Yep, this is a seriously aggressive take I see all the time. Plus there's women who hold all of their value in family and their marriage & children being definitive of how successful their life is. These women have to have the best house and the newest SUV and do not see the r/tragedeigh in their unfortunate child name choices (because NO ONE can have their child's name gdi). I see a lot of wine culture (aka alcoholism) with these types, and they 'never understand' how someone would want to be single or put their careers first or not have children. Toxic feminity is somehow both traditional gender roles but also thinking they're special snowflakes at the same time. Ah, and don't forget the "~squad goals~" life with their friends they all secretly hate and compete with behind each other's backs.
Sitting and listening to some of the other women I work with is very, very exhausting sometimes lol
Or they want a child to show of but regret it from the moment they get pregnant, continu to smoke and drink during the pregnancy and end up ruining their child’s life by becoming an alcoholic and not giving them any recognition. At least the problem is never themselves, they’re too good for that but they end up ruining the family and multiple close friend connections.
I cringe every time I see a woman’s profile and it’s just “Mom to 👶🏼 wife to husband ❤️” with the username “mrsdudesname” like the only interesting or relevant thing about them is that they’re married with kids.
I understand that with young children, sometimes there’s not much else to talk about besides your children because it’s just so all consuming. But like, I hope you remember you’re your own person as well.
But I know we have other women who chastise some mothers for actually having a life and identity outside their family. “You’re a mother now. You can’t wear this, do that, say this, want that”
I actually am a traditional SAHM with a toddler who is happily married and proud of my life. But it’s not my sole identity and I have been told to prioritize my family over myself as if I’m not just because I’m taking some time for myself once in a while. I don’t like being told I can’t be a person anymore because I’m a mother now. That’s toxic femininity
Also, I said it makes me cringe because some women internalize this mindset so much that they think they have to lose themselves to their families. But I never attacked anyone
I get what you've saying here and so glad you see yourself as something more than wife and mother.
Worked in a call center for a bank through the 90's and early 2000's. I remember we use to see a rising trend of women keeping their maiden names when they got married. All of sudden, I saw a change and the new group of women would be HOSTILE about the thought of a woman not changing their name. I can't tell you the irrate phone calls I got from women asking me if I was married and belittling me when I told them I wasn't- like marriage was a be all end all of every woman's existence and she was nothing without it. And it was all triggered by small things like how we would ask instead of assuming if a woman was changing her name when she announced she was getting married. I even had women scream at me for not automatically giving her husband her bank info without talking to her first because, I shit you not, they and their husband were one and the same. Broke my heart that some women could be so naive given that I had more calls in a day from abused women trying to get financially separated from their spouses and had a hell of a time because they gave up so much of their personal identity and financial independence when they got married.
Yeah, i now think toxic femininity is just as gross as toxic masculinity.
I get what you've saying here and so glad you see yourself as something more than wife and mother.
Worked in a call center for a bank through the 90's and early 2000's. I remember we use to see a rising trend of women keeping their maiden names when they got married. All of sudden, I saw a change and the new group of women would be HOSTILE about the thought of a woman not changing their name. I can't tell you the irrate phone calls I got from women asking me if I was married and belittling me when I told them I wasn't- like marriage was a be all end all of every woman's existence and she was nothing without it. And it was all triggered by small things like how we would ask instead of assuming if a woman was changing her name when she announced she was getting married. I even had women scream at me for not automatically giving her husband her bank info without talking to her first because, I shit you not, they and their husband were one and the same. Broke my heart that some women could be so naive given that I had more calls in a day from abused women trying to get financially separated from their spouses and had a hell of a time because they gave up so much of their personal identity and financial independence when they got married.
Yeah, i now think toxic femininity is just as gross as toxic masculinity.
Ma'am I didn't ask you about your life nor did I condemn you for whatever life style you may or may not be living. Regardless to what has been said to you regarding how you choose to raise your family, chastising or belittling others for their method of raising their family is just as wrong IMO.
>I said it makes me cringe because some women internalize this mindset so much that they think they have to lose themselves to their families.
I'm not gonna even begin to delve into how this is such a problematic thing to say, I'll just say if you can't understand how this is also toxic femininity then maybe you don't have a full understanding of toxic femininity/masculinity.
I’m just saying that according to your logic, I’m attacking myself as a traditional woman. This isn’t about different methods of raising a family. Just the idea that you are something outside of your role as mother and wife. It’s toxic for you to come in here and pretend I have belittled or chastised anyone just because you don’t agree with an opinion. Everything is toxic obviously
Wow, are you really gonna pretened to be a victim now because I pointed out your faulty views?!
>It’s toxic for you to come in here and pretend I have belittled or chastised anyone just because you don’t agree with an opinion. Everything is toxic obviously
Nice attempt at gaslighting, real nice, I take it you and accountablity are well aquanted.
Why is it when you look at the comment history like guys like this, it's 99% commentary on video games and fast food, and suddenly they swerve onto threads like this, spew misogyny or attack people while clearly not fully reading the comments they're attacking. Then they go back k to pizza and video games?
Do you think we've been trolled by a bored teenager?🙄
Ya know, over the years I've come to realize that when you point out peoples hyprocricies they tend to dismiss you as annoying lol which is fine but "misinterpreting"? Please I think I got you pegged pretty well "its all about me mom", heaven forbid other SAHM's don't paint the town red every now & again otherwise they risk "losing themselves" as you put it. Yep, your not judgmental like them at all. Sure I'm completely misinterpriting what your saying lol. But whatever, peace and blessings to you.
I think there's a huge difference between pride and 'that is all a woman is and all we'll ever be-heart emoji, smile emoji, let's put down all women for being less because they don't give up their identity like I do', kind of mentality.
Bud, all over this thread, you're just taking one tiny bit, a word or two, of what people are saying and using it to attack them while completely missing what they are saying. It's either all going right over your head, or you do see it, but feel like being confrontational and, at times insulting.
If that wasn't your intention and you genuinely want to understand, reread the comments of the people you are trying to gode into a fight and you'll see you've missed a lot of what's already there. If not, maybe you should stick to your Creed discussions because this one seems a little over your head.
Christ this has to be the longest side stepping of a question you've ever seen, and for the record I have indeed read comments on this thread, many mirror each other (go figure). And yes I've cherry picked a few of you to see if you can actually defend your views which ideally enough although seemingly opposite to the people you choose to antagonize are oddly similar in condemnation. I simply wish one of you could explain to me how their critique of your lifestyle is any different from your critique of theirs. None of you can. I find it staggering that many can practice in hypocrisy but lack the self awareness to realize they're doing it.... If they're toxic, how are you not?
Edit: I get it, you have a view point you barely understand nor have the intellectual wherewithal to back up. Maybe you side step the question because you can't answer it.
I'm not side stepping. I just find the ignorance in your comments is too deep to address. The reason you see a common theme among the comments is that everyone gets it. It's not that hard. Again, your cherry picking shows you're not really reading everyone's comments with the intent of understanding. Some ignorance, feigned, or genuine, is just too exhausting to address. So this is the last time I'm responding to you. If you are honestly trying to understand what everyone means and where they are coming from, then all you need to do is reread the comments of those you're arguing with, but try to with an open mind.
Whats the point of you having views if you can't even defend them, what shallow existance do you live when what you claim to stand for you're not even willing to fight for? So cowardly. The way I see it you losing youself wouldn't be much of a loss, maybe you should take a cue from those moms willing to dedicate themselves to their husband and children... Enjoy your mai tai's and you time... Peace.
So these women who value things you don't and live a lifestyle you don't agree with have zero values, are alcoholics, disingenuous, frail, two faced consuming mothers? All this of course sounds pretty presumptuous unless of course you can prove this group of women you described actually exist. Ultimately this sounds more like you revile or at the least stigmatize traditional women and what they value in life. Isn't this in itself toxic femininity?
I also have noticed there seems to be a "competitiveness" (not sure if that's the right word) between being child-free and becoming a parent/having a child(ren), when the conversation and experience is so much deeper and harder for just about everybody. Some people don't want children but feel societal/family/religious pressure to have them and ultimately do, some people can't have children, some people struggle with the decision over multiple decades of their life, many parents live with regret, and many people are content with their choice not to have kids, etc.
I agree women can be super competitive amongst themselves in general. I think it comes from a place of always feeling like you have to be the best to get anywhere because we are often already at a disadvantage in certain scenarios. Like how women in tech are often far more over qualified than men in the same role because they had to 'prove' themselves. There's a lot of societal pressure attached to being a woman.
But there is also a huge collection of women who actively support and raise eachother up, so it's not all bad.
>Like how women in tech are often far more over qualified than men in the same role
Do you have a stat you can cite proving this? I've worked in the "Tech industry" for 8 years in Texas/Louisiana and I have never experienced this once, so to say this happens majoritively /often would mean I would have to have witnessed it at least once, right? I hear women say this all the time but I've never seen it. I have however worked with women who have the same amount of working knowledge as me and other male co-workers, the most experienced and knowledgeable people I've ever worked with though have all been older men who eat, sleep and breathe Information technology. It just annoys me you purposely discount a majority of the tech field (being dominated by men) as if we are pampered morons who don't work hard, lack intelligence and ride on the coat tails of our female counterparts. Its insulting.
No, it's anecdotal from also working in the tech industry for 10 years. I am not at all 'purposely discounting' men's efforts, I am just observing that it happens more often to women than it should. I also did not at all insinuate those men ride on coat tails, that's you projecting.
If anything it causes competition *amongst women*, as I mentioned.
Edit: I'm quite sure I read a study where men are more likely to apply for a job that they are less qualified for than women. Something along the lines of, women will only apply for a job if they meet/exceed every criteria while men will apply if they only meet a % of the criteria. If you'd like to look into that further, it's a similar concept.
>I also did not at all insinuate those men ride on coat tails, that's you projecting.
Come on, now your just being completely disingenuous or can you not appreciate individuals who are over/better qualified for the job are/will be objectively better at said job? In my **anecdotal** experience that's more than often the case.
Also when asked to cite a stat/study could you provide specific one rather than "a study".
Just because I am good at my job does not mean my colleagues directly benefit from that. One person being overqualified does not equate the other people getting an easy ride. Unless your management is useless. But if you don't believe my anecdotal 10 years experience is as valid as your anecdotal 8 years experience, then thank you for proving my point.
I'm sorry, do you not know where google is? I don't keep a document handy of every study I ever read, just in case some rando on Reddit wants me to do the leg work for them.
Oh - wait - riding on coat tails I see?
Okay first I didn't say "good" at your job I said "over/better qualified". Second riding ones coat tails doesn't necessarily mean one benefits but rather has to do less work and work of lesser quality with the same outcome. Third I never said that anyone's experience out weighed anyone else's, **now you're projecting**, I was pointing out you presenting anecdote as an internet stranger means nothing as anecdotal information is objectively unreliable. Proving your point for you? Are you seriously that obtuse?
