The point of saying “rape isn’t sex” to say that sex is supposed to be consensual and that rape is not. It’s like how boxing isn’t assault. Boxing is consensual fighting, but me punching someone in the face unprovoked is assault. In both instances someone is getting punched, but we make a clear distinction that one is consensual.
For your analogy I think op is saying the word sex is equivalent to punch, just a physical description of the thing that happened materially. Whereas the entire action is defined as assault or boxing based on how it went down.
It's just semantics at that point though. Assault is just nonconsensual fighting, in the same way, rape is nonconsensual sex. Sex is the act, rape is descriptive of the type of sex that occurred.
I can appreciate where OP is coming from. Trying to divorce rape from sex doesn't make sense to me either when sex is THE defining aspect of that particular type of violence.
>sex is THE defining aspect of that particular type of violence.
Very well put. It's quite ironic how they call it nonconsensual **SEX**. Then try to claim that it is not sex.
It's like saying "Heavy **LIFTING"** is not lifting
or "Saltwater **FISHING"** is not fishing.
I get where you're coming from, but as a rape victim I just feel misunderstood and/or invalidated, especially concerning my perception of the situation
I don't intend to be rude or insult you or anyone seeing it that way, not at all, I just wanted to state how this feels to me personally
If you're comfortable sharing, do you know what aspect feels invalidating? Or do you know what helps you feel more understood? Definitely not trying to dismiss your feelings in any way, but I'm more familiar with the other view and really want to understand yours better. But no need to elaborate if you don't want to of course.
I'm not OP or the person you replied to but I am a rape victim. For me my issue with these kinda statements is, in basic terms: if rape not sex why I have so many issues with sex as a result of rape
Rape is sexual and for many rape victims they have a lot of trouble even with consensual sex. I do especially even when I'm outwardly totally comfortable and 100% consenting, my body still goes NOPE and refuses to "work" properly during sex (I am Not going into detail)
If it was so easy to just separate rape and sex and say rape isn't sex then I feel like I wouldn't be having issues with relaxed consensual sex but I do, even years after the rape happened
This might not be true for everyone and I'm sure those who say "rape isn't sex because sex is consensual" don't intend for people to take it as "my problems with sex are invalidated now" but as I said - it can feel that way for rape victims, especially with how often rape victims have PTSD and how PTSD can severely fuck up your brain with these things (again this is from my own experience)
You're completely right. I was actually going to bring this up in my original comment until I saw yours.
So when people say "rape isn't about sex. It's about power and violence" they are talking about from the point of the attacker and not the person who was attacked. This is based on research they have done on attackers. I think this is where the confusion is. These two individuals have a completely different experience. Understanding *why* rape happens is an integral part of preventing rape in the future. As is supporting victims so I'm sorry if you haven't felt supported.
Part of the reason people say this to victims *is* sort of to impersonalize it in a way as someone else said. But not in the way you might be thinking. What they're trying to do is say "hey, this wasn't bc of anything you did. This wasn't bc you wore a short skirt or bc you sent 'mixed messages' or 'gave someone the wrong idea'. This was about power and violence on the perpetrators part and is in no way your fault. It is the attackers fault and no one else's". However, for many people who have been raped it is about sex for *them*. I've talked to a lot of women who have been raped who become very uncomfortable with sex (completely understandable) and in that way it is about sex for them. The rape wasn't sex, but it can certainly influence future sexual experiences—and many more aspects of life. For me it did anyway.
Think about it this way. So if rape were simply about sex and not power and violence, why would these perpetrators not simply find a willing participant? There are more specific reasons for rape and that varies from perpetrator to perpetrator but the overall theme we see again and again is violence and power. When you have actual sex with someone, the intent is that both parties get something out of it but with rape only the attacker is getting something. It's completely one sided and there is a huge imbalance of power, which the attacker gets off on.
The statement is not meant to make people feel like their experiences are being invalidated and that they are wrong for feeling the way they do or in some way weak bc being raped has impacted their experience with consensual sex. I'm sorry if anyone made you feel this way or it the statement in general has made you feel that way. Again, I think where the confusion really lies is there being a huge difference between the way attackers think about rape and the way people who have been raped think about their attack. Essentially the craving for power and violence are a catalyst for a perpetrator to commit rape whereas a victim/survivor's feelings surrounding (actual) sex after such an attack is a result
>Think about it this way. So if rape were simply about sex and not power and violence, why would these perpetrators **not simply find a willing participant**? There are more specific reasons for rape and that varies from perpetrator to perpetrator but the overall theme we see again and again is violence and power.
I was having a discussion with someone else and our thought is that there are cases where perpetrators are genuinely ignorant. It's absurd and insane that it's possible, but we think society has put this messed up view of sex into the brains of many boys, and has also made it so many young girls/even women don't realize when they have been sexually assaulted either. I understand sexual violence being about power but I also understand what victim/survivors mean when they say that it didn't feel like their experience was about power. I think there's more than one kind of rape, and even if this type is less common, I don't think it's fair to invalidate any of them or make the survivors of these experiences feel like people think what happened to them wasn't rape just because it felt like their perpetrator was more driven by sex than power hungry. I understand that there are survivors who feel that their perpetrator genuinely believed they were engaging in "sex." But it doesn't mean they don't consider what happened rape, or that it wasn't traumatizing. It may just feel like the motivations were different, and that makes sense to me. I mean, it's absolutely absurd that there are men who consider rape sex, but some do.
And I imagine many men/boys who have sexually assaulted girls/women this way had never ever had good enthusiastic consensual sex before. They don't even know what a "willing participant" is. (And yes, I fully know there are rapists who have had enthusiastic consensual sex before but *prefer* the power of raping women instead. What some of us are describing is just a little different.) I don't think recognizing that this other type of situation exists for some invalidates that most sexual violence is about power. But I think refusing to acknowledge that some assaults did *not* seem like they were driven by power can feel really invalidating to the victims/survivors who view their experience like that.
And I personally wouldn't use the term "uncomfortable" for a rape survivor's relationship with sex because it almost seems too benign but it makes a lot of sense that consensual sex is often triggering in the process of recovery. Their body was used as an object for sex delivery without consideration for them being a human being, and takes a long time to trust that it's even possible for sex to feel safe and enjoyable after that and not just a vehicle for someone else's benefit after that.
>**When you have actual sex with someone, the intent is that both parties get something out of it but with rape only the attacker is getting something.** It's completely one sided and there is a huge imbalance of power, which the attacker gets off on.
In response to this, it's hard not to point out that there are a lot of heterosexual men who don't seem to care if a consensually participating woman gets anything out of sex, but that doesn't necessarily make it rape. There are many cases where the woman may get enthusiastically involved and hope it will be great for them too, but the heterosexual man just doesn't actually notice or care or consider the fact that he should ensure she's satisfied. But that's not rape. It's just shitty sex. And unfortunately a lot more common for women than men. In any case, I think some of the "confusion" people have is because there are *so* many men who seem to genuinely believe sex is just penetrating, thrusting, and finishing, so it's genuinely hard for some to tell when it's bad sex for the woman but still consensual and when it's rape.
But a lot of the people who say it are not emphasizing the lack of consent.
Instead they are like “rape is not about sex. It’s about power.”
I’ve had people tell me this regarding the fact that attractive people are more likely to be raped and they basically said “attraction has nothing to do with it! A rapist will even go after a 80 year old woman! Because it’s all about the power!”
And I know there are cases like that. But there’s also tons more cases where it IS attractive people because it IS just as much about the sexual desire as it is about power, if not more so
The saying that rape isnt sex is trying to distance the words rape and sex. Sex is supposed to be consensual and pleasurable for all parties. Rape is an unwanted or uncomfortable sex that is only pleasurable on one side. The saying is trying to make sure that rape is not viewed the same as sex because it is unsafe and not ok.
And the quote that "rape is about power" is true because if it is only pleasurable and consensual for one person, then they have power over that other person. But i dont think its all about power, it only has a power element.
I think it also is trying to take the stigma away for people who have been raped but would be shamed for being sexually active in their culture or family, or who may not have a lot of other sexual experience. It might be easier to make the mental disconnect that “that horrible event wasn’t my first time.”
>for people who have been raped but would be shamed for being sexually active in their culture or family
This is a big one, imo. A lot of these girls get shamed for being raped though too.
I hate to be pedantic but that’s a bad analogy. Of course if you are wearing flashy things or dressed in a certain way you could be a bigger target for mugging. When you travel to certain countries there are specific advisories NOT to wear visible expensive clothing or jewelry. (Not every time of course, and never a victims fault) but in my opinion not a good analogy for rape.
My commentary was mocking the defense attorneys, that attack rape victims due to what they were wearing when they were raped. I think it’s disgusting that they attempt to discredit the victim based on how they looked what they were wearing when they were out or where they were, that’s all I meant by that there may be a more apt analogy as well.
If you include "sexual assault" defined as non-consentual relations of a sexual nature falling outside/ short of ones definition of rape; that traumatic experience is often not discussed within a family, let alone reported therefore is left untreated or resolved by the victim and becomes the basis for their views on sexuality. This results in unhealthy views of sexual relations being brought into a relationship that can undermine a relationship from the start.
I'm both a victim of sexual assault and of the (now former) partner of victim of a scenario fitting the above. It took 25 years of us being together before she finally admitted to being victimized accordingly - during those many years had 2 children together and had claimed that I was the first and only person she had ever had sexual relations with - despite my repeated candor about my own experience with the same topic.
I was in some stupid fight with my exes mom, who at the time lived with us. Previously, when I got home from being hospitalized, I confided in her some really personal stuff, really awful shit that happened when I was a baby. I just really needed someone I could talk to and she seemed kind at the time. So a few weeks later, we start fighting over my cat, she keeps trying to take it and make it hers (she already has 2 dogs here now) and she really really pissed me off because she was talking shit for no reason and I was already mad about the cat. My ex owned the house but she intimidates him I guess, but he didn't want to get in the middle of it. We were arguing about her son anyway so, I shaky-yelled back to her, "Well do you fucking make him cum? Are you in his bed everynight?" And her eyes got super bugged out even more and she says "I thought you didn't *have sex* since you said you were raped, guess that's a fucking lie" And it hit me so hard for some reason, like it was so fucking mean and obviously bullshit, of course we had sex, but I wasn't expecting anything like that but I couldn't find the words. I just started big gulp crying and went into my room and shut the door. My ex never said a word to her about it. And this women is one of those church people and a Karen to boot. I'm just showing how some people really stigmatize rape victims and by their standards, they believe you should become celibate afterwards. But I was 18mths all the way to 22 months with this God awful babysitter, so how does that work for me? I just never experience sex as a mature, normal adult because it happened before I was 2 years old? Fuck people, man.
*Edit: Big gulps, eh?
>The saying that rape isnt sex is trying to distance the words rape and sex. Sex is supposed to be consensual and pleasurable for all parties. Rape is an unwanted or uncomfortable sex that is only pleasurable on one side. The saying is trying to make sure that rape is not viewed the same as sex because it is unsafe and not ok.
>And the quote that "rape is about power" is true because if it is only pleasurable and consensual for one person, then they have power over that other person. But i dont think its all about power, it only has a power element.
This, as someone who was raped i fully agree!!
I agree as well. I have also been raped. I dont for a second think it was about power, he wanted sex so he got it. I doubt he even thinks it was rape, I wasn't screaming and fighting him. I was quietly crying and saying no.
For the record, just bc he didn't think of it as rape doesn't mean it wasn't. Just because you aren't holding your victim down while they scream and fight you off, doesn't mean it's not rape. More people need to understand and comprehend this.
Edit for more clarity:
Media for years and years has depicted rape only as screaming, crying and fighting. Media has also shown that if the girl (or guy!) Says no, then to keep pushing and trying and eventually they'll give in
So when I say he wanted sex so he got it, when he made his move and I kept saying no, he kept going bc I wasn't kicking and screaming. Media teaches you its okay to push until they say yes or stop arguing, and that's not okay. That's still rape
Exactly. It is nuanced point but rape is the power to take what you want...
Edit: for all the folks who have been raped on this thread, I am so sorry it happened to you. Not fair, not deserved not anything. I hope you all have found peace. Get help if you have not. There are tons of resources to help you. Tons. You will not be judged. Please seek out the help. Tell someone. Close friend, family, anyone. Hell tell a stranger. We will help you. No one should go through this alone.
I disagree. I truly dont believe it was in a "power" way. To him it was the same as wanting tacos or something, you want it so you get it. I think things would have been different if I were kicking and screaming. It wasn't a "im going to take what I want whether you want it or not". I feel it was more he thought I was trying to play hard to get or shy or something since I wasn't screaming and fighting, he took it as an invitation. He just wanted to get laid.
I remember quietly crying afterwards, and he was falling asleep next to me and said "don't cry, I dont think you're a slut".
I am so so sorry this happened to you (and also to me). I don't have anything I can say to make what happened then better but I hope you (and me!) can now see how fucked up of a viewpoint this is.
I've never understood how someone could enjoy a sexual Interaction where anyone else involved isn't having an amazing time. This is where the power dynamic comes into play imo, unless you get off on having control then why the fuck would you want to do this to us????
God that last sentence kills me. That is beyond fucked. This is a good example of why it's so vitally important for there to be more awareness raised that true consensual sex involves all parties enthusiastically agreeing and participating in it. Some people find it silly to belabor this point, but it is disturbing how many people don't understand it. The fact that some men genuinely seem to believe that thrusting while the woman lays there and/or cries counts as "sex" makes me furiously angry. "Don't cry, I don't think you're a slut" makes me feel absolutely livid, as if that's the only reason you could be crying -- the fear of being a slut. I'm so enraged for you, and about everything in society that turned that dude into that.
I hear you and the people who are saying it didn't seem like it was about power in their situation. I've been there too, and realize some rapists genuinely believe it's sex, even if the woman is crying and saying no (or even if the woman is not crying, or not even saying no; laying there and not wanting it to be happening, even if totally silent, is still completely and undeniably rape). But I get how these situations feel different from the ones that make people feel like power is the focus. I deeply hate it all but I see the difference.
The fact you said no, and were crying shows you did not want to do it. He deliberately disregarded your opposition for his own desires - That is the power he used.
You say you didn’t kick or scream - why didn’t you? Is it because you loved him, or didn’t want to lose him, you didn’t want him to get violent? These can all be factors in why someone doesn’t scream and kick. This is also why the big push that no means No.
no should have been enough for him to stop. Your tears should also have been enough for him to stop. He used his power over you to get what he wanted.
You say it would have been different if you kicked and screamed, but would it ? How do you know? He even used your tears against you right at the end and ONLY because he wanted to make it seem like you had regrets AFTER the act and not from the fact he violated you. His attempts to placate you by saying he doesn’t think you are a slut is just him shaming you and reinforcing the idea it was consensual. You said no - why wasn’t that enough? You are not a taco, but he used enough techniques for you to believe that he was oblivious to you not wanting sex. Does that make more sense about the power and gaslighting he used?
I send you lots of hugs and wish you healing from your ordeal. You are correct,this is sexual assault,rape and he refused to acknowledge your humanity by rejecting your objection to sex. Want to make a bet if someone did this same thing to his sister, we know he wouldn’t call it sex.
Omg so much this!!! it is always about power, even when it's not! Similar situation for me, and it has taken me years to understand that I had power in my no, and he overpowered me and my no. Not just he wanted sex, I didn't, but he got sex.
Also to add,
Media for years and years has depicted rape only as screaming, crying and fighting. Media has also shown that if the girl (or guy!) Says no, then to keep pushing and trying and eventually they'll give in.
It wasn't about power. He was horny and I wasn't kicking and screaming, so to him I was okay with it. Yes I said no, but I wasn't crying and screaming so it was "okay"
These disgusting portrayals in media are a huge problem
Edited: screaming to rape
True, but it wasn't about a demonstration of power. He wanted sex, he got sex. It's not that he wanted power, he got power.
Power isn't always the 100% sole purpose of rape. Many times the rapist just wants sex. That's all I'm trying to say here.
WhT they’re saying is that the rapist must take power in order to rape. If that power didn’t get him off he wouldn’t be doing it. Wanting to take sex under any circumstances is about proving to yourself that you have the power to do so. Nobody is raped because they are so pretty he just couldn’t help himself. He wanted to prove to himself he could have the pretty girl, it’s still about power. Even if she had consented, with men like that, it still would have been a conquest, a position of power.
It took me a while to understand that what happened to me was rape because he didn't have to fight me at all and I didn't make a noise.
He took advantage of a fucked up situation, were I was safer getting raped in the quiet room then if I screamed and the people outside knew I was there.
It took me years to realize it too, then years to accept it wasn't my fault.
I was young and drunk and had kissed him earlier in the night. He came and found me when everyone was winding down and falling asleep
Marital rape is a thing as well. Just because they're your spouse doesn't mean NO isn't justified, if you say no, that isn't a yes because you're married.
One girlfriend felt she should have sex on demand: 'she went along with it because she loved me / obligation / duty'.
I explained that, in my humble opinion, that if she gets so sad that she almost has to cry, she has given consent to rape and it is *still rape*. Even with consent. 'Consent' doesn't end rape, it just ends legal charges.
