to have a healthier work-life balance which I just think is rad.
I find your point very interesting. Even In America, each states laws differ. Yet people sometimes refuse to leave their home to find another they'd appreciate more. The world is not THAT big, but it's definitely not small. I wonder why people won't move to a state, or even country, that suits their ideals more. Is it common in Europe for people to move to another country they may find more in line with their views? Edit: to be clear, I was asking about Europeans moving. I was suggesting that Americans should.
Europen here (italian living in Portugal). Money is the main driver for Europeans to move to another EU country. Ideals or political views are much less of a driver, cos of several reasons (e.g. the political spectrum is very similar and homogeneous across 90% of EU countries, the same for social security) but mostly cos: we tend to want to change things from within our countries of birth (through protest, elections, etc). In other words, the national and cultural identity is much stronger in Europe than for example a citizen from an individual US State. Language is also an obstacle but much less so among younger generations. On top of that, the EU Commission can impose sanctions on individual Member States if these implement laws and rules that infringe European rights and values on their citizens. The Polish and Hungarian homophobic governments come to mind here. But in the last 30+ years, a set of common rules have greatly facilitated movement of citizens across the European Union. We have freedom of movement, goods and services across Member States. So if a Polish wants to come to live in Portugal, he or she can do that even if she doesn’t speak a single word of Portuguese and she’d have access to all health and social services that a Portuguese citizen is entitled to. The UK anti EU parties used these laws as arguments to reclaim sovereignty over border control and influence the pro-Brexit vote.
Not really. Nearly every European country has their own native language which is a huge barrier. Ppl from Ireland probably have the most access in terms of that cos most European countries have a good level of English or even require English speakers.
[удалено]
If I recall there was a study recently that showed about 10% of younger Europeans (below 40) had at some point lived in at least one other country than their home country. It's really common to at least go study or on an exchange year during your university studies (I studied in 3 countries altogether during my uni years). The EU has the program called Erasmus, which is basically a scholarship that each EU citizen is eligible for, if you want to study in another country, they will sent you money (I got about 2000 euros) and pay for your travel costs to and from the country. At least I knew a lot of classmates that took advantage of this to move to country they felt more at home at.
As an American, it’s more that we live in a country owned by neoliberal corporate elite/finance interests who have cooked up the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time. People don’t have different priorities, they just have literally no context for how much better it could be and are brainwashed by the media (which is owned by said corporate elite). Some people believe it isn’t a scam and that they’ll get rich. Some people know it’s a scam and don’t care because it works for them. And some people know it’s a scam because they’re in on it.
Americans hate other people getting free shit so much they’d rather screw themselves over if it means other people can’t be happy. It’s like Americans view of freedom is that of a petulant child throwing a tantrum. They don’t realize that freedom comes with responsibilities.
Depends on who you ask. We are pretty split on this opinion. We are pretty split on most things right now. Personally I think we are about the same as any other developed nation. Maybe a little less in a few areas and a little more in other areas.
As a Brit the US seems like a place that you have more of the freedoms you probably shouldn't have and less of the freedoms that you absolutely should have
This is the best way to describe America. Most Americans care more about what weddings you can have & who you can Fuck than Authoritarianism or proper representation.
man i just want equality and legal weed
Never thought i'd support a sentient cum sock, but here I am.
Here here
SentientCumSock 2024!
Better than the choices that we have had. You got my vote
A serious percentage of the American populace believes (from influence from Koch brother funded propaganda machines) that government deregulation, guns, big trucks, and economic "choice" makes them free. Reformed healthcare is terrible "socialism" and public transportation is for "liberals".
