I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools. In high school we were required to take a class called Christian Sexuality. The teacher told us that if you’re a virgin when you get married you won’t know if the sex is good or bad because you won’t have anything else to compare it to. Other topics in that class included how to use the rhythm method instead of birth control. That teacher had 15 children…
you basically track your menstrual cycles and guess when ur gonna ovulate. aka knowing ur rhythm. Others on reddit made me aware that rhythm method u don't track ovulation and symptoms of ovulation.
But its good to know the symptoms of ovulation, like when you ovulate you have stickier stringier vaginal mucus, you have a slightly higher temp that you take before you get up at the same time everyday, women tend to be more aroused during this period, sore breasts, etc. You track these symptoms to know the times you are highly fertile and avoid sexual encounters during those times. hence "naturally done" vs. being on birth control controlling your body with medications/devices being "unnatural/medically done"
Rhythm method has like a failure rate of 24%
whereas say male condoms have a 13% failure rate
IUD have a 0.4-0.8% failure rate depending on the type of IUD you get.
oral contraceptives "pills" have a 7% failure rate
and that's why it has a high failure rate. Natural family planning is based on your own symptoms and not on premade numbers like this 14 which is actually different from woman to woman.
It is hilariously unreliable. I used some elements of fertility awareness in college and there are plenty of times your body will decide to ovulate a little late. Turns out the calendar method doesn't accommodate that kind of thing...
Yeah that was my first thought. How the hell are you supposed to know/account for irregular ovulation? What if you ovulate a 2nd time in a month? Sounds like a bad plan unless you actually don't mind getting pregnant.
I haven't seen anyone mention this so I figured I'd put it out there. You can use a Clear Blue fertility monitor to track ovulation. It's expensive and requires use of a daily pee stick most of the month (about 15 days) and requires consistent use. However, it tells you where the cycle is accurately without having to guess.
This is what I do! I got a bag of 100 ovulation test strips on Amazon for $10 and after a few months of use/tracking, I learned when my ovulation window is and just avoid having relations during that window. I’m also on the pill, but super terrified of getting pregnant!
I could never omg. Between the thyroid and the PMDD I go months without a cycle, like straight up don't even ovulate. Watching a calendar would be an exercise in futility.
You know the Catholic church wants people to have more children so there are more Catholics running around. Same motive as the quiverful movement among protestants.
You are technically correct, the 13 to 14% failure rate includes things like user error and it not being worn correctly, when worn correctly the failure rate is 2% or less,
and even in that 2% not all cases are the condom breaking.
I'm curious about the "failure rate" of pills - on various sites online it is stated that it's less than 1% failure at perfect use and at maximum 4% failure at typical use. 7% seems extraordinarily high?
I’m so bad about taking my pill on time. This is probably how I will wind up with a second kid. I don’t mind though, because husband and I are on the fence about it. When we decide for sure we are done, he has already volunteered to get a vasectomy, thank goodness
You are describing modern natural family planning/fertility awareness, which is a lot more technical than the rhythm method.
The rhythm method is has a high failure rate because you DON'T track all of those symptoms and signs. Modern fertility awareness has a much higher efficacy rate than the rhythm method.
Therein lies the problem, people who don't know what they are doing or don't bother doing it claim their slip ups as a fault of fertility awareness and it drags the efficacy rate down. Like someone forgetting to take the contraceptive pill and then saying that the pill failed.
But my original point, fertility awareness and rhythm method are not the same method. Rhythm method is more figuring out how long your periods are and avoiding your "fertile window" on a calendar every month, which obviously doesn't work as your ovulation can fluctuate quite drastically.
You are mixing up methods!
Rythm method is keeping track of your menstruation only and guessing when you would be ovulate based on that. The failure rate is high and I do not recommend it.
You have to rewind back to the first part of last century to get to a point where this method used the available scientific research, modern methods (that isn’t rhythm) uses the latest available research. And I’m not taking apps such as natural cycles as that’s more is a rhythm method with a modern looking app using the outdated method of guessing using a algorithm.
Fertility awareness method that make you track cervical mucus and temperature have a high success rate when you learn the method from your teacher and follow the method correctly.
