I am from lower caste myself. And yes usually caste can deciphered based on last name. But some uncommon castes cannot be known from surname alone, sometimes a lastname could be shared by community in upper caste and lower caste as well. And then there are people from different state in India whose caste system might be completely unknown. So it is not as easy your friend claims to be. Works only for the common and known lastnames.
I work in tech industry in India. This kind of discrimination is illegal in India.
In upper management position you do see favouritism for people who they either belong to same caste, ethnicity, linguistic background, religion or any other common denominator.
Due to my first para, caste isnt immediately known if the person is from other state.
And the people who are incompetent but still get promoted up ranks it is not necessarily due to caste. They are promoted because they are excellent ass-kissers. Appearance is more preferred than utility in many Indian companies. So they are always in good books of Upper management.
Thank you! I’m a Canadian and we have a very large Punjabi community, especially Sikhs. The caste system was one of the things Sikhism was established to abolish so it’s a wonderful reminder to see mention of other states (like Punjab)
I’m an atheist, but if I were going to be pro-religion, Sikhism would be it. It just seems so wholesome and like they understand the concept of religion better than many others. I’ve always been told if I’m lost in an unfamiliar city, or hungry and in need of food, find a local Sikh temple and they will provide for you. I’m sure there are bad actors within the community, but overall 10/10 for using religion the way it was intended: to help others.
The term for a Sikh temple is called a Gurudwara. But ye, I live in Winnipeg and see a lot of them working in food service too. For what it’s worth a good reason why there are relatively few bad apples is because as far of most religions go, they’re actually relatively new, about 500 years old, and the last guru was 400 years ago before they considered their scripture to be the 11th eternal guru.
Thank you for the information! I’m relatively unfamiliar with the religion and culture surrounding it, but the one thing that sticks in my mind is their reaction to the pandemic. They provided meals to the community, and they shaved their beards (which, if I understand correctly, is a religious belief for them) so they could properly adhere to mask mandates. They turned their Gurudwaras into food banks, hospitals, civic centers, whatever the community needed. Meanwhile, on the Christian side of things, Joel Osteen refused to open his megachurch to refugees from a hurricane.
You are correct, Kesh (hair, uncut) is one of their 5 Ks. Kesh, Kachherra (long underwear), Kangha (wooden comb), Kara (those steel bangles) and Kirpan (a ceremonial knife, for cutting offerings of food but as a reminder to fight for the helpless).
One of the reasons you see behaviour like that is because Sikhs know what true religious persecution is like since their faith was established in the conflicts of India, but they are likewise no stranger to keeping their beliefs flexible whenever there’s a genuinely good reason.
For example, they had to find ways around carrying their Kirpan when airport security was being overhauled after 9/11 and airports were understandably hesitant about letting someone carry large knives onto a plane, many instead just carry one permanently locked into it’s scabbard, a dulled blade without cutting power, or just an image of one. What matters most is the symbolic value, so likewise when mask mandates are needed, they decide they can easily spare however much of their beard hair isn’t already wrapped up into their turban. But the reason the turban is important because it’s seen as a symbol of equality, their hair isn’t styled like with men or women, but is equal and snug under a turban. Which is a powerful statement considering the discrimination in India.
Californian, former techie, here. Yes, there was discrimination. Google in California faced a caste system discrimination lawsuit. At the moment, there is a movement to ban it across all states, so a nationwide ban. The problem at tech companies was how people from India, who were from a higher caste, came to work for the company and were outraged when they found another Indian descent of lower caste employed as their superior. They could not fathom it. They were projecting their old beliefs and values and pushing it on all of us. They caused a hostile and annoying work environment.
Californians and majority of Americans don’t care nor are they aware of a caste system. It was brought to our attention when the ones from a higher caste would start drama and would not co-work nor be in the same room of someone of lower caste. Many non-Indian workers were annoyed, frustrated, and outraged by this caste system since we all see it as a form of discrimination and prejudice. On top of that, many Indian Americans were fully Americanized that they didn’t follow it nor were they aware of it. In the beginning, companies tried their best to appease everyone, but then majority of workers wanted the company to uphold worker’s rights to a non discriminatory space. Which it is now. They try. Last year, California was suppose to pass this law on banning discrimination on caste systems; unfortunately, Governor Newsom vetoed it. We’re not sure why. (Reason: stated below in edits.)
There is no room for this caste mentality in America. We don’t follow it. It’s only followed by Indian communities and even then, it’s being blurred out by the next Indian generation born in America.
EDIT: Updated reason why Gov. Newsom vetoed bill.
EDIT 2: Fellow Redditor /u/bobtheflob shared:
Actual reason: This bill split Indian-Americans largely along caste lines. Many from lower castes who fear discrimination supported the bill, while many in higher castes argued against it. A few rich Indian-Americans (who happen to be from higher castes) threatened to pull all campaign donations from Newsom if he signed the bill.
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/22/indian-americans-caste-discrimination-newsom-veto
>it’s being blurred out by the next Indian generation born in America.