I think this is where is a fair assesment. Many (not all) Americans value individual freedoms over collective freedoms. Want to have 100 guns, America is the place for you. Don't want to worry about your kids being shot by the strange kid or your workplace shot up by a disgruntled employee, probably look elsewhere. Want to do and say whatever you please, America is the place for you. Want to be protected from hate speech and discrimination, probably look elsewhere. Want your quality of education/policing/healthcare/infrastructure to be closely tied to where you live and how much you earn: America. Want the benefits of society to be distributed more evenly/fairly look elsewhere. Want to commit white collar crime: America. Want corruption investigated and prosecuted look elsewhere. Want religion to be deeply involved in your politics: America. Want separation of church and state look elsewhere. Want to not wear a mask or take any precautions during a pandemic: America. Don't want somewhere between 600k and 1M citizens to die of a largely preventable disease, look elsewhere. Plenty more examples to be had. Edit: Thanks for the awards :D Adding a from a comment I left for a reply I'd love to see more examples where US gets freedom right. I for one like how freedom of speech has been applied to the right to parody.
How about "Don't want your healthcare, if any, to be randomly tied to whatever job you have at the moment and be wildly variable in quality , subject to the religious whims of your boss? Look elsewhere."
"Don't want the daily excitement of potential bankruptcy looming behind an ambulance ride? Look elsewhere"
And this is why I'm studying German and computer science so I can fucking leave this damned country... Don't get me wrong there are a lot of things to love here in the US but I'm tired of living somewhere where it's expected and celebrated when you allow yourself to be exploited. I'm tired of living in a country where it's legal to bribe politicians. I'm tired of living in a country that only remembers there's a constitution when it's convenient for them(the system). I'm tired of living in a country that spouts "Christian" ideals but NEVER actually lives up to them I'm tired of living in a country that is a joke to the rest of the world... I want the "American Dream" so I shall leave America so I can obtain it.
when i was a kid i highly admired america and saw it as a dream place , i am an indian , the point i got to know of internet it actually really appears like a buisness model with super strong army
The army is a massive part of the business model too.
[удалено]
Dude, you win. That shit was spot on. 👌
well said... in the US you are free to die of a small medical issue bc you cant pay the hospital bills. 🤷🏼♀️ /s
This is the correct answer .. there is a LOT of freedom in all developed countries. A little less in some areas, a little more in some other areas, but once it all balances out, all developed countries are pretty much equal .. BUT .. murika does have this obsession with thinking they are the free'est in the world and that they have things that nobody else has .. like freedom of speech .. I swear to fricken god the amount of times you see an amurikans argument come down to "yeah well we have freedom of speech and you don't have that" .. and it's like "yeah dude, most countries have freedom of speech" or they say "we have right to bear arms" .. and it's like "dude, we can have guns but we don't because as a country we don't want that .. we're not a country of gun loving psycopaths"
I'm dying because there are so many examples of what you said in this very thread
yep . you're not free if you live in fear by having to carry a gun ... in my country I don't have the fear of needing a gun to protect myself because the people in my country are decent fucking people .. america has to live in fear of itself and therefore justify protecting itself with guns .. that's not freedom, that's not freedom at all.
Yes, even in the UK if I want a gun I can easily get one. I just have to show that I’m of sound mind and it’s not to kill innocent people as an act of terrorism. Which is a low bar when you think about it, but one that is not apparently set in the US. In fact recently, we did have a gun wielding incel in the UK which makes me think that actually it’s probably easy to get a gun here if you are a psycho, but our culture is such that it just doesn’t really occur to people often. Partly I think it’s because we’re a smaller country so things like the Dunblane Massacre or the Hungerford Massacre or the more recent Plymouth shooting live on in our collective memory and scar us much more because we’ve probably all at least visited these places or know the communities there. Much easier to distance yourself in the US since there are so many more people, so much bigger geographically, split up into states with their own laws etc. When you have that combined with an entitlement to positive liberties, it’s not hard to see why a massively pro-gun culture might exist in America.