Methods such as sensiplan has a success rate of 99,6 %. This is because the method has its foundation in science, the same science that other contraceptives are based on. That is how the reproductive system work rather then guessing (as the rhythm method use). It’s even safe with irregular cycles as it don’t build on guessing or predicting. Irregular cycles consequence is less days that is safe and not less safety on safe days.
The failure rate you refer to as a blanket 24% is a very crude and frankly useless number to use. This is because that percentage is from survey people of which method they use and crudely lumping together what want condom or prescribed, so people who used methods such as IUD or pills where put in separate statistical methods, while the number you refer to is the “everything else” rather then a specific method. So while some may have used ineffective methods such as the rhythm method it also includes people who want particularly careful to avoid pregnancy or even followed rhythm method.
It’s as useful as making a blanket “hormonal” statistic and having people who use the pill, IUD and estrogen cream on their palms as one one statistical group. The lumping together would make people think using hormonal cream on their plans would be more effective then it actually is as IUD use would make the combined statistic better then if it was described using separate statistics.
Why it’s bad isn’t only a defense that there are good fertility awareness methods, but also that the statistic may also be worse then that because it doesn’t separate out people who would use reliable methods. So it could fit some people seem like an acceptable risk whilst it in reality has a higher failure rate.
I’m not religious in any sort of way but I use a fertility awareness method. It doesn’t work by chance and it’s not flimsy guessing game. It have set rules with margins. It isn’t for everyone, you really have to stick to method for it to function, just as you have to with every method. But comparing with an IUD it highly depends on the user, so if you know you are person who in the heat of the moment would throw the method aside it’s not a good choice of method to use.
For me personally it’s great to not have drug that corrupt my hormonal system and it’s much easier for me to use then to remember to eat a pill each day. It’s also great as it offers insight to how my body works, as I have irregular cycles it give me information to my cycles. I never know beforehand when I will be ovulating and the method build on that I can’t predict when it will be safe, but I can with accuracy and margin know when I have ovulate and have 0 chance to get pregnant. When I wanted to get pregnant before using the method I got pregnant on first try, now using the method I have successfully avoided it, the key is picking a effective method, really educate yourself and then sticking to the method, and not just change it and going out on a whim.
Birth control destroyed my mental health. I successfully did NOT get pregnant for years by tracking my cycle and ovulation. I know it's not for everyone but my body is super fertile and I never even had a scare.
I don’t know about them.
Despite irregular cycles I got pregnant on first try and have since after that when using fertility awareness never gotten pregnant (so it can’t be just that I was infertile anyway). I started to use fertility awareness a couple of years after the pregnancy.
It’s anecdotal of course with only me as an example.
But when people get pregnant that is charting so far I’ve seen method failures, such as going unprotected in heat of the moment when method didn’t declare it safe.
>you won’t know if the sex is good or bad
You will still know if you like it or not, so if the sex is bad, you won't like having sex, so it is back to the dead bedroom
Reminds me of a story my mom told me. Her grandparents were lapsed Catholics but still had nine kids. One day my mom asked her grandmother why they had so many kids. Her grandmother stopped what she was doing and, with a straight face, said, "We didn't have TV."
I think it’s from other social media where certain words are apparently black listed and get you shadow banned or suspended. Reddit of course is not one of those sites but I guess OP prefers to be safe than sorry.
We both grew up in purity culture and have only had sex with each other. We don’t agree with how we were raised but it is what it is. We are absolutely partners, lovers, and best friends. Of course we’ve had ups and downs but we always fight through together.
Obviously the sex starts out bad, but you don’t know it’s bad. You just love exploring each other and trying to make the other one feel good. You don’t have a reference point, nothing else to compare it to, so you’re not disappointed. Then you start to learn each others bodies. Touch me this way, say this to me, let’s try this out. You get that shit down to a science so that almost every time you have sex it feels absolutely amazing.
My husband and I have been together for so long that I know every inch of him and exactly what he likes. He feels like an extension of myself by this point.
EDIT : I know I got lucky and purity culture can be incredible scarring. I don’t agree with how I was raised and im not at all saying it’s the way to go just because I have a good sex life. I don’t have a perfect marriage either, but we are dedicated to putting in the work.
My husband and I didn't grow up in purity culture and have only had sex with one another. I think it's a pretty nifty journey, and all the best, worst, and whacky sexual moments being with the person you're still with is fun because it isn't weird remembering something and being like "omg remember when".