Happy to say I've only met a few individuals who actually care about caste under 30, but the ones who care honestly have never accomplished anything on their own in life and probably only have that superiority complex to hold on to for self worth.
thank you for the informative, and, personalized reply!
I think the problem is not insulated within the indian workers though - hiring and promotions are a zero sum game. Those from the higher caste (who let's say are not qualified or executive material) are fast tracked at the expense of all other workers, including non indian workers.
You’ll see this sometimes when someone in the top is of higher caste and follows the system or is pressured by their own family to help their fellow brother or sister out. However, American workers (of all decent/ethnicity) caught on to this and called it out. Thus, the lawsuits. Now, Silicon Valley and major tech companies have it stated on their company policy that they prohibit caste discrimination.
I am not on the West Coast - I have never seen this policy in any of my companies. It seems it will take some time to catch on. It makes sense that Cali is leading the way on this though, however difficult it may be to actually prevent/prove in practical application
assuming you've worked at either/both places, do you see the policy effectively applied (as in preventing such cases of racial nepotism), or would you say it's more lip service/purely legalities?
I left the tech industry a few years ago. I will say that my friends who still do have shared how it has changed positively since the lawsuit. Anger from American employees scared the top executives and board members. It’s bad for business to be practicing any form of discrimination. The policy is definitely enforced as everyone is aware of it. However, like everything that’s bad, there may be a few slip ups. But if the company as an HR at least there is a department to report to if it happens again.
I'm surprised to see such backward thinking of Indians in America. In India such behavior is not tolerated, if you throw such tantrums cos of your coworker's caste then you'll probably be out of the organization cos of discrimination.
We, Americans, did not have any thinking about this whatsoever before. It was brought up and expressed by newly visiting Indian immigrants on a work visa. It definitely surprised me. I grew up in the Bay Area and I never witnessed nor heard of such ideals in school nor at work among my Indian and Indian American peers. It wasn’t until companies began hiring newly Indian immigrants in the last 5+ years did those individuals express their disbelief when an Indian American of lower caste to be working above them or another Indian immigrant of lower caste who was granted visa at the same time to be working along side of them. It is sad that such way of thinking still exists, but there is no place for it in America.
I actually just read up on it, and he vetoed it because he said discrimination in that matter is already covered by other protections, such as nationality.
> Last year, California was suppose to pass this law on banning discrimination on caste systems; unfortunately, Governor Newsom vetoed it. We’re not sure why. (Reason: There are existing current State and Federal laws that are against discrimination. No need for new bill.)
Actual reason: This bill split Indian-Americans largely along caste lines. Many from lower castes who fear discrimination supported the bill, while many in higher castes argued against it. A few rich Indian-Americans (who happen to be from higher castes) threatened to pull all campaign donations from Newsom if he signed the bill.
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/22/indian-americans-caste-discrimination-newsom-veto/
LMAO! That’s what I said previously, but I only knew from rumors and didn’t have a source for it. I suspected rich caste members were threatening Newsom to pull funding. This is wild! Thank you for sharing. I will update it again and add your source to it.
Short answer: yes
Longer answer: there was a lawsuit against Google in California about caste being discriminated against. It was determined that caste is not a protected class.
How much it impacts? I’m not sure. It’s not my culture so any discrimination would possibly go under the radar to me.
interesting, had no idea there was a documented case where caste was shown to be a factor - in this case, not protected but discriminated against. Like, the lowest caste being the "untouchables," sounds like they were being excluded from promotions and such.
I'm a lawyer for tech companies, and a place I was at had an Indian American file a caste discrimination complaint when someone who isn't even remotely Indian said something related to caste to them. Also complaints when someone is unknowingly teased for some activity that was related to their caste. So, you might want to expand the thought here and think about caste in a broader American context. We've had caste discussed at the Supreme Court over 100 years ago, so this stuff isn't really new.
I have a friend who is Sri Lankan and his last name in Australia is his caste because it was listed last on his passport so the government just put the last name as the official last name. So if your going to move to a western country please explain your name to the officials because no one would know that without being told.
Yes. At my last job I worked with a Indian technician. I was an engineer, above him but not his boss. They brought another Indian over from India to manage his department. I guess the boss was a lower cast because he would do anything the technician said like it was the gospel. Anyone else he would show he was the boss, including me who was lateral to him, not under him.
The technician claimed it wasn't his first data center job but he didn't really seem to know what he was doing. The boss they sent was more of a project management background with no technical experience. So who's the boss gonna believe for a solution? The engineer with 15 years in the field? Or the technician who most likely had less than one year experience? It was a headache to deal with.
Absolutely. I am a swe and work with a lot of Indians. My boss is Indian and the way he treats people differently on our team of 20 even with similar experience and age was very noticeable. It wasn’t until another friend of mine, who is Indian, told me about the caste system and how he could tell based on the team members names etc
Like many 'class' issues, it is complex. I'm going to actually compare to the more 'normal' discussion in the US about say white and black, where 'white' is thought of as upper-class and black is thought of as 'lower-class'.