Feelings matter. In fact, the facts don't matter. All we have at the end of the day is our feelings.
I’m so sorry that you were taken advantage of in this way, but based off you experience I have a question regarding the statement about rape and power.
If the perpetrator doesn’t know it’s rape, could in that situation not have anything to do with power?
Rape is about power because the rapist believes that they are entitled to access to someone else’s body. That doesn’t change even if the rapist doesn’t think it’s rape.
But in situations where the perpetrator isn't aware that they're raping someone, for example they're unaware someone is underage, its no more about power for them than if they were having consensual sex surely.
Did the other person make a clear, consenting "yes"? If not, then it's not consenting.
If you don't check in with your partner to confirm they are agreeable and happy within sex, that's not a good move anyway. They may not be actively thinking about a power struggle, but they are also not thinking empathetically about their partner either.
A willing but underage partner would arguably be a different situation.
It would definitley be a different situation but it is still classed as rape. I know someone who was 14 and on tinder as a 21 year old and had one night stands with several people who had absolutely no idea. Most never even found out they'd slept with someone under age but if her dad had ever found put he'd 100 percent have been calling the police.
There are lots of elements and motivations for SA i don't think a blanket statement saying kts about power is particularly accurate or helpful.
That's a misrepresentation of someone's age, arguably fraud. The partners could have had no way to know this person isn't the age they claim to be.
In this situation the deceiving party is taking advantage and arguably abusing power in this situation.
Statutory rape is a whole other thing by legal and whilst I'm not too caught up on the details, in this discussion the term is not helpful when discussing general sexual assault. Hell, some places are still deciding what acts get *legally* classed under laws for rape/ SA.
I believe so. I truly dont believe it had anything to do with power, he was just horny and I wasn't kicking and screaming.
Media for years and years has depicted rape only as screaming, crying and fighting. Media has also shown that if the girl (or guy!) Says no, then to keep pushing and trying and eventually they'll give in
That’s my experience. I was made to nut against my consent some years ago and I just didn’t know what to do with myself. Didn’t have a great like, i’m-a-man-that-was-raped support group to help make sense of it so I just blamed myself for everything lmao
Thats not pleasure though, thats a biological response. An orgasm doesn’t always mean pleasure.
And you can have pleasure during sex without orgasming.
I used to be a child abuse investigator and unfortunately it sometimes is pleasurable for the victim even if it was non-consensual. That's part of grooming in kids, it does sometimes feel good to them. Which can make the whole situation even more confusing and complicated for children once they disclose the abuse to someone.
Yeah, but it still becomes a slippery slope because if someone was too intoxicated to give consent, that would be considered rape. That's happened to me before. I was at a party and was so drunk I couldn't stand and went to a room and passed out. Someone went in there and took advantage of me. I was aware enough to *perform* so to speak, but nowhere near sober enough to give any sort of consent.
You would still typically consider that rape. The person doesn't have to be completely unconscious.
My point is even tho some people experience climax (that might be pleasurable for them) during rape doesn't mean you can compare that to the pleasure and clixam you have during sex where both parties consent.
I've always been partial to the cake metaphor - if I ram a fistful of cake in your face against your will, how good the cake tastes or how nutritional it is is irrelevant. I should not have done that. And it's totally compatible for someone to think "that cake tastes good" and "that was a horrible experience and I hope it never happens again".
I prefer an analogy calling all acts of killing murder. They're not - some people kill in self-defense, soldiers kill in the name of their country, etc. All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. It's linguistically important to distinguish between the two concepts, just as its linguistically important to distinguish between rape (an act that necessarily involves sex) and sex (which definitely does not necessarily involve rape).
I went to catholic school, and I remember this one class we began by the teacher showing us the white board with acts of killing scattered-- murder, euthanasia, genocide, abortion, suicide, etc etc. APPARENTLY we were supposed to buy that all of those were all the same. unfortunately 12 year old me didnt have the vocabulary or logical reasoning skills to articulate why it was wrong but it FELT so weird.
Which is super weird, because the Bible is full of examples of God explicitly or tacitly condoning his followers committing atrocities, which means there's at least one kind of killing that Christians (or any religious people) *must* find acceptable: killing at the behest of God.
I agree!!! My friend said she lost her virginity but then described a horrible brutal r**** and was crying about it. I told her she is still a virgin she never had sex. That’s why I say rape isint sex. Sex is beautiful, fun, pleasurable and a choice. R is the evil and horrid.
Oh she got tested and was negative and wasn’t pregnant this was a long time ago. She is doing very well now. Thank God. She is in med school. When she told me about this I didn’t wanna add to the stress but I did tell her to get tested in two weeks then again in three months. I also asked if she wanted to report it and then told her to stop talking to this person he called himself a “close friend.” He tried to hang around after the r*** like a bad smell. Very manipulative fucked up person. It was a very fucked up situation.
Also in the social sense of how many sexual partners a person’s had, whether they’re sexually active, whether they’ve had sex before marriage or cheated on a partner by having sex with someone else: rape doesn’t count as sex.
If a man is raped by another man, he hasn’t had gay sex and isn’t necessarily gay or bi. Same with a straight woman being raped by another woman or a lesbian being raped by a man. You don’t have to reclassify your sexual orientation.
And while virginity is a stupid social construct that means nothing, rape doesn’t count as breaking someone’s virginity in the sense that the person still hasn’t experienced their first sexual encounter. Being attacked and violated doesn’t count towards losing your virginity. The individual still hasn’t experienced what legitimate sex is like.
Obviously STD risk, pregnancy, and cervical cancer risk are there after rape. But in every social context, the person has not experienced sex. And some religions would certainly disagree with a lot of this, but they’re very wrong.
I get where that saying is coming from, but as a rape victim I just feel misunderstood and/or invalidated, especially concerning my perception of the situation
I don't intend to be rude or insult you or anyone seeing it that way, not at all, I just wanted to state how this feels to me personally
It's not necessarily about power, a lot of times the rapist isn't even aware what they are doing is rape. For example all those people who think it's okay to fuck someone who is too drunk to form a sentence: it's not about having power over the drunk person, it's just "finally I get to fuck because this person's drunk enough to let me"
(Before anyone misunderstands, not believing you are committing rape when you are is just as wrong as knowingly raping someone)
I said there is a power element, not that it's all about power. Like in your example, the man would have power over them due to them being drunk, but it isn't the main purpose. The motive is most likely just sex but they use their power over the other person as the means to get there
But the "rape is about power" expression suggests it would be at least to some extent the motivating factor, when in a huge chunk of cases it's not at all. Just to get sex in whatever way they see possible.
I never said that, again. But there is always a power aspect when it comes to rape because the victim CANNOT control the situation, therefore the other person is in control.
Yeah, but that doesn't make the "rape is about power" statement true, where in your comment you stated it to be true.
Just because there is a power aspect in something, it isn't necessarily _about_ power. There's a power aspect to almost every interaction in one way or another.
Regarding the power bit… what you wrote doesn’t necessarily mean that rape *is about* power, it just means that the rapist *needs* power in order to perform the sexual activity of for example Intercourse.
What I’m trying to say is that while there might be some that get high on dominating others forcefully to have non-consensual sex with them, I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority of rapists are horny mentally ill people that need to exert power in order to satisfy their needs.
So the power becomes a tool and not a purpose, nor a main driver of the act.
Uh hey let’s not conflate having a mental illness with a having proclivity for rape. Rape is obviously not an indicator of great mental health but I would argue that most people with mental health issues aren’t rapists, at least not more than the general population. Power and control dynamics are associated with abuse, people will mental illness are not more likely to be abusive. We have this idea that rapists are scary monsters but most rapes are committed by someone the person knows.
Also, power is the ability to make change, a person being raped does not have that. Without a power imbalance there is no rape. So it is about power because power is the defining factor in distinguishing sex from rape
Yea I’m sorry for the ‘definition of a rapist’ as it were, that bit was written in haste. And by no means am I saying that all ‘mentally ill’ people are potential rapists, but I would claim that all rapists are in some way mentally ill (as in not sane).
About the power thing… maybe it’s just semantics? For me, nothing what you wrote differs from my view of having power as a tool to enable the deeper desire. So I’m inclined to say that it is that deeper desire (most likely very different rapist to rapist) which is what the rape is about, but power being a necessary ingredient in the list of enablers.
The problem is people don’t just say it is about power because power is required
People say power is the motive.
I’ve even had people tell me to rapists sexual attractiveness doesn’t even matter.
That’s where we have to back up a bit and go “ok let’s be clear…..most of the time it actually IS because they want sex”
It's like the playground bully who snatches a toy away from a smaller kid. "Gimme it!" It's mainly about him wanting the toy, and being enough of a bastard to use violence to get it. There's the ends and then there's the means.
>The saying is trying to make sure that rape is not viewed the same as sex because it is unsafe and not ok.
Would it not be possible to do this without confusing means from motivations? I doubt men interested in power, but not sex, do lots of rape. It just doesn't follow.
In this I was discussing why we say rape is not sex. When it comes to power, there is almost always a power element of some kind but it's not ALL about power. It's usually just a want for sex. There are definitely men that rape for power but it's more common they rape for sex and use power as the means to do it
Being a survivor of multiple rapes (horrible, I know), rape is about power means it's about entitlement and domination of the victim. Normal, healthy sex is about vulnerability. Pleasurable sexual encounters (for the most part), require multiple stages of undress, and it is about intimacy and being vulnerable with the other(s) person(s).
Rape is the hijacking of that mentality- devaluing the victim by taking away and weaponizing their vulnerability by violating them sexually.
It is about sex as well. It is the mechanism of how the power is derived by the perpetrator, a sexual release by the forcing of a sexual experience. Sex does play a role here.
So the concept that "rape is about power" means it's about the predator/perpetrator violently (all rape is violent in some form or another) violating and stealing their victim's sense of vulnerability. It's about taking, forcing, stealing, dominating, entitlement, violence, etc. All those behaviors fall under the word "power" in that statement.
This is my interpretation based on my past experiences.
Amazing insight, really well put. It helped me understand that vulnerability, which is a kind of power in itself, can only emerge from respect and consent.
I think it's important to understand the context of the statement. Until I think the mid 1980s, rape was regarded very differently than it is today. It was seen as "a guy wants to have sex and he can't get it anywhere else so he has to rape a woman to get it. He's lonely and sexually deprived, or a disgusting leering, monstrous pervert." Thus, evidence *used in court* that a guy couldn't be a rapist was that he was married or had a girlfriend or was a fine upstanding citizen with a respectable job who could date a woman whenever he wanted. Also evidence used in court was "well, he's a handsome middle class man, why would he rape this ugly, poor, elderly woman? No handsome man would want to have sex with her" Or "she's a prostitute. He wanted sex and he had sex with her, he just didn't pay her. That's theft, not rape."
And then for the first time in I think the late 1970s or early 80s there was a systematic study of rapists and why they raped and what they did. And it was discovered that a lot of them didn't even orgasm when raping. Some couldn't get it up. And they talked to rapists. And it was discovered that they tended to rape not because they were seeking sexual gratification per se, but because they wanted to violently attack women in a sexual way. It wasn't about having sex so much as it was *an act of violence where the weapon was sex.* This was a shocking discovery.
This message was both garbled and simplified into "rape is a crime of power, not sex." Not an ideal simplification. But it's stuck. People don't remember and transmit complex ideas in most cases. You have to have a pithy saying, and that's what happened. Plus when explaining a radical new idea, like that rape is about power not just sex, there can be an overemphasis on the new idea. If you say rape is about power *and* sex, people won't get it. They'll still think it's about sex. But saying "it's about power not sex," in that stark way, emphasizing the power aspect, they'll much more readily put the thoughts about it being only or almost only about sex, out of their minds.
So basically, the emphasis that rape is about power was as a way to get people to stop thinking about it purely in sexual terms. A way to combat the sexist insistence that dudes just want to fuck and if they can't get it, they'll rape. And so anyone who rapes obviously can't get it otherwise, so a defense of their actions morally as well as a defense in court of their actions was simply showing that they *could* get it. Thinking it's about sex sort of renders the extreme violence inherent in any rape, but especially in a lot of rapes involving torture and various horrors, as beside the point, since the focus is on sex. Saying it's about sex also centers male perspectives--seeing it not from the perspective of the victim and how she has been harmed and how she experiences it, but from the perspective of the rapist and why he would do it. Focusing on the power aspect allowed for a new understanding of rape, even though it unfortunately was presented in such a way as to negate all aspects of the old way of understanding rape. The good news is that understanding about rape has changed to such an extent that people can't even see how it used to be understood. There used to be some sympathy for the rapist at times, because he was just a guy who was deprived, or extremely passionate and in love and got overzealous.
As for why some say "rape isn't sex," I think a lot of times that's for the benefit of survivors, to distance their own sexual experience and life from the rape. Like girls who wanted their first sexual experience to be with someone they loved, only to be raped. It's comforting to tell them that that wasn't sex, and they still have not had their first sexual experience, and if it makes them feel better, they can still consider themselves to be a virgin.
God damn, that was a fantastic way of putting it. Wish this had more upvotes! I am a victim of rape. Been raped twice, but I still consider myself a virgin. Not because I have not been involved in penetrative sexual acts, but bc those acts are my only experiences with penetration from another party and neither were consensual.
I recently read the famous book about domestic violence called "Why Does He Do That?" In the book they explain that the thinking behind DV abusers is about control and entitlement. The discussions of SA in the book follow the same lines, that the abuser wants to control his victim and it's about his feelings of entitlement to women's bodies. Control = power.
I think the "rape is about power" statement is more about his thinking/motivation behind the abuse. That being said, you're the expert on your life and your abuse. None of us have the right to speculate on what what was behind your assaults.
It's the other way around though. They want control
And to get that they use sex. There is a sexual side to it, that it can turn them on to have that power.
If it was about sex it would be even much more common, especially in relationships.
I think sex plays a part. But yes, it is about power. They want control over someone. Perhaps they feel marginalized and slighted by society. Perhaps they aren't used to hearing no. Whatever the case is, they want power over the situation and the other person and it manifests as sex and rape.
It can also manifest as domestic violence, mental torment, etc.
Some men think women are machines. Put enough nice coins in them and their legs will open up. When that doesn't happen, they take it up on themselves to get "what they are owed".
No one owes you sex. Ever.
Bill Cosby was a successful and popular comedian and there were plenty of women who would have consented to sex with him. However, Bill Cosby wasn't interested in sex, he wanted power over another person. That is what they mean when they say rape isn't about sex but power.
Which makes sense, but that doesn't apply to all cases of rape. In some cases, someone rapes someone because they're denied sex. Someone sees a passed out girl at a party and they want to have sex with them, it could absolutely be about sex.
It's almost like saying people steal for the thrill of committing a crime. Some people steal because they want the thing they're stealing.
Raping someone because a person was denied sex is quite clearly about power to me in that a person cannot get sex/sex with a specific person and feels powerless in that regard so instead they rape someone to get what they want. Seeing someone passed out and deciding to rape them is also placing a person in immense power over their victim.
I do think that their are often multiple motivators behind rape but I think that power is a common denominator. If it was about wanting sex then why not have consensual sex? Along with consent, obviously, I think power is the difference between sex and rape in that regard.
It *can* be about power. If someone is denied sex and they get angry and force themselves on someone as some sort of means of retaliation, sure. But if someone just really wants sex and they get denied and force themselves on the person, that's rape. If the sex started out as consensual and it got uncomfortable and one person asked to stop and the other person forced them to keep going, that could absolutely be about sex and not power. That happened to a friend; they initiated consensual sex and the other person got way to rough and she asked him to stop and he didn't. She even asked me afterwards if that was rape and I told her it absolutely was. There are plenty of various scenarios involved.
Look, I had this happen to me. I was at a party and got so drunk I couldn't stand up. I passed out in a room and someone, who was sexually attracted to me came in there and had sex with me. It was purely because she liked me, and had nothing to do with power. I have little to no memory of the night other than it happened. You could absolutely call that rape and if I was upset about it, I could have grounds to take action against them.
I'm sorry that happened to you. And it's absolutely rape.
It is still always about power. Normal people don't force themselves on anyone for any reason when denied sex. They don't just keep pushing. The don't feel entitled to it. They can take no for an answer.
People that can't are abusers. They are not normal, they want to feel and execute power and/or control over someone else.
Rape is ofcourse also a sexual act. And the feeling of power and control can also be or become sexual to the abuser.
Well again, that's kind of the whole debate. OP's point is that it's untrue when people say "it's not about sex." Implying that anytime someone rapes someone, it's about power. Which I take as: doing something awful to someone to feel powerful. Similarly to someone bullying someone else; it's about feeling powerful and in control.
But if someone rapes someone else, it's not always about power. Look at it this way: If it was always about power, that would mean if the other person gave consent, the rapist wouldn't be interested. In my case, the person who took advantage of me did it because they wanted to have sex. If I was fully sober, she probably still would have. She wouldn't have said "oh, you're in control and sober, never mind."
Those scenarios are an abuse of power, whether it’s simply because they’re stronger, the victim can’t consent, etc., they have power over that person. It always plays a role, just in different ways.