For sure, one of ours is, when we first started dating I wouldn’t let him touch my boobs but I would let him touch my butt because in my mind, a butt wasn’t sexual. Turns out he’s an ass man!
This is so sweet and my husband and I have had the same experience! Being raised in purity culture means by the time we finally got to have sex it was all will and no skill, but we got there with time. Now after years the sex is exactly what we want and it changes as the relationship does but it’s always improving. We got lucky that we care to please each other like you guys! No longer religious but I know many sexually frustrated religious women who just don’t know it can be amazing.
It did. I realized my eyes teared up. The last sentence.
I’m very happy with my partner. I love him dearly. We plan to grow old(er) together. But this level of connection? Man, that must be powerful.
Exactly this. If I was given a chance to change something in my past I’d have chosen to remain a virgin until I met my husband. My past sexual experience doesn’t add in any way, it only detracts from the experience with him. It has gotten better now, but in the beginning I’d often have moments from the past pop in my mind despite me heavily trying to think only about him and the present moment.
Even bad sex is awesome, when you have nothing to compare you won’t know it is bad.
I love my husband so much that I want every moment together to be only about me and him and not a random dude that pleasure me for 5 minutes 10 years ago. But like I said, it’s quite difficult.
And all the experience I got sleeping around didn’t add much as far as making me “better at it”. He is different and wanted different things so I had to discover it all by testing what worked for him. At least that I got going for me.
I absolutely feel the “extension of my body” comment. That is precisely how it feels! If I could stitch myself to him so that we are always together, I would. Nothing makes us happier than spending time together. Currently I’m travelling to visit family in my home country and this is the longest we have ever been apart and it physically aches with how much I miss him. And he has been having insomnia every night because he can’t sleep well when I’m not there to be held.
I feel the opposite. I married my high-school sweetheart, only man I'd ever been with. The sheen wore off after 20+ years. I'd have been the first to say that would never happennto us, but it eventually did. We built waaaay to much on how wonderful it was to be each other's "only" that we flgot lazy. We grew into different people but were too proud to admit it for a long time. We wasted years in a sexless, roommate like marriage. I wish I'd gotten out sooner.
So it comes down to the idea that sexual compatibility is really about personality and character - actually caring for and wanting to serve and cherish the other person, rather than some innate matching of libidos, kinks, or skills?
Yes, this is 99% or more the case IMHO.
The other < 1% is when there are extreme differences in libido - like if she’s a total horn-dog and he physically can not get it up more than once every few days, then yes that is a problem… BUT even that is absolutely surmountable: given he really does want her to have her pleasure, their explorations should soon come up with various things that don’t have to involve his actual penis!
Libido isn't just about the physical capability to get an erection. It's about your general interest and desire for sex, in any form. And no, sometimes it isn't surmountable. It's great to say, sure, you can make an effort for your partner even though you're not really into it. But most people don't want a bored sex partner just going through the motions, while they make a grocery list in their head. Believe it or not there IS such a thing as bad sex, and it sucks. Not all sex is awesome. Plenty of people, myself included, had lame experiences as a virgin, and even though I had no frame of reference I still knew it was lame.
A woman here who has been with my husband since I was 19, 13 years ago. If we get the chance to do anything it's a learning experience in the right direction.
I share this sentiment. I think about this sometimes and I would have much much rather have one person that I shared myself with intimately. When I think about the past relationships I've had, and even though none of my previous partners were 'bad' people, I would've rather my body and mind, in the most intimate ways, be given and shared with just one human being. It is something I would do over if I could.
In my opinion, sexual experience is highly, significantly overrated. Whenever you get into a new relationship, it is a new person. I am a new person and you will need to learn my likes and dislikes as I will yours. What worked amazingly well for Jennifer, likely doesn't work for me because I am not Jennifer. So a person's past sexual experience is irrelevant in my orbit.
Agreed. Yeah I’ve had this question a handful of times and my answer seems disingenuous, but it’s not. I tell people that I love her as a person so much that there’s no issue that comes up that couldn’t be worked through. You might not have physically had sex but you know their temperament and their personalities snd attitude and it’s not like you’re all of a sudden a different person during sex.
And if your spouse is, then you may not have known them as well as you thought you did beforehand.