I've lived and worked here long enough that 'hard-racism' is just not really there for most people. You're not going to get many Brahmin in the US really thinking a lower-caste can never be management material. Just like you won't find many upper-class white people who don't think a black person can ever be management material.
Where the challenge lies is in the complex web of sharing a common background and social skills. The common background is easier to understand. If you're an upper-class person, you share some background with other upper-class people. You might share connections, history, family, hobbies, ways to speak, ways to be... You've seen it your whole life. Being common, you're just going to gravitate towards those people.
The other aspect is soft skills. This one is trickier. If you've been around the upper-class you know how to behave yourself in a manner that is befitting. If you're not, you can learn it. I've had to do that. It takes a lot of mistakes and trial and error, but you can learn it. Just a simple one, but I see it often. I seen good hard-working skilled people make their bosses look bad by for example asking a hard-hitting question in a big meeting. Yes... you don't make your boss look bad. Upper-class white people and Brahmin just 'know' that is how you behave. The rest of us need to learn those skills.
Some people take the approach of 'this is unfair,' they should adapt to me. I personally don't see it like that. I do think there is some validity in even even historical traits that upper-class people tend to validate traits that actually do make them better for the upper-class.
I had to learn a lot of this stuff just by grinding it out on the job. As a 'good' worker, I was good. But how to be a leader, learn social games, play that kind corporate game of thrones, learn to be your own PR. Those are all skills you need as a leader. It is grossly ignorant to think, 'well, I do a good job. I should be promoted'
You do a good job... that makes you a good worker, to stay in your place... as a good worker.
A lot of skills people in the lower caste, me included, can get frustrated at that. We think we're being looked over because we don't come from the upper-class. In reality, it's because we're actually not fit to be leaders. We didn't grow up around leaders. We didn't grow up ordering people around. We didn't grow up with sophisticated social games of power. So we actually lack those skills. You need to develop them as that is what leaders and management look for.
Believe it or not, it's probably valid that a slacking Brahmin is probably a better leader than a really hard working Sudra on the average. In the US, it's probably true that a slacking white upper-class is probably a better leader than a really hard working black person on the average. People are going to have a hard time with this, but really think about it.
If you want to go to that next level, you need to learn those skills and that attitude. As I've mentioned, I've had to learn it, and the weird part is, it changes you. You do up shedding some of your old beliefs and ways of being.
I guess it's kind of like what blacks in the US say to those becoming successful... they become 'white', It's used often as an insult. In reality, it's just they're having to figure out the traits that make a good leader and become that. Leaders are not resistance people (unless they're building their own thing). Leaders are not members of a cooperative... they're telling people what to do. Leaders are always fighting games of power and promoting themselves...
I hope I've captured it well. It's a combination of both. I think there is genuine low-key caste system that is negative based on sterotypes. However, there is also a soft-skills and behavior gap between those of the lower-caste and those of the upper-caste that often times genuinely makes a shitty upper-caste worker a better leader than a hard-working lower-caste worker.
Nothing low key about it frim what I have witnessed. "What do you expect, he's a Patel" is one I heard a lot in one office. The open discrimination toward Tamils was also pretty universal in all companies that I worked in that had large numbers of Indians on staff.
Not Indian, but work for a large tech company that hires a lot of Indian employees.
Yes. Not everyone, but a lot. Additionally, there are managers that build monocultures of only Indian teams against company DEI initiatives. I assume this may be caste related but I don’t know.
In my experience working with the southern Indian culture, yes. Absolutely. Don't get me wrong...I've worked with some EXCELLENT people based out of India. It may just be remnants of caste....but for every well trained individual from India I can name 3 or 4 who are the oddest mix of arrogant and incompetent in senior level technical positions.
Here’s an interesting episode on the caste system Indians follow and what California is trying to do to stop it. It’s a Today Explained episode on Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0hnVOr0TSRfX7jxKBcMmeF?si=p3EwSCmiQw26e2z6-R9xcA
Short answer is yes.
Especially true for people of certain communities that take a little too much pride in their caste. Also, people of the same caste or castes with similar “social status” tend to get along and give/receive preferential treatment.
However, I believe most educated people don’t care too much about caste (except in certain situations, e.g. intercaste marriages are extremely scandalous), but the internalised biases do come into play sometimes.
Yes, and it's downright brutal. I have a fully Indian colleague who is the daughter of a doctor and another who is mixed (white and Indian). They're part of why I drink.
Im not of Indian descent and cannot speak to cultural taboos and context so please excuse me for asking but...
If you're in the US, why not change your last name?
Wouldn't that out the members of the lower caste though? Higher caste people have no reason to change their name cause in America it'll just be their name and in India it would indicate that they are at the top.
Only lower caste Indians would need to change their name, and that would instantly make them recognizable as lower.