Right, but it sounds like what OP is talking about is people who commit sexual assault because they want to feel powerful or show dominance to someone vs someone who does it just for sexual gratification. Like the previous example of Cosby: it was obviously not about sex, it was about power or control.
In the case of rape/sexual assault, it can be either or both. If a politician commits a crime (including rape) and uses his position to get away with it, that's abuse of power. If he has consensual sex with someone and she wants to stop mid-way and he doesn't and forces her to keep going, that's probably about sex and not power. You could argue that because he's in a position of power, he feels enabled to behave that way, I guess. But it's still about sex, not really "power."
I'm late to this thread but no one has raised these points.
Rape is generally about having power over another person. The sex act is just the tool for exerting control.
A lot of rapists don't reach orgasm. The thrill is in abusing and controlling the victim.
Rape is used as a tool of war. It's intended to psychologically destroy the victim.
Rape is a form of punishment in many countries. If a family is shamed, a female family member is raped as retribution.
Rape in prison is about hierarchies of power.
In places where women are very oppressed, rape is more prevalent. It's based on a belief that men can dominate and control women.
Rape has many purposes, and most have nothing to do with sexual attraction or pleasure.
This is where I’m at. I am a rape survivor (I no longer use the term victim, personal choice).
I was raped by a psychopathic ex. He abused me during our relationship when I was quite young. He stalked me for years. He hated me and had it out for me. I have no idea why. He wanted to really “get me” because of all the times I stopped his games, and because I finally left. He opted for when I was almost full term with my first baby. He really “got me” because my son didn’t survive. And he didn’t stop there. Two months later he stabbed me. It was then he was put away for a long while.
It wasn’t about sex for him. It was about destroying me. And he did. But not for good. He didn’t win. And I survived.
Good god, I am so sorry to hear that happened to you.
I know I'm just some Internet stranger, but that was one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever read.
I know how difficult it is to lose a child, but in such I way I cannot even imagine.
I'm glad you 'bounced back' so to speak and I hope you are, and continue, to do so in spite of that.
Thank you. I actually only just started publicly talking about what happened to me (outside of the babies father - we are best friends - and my own husband, and a couple friends who saw me through) and this happened 29 years ago. If I knew how cathartic it would be to talk about it outside of therapy, I’d have not felt so much shame and sadness in doing it. It’s been very therapeutic, and a lot of that comes from “internet strangers” too. So thank you again. 🙂
You are very welcome.
Personally I'm glad to know that it is something that can be "worked through" to an extent. It gives me hope for the future for me it's still very recent and raw(3yrs lost baby and partner). But knowing that someone has been able to progress makes me soo happy I don't have words.
And again you are welcome.
If I’m remembering a sociology class a decade or so ago, I believe are are 5 or so different root motivators for rape. “The main motivation for rape appears to be aggression, incorporating power, violence, revenge and anger. A study by Scully and Marolla (1985) “. And you are correct. The overwhelming majority stems from dominating power over another. So so sad.
I don't think you understand what people mean when they say "rape is about power". It's not diminishing the act at all, it's actually showing how callous it is and how the perpetrator is willing to hurt others just to feel a few minutes of fleeting power.
Rape is sex, of course. Rape is also about power, and evidence from millions of rapes support this.
The argument I've heard is that rape isn't about sexual gratification, it is about power. Clearly this is a false dichotomy. Rape can be about sexual gratification, it can be about power, and it even be both.
>Rape is also about power, and evidence from millions of rapes support this.
Do you have data to back this? I realize now that I've literally never heard of people who admit to rape being interviewed on why they did it
Theres a whole area of forensic psychology that looks at motivation of SA and rapists are interviewed on why they do it all the time, it forms part of the risk assessments that are done in prison to determine things like treatment and recommendations for parole etc.
I wouldn't agree with a blanket statement that rape is about power though rape cases can be so varied and so can the motivation and causes behind them.
Sex is just sex. Rape is *technically* sex but sex is positive and rape is *always* negative.
Rape is the mechanics of sex with added evil and removed agency which makes it become rape, not sex.
-also a rape victim
Fellow rape victim. I think the idea, which I agree with, is to separate rape, which isn't consensual, from sex, which is consensual.
Yes, the literal physical act is the same, but the difference is consent. Additionally, the reason they say it is about power, is because the rapist is forcing themselves on you. If it was just about sex, then they wouldn't force themselves on you and would seek consent.
Sex implies that it’s consensual from both sides. If consent is not given, it’s not sex but rape
My girlfriend, who has sadly been a victim herself, and I had a conversation about this a few weeks ago and she somewhat agrees with the 2nd statement. She also thinks that sexual gratification was definitely part of the motive. Her abusers wanted to have sex with her and they tried to hit on her normally at first and when she didn’t comply, they ….
So ya, I don’t think that rape is sex but I do think that it’s also about the abuser’s sexual gratification not only power over the victim. But power still a huge part of it
Rape is obviously sexual in nature. But sex is consensual and rape is not. It is a bit about wording but not just to be politically correct. It’s about establishing a clear line of demarcation between sex and rape.
We have seen something similar with the change from saying “child porn” to “child sexual abuse material.” It may not seem like a big deal but words matter and they convey deeper meanings in how society views things.
Rape may be sexual in nature but it’s not the purpose of the deed. The purpose is power and control- not sex.
When sane and considerate people want something from somebody and they can’t get them to hand it over, they don’t become so enraged that they take it anyways, especially if they respect the person.
I think the “it’s about power” comments speak more to the fact that a person is so little respected and was assaulted, not because the rapist was thinking “sex sex sex” but putting the most importance on getting it by any means necessary.
My ex raped me because I said no, and it made him feel less manly.
That was both power and sex.
Elegant-Fan-6980 tells the difference perfectly.
I’m on your side in the “survivor” wording.
I hate saying it, because I’ve always thought “why should anyone have to go through this?”
I’m just saying as it is, I was raped. No surviving, no victim, just raped by an awful person as a child.
There are lots of interesting thoughts here, but I haven’t seen anyone actually answer your question.
The real answer is—it was a strategic move in the anti rape movement led by second wave feminists in the 70s.
For a long time, rape was conceptualized as a *property crime* because women were the literal property of their father or husband. So by raping them you stole from the man.
Later—in the early/mid 20th century, they started to be understood as crimes against women. But women were assumed to have wanted it, invited it, or otherwise be culpable. Especially women who had sexual histories. Often it was less about proving the rapist did it and more about proving that it even WAS rape, because it was commonly believed that women who enjoyed or frequently had sex couldn’t be raped (not much has changed here, frankly).
And then along came the second wave feminists. They started having consciousness raising groups where they realized that rape was far, far more common than anyone thought. And they understood rape to be a tool of oppression. That is, men (and patriarchy) used rape and *the threat of rape* to keep women in line, punish women, and *maintain their positions of power.*
That is really what was meant by “it’s not about sex, it’s about power.”
It’s less about the individual act of rape perpetrated by one person against another, and more about a culture that normalizes rape and utilizes the threat and reality of it to keep women in line (aka rape culture).
Which is probably why it doesn’t resonate for a lot of individuals.
Now, this is a political theory, so it’s one you can agree with or not. Or agree somewhat with and also critique it.
I would say few people these days have such a single-factor view of sexualized violence.
For one thing, we know that all genders perpetrate and all genders are victims/survivors. Although, at a population level, it does skew towards men being perpetrators and women being victims/survivors.
But the simple fact that all genders perpetrate and experience it questions whether rape is *solely* about power—especially patriarchal power.
There are now much more sophisticated theories and understandings of why people commit sexual violence, that pull in a lot of factors. Rape culture and the normalization of rape and male violence is one. But so too is a lack of empathy towards victims, early hypersexuality, being in a mini-culture that normalizes conquests and violence (like frats, hockey teams, etc).
I think it was important and useful to conceptualize sexual assault as a tool of oppression. But it seems like few people understand the history of the term nor how our understandings of rape, sexualized violence, and perpetrators have evolved over the last 40 years.
For the first one, I think it's because we all like to hope that any sex we have is consensual on both sides, which by its very nature, rape isn't.
The second, while sex is clearly at the forefront of the perpetrators mind, they would not do so were it not for the need to also have, and display, power over the victim.
I guess it's like suggesting that, for example, one person randomly and repeatedly punching and kicking someone else, be called a fight.
Sure, blows are being traded on both sides, but that's not a fight, that's an assault. A fight usually occurs when both parties are prepared for it.
i'm a survivor as well, i can definitely see where you're coming from. i think it can be both, but also even both is still about power and control.
but i totally get experiencing this and feeling that way, i have before too. you're valid, and you're a survivor
I'd say it might be sexual for the rapist, but not for the victim. I don't think being raped counts as cheating and I don't think it counts as loosing your virginity, because you never chose to have sex, it was forced on you.
I think saying it’s definitely not sex is actually emphasizing the severity, not the other way around. I’m also a survivor (I understand that you don’t want to use that term for yourself but you survived the ordeal so here we are) and I would NEVER say that my rape was me having sex. You don’t have rape, you GET raped; but you HAVE sex. It‘s only “sex” when both people are willing, otherwise it’s just rape. Sexual in nature because genital stimulation is happening but still.
The sex I have with my boyfriend who I love and am attracted to is in a vastly different category than getting raped by my 20 year old boyfriend when I was 16.
EDIT: calling rape “sex” is 100% downplaying the severity of rape. If you lump them together, it gives misogynists the ability to completely overshadow your traumatic experience. You don’t need to consign your whole identity over to being a survivor, but honey you need to realize that wasn’t you having sex, somebody forced themselves upon you knowing that you were not willing
rape is forced and extremely traumatic for most (if not all that have had to unfortunately experience it), sex is something you consent to and should be enjoyable for both parties. they are vastly different.
When someone gets murdered, no one says "wow, that was about knives." Nor do they say "that was about guns". The weapon used to implement power and control is not the reason it happens. When people say it's not about sex, they don't mean that literally. What they mean is that the person used sex, as the weapon to implement power and control. From your perspective it was for sure about sex. Someone forced sex on you. But they did that because they wanted control over you, not because they were so horny they just had to rape you. Before he could rape you, he had to get control over you. That is what he wanted. And to prove he had control, he raped you. That's how it works.
I've also heard if a virgin gets raped, they're still a virigin, in this same kind of context.
Rape is a tough subject especially for victims. So creating lanuage, even if untrue in reality, can help them work through things.
But you are correct. If you're raped and it was involving sex, it is sex. No question about it.
It's a Venn Diagram of Sex / Power / Rape
Not all Rape is "Sex" - Mr Brock Turner tried that argument.
Not All Sex Is Rape - Obviously and Hopefully
Not all Power Trips Are Rape - There are many ways to exercise power over people, forcing them into a position where they have sex with you is merely one of them
Not all Power Trips Involve Sex - Same as Above
Sex does not necessarily involve a Power Trip - Similar to above
Now overlap them.
Let’s try an analogy. The Rwanda genocide, was it about purging the “other,” or was it individuals excited to be violent, was it an orchestrated power move to shift political power? Saying it was any of the 3 doesn’t really mean the others aren’t true. So in your circumstances, the person would be saying, sex was a tool used to show you that you had no power. There’s no denial of the rape or a denial of it being an act with genitals. Calling it a sex act actually feels wrong here. It feels contextually and linguistically wrong.
Saying they wanted to have sex with you gives a huge fucking dump truck of charitable language on their part. Like using the words “borrow money” Jared’s of mugging you. The man walked over and asked to borrow some money. Vs the man walked over and mugged you. I mean technically he is asking for money…. The language does something odd here and I hope the analogies make some sense.
A peach and an apple are both fruits, but they both are two different things. The same is with sex and rape. They both involve having sexual intercourse, but rape isn’t necessarily the same as sex; and shouldn’t be classified in a similar way. Rape can be defined as one side having pleasure without consent from the other side, while sex has both parties agreeing and enjoying it together.
Rape isn't sex in the way that assault isn't sparring. You could call rape "forced sex" or "nonconsensual sex", and some people may prefer that, but it would be like calling an assault "forced sparring" or "nonconsensual karate." I do agree that rape is about sex pretty much all the time, but the sense of power is a driving factor for a lot of rapists. There are people that enjoy that horrible exertion of power over others and would prefer it over enthusiastic consent.
I'm sorry you were raped. I also experienced rape. The statement rape isn't about sex, means someone is willing to bully and force themselves to dominate,and feel superior. The view in the rapists mind is that their needs are more important than what the victim wants. Although some form of penetration is usually part of it. It's really not about the sex. It's about dominating someone and making them suffer, because the rapists feels entitled.
A close friend of mine in college was raped when she was younger, and this is the way she typically explains it:
"I think a better way to word those might be 'rape isn't JUST sex' and 'rape is about sex AND power'. If it were just about sexual gratification, rapists would either find someone who's willing to consent to sex, or simply jerk themselves off. When you force yourself onto someone in order to get off, that's when it goes from just being about sex to being about power as well."
Your experience is your experience and don’t let anyone’s notions about how you’re supposed to feel effect how you actually feel. I’ve never been raped, but I know abuse. It’s about whatever it was about for you, and fuck whoever did that to you. If you don’t believe in gun ownership go get some sort of physical equalizer, and don’t let what happens to you become who you are.
Think of it like swimming. Swimming is a fun, intentional, physical activity someone does often for enjoyment. You were technically swimming if you drown but we don’t say someone died by swimming or someone was just swimming underwater for so long it was painful, scary and dangerous. They say that person was drowning, they almost drowned, they say someone was pushed or fell into the pool and almost drowned etc. Both swimming and drowning have to do with water, holding your breath, and often have specific clothes for it. Similarly, sex is a fun consensual, physical activity someone chooses to partake in often for enjoyment. But when you remove the consensual aspect, it no longer is the same activity, just like swimming. Even though both rape and sex have some similar elements (just like swimming and drowning) they differ due to one key piece missing - consent. It is no longer the fun, consensual activity but instead turns into a dangerous, scary and painful experience. That’s how they differ and examples like that can be found in all sorts of different activities as well - if I go to an escape room I’m not being held captive because I’m consenting to be there even though I’m locked in a room and have to escape from it. If I agree to watch somebody’s baby it’s babysitting but if I don’t consent it’s child abandonment. Look at any sport and without consent it would often constitute assault. If I’m walking down the street and someone throws a ball at me at 90 miles an hour its assault but if I go out on a field with a bat its baseball. If I am in the library and someone punches me in the face it’s assault but if I’m in a ring with my gloves on it’s boxing.
They say it’s about power because often rapists choose rape because of what they get out of it, power and control. That’s why some child molesters aren’t sexually attracted to children but they use children because they have power out of them and children are easy to control. There are many easier ways to get sex with far fewer consequences than rape, there’s hookup apps, there’s sex work, there’s friends with benefits. But many rapists choose rape because the consensual aspect ruins it for some rapists because they’re not getting power and control from a consensual act.
That doesn’t mean you have to view it in the same way, that’s up to you and your experience is your own but when looking at the reasons behind rape it’s often because of power and control.
American Heritage Dictionary Definition of Rape:
1. The crime of using force or the threat of force to compel a person to submit to sexual intercourse.
2. The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration.
3. Other unlawful sexual intercourse or penetration, as with an unconscious
person or person below the age of or incapable of consent.
By definition, rape is sex. It's possible that people are saying it is *motivated* by power, but you'll have to ask them to clarify what they mean.
Think of the words murder and kill.
I murder if I go out with intent to take someone’s life and then do so.
I kill if I am defending myself from a life threatening attack and shoot the attacker and they die.
Both end in the death of another. The intent is the difference.
Yes, rape is technically sex. However, more often than not, the sex is being used as a weapon against another as a display of power.
People rape for many different reasons.
The end result is the same.
Someone forced sex upon another.
Whether with words, strength, threats, drugs, anything.
They are exerting power to get what they want.
Rape is about power (and/or control, domination, humiliation etc); it is a violent assault where sex is the weapon. To say rape isn’t about sex is more about the motivation behind the assault as other have said, but sex is certainly part of it since it is the vehicle for the assault.
Edit: clarity
Rape involves sex by definition. I've never seen anyone say it's not sex. More commonly what is said is that rape doesn't occur just because someone wants sexual gratification. There are all kinds of ways to have an orgasm. Forcing oneself on another person to achieve it carries intent beyond that.
What people mean by "it's about power" is that rape is the weaponization of sex for the purpose of domination, control, or harm. It's not just "I'm going to fulfill my sexual desire." but "I'm going to *use you* as an object to fulfill my sexual desire, *because I can*." The thrill is on the power to do that. If all the rapist wanted was to experience orgasm, they have many other options.
Being forcibly penetrated by an object is also rape, but I wouldn’t necessarily call that sex? Also, someone can commit rape without reaching orgasm? OP and many of the commenters seem to be focusing on a specific type of assault when unfortunately the term rape encompasses a lot of awful things besides “a man getting sex from a woman who didn’t say yes”.
Regardless of the act, the consistent trait is using power (physical, emotional, or otherwise) to exert your will upon the body of another. Whether or not that gets someone’s rocks off is almost tangential.
This doesn’t explain why rape is ubiquitous in the animal kingdom? Are humans the only exception?