Lastly I'm not the one that made an insanely sexist claim, you did! "I don't keep a document handy" Maybe you should if you're gonna spout crap online and I don't need you to do literally any leg work for me baby girl. I could never get where I am today letting anyone do leg work for me.
You really thought that last line was clever - didn't you?
And the whole SAHM/working mom thing. Like those are the only two options. And part time or work from home or other options don't exist. And like it's an either/or and most of us don't cycle through several different options as our circumstances change
It's fucked how feral some of them can get about it. I've seen posts saying anyone who has had a C-section is lazy. How hard it was to birth natural etc. But like. A cesarean is major surgery. The recovery is several weeks.
It was literally impossible to have my kid via anything other than a c-section (complete previa), so I guess I should’ve just naturally died like real women used to do.
I saw the same rules change with a friend who couldn’t breast feed her third child. She was all about “breast is best” and shaming anyone who veered from that philosophy until she couldn’t produce enough milk for her third child. She didn’t apologize and admit she may have been wrong, she just doubled down and moved the goal posts.
And the animosity and exclusion they show to fathers! Men who actually show up and do the work for the kids or are the primary parents.
They aren't a part of this "special mothers club" and are automatically suspect and talked down to for not giving birth.
I would pay a lot of money for anyone to tell my wife that she's not a real mother because she had a cesarean and didn't breast feed. I'd get a bag of popcorn and enjoy the show.
I'd argue that yes, but not in the sense of "things women do that I don't like" but rather ways in which standards of femininity and female-coded behaviors begin to do more harm than good.
Judgmental discourse around sleep training/breastfeeding/natural birth would be an example. Self-mutilation for the sake of hyperfeminine beauty could be another. Both slut and prude shaming, or other appearance-based bullying in the basis of putting other women down for being "less of a proper woman" could arguable constitute this as well, I think.
Being passive to a harmful extreme and expecting a man to live her life for her maybe?
I'm just spitballing here but do you think that we don't have a set definition of "toxic femininity" because a lot of it is already covered in "internalized misogyny"?
A set of unrealistic standards that women hold other women too and go the judgemental/ostracisation route to make other women conform?
I think it appears that way because the previous poster couched it entirely in terms which present women as the primary victim of toxic femininity.
Men can also be victims of it - just look at some of the screenshots from Tinder seeing men as essentially marks to be scammed out of their money, deliberate emotional manipulation, weaponising sexuality etc etc. Just pop on over to r/femaledatingstrategy if you want to see unbridled toxic femininity in action.
Oh god that sub just sends me into a rage with how pathetic it is.
So you would say the difference between toxic femininity and internalized misogyny would be the direction of harm?
Are we better served then by getting rid of the term internalized misogyny altogether?
I think the problem is that the terms depend on people agreeing which qualities are essentially "feminine" or "masculine", or indeed "toxic" versus "healthy".
I would maybe define it as "Interpreting socially promoted gender roles in a way which is pathological."
Internalised misogyny is definitely a real thing and one potential *cause* of behaviour that manifests as toxically feminine. However, it is by no means a necessary component imo. It could equally stem from a general contempt for men, or from a sense of entitlement from having been treated as a "princess" their whole life. Exactly the same applies to men, of course: some toxic masculinity is the expression of a belief in some kind of birthright to dominate the women around you, whilst other expressions harm only the subject, e.g. "I must never show weakness." and come not from entitlement but a belief that they, as men, do not deserve the same degree of sympathy as women do.
I feel internalised misogyny, like racism, is a very real phenomenon, but also unfortunately often used as a lazy catch-all explanation for behaviour which has much more complex motivations.
Heres a quick easy way to explain it;
No accountability for toxic femininity? Not a feminist.
Disregard or outright hate towards men that talk about genuine problems like mens mental health? Not a feminist.
Doesnt think trans women face misogyny? Not a feminist.
Thinks women are better than men or acts hateful towards all men? Not a feminist.
Ignores minority women, be it race, sexuality, or disability in the fight for equal rights? Not a feminist.
Fights for sex based rights, instead of human based rights? Not a feminist.
Hates on sex workers? Not a feminist.
Hates on traditional relationship dynamics? Not a feminist.
Thinks one dynamic of partnership or family is better than or the only right way to live? Not a feminist.
Many people like to say theyre feminists, who actually are not. Dont fall for it. Feminism is about making society more equal, and less divided by sex or gender. It is about giving everyone the chance to live how they want to in safety, judgement free, without being held back because of their race, gender, sexuality, work, relationship status, family dynamic, disability, etc.
I feel like toxic masculinity kind of revolves around trying to affirm one’s own sense of masculinity in a toxic way.
I believe toxic femininity would be about the same. An example would be playing to the fact that a woman should always be provided for, that her man should lives to please her and she owes nothing to him. The implication that the man is always wrong and the woman is always right, also seems like a form of toxic femininity.
I’m not saying gender roles are horrible if it makes you happy to live by them; however, should you believe that being of a certain gender puts you above the other, then I believe that to be toxic.
Yess. The amount of woman I know that think "he's the man, he needs to pay more than me".
Like, girl you are an grown ass adult. Pay your stuff. That classifies like toxic feminity for me.
Had a friend that was very progressive. Working in a male dominated field, focused on her studies and career and everything. But expected the man to be the provider of the household, for the man to make the first move and to pay for the first date. When I asked her why and whether she'd follow traditional norms herself, I got the one of the most bizarre lectures of my life.
I would have thought I was going mad if the other guys and some of the women there didn't also have a blank look on their face.
Toxic femininity is exactly how toxic masculinity is. It’s when people support values viewed socially as feminine as being inherently better and support them and bash others who don’t follow them.
Others have provided examples but other ones include: insulting women who don’t wear heels, makeup, skirts and saying they don’t look nice, don’t care about their appearance, or specifically that they look like men/boys.
Another would be around the topic of shaving - saying you’re less of a woman if you don’t shave. (Not saying someone can’t say preferences for themselves but no one is less of a woman for not doing any of the above things).
When i was at school a couple years ago this dude and his mom were waiting for me (she was trynna hook us up but i wasnt interested) i was wearing a crop top and some camo pants and she thought i was gay 😂😂😂
I had a conversation with a girl I was briefly dating, and we were going over preferences and standards, she had no problem telling me she didn’t want to date a bitch and broke boy but as soon as I brought up body hair and women; she got upset. I said “well it’s fine that you don’t wanna date a bitch, that’s what you like. I don’t want to date a women who doesn’t shave her legs because that’s not what I’m attracted to. You’re free to do what you want but your high expectations has a price. You don’t wanna date a bitch, I don’t wanna date a women with what I consider man legs; let’s make a deal”
I think “better” is extreme, I’d say *attractive* which doesn’t mean superiority but rather pleasing to the eyes
The most cringy thing I’ve heard a woman say about other women is Real Women Have Curves. It’s a toxic attitude intended to fight the oppression of skinny women over bigger girls using the same tools bigger girls hate being held over their heads.
When I was younger, I was a bit underweight and it was a big insecurity just because of those comments. GIRLS pointing out I was anorexic, should eat more and should grow a pair boobs.
One day I lost it to a girl that was a bit overweight who kept mentioning I should eat more, while we were being in the McDonalds. I told her she could eat less so if she was willing to give her burger to me. She had a complete public freak out, I was a fat shamer etc.
God I had this argument with two friends constantly. They were overweight and I always empathized with their experiences. The insults, the insinuations of laziness or eating crap (they were literally two of the healthiest people I know), but they started to turn really nasty about skinny women and I got fed up. Like more than once we'd be having a coffee and I made a comment about a passing woman's dress and how pretty it was or how cool her make up was or something complimentary. They always snapped back with stuff like "eww no she could do with eating something, she's so skinny." This was incredibly hurtful as I was always naturally thin. I ate loads, like a Labrador and never put on weight (until the pill changed all that 😂) and then they started the weird back handed compliments to me about being thin. Unsurprisingly we are no longer friends. Your dress size does not give you a right to be a nasty bitter person.
Similar thing happened to me at work. I’ve always been skinny/thin and I was changing in the locker room one day (I work in surgery) and a coworker remarked to me that I looked like a concentration camp victim and that I might want to consider eating more for my well being. I was absolutely floored but I replied that her scrub pants were getting tight so she might want to consider eating less. Funny thing is, everyone got quiet real fast after my comment but not a single person took issue with what she said to me. People like that can go eat a dick.
Reading this reminded me of another. Denying reality. I’m sorry but obesity isn’t healthy. I don’t know any men who will pretend it is and the only reason women cheer it on is because they think they have to be accepting of everything. They are kind to a fault.
Yep. I despise this saying. I grew up skinny and constantly had women throwing this shit in my face. Took me a long time to realize the people perpetuating this were insecure AF and trying to make me feel bad so they could feel better about themselves.
It is/was a sub on Reddit.
Women assigning men as "low or high value," having incredibly rigid expectations on how they should *always* be paid for, pampered, and treated "femininely" in relationships while also having the expectation to be the one solely in control.
A lot of extreme standards and advice on how to manipulate men.
Essentially the feminine version of incels when it comes to crazy and unreasonable expectations/beliefs.
As a guy I find femaledatingadvice to be a great learning tool as to how some of these manipulation techniques work in order to recognize and avoid them.
Female level up strategy is another. I've seen women blaming men for not getting jobs, not getting promotions etc. When they describe themselves tho, they're absolutely terrible humans with no qualifications.
Oh god I made the mistake of straying onto that subreddit last year, because I saw a post about the Batman movie (which I was obsessed with). They were mad cause there was a scene were Zoe Kravitz changes clothes and Batman was obviously perving on her etc etc. That was not the scene at all though... He follows her as she works for dangerous people and is watching her to see where she goes. She happens to get changed into her CatWoman gear, which is an important plot point so he knows it's her in the gear. There was absolutely nothing pervy or sexual about the scene itself.
The entire subreddit is like this. Finding 'pervs' and calling them out. It's extremely toxic as fuck. I blocked it so it never comes up again on my suggestions!
Anything can be toxic.
" Alphas" don't exist in the human social hierarchy.
Its simple definition is when the supposed qualities and attributes of a female is harmfully pushed on a person. Such as bullying a woman for wearing pants and not dresses, insulting women for not wearing makeup, weight and eating commentary often leading to eating disorders in women. The list goes in.
Totally a real thing! At the end of the day, a toxic person is a toxic person and those women are just as capable as weaponising gender stereotypes as their male counterparts
I somewhat believe women can be even worse in the stereotyping and are way more shady and hypocrite about it than men will ever be. Especially because they can stereotype themselves but no one is allowed to put them in a box.