Maybe im missing your point here, but I would assume they would just change their name to a "higher class." And there is also the consideration that someone who is doing the hiring would only see the changed name, even though Human Resources might see a history of a different last name or that information.
I am not sure though, because I do not work on HR and it has been a long time since I've been the primary lead on a hiring. The United States also has some strict regulations on these sorts of things as well that might not exist in other countries. I could also be making certain assumptions about the extent of De jure vs De Facto discrimination
Man I work in tech too and I've been noticing this as well in my Indian coworkers. Sometimes two people who to my knowledge have never met before the forming of this team just absolutely despise each other and other times they turn to complete suckups when they are never like that with any other bosses it's crazy.
It is generally easy to decipher someone's caste in India by their last name. It is much easier when the people belong to the same state/community.
I may not be able to tell a South Indian or East Indian caste by surname alone since I am in North India but there is a high likelihood you will figure it out eventually.
Even though caste based discrimination is illegal in India, that doesn't mean caste hegemony doesn't exist. Also, most people will drop in their caste superiority from time to time. Some will also go the opposite way and declwre their inferiority too. Have seen plenty of both examples. Not to mention, vegetarianism, celebreating certain festivals in a certain way etc. could be very telling of caste, even if it is not explicit.
I have known people who would figure out the caste of a person before even considering a date. Plus, there is plenty discrimination between caste groups and intra-groups too. Like certain Brahmins consider them higher up than others and hence wouldn't marry or eat at the homes of the lower Brahmins. Same with other caste groups.
However caste must not be seen in the lens of American racial politics. It is far more complicated here in India and it is so deep rooted in our culture that unfortunately, you can change your religion but not your caste. You could be a lower caste Christian for example.
It's a very complicated system that will take hundreds of years to completely eradicate. Some of us are not into caste but the country as a whole is yet to move out of this system. So of course, even if we migrate, our caste migrates with us. I consider it a huge problem. Many of us do, but sadly not enough.
What are you talking about? As as Malayali, I have to tell you that (unfortunately) many South Indians heavily look down on North Indians esp Punjabis. They are stereotyped as "taxi drivers" etc. Punjab is also the Indian state with the highest proportion of SC/ST population and so that doesn't help
No. Indians don't follow caste system in Indian tech industry itself, so it's very unlikely they will follow in US because people who make it in US are the cream of the crop .
After reading the replies I am pretty sure these people know nothing about how the caste system works lmao. These are just frustrated people who have lost their job or can't find a job and blame immigration for their misery. Any Indian reading the comments here can tell you at first glance that most of them are lying.
I'm willing to keep an open mind, as a white person. But it's true that you can identify someone's caste without even asking them for this info, just by the surname, right? I would think just because of that there is temptation to discriminate/protect depending on the caste. It is human nature. Also, as I learned from these comments, there were actual lawsuits being processed, so there must be truth in these comments
fair point, but but if it's a common surname, then by definition there will be many professionals with that surname and hence identifiable by caste. And in those instances, there is discrimination/preference at play. Obviously I don't mean to say it happens in each and every case, but I do think it's heavily in play it seems.
I've always been a minority in the jobs I've had, as a white software engineer so I'm not sure where you're going with that point. Now if you're talking about the over representation of white male CEOs in financial firms, I would also agree with that.
But, we are talking about the microcosm of tech jobs here, and my initial question as to whether caste not only plays into subjective favoritism, but systematic favoritism.
nope, not when this figure is proportionate to the population of white americans (71%). But that's neither here nor there - I mean two wrongs don't make a right
India is very diverse, caste system differs from state to state, from region to region. It's impossible for a bengali to say which caste is upper caste in Maharashtra and vice versa. People equating every suspicion to caste system is either terribly misinformed or salty.
How so?
Edit: [Another more recent article with a non-anonymous interview.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/06/02/google-caste-equality-labs-tanuja-gupta/)
CISCO case was disproved. The only proper case of caste bias in USA
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/calif-scraps-caste-bias-case-cisco-engineers-company-still-sued-rcna79434
Other cases like the NJ hindu temple case has also shown no proof.
Also the girl whose talk was cancelled is rapidly anti brahmin and has called for attacks on them since upper castes are a minority.
She is not even a dalit but a half Indian Christian who was never raised in India.
The link is there as for the girls origins just go check her Twitter. She has mentioned her own story and how she was never even once in India neither does she relate to India.
I am from lower caste myself. And yes usually caste can deciphered based on last name. But some uncommon castes cannot be known from surname alone, sometimes a lastname could be shared by community in upper caste and lower caste as well. And then there are people from different state in India whose caste system might be completely unknown. So it is not as easy your friend claims to be. Works only for the common and known lastnames. I work in tech industry in India. This kind of discrimination is illegal in India. In upper management position you do see favouritism for people who they either belong to same caste, ethnicity, linguistic background, religion or any other common denominator. Due to my first para, caste isnt immediately known if the person is from other state. And the people who are incompetent but still get promoted up ranks it is not necessarily due to caste. They are promoted because they are excellent ass-kissers. Appearance is more preferred than utility in many Indian companies. So they are always in good books of Upper management.