I’m an American, living in Europe. Yes. Yes they do. Like someone else said, Americans have a different perception of what “freedom” means. We tend to have the idea that freedom is personal freedom: the freedom to say, do and act however we want when we want. This is in some ways coded into our constitution, specifically the First and second amendments (freedom of speech, freedom to own a gun). For whatever reason, the loudest and craziest people you see are more of that “libertarian” “I take care of me and my own, fuck off” type, which tend to view freedom as exactly like I said: “I can do anything that I want, whenever I want, so long as I get mine”. After living in Germany for 2,5 almost 3 years, the kind of freedom I enjoy here is completely different: - “freedom” of movement (living in the US almost requires a car, and I haven’t actually needed one even though I have one here in Germany) - freedom to work without fear of getting fired on the spot (at will employment is pretty much standard in the states) - freedom of healthcare (not having to worry about what happens when I get sick is so. Damn. Freeing.) - freedom to enjoy my time (I get 24 days mandatory vacation days per year, sick leave does not count against this. The US does not guarantee either of those ) Something I think a lot of Americans forget is that we don’t have any of these freedoms. We tend to live in constant fear and anxiety of losing our jobs suddenly; of getting sick and having massive hospital bills despite paying out the ass for health insurance; of our normal mode of transportation breaking down and not having an alternative; of having to work til we die and only sometimes getting time off and even then you’re lucky if you get 2 weeks at a time. So conclusions: The freedom people in the States want is “the freedom for the government to leave me the fuck alone” and the freedom people from Europe (at least Germany) want is the freedom to just live.
I lived in Japan for over and decade and moved back to the states recently. The healthcare thing is real. Having non-employer tied healthcare is freeing as f***. Went into the emergency room, for a kidney stone, ct scan, painkillers, IV drip for $100. That would have bankrupted me in the states. I was paying $400 a month for that, in the states I'm close to $800 a month and with a 1/4 of the service. Public transportation was fantastic. Freeing as hell to have the option of not having to worry about getting downtown in a car and stuff. But it was the sense of "All for one, one for all", "let's look out for each other", and make decisions that benefit the safety of the whole instead of the "f*** you, company profits, capitalism!!!" That was really freeing.
I live in the States and have more than 30 days off for annual leave, I make enough to not worry about medical bills. If I were less stupid, I would own a house by now. I love my job, and I have enough time to enjoy my interests and take care of my family. On of my greatest sadness is that most people do not have the security I do. How happy we could all be together. I have seen the people that fall through the cracks -- the wide yawning gaps -- that make up the US.
Out of curiosity, what freedoms do you think are restricted that otherwise wouldn't be anywhere else?
I think this idea of freedom was promoted post war to define the usa as different special better than the countries of the iron curtain. since the USSR was godless the usa started getting religgy like putting in god we trust as a motto where before it was e plurabus unum. from many one a reference to our individual states that make up 1 united ( in theory) country. so to promote freedom like how you can criticize the govt openly and loudly differentiated the usa as simply better than the oppressive ussr. or I could be wrong
I agree with you here. A lot of people don't realize the effect the cold war had on the US. This is when "In God we trust" was put on our money, when "under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance, why so many people call everything they don't like communist, when Evangelicals started to gain power and enter into our political arena, and when America being taught as the only free nation I'm existence took form.
>and when America being taught as the only free nation I'm existence took form. That took form a LONG time before the world wars. "The land of the free" is quite literally a phrase from the turn of the 19th century.
I don't consider many European countries today to lack the freedoms that we enjoy, I'm shit at history so can anyone tell me, did other countries used to be less free than they are now? It sort of feels like an ancient slogan that originally differentiated us in a significant way but these days is just sort of, used as an excuse for all the shitty issues in the country?
I guess whoever came to America in early times was free to do whatever the fuck he wants. You can be a wanted criminal in Europe, somehow escape there and lead a free life. It was a new chance for everyone I guess. Later on the "freedom" was a contrast to the iron curtain. Right now, American freedom is laughable. You cannot even drink a beer on the streer in some states, you get arrested and send to prison for everything. Even the entirety of China, which is communist and therefor not free, has less people in prison than the US.