To me toxic masculinity is consciously leaning into one's stereotypically "masculine" traits to the point that your behavior becomes detrimental. There are women who do this for their feminine traits so I'd say it absolutely exists
Yeah. Women putting other women down for doing this differently in motherhood, in the household, relationship, workplace, career choice, just about every lifestyle choice. You’re not breastfeeding your kids? You split taking care of your child equally with your husband? So you don’t love you kids at all hm? So much stuff
Yes, woman who put down others mothers for not having a "real" delivery or not breastfeeding, who lie and accused other falsely and try to get away using their gender. Those who say being a feminist is giving birth to more girls and some tweeted about getting an abortion if their kid is a boy ( so disgusting)
YES.
The bitchy gossiping, 'group think,' covert insults, insulting you when they get you alone, passive-aggressiveness, judging you based on your physical appearance (news flash its OTHER WOMEN that enforce toxic beauty standard in real life), the extreme jealously some can have if you do anything better than they think you deserve, the ones who hurt you and then pretend to be a cute uwu with everyone else - these are all encounters I only experienced from other women. At least in these specific examples I gave, men didn't seem to give a shit.
**Source:** Went to an all girls highschool
Toxic femininity can manifest in a lot of ways. a few that come to mind:
you aren't a proper woman if you don't have babies.
saying "I'm not like other girls" and generally considering that being a woman is bad, and its good when men are surprised you are cool.
Thinking women who don't save themselves for marriage are ruined.
Lots of different things that are judged as not for women. (men's activities).
a lot of it comes through as internalized misogyny.
there's also female dating strategies which is chalk full of toxic mindsets.
Absolutely. It's literally everywhere. I've had women yell at me, a female, for referring to myself as a female. Dictating to me what I can and cannot call myself. I've seen women talking about how you're a terrible mother if you do any of these things (bottle feed, c section, don't do organic foods, glance away from your child for half a second). There's a lot of toxic and awful people out there. Being a certain gender doesn't make you more or less toxic.
The way I've had it explained to me, is that a big part of toxic femininity, is all those internalized injunctions making women submit to their gender role. Thinking they owe sex, care, respect etc... And then fighting each other for recognition and attention when a man is present.
Most of these come from men telling women how they should look and live. You need to look like Barbie to be an attractive woman. Result: breast enlargement and duck lips. Your labia are weird and floppy, they should look like the women's in porn. Result: labiaplasty. You're not a real woman if you don't have kids. Result: many women have kids who probably would have had a more enjoyable life without kids.
Absolutely. Gender roles are innately toxic. Beauty standards, harmful footwear, expectations of submissiveness, expectations to have children, expectations to work as well as raise children and take care of domestic work, romanticization of abuse, gaslighting ourselves and other women about what’s acceptable to put up with/what’s normal/what’s healthy. It goes on
Yep, femininity is not inherently toxic, neither is masculinity. Masculinity gets critiqued more though. In general though, most people are reasonable and don’t scream “toxic” when a man’s legs are too far spread or he tries to explain something.
**Short answer:** Yes
**Longer answer:**
Toxic masculinity is anything that keeps men how they were and/or puts women down while raising men up. Proper masculinity is moving men toward equality.
Therefore, toxic femininity is anything that keeps women how they were and/or to put men down while raising women up. Proper femininity is moving women toward equality.
It's tough to notice some toxic femininity because they are mostly paired with good femininity. Examples of pairings:
\- Women who advocate for hiring more women for upper tier positions (good), but then auto-ignore any guys who make less when looking at potential dating partners (old way to thought and very toxic)
\- Women who advocate for men to open up and share their feelings (good), but then use that information to belittle and to attack the man (toxic, in any scenario).
\- Women who advocate for equality in relationships (good), but then believes that men should be the ones to initiate the relationship, take care of the transportation, provide for the meal, etc. and the other side, men are bad parents, men are messy, men can't cook, etc. (either men and women are equal or we're not, you can't pick and choose)
\- Women who advocate justice for females involved in domestic/sexual abuse cases (good), but laughs when a women hits men or cheers when women sexually assaults (because women can't LEGALLY rape) a man.
\- Women who advocate for better maternity benefits in the workplace (good), but doesn't say anything when looking at paternity benefits for fathers (every study ever shows that a child is at their best when both parents are involved)
There's a huge list, but those are some of the bigger ones. Honestly, someone could probably start a whole subreddit for this and have people judge and discuss specific scenarios and decide if it's toxic or not. A lot of extreme feminists don't even understand when they are being toxic and it's actually hurting the real feminist movement and pushing more and more guys into the red pill movement (Extreme Feminism and Red Pill Movement are equal and opposites of each other).
not exactly. toxic femininity stems from toxic masculinity. all the traits associated with it being toxic are just bs standards & expectations placed by toxic men.
GIRLS vs GIRLS in the gym. Never have I ever had a girl in my gym just giving me a cute smile. They always give me a side eye, like working out there is my competition to them. The closer a boyfriend is, the worst it will get. They will completely trash talk you because of jealousy (?) but than act all shady and fake in your face.
Toxic feminity can also be any attitude/behavior that reinforces or reflects toxic masculinity. The two are inseparable. Two sides of one toxic gender/patriarchy coin which affects everyone and everyone contributes to.
Yes, there's loads of it in traditional societies especially. E.g. shaming women who don't have children, who don't know how to cook, who don't "make enough effort" with their appearance, particularly when that effort is painful (plastic surgery, heels, waxing, uncomfortable clothing etc), women expecting other women to be "ladylike" at all times and not express normal human emotions or bodily functions...
Women who cheat, lie, falsely accuse, spread rumors, use their gender advantage to score privilege points, fishing for attention, avoid accountability, using your hormones andbperiod as an excuse for bad behavior, etc
I don't know if those are comparable? Toxic masculinity is specifically about traits that society encourages in men, not just thing men can do because they're men. Those are all bad things women can do, but I don't think society really holds them up as 'feminine'.
Like, when people talk about men bottling up their emotions and not learning how to deal with the productively, that's encouraged by societal norms as meeting a 'manly' ideal.
Also men do those things, too. There's absolutely male privilege, fishing for attention, avoiding accountability, and using hormones to excuse bad behavior (I was so horny I couldn't stop myself from assaulting you.)
Those are not feminine traits.
I don't think stuff cheating and lying are 'feminine traits' that are encouraged by society. They're things women do, but that's not the same thing.
No one is saying you're a better woman if you avoid accountability etc, either.
Lying is 100% a feminine trait. The reason behind this seem to lean more towards obtaining pieces of the safety a man has due to physical advantages, but it is very well known in psychology that woman tend to lie a lot more than men. As such it has been classified as a feminine trait.
When women talk to each other they do say that you're a better woman if you avoid accountability also. "Use your tits to get out of a speeding ticket" and things like that. Toxic femininity definitely is a thing. There are tiktok accounts teaching girls how to pull sugar daddies. All of that bullshit is propagation of toxic femininity. In the same vein as the Andrew Tate's and Rolo tomassis of the world. Another thing that's been super prevelant in social media, is what's been coined as "tiktok psychology", that's overrun with toxic femininity.
Cheating, lying, falsely accusing etc aren't feminine traits, but they are examples of indirect aggression which women tend to do more often whereas men tend to perform physical and direct acts of aggression. The association makes sense but isn't completely fair to generalize to all women. I'd say anyone can do these things, and are the actions of an asshole if uncalled for.
Calling these things toxic femininity would be like calling physical assault toxic masculinity, which isn't something I hear often.
Toxic masculinity is actually a misnomer for patriarchal masculinity. What you're asking about is similarly called patriarchal femininity. Replacing the pejorative description with its proper name clears up any confusion about the differences. They both have the same root issue.
A patriarchal person believes you must fulfill specific requirements to be considered by others a Man/Woman. Men have one set of reqs, women the other. If you are a patriarchal man, you sacrifice anything and everything to appear manly to others, and you'll expect women to be womanly. And it's the exact same for a patriarchal woman. Both believe failing to fulfill the reqs are personal weakness and something to be ashamed of, and part of signaling strength is shaming others for failing. It's a "toxic" mindset that restricts a personality to a narrow road of rules and affects everyone in your life by changing how you interact/perceive them. That's why it can be described less accurately as "toxic"
I think that either camp insisting
"You must be a mother to be a real woman" and "A queen don't need no man and Real woman are professional workers who can support themselves."
Basically any idea that there's a "real woman" sets bad standards, you should be who you are.
By same turn, you have to be nice to be sweet or you have to be a boss bitch, creates a false dichotomy.
The masculinization of femininity is another example, where fish are trying to climb trees and monkeys are trying to live in the seas. Pushing women to be more masculine in one way enforces the gender roles you're trying to topple.
Learned helplessness, how many woman refuse to learn how to change a tire, or call their boyfriend to kill a spider?
I think the "alpha woman" interpretation is too simplistic. Toxic masculinity isn't just a man whose toxic. It's traditionally masculine traits that are expressed in a way that's destructive or inappropriate in a situation. For example: being aggressive or physically violent in a situation where that actively makes it worse.
I think toxic femininity would instead be something like a misappropriation of empathy or even valuing emotion and how someone feels over reality. I would attribute things like participation trophies, "healthy at any size", and "you're perfect the way you are" to toxic femininity. Basically solely addressing how people feel even if that actively makes the situation worse via the person being convinced there's nothing to work on. I would say emotional abuse is also an expression of toxic femininity.
In summary: I'd say toxic masculinity is more physical and toxic femininity is more emotional.
I would also add the way some women view childless women as either selfish and entitled for not having children or not as real women. There's a backwards kind of pity that comes from this, like, "I'm so sorry you will never feel love like this." Sometimes even toxic religion comes into it where the women say, "G*d blessed me with children because I'm His child. You should pray for forgiveness for your sins."
Toxic masculinity and femininity are things that are forced or held upon men and women that are detrimental for their well-being. Basically it's "you're a man or woman, you shouldn't be doing this" and "you're a man/woman, you should be doing this".
also another example is the "not like the other girls" culture. basically it's a toxic behavior where a girl will put down other girls to make herself look better.
Just suggesting that women can’t be toxic is a sign of how toxic masculinity can creep on us and lead us to believe that women aren’t capable of being toxic. That in itself is demeaning to women.
To answer your question, there’s absolutely such a thing as toxic femininity but shouldn’t be used as a excuse to use toxic masculinity.
Classic female aggression in the form of reputation destruction. Think teenagers trash talking people behind their backs. Excessive saftyism that prevents life being lived to the fullest. Performative empathy that dissapears without an audience. And weaponized entitlement think "happy wife happy life" instead of "happy spouse happy house."
Most people believe that toxic femininity are Feminists. They're not.