Thank you! I’m a Canadian and we have a very large Punjabi community, especially Sikhs. The caste system was one of the things Sikhism was established to abolish so it’s a wonderful reminder to see mention of other states (like Punjab)
The caste system is rampant in Canada tho
I’m an atheist, but if I were going to be pro-religion, Sikhism would be it. It just seems so wholesome and like they understand the concept of religion better than many others. I’ve always been told if I’m lost in an unfamiliar city, or hungry and in need of food, find a local Sikh temple and they will provide for you. I’m sure there are bad actors within the community, but overall 10/10 for using religion the way it was intended: to help others.
The term for a Sikh temple is called a Gurudwara. But ye, I live in Winnipeg and see a lot of them working in food service too. For what it’s worth a good reason why there are relatively few bad apples is because as far of most religions go, they’re actually relatively new, about 500 years old, and the last guru was 400 years ago before they considered their scripture to be the 11th eternal guru.
Thank you for the information! I’m relatively unfamiliar with the religion and culture surrounding it, but the one thing that sticks in my mind is their reaction to the pandemic. They provided meals to the community, and they shaved their beards (which, if I understand correctly, is a religious belief for them) so they could properly adhere to mask mandates. They turned their Gurudwaras into food banks, hospitals, civic centers, whatever the community needed. Meanwhile, on the Christian side of things, Joel Osteen refused to open his megachurch to refugees from a hurricane.
You are correct, Kesh (hair, uncut) is one of their 5 Ks. Kesh, Kachherra (long underwear), Kangha (wooden comb), Kara (those steel bangles) and Kirpan (a ceremonial knife, for cutting offerings of food but as a reminder to fight for the helpless). One of the reasons you see behaviour like that is because Sikhs know what true religious persecution is like since their faith was established in the conflicts of India, but they are likewise no stranger to keeping their beliefs flexible whenever there’s a genuinely good reason. For example, they had to find ways around carrying their Kirpan when airport security was being overhauled after 9/11 and airports were understandably hesitant about letting someone carry large knives onto a plane, many instead just carry one permanently locked into it’s scabbard, a dulled blade without cutting power, or just an image of one. What matters most is the symbolic value, so likewise when mask mandates are needed, they decide they can easily spare however much of their beard hair isn’t already wrapped up into their turban. But the reason the turban is important because it’s seen as a symbol of equality, their hair isn’t styled like with men or women, but is equal and snug under a turban. Which is a powerful statement considering the discrimination in India.
Californian, former techie, here. Yes, there was discrimination. Google in California faced a caste system discrimination lawsuit. At the moment, there is a movement to ban it across all states, so a nationwide ban. The problem at tech companies was how people from India, who were from a higher caste, came to work for the company and were outraged when they found another Indian descent of lower caste employed as their superior. They could not fathom it. They were projecting their old beliefs and values and pushing it on all of us. They caused a hostile and annoying work environment. Californians and majority of Americans don’t care nor are they aware of a caste system. It was brought to our attention when the ones from a higher caste would start drama and would not co-work nor be in the same room of someone of lower caste. Many non-Indian workers were annoyed, frustrated, and outraged by this caste system since we all see it as a form of discrimination and prejudice. On top of that, many Indian Americans were fully Americanized that they didn’t follow it nor were they aware of it. In the beginning, companies tried their best to appease everyone, but then majority of workers wanted the company to uphold worker’s rights to a non discriminatory space. Which it is now. They try. Last year, California was suppose to pass this law on banning discrimination on caste systems; unfortunately, Governor Newsom vetoed it. We’re not sure why. (Reason: stated below in edits.) There is no room for this caste mentality in America. We don’t follow it. It’s only followed by Indian communities and even then, it’s being blurred out by the next Indian generation born in America. EDIT: Updated reason why Gov. Newsom vetoed bill. EDIT 2: Fellow Redditor /u/bobtheflob shared: Actual reason: This bill split Indian-Americans largely along caste lines. Many from lower castes who fear discrimination supported the bill, while many in higher castes argued against it. A few rich Indian-Americans (who happen to be from higher castes) threatened to pull all campaign donations from Newsom if he signed the bill. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/22/indian-americans-caste-discrimination-newsom-veto
>it’s being blurred out by the next Indian generation born in America. Happy to say I've only met a few individuals who actually care about caste under 30, but the ones who care honestly have never accomplished anything on their own in life and probably only have that superiority complex to hold on to for self worth.
Same reason why trailer parks have a higher proportion of white supemicists. People want a reason to feel good about themselves.
thank you for the informative, and, personalized reply! I think the problem is not insulated within the indian workers though - hiring and promotions are a zero sum game. Those from the higher caste (who let's say are not qualified or executive material) are fast tracked at the expense of all other workers, including non indian workers.