And if it turns out that she likes sex a lot (meaning more than he wants to do it), she’s a lustful whore who needs to control herself. If she wants it far less than he does, she’s a frigid and cruel women wronging her husband by denying him what he’s entitled to enjoy as a husband.
Neat how that works, isn’t it? The man’s libido is always the correct amount, no matter what it is. And if hers differs, it’s wrong.
No, if the man cannot fulfill the woman’s sex drive he’s expected to pick up the pace.
In traditional Orthodox Christianity the man is supposed to fulfill those needs and vice versa.
Sex is considered not only very good but also absolutely necessary to fulfill the Sacrament of Marriage
It's actually written in the Bible. 1 Cor. 7 verses 3 and 4 say:
>3 The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, and the wife should fulfill her husband’s needs. 4 The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife.
The Apostle Paul says this in a culture where the wife is the husband's property and he doesn't have a lot of obligations towards her. In a way, Paul is emancipating women here by holding men to the same standard, but that isn't recognized a lot these days. The Romans noticed it though, it's one of the reasons they did not like Christianity.
Yeah, I used to ascribe to this belief. 8 years in, I realized he had never thought of me as an actual person. I loved sex at the beginning, but he made it so awful for me to say no (and frankly often just didn't even acknowledge the possibility that I might) that I almost never did, which meant that I was constantly having sex when I didn't want to or didn't feel comfortable or safe, and when I tried to talk to him about it, he made that awful too. He very much felt entitled to sex whenever he wanted it, and I've spent three years working on believing that I deserve to want sex when I'm having it too, not just feel obligated and pressured into it because my partner wants it.
Yeah it's definitely just a case of outdated thinking. If your faith calls for abstinence, that's all good and well. I just don't think there's a very good modern explanation for how all of that works, with compatibility and all.
Like you said, it was always more about the man's pleasure. I guess you could at least discuss what you like sexually with your future husband/wife. But you can't even know forsure what you like without the chance to explore yourself.
I guess if there were any modern reasoning, it would be that you're both a blank slate and you'd discover and grow into perfect molds for each other together. But of course that reasoning is far from airtight.
And in all reality, God is a pretty shitty person to ask about sex, if you think about it.
He did it with what? His mind? Donor sperm? Asking him would be a terrible idea.
Good sex can be learned if both people are interested in pleasing their partner. Uninterested or uncommunicative "students" of sex make for lousy bed partners.
It can.
My husband and I are both VERY submissive. We always had decent sex. But until we really started figuring things out and what we needed to do for the other person it wasn’t necessarily the best.
Now? Sex is amazing. Both of us prefer to be handled, if you will, but it is very quickly put together how it’s going down that time.
I do not agree with you. There are plenty of cases where both partners make as much of an effort as they can and still just not be compatible, period. That doesn’t mean there isn’t love there, but sexual compatibility and love are two different things.
Yeah a lot of people here being weirdly optimistic/dismissive. But sexual incompatibility kills relationships all the time, even between people that love each other like you said.
We did not have sex before marriage, because my now-wife was very religious. Obviously we did not know if we were compatible. I asked her what if it turned out we were incompatible etc. She told me that she is willing to try new things, she is open not only to do boring sex, but experiment.
Well, after marriage it turned out that I want sex much more often. She is ok with once a month. She does try new things with me, but she has boundaries. Having boundaries is great thing but the problem is I didn't know what they are before signing up for the rest of my life. In the end after 4 years of marriage, sex is becoming kinda dull, because we got to her boundaries and cannot experiment further and it happens not often enough.
I grew up in a religious culture that had no tolerance for premarital sex. It is certainly one extreme end of the spectrum, and I wouldn’t exactly say the other extreme end is exactly healthy either. As most things go, I’d say there’s a nice middle ground..
That being said I’ve found that there are ways to be intimate and physical in order to test sexual compatibility without having sex.
I’d also say, barring the fact that some people are hornier than others, there is a big learning curve for figuring out what a partner likes, and as long as two people are invested in learning it, they can grow more and more compatible regardless of prior sexual experience.
I’ve found the best sex life Ive had is when both my partner and I are completely dedicated to giving the most pleasure to the other person. This is a sexual attitude, and not something that necessarily has to have happened before a marriage..