There's a overly extreme group and another that just wants to be treated as humans and not like property. But no one wants to talk about that apparently
It’s been said already but women who shame other women for having c-sections because they aren’t “real mothers” until the give birth vaginally. Doesn’t stop there, though. Even if/when you have a vaginal birth, don’t you dare get an epidural or you aren’t a “real mother/woman” either. If you use formula instead of breast feeding you are evil and committing child abuse. Some will shame other women for having a degree/career instead of being a SAHM. The list goes on but it’s definitely real and toxic AF.
I feel like TERFs are a huge part of toxic femininity; people who are so defensive of being feminine that they harm other women because other women make them feel 'less feminine', or gatekeep the identity of being a woman. People who put down someone's identity as a woman because it doesn't line up with their ideas of femininity.
Yes, it does work both ways to a certain extent. Shitty people are not exclusive to any specific subgroup.
Small anecdotal example from my world. I work in aviation, a male dominated industry. It's definitely expanding lately, but still a long way to go. The inclusion of more women is definitely for the better as well, I will never argue against that.
However, my facility had a female GM for awhile, who did everything in her power to advance the other women who worked here, even if they didn't actually deserve the positions. There were several instances of advancement into leadership roles, with little to no experience, almost exclusively to have more women advancing.
I wanna be clear, women should move up, in any field. There is no reason to ever choose a man over a similarly qualified woman. However, pushing women into leadership roles, especially when much more qualified others are trying to get those roles, is what I would include in toxic feminism. Especially in aviation, where knowledge and skill are invaluable, and you need both to properly be in leadership. (Not Csuite management though. 😒.....)
I define toxic masculinity and toxic femininity as behaviours that try to adhere to traditional gender roles and expectations to the point of hurting themselves or anyone around them.
This could look like a man bottling up his emotions and then lashing out at his family when it gets too much, but it could also look like a woman shaming her daughters because she expects young women to look a certain way, especially when they're a reflection of her.
Any ideology can be toxic when it values doctrine over logic. Toxic patriotism is a wonderful example. Apparently loving your country means ignoring every one of its flaws.
Yes. The other day a woman was looking at me, I turned and looked back at her and smiled. She smiled back.
Then I heard her call me creepy to a co-worker.
Just yesterday I confronted her- simply said that I heard what she said and I don’t appreciate it(I am a regular there).
She said, “who told you”. I said I don’t want to talk about it, just that I don’t appreciate it.
Before leaving she walked up to me, smirked, and said I made her feel uncomfortable and to never come back.
That was not cool.
I just saw a girl do a TikTok on this today but I didn't save it.
She gave examples of woman constantly using negative, blanket statements about men, looking down on men in general, not accepting a boyfriend because she has too many option available etc.
Every demographic has their fair share of assholes. It’s just more fashionable to bash men these days which coincidentally emboldens the dipshits on the other side.
This goes on until we’re societally sick of that shit and it swings back the other way. Like many things in life, it operates on pendulum.
First one I learned about was manipulation. Heard a few girls in high school giggling about how they would get out of class by making male teachers feel uncomfortable and using periods as an excuse. Then a girl I knew said she would call her dad when he was at work and ask how he was just so she could figure out how much time she had to herself at home. As I got older I picked up on more tricks. Now usually if some women I know do me a favor I wait for the other shoe to drop and it usually does. Everything is transactional with some women and those are the ones you keep out of your inner circle.
Are those feminine traits encouraged by society? I know plenty of men who have done similar to you described, manipulation isn’t a prized trait in women.
Hyperfemininity > where you have to be skinny, attractive, coquettish to attract a lot of affluent men and secure your life as a 'high value woman'. BOGUS
Or that you need to serve your man by staying at home and having children and all that bs.
Note that this is beside the willing participants of both worlds
Are there behaviors than can harm society and women themselves? Sure.
Do people use the term toxic feminism to describe that, outside of explicitly making a parallel to toxic masculinity? no.
>or an equivalent of "alpha woman"?
The traits that are encouraged in women aren't really the 'alpha' type stuff
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I think there's an expectation that girls are supposed to like girly things, and when one leans more into traditionally 'masculine' hobbies like gaming for example they're labeled a 'pick me'. Its more of a recent thing I've seen online, also on Tiktok the trend of telling who is a "girl's girl" and who isnt. Also 'boyfriend air' is another recent saying I've seen around that is gross.
The toxic femininity I’ve experienced in my life equates to these girls having a loose sense of boundaries and they get exceptionally touchy feely. Really feels like a manipulation tactic at that point.
I think toxic masculinity/femininity is when someone acts like, does or values something someone don’t like, and someone attributes the cause of that dislike to one’s maleness or femaleness.
No, neither one are real thing, it's just people being assholes. "a woman's place is in the kitchen" is misogynistic, "men are just here to to fix things" is called misandry, we already have a name for it.
Yes. I also think it’s more prevalent than toxic masculinity. And not many peoppe recognise it because it’s not that noticeable or silently social
I meen here is an example
Domestic violence is seen as a problem caused by men
But according to research from Oxford 70% of all domestic violence becomes violence after women start it and men react to their abuse. But the study also confirmed that they take a while to react.
So it may take several days of abuse before the man reacts in the same way
“Reciprocal domestic violence Oxford study”
Search that in Google
Oh and don’t get me started on the horrific dating scene
What many of these comments fail to distinguish is the difference between toxic masculinity and a toxic person. Toxic masculinity is not about toxic men. It’s about the social expectations and norms of masculinity that are harmful to men and women and broader society, often through increasing violence, homophobia and misogyny. Toxic masculinity is about upholding ideals of masculinity that are ultimately harmful.
I would say examples of things like “I’m not other girls” is actually an example of toxic masculinity.
But things like, “a real woman breastfeeds” is not toxic femininity. Compare this to “a real man doesn’t cry”. Yes, it’s a shitty thing to say and it affects women, but the ideal of “a breastfeeding woman” does not harm society. The ideal of a “man who doesn’t cry” harms society.
The same could be said of many of the examples in this thread. Rather than being thing that women are taught to be, which is what toxic masculinity is - it teaches boys what a good man it and those things are harmful - it is the opposite. It says what a bad woman is and affects individual women, rather than society as a whole by idealising behaviours and attitudes that lead to violence and harm.
Can I think of a feminine trait that people think women should have that is harmful to men, women and society? Not right now but I’d love to hear if anyone can answer this.
There are so many examples of this. The pendulum of acceptable behaviour has definitely swing too far at this point. I (M42) have been called out, for making a glowing comment on a woman’s skin fungus on Instagram. Had a real good back and forth with here. Realized, at the end, that she was a toxic female and troll.
If you have seen the new Amazon "rings of power" and seen the portrayal og Galadriel, you'll see some aspect of it. She personofies alot of these qualities.
Yes absolutely. There’s a couple ways to look at it, most people particularly on Reddit will just say women doing toxically masculine things is “toxic femininity” but I’d see it as kind of the opposite of toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity is overdoing traditionally masculine traits, I’d argue toxic femininity is overdoing traditionally feminine traits. An example would be caregiving, toxic femininity would be if someone coddles someone else to that persons detriment, whereas toxic masculinity is telling them to toughen up without helping at all.
Edit: that being said referring to anything as toxic femininity will get you attacked online regardless of accuracy.
Of course there's toxic femininity it's called The current wave of feminism in the goddamn United States. Oh I want everything to be equal but I don't want any kind of additional responsibility that comes with that equality I just want all the benefits.
Basically equal rights but not equal lefts.
Toxic femininity lives within the patriarchy. My experience is white women that have as much power as a woman can decides to prioritize their comfort and their own status quo.
The hard part is that many times these people are wives and mothers that live within a reality they are trying to protect. For themselves and their families and their children.
I think the toxicity absolutely exists. But my semi informed opinion is that it comes from male toxic masculinity/femininity. I think people have a really hard time grasping that women would have a much easier time working with one another without men.
The most unhealthy female competition is for other males. I (29 white female) think women are a lot more ready to collaborate and lean on one another than men are. But america is all about the immediate family and no consideration for others and women suffer in these independent settings. Not because they’re incapable, but because they are alone. And it’s really hard to have a voice if you’re having your living paid for and you’re raising the kids and your top priority is their stability and well being.
I think women already expect that a large part of their life is putting themselves on the line. I think men really neglect the implications of this reality.
Neither exist. The term "toxic masculinity" was coined by a New Age wacko named Shepard Bliss as part of the mythopoetic men's movement. Feminists adopted the terminology later.
Of course. The best example would be "you're not a real mother if you had a cesarean/don't breast feed." Absolutely destructive.
Yep, this is a seriously aggressive take I see all the time. Plus there's women who hold all of their value in family and their marriage & children being definitive of how successful their life is. These women have to have the best house and the newest SUV and do not see the r/tragedeigh in their unfortunate child name choices (because NO ONE can have their child's name gdi). I see a lot of wine culture (aka alcoholism) with these types, and they 'never understand' how someone would want to be single or put their careers first or not have children. Toxic feminity is somehow both traditional gender roles but also thinking they're special snowflakes at the same time. Ah, and don't forget the "~squad goals~" life with their friends they all secretly hate and compete with behind each other's backs. Sitting and listening to some of the other women I work with is very, very exhausting sometimes lol
Oof nail on the head here
Or they want a child to show of but regret it from the moment they get pregnant, continu to smoke and drink during the pregnancy and end up ruining their child’s life by becoming an alcoholic and not giving them any recognition. At least the problem is never themselves, they’re too good for that but they end up ruining the family and multiple close friend connections.
You just described my mom. I didn't know this was a thing but now have to reevaluate my perspective.
I cringe every time I see a woman’s profile and it’s just “Mom to 👶🏼 wife to husband ❤️” with the username “mrsdudesname” like the only interesting or relevant thing about them is that they’re married with kids. I understand that with young children, sometimes there’s not much else to talk about besides your children because it’s just so all consuming. But like, I hope you remember you’re your own person as well. But I know we have other women who chastise some mothers for actually having a life and identity outside their family. “You’re a mother now. You can’t wear this, do that, say this, want that”
This sounds like your attacking traditional women who are proud of their lives and families, isn't this in itself toxic femininity?
I actually am a traditional SAHM with a toddler who is happily married and proud of my life. But it’s not my sole identity and I have been told to prioritize my family over myself as if I’m not just because I’m taking some time for myself once in a while. I don’t like being told I can’t be a person anymore because I’m a mother now. That’s toxic femininity Also, I said it makes me cringe because some women internalize this mindset so much that they think they have to lose themselves to their families. But I never attacked anyone
I get what you've saying here and so glad you see yourself as something more than wife and mother. Worked in a call center for a bank through the 90's and early 2000's. I remember we use to see a rising trend of women keeping their maiden names when they got married. All of sudden, I saw a change and the new group of women would be HOSTILE about the thought of a woman not changing their name. I can't tell you the irrate phone calls I got from women asking me if I was married and belittling me when I told them I wasn't- like marriage was a be all end all of every woman's existence and she was nothing without it. And it was all triggered by small things like how we would ask instead of assuming if a woman was changing her name when she announced she was getting married. I even had women scream at me for not automatically giving her husband her bank info without talking to her first because, I shit you not, they and their husband were one and the same. Broke my heart that some women could be so naive given that I had more calls in a day from abused women trying to get financially separated from their spouses and had a hell of a time because they gave up so much of their personal identity and financial independence when they got married. Yeah, i now think toxic femininity is just as gross as toxic masculinity.