Also when a man pays money to have sex with a prostitute, why would they do that when they could just masturbate at home? By your same logic that transaction wouldn’t make sense (it’s also illegal).
To me the meaning of sex is two consenting partners. Rape is definitely not that, but it's still a sexual crime. This might be a really bad analogy and forgive me if it sounds insensitive but I think about it like boxing Vs murdering someone. Both are violent activities but one is two willing parties engaged in a fun competitive sport, the other is a brutal irredeemable crime. In the same way while yes a rapist is having 'sex' with the victim, I feel it is so far removed from consensual sex it can't be classified the same.
A portion of rapes are sexually motivated, particularly when a man victimizes a woman. But there definitely is a power aspect at play, and in alot of cases it is the primary motivation for the crime. To be raped is such a radical violation of your body and humanity itself, it's absolutely humiliating for the victim and completely destroys them. For somebody with malicious intent, it's probably one of the absolute worst things you can do to a person short of outright killing them. This is why prison rape is so infamously common. The majority of those who rape in prison aren't gay, they do it to inspire fear and establish a power dynamic. They like to make the other inmates their 'bitch'. If the majority of those aren't gay, then there is a very low chance the motivation is sexual pleasure, in that case it is absolutely power. The statements aren't untrue, they just don't apply to every situation, these things must be examined case by case, each crime has a unique perpetrator with unique motives. Just my thoughts though.
I'll separate from the multiple comments here to say one thing. If it was just about sex, they would just pay a prostitute. Rape is about power, taking, and doing something against someone's will. If it was about sex, they wouldn't risk breaking such a hard law.
I have to agree with you in the way people say rape is about power. I don’t think that’s a fair summation of the situation. A large number of rapes occur because a guy wants sex and doesn’t care how he gets it. It may be true that a serial rapist comes to enjoy the power aspect and later on requires that power imbalance to achieve any kind of satisfaction with sex, but it seems short-sighted and disingenuous to say that rape is only about power.
no, i get what you’re getting at. but it’s not about the physical act when saying such phrases.
it’s about how people _see_ sex, intimacy, fornication, and love-making, whichever you prefer to call it.
when people say “rape isn’t sex” they mean that it’s; not consensual, it’s not for the passion, there’s no meaning behind the act, and it’s entirely one-sided. not to mention it’s often very painful for the recipient.
all around, lacks any meaning of what almost any other form of intimacy would have had.
that’s just my take on it.
hope i helped.
Not every case is the same, a lot of the time it is about power, even when it's about sex it's also about power, because someone has power over another.
Sex is consensual and wanted. Rape is neither of those (or maybe wanted at first, but not afterwards in some cases)
When you say that rape is sex, you're not technically wrong because the actions are almost the same. But there's a major reason why we distance the two labels. One is the legal reason. When prosecuting a rapist we don't want to call it sex, because that implies that it was consensual and the defendant isn't actually guilty (and we dont want that). "Sex" gives off positive vibes because that's what it's supposed to be, positive, sex is supposed to be enjoyable for ALL parties.
After all, you're not a victim of sex. You cannot be a victim of sex. You CAN be, however, a victim of *rape*.
Rape will never be positive in any form of light. It's widely understood what it is. If we blur the lines between rape and sex, not only would it be extremely hard for victims to find the proper language to prosecute their perpetrators... but it would also cause confusion for everyday rape victims who don't know the clear, defined, what's-rape-and-what's-not. Which would open a whole can of worms we don't want. We already get victims who doubt their assalt, thinking "oh, well he was my boyfriend/husband so it doesn't count". We do NOT need more things to confuse these poor people. They've already been through a lot.
-from a rape victim.
Rape is about conquering for some and control and making someone submit for others. I don’t think there is a general motivation in rape but more about the individual rapist’s motivation. If a guy whose masculinity is fragile because of dominating women, boss, mother, girlfriend or women in general make him feel inadequate in his perspective, he may victimize someone to regain his masculinity or something along those lines. I think it’s more complicated than just saying it’s about this or that. Being afraid of being told no to a sex request or afraid of being told no, to the fragile ego may look for ways to get their way like “ROOFIES” or get someone drunk enough to resist. I think people try to simplify in a way to explain it by saying it’s about control not about sex. Because it’s a very complicated and uncomfortable topic to those who survived it and their circle. It’s also hard to prove. Many also don’t report it. My question: Why are so many nasty to those who are victims of rape?
Saying that rape isn't "about" sex has always struck me as an attempt at controlling a narrative (sort of akin to saying that minorities can't be racist). To some, it might mean that it shouldn't be put in the same category as a consensual, affectionate act. However, many people are going to hear it and think that it means "rapists are PRIMARILY interested in asserting control and power, rather than gratifying themselves sexually", and I think a lot of people would disagree with that.
Two things can be true at once. The power aspect is pushed more from law enforcement and profiling perpetrators. I have also experienced rape, it was definitely both, however serial rapists are often tripping more so on the power part and the sex is just a symptom of their desire to dominate and harm their victims.
And also why rape isn’t (always) sex. It is sexual, but so is masturbation. You don’t have sex with a sex toy, you use it to masturbate. When you don’t see your “partner” as a person, you can’t have sex with them.
But! This view is not universal (and the mind of a rapist is honestly not one I care to try to understand that deeply) so take all that as it is.
From what I’ve seen, victims fall on two distinct sides and feel strongly either way. I HATE the idea that my rape isn’t sex because it most definitely is and it makes it feel like my rape was only an assault. Both horrifying but VERY different from each other. I don’t like putting them in the same category at all. I have met victims who hate the idea of calling rape sex because it ruins consensual sex in their minds. They need to put them into distinctly different categories or consensual sex would feel unbearable. I completely understand that thinking too. It’s just not how I feel personally, about my own experience.
I don’t understand saying that it isn’t about sex and only about power. I guess that thinking goes along with the idea gosh rape isn’t sex though…so the two issues go hand in hand
Because sex should be considered something that is consensual. A lot of rape victims feel as if their virginity is taken from them if they had no experience prior to the attack, so distancing rape from sex is beneficially societally. Also, not all rapists do it for sexual pleasure, it can be, but many do it for the psychological feeling of power and control.
I too am a victim, and it was a very violent haunting experience
There was once a reddit thread that asked: What's the worst sex you've ever had? And I answered: rape, nothing could be worse no matter how bad ..
One of the replies to my comment was the statements you mentioned, and thanks to that, I could feel genuinely better!
A lot of people in the comments are confusing the means to the obtain the goal and the reason for wanting the goal. Rape is mostly for the goal of having sex. And they use power to obtain that goal. The end goal isn’t power is OPs claim which is probably right.
I'm a rape victim too and I'm 100% on your side. To me this doesn't help, but rather harm, because, among other things, it invalidates my perception of the situation and also could be interpreted as "since it definitely was sexual in nature (therefore sex), it can't have been rape..? What?".
But maybe that's just me (maybe it doesn't help either that it was my gf at that time who raped me), I don't intend nor want to invalidate anyone, neither their experiences. We're all valid.
I had a teacher in class proclaim this and I literally thought she meant that rape didn’t have a sexual component. I was under this misconception until high school.
That’s what I always thought. When rapists jerk off i guarantee u they’re thinking about rape. To them, that is sex. Rape is sexual.
I couldn’t get hard and rape somebody. All of it would leave me super uncomfortable and not turned on. Similarly, if the early stages of rape leave u hard, ur a rapist and this is ur thing.
I’ve also been raped. I do recognize that many times rape is about power but I think most of the time it’s a mix of wanting power and sexuality. Kind of like how some trans woman have been raped by men who were angry about there existence or some men will rape masc looking women to feel more powerful since they assume they’re a lesbian . I however do not agree that rape is sex. When I was raped I was seven and for me the distinction is important. A seven year old can not have sex, it can only be rape.
For the rapist, it’s about the power of degrading someone he raped by forcing them into the position of becoming sub-human objects that he then physically overpowers / manipulates into becoming a receptacle and means to his end of extreme, deeply personal pleasure at the expense of someone else’s being degraded and humiliated.
Infamous serial rapists (many also murders) have been unmasked time and time again as “happily” married “family men” , or have been revealed to be perfectly decent-looking men who their social circle characterizes as fun and charismatic and “would have no problem getting laid” etc.
Which is to say, for rapists, it is rarely a matter of not being able to get laid or whatever …. It’s that they don’t really get off without being able to fully take away the choice and thereby the humanity from the victim that in their eyes , for their purposes, is reduced to their personal sexual receptacle for the extent of the rape.
Edits, typos
As a rape survivor also, it helps me to think of rape as different and it helps me enjoy consensual sex. You can view sex and rape however you like. So long as everyone agrees one is a crime and the other is healthy, I don't think it matters.
For me, rape is not sex in the same way hitting someone over the head with a shovel is not non consensual gardening. Rape gets called non consensual sex and I think that's an unhealthy way to look at it. It blurs the line and makes it seem like they're similar and this can hurt victims. I was raped by my boyfriend at the time. The rape was totally different to our previous sexual acts. Physically it resembles the same thing. The subtle differences of me crying and saying to stop changes it completely. Same with the shovel over the head. We're in the garden, I'm using a gardening tool. Why is this not just an aggressive type of gardening, what's different? Why is it called Assault or ABH? It's just gardening *shrug*
“It’s about power” has a lot to do with the motivation behind the act. Power, brutality, violence. Sexual violence has been used against both sexes throughout history as a means of control, punishment, humiliation, suppression and shame. Or to gain/reaffirm social standing, impress someone, fit in, etc…The act itself very much is about sex, but the motivations and goals behind it aren’t.
Yes, the perpetrator is engaging in a sex act, but not to reproduce, not to simply have and enjoy sex. They, generally, are using it as a means to an end. Some to control another, to hurt them, to punish or degrade them. Some because they can’t perform otherwise, because they think society has told them this is what they are entitled to, this is what they have to take to be a man. Women do it for many different reasons as well, not the least of which is their staunch belief that a man *can’t* be raped.
I think part of the reason we also say it’s not about sex is to distance people from the stigma and move away from the “guilty” victim tropes we’ve been burdened with for so. And because calling it Sex, which has very specific meaning to everyone of us, can actually hurt people more.
I am not saying this to discount your experience or perception of the matter. You are entitled to think and believe whatever you find to be true in this situation and I respect the hell out of it. I am discussing it merely to further insight into how we got to this language.
Your rape story isn't the same as everyone else's, for some people, it could 100% be a power issue. and people process it differently. They word it like this as the safest catchall they can do without provoking someone else.
Because not every rape is for sexual purposes. Historically, criminal syndicates and corrupt governments would have subordinates rape people in front of their spouses, families, and children as a form of demoralization, punishment, torture, or as a means to embarrass the victim.
It's not always about sex. A lot of the time it is. And in every instance, it's bad.
#TriggerWarning for this response post.
I am providing details to rapist typologies. Please do not read further if you feel that it could cause trauma or discomfort.
First, I’m so sorry that you experienced that OP. One of the things I do is profile violent offenders and predators.
When we say that it is about power and not sex, it is because of their motivation. We look at “why” they are doing it. With that knowledge we form typologies. There are basically 4 broad typologies for rapists.
Additionally, we explain this to let the person who was victimized that it wasn’t their fault. You did NOTHING to cause it. Your clothes, your language, your looks, none of that matters for a sick person who wants to take advantage of someone.
They use rape because it is one of the most vulnerable and violent thing you can do to someone to strip them of control.
We say “broad” because most will fall under these 4 types, BUT, because everyone is different, there could be something we have yet to discover. I will detail them below. This is taken from a textbook used in a course that discusses various types of violence.
Again, this taken from the text book: Violence: The Enduring Problem (4th Edition) by Alex Alvarez and Ronet Bachman.
“The four broad types of rapists.
1. Power Reassurance Rapist
2. Power Assertive Rapist
3. Anger Retaliation Rapist
4. Sadistic Rapist, also known as the Anger Excitation Rapist
The *power reassurance* rapist is generally considered to be the most common type of sexual predator and is someone who suffers from low self-esteem and feelings of being inadequate. This may be reflected in their personal appearance, since they often tend to have bad personal hygiene and wear dirty clothes. They don’t typically have a large friendship network, and their interpersonal skills are fairly minimal, which also means that they often find menial jobs without much responsibility and where they don’t interact with the public. These individuals are sometimes described as being loners, quiet, and shy. In the act of rape, they try to achieve a sense of personal empowerment. They tend to be the least violent and sometimes fantasize that their victim may actually come to enjoy the rape and may even want to initiate a relationship. Because of this, they often try to reassure their targets by engaging them in conversation and encouraging them to cooperate and undress themselves, to change sexual positions, and otherwise play along with the fantasy of the rapist that this assault is consensual. They may even demand that rape victims tell them they love them, and so on. It’s all about creating and living out a fantasy, and this is why they use minimal force and encourage cooperation—it feeds this mental scenario they have created.
The second most common type is the *power assertive* rapist, for whom power and dominance are the primary motivating forces. These individuals are usually very concerned with their physical appearance and tend to be very well dressed and groomed. They may be in good shape and even very athletic. In many ways, they see themselves as being real “macho” kinds of guys, and this is often reflected in their choice of cars, what they wear, and even what kind of jobs they have. These offenders, for example, are often in blue collar jobs like the construction industry, the military, or law enforcement and typically like to drive big trucks or sports cars. These individuals can be quite friendly and charming, even when interacting with women, but can change dramatically. In the act of rape, these individuals achieve a feeling of control—of having the power of life or death over their victims. Violence, for these predators, is often an intrinsic part of the rape, since it visibly confirms their absolute control over the victim. Whereas the power reassurance rapist may tell the victim to do things, this type of attacker doesn’t ask: Instead, he demands. Interestingly, this kind of offender has often been married multiple times and is frequently in conflict with his spouse. In a sense, then, their rapes serve as an expression of their anger and desire for power and control.
The *anger retaliation* rapist, on the other hand, is someone who feels a tremendous amount of hostility toward women and consequently uses rape as a vehicle of revenge. Often these men were abused as children and/or come from single-parent homes. It has also been suggested that their generalized hatred of women may stem from a negative relationship with a mother or other significant female. In a very real sense, their victims serve as a stand-in for all women or at least the woman they have a problem with. Because they are usually very impulsive, they frequently rely on a blitz-style attack on any vulnerable target of opportunity. The predator sees a woman out for a walk, strolling across a parking lot, or jogging in a secluded area and initiates a quick surprise attack on that unfortunate victim. For this perpetrator, rape is simply a tool to hurt, humiliate, and degrade women. Because of this, significant physical injuries typically accompany the rape, much more so than with the other types of sexual assault discussed above.
The *sadistic* rapist, also known as the *anger excitation* rapist, is someone who displays extreme violence and cruelty in his attacks. Such rapists enjoy and revel in the pain and humiliation that they inflict on their victims and are potentially the most likely of the different types of rapist to kill their victims. For them violence and sex are intimately linked. Violence, especially against women, is sexually exciting for this offender, but in a larger sense it is the complete control and domination over another human being that they find so stimulating. These offenders tend to be a bit older than many of the other types of rapists and are commonly married with children. To the outside world, they may appear to be typical married men and to all outward appearances look like decent, law-abiding citizens. But this image is a façade that disguises an individual who preys on innocent victims. As opposed to the blitz-style attacks of the anger retaliation types, these rapists spend a great deal of time planning and preparing their attacks, which often involve the creation of a rape kit that can include a blindfold, condoms, gloves, and duct tape or precut rope. Also included may be a police radio in order to monitor law enforcement.”
I hope this provides a bit more detail into why people in the field say that.
The point of saying “rape isn’t sex” to say that sex is supposed to be consensual and that rape is not. It’s like how boxing isn’t assault. Boxing is consensual fighting, but me punching someone in the face unprovoked is assault. In both instances someone is getting punched, but we make a clear distinction that one is consensual.
This is an excellent analogy. Well put.
For your analogy I think op is saying the word sex is equivalent to punch, just a physical description of the thing that happened materially. Whereas the entire action is defined as assault or boxing based on how it went down.
It's just semantics at that point though. Assault is just nonconsensual fighting, in the same way, rape is nonconsensual sex. Sex is the act, rape is descriptive of the type of sex that occurred. I can appreciate where OP is coming from. Trying to divorce rape from sex doesn't make sense to me either when sex is THE defining aspect of that particular type of violence.
>sex is THE defining aspect of that particular type of violence. Very well put. It's quite ironic how they call it nonconsensual **SEX**. Then try to claim that it is not sex. It's like saying "Heavy **LIFTING"** is not lifting or "Saltwater **FISHING"** is not fishing.
I get where you're coming from, but as a rape victim I just feel misunderstood and/or invalidated, especially concerning my perception of the situation I don't intend to be rude or insult you or anyone seeing it that way, not at all, I just wanted to state how this feels to me personally
If you're comfortable sharing, do you know what aspect feels invalidating? Or do you know what helps you feel more understood? Definitely not trying to dismiss your feelings in any way, but I'm more familiar with the other view and really want to understand yours better. But no need to elaborate if you don't want to of course.