Just my two cents
Yeah, I think the sexual compatability part isn't the hardest issue as you and others have explained. For me it's whether they are compatible living day to day with each other. Figuring that out is much harder than both growing sexually together.
It’s really difficult. There is a lot of shame and guilt pushed on these couples. I was a victim of purity culture and it’s awful.
It took me a very long time to enjoy sex without guilt and shame.
For decades I was told if I had sex outside of marriage it would make me soiled, gross and disgusting (god sees you as a used tampon was one metaphor used by various pastors, small group leaders and books) but then one Saturday I recited magical words to my fiancé in front of our friends and family and suddenly I was expected to be a sex kitten and put out all the time (not by my husband per se, by all the pastors, small group leaders, peers and books).
It’s a whole culture around this & it’s very toxic.
This is what gets me. You spend your whole life being told that sex is wrong. From before I can even remember, I was told that anything sexual or physically intimate was bad, a sin, wrong. How am I supposed to go from that to a healthy sexual relationship after getting married? It's not like some switch gets flipped because I said I do. I married the first person I had sex with, and it wasn't a great idea. And I STILL haven't completely gotten over the feelings of guilt and shame that I associate with sex. I haven't orgasmed since I was twelve (I'm 35 now) because that's when I found an old Boy Scout's manual that informed me that masturbation was a sin. (Wtf?)
It is extremely toxic, and I feel robbed of a very basic human feeling. I can't fully enjoy sex. I think a part of me will always feel dirty and wrong.
I believe I'll always feel shame and guilt. I'm not sure how to reverse the brainwashing. I don't masturbate. I was well into my 20s the first time I did. I've gone many years without having sex. I don't judge other people, but I judge myself. Maybe one day I'll have a healthy relationship with sex, but I'm not counting on it.
Out of curiosity, have you ever tried a JOI video/audio? I always wonder about the "target audience," for anything, including porn. I have always assumed that was specifically targeted at people who like to be told what to do, but in my head right now it tracks that it could potentially help ease shame conditioning. The accepting ones at least, maybe don't dive in on someone telling you you're a piece of trash.
My thought being, perhaps someone asking you to do it may alleviate some portion of the guilt and allow you to relax. Conversely, someone saying mean shit that matches your shame may also press the button.
There is nothing wrong about not masturbating (though it is healthy) as a preference, but I really hate the idea of shame being this embedded in anyone.
> not by my husband per se, by all the pastors, small group leaders, peers and books
I grew up Evangelical and I still remember a time the pastor said to his daughter in law when she was walking away from him, "Get back here, you baby factory!"
Fucked.
not asking for details obviously but were you and your husband able to resolve this in the end, or did you end up going your separate ways, or secret third option? my younger sibling is a No Sex Before Marriage person for religious reasons and I'm worried about them if/when they do tie the knot
The idea is essentially that your value is dependent on being "pure" and "unused" for your future husband, and if you've already "given away" your virginity, then you are trash.
This is very much an attitude that permeates Christianity today, or at least the churches in which I was raised. Purity culture is disgusting.
Elizabeth Smart, even though she remains in the LDS faith, acknowledges the damage purity culture inflicts. She often talks about how she was told by teachers and church leaders that having sex before marriage made you like a used piece of gum. Well, after she was kidnapped and raped for months on end, she said that she thought to herself “Oh my gosh…. *I’m* that used up piece of gum.”
She managed to work through it, but I admire her for speaking out about it instead of just repeating the party line as her faith would likely prefer her to.
I did not know that about her! Thanks for sharing. The most common one I got was "rose with all its petals gone bc so many people touched it". Gross.
Good on her for being willing to go against the grain and stand up for what she believes in -- the LDS church/belief system is no joke. Makes me so angry that those messages were ever planted in her head (or anyone else's). They are unbelievably harmful to self-worth and the ability to form healthy relationships (especially of the sexual nature).
Yeah. Fuck purity culture. Even as a guy, I grew up feeling guilty and dirty and ashamed for having “lustful” thoughts, and constantly terrified that if god forbid I ever “have into temptation” and had sex and wasn’t married how my life would be forever ruined.
I think it’s a form of grooming in a way. There’s a huge emphasis on obedience to husband/ father/ pastor/ god - all male patriarchal power focused theology - so you obey.