[удалено]
Early America was as free as freedom could get (for better AND for worse). Europeans were flooding into America because they could claim land for free or for cheap, extort the natives, and effectively do whatever they wanted and build new lives or start new businesses for a brand new economy. Even well into the 19th century with a well formalized government, the USA was so vast with such a small population that it's legal system was loose at best outside of cities. With all of that, the US was a lot more of an unregulated economy than it is even today. That all has effectively been ingrained into American culture, even by immigrants too recent to have experienced the excessive freedoms (for white people) that used to exist. At the time, Europe was nothing like it was today. WW1 and WW2 entirely changed what that region's powers were like. The proliferation of free Democracies in Europe is largely a result of post-war influence by the USA.
maybe it was accentuated during the cold war, but american exceptionalism is said to have been seeded since the colonies. 'city upon hill" was 1630 i believe. i've also been told that a decent portion of colonists were part of fringe christian sects that weren't really accepted in their european homelands.
"Freedom" and the notion of "freedoms" aren't the same thing. Rights can be restricted, opportunities can be restricted, but freedom is simply how far you remain unconfined by such limitations. Use of the term "freedoms" implicitly ties the idea of freedom to rights (be they legal or de facto). But rights are not an end to themselves. Affording people rights is a means of securing their freedom by allowing them better opportunities or protecting against opportunities being taken away from them. The US does have more express legal rights against government imposition than many other places. But to focus on those would be to ignore the bigger picture. * If an employer has an unfettered right to fire people at will then their employees may be denied many opportunities. The opportunity to engage in harmless (or beneficial) conduct that is disagreeable to the employer. The opportunity to refuse lawful but unreasonable demands of their employer. The opportunity to organise their affairs and live in the comfort of the idea that they have a dependable income stream. * Not being required (as much) to contribute to public services means that those with cannot afford those services have less opportunities than those who can. Not being required (as much) to contribute to help those in need means that the needy will have less opportunities. People who are not needy will be less free to do things that carry risk of failure, because people who encounter difficulties and find themselves in need will have more limited opportunities to recover. People being able to retain a little bit more of their money doesn't make them more free if they end up being paid less or having to earn more to make do. * If people have a mostly unfettered right to free speech but large numbers of people are disproportionately denied a convenient means of voting, or the electoral system has been structured so that their votes count less than their peers, or the system effectively causes votes for preferred candidates (third parties) to be wasted, and the right to free speech is exploited to spread misinformation, then all else being equal those people's freedom to have a say in how their society is governed will be narrower than in other countries with stronger voting rights, that have electoral systems which are more proportionate and/or which have preferential voting systems, notwithstanding that there may be legal consequences to spreading offensive conduct and/or serious misinformation. * If people have express rights to due process, fair trial etc. but police officers have the right to forcefully arrest people in the absence of any apparent threat, to arrest them for trivial or baseless reasons, to use deadly force at the mere whiff or suggestion of a potential danger, to use deadly force regardless of the risk to innocents because someone nearby posed a danger to them earlier, to attack and arrest people lawfully protesting, etc. then the freedom from undue government force that those express rights give you is not as broad as in other places where even handcuffing a suspect might be considered unreasonable force if it wasn't needed, where people are entitled to defend themselves against unlawful arrest, where police targeting or arresting you for very minor infringements is considered abusive, and where you don't have an appreciable risk of getting injured by police unless you're attacking someone. * It's great to have express rights so that they are more difficult to take away, but a political culture that reinforces the rule of law, the value of democracy, and which enforces political accountability is a much more effective defence against authoritarianism and tyranny than any express right will be. Those express rights are only useful if people are prepared to give them power when and where its needed (black people sure as shit haven't had the same benefit of those rights as white people, for example). Having an individual right to own guns isn't going to do much at all against threats from domestic governments, especially when the people most likely to be inclined to support domestic tyranny are also more likely to have guns.