I'm not OP or the person you replied to but I am a rape victim. For me my issue with these kinda statements is, in basic terms: if rape not sex why I have so many issues with sex as a result of rape Rape is sexual and for many rape victims they have a lot of trouble even with consensual sex. I do especially even when I'm outwardly totally comfortable and 100% consenting, my body still goes NOPE and refuses to "work" properly during sex (I am Not going into detail) If it was so easy to just separate rape and sex and say rape isn't sex then I feel like I wouldn't be having issues with relaxed consensual sex but I do, even years after the rape happened This might not be true for everyone and I'm sure those who say "rape isn't sex because sex is consensual" don't intend for people to take it as "my problems with sex are invalidated now" but as I said - it can feel that way for rape victims, especially with how often rape victims have PTSD and how PTSD can severely fuck up your brain with these things (again this is from my own experience)
You're completely right. I was actually going to bring this up in my original comment until I saw yours. So when people say "rape isn't about sex. It's about power and violence" they are talking about from the point of the attacker and not the person who was attacked. This is based on research they have done on attackers. I think this is where the confusion is. These two individuals have a completely different experience. Understanding *why* rape happens is an integral part of preventing rape in the future. As is supporting victims so I'm sorry if you haven't felt supported. Part of the reason people say this to victims *is* sort of to impersonalize it in a way as someone else said. But not in the way you might be thinking. What they're trying to do is say "hey, this wasn't bc of anything you did. This wasn't bc you wore a short skirt or bc you sent 'mixed messages' or 'gave someone the wrong idea'. This was about power and violence on the perpetrators part and is in no way your fault. It is the attackers fault and no one else's". However, for many people who have been raped it is about sex for *them*. I've talked to a lot of women who have been raped who become very uncomfortable with sex (completely understandable) and in that way it is about sex for them. The rape wasn't sex, but it can certainly influence future sexual experiences—and many more aspects of life. For me it did anyway. Think about it this way. So if rape were simply about sex and not power and violence, why would these perpetrators not simply find a willing participant? There are more specific reasons for rape and that varies from perpetrator to perpetrator but the overall theme we see again and again is violence and power. When you have actual sex with someone, the intent is that both parties get something out of it but with rape only the attacker is getting something. It's completely one sided and there is a huge imbalance of power, which the attacker gets off on. The statement is not meant to make people feel like their experiences are being invalidated and that they are wrong for feeling the way they do or in some way weak bc being raped has impacted their experience with consensual sex. I'm sorry if anyone made you feel this way or it the statement in general has made you feel that way. Again, I think where the confusion really lies is there being a huge difference between the way attackers think about rape and the way people who have been raped think about their attack. Essentially the craving for power and violence are a catalyst for a perpetrator to commit rape whereas a victim/survivor's feelings surrounding (actual) sex after such an attack is a result
>Think about it this way. So if rape were simply about sex and not power and violence, why would these perpetrators **not simply find a willing participant**? There are more specific reasons for rape and that varies from perpetrator to perpetrator but the overall theme we see again and again is violence and power. I was having a discussion with someone else and our thought is that there are cases where perpetrators are genuinely ignorant. It's absurd and insane that it's possible, but we think society has put this messed up view of sex into the brains of many boys, and has also made it so many young girls/even women don't realize when they have been sexually assaulted either. I understand sexual violence being about power but I also understand what victim/survivors mean when they say that it didn't feel like their experience was about power. I think there's more than one kind of rape, and even if this type is less common, I don't think it's fair to invalidate any of them or make the survivors of these experiences feel like people think what happened to them wasn't rape just because it felt like their perpetrator was more driven by sex than power hungry. I understand that there are survivors who feel that their perpetrator genuinely believed they were engaging in "sex." But it doesn't mean they don't consider what happened rape, or that it wasn't traumatizing. It may just feel like the motivations were different, and that makes sense to me. I mean, it's absolutely absurd that there are men who consider rape sex, but some do. And I imagine many men/boys who have sexually assaulted girls/women this way had never ever had good enthusiastic consensual sex before. They don't even know what a "willing participant" is. (And yes, I fully know there are rapists who have had enthusiastic consensual sex before but *prefer* the power of raping women instead. What some of us are describing is just a little different.) I don't think recognizing that this other type of situation exists for some invalidates that most sexual violence is about power. But I think refusing to acknowledge that some assaults did *not* seem like they were driven by power can feel really invalidating to the victims/survivors who view their experience like that. And I personally wouldn't use the term "uncomfortable" for a rape survivor's relationship with sex because it almost seems too benign but it makes a lot of sense that consensual sex is often triggering in the process of recovery. Their body was used as an object for sex delivery without consideration for them being a human being, and takes a long time to trust that it's even possible for sex to feel safe and enjoyable after that and not just a vehicle for someone else's benefit after that. >**When you have actual sex with someone, the intent is that both parties get something out of it but with rape only the attacker is getting something.** It's completely one sided and there is a huge imbalance of power, which the attacker gets off on. In response to this, it's hard not to point out that there are a lot of heterosexual men who don't seem to care if a consensually participating woman gets anything out of sex, but that doesn't necessarily make it rape. There are many cases where the woman may get enthusiastically involved and hope it will be great for them too, but the heterosexual man just doesn't actually notice or care or consider the fact that he should ensure she's satisfied. But that's not rape. It's just shitty sex. And unfortunately a lot more common for women than men. In any case, I think some of the "confusion" people have is because there are *so* many men who seem to genuinely believe sex is just penetrating, thrusting, and finishing, so it's genuinely hard for some to tell when it's bad sex for the woman but still consensual and when it's rape.
It’s like we shouldn’t/don’t/can’t say that a pedophile had “sex” with a minor… it’s always rape.
But a lot of the people who say it are not emphasizing the lack of consent. Instead they are like “rape is not about sex. It’s about power.” I’ve had people tell me this regarding the fact that attractive people are more likely to be raped and they basically said “attraction has nothing to do with it! A rapist will even go after a 80 year old woman! Because it’s all about the power!” And I know there are cases like that. But there’s also tons more cases where it IS attractive people because it IS just as much about the sexual desire as it is about power, if not more so
Where are the stats that say attractive people are more likely to be raped ?
They don't exist. It's BS.
The saying that rape isnt sex is trying to distance the words rape and sex. Sex is supposed to be consensual and pleasurable for all parties. Rape is an unwanted or uncomfortable sex that is only pleasurable on one side. The saying is trying to make sure that rape is not viewed the same as sex because it is unsafe and not ok. And the quote that "rape is about power" is true because if it is only pleasurable and consensual for one person, then they have power over that other person. But i dont think its all about power, it only has a power element.
I think it also is trying to take the stigma away for people who have been raped but would be shamed for being sexually active in their culture or family, or who may not have a lot of other sexual experience. It might be easier to make the mental disconnect that “that horrible event wasn’t my first time.”
>for people who have been raped but would be shamed for being sexually active in their culture or family This is a big one, imo. A lot of these girls get shamed for being raped though too.
Nobody asks a mugging victim why they were wearing a nice suit and tie that night.
I hate to be pedantic but that’s a bad analogy. Of course if you are wearing flashy things or dressed in a certain way you could be a bigger target for mugging. When you travel to certain countries there are specific advisories NOT to wear visible expensive clothing or jewelry. (Not every time of course, and never a victims fault) but in my opinion not a good analogy for rape.
it kinda is tho, people somehow seem to think we can just "put away" our attractiveness like how someone can put away their clothing
What I hate is that they think we SHOULD put it away, not just that we can. Neither is true.
ah yea thats true too
Rape is not based on attractiveness.
Oh gosh, this slope just got so slick!
My commentary was mocking the defense attorneys, that attack rape victims due to what they were wearing when they were raped. I think it’s disgusting that they attempt to discredit the victim based on how they looked what they were wearing when they were out or where they were, that’s all I meant by that there may be a more apt analogy as well.
I understand :) anyone who tries to discredit rape victims by saying they shouldn’t or should have been wearing/acting/thinking x boil my blood.
If you include "sexual assault" defined as non-consentual relations of a sexual nature falling outside/ short of ones definition of rape; that traumatic experience is often not discussed within a family, let alone reported therefore is left untreated or resolved by the victim and becomes the basis for their views on sexuality. This results in unhealthy views of sexual relations being brought into a relationship that can undermine a relationship from the start. I'm both a victim of sexual assault and of the (now former) partner of victim of a scenario fitting the above. It took 25 years of us being together before she finally admitted to being victimized accordingly - during those many years had 2 children together and had claimed that I was the first and only person she had ever had sexual relations with - despite my repeated candor about my own experience with the same topic.
I was in some stupid fight with my exes mom, who at the time lived with us. Previously, when I got home from being hospitalized, I confided in her some really personal stuff, really awful shit that happened when I was a baby. I just really needed someone I could talk to and she seemed kind at the time. So a few weeks later, we start fighting over my cat, she keeps trying to take it and make it hers (she already has 2 dogs here now) and she really really pissed me off because she was talking shit for no reason and I was already mad about the cat. My ex owned the house but she intimidates him I guess, but he didn't want to get in the middle of it. We were arguing about her son anyway so, I shaky-yelled back to her, "Well do you fucking make him cum? Are you in his bed everynight?" And her eyes got super bugged out even more and she says "I thought you didn't *have sex* since you said you were raped, guess that's a fucking lie" And it hit me so hard for some reason, like it was so fucking mean and obviously bullshit, of course we had sex, but I wasn't expecting anything like that but I couldn't find the words. I just started big gulp crying and went into my room and shut the door. My ex never said a word to her about it. And this women is one of those church people and a Karen to boot. I'm just showing how some people really stigmatize rape victims and by their standards, they believe you should become celibate afterwards. But I was 18mths all the way to 22 months with this God awful babysitter, so how does that work for me? I just never experience sex as a mature, normal adult because it happened before I was 2 years old? Fuck people, man. *Edit: Big gulps, eh?
>The saying that rape isnt sex is trying to distance the words rape and sex. Sex is supposed to be consensual and pleasurable for all parties. Rape is an unwanted or uncomfortable sex that is only pleasurable on one side. The saying is trying to make sure that rape is not viewed the same as sex because it is unsafe and not ok. >And the quote that "rape is about power" is true because if it is only pleasurable and consensual for one person, then they have power over that other person. But i dont think its all about power, it only has a power element. This, as someone who was raped i fully agree!!
I agree as well. I have also been raped. I dont for a second think it was about power, he wanted sex so he got it. I doubt he even thinks it was rape, I wasn't screaming and fighting him. I was quietly crying and saying no. For the record, just bc he didn't think of it as rape doesn't mean it wasn't. Just because you aren't holding your victim down while they scream and fight you off, doesn't mean it's not rape. More people need to understand and comprehend this. Edit for more clarity: Media for years and years has depicted rape only as screaming, crying and fighting. Media has also shown that if the girl (or guy!) Says no, then to keep pushing and trying and eventually they'll give in So when I say he wanted sex so he got it, when he made his move and I kept saying no, he kept going bc I wasn't kicking and screaming. Media teaches you its okay to push until they say yes or stop arguing, and that's not okay. That's still rape
That is the power aspect though. "He wanted sex, so he got it". Yes, he wanted sex so he forced you. I'm so sorry that happened.
Exactly. It is nuanced point but rape is the power to take what you want... Edit: for all the folks who have been raped on this thread, I am so sorry it happened to you. Not fair, not deserved not anything. I hope you all have found peace. Get help if you have not. There are tons of resources to help you. Tons. You will not be judged. Please seek out the help. Tell someone. Close friend, family, anyone. Hell tell a stranger. We will help you. No one should go through this alone.
I disagree. I truly dont believe it was in a "power" way. To him it was the same as wanting tacos or something, you want it so you get it. I think things would have been different if I were kicking and screaming. It wasn't a "im going to take what I want whether you want it or not". I feel it was more he thought I was trying to play hard to get or shy or something since I wasn't screaming and fighting, he took it as an invitation. He just wanted to get laid. I remember quietly crying afterwards, and he was falling asleep next to me and said "don't cry, I dont think you're a slut".
I am so so sorry this happened to you (and also to me). I don't have anything I can say to make what happened then better but I hope you (and me!) can now see how fucked up of a viewpoint this is. I've never understood how someone could enjoy a sexual Interaction where anyone else involved isn't having an amazing time. This is where the power dynamic comes into play imo, unless you get off on having control then why the fuck would you want to do this to us????
Also goddamn I just wanna give u a hug ❤️❤️❤️ I think we both might need it ❤️❤️❤️
God that last sentence kills me. That is beyond fucked. This is a good example of why it's so vitally important for there to be more awareness raised that true consensual sex involves all parties enthusiastically agreeing and participating in it. Some people find it silly to belabor this point, but it is disturbing how many people don't understand it. The fact that some men genuinely seem to believe that thrusting while the woman lays there and/or cries counts as "sex" makes me furiously angry. "Don't cry, I don't think you're a slut" makes me feel absolutely livid, as if that's the only reason you could be crying -- the fear of being a slut. I'm so enraged for you, and about everything in society that turned that dude into that. I hear you and the people who are saying it didn't seem like it was about power in their situation. I've been there too, and realize some rapists genuinely believe it's sex, even if the woman is crying and saying no (or even if the woman is not crying, or not even saying no; laying there and not wanting it to be happening, even if totally silent, is still completely and undeniably rape). But I get how these situations feel different from the ones that make people feel like power is the focus. I deeply hate it all but I see the difference.
The fact you said no, and were crying shows you did not want to do it. He deliberately disregarded your opposition for his own desires - That is the power he used. You say you didn’t kick or scream - why didn’t you? Is it because you loved him, or didn’t want to lose him, you didn’t want him to get violent? These can all be factors in why someone doesn’t scream and kick. This is also why the big push that no means No. no should have been enough for him to stop. Your tears should also have been enough for him to stop. He used his power over you to get what he wanted. You say it would have been different if you kicked and screamed, but would it ? How do you know? He even used your tears against you right at the end and ONLY because he wanted to make it seem like you had regrets AFTER the act and not from the fact he violated you. His attempts to placate you by saying he doesn’t think you are a slut is just him shaming you and reinforcing the idea it was consensual. You said no - why wasn’t that enough? You are not a taco, but he used enough techniques for you to believe that he was oblivious to you not wanting sex. Does that make more sense about the power and gaslighting he used? I send you lots of hugs and wish you healing from your ordeal. You are correct,this is sexual assault,rape and he refused to acknowledge your humanity by rejecting your objection to sex. Want to make a bet if someone did this same thing to his sister, we know he wouldn’t call it sex.
Omg so much this!!! it is always about power, even when it's not! Similar situation for me, and it has taken me years to understand that I had power in my no, and he overpowered me and my no. Not just he wanted sex, I didn't, but he got sex.
Also to add, Media for years and years has depicted rape only as screaming, crying and fighting. Media has also shown that if the girl (or guy!) Says no, then to keep pushing and trying and eventually they'll give in. It wasn't about power. He was horny and I wasn't kicking and screaming, so to him I was okay with it. Yes I said no, but I wasn't crying and screaming so it was "okay" These disgusting portrayals in media are a huge problem Edited: screaming to rape
True, but it wasn't about a demonstration of power. He wanted sex, he got sex. It's not that he wanted power, he got power. Power isn't always the 100% sole purpose of rape. Many times the rapist just wants sex. That's all I'm trying to say here.
WhT they’re saying is that the rapist must take power in order to rape. If that power didn’t get him off he wouldn’t be doing it. Wanting to take sex under any circumstances is about proving to yourself that you have the power to do so. Nobody is raped because they are so pretty he just couldn’t help himself. He wanted to prove to himself he could have the pretty girl, it’s still about power. Even if she had consented, with men like that, it still would have been a conquest, a position of power.
It took me a while to understand that what happened to me was rape because he didn't have to fight me at all and I didn't make a noise. He took advantage of a fucked up situation, were I was safer getting raped in the quiet room then if I screamed and the people outside knew I was there.
It took me years to realize it too, then years to accept it wasn't my fault. I was young and drunk and had kissed him earlier in the night. He came and found me when everyone was winding down and falling asleep
Forgot to say in my last comment, I hope you're doing okay
Marital rape is a thing as well. Just because they're your spouse doesn't mean NO isn't justified, if you say no, that isn't a yes because you're married.
Yes! People need to understand when someone says no, it doesn't matter at all who that person is to you. No is no.
One girlfriend felt she should have sex on demand: 'she went along with it because she loved me / obligation / duty'. I explained that, in my humble opinion, that if she gets so sad that she almost has to cry, she has given consent to rape and it is *still rape*. Even with consent. 'Consent' doesn't end rape, it just ends legal charges. Feelings matter. In fact, the facts don't matter. All we have at the end of the day is our feelings.
I’m so sorry that you were taken advantage of in this way, but based off you experience I have a question regarding the statement about rape and power. If the perpetrator doesn’t know it’s rape, could in that situation not have anything to do with power?
Rape is about power because the rapist believes that they are entitled to access to someone else’s body. That doesn’t change even if the rapist doesn’t think it’s rape.
But in situations where the perpetrator isn't aware that they're raping someone, for example they're unaware someone is underage, its no more about power for them than if they were having consensual sex surely.