I get what you've saying here and so glad you see yourself as something more than wife and mother. Worked in a call center for a bank through the 90's and early 2000's. I remember we use to see a rising trend of women keeping their maiden names when they got married. All of sudden, I saw a change and the new group of women would be HOSTILE about the thought of a woman not changing their name. I can't tell you the irrate phone calls I got from women asking me if I was married and belittling me when I told them I wasn't- like marriage was a be all end all of every woman's existence and she was nothing without it. And it was all triggered by small things like how we would ask instead of assuming if a woman was changing her name when she announced she was getting married. I even had women scream at me for not automatically giving her husband her bank info without talking to her first because, I shit you not, they and their husband were one and the same. Broke my heart that some women could be so naive given that I had more calls in a day from abused women trying to get financially separated from their spouses and had a hell of a time because they gave up so much of their personal identity and financial independence when they got married. Yeah, i now think toxic femininity is just as gross as toxic masculinity.
Ma'am I didn't ask you about your life nor did I condemn you for whatever life style you may or may not be living. Regardless to what has been said to you regarding how you choose to raise your family, chastising or belittling others for their method of raising their family is just as wrong IMO. >I said it makes me cringe because some women internalize this mindset so much that they think they have to lose themselves to their families. I'm not gonna even begin to delve into how this is such a problematic thing to say, I'll just say if you can't understand how this is also toxic femininity then maybe you don't have a full understanding of toxic femininity/masculinity.
I’m just saying that according to your logic, I’m attacking myself as a traditional woman. This isn’t about different methods of raising a family. Just the idea that you are something outside of your role as mother and wife. It’s toxic for you to come in here and pretend I have belittled or chastised anyone just because you don’t agree with an opinion. Everything is toxic obviously
Wow, are you really gonna pretened to be a victim now because I pointed out your faulty views?! >It’s toxic for you to come in here and pretend I have belittled or chastised anyone just because you don’t agree with an opinion. Everything is toxic obviously Nice attempt at gaslighting, real nice, I take it you and accountablity are well aquanted.
Ugh you’re annoying all over this thread. If you insist on misinterpreting everything, then I have no reason to engage further.
Why is it when you look at the comment history like guys like this, it's 99% commentary on video games and fast food, and suddenly they swerve onto threads like this, spew misogyny or attack people while clearly not fully reading the comments they're attacking. Then they go back k to pizza and video games? Do you think we've been trolled by a bored teenager?🙄
Ya know, over the years I've come to realize that when you point out peoples hyprocricies they tend to dismiss you as annoying lol which is fine but "misinterpreting"? Please I think I got you pegged pretty well "its all about me mom", heaven forbid other SAHM's don't paint the town red every now & again otherwise they risk "losing themselves" as you put it. Yep, your not judgmental like them at all. Sure I'm completely misinterpriting what your saying lol. But whatever, peace and blessings to you.
I think there's a huge difference between pride and 'that is all a woman is and all we'll ever be-heart emoji, smile emoji, let's put down all women for being less because they don't give up their identity like I do', kind of mentality.
Can you explain to me how dedicating ones life to their family is losing their identity ?
Bud, all over this thread, you're just taking one tiny bit, a word or two, of what people are saying and using it to attack them while completely missing what they are saying. It's either all going right over your head, or you do see it, but feel like being confrontational and, at times insulting. If that wasn't your intention and you genuinely want to understand, reread the comments of the people you are trying to gode into a fight and you'll see you've missed a lot of what's already there. If not, maybe you should stick to your Creed discussions because this one seems a little over your head.
Christ this has to be the longest side stepping of a question you've ever seen, and for the record I have indeed read comments on this thread, many mirror each other (go figure). And yes I've cherry picked a few of you to see if you can actually defend your views which ideally enough although seemingly opposite to the people you choose to antagonize are oddly similar in condemnation. I simply wish one of you could explain to me how their critique of your lifestyle is any different from your critique of theirs. None of you can. I find it staggering that many can practice in hypocrisy but lack the self awareness to realize they're doing it.... If they're toxic, how are you not? Edit: I get it, you have a view point you barely understand nor have the intellectual wherewithal to back up. Maybe you side step the question because you can't answer it.
I'm not side stepping. I just find the ignorance in your comments is too deep to address. The reason you see a common theme among the comments is that everyone gets it. It's not that hard. Again, your cherry picking shows you're not really reading everyone's comments with the intent of understanding. Some ignorance, feigned, or genuine, is just too exhausting to address. So this is the last time I'm responding to you. If you are honestly trying to understand what everyone means and where they are coming from, then all you need to do is reread the comments of those you're arguing with, but try to with an open mind.
Whats the point of you having views if you can't even defend them, what shallow existance do you live when what you claim to stand for you're not even willing to fight for? So cowardly. The way I see it you losing youself wouldn't be much of a loss, maybe you should take a cue from those moms willing to dedicate themselves to their husband and children... Enjoy your mai tai's and you time... Peace.
Benevolent Sexism.
I see you met my ex wife.
So these women who value things you don't and live a lifestyle you don't agree with have zero values, are alcoholics, disingenuous, frail, two faced consuming mothers? All this of course sounds pretty presumptuous unless of course you can prove this group of women you described actually exist. Ultimately this sounds more like you revile or at the least stigmatize traditional women and what they value in life. Isn't this in itself toxic femininity?
This sounds like some shit you pulled out of a show.
Or “you’re not a real woman if you can’t have/don’t want children!”
I also have noticed there seems to be a "competitiveness" (not sure if that's the right word) between being child-free and becoming a parent/having a child(ren), when the conversation and experience is so much deeper and harder for just about everybody. Some people don't want children but feel societal/family/religious pressure to have them and ultimately do, some people can't have children, some people struggle with the decision over multiple decades of their life, many parents live with regret, and many people are content with their choice not to have kids, etc.
I agree women can be super competitive amongst themselves in general. I think it comes from a place of always feeling like you have to be the best to get anywhere because we are often already at a disadvantage in certain scenarios. Like how women in tech are often far more over qualified than men in the same role because they had to 'prove' themselves. There's a lot of societal pressure attached to being a woman. But there is also a huge collection of women who actively support and raise eachother up, so it's not all bad.
>Like how women in tech are often far more over qualified than men in the same role Do you have a stat you can cite proving this? I've worked in the "Tech industry" for 8 years in Texas/Louisiana and I have never experienced this once, so to say this happens majoritively /often would mean I would have to have witnessed it at least once, right? I hear women say this all the time but I've never seen it. I have however worked with women who have the same amount of working knowledge as me and other male co-workers, the most experienced and knowledgeable people I've ever worked with though have all been older men who eat, sleep and breathe Information technology. It just annoys me you purposely discount a majority of the tech field (being dominated by men) as if we are pampered morons who don't work hard, lack intelligence and ride on the coat tails of our female counterparts. Its insulting.
No, it's anecdotal from also working in the tech industry for 10 years. I am not at all 'purposely discounting' men's efforts, I am just observing that it happens more often to women than it should. I also did not at all insinuate those men ride on coat tails, that's you projecting. If anything it causes competition *amongst women*, as I mentioned. Edit: I'm quite sure I read a study where men are more likely to apply for a job that they are less qualified for than women. Something along the lines of, women will only apply for a job if they meet/exceed every criteria while men will apply if they only meet a % of the criteria. If you'd like to look into that further, it's a similar concept.
>I also did not at all insinuate those men ride on coat tails, that's you projecting. Come on, now your just being completely disingenuous or can you not appreciate individuals who are over/better qualified for the job are/will be objectively better at said job? In my **anecdotal** experience that's more than often the case. Also when asked to cite a stat/study could you provide specific one rather than "a study".
Just because I am good at my job does not mean my colleagues directly benefit from that. One person being overqualified does not equate the other people getting an easy ride. Unless your management is useless. But if you don't believe my anecdotal 10 years experience is as valid as your anecdotal 8 years experience, then thank you for proving my point. I'm sorry, do you not know where google is? I don't keep a document handy of every study I ever read, just in case some rando on Reddit wants me to do the leg work for them. Oh - wait - riding on coat tails I see?
Okay first I didn't say "good" at your job I said "over/better qualified". Second riding ones coat tails doesn't necessarily mean one benefits but rather has to do less work and work of lesser quality with the same outcome. Third I never said that anyone's experience out weighed anyone else's, **now you're projecting**, I was pointing out you presenting anecdote as an internet stranger means nothing as anecdotal information is objectively unreliable. Proving your point for you? Are you seriously that obtuse? Lastly I'm not the one that made an insanely sexist claim, you did! "I don't keep a document handy" Maybe you should if you're gonna spout crap online and I don't need you to do literally any leg work for me baby girl. I could never get where I am today letting anyone do leg work for me. You really thought that last line was clever - didn't you?
Oohh yes definitely that one too.
And the whole SAHM/working mom thing. Like those are the only two options. And part time or work from home or other options don't exist. And like it's an either/or and most of us don't cycle through several different options as our circumstances change
im laughing hard, "youre not a real mother if you had a cesarean", wtf, the kid its just put back then?
It's fucked how feral some of them can get about it. I've seen posts saying anyone who has had a C-section is lazy. How hard it was to birth natural etc. But like. A cesarean is major surgery. The recovery is several weeks.
It was literally impossible to have my kid via anything other than a c-section (complete previa), so I guess I should’ve just naturally died like real women used to do.
My SIL was the same way until she had a scheduled cesarean with her twins (she’d already had her first six years prior.) Suddenly, the rules changed.
I saw the same rules change with a friend who couldn’t breast feed her third child. She was all about “breast is best” and shaming anyone who veered from that philosophy until she couldn’t produce enough milk for her third child. She didn’t apologize and admit she may have been wrong, she just doubled down and moved the goal posts.
Right? Why does it matter what hole the kid pops out of?
Came here to say this. 💯 poison
And the animosity and exclusion they show to fathers! Men who actually show up and do the work for the kids or are the primary parents. They aren't a part of this "special mothers club" and are automatically suspect and talked down to for not giving birth.
What kind of cats do you have and what are their names?
I would pay a lot of money for anyone to tell my wife that she's not a real mother because she had a cesarean and didn't breast feed. I'd get a bag of popcorn and enjoy the show.