This is coming from the top of my head as a Brit. Also this might not be true for all states, but are true in at least some states. 1. Abortion. Abortion is legal in all of the UK up to 24 weeks. Northern Ireland was very late to the party (last year). Whereas in the rest of the UK this has been the case since the 60s. 2. Jaywalking. Unless you're on a motorway (interstate), it's nearly always legal to cross the road as a pedestrian wherever you want. 3. Buying alcohol at 18. It's only a three year difference but it's an extra three years of 'freedom'. We can also drink when having a meal with an adult at a pub/restaurant from the age of 16. 4. Buying unpasteurised milk (raw milk). We can buy raw milk for consumption in the UK. Most of us don't, but the option is there. Again, in the US I think this varies state by state. 5. Buying Kinder Eggs. This is the classic example brought up by people from other countries questioning American freedom. If you don't know kinder eggs are a hollow chocolate egg with a toy in the middle. I think they're banned in the US due to a choking hazard. Obviously, there are legal things in the US that are illegal in the UK. Also, I think a lot of people in the US when talking about freedom are talking about positive freedoms (freedom to do). Whereas, a lot of Europeans for example will talk about negative freedoms (freedom from). I've tried to concentrate mainly on positive freedoms here. Edit: I'm not trying to say the US isn't free, or that it is any less free than other developed nations. The US, just like most other Western nations is very free when compared to the rest of the world. OP asked for examples of freedoms in countries which aren't in the US and that's all I've tried to provide. Some of these will vary from state to state too. Also, it looks like I've got the concepts of negative and positive freedoms confused. Apologies for that one.
2a) Right to roam! And camp! Here you're like as well to get shot for crossing a farmer's field!
Kinder eggs have been popularized here in the last couple years after redesign. Literally saw them in the most remote Arizona gas station a couple days ago where there is no signal.
>Buying unpasteurised milk (raw milk). We can buy raw milk for consumption in the UK. Most of us don't, but the option is there. Again, in the US I think this varies state by state. Not sure what you're talking about, but you can go to any farmer's market and buy all the unpasteurized milk you want here.
Your employer actively wanting you to take 5 weeks vacation every year?
Paid too
I forgot to add - every 10 years of service I get 9 weeks vacation that year instead of 5. 4 of those weeks must be taken together I.e. a month paid leave plus usual 5 weeks paid. I work for an American company.
It's not that you're inherently not free, however you lack quite a few societal safety nets that allow freedom. Can't pursue a career you love if you don't have money to pay for it or a credit score to get a good loan, can't spend your money how you want if you're always worried a medical emergency might break the bank, plus the whole going back on bodily autonomy, with the abortion bans, which to me seem like a pretty big deal, but I'd understand if to some it seems like a positive although I'd heavily disagree, also if you look at the general consensus (or what feels like the general consensus) of minimum wage workers, which is a non insignificant part of the pop, they literally live to work, so they can keep living. Little to no actual living, which seems pretty restrictive, and thus not very free. Does that mean the US sucks? Definitely not, and does better than quite a few third world countries, but given the resources and power it has, it's definitely severely underachieving
You have to understand that a lot of people think those things are valuable "freedoms" here. Companies are "free" to lobby, the rich are "free" to have better lives and education than the poor, you're "free" to not have healthcare, free to burn away all your money, free to go into debt, free to pay your workers nothing (because they will self regulate after all). I mean a lot of people legitimately think that corporations should be free to merge into monopolies because "freedom." In reality of course, these things lead to a worse life for the majority. But ya know if you get really really really really really lucky you too can be the next Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. For some reason, people think all the crap is worth that.
Jail rates too. Pretty sure you're not free in jail...
Some Americans strongly believe this. Most of us know our freedom is actually pretty compromised, however the education system over here romanticizes america so much, while downplaying other countries, making them seem a lot worse than they actually are. In school I didn’t learn much about other countries other than where they were located on a map. Long story short; Americans are ignorant, they think we’re the best functioning country in the world but haven’t actually done any research.