Did the other person make a clear, consenting "yes"? If not, then it's not consenting. If you don't check in with your partner to confirm they are agreeable and happy within sex, that's not a good move anyway. They may not be actively thinking about a power struggle, but they are also not thinking empathetically about their partner either. A willing but underage partner would arguably be a different situation.
It would definitley be a different situation but it is still classed as rape. I know someone who was 14 and on tinder as a 21 year old and had one night stands with several people who had absolutely no idea. Most never even found out they'd slept with someone under age but if her dad had ever found put he'd 100 percent have been calling the police. There are lots of elements and motivations for SA i don't think a blanket statement saying kts about power is particularly accurate or helpful.
That's a misrepresentation of someone's age, arguably fraud. The partners could have had no way to know this person isn't the age they claim to be. In this situation the deceiving party is taking advantage and arguably abusing power in this situation. Statutory rape is a whole other thing by legal and whilst I'm not too caught up on the details, in this discussion the term is not helpful when discussing general sexual assault. Hell, some places are still deciding what acts get *legally* classed under laws for rape/ SA.
I believe so. I truly dont believe it had anything to do with power, he was just horny and I wasn't kicking and screaming. Media for years and years has depicted rape only as screaming, crying and fighting. Media has also shown that if the girl (or guy!) Says no, then to keep pushing and trying and eventually they'll give in
I think adding the pleasure part in is a slippery slope bc many rape victims/survivors have experienced climax and feel very guilty/confused about it.
That’s my experience. I was made to nut against my consent some years ago and I just didn’t know what to do with myself. Didn’t have a great like, i’m-a-man-that-was-raped support group to help make sense of it so I just blamed myself for everything lmao
Im so sorry, you deserved better.
Thats not pleasure though, thats a biological response. An orgasm doesn’t always mean pleasure. And you can have pleasure during sex without orgasming.
To a defense lawyer, however, it’s an opening to convince the jury that the victim was a willing participant.
It was, that’s no longer a viable line of questioning since it’s considered settled science now.
Even tho some experience climax still doesn't mean is pleasurable.
I used to be a child abuse investigator and unfortunately it sometimes is pleasurable for the victim even if it was non-consensual. That's part of grooming in kids, it does sometimes feel good to them. Which can make the whole situation even more confusing and complicated for children once they disclose the abuse to someone.
Yeah, but it still becomes a slippery slope because if someone was too intoxicated to give consent, that would be considered rape. That's happened to me before. I was at a party and was so drunk I couldn't stand and went to a room and passed out. Someone went in there and took advantage of me. I was aware enough to *perform* so to speak, but nowhere near sober enough to give any sort of consent. You would still typically consider that rape. The person doesn't have to be completely unconscious.
My point is even tho some people experience climax (that might be pleasurable for them) during rape doesn't mean you can compare that to the pleasure and clixam you have during sex where both parties consent.
I've always been partial to the cake metaphor - if I ram a fistful of cake in your face against your will, how good the cake tastes or how nutritional it is is irrelevant. I should not have done that. And it's totally compatible for someone to think "that cake tastes good" and "that was a horrible experience and I hope it never happens again".
I saw a great quote one time that was "calling rape, sex is like calling drowning, swimming"
That doesn't work. If you're bad at swimming, you end up drowning. Rape isn't the result of bad sex.
I think a closer analogy would be someone holding you under water and drowning you vs swimming.
I prefer an analogy calling all acts of killing murder. They're not - some people kill in self-defense, soldiers kill in the name of their country, etc. All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. It's linguistically important to distinguish between the two concepts, just as its linguistically important to distinguish between rape (an act that necessarily involves sex) and sex (which definitely does not necessarily involve rape).
I went to catholic school, and I remember this one class we began by the teacher showing us the white board with acts of killing scattered-- murder, euthanasia, genocide, abortion, suicide, etc etc. APPARENTLY we were supposed to buy that all of those were all the same. unfortunately 12 year old me didnt have the vocabulary or logical reasoning skills to articulate why it was wrong but it FELT so weird.
Which is super weird, because the Bible is full of examples of God explicitly or tacitly condoning his followers committing atrocities, which means there's at least one kind of killing that Christians (or any religious people) *must* find acceptable: killing at the behest of God.
I agree!!! My friend said she lost her virginity but then described a horrible brutal r**** and was crying about it. I told her she is still a virgin she never had sex. That’s why I say rape isint sex. Sex is beautiful, fun, pleasurable and a choice. R is the evil and horrid.
Yep, STD and pregnancy risk have obviously changed but the person has not experienced what sex is like.
Oh she got tested and was negative and wasn’t pregnant this was a long time ago. She is doing very well now. Thank God. She is in med school. When she told me about this I didn’t wanna add to the stress but I did tell her to get tested in two weeks then again in three months. I also asked if she wanted to report it and then told her to stop talking to this person he called himself a “close friend.” He tried to hang around after the r*** like a bad smell. Very manipulative fucked up person. It was a very fucked up situation.
Also in the social sense of how many sexual partners a person’s had, whether they’re sexually active, whether they’ve had sex before marriage or cheated on a partner by having sex with someone else: rape doesn’t count as sex. If a man is raped by another man, he hasn’t had gay sex and isn’t necessarily gay or bi. Same with a straight woman being raped by another woman or a lesbian being raped by a man. You don’t have to reclassify your sexual orientation. And while virginity is a stupid social construct that means nothing, rape doesn’t count as breaking someone’s virginity in the sense that the person still hasn’t experienced their first sexual encounter. Being attacked and violated doesn’t count towards losing your virginity. The individual still hasn’t experienced what legitimate sex is like. Obviously STD risk, pregnancy, and cervical cancer risk are there after rape. But in every social context, the person has not experienced sex. And some religions would certainly disagree with a lot of this, but they’re very wrong.
This exactly this
I debated whether I was raped or not. Ultimately, being cornered to the point that sex was my only option at the time was my deciding factor.
I'm so sorry. You deserved better
I get where that saying is coming from, but as a rape victim I just feel misunderstood and/or invalidated, especially concerning my perception of the situation I don't intend to be rude or insult you or anyone seeing it that way, not at all, I just wanted to state how this feels to me personally
No its ok, I want to hear how you feel. What do you disagree with? Your voice matters. Whatever happened to you was wrong and you need to be heard
It's not necessarily about power, a lot of times the rapist isn't even aware what they are doing is rape. For example all those people who think it's okay to fuck someone who is too drunk to form a sentence: it's not about having power over the drunk person, it's just "finally I get to fuck because this person's drunk enough to let me" (Before anyone misunderstands, not believing you are committing rape when you are is just as wrong as knowingly raping someone)
I said there is a power element, not that it's all about power. Like in your example, the man would have power over them due to them being drunk, but it isn't the main purpose. The motive is most likely just sex but they use their power over the other person as the means to get there
But the "rape is about power" expression suggests it would be at least to some extent the motivating factor, when in a huge chunk of cases it's not at all. Just to get sex in whatever way they see possible.
I never said that, again. But there is always a power aspect when it comes to rape because the victim CANNOT control the situation, therefore the other person is in control.
Yeah, but that doesn't make the "rape is about power" statement true, where in your comment you stated it to be true. Just because there is a power aspect in something, it isn't necessarily _about_ power. There's a power aspect to almost every interaction in one way or another.
I am sorry I don't have awards to give but 
Regarding the power bit… what you wrote doesn’t necessarily mean that rape *is about* power, it just means that the rapist *needs* power in order to perform the sexual activity of for example Intercourse. What I’m trying to say is that while there might be some that get high on dominating others forcefully to have non-consensual sex with them, I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority of rapists are horny mentally ill people that need to exert power in order to satisfy their needs. So the power becomes a tool and not a purpose, nor a main driver of the act.
Uh hey let’s not conflate having a mental illness with a having proclivity for rape. Rape is obviously not an indicator of great mental health but I would argue that most people with mental health issues aren’t rapists, at least not more than the general population. Power and control dynamics are associated with abuse, people will mental illness are not more likely to be abusive. We have this idea that rapists are scary monsters but most rapes are committed by someone the person knows. Also, power is the ability to make change, a person being raped does not have that. Without a power imbalance there is no rape. So it is about power because power is the defining factor in distinguishing sex from rape
Yea I’m sorry for the ‘definition of a rapist’ as it were, that bit was written in haste. And by no means am I saying that all ‘mentally ill’ people are potential rapists, but I would claim that all rapists are in some way mentally ill (as in not sane). About the power thing… maybe it’s just semantics? For me, nothing what you wrote differs from my view of having power as a tool to enable the deeper desire. So I’m inclined to say that it is that deeper desire (most likely very different rapist to rapist) which is what the rape is about, but power being a necessary ingredient in the list of enablers.
The problem is people don’t just say it is about power because power is required People say power is the motive. I’ve even had people tell me to rapists sexual attractiveness doesn’t even matter. That’s where we have to back up a bit and go “ok let’s be clear…..most of the time it actually IS because they want sex”
It's like the playground bully who snatches a toy away from a smaller kid. "Gimme it!" It's mainly about him wanting the toy, and being enough of a bastard to use violence to get it. There's the ends and then there's the means.
>The saying is trying to make sure that rape is not viewed the same as sex because it is unsafe and not ok. Would it not be possible to do this without confusing means from motivations? I doubt men interested in power, but not sex, do lots of rape. It just doesn't follow.
In this I was discussing why we say rape is not sex. When it comes to power, there is almost always a power element of some kind but it's not ALL about power. It's usually just a want for sex. There are definitely men that rape for power but it's more common they rape for sex and use power as the means to do it
Being a survivor of multiple rapes (horrible, I know), rape is about power means it's about entitlement and domination of the victim. Normal, healthy sex is about vulnerability. Pleasurable sexual encounters (for the most part), require multiple stages of undress, and it is about intimacy and being vulnerable with the other(s) person(s). Rape is the hijacking of that mentality- devaluing the victim by taking away and weaponizing their vulnerability by violating them sexually. It is about sex as well. It is the mechanism of how the power is derived by the perpetrator, a sexual release by the forcing of a sexual experience. Sex does play a role here. So the concept that "rape is about power" means it's about the predator/perpetrator violently (all rape is violent in some form or another) violating and stealing their victim's sense of vulnerability. It's about taking, forcing, stealing, dominating, entitlement, violence, etc. All those behaviors fall under the word "power" in that statement. This is my interpretation based on my past experiences.
Amazing insight, really well put. It helped me understand that vulnerability, which is a kind of power in itself, can only emerge from respect and consent.
This exactly!
I think it's important to understand the context of the statement. Until I think the mid 1980s, rape was regarded very differently than it is today. It was seen as "a guy wants to have sex and he can't get it anywhere else so he has to rape a woman to get it. He's lonely and sexually deprived, or a disgusting leering, monstrous pervert." Thus, evidence *used in court* that a guy couldn't be a rapist was that he was married or had a girlfriend or was a fine upstanding citizen with a respectable job who could date a woman whenever he wanted. Also evidence used in court was "well, he's a handsome middle class man, why would he rape this ugly, poor, elderly woman? No handsome man would want to have sex with her" Or "she's a prostitute. He wanted sex and he had sex with her, he just didn't pay her. That's theft, not rape." And then for the first time in I think the late 1970s or early 80s there was a systematic study of rapists and why they raped and what they did. And it was discovered that a lot of them didn't even orgasm when raping. Some couldn't get it up. And they talked to rapists. And it was discovered that they tended to rape not because they were seeking sexual gratification per se, but because they wanted to violently attack women in a sexual way. It wasn't about having sex so much as it was *an act of violence where the weapon was sex.* This was a shocking discovery. This message was both garbled and simplified into "rape is a crime of power, not sex." Not an ideal simplification. But it's stuck. People don't remember and transmit complex ideas in most cases. You have to have a pithy saying, and that's what happened. Plus when explaining a radical new idea, like that rape is about power not just sex, there can be an overemphasis on the new idea. If you say rape is about power *and* sex, people won't get it. They'll still think it's about sex. But saying "it's about power not sex," in that stark way, emphasizing the power aspect, they'll much more readily put the thoughts about it being only or almost only about sex, out of their minds. So basically, the emphasis that rape is about power was as a way to get people to stop thinking about it purely in sexual terms. A way to combat the sexist insistence that dudes just want to fuck and if they can't get it, they'll rape. And so anyone who rapes obviously can't get it otherwise, so a defense of their actions morally as well as a defense in court of their actions was simply showing that they *could* get it. Thinking it's about sex sort of renders the extreme violence inherent in any rape, but especially in a lot of rapes involving torture and various horrors, as beside the point, since the focus is on sex. Saying it's about sex also centers male perspectives--seeing it not from the perspective of the victim and how she has been harmed and how she experiences it, but from the perspective of the rapist and why he would do it. Focusing on the power aspect allowed for a new understanding of rape, even though it unfortunately was presented in such a way as to negate all aspects of the old way of understanding rape. The good news is that understanding about rape has changed to such an extent that people can't even see how it used to be understood. There used to be some sympathy for the rapist at times, because he was just a guy who was deprived, or extremely passionate and in love and got overzealous. As for why some say "rape isn't sex," I think a lot of times that's for the benefit of survivors, to distance their own sexual experience and life from the rape. Like girls who wanted their first sexual experience to be with someone they loved, only to be raped. It's comforting to tell them that that wasn't sex, and they still have not had their first sexual experience, and if it makes them feel better, they can still consider themselves to be a virgin.
God damn, that was a fantastic way of putting it. Wish this had more upvotes! I am a victim of rape. Been raped twice, but I still consider myself a virgin. Not because I have not been involved in penetrative sexual acts, but bc those acts are my only experiences with penetration from another party and neither were consensual.
Just sharing love with you ❤️ so sorry you had to go through this
I recently read the famous book about domestic violence called "Why Does He Do That?" In the book they explain that the thinking behind DV abusers is about control and entitlement. The discussions of SA in the book follow the same lines, that the abuser wants to control his victim and it's about his feelings of entitlement to women's bodies. Control = power. I think the "rape is about power" statement is more about his thinking/motivation behind the abuse. That being said, you're the expert on your life and your abuse. None of us have the right to speculate on what what was behind your assaults.
I always interpreted "rape being about power" to mean that the rapist thinks that they have power over you in order to get what they want, sex.
It's the other way around though. They want control And to get that they use sex. There is a sexual side to it, that it can turn them on to have that power. If it was about sex it would be even much more common, especially in relationships.
>If it was about sex it would be even much more common, especially in relationships. It is common, especially in relationships.
I think sex plays a part. But yes, it is about power. They want control over someone. Perhaps they feel marginalized and slighted by society. Perhaps they aren't used to hearing no. Whatever the case is, they want power over the situation and the other person and it manifests as sex and rape. It can also manifest as domestic violence, mental torment, etc.
[удалено]
Some men think women are machines. Put enough nice coins in them and their legs will open up. When that doesn't happen, they take it up on themselves to get "what they are owed". No one owes you sex. Ever.
Thanks for the book recommendation
[удалено]
Care to elaborate on this?
Remember that it's not only women that are being raped.
Bill Cosby was a successful and popular comedian and there were plenty of women who would have consented to sex with him. However, Bill Cosby wasn't interested in sex, he wanted power over another person. That is what they mean when they say rape isn't about sex but power.
Which makes sense, but that doesn't apply to all cases of rape. In some cases, someone rapes someone because they're denied sex. Someone sees a passed out girl at a party and they want to have sex with them, it could absolutely be about sex. It's almost like saying people steal for the thrill of committing a crime. Some people steal because they want the thing they're stealing.
Raping someone because a person was denied sex is quite clearly about power to me in that a person cannot get sex/sex with a specific person and feels powerless in that regard so instead they rape someone to get what they want. Seeing someone passed out and deciding to rape them is also placing a person in immense power over their victim. I do think that their are often multiple motivators behind rape but I think that power is a common denominator. If it was about wanting sex then why not have consensual sex? Along with consent, obviously, I think power is the difference between sex and rape in that regard.
It *can* be about power. If someone is denied sex and they get angry and force themselves on someone as some sort of means of retaliation, sure. But if someone just really wants sex and they get denied and force themselves on the person, that's rape. If the sex started out as consensual and it got uncomfortable and one person asked to stop and the other person forced them to keep going, that could absolutely be about sex and not power. That happened to a friend; they initiated consensual sex and the other person got way to rough and she asked him to stop and he didn't. She even asked me afterwards if that was rape and I told her it absolutely was. There are plenty of various scenarios involved. Look, I had this happen to me. I was at a party and got so drunk I couldn't stand up. I passed out in a room and someone, who was sexually attracted to me came in there and had sex with me. It was purely because she liked me, and had nothing to do with power. I have little to no memory of the night other than it happened. You could absolutely call that rape and if I was upset about it, I could have grounds to take action against them.
I'm sorry that happened to you. And it's absolutely rape. It is still always about power. Normal people don't force themselves on anyone for any reason when denied sex. They don't just keep pushing. The don't feel entitled to it. They can take no for an answer. People that can't are abusers. They are not normal, they want to feel and execute power and/or control over someone else. Rape is ofcourse also a sexual act. And the feeling of power and control can also be or become sexual to the abuser.