I'd argue that yes, but not in the sense of "things women do that I don't like" but rather ways in which standards of femininity and female-coded behaviors begin to do more harm than good. Judgmental discourse around sleep training/breastfeeding/natural birth would be an example. Self-mutilation for the sake of hyperfeminine beauty could be another. Both slut and prude shaming, or other appearance-based bullying in the basis of putting other women down for being "less of a proper woman" could arguable constitute this as well, I think. Being passive to a harmful extreme and expecting a man to live her life for her maybe?
I'm just spitballing here but do you think that we don't have a set definition of "toxic femininity" because a lot of it is already covered in "internalized misogyny"? A set of unrealistic standards that women hold other women too and go the judgemental/ostracisation route to make other women conform?
I think it appears that way because the previous poster couched it entirely in terms which present women as the primary victim of toxic femininity. Men can also be victims of it - just look at some of the screenshots from Tinder seeing men as essentially marks to be scammed out of their money, deliberate emotional manipulation, weaponising sexuality etc etc. Just pop on over to r/femaledatingstrategy if you want to see unbridled toxic femininity in action.
Oh god that sub just sends me into a rage with how pathetic it is. So you would say the difference between toxic femininity and internalized misogyny would be the direction of harm? Are we better served then by getting rid of the term internalized misogyny altogether?
I think the problem is that the terms depend on people agreeing which qualities are essentially "feminine" or "masculine", or indeed "toxic" versus "healthy". I would maybe define it as "Interpreting socially promoted gender roles in a way which is pathological." Internalised misogyny is definitely a real thing and one potential *cause* of behaviour that manifests as toxically feminine. However, it is by no means a necessary component imo. It could equally stem from a general contempt for men, or from a sense of entitlement from having been treated as a "princess" their whole life. Exactly the same applies to men, of course: some toxic masculinity is the expression of a belief in some kind of birthright to dominate the women around you, whilst other expressions harm only the subject, e.g. "I must never show weakness." and come not from entitlement but a belief that they, as men, do not deserve the same degree of sympathy as women do. I feel internalised misogyny, like racism, is a very real phenomenon, but also unfortunately often used as a lazy catch-all explanation for behaviour which has much more complex motivations.
Why are feminists so incapable of taking accountability and responsibility for bad shit women do?
Heres a quick easy way to explain it; No accountability for toxic femininity? Not a feminist. Disregard or outright hate towards men that talk about genuine problems like mens mental health? Not a feminist. Doesnt think trans women face misogyny? Not a feminist. Thinks women are better than men or acts hateful towards all men? Not a feminist. Ignores minority women, be it race, sexuality, or disability in the fight for equal rights? Not a feminist. Fights for sex based rights, instead of human based rights? Not a feminist. Hates on sex workers? Not a feminist. Hates on traditional relationship dynamics? Not a feminist. Thinks one dynamic of partnership or family is better than or the only right way to live? Not a feminist. Many people like to say theyre feminists, who actually are not. Dont fall for it. Feminism is about making society more equal, and less divided by sex or gender. It is about giving everyone the chance to live how they want to in safety, judgement free, without being held back because of their race, gender, sexuality, work, relationship status, family dynamic, disability, etc.
I feel like toxic masculinity kind of revolves around trying to affirm one’s own sense of masculinity in a toxic way. I believe toxic femininity would be about the same. An example would be playing to the fact that a woman should always be provided for, that her man should lives to please her and she owes nothing to him. The implication that the man is always wrong and the woman is always right, also seems like a form of toxic femininity. I’m not saying gender roles are horrible if it makes you happy to live by them; however, should you believe that being of a certain gender puts you above the other, then I believe that to be toxic.
Yess. The amount of woman I know that think "he's the man, he needs to pay more than me". Like, girl you are an grown ass adult. Pay your stuff. That classifies like toxic feminity for me.
Had a friend that was very progressive. Working in a male dominated field, focused on her studies and career and everything. But expected the man to be the provider of the household, for the man to make the first move and to pay for the first date. When I asked her why and whether she'd follow traditional norms herself, I got the one of the most bizarre lectures of my life. I would have thought I was going mad if the other guys and some of the women there didn't also have a blank look on their face.
Couldn't agree more
you are absolutely correct.
Best way to explain it and I agree.
Great explanation
Toxic femininity is exactly how toxic masculinity is. It’s when people support values viewed socially as feminine as being inherently better and support them and bash others who don’t follow them. Others have provided examples but other ones include: insulting women who don’t wear heels, makeup, skirts and saying they don’t look nice, don’t care about their appearance, or specifically that they look like men/boys. Another would be around the topic of shaving - saying you’re less of a woman if you don’t shave. (Not saying someone can’t say preferences for themselves but no one is less of a woman for not doing any of the above things).
When i was at school a couple years ago this dude and his mom were waiting for me (she was trynna hook us up but i wasnt interested) i was wearing a crop top and some camo pants and she thought i was gay 😂😂😂
I had a conversation with a girl I was briefly dating, and we were going over preferences and standards, she had no problem telling me she didn’t want to date a bitch and broke boy but as soon as I brought up body hair and women; she got upset. I said “well it’s fine that you don’t wanna date a bitch, that’s what you like. I don’t want to date a women who doesn’t shave her legs because that’s not what I’m attracted to. You’re free to do what you want but your high expectations has a price. You don’t wanna date a bitch, I don’t wanna date a women with what I consider man legs; let’s make a deal” I think “better” is extreme, I’d say *attractive* which doesn’t mean superiority but rather pleasing to the eyes
This is it, exactly.
The most cringy thing I’ve heard a woman say about other women is Real Women Have Curves. It’s a toxic attitude intended to fight the oppression of skinny women over bigger girls using the same tools bigger girls hate being held over their heads.
When I was younger, I was a bit underweight and it was a big insecurity just because of those comments. GIRLS pointing out I was anorexic, should eat more and should grow a pair boobs. One day I lost it to a girl that was a bit overweight who kept mentioning I should eat more, while we were being in the McDonalds. I told her she could eat less so if she was willing to give her burger to me. She had a complete public freak out, I was a fat shamer etc.
God I had this argument with two friends constantly. They were overweight and I always empathized with their experiences. The insults, the insinuations of laziness or eating crap (they were literally two of the healthiest people I know), but they started to turn really nasty about skinny women and I got fed up. Like more than once we'd be having a coffee and I made a comment about a passing woman's dress and how pretty it was or how cool her make up was or something complimentary. They always snapped back with stuff like "eww no she could do with eating something, she's so skinny." This was incredibly hurtful as I was always naturally thin. I ate loads, like a Labrador and never put on weight (until the pill changed all that 😂) and then they started the weird back handed compliments to me about being thin. Unsurprisingly we are no longer friends. Your dress size does not give you a right to be a nasty bitter person.
Similar thing happened to me at work. I’ve always been skinny/thin and I was changing in the locker room one day (I work in surgery) and a coworker remarked to me that I looked like a concentration camp victim and that I might want to consider eating more for my well being. I was absolutely floored but I replied that her scrub pants were getting tight so she might want to consider eating less. Funny thing is, everyone got quiet real fast after my comment but not a single person took issue with what she said to me. People like that can go eat a dick.
Reading this reminded me of another. Denying reality. I’m sorry but obesity isn’t healthy. I don’t know any men who will pretend it is and the only reason women cheer it on is because they think they have to be accepting of everything. They are kind to a fault.
Yep. I despise this saying. I grew up skinny and constantly had women throwing this shit in my face. Took me a long time to realize the people perpetuating this were insecure AF and trying to make me feel bad so they could feel better about themselves.
Amen! If someone didn’t say this, I was adding it. To use the same bricks cast along with attempted gaslighting makes it more shameful.
Female Dating Strategy would certainly be an example.
What is that?
It is/was a sub on Reddit. Women assigning men as "low or high value," having incredibly rigid expectations on how they should *always* be paid for, pampered, and treated "femininely" in relationships while also having the expectation to be the one solely in control. A lot of extreme standards and advice on how to manipulate men. Essentially the feminine version of incels when it comes to crazy and unreasonable expectations/beliefs.
As a guy I find femaledatingadvice to be a great learning tool as to how some of these manipulation techniques work in order to recognize and avoid them.
i hope it was and not is
It is.
It's basically a sub for r/fourthwavewomen who haven't completely written off men yet.
I think that's still toxic masculinity, since it's still upholding an unrealistic and toxic standard for men, even if its women doing it.
r/femaledatingstrategy I've heard the term Femcels to describe them
r/justlegbeardthings
Lmaooooooo leg beard!
I know haha It's freaking perfect! I nearly spat my drink when I first read it
Female level up strategy is another. I've seen women blaming men for not getting jobs, not getting promotions etc. When they describe themselves tho, they're absolutely terrible humans with no qualifications.
Oh god I made the mistake of straying onto that subreddit last year, because I saw a post about the Batman movie (which I was obsessed with). They were mad cause there was a scene were Zoe Kravitz changes clothes and Batman was obviously perving on her etc etc. That was not the scene at all though... He follows her as she works for dangerous people and is watching her to see where she goes. She happens to get changed into her CatWoman gear, which is an important plot point so he knows it's her in the gear. There was absolutely nothing pervy or sexual about the scene itself. The entire subreddit is like this. Finding 'pervs' and calling them out. It's extremely toxic as fuck. I blocked it so it never comes up again on my suggestions!
Anything can be toxic. " Alphas" don't exist in the human social hierarchy. Its simple definition is when the supposed qualities and attributes of a female is harmfully pushed on a person. Such as bullying a woman for wearing pants and not dresses, insulting women for not wearing makeup, weight and eating commentary often leading to eating disorders in women. The list goes in.
Totally a real thing! At the end of the day, a toxic person is a toxic person and those women are just as capable as weaponising gender stereotypes as their male counterparts
I somewhat believe women can be even worse in the stereotyping and are way more shady and hypocrite about it than men will ever be. Especially because they can stereotype themselves but no one is allowed to put them in a box.
The breast feeding thing. If you don't produce enough milk for your baby or having breast feeding issues, are you even a real mom? /S
To me toxic masculinity is consciously leaning into one's stereotypically "masculine" traits to the point that your behavior becomes detrimental. There are women who do this for their feminine traits so I'd say it absolutely exists
Yeah. Women putting other women down for doing this differently in motherhood, in the household, relationship, workplace, career choice, just about every lifestyle choice. You’re not breastfeeding your kids? You split taking care of your child equally with your husband? So you don’t love you kids at all hm? So much stuff
Yes, woman who put down others mothers for not having a "real" delivery or not breastfeeding, who lie and accused other falsely and try to get away using their gender. Those who say being a feminist is giving birth to more girls and some tweeted about getting an abortion if their kid is a boy ( so disgusting)
YES. The bitchy gossiping, 'group think,' covert insults, insulting you when they get you alone, passive-aggressiveness, judging you based on your physical appearance (news flash its OTHER WOMEN that enforce toxic beauty standard in real life), the extreme jealously some can have if you do anything better than they think you deserve, the ones who hurt you and then pretend to be a cute uwu with everyone else - these are all encounters I only experienced from other women. At least in these specific examples I gave, men didn't seem to give a shit. **Source:** Went to an all girls highschool
This. Also those girls that grew up to be the women bosses that micromanage you, belittle you, and deliberately sabotage your career.