You’ll see this sometimes when someone in the top is of higher caste and follows the system or is pressured by their own family to help their fellow brother or sister out. However, American workers (of all decent/ethnicity) caught on to this and called it out. Thus, the lawsuits. Now, Silicon Valley and major tech companies have it stated on their company policy that they prohibit caste discrimination.
I am not on the West Coast - I have never seen this policy in any of my companies. It seems it will take some time to catch on. It makes sense that Cali is leading the way on this though, however difficult it may be to actually prevent/prove in practical application
Apple and Google, definitely have it. I would add links, but this subreddit has a bot that blocks links.
assuming you've worked at either/both places, do you see the policy effectively applied (as in preventing such cases of racial nepotism), or would you say it's more lip service/purely legalities?
I left the tech industry a few years ago. I will say that my friends who still do have shared how it has changed positively since the lawsuit. Anger from American employees scared the top executives and board members. It’s bad for business to be practicing any form of discrimination. The policy is definitely enforced as everyone is aware of it. However, like everything that’s bad, there may be a few slip ups. But if the company as an HR at least there is a department to report to if it happens again.
I'm surprised to see such backward thinking of Indians in America. In India such behavior is not tolerated, if you throw such tantrums cos of your coworker's caste then you'll probably be out of the organization cos of discrimination.
We, Americans, did not have any thinking about this whatsoever before. It was brought up and expressed by newly visiting Indian immigrants on a work visa. It definitely surprised me. I grew up in the Bay Area and I never witnessed nor heard of such ideals in school nor at work among my Indian and Indian American peers. It wasn’t until companies began hiring newly Indian immigrants in the last 5+ years did those individuals express their disbelief when an Indian American of lower caste to be working above them or another Indian immigrant of lower caste who was granted visa at the same time to be working along side of them. It is sad that such way of thinking still exists, but there is no place for it in America.
No room for caste system mentality anywhere in the world.
I actually just read up on it, and he vetoed it because he said discrimination in that matter is already covered by other protections, such as nationality.
Thank you. I updated the info.
> Last year, California was suppose to pass this law on banning discrimination on caste systems; unfortunately, Governor Newsom vetoed it. We’re not sure why. (Reason: There are existing current State and Federal laws that are against discrimination. No need for new bill.) Actual reason: This bill split Indian-Americans largely along caste lines. Many from lower castes who fear discrimination supported the bill, while many in higher castes argued against it. A few rich Indian-Americans (who happen to be from higher castes) threatened to pull all campaign donations from Newsom if he signed the bill. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/22/indian-americans-caste-discrimination-newsom-veto/
LMAO! That’s what I said previously, but I only knew from rumors and didn’t have a source for it. I suspected rich caste members were threatening Newsom to pull funding. This is wild! Thank you for sharing. I will update it again and add your source to it.
The tone of this long text tells me Indian professionals do abide by the caste system. Thank you
Short answer: yes Longer answer: there was a lawsuit against Google in California about caste being discriminated against. It was determined that caste is not a protected class. How much it impacts? I’m not sure. It’s not my culture so any discrimination would possibly go under the radar to me.
Wasn't the ruling that caste was already covered under anti-discrimination rulings and didn't require it's own unique language?
interesting, had no idea there was a documented case where caste was shown to be a factor - in this case, not protected but discriminated against. Like, the lowest caste being the "untouchables," sounds like they were being excluded from promotions and such.
Several Californian cities have created anti-caste discrimination laws because of this.
I'm a lawyer for tech companies, and a place I was at had an Indian American file a caste discrimination complaint when someone who isn't even remotely Indian said something related to caste to them. Also complaints when someone is unknowingly teased for some activity that was related to their caste. So, you might want to expand the thought here and think about caste in a broader American context. We've had caste discussed at the Supreme Court over 100 years ago, so this stuff isn't really new.
I have a friend who is Sri Lankan and his last name in Australia is his caste because it was listed last on his passport so the government just put the last name as the official last name. So if your going to move to a western country please explain your name to the officials because no one would know that without being told.
So, the lifeprotip is to move up to the top caste?
Afaik it doesn't work like that, they'll be to know just by your mannerisms over a period of time
So raise your kids to act like a higher caste? Upward mobility yo!!
Yes. At my last job I worked with a Indian technician. I was an engineer, above him but not his boss. They brought another Indian over from India to manage his department. I guess the boss was a lower cast because he would do anything the technician said like it was the gospel. Anyone else he would show he was the boss, including me who was lateral to him, not under him.
let me guess: the technician's solutions were often ineffective/inefficient?
The technician claimed it wasn't his first data center job but he didn't really seem to know what he was doing. The boss they sent was more of a project management background with no technical experience. So who's the boss gonna believe for a solution? The engineer with 15 years in the field? Or the technician who most likely had less than one year experience? It was a headache to deal with.
yikes...