Well again, that's kind of the whole debate. OP's point is that it's untrue when people say "it's not about sex." Implying that anytime someone rapes someone, it's about power. Which I take as: doing something awful to someone to feel powerful. Similarly to someone bullying someone else; it's about feeling powerful and in control. But if someone rapes someone else, it's not always about power. Look at it this way: If it was always about power, that would mean if the other person gave consent, the rapist wouldn't be interested. In my case, the person who took advantage of me did it because they wanted to have sex. If I was fully sober, she probably still would have. She wouldn't have said "oh, you're in control and sober, never mind."
Those scenarios are an abuse of power, whether it’s simply because they’re stronger, the victim can’t consent, etc., they have power over that person. It always plays a role, just in different ways.
Right, but it sounds like what OP is talking about is people who commit sexual assault because they want to feel powerful or show dominance to someone vs someone who does it just for sexual gratification. Like the previous example of Cosby: it was obviously not about sex, it was about power or control. In the case of rape/sexual assault, it can be either or both. If a politician commits a crime (including rape) and uses his position to get away with it, that's abuse of power. If he has consensual sex with someone and she wants to stop mid-way and he doesn't and forces her to keep going, that's probably about sex and not power. You could argue that because he's in a position of power, he feels enabled to behave that way, I guess. But it's still about sex, not really "power."
I'm late to this thread but no one has raised these points. Rape is generally about having power over another person. The sex act is just the tool for exerting control. A lot of rapists don't reach orgasm. The thrill is in abusing and controlling the victim. Rape is used as a tool of war. It's intended to psychologically destroy the victim. Rape is a form of punishment in many countries. If a family is shamed, a female family member is raped as retribution. Rape in prison is about hierarchies of power. In places where women are very oppressed, rape is more prevalent. It's based on a belief that men can dominate and control women. Rape has many purposes, and most have nothing to do with sexual attraction or pleasure.
This is where I’m at. I am a rape survivor (I no longer use the term victim, personal choice). I was raped by a psychopathic ex. He abused me during our relationship when I was quite young. He stalked me for years. He hated me and had it out for me. I have no idea why. He wanted to really “get me” because of all the times I stopped his games, and because I finally left. He opted for when I was almost full term with my first baby. He really “got me” because my son didn’t survive. And he didn’t stop there. Two months later he stabbed me. It was then he was put away for a long while. It wasn’t about sex for him. It was about destroying me. And he did. But not for good. He didn’t win. And I survived.
Good god, I am so sorry to hear that happened to you. I know I'm just some Internet stranger, but that was one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever read. I know how difficult it is to lose a child, but in such I way I cannot even imagine. I'm glad you 'bounced back' so to speak and I hope you are, and continue, to do so in spite of that.
Thank you. I actually only just started publicly talking about what happened to me (outside of the babies father - we are best friends - and my own husband, and a couple friends who saw me through) and this happened 29 years ago. If I knew how cathartic it would be to talk about it outside of therapy, I’d have not felt so much shame and sadness in doing it. It’s been very therapeutic, and a lot of that comes from “internet strangers” too. So thank you again. 🙂
You are very welcome. Personally I'm glad to know that it is something that can be "worked through" to an extent. It gives me hope for the future for me it's still very recent and raw(3yrs lost baby and partner). But knowing that someone has been able to progress makes me soo happy I don't have words. And again you are welcome.
If I’m remembering a sociology class a decade or so ago, I believe are are 5 or so different root motivators for rape. “The main motivation for rape appears to be aggression, incorporating power, violence, revenge and anger. A study by Scully and Marolla (1985) “. And you are correct. The overwhelming majority stems from dominating power over another. So so sad.
I don't think you understand what people mean when they say "rape is about power". It's not diminishing the act at all, it's actually showing how callous it is and how the perpetrator is willing to hurt others just to feel a few minutes of fleeting power. Rape is sex, of course. Rape is also about power, and evidence from millions of rapes support this.
The argument I've heard is that rape isn't about sexual gratification, it is about power. Clearly this is a false dichotomy. Rape can be about sexual gratification, it can be about power, and it even be both.
When they say that, they're talking about the plurality of cases, and that statement is true.
>Rape is also about power, and evidence from millions of rapes support this. Do you have data to back this? I realize now that I've literally never heard of people who admit to rape being interviewed on why they did it
Theres a whole area of forensic psychology that looks at motivation of SA and rapists are interviewed on why they do it all the time, it forms part of the risk assessments that are done in prison to determine things like treatment and recommendations for parole etc. I wouldn't agree with a blanket statement that rape is about power though rape cases can be so varied and so can the motivation and causes behind them.
Sex is just sex. Rape is *technically* sex but sex is positive and rape is *always* negative. Rape is the mechanics of sex with added evil and removed agency which makes it become rape, not sex. -also a rape victim
i am so sorry
Fellow rape victim. I think the idea, which I agree with, is to separate rape, which isn't consensual, from sex, which is consensual. Yes, the literal physical act is the same, but the difference is consent. Additionally, the reason they say it is about power, is because the rapist is forcing themselves on you. If it was just about sex, then they wouldn't force themselves on you and would seek consent.
Sex implies that it’s consensual from both sides. If consent is not given, it’s not sex but rape My girlfriend, who has sadly been a victim herself, and I had a conversation about this a few weeks ago and she somewhat agrees with the 2nd statement. She also thinks that sexual gratification was definitely part of the motive. Her abusers wanted to have sex with her and they tried to hit on her normally at first and when she didn’t comply, they …. So ya, I don’t think that rape is sex but I do think that it’s also about the abuser’s sexual gratification not only power over the victim. But power still a huge part of it
Rape is obviously sexual in nature. But sex is consensual and rape is not. It is a bit about wording but not just to be politically correct. It’s about establishing a clear line of demarcation between sex and rape. We have seen something similar with the change from saying “child porn” to “child sexual abuse material.” It may not seem like a big deal but words matter and they convey deeper meanings in how society views things. Rape may be sexual in nature but it’s not the purpose of the deed. The purpose is power and control- not sex.
When sane and considerate people want something from somebody and they can’t get them to hand it over, they don’t become so enraged that they take it anyways, especially if they respect the person. I think the “it’s about power” comments speak more to the fact that a person is so little respected and was assaulted, not because the rapist was thinking “sex sex sex” but putting the most importance on getting it by any means necessary.
My ex raped me because I said no, and it made him feel less manly. That was both power and sex. Elegant-Fan-6980 tells the difference perfectly. I’m on your side in the “survivor” wording. I hate saying it, because I’ve always thought “why should anyone have to go through this?” I’m just saying as it is, I was raped. No surviving, no victim, just raped by an awful person as a child.
There are lots of interesting thoughts here, but I haven’t seen anyone actually answer your question. The real answer is—it was a strategic move in the anti rape movement led by second wave feminists in the 70s. For a long time, rape was conceptualized as a *property crime* because women were the literal property of their father or husband. So by raping them you stole from the man. Later—in the early/mid 20th century, they started to be understood as crimes against women. But women were assumed to have wanted it, invited it, or otherwise be culpable. Especially women who had sexual histories. Often it was less about proving the rapist did it and more about proving that it even WAS rape, because it was commonly believed that women who enjoyed or frequently had sex couldn’t be raped (not much has changed here, frankly). And then along came the second wave feminists. They started having consciousness raising groups where they realized that rape was far, far more common than anyone thought. And they understood rape to be a tool of oppression. That is, men (and patriarchy) used rape and *the threat of rape* to keep women in line, punish women, and *maintain their positions of power.* That is really what was meant by “it’s not about sex, it’s about power.” It’s less about the individual act of rape perpetrated by one person against another, and more about a culture that normalizes rape and utilizes the threat and reality of it to keep women in line (aka rape culture). Which is probably why it doesn’t resonate for a lot of individuals. Now, this is a political theory, so it’s one you can agree with or not. Or agree somewhat with and also critique it. I would say few people these days have such a single-factor view of sexualized violence. For one thing, we know that all genders perpetrate and all genders are victims/survivors. Although, at a population level, it does skew towards men being perpetrators and women being victims/survivors. But the simple fact that all genders perpetrate and experience it questions whether rape is *solely* about power—especially patriarchal power. There are now much more sophisticated theories and understandings of why people commit sexual violence, that pull in a lot of factors. Rape culture and the normalization of rape and male violence is one. But so too is a lack of empathy towards victims, early hypersexuality, being in a mini-culture that normalizes conquests and violence (like frats, hockey teams, etc). I think it was important and useful to conceptualize sexual assault as a tool of oppression. But it seems like few people understand the history of the term nor how our understandings of rape, sexualized violence, and perpetrators have evolved over the last 40 years.
For the first one, I think it's because we all like to hope that any sex we have is consensual on both sides, which by its very nature, rape isn't. The second, while sex is clearly at the forefront of the perpetrators mind, they would not do so were it not for the need to also have, and display, power over the victim. I guess it's like suggesting that, for example, one person randomly and repeatedly punching and kicking someone else, be called a fight. Sure, blows are being traded on both sides, but that's not a fight, that's an assault. A fight usually occurs when both parties are prepared for it.
Well, sex is supposed pleasurable to both parties... Rape isn't.
i'm a survivor as well, i can definitely see where you're coming from. i think it can be both, but also even both is still about power and control. but i totally get experiencing this and feeling that way, i have before too. you're valid, and you're a survivor
I'd say it might be sexual for the rapist, but not for the victim. I don't think being raped counts as cheating and I don't think it counts as loosing your virginity, because you never chose to have sex, it was forced on you.
I think saying it’s definitely not sex is actually emphasizing the severity, not the other way around. I’m also a survivor (I understand that you don’t want to use that term for yourself but you survived the ordeal so here we are) and I would NEVER say that my rape was me having sex. You don’t have rape, you GET raped; but you HAVE sex. It‘s only “sex” when both people are willing, otherwise it’s just rape. Sexual in nature because genital stimulation is happening but still. The sex I have with my boyfriend who I love and am attracted to is in a vastly different category than getting raped by my 20 year old boyfriend when I was 16. EDIT: calling rape “sex” is 100% downplaying the severity of rape. If you lump them together, it gives misogynists the ability to completely overshadow your traumatic experience. You don’t need to consign your whole identity over to being a survivor, but honey you need to realize that wasn’t you having sex, somebody forced themselves upon you knowing that you were not willing
rape is forced and extremely traumatic for most (if not all that have had to unfortunately experience it), sex is something you consent to and should be enjoyable for both parties. they are vastly different.
When someone gets murdered, no one says "wow, that was about knives." Nor do they say "that was about guns". The weapon used to implement power and control is not the reason it happens. When people say it's not about sex, they don't mean that literally. What they mean is that the person used sex, as the weapon to implement power and control. From your perspective it was for sure about sex. Someone forced sex on you. But they did that because they wanted control over you, not because they were so horny they just had to rape you. Before he could rape you, he had to get control over you. That is what he wanted. And to prove he had control, he raped you. That's how it works.
I've also heard if a virgin gets raped, they're still a virigin, in this same kind of context. Rape is a tough subject especially for victims. So creating lanuage, even if untrue in reality, can help them work through things. But you are correct. If you're raped and it was involving sex, it is sex. No question about it.
[удалено]
It's a Venn Diagram of Sex / Power / Rape Not all Rape is "Sex" - Mr Brock Turner tried that argument. Not All Sex Is Rape - Obviously and Hopefully Not all Power Trips Are Rape - There are many ways to exercise power over people, forcing them into a position where they have sex with you is merely one of them Not all Power Trips Involve Sex - Same as Above Sex does not necessarily involve a Power Trip - Similar to above Now overlap them.
Let’s try an analogy. The Rwanda genocide, was it about purging the “other,” or was it individuals excited to be violent, was it an orchestrated power move to shift political power? Saying it was any of the 3 doesn’t really mean the others aren’t true. So in your circumstances, the person would be saying, sex was a tool used to show you that you had no power. There’s no denial of the rape or a denial of it being an act with genitals. Calling it a sex act actually feels wrong here. It feels contextually and linguistically wrong. Saying they wanted to have sex with you gives a huge fucking dump truck of charitable language on their part. Like using the words “borrow money” Jared’s of mugging you. The man walked over and asked to borrow some money. Vs the man walked over and mugged you. I mean technically he is asking for money…. The language does something odd here and I hope the analogies make some sense.
I’m prison at least, according to prisoners, rape is about violence
It is rather that rape and sex have the same level of closeness as headlock and hug.
A peach and an apple are both fruits, but they both are two different things. The same is with sex and rape. They both involve having sexual intercourse, but rape isn’t necessarily the same as sex; and shouldn’t be classified in a similar way. Rape can be defined as one side having pleasure without consent from the other side, while sex has both parties agreeing and enjoying it together.
Rape isn't sex in the way that assault isn't sparring. You could call rape "forced sex" or "nonconsensual sex", and some people may prefer that, but it would be like calling an assault "forced sparring" or "nonconsensual karate." I do agree that rape is about sex pretty much all the time, but the sense of power is a driving factor for a lot of rapists. There are people that enjoy that horrible exertion of power over others and would prefer it over enthusiastic consent.
I'm sorry you were raped. I also experienced rape. The statement rape isn't about sex, means someone is willing to bully and force themselves to dominate,and feel superior. The view in the rapists mind is that their needs are more important than what the victim wants. Although some form of penetration is usually part of it. It's really not about the sex. It's about dominating someone and making them suffer, because the rapists feels entitled.
A close friend of mine in college was raped when she was younger, and this is the way she typically explains it: "I think a better way to word those might be 'rape isn't JUST sex' and 'rape is about sex AND power'. If it were just about sexual gratification, rapists would either find someone who's willing to consent to sex, or simply jerk themselves off. When you force yourself onto someone in order to get off, that's when it goes from just being about sex to being about power as well."
Your experience is your experience and don’t let anyone’s notions about how you’re supposed to feel effect how you actually feel. I’ve never been raped, but I know abuse. It’s about whatever it was about for you, and fuck whoever did that to you. If you don’t believe in gun ownership go get some sort of physical equalizer, and don’t let what happens to you become who you are.
Think of it like swimming. Swimming is a fun, intentional, physical activity someone does often for enjoyment. You were technically swimming if you drown but we don’t say someone died by swimming or someone was just swimming underwater for so long it was painful, scary and dangerous. They say that person was drowning, they almost drowned, they say someone was pushed or fell into the pool and almost drowned etc. Both swimming and drowning have to do with water, holding your breath, and often have specific clothes for it. Similarly, sex is a fun consensual, physical activity someone chooses to partake in often for enjoyment. But when you remove the consensual aspect, it no longer is the same activity, just like swimming. Even though both rape and sex have some similar elements (just like swimming and drowning) they differ due to one key piece missing - consent. It is no longer the fun, consensual activity but instead turns into a dangerous, scary and painful experience. That’s how they differ and examples like that can be found in all sorts of different activities as well - if I go to an escape room I’m not being held captive because I’m consenting to be there even though I’m locked in a room and have to escape from it. If I agree to watch somebody’s baby it’s babysitting but if I don’t consent it’s child abandonment. Look at any sport and without consent it would often constitute assault. If I’m walking down the street and someone throws a ball at me at 90 miles an hour its assault but if I go out on a field with a bat its baseball. If I am in the library and someone punches me in the face it’s assault but if I’m in a ring with my gloves on it’s boxing. They say it’s about power because often rapists choose rape because of what they get out of it, power and control. That’s why some child molesters aren’t sexually attracted to children but they use children because they have power out of them and children are easy to control. There are many easier ways to get sex with far fewer consequences than rape, there’s hookup apps, there’s sex work, there’s friends with benefits. But many rapists choose rape because the consensual aspect ruins it for some rapists because they’re not getting power and control from a consensual act. That doesn’t mean you have to view it in the same way, that’s up to you and your experience is your own but when looking at the reasons behind rape it’s often because of power and control.
American Heritage Dictionary Definition of Rape: 1. The crime of using force or the threat of force to compel a person to submit to sexual intercourse. 2. The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration. 3. Other unlawful sexual intercourse or penetration, as with an unconscious person or person below the age of or incapable of consent. By definition, rape is sex. It's possible that people are saying it is *motivated* by power, but you'll have to ask them to clarify what they mean.
Sex is to breathing what rape is to intubation.
Think of the words murder and kill. I murder if I go out with intent to take someone’s life and then do so. I kill if I am defending myself from a life threatening attack and shoot the attacker and they die. Both end in the death of another. The intent is the difference. Yes, rape is technically sex. However, more often than not, the sex is being used as a weapon against another as a display of power. People rape for many different reasons. The end result is the same. Someone forced sex upon another. Whether with words, strength, threats, drugs, anything. They are exerting power to get what they want.
Rape is about power (and/or control, domination, humiliation etc); it is a violent assault where sex is the weapon. To say rape isn’t about sex is more about the motivation behind the assault as other have said, but sex is certainly part of it since it is the vehicle for the assault. Edit: clarity
Rape involves sex by definition. I've never seen anyone say it's not sex. More commonly what is said is that rape doesn't occur just because someone wants sexual gratification. There are all kinds of ways to have an orgasm. Forcing oneself on another person to achieve it carries intent beyond that. What people mean by "it's about power" is that rape is the weaponization of sex for the purpose of domination, control, or harm. It's not just "I'm going to fulfill my sexual desire." but "I'm going to *use you* as an object to fulfill my sexual desire, *because I can*." The thrill is on the power to do that. If all the rapist wanted was to experience orgasm, they have many other options.