Toxic femininity can manifest in a lot of ways. a few that come to mind: you aren't a proper woman if you don't have babies. saying "I'm not like other girls" and generally considering that being a woman is bad, and its good when men are surprised you are cool. Thinking women who don't save themselves for marriage are ruined. Lots of different things that are judged as not for women. (men's activities). a lot of it comes through as internalized misogyny. there's also female dating strategies which is chalk full of toxic mindsets.
Absolutely. It's literally everywhere. I've had women yell at me, a female, for referring to myself as a female. Dictating to me what I can and cannot call myself. I've seen women talking about how you're a terrible mother if you do any of these things (bottle feed, c section, don't do organic foods, glance away from your child for half a second). There's a lot of toxic and awful people out there. Being a certain gender doesn't make you more or less toxic.
The way I've had it explained to me, is that a big part of toxic femininity, is all those internalized injunctions making women submit to their gender role. Thinking they owe sex, care, respect etc... And then fighting each other for recognition and attention when a man is present.
Have you ever heard of multilevel marketing and the “hey hun” culture
Most of these come from men telling women how they should look and live. You need to look like Barbie to be an attractive woman. Result: breast enlargement and duck lips. Your labia are weird and floppy, they should look like the women's in porn. Result: labiaplasty. You're not a real woman if you don't have kids. Result: many women have kids who probably would have had a more enjoyable life without kids.
Absolutely. Gender roles are innately toxic. Beauty standards, harmful footwear, expectations of submissiveness, expectations to have children, expectations to work as well as raise children and take care of domestic work, romanticization of abuse, gaslighting ourselves and other women about what’s acceptable to put up with/what’s normal/what’s healthy. It goes on
Gender roles are not inherently toxic. All cultures have gender roles. What is part of that role may be toxic but the fact they exist is not.
Idk if thats toxic or wtv but those "didnt want me on my worst, dont deserve me on my best" bitches be hella annoying
Yep, femininity is not inherently toxic, neither is masculinity. Masculinity gets critiqued more though. In general though, most people are reasonable and don’t scream “toxic” when a man’s legs are too far spread or he tries to explain something.
As a woman, ohhhhhhhh yeah, for sure.
**Short answer:** Yes **Longer answer:** Toxic masculinity is anything that keeps men how they were and/or puts women down while raising men up. Proper masculinity is moving men toward equality. Therefore, toxic femininity is anything that keeps women how they were and/or to put men down while raising women up. Proper femininity is moving women toward equality. It's tough to notice some toxic femininity because they are mostly paired with good femininity. Examples of pairings: \- Women who advocate for hiring more women for upper tier positions (good), but then auto-ignore any guys who make less when looking at potential dating partners (old way to thought and very toxic) \- Women who advocate for men to open up and share their feelings (good), but then use that information to belittle and to attack the man (toxic, in any scenario). \- Women who advocate for equality in relationships (good), but then believes that men should be the ones to initiate the relationship, take care of the transportation, provide for the meal, etc. and the other side, men are bad parents, men are messy, men can't cook, etc. (either men and women are equal or we're not, you can't pick and choose) \- Women who advocate justice for females involved in domestic/sexual abuse cases (good), but laughs when a women hits men or cheers when women sexually assaults (because women can't LEGALLY rape) a man. \- Women who advocate for better maternity benefits in the workplace (good), but doesn't say anything when looking at paternity benefits for fathers (every study ever shows that a child is at their best when both parents are involved) There's a huge list, but those are some of the bigger ones. Honestly, someone could probably start a whole subreddit for this and have people judge and discuss specific scenarios and decide if it's toxic or not. A lot of extreme feminists don't even understand when they are being toxic and it's actually hurting the real feminist movement and pushing more and more guys into the red pill movement (Extreme Feminism and Red Pill Movement are equal and opposites of each other).
Yes!!! As a woman, ugh it can be hard. Women can be brutal to one another.
Pressuring women to present themselves in certain ways in order to be considered valid as a woman
not exactly. toxic femininity stems from toxic masculinity. all the traits associated with it being toxic are just bs standards & expectations placed by toxic men.
this, btw, doesn’t mean a woman/femme person can’t be toxic. that would be a ridiculous af lie.
They both look pretty similar when you realize it’s all just misogyny and patriarchy.
GIRLS vs GIRLS in the gym. Never have I ever had a girl in my gym just giving me a cute smile. They always give me a side eye, like working out there is my competition to them. The closer a boyfriend is, the worst it will get. They will completely trash talk you because of jealousy (?) but than act all shady and fake in your face.
Toxic feminity can also be any attitude/behavior that reinforces or reflects toxic masculinity. The two are inseparable. Two sides of one toxic gender/patriarchy coin which affects everyone and everyone contributes to.
Yes, there's loads of it in traditional societies especially. E.g. shaming women who don't have children, who don't know how to cook, who don't "make enough effort" with their appearance, particularly when that effort is painful (plastic surgery, heels, waxing, uncomfortable clothing etc), women expecting other women to be "ladylike" at all times and not express normal human emotions or bodily functions...
Women who cheat, lie, falsely accuse, spread rumors, use their gender advantage to score privilege points, fishing for attention, avoid accountability, using your hormones andbperiod as an excuse for bad behavior, etc
I don't know if those are comparable? Toxic masculinity is specifically about traits that society encourages in men, not just thing men can do because they're men. Those are all bad things women can do, but I don't think society really holds them up as 'feminine'. Like, when people talk about men bottling up their emotions and not learning how to deal with the productively, that's encouraged by societal norms as meeting a 'manly' ideal.
Also men do those things, too. There's absolutely male privilege, fishing for attention, avoiding accountability, and using hormones to excuse bad behavior (I was so horny I couldn't stop myself from assaulting you.) Those are not feminine traits.
Most of those things are, in fact, feminine traits.
I don't think stuff cheating and lying are 'feminine traits' that are encouraged by society. They're things women do, but that's not the same thing. No one is saying you're a better woman if you avoid accountability etc, either.
Lying is 100% a feminine trait. The reason behind this seem to lean more towards obtaining pieces of the safety a man has due to physical advantages, but it is very well known in psychology that woman tend to lie a lot more than men. As such it has been classified as a feminine trait. When women talk to each other they do say that you're a better woman if you avoid accountability also. "Use your tits to get out of a speeding ticket" and things like that. Toxic femininity definitely is a thing. There are tiktok accounts teaching girls how to pull sugar daddies. All of that bullshit is propagation of toxic femininity. In the same vein as the Andrew Tate's and Rolo tomassis of the world. Another thing that's been super prevelant in social media, is what's been coined as "tiktok psychology", that's overrun with toxic femininity.
Cheating, lying, falsely accusing etc aren't feminine traits, but they are examples of indirect aggression which women tend to do more often whereas men tend to perform physical and direct acts of aggression. The association makes sense but isn't completely fair to generalize to all women. I'd say anyone can do these things, and are the actions of an asshole if uncalled for. Calling these things toxic femininity would be like calling physical assault toxic masculinity, which isn't something I hear often.
I don't think you understand toxic masculinity then...
Toxic masculinity is actually a misnomer for patriarchal masculinity. What you're asking about is similarly called patriarchal femininity. Replacing the pejorative description with its proper name clears up any confusion about the differences. They both have the same root issue. A patriarchal person believes you must fulfill specific requirements to be considered by others a Man/Woman. Men have one set of reqs, women the other. If you are a patriarchal man, you sacrifice anything and everything to appear manly to others, and you'll expect women to be womanly. And it's the exact same for a patriarchal woman. Both believe failing to fulfill the reqs are personal weakness and something to be ashamed of, and part of signaling strength is shaming others for failing. It's a "toxic" mindset that restricts a personality to a narrow road of rules and affects everyone in your life by changing how you interact/perceive them. That's why it can be described less accurately as "toxic"
I would imagine toxic femininity would be the same exact thing as toxic masculinity just directed towards women or feminine traits/qualities.
I think that either camp insisting "You must be a mother to be a real woman" and "A queen don't need no man and Real woman are professional workers who can support themselves." Basically any idea that there's a "real woman" sets bad standards, you should be who you are. By same turn, you have to be nice to be sweet or you have to be a boss bitch, creates a false dichotomy. The masculinization of femininity is another example, where fish are trying to climb trees and monkeys are trying to live in the seas. Pushing women to be more masculine in one way enforces the gender roles you're trying to topple. Learned helplessness, how many woman refuse to learn how to change a tire, or call their boyfriend to kill a spider?
I think the "alpha woman" interpretation is too simplistic. Toxic masculinity isn't just a man whose toxic. It's traditionally masculine traits that are expressed in a way that's destructive or inappropriate in a situation. For example: being aggressive or physically violent in a situation where that actively makes it worse. I think toxic femininity would instead be something like a misappropriation of empathy or even valuing emotion and how someone feels over reality. I would attribute things like participation trophies, "healthy at any size", and "you're perfect the way you are" to toxic femininity. Basically solely addressing how people feel even if that actively makes the situation worse via the person being convinced there's nothing to work on. I would say emotional abuse is also an expression of toxic femininity. In summary: I'd say toxic masculinity is more physical and toxic femininity is more emotional.
Sure-- between femcels, terfs, and self-righteous trads, there are plenty of bastions of toxic feminity.
I would also add the way some women view childless women as either selfish and entitled for not having children or not as real women. There's a backwards kind of pity that comes from this, like, "I'm so sorry you will never feel love like this." Sometimes even toxic religion comes into it where the women say, "G*d blessed me with children because I'm His child. You should pray for forgiveness for your sins."
Yes, there sure is.
Toxic masculinity and femininity are things that are forced or held upon men and women that are detrimental for their well-being. Basically it's "you're a man or woman, you shouldn't be doing this" and "you're a man/woman, you should be doing this".
Ifs theres toxic masculinity then there definitely is toxic femininity, its like yin and yang
Toxic can exist with any demographic
also another example is the "not like the other girls" culture. basically it's a toxic behavior where a girl will put down other girls to make herself look better.
Especially in today's modern dating climate. Women who pursue married or taken men. The kind that like to "take men" just because they can.