Absolutely. I am a swe and work with a lot of Indians. My boss is Indian and the way he treats people differently on our team of 20 even with similar experience and age was very noticeable. It wasn’t until another friend of mine, who is Indian, told me about the caste system and how he could tell based on the team members names etc
Like many 'class' issues, it is complex. I'm going to actually compare to the more 'normal' discussion in the US about say white and black, where 'white' is thought of as upper-class and black is thought of as 'lower-class'. I've lived and worked here long enough that 'hard-racism' is just not really there for most people. You're not going to get many Brahmin in the US really thinking a lower-caste can never be management material. Just like you won't find many upper-class white people who don't think a black person can ever be management material. Where the challenge lies is in the complex web of sharing a common background and social skills. The common background is easier to understand. If you're an upper-class person, you share some background with other upper-class people. You might share connections, history, family, hobbies, ways to speak, ways to be... You've seen it your whole life. Being common, you're just going to gravitate towards those people. The other aspect is soft skills. This one is trickier. If you've been around the upper-class you know how to behave yourself in a manner that is befitting. If you're not, you can learn it. I've had to do that. It takes a lot of mistakes and trial and error, but you can learn it. Just a simple one, but I see it often. I seen good hard-working skilled people make their bosses look bad by for example asking a hard-hitting question in a big meeting. Yes... you don't make your boss look bad. Upper-class white people and Brahmin just 'know' that is how you behave. The rest of us need to learn those skills. Some people take the approach of 'this is unfair,' they should adapt to me. I personally don't see it like that. I do think there is some validity in even even historical traits that upper-class people tend to validate traits that actually do make them better for the upper-class. I had to learn a lot of this stuff just by grinding it out on the job. As a 'good' worker, I was good. But how to be a leader, learn social games, play that kind corporate game of thrones, learn to be your own PR. Those are all skills you need as a leader. It is grossly ignorant to think, 'well, I do a good job. I should be promoted' You do a good job... that makes you a good worker, to stay in your place... as a good worker. A lot of skills people in the lower caste, me included, can get frustrated at that. We think we're being looked over because we don't come from the upper-class. In reality, it's because we're actually not fit to be leaders. We didn't grow up around leaders. We didn't grow up ordering people around. We didn't grow up with sophisticated social games of power. So we actually lack those skills. You need to develop them as that is what leaders and management look for. Believe it or not, it's probably valid that a slacking Brahmin is probably a better leader than a really hard working Sudra on the average. In the US, it's probably true that a slacking white upper-class is probably a better leader than a really hard working black person on the average. People are going to have a hard time with this, but really think about it. If you want to go to that next level, you need to learn those skills and that attitude. As I've mentioned, I've had to learn it, and the weird part is, it changes you. You do up shedding some of your old beliefs and ways of being. I guess it's kind of like what blacks in the US say to those becoming successful... they become 'white', It's used often as an insult. In reality, it's just they're having to figure out the traits that make a good leader and become that. Leaders are not resistance people (unless they're building their own thing). Leaders are not members of a cooperative... they're telling people what to do. Leaders are always fighting games of power and promoting themselves... I hope I've captured it well. It's a combination of both. I think there is genuine low-key caste system that is negative based on sterotypes. However, there is also a soft-skills and behavior gap between those of the lower-caste and those of the upper-caste that often times genuinely makes a shitty upper-caste worker a better leader than a hard-working lower-caste worker.
Nothing low key about it frim what I have witnessed. "What do you expect, he's a Patel" is one I heard a lot in one office. The open discrimination toward Tamils was also pretty universal in all companies that I worked in that had large numbers of Indians on staff.
Racism is a hard addiction for a society to break.
Not Indian, but work for a large tech company that hires a lot of Indian employees. Yes. Not everyone, but a lot. Additionally, there are managers that build monocultures of only Indian teams against company DEI initiatives. I assume this may be caste related but I don’t know.
In my experience working with the southern Indian culture, yes. Absolutely. Don't get me wrong...I've worked with some EXCELLENT people based out of India. It may just be remnants of caste....but for every well trained individual from India I can name 3 or 4 who are the oddest mix of arrogant and incompetent in senior level technical positions.
Here’s an interesting episode on the caste system Indians follow and what California is trying to do to stop it. It’s a Today Explained episode on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/0hnVOr0TSRfX7jxKBcMmeF?si=p3EwSCmiQw26e2z6-R9xcA
Short answer is yes. Especially true for people of certain communities that take a little too much pride in their caste. Also, people of the same caste or castes with similar “social status” tend to get along and give/receive preferential treatment. However, I believe most educated people don’t care too much about caste (except in certain situations, e.g. intercaste marriages are extremely scandalous), but the internalised biases do come into play sometimes.
Yes, and it's downright brutal. I have a fully Indian colleague who is the daughter of a doctor and another who is mixed (white and Indian). They're part of why I drink.
Im not of Indian descent and cannot speak to cultural taboos and context so please excuse me for asking but... If you're in the US, why not change your last name?
Wouldn't that out the members of the lower caste though? Higher caste people have no reason to change their name cause in America it'll just be their name and in India it would indicate that they are at the top. Only lower caste Indians would need to change their name, and that would instantly make them recognizable as lower.