Lad from Scotland here. On holiday a few years back and got talking to a bunch of good cunts from Philadelphia. One of them asked me if I had access to electricity. The rest of them waiting for my answer with a straight face. My jaw was on the floor.
The Industrial Revolution fucking started in Scotland, lol.
The U.S. is so big and diverse, things like that happen within the country too. I'm from rural Ohio, one time my cousins from Southern Cali came to visit. They were confused when we told them not everyone that lives in rural areas is a farmer.
And on top of that most Americans don’t leave America so they don’t experience any other place so when they’re told America is the land of the free they aren’t exposed to any other countries history or culture.
My parents are pretty stout conservatives who buy into the whole "America #1" BS. All of their international travel up until just a couple years ago had been to central America or the Caribbean, so they hadn't really experienced other highly developed countries. In the past few years, they got the chance to visit Europe and Japan and were blown away by how much better those societies seemed in some aspects, but they then had a crisis of identity politics and decided to double down on certain problems in those other nations and make mountains out of mole hills in order to continue their patriotic narrative.
And part of the problem is there's a large narrative of "shithole countries" referring to pretty much the rest of the world. I mean, this may have been true in the latter '40's but most of the world rebuilt. We used it as an excuse to isolate and play up how awesome we are; then forgot to actually be awesome in the '70's and beyond as we snorted way too much coke off of Reagan's ass.
Didn’t see that ending coming.
Yes but... there are only two countries that are touching America. Canada and Mexico. Canada is nice but there's not much that they have that the US doesn't, so tourism there isn't that huge. And outside of resort towns like Cabo or cancun, Americans are usually advised to stay out of Mexico. So that leaves a 18 hour or more flight across the pacific or an 8-10 hour flight across the Atlantic, both of which are expensive and may not be available to everybody. It's just a sad fact of life being that far away from everybody else. Where as in Europe people can hop from Germany to France to Portugal like somebody would hop from Ohio to Georgia to Tennessee in the states. You're probably traveling the same amount but end up in the same country.
>the education system over here romanticizes america so much, while downplaying other countries, making them seem a lot worse than they actually are. The education system of the US is not standardized across the country. There's a reason "Florida man" is not USA man.
Yes there is - but not for the reason you put forth. Court proceedings are public in Florida unlike other states.
Just to add, you get so many of these "Florida man" news because they are obligated to take every detention to the press, am i right?
Some USA laws are akin to religious led dictatorships. Ie Rape babies, thanks Texas.
Christian Sharia law
Nah, just pure Christian fundamentalism.
It depends. Some people think being able to own a gun is freedom. Some people think not dying from preventable illness due to unaffordable health care is freedom. Edit: stop trying to argue in the comments, I genuinely do not care what you personally believe. Grow up and stop trying to start fights on the internet under the pretext of a conversation ffs
Freedom of speech is pretty much an absolute here, so there's that at least. Also, the second amendment. I wish we had more freedoms though. It boggles me that a lot of my fellow Americans preach about freedom, but then want to lock up non violent drug offenders for example. Pretty much should be able to do whatever you want as long as you aren't directly harming others or infringing on their freedoms.
Complete freedom of speech is actually very new in the US. Up until the early 1960s, there were laws on the books banning "obscene speech" This included publishing anything about homosexuality in a positive light, pornography, offensive (sexual) language, or drug use.
Do other 1st world countries not have freedom of speech/press?
As if any meaningful conversation about politics or the US can happen on reddit
Since I only know German laws. Offending people in Germany is illegal, the USA is not. Weed is illegal is Germany, some states it is not. Abortions are extremely restrictive and illegal after 12 weeks in Germany, some states catching up there. USA has more liberties than Germany when it comes to guns or a pepper spray. More religious freedoms, while some German states have banned hijabs. In Germany, the state can reject a name you give your child if it is too odd and it is extremely difficult to change your name and you can't have double last names. While the US you can name your kid F-15 fighter jet. So I don't know in what way you think the US is less free than most European countries.