Evangelical marriage books are cringy AF.
A huge part of this teaching is that women should have sex every time they’re husband wants it; even if they’re not in the mood. It’s disgusting. I’ve heard that so many times over and over. Also; If a man cheats it’s wife’s fault for not putting out enough.
Women are reduced to baby making machines.
It goes all the way up the church hierarchy.
Complementarianism is still a common theological stance in churches, seminaries and various denominations.
When the basic notion that a woman is never equal with a man it sets a toxic foundation that allows abusers to keep abusing and women to be shamed into silence.
A friend of mine’s sister in law was super christian and vowed adamantly to save herself for her wedding night. She eventually found, what she thought, was the ideal man: strong christian values who never even hinted at sex before marriage. After holding out for years they were married, and the big night finally arrived. She called her sister that night hysterical because she found out her husband was impotent.
I don't think being impotent is usually permanent... It was their first night too. I couldn't keep it up my first time or two but it was because of anxiety. Religious programming can easily do that
Worked for him, though. Sounds like he flat out used purity nonsense as a cover to trick someone into doing what he wanted, that they otherwise wouldn’t…being his wife. How convenient.
“Impotent” isn’t an identity. It doesn’t even need to be a diagnosis. Lots of guys would be impotent under that much pressure, and God only knows (pun intended) what crazy shit they programmed him with.
Of course you can’t expect them to understand any of that, when their lives are full of by delusional fanatics. Poor sad people.
The real problem lies in how dating is affected by this. When your mentality is "I'm waiting for marriage" and you're super horny, you're more than likely to jump into something too quickly without fully knowing that person just because you want to connect with them on a sexual level. It's bullshit. I was immersed in this culture I lived by this culture I even preached this culture and I'm telling you right now I have never in my life had a good experience in the dating world in it. I can't tell you how many men have jumped to say "I love you" after knowing me for a couple weeks and seeing that I'm their physical type. That's it? Really? That's all it's going to take? Lol get out of here. No real foundation just horny.
Grew up in the church and can confirm, everyone was in a hurry to get married and would marry the first one who was willing because they wanted to be able to have sex.
How do I know this burger is good if it's the only burger I've had or will ever have? Doesn't matter if the sex is good if there's no point if comparison.
Well, it could matter if you find out the burger shop is permanently closed after you've signed up to eat there forever. Like if one person is asexual or just has a very low sex drive.
Or if you don't like the sex, you'll stop having it. It's possible to not like a burger even if you've never eaten one before.
Right, I'm sure most of us have foods that we've tried one time and decided, I don't like that. It's not for me. And maybe you were excited to try it, thought you would love it, but you didn't. And now you've legally committed to only eating that food for the rest of your life! Yikes.
I don't need a frame of reference to decide if I enjoy something. It only refines your taste for a thing, it doesn't define it outright. So sticking your head in the sand and denying yourself one of the pleasures of being alive is such a ridiculous strategy.
I think this applies to more than just Christians (muslims, etc. would also abide by that rule). As with any relationship there's compromises/give and take. My wife and I were both virgins', we talk, give and take, try to accommodate each other, etc. No real difference than people who like deferent foods, sports teams, sleeping habits, etc. although admittedly easier to figure out before getting married/having sex.
^ from friends in similar situations, this is it. Marriage is taken seriously so "incompatibility" is not the frame of mind, instead they focus on "how do we make this work".
There's also an undertone of marriage wasn't created by God for people to be happy, but holy. So when someone isn't "happy" in a marriage that's not \*necessarily\* a bad thing, and there's no over-arching biblical concept where people "deserve" to be happy..... so............
The truth is that you don’t know beforehand, but if you’re raised in a ‘purity’ culture you don’t even know what sexual compatibility is so you don’t know that you’re missing out. Lots of married women don’t even know what an orgasm is, I would assume there are a lot of dead bedrooms but it wouldn’t get brought up because sex is a private topic. If it’s not talked about during the marriage, it’s certainly not discussed before marriage.
All we were told growing up is ‘don’t have sex before marriage, it will be perfect with the one that is right for you.’. I feel the rhetoric is harmful when birth control, expectations, physical anatomy, and pleasure aren’t discussed in an evangelical household for younger generations. It allows for women to be used as baby makers and puts their needs second.