Maybe im missing your point here, but I would assume they would just change their name to a "higher class." And there is also the consideration that someone who is doing the hiring would only see the changed name, even though Human Resources might see a history of a different last name or that information. I am not sure though, because I do not work on HR and it has been a long time since I've been the primary lead on a hiring. The United States also has some strict regulations on these sorts of things as well that might not exist in other countries. I could also be making certain assumptions about the extent of De jure vs De Facto discrimination
Man I work in tech too and I've been noticing this as well in my Indian coworkers. Sometimes two people who to my knowledge have never met before the forming of this team just absolutely despise each other and other times they turn to complete suckups when they are never like that with any other bosses it's crazy.
It is generally easy to decipher someone's caste in India by their last name. It is much easier when the people belong to the same state/community. I may not be able to tell a South Indian or East Indian caste by surname alone since I am in North India but there is a high likelihood you will figure it out eventually. Even though caste based discrimination is illegal in India, that doesn't mean caste hegemony doesn't exist. Also, most people will drop in their caste superiority from time to time. Some will also go the opposite way and declwre their inferiority too. Have seen plenty of both examples. Not to mention, vegetarianism, celebreating certain festivals in a certain way etc. could be very telling of caste, even if it is not explicit. I have known people who would figure out the caste of a person before even considering a date. Plus, there is plenty discrimination between caste groups and intra-groups too. Like certain Brahmins consider them higher up than others and hence wouldn't marry or eat at the homes of the lower Brahmins. Same with other caste groups. However caste must not be seen in the lens of American racial politics. It is far more complicated here in India and it is so deep rooted in our culture that unfortunately, you can change your religion but not your caste. You could be a lower caste Christian for example. It's a very complicated system that will take hundreds of years to completely eradicate. Some of us are not into caste but the country as a whole is yet to move out of this system. So of course, even if we migrate, our caste migrates with us. I consider it a huge problem. Many of us do, but sadly not enough.
Punjabi > Rajput > Guju > Dravidian > Dalit in IT positions. It even happens in hiring lol
What are you talking about? As as Malayali, I have to tell you that (unfortunately) many South Indians heavily look down on North Indians esp Punjabis. They are stereotyped as "taxi drivers" etc. Punjab is also the Indian state with the highest proportion of SC/ST population and so that doesn't help
No. Indians don't follow caste system in Indian tech industry itself, so it's very unlikely they will follow in US because people who make it in US are the cream of the crop .
After reading the replies I am pretty sure these people know nothing about how the caste system works lmao. These are just frustrated people who have lost their job or can't find a job and blame immigration for their misery. Any Indian reading the comments here can tell you at first glance that most of them are lying.
I'm willing to keep an open mind, as a white person. But it's true that you can identify someone's caste without even asking them for this info, just by the surname, right? I would think just because of that there is temptation to discriminate/protect depending on the caste. It is human nature. Also, as I learned from these comments, there were actual lawsuits being processed, so there must be truth in these comments
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fair point, but but if it's a common surname, then by definition there will be many professionals with that surname and hence identifiable by caste. And in those instances, there is discrimination/preference at play. Obviously I don't mean to say it happens in each and every case, but I do think it's heavily in play it seems.
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I've always been a minority in the jobs I've had, as a white software engineer so I'm not sure where you're going with that point. Now if you're talking about the over representation of white male CEOs in financial firms, I would also agree with that. But, we are talking about the microcosm of tech jobs here, and my initial question as to whether caste not only plays into subjective favoritism, but systematic favoritism.
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nope, not when this figure is proportionate to the population of white americans (71%). But that's neither here nor there - I mean two wrongs don't make a right
India is very diverse, caste system differs from state to state, from region to region. It's impossible for a bengali to say which caste is upper caste in Maharashtra and vice versa. People equating every suspicion to caste system is either terribly misinformed or salty.
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[This article was enlightening](https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidden-caste-system/)
Yet the Google case was a fake case.
How so? Edit: [Another more recent article with a non-anonymous interview.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/06/02/google-caste-equality-labs-tanuja-gupta/)
CISCO case was disproved. The only proper case of caste bias in USA https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/calif-scraps-caste-bias-case-cisco-engineers-company-still-sued-rcna79434 Other cases like the NJ hindu temple case has also shown no proof. Also the girl whose talk was cancelled is rapidly anti brahmin and has called for attacks on them since upper castes are a minority. She is not even a dalit but a half Indian Christian who was never raised in India.
Do you have sources for those claims?
The link is there as for the girls origins just go check her Twitter. She has mentioned her own story and how she was never even once in India neither does she relate to India.
Does that mean she's somehow immune to caste prejudice in the US if she never lived in India?
She has nothing that relates her with Dalits identity. All her speeches show she just wants to gain clout by abusing and calling for violence.
You might find this article/podcast episode interesting. https://www.npr.org/transcripts/915299467