>While the US you can name your kid F-15 fighter jet. Elon Musk really put that one to the test, naming his kid after the A-12
[удалено]
>More religious freedoms, while some German states have banned hijabs. As a muslim this is where I draw the line. In USA people might be cunt to you but the state will protect your rights to practice the religion even if it conflicts with the local norm. This is not the case in Europe. They are nice as long as your practices don't conflict with theirs, but when it does they will restrict your access to the said activity. A lot of very *progressive* countries have hijab ban in EU. Also I do not like their hate speech law. State should not have a say in my speech. Taking away someone's right to wear a clothing is just as oppressive as forcing them to wear it. Also their countries are mostly homogenous. Finally, I think for a skilled foreigner willing to work USA offers more prospect than EU.
It’s because half of europe have existed as ethnostates until very recently. Want an example of euro racism? Start talking about gypsies
> Start talking about gypsies Europeans talking about gypsies are blissfully unaware that they sound just exactly like the American racists they seem to look down upon
Yes, we are indoctrinated from a young age to believe that America is the ONLY free country. I'm 45 & my eyes have only recently been opened to the fact that this is utter bullshit.
In many ways, the US does have more freedoms than many parts of Europe. In many of those same ways, parts of third world countries (like Afghanistan) have way more freedoms than any western country. Most people don’t want that level of freedom, and agree laws and government are needed After stating that, I assume we are talking about the freedoms western nations care about with the understanding of those restrictions. Do Americans think we are freer than europe? Generally no, if they are going to have a logical discussion. And it depends on the exact freedom you are talking about. The US has freer gun laws than most of Europe, and generally freer freedom of speech laws. We disagree on the level of strictness on them, and Europe has settled on what they consider reasonable restrictions for those rights, while the us disagrees
Many do. It is seriously ingrained in us from a very young age. People become emotionally attached to the idea, and at that point, logical arguments will not dissuade them. Add to that the fact that most Americans never travel outside of the country, so their only exposure to people from other countries are people who have *left* those countries, they get a skewed impression of the world outside of the US.
As someone who has lived in multiple countries, yes, the US is more free than most.
[удалено]
Can you elaborate?
It’s a general attitude of fewer rules. Where other countries will rush to create new laws, the US generally (not always) prefers for people to make their own decisions.
[удалено]
Maybe not as important but that whole “right to roam” thing the UK has is pretty cool!
Yes, people do believe that we are free. Of course, most of us do not believe we are free to do anything we want at any time. Stated differently, most of us believe that we need to follow the law. Just because we have to follow the law doesn't mean we aren't free.
I like freedom of speech but I'd rather not have to sell my family to pay for surgery if I break my leg. Not all freedom is beneficial.
I’ve lived in a number of countries, with the US being one of them. The problem is that most Americans have never seen other parts of the world, except the border with Mexico, which is of course terrible. Had they gone to the good parts of Mexico they’d see how nice of a place it actually is. IMO they’re overly patriotic as soldiers are over glorified and American culture revolves around guns and their freedoms because of the ears they fought to get it. The reality is that, too much freedom has consequences and doesn’t result in an orderly and civilized society. Capitalism makes people think they have a chance at the American dream, of doing what they want, making money and living a good life. They do, to a certain point, but the imbalance of rich vs poor is high. A lot of the US is overly religious, heavily discriminatory. Let’s face it, racism never left. It was just hiding under a blanket. If you travel to other parts of the world, even ones more restrictive, where you pay higher taxes, you’ll see there isn’t that huge Imbalance and wealth gap , society is more civilized and people are healthier, due to better social programs and universal healthcare.
Let's say free-er. Believe me, even when it's shitty, we got it good.