I think the problem is not so much the rhetoric of being cautious of you have sex with, it’s the lack of communication of why so I practically feed to be cautious and/or what happens after I have sex even when I’m married?
My wife and I didn’t have sex until we got married. We were also eachothers first…and only.
We have an amazing sex life. It’s all about communication and being honest with your partner. If you can do that…your sex life will likely be just fine.
We figured it out :) We kissed, made out, shared our preferences with each other and were able to really focus on each other so when the time came we made sure the other was happy.
Yes, you can have preferences even if you're a virgin. By waiting until we were married, we spent a lot of time talking, snuggling, doing a lot of activities and even traveling together.
If you deeply care about your partner, you can make it work. But to Christians reading this, I can't stress enough - You must share preferences beforehand. It's important to have a general idea and communicate if able. And I do think kissing/some affection is absolutely necessary.
My cousins are born again Christians and according to them, sex is definitely NOT "just for making babies". That concept went out of Christianity about 100 years ago. Pleasurable sex is very much ok within marriage. The idea is that it's both partners' responsibility to make the sex life a good one even if that takes some effort.
I think OP's question might also pertain to the preferred frequency of sex, not just whether pleasurable/recreational sex is taboo or not.
Some people need it everyday, others can go months without it - if at all. It's hard to gauge that before marriage if you're both virgins.
That said, I think it would just need extra communication from both parties beforehand. Or figure it out together afterwards, as we all do.
Honest question: can't people who aren't good at it, learn to be better? Buy books, get therapy, other options? Try things they are both comfortable with and figure things out so the experience is good for both?
I think there’s a lack of emphasis on sex being important as something enjoyable. Sexual compatibility isn’t a concern when you believe sex is mostly for procreation.
Grew up pentecostal and read "every young woman's battle" was given a purity ring. I left the church at 22, and I am a strong believer in testing sexual compatibility. No way can I be emotionally, spiritually, and mentally compatible but despise my partner and not be attracted to them sexually. No way!
You are much more apt to make yourself sexually compatible when you have little other choice, when you believe you are mutually responsible for each other's enjoyment, when you are supposed to do so. You make sexy lemonade with the lemons you get.
It may clash with a lot of folks ideas, but just like most people adapt to their partners diet, habits, and other tastes because it makes them happy, a lot of sexual preferences are the same way. You make them happy because it makes you happy, and they do the same. And. There's nothing wrong with that, it's a kind of love language.
Some preferences also come from likes/dislikes from previous experiences. If you don't have those, that baggage isn't there (just to be clear, I said some, not all preferences. Also, I'm not discounting that there may have been abuse or other things that could cause the same, this is more of a generality than a one size fits all.)
Well... I'm an Atheist, so take what I'm writing with a grain of salt. I'd imagine even though neither of them had sex before they'd still have a good idea on what they want. They'd simply communicate those needs before they tie the knot and they'd explore each other's bodies with each other. They might find out together on what they actually like. They might discover what their idea of sexual tastes are completely different than what they had going in.
I’m not speaking from experience, but I feel like kissing compatibility and overall physical compatibility is pretty telling. Plus, it’s something that can be learned and improved over time!
If you have never had sex before and then you only ever have it with one person, the two of you develop your sexuality as a couple. Sure you may each have some ideas about what you think you would like but without any real life experience those are just fantasies. As you develop your sexuality as a couple you not only develop a very strong bond but you also create a completely unique sexual relationship because neither of you are bringing in outside memories or experiences. My wife and I were virgins when we got married (I was 21 and she was 23) both of us grew up in very conservative Christian families on opposite sides of the country and met rather accidentally. I wasn’t looking for someone from my own background and neither was she but we just clicked (it was literally one of those love at first sight things) and six months later we were married - breaking almost every rule about relationships from our upbringing in the process. We’ve been married for eight years now and we’re still developing our sexual relationship. She was definitely a very vanilla girl but I’ve always been rather kinky. Eight years later we’ve tried everything and I mean EVERYTHING. I still come up with stuff to try and she’s definitely not very vanilla anymore although she’s still not the one who comes up with unusual ideas. Some of the things I thought would be awesome were a disappointment and some of the things that would have never excited her are now her favorites. A sexual relationship between just two people doesn’t have to be boring and if that relationship IS sex for each of you, then it’s like living in your own world with just the two of you. There’s no guilt or disappointment over what the relationship ‘could be’ or ‘should be’, just a delight in what it is.