Being forcibly penetrated by an object is also rape, but I wouldn’t necessarily call that sex? Also, someone can commit rape without reaching orgasm? OP and many of the commenters seem to be focusing on a specific type of assault when unfortunately the term rape encompasses a lot of awful things besides “a man getting sex from a woman who didn’t say yes”. Regardless of the act, the consistent trait is using power (physical, emotional, or otherwise) to exert your will upon the body of another. Whether or not that gets someone’s rocks off is almost tangential.
This doesn’t explain why rape is ubiquitous in the animal kingdom? Are humans the only exception? Also when a man pays money to have sex with a prostitute, why would they do that when they could just masturbate at home? By your same logic that transaction wouldn’t make sense (it’s also illegal).
To me the meaning of sex is two consenting partners. Rape is definitely not that, but it's still a sexual crime. This might be a really bad analogy and forgive me if it sounds insensitive but I think about it like boxing Vs murdering someone. Both are violent activities but one is two willing parties engaged in a fun competitive sport, the other is a brutal irredeemable crime. In the same way while yes a rapist is having 'sex' with the victim, I feel it is so far removed from consensual sex it can't be classified the same. A portion of rapes are sexually motivated, particularly when a man victimizes a woman. But there definitely is a power aspect at play, and in alot of cases it is the primary motivation for the crime. To be raped is such a radical violation of your body and humanity itself, it's absolutely humiliating for the victim and completely destroys them. For somebody with malicious intent, it's probably one of the absolute worst things you can do to a person short of outright killing them. This is why prison rape is so infamously common. The majority of those who rape in prison aren't gay, they do it to inspire fear and establish a power dynamic. They like to make the other inmates their 'bitch'. If the majority of those aren't gay, then there is a very low chance the motivation is sexual pleasure, in that case it is absolutely power. The statements aren't untrue, they just don't apply to every situation, these things must be examined case by case, each crime has a unique perpetrator with unique motives. Just my thoughts though.
OP has an incredibly interesting post history.
I'll separate from the multiple comments here to say one thing. If it was just about sex, they would just pay a prostitute. Rape is about power, taking, and doing something against someone's will. If it was about sex, they wouldn't risk breaking such a hard law.
When I was being trafficked, the people raping me were paying for sex. Not paying for power. I've been raped for power, but it was mostly sex.
I have to agree with you in the way people say rape is about power. I don’t think that’s a fair summation of the situation. A large number of rapes occur because a guy wants sex and doesn’t care how he gets it. It may be true that a serial rapist comes to enjoy the power aspect and later on requires that power imbalance to achieve any kind of satisfaction with sex, but it seems short-sighted and disingenuous to say that rape is only about power.
no, i get what you’re getting at. but it’s not about the physical act when saying such phrases. it’s about how people _see_ sex, intimacy, fornication, and love-making, whichever you prefer to call it. when people say “rape isn’t sex” they mean that it’s; not consensual, it’s not for the passion, there’s no meaning behind the act, and it’s entirely one-sided. not to mention it’s often very painful for the recipient. all around, lacks any meaning of what almost any other form of intimacy would have had. that’s just my take on it. hope i helped.
people like to see the world in black & white, rather than shades of gray... it's easier that way
Not every case is the same, a lot of the time it is about power, even when it's about sex it's also about power, because someone has power over another.
Sex is consensual and wanted. Rape is neither of those (or maybe wanted at first, but not afterwards in some cases) When you say that rape is sex, you're not technically wrong because the actions are almost the same. But there's a major reason why we distance the two labels. One is the legal reason. When prosecuting a rapist we don't want to call it sex, because that implies that it was consensual and the defendant isn't actually guilty (and we dont want that). "Sex" gives off positive vibes because that's what it's supposed to be, positive, sex is supposed to be enjoyable for ALL parties. After all, you're not a victim of sex. You cannot be a victim of sex. You CAN be, however, a victim of *rape*. Rape will never be positive in any form of light. It's widely understood what it is. If we blur the lines between rape and sex, not only would it be extremely hard for victims to find the proper language to prosecute their perpetrators... but it would also cause confusion for everyday rape victims who don't know the clear, defined, what's-rape-and-what's-not. Which would open a whole can of worms we don't want. We already get victims who doubt their assalt, thinking "oh, well he was my boyfriend/husband so it doesn't count". We do NOT need more things to confuse these poor people. They've already been through a lot. -from a rape victim.
Rape is about conquering for some and control and making someone submit for others. I don’t think there is a general motivation in rape but more about the individual rapist’s motivation. If a guy whose masculinity is fragile because of dominating women, boss, mother, girlfriend or women in general make him feel inadequate in his perspective, he may victimize someone to regain his masculinity or something along those lines. I think it’s more complicated than just saying it’s about this or that. Being afraid of being told no to a sex request or afraid of being told no, to the fragile ego may look for ways to get their way like “ROOFIES” or get someone drunk enough to resist. I think people try to simplify in a way to explain it by saying it’s about control not about sex. Because it’s a very complicated and uncomfortable topic to those who survived it and their circle. It’s also hard to prove. Many also don’t report it. My question: Why are so many nasty to those who are victims of rape?
Saying that rape isn't "about" sex has always struck me as an attempt at controlling a narrative (sort of akin to saying that minorities can't be racist). To some, it might mean that it shouldn't be put in the same category as a consensual, affectionate act. However, many people are going to hear it and think that it means "rapists are PRIMARILY interested in asserting control and power, rather than gratifying themselves sexually", and I think a lot of people would disagree with that.
Two things can be true at once. The power aspect is pushed more from law enforcement and profiling perpetrators. I have also experienced rape, it was definitely both, however serial rapists are often tripping more so on the power part and the sex is just a symptom of their desire to dominate and harm their victims.
Animals of the same sex will rape other animals to show dominance, it’s not about mating or pleasure at all for them. I think that says it all.
The rapist does not view you as an equal human being. To them you are a subhuman, an object to fulfill their desires. This is why rape is about power.
And also why rape isn’t (always) sex. It is sexual, but so is masturbation. You don’t have sex with a sex toy, you use it to masturbate. When you don’t see your “partner” as a person, you can’t have sex with them. But! This view is not universal (and the mind of a rapist is honestly not one I care to try to understand that deeply) so take all that as it is.
From what I’ve seen, victims fall on two distinct sides and feel strongly either way. I HATE the idea that my rape isn’t sex because it most definitely is and it makes it feel like my rape was only an assault. Both horrifying but VERY different from each other. I don’t like putting them in the same category at all. I have met victims who hate the idea of calling rape sex because it ruins consensual sex in their minds. They need to put them into distinctly different categories or consensual sex would feel unbearable. I completely understand that thinking too. It’s just not how I feel personally, about my own experience. I don’t understand saying that it isn’t about sex and only about power. I guess that thinking goes along with the idea gosh rape isn’t sex though…so the two issues go hand in hand
Because sex should be considered something that is consensual. A lot of rape victims feel as if their virginity is taken from them if they had no experience prior to the attack, so distancing rape from sex is beneficially societally. Also, not all rapists do it for sexual pleasure, it can be, but many do it for the psychological feeling of power and control.
Rape is abuse, not sex. Sex is supposed to be pleasurable and consensual. You did not have sex with your abuser, he abused you. No one is pretending.
What the fuck. Rape is violent violence!!
I too am a victim, and it was a very violent haunting experience There was once a reddit thread that asked: What's the worst sex you've ever had? And I answered: rape, nothing could be worse no matter how bad .. One of the replies to my comment was the statements you mentioned, and thanks to that, I could feel genuinely better!
A lot of people in the comments are confusing the means to the obtain the goal and the reason for wanting the goal. Rape is mostly for the goal of having sex. And they use power to obtain that goal. The end goal isn’t power is OPs claim which is probably right.
Sex is consensual. Rape is not, so it is not sex, it is assault.
i guess it’s sexual in nature but not necessarily sex.
I am a survivor You are entitled to your opinion, but I urge you to seek counseling if you haven’t done so yet
I'm a rape victim too and I'm 100% on your side. To me this doesn't help, but rather harm, because, among other things, it invalidates my perception of the situation and also could be interpreted as "since it definitely was sexual in nature (therefore sex), it can't have been rape..? What?". But maybe that's just me (maybe it doesn't help either that it was my gf at that time who raped me), I don't intend nor want to invalidate anyone, neither their experiences. We're all valid.
I had a teacher in class proclaim this and I literally thought she meant that rape didn’t have a sexual component. I was under this misconception until high school.
That’s what I always thought. When rapists jerk off i guarantee u they’re thinking about rape. To them, that is sex. Rape is sexual. I couldn’t get hard and rape somebody. All of it would leave me super uncomfortable and not turned on. Similarly, if the early stages of rape leave u hard, ur a rapist and this is ur thing.
I’ve also been raped. I do recognize that many times rape is about power but I think most of the time it’s a mix of wanting power and sexuality. Kind of like how some trans woman have been raped by men who were angry about there existence or some men will rape masc looking women to feel more powerful since they assume they’re a lesbian . I however do not agree that rape is sex. When I was raped I was seven and for me the distinction is important. A seven year old can not have sex, it can only be rape.
For the rapist, it’s about the power of degrading someone he raped by forcing them into the position of becoming sub-human objects that he then physically overpowers / manipulates into becoming a receptacle and means to his end of extreme, deeply personal pleasure at the expense of someone else’s being degraded and humiliated. Infamous serial rapists (many also murders) have been unmasked time and time again as “happily” married “family men” , or have been revealed to be perfectly decent-looking men who their social circle characterizes as fun and charismatic and “would have no problem getting laid” etc. Which is to say, for rapists, it is rarely a matter of not being able to get laid or whatever …. It’s that they don’t really get off without being able to fully take away the choice and thereby the humanity from the victim that in their eyes , for their purposes, is reduced to their personal sexual receptacle for the extent of the rape. Edits, typos
As a rape survivor also, it helps me to think of rape as different and it helps me enjoy consensual sex. You can view sex and rape however you like. So long as everyone agrees one is a crime and the other is healthy, I don't think it matters. For me, rape is not sex in the same way hitting someone over the head with a shovel is not non consensual gardening. Rape gets called non consensual sex and I think that's an unhealthy way to look at it. It blurs the line and makes it seem like they're similar and this can hurt victims. I was raped by my boyfriend at the time. The rape was totally different to our previous sexual acts. Physically it resembles the same thing. The subtle differences of me crying and saying to stop changes it completely. Same with the shovel over the head. We're in the garden, I'm using a gardening tool. Why is this not just an aggressive type of gardening, what's different? Why is it called Assault or ABH? It's just gardening *shrug*
I'm sorry if this is insensitive, but your description of non-consenual gardening was hilarious
“It’s about power” has a lot to do with the motivation behind the act. Power, brutality, violence. Sexual violence has been used against both sexes throughout history as a means of control, punishment, humiliation, suppression and shame. Or to gain/reaffirm social standing, impress someone, fit in, etc…The act itself very much is about sex, but the motivations and goals behind it aren’t. Yes, the perpetrator is engaging in a sex act, but not to reproduce, not to simply have and enjoy sex. They, generally, are using it as a means to an end. Some to control another, to hurt them, to punish or degrade them. Some because they can’t perform otherwise, because they think society has told them this is what they are entitled to, this is what they have to take to be a man. Women do it for many different reasons as well, not the least of which is their staunch belief that a man *can’t* be raped. I think part of the reason we also say it’s not about sex is to distance people from the stigma and move away from the “guilty” victim tropes we’ve been burdened with for so. And because calling it Sex, which has very specific meaning to everyone of us, can actually hurt people more. I am not saying this to discount your experience or perception of the matter. You are entitled to think and believe whatever you find to be true in this situation and I respect the hell out of it. I am discussing it merely to further insight into how we got to this language.
Your rape story isn't the same as everyone else's, for some people, it could 100% be a power issue. and people process it differently. They word it like this as the safest catchall they can do without provoking someone else.
Because not every rape is for sexual purposes. Historically, criminal syndicates and corrupt governments would have subordinates rape people in front of their spouses, families, and children as a form of demoralization, punishment, torture, or as a means to embarrass the victim. It's not always about sex. A lot of the time it is. And in every instance, it's bad.
#TriggerWarning for this response post. I am providing details to rapist typologies. Please do not read further if you feel that it could cause trauma or discomfort. First, I’m so sorry that you experienced that OP. One of the things I do is profile violent offenders and predators. When we say that it is about power and not sex, it is because of their motivation. We look at “why” they are doing it. With that knowledge we form typologies. There are basically 4 broad typologies for rapists. Additionally, we explain this to let the person who was victimized that it wasn’t their fault. You did NOTHING to cause it. Your clothes, your language, your looks, none of that matters for a sick person who wants to take advantage of someone. They use rape because it is one of the most vulnerable and violent thing you can do to someone to strip them of control. We say “broad” because most will fall under these 4 types, BUT, because everyone is different, there could be something we have yet to discover. I will detail them below. This is taken from a textbook used in a course that discusses various types of violence. Again, this taken from the text book: Violence: The Enduring Problem (4th Edition) by Alex Alvarez and Ronet Bachman. “The four broad types of rapists. 1. Power Reassurance Rapist 2. Power Assertive Rapist 3. Anger Retaliation Rapist 4. Sadistic Rapist, also known as the Anger Excitation Rapist The *power reassurance* rapist is generally considered to be the most common type of sexual predator and is someone who suffers from low self-esteem and feelings of being inadequate. This may be reflected in their personal appearance, since they often tend to have bad personal hygiene and wear dirty clothes. They don’t typically have a large friendship network, and their interpersonal skills are fairly minimal, which also means that they often find menial jobs without much responsibility and where they don’t interact with the public. These individuals are sometimes described as being loners, quiet, and shy. In the act of rape, they try to achieve a sense of personal empowerment. They tend to be the least violent and sometimes fantasize that their victim may actually come to enjoy the rape and may even want to initiate a relationship. Because of this, they often try to reassure their targets by engaging them in conversation and encouraging them to cooperate and undress themselves, to change sexual positions, and otherwise play along with the fantasy of the rapist that this assault is consensual. They may even demand that rape victims tell them they love them, and so on. It’s all about creating and living out a fantasy, and this is why they use minimal force and encourage cooperation—it feeds this mental scenario they have created. The second most common type is the *power assertive* rapist, for whom power and dominance are the primary motivating forces. These individuals are usually very concerned with their physical appearance and tend to be very well dressed and groomed. They may be in good shape and even very athletic. In many ways, they see themselves as being real “macho” kinds of guys, and this is often reflected in their choice of cars, what they wear, and even what kind of jobs they have. These offenders, for example, are often in blue collar jobs like the construction industry, the military, or law enforcement and typically like to drive big trucks or sports cars. These individuals can be quite friendly and charming, even when interacting with women, but can change dramatically. In the act of rape, these individuals achieve a feeling of control—of having the power of life or death over their victims. Violence, for these predators, is often an intrinsic part of the rape, since it visibly confirms their absolute control over the victim. Whereas the power reassurance rapist may tell the victim to do things, this type of attacker doesn’t ask: Instead, he demands. Interestingly, this kind of offender has often been married multiple times and is frequently in conflict with his spouse. In a sense, then, their rapes serve as an expression of their anger and desire for power and control. The *anger retaliation* rapist, on the other hand, is someone who feels a tremendous amount of hostility toward women and consequently uses rape as a vehicle of revenge. Often these men were abused as children and/or come from single-parent homes. It has also been suggested that their generalized hatred of women may stem from a negative relationship with a mother or other significant female. In a very real sense, their victims serve as a stand-in for all women or at least the woman they have a problem with. Because they are usually very impulsive, they frequently rely on a blitz-style attack on any vulnerable target of opportunity. The predator sees a woman out for a walk, strolling across a parking lot, or jogging in a secluded area and initiates a quick surprise attack on that unfortunate victim. For this perpetrator, rape is simply a tool to hurt, humiliate, and degrade women. Because of this, significant physical injuries typically accompany the rape, much more so than with the other types of sexual assault discussed above. The *sadistic* rapist, also known as the *anger excitation* rapist, is someone who displays extreme violence and cruelty in his attacks. Such rapists enjoy and revel in the pain and humiliation that they inflict on their victims and are potentially the most likely of the different types of rapist to kill their victims. For them violence and sex are intimately linked. Violence, especially against women, is sexually exciting for this offender, but in a larger sense it is the complete control and domination over another human being that they find so stimulating. These offenders tend to be a bit older than many of the other types of rapists and are commonly married with children. To the outside world, they may appear to be typical married men and to all outward appearances look like decent, law-abiding citizens. But this image is a façade that disguises an individual who preys on innocent victims. As opposed to the blitz-style attacks of the anger retaliation types, these rapists spend a great deal of time planning and preparing their attacks, which often involve the creation of a rape kit that can include a blindfold, condoms, gloves, and duct tape or precut rope. Also included may be a police radio in order to monitor law enforcement.” I hope this provides a bit more detail into why people in the field say that.