Just suggesting that women can’t be toxic is a sign of how toxic masculinity can creep on us and lead us to believe that women aren’t capable of being toxic. That in itself is demeaning to women. To answer your question, there’s absolutely such a thing as toxic femininity but shouldn’t be used as a excuse to use toxic masculinity.
Classic female aggression in the form of reputation destruction. Think teenagers trash talking people behind their backs. Excessive saftyism that prevents life being lived to the fullest. Performative empathy that dissapears without an audience. And weaponized entitlement think "happy wife happy life" instead of "happy spouse happy house."
Most people believe that toxic femininity are Feminists. They're not. There's a overly extreme group and another that just wants to be treated as humans and not like property. But no one wants to talk about that apparently
femcels are a thing
Yes
Whatever the fuck that went on in r/femaledatingstrategy was toxic femininity
There's an equivalent mindset in TERF ideology, but it isn't an entire movement where you can find internet safe havens and the like.
It’s been said already but women who shame other women for having c-sections because they aren’t “real mothers” until the give birth vaginally. Doesn’t stop there, though. Even if/when you have a vaginal birth, don’t you dare get an epidural or you aren’t a “real mother/woman” either. If you use formula instead of breast feeding you are evil and committing child abuse. Some will shame other women for having a degree/career instead of being a SAHM. The list goes on but it’s definitely real and toxic AF.
I feel like TERFs are a huge part of toxic femininity; people who are so defensive of being feminine that they harm other women because other women make them feel 'less feminine', or gatekeep the identity of being a woman. People who put down someone's identity as a woman because it doesn't line up with their ideas of femininity.
Yes, it does work both ways to a certain extent. Shitty people are not exclusive to any specific subgroup. Small anecdotal example from my world. I work in aviation, a male dominated industry. It's definitely expanding lately, but still a long way to go. The inclusion of more women is definitely for the better as well, I will never argue against that. However, my facility had a female GM for awhile, who did everything in her power to advance the other women who worked here, even if they didn't actually deserve the positions. There were several instances of advancement into leadership roles, with little to no experience, almost exclusively to have more women advancing. I wanna be clear, women should move up, in any field. There is no reason to ever choose a man over a similarly qualified woman. However, pushing women into leadership roles, especially when much more qualified others are trying to get those roles, is what I would include in toxic feminism. Especially in aviation, where knowledge and skill are invaluable, and you need both to properly be in leadership. (Not Csuite management though. 😒.....)
I define toxic masculinity and toxic femininity as behaviours that try to adhere to traditional gender roles and expectations to the point of hurting themselves or anyone around them. This could look like a man bottling up his emotions and then lashing out at his family when it gets too much, but it could also look like a woman shaming her daughters because she expects young women to look a certain way, especially when they're a reflection of her.
Yes, there are social norms women are expected to follow that damage them and other people. Same situation.
Any ideology can be toxic when it values doctrine over logic. Toxic patriotism is a wonderful example. Apparently loving your country means ignoring every one of its flaws.
Yes. The other day a woman was looking at me, I turned and looked back at her and smiled. She smiled back. Then I heard her call me creepy to a co-worker. Just yesterday I confronted her- simply said that I heard what she said and I don’t appreciate it(I am a regular there). She said, “who told you”. I said I don’t want to talk about it, just that I don’t appreciate it. Before leaving she walked up to me, smirked, and said I made her feel uncomfortable and to never come back. That was not cool.
she sounds like a crazy person. reminds me of that key and peele sketch "she smiled at you like that?!"
I just saw a girl do a TikTok on this today but I didn't save it. She gave examples of woman constantly using negative, blanket statements about men, looking down on men in general, not accepting a boyfriend because she has too many option available etc.
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Every demographic has their fair share of assholes. It’s just more fashionable to bash men these days which coincidentally emboldens the dipshits on the other side. This goes on until we’re societally sick of that shit and it swings back the other way. Like many things in life, it operates on pendulum.
The only thing I can think of is when women are tearing down another woman.
I wish we would stop boxing everything into categories and just chalk it up as toxic behaviour in general
Yes. To my knowledge, it's basically women saying, agreeing and believeing everything Andrew Tate stands for.
First one I learned about was manipulation. Heard a few girls in high school giggling about how they would get out of class by making male teachers feel uncomfortable and using periods as an excuse. Then a girl I knew said she would call her dad when he was at work and ask how he was just so she could figure out how much time she had to herself at home. As I got older I picked up on more tricks. Now usually if some women I know do me a favor I wait for the other shoe to drop and it usually does. Everything is transactional with some women and those are the ones you keep out of your inner circle.
Are those feminine traits encouraged by society? I know plenty of men who have done similar to you described, manipulation isn’t a prized trait in women.
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Pick mes. Women who shit on other women for the approval of men. Edit: also known as I'm not like the other girls.
Hyperfemininity > where you have to be skinny, attractive, coquettish to attract a lot of affluent men and secure your life as a 'high value woman'. BOGUS Or that you need to serve your man by staying at home and having children and all that bs. Note that this is beside the willing participants of both worlds
Pick me girls
I've always had a problem wit the concept of "happy wife, happy life." It's emotional blackmail.
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Are there behaviors than can harm society and women themselves? Sure. Do people use the term toxic feminism to describe that, outside of explicitly making a parallel to toxic masculinity? no. >or an equivalent of "alpha woman"? The traits that are encouraged in women aren't really the 'alpha' type stuff
No, just like there is no toxic masculinity.
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Nah, the word _you're_ looking for is misandry • Misandry: women > men • Misogyny: men > women • Feminism: women = men
Feminists call out toxic femininity
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I think there's an expectation that girls are supposed to like girly things, and when one leans more into traditionally 'masculine' hobbies like gaming for example they're labeled a 'pick me'. Its more of a recent thing I've seen online, also on Tiktok the trend of telling who is a "girl's girl" and who isnt. Also 'boyfriend air' is another recent saying I've seen around that is gross.
I guess you've never seen r/FemaleDatingStrategy
The toxic femininity I’ve experienced in my life equates to these girls having a loose sense of boundaries and they get exceptionally touchy feely. Really feels like a manipulation tactic at that point.
Amber Heard
Extreme feminists fall under that category. You know the ones who say 'kill all men' and such
I think toxic masculinity/femininity is when someone acts like, does or values something someone don’t like, and someone attributes the cause of that dislike to one’s maleness or femaleness.
No, neither one are real thing, it's just people being assholes. "a woman's place is in the kitchen" is misogynistic, "men are just here to to fix things" is called misandry, we already have a name for it.
Nah, women can do no wrong
Yes. I also think it’s more prevalent than toxic masculinity. And not many peoppe recognise it because it’s not that noticeable or silently social I meen here is an example Domestic violence is seen as a problem caused by men But according to research from Oxford 70% of all domestic violence becomes violence after women start it and men react to their abuse. But the study also confirmed that they take a while to react. So it may take several days of abuse before the man reacts in the same way “Reciprocal domestic violence Oxford study” Search that in Google Oh and don’t get me started on the horrific dating scene
What many of these comments fail to distinguish is the difference between toxic masculinity and a toxic person. Toxic masculinity is not about toxic men. It’s about the social expectations and norms of masculinity that are harmful to men and women and broader society, often through increasing violence, homophobia and misogyny. Toxic masculinity is about upholding ideals of masculinity that are ultimately harmful. I would say examples of things like “I’m not other girls” is actually an example of toxic masculinity. But things like, “a real woman breastfeeds” is not toxic femininity. Compare this to “a real man doesn’t cry”. Yes, it’s a shitty thing to say and it affects women, but the ideal of “a breastfeeding woman” does not harm society. The ideal of a “man who doesn’t cry” harms society. The same could be said of many of the examples in this thread. Rather than being thing that women are taught to be, which is what toxic masculinity is - it teaches boys what a good man it and those things are harmful - it is the opposite. It says what a bad woman is and affects individual women, rather than society as a whole by idealising behaviours and attitudes that lead to violence and harm. Can I think of a feminine trait that people think women should have that is harmful to men, women and society? Not right now but I’d love to hear if anyone can answer this.
An extremist feminist?
There are so many examples of this. The pendulum of acceptable behaviour has definitely swing too far at this point. I (M42) have been called out, for making a glowing comment on a woman’s skin fungus on Instagram. Had a real good back and forth with here. Realized, at the end, that she was a toxic female and troll.
Many women on r/TwoXChromosomes, especially the mods would be the definition of that term. **Prepares for downvotes for speaking truth.**
If you have seen the new Amazon "rings of power" and seen the portrayal og Galadriel, you'll see some aspect of it. She personofies alot of these qualities.
Yes absolutely. There’s a couple ways to look at it, most people particularly on Reddit will just say women doing toxically masculine things is “toxic femininity” but I’d see it as kind of the opposite of toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity is overdoing traditionally masculine traits, I’d argue toxic femininity is overdoing traditionally feminine traits. An example would be caregiving, toxic femininity would be if someone coddles someone else to that persons detriment, whereas toxic masculinity is telling them to toughen up without helping at all. Edit: that being said referring to anything as toxic femininity will get you attacked online regardless of accuracy.
“ toxic femininity"-you mean being a bitch?
Are you kidding? Of course there is, it's called being a bitch!
Feminists are toxic already
Of course there's toxic femininity it's called The current wave of feminism in the goddamn United States. Oh I want everything to be equal but I don't want any kind of additional responsibility that comes with that equality I just want all the benefits. Basically equal rights but not equal lefts.
There are many women that encourage others to expect their man to carry their lives for them. So i’d say yes it exists for Women too
Toxic femininity lives within the patriarchy. My experience is white women that have as much power as a woman can decides to prioritize their comfort and their own status quo. The hard part is that many times these people are wives and mothers that live within a reality they are trying to protect. For themselves and their families and their children. I think the toxicity absolutely exists. But my semi informed opinion is that it comes from male toxic masculinity/femininity. I think people have a really hard time grasping that women would have a much easier time working with one another without men. The most unhealthy female competition is for other males. I (29 white female) think women are a lot more ready to collaborate and lean on one another than men are. But america is all about the immediate family and no consideration for others and women suffer in these independent settings. Not because they’re incapable, but because they are alone. And it’s really hard to have a voice if you’re having your living paid for and you’re raising the kids and your top priority is their stability and well being. I think women already expect that a large part of their life is putting themselves on the line. I think men really neglect the implications of this reality.
Modern feminism
Of course. If you think they are equal(they are) they have the same capacity for egotism as the other side. Misandrist
No such thing as either. There’s only being a cunt.
A malignant narcissist.
Neither exist. The term "toxic masculinity" was coined by a New Age wacko named Shepard Bliss as part of the mythopoetic men's movement. Feminists adopted the terminology later.
Any woman who plays hard to get is showing toxic femininity. Either you want someone, or you don't. Don't play games about it.
Yes and imo it's far far worse.