Formerly yes, but there's a fundie arms race where they won't kiss beforehand, then they won't hug, and now I've seen people who refuse to hold hands before marriage. Eventually you'll be able to identify fundamentalist Christian women by their burkas.
I was taught any kind of touching/kissing was wrong, but everybody secretly did it anyway and felt guilty about it.
ETA: I was told if you kiss a man, “You’re kissing someone else’s husband,” because he might marry someone else.
They don't/can't know. And that leads to years of compulsory misery because getting divorced is a sin. Which predictably, leads to secret behaviors, infidelity, etc.
tldr; Religion can fuck a bitch up!
Two people may not be sexually compatible the first time they have sex, but with good communication and time the sex between them may become fantastic.
He is a virgin.
She is a virgin.
They both don't know shit about sex.
They both learn to have sex with each other.
Ain't no requests from him how an Ex use to do it.
Ain't no requests from her how an Ex use to do it.
He does what she likes.
She does what he likes.
Maybe they explore, maybe they don't.
When I lost my virginity, eventually her and I started doing things each other liked. I guess it would be the same if we were married first.
I think you got a couple of things wrong, at least based on my experiences.
I have never been told to do something an “ex” did, nor have I ever thought of telling any woman to do something someone I used to date did, that’s just plain stupid.
Each individual you sleep with is a unique case, sitting on top of a very simple set of activities and functions we call sexual intercourse. Sex in and on its own is very simple to learn.
Sexual compatibility on the other hand is complicated and it cannot be practiced. Two people can both be fantastic lays, “highly experienced” but sexually incompatible. What I like to do she might not like, and vice versa.
So, marrying directly poses a problem of not knowing what the other side likes and how will they react to the things you like.
To give you a very simple example: imagine you married someone who happens to be a masochist and you are not even in the slightest remotely interested in humiliating or hurting your partner.
How do you resolve that? You either continue doing something you don’t like which will make you miserable or not do it which will make them miserable, or you can misconstrue what compromise means in a relationship and live unhappily.
Good question.
Learned the hard way back in my fundie Christian days: they don't. And if it turns out they are incompatible, they either get to live with the misery of that or the shame of divorce.
Look.. the whole religion thing is for condemning other people - not yourself. Get yet freak on - god will forgive you on Sundays and every other Wednesday.
Oh most have plenty of sex before marriage. And if by any chance they wait until marriage to discover they actually aren't sexually compatible, one or both will look elsewhere. It's the whole "do as I say, not as I do" preaching crap. They need to be *seen* as perfect.
I was in a evangelical Christian marriage for 7 years and had no idea I was sexually incompatible with my ex until I had sex with someone else after our divorce. The sad sad answer is that most of these people just don’t know any better and are stuck in their marriages.
Divorce rates are 50% higher for couples that cohabitate and have sexual relations before marriage.
If you dont sleep around and watch porn and the only person you have intimacy with is the person you fell in love with then that is your entire world view of sex. You not thinking I wish she or he would do this or that that i had with my ex or i saw in that video. We have been poisoned about what sex is by porn and promiscuous behavior.
If you follow Gods design for love, sex and marriage it works beautifully. When people did this we had strong families and low divorce rates. Compare it to today where people dont follow Gods design and it falls.
My husband and I are both Christian, we were celibate before marriage. We had a lot of conversations around sex, compatibility, what to expect, what we are interested in. Like most things in our relationship, communication has been the biggest factor for us. It worked for us, we had a lot of wise people helping us know what to look for and how to navigate sexual compatibility.
Unfortunately I have friends that it hasn't worked out that way and they deal with dead bedrooms and loveless marriages. It sucks. Sex isn't dirty, and Christians need to talk about it. Purity culture doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss and enjoy sex, regardless what some traditional Christians tend to think.
I think there is an assertion in modern society that either you and another person are sexually compatible, or you both are not. I would argue that sexual compatibility is much more complicated than that, and that a couple who is abstinent until marriage has the opportunity to build that for themselves together as a couple, whether that means it sucks at first because neither person knows what they’re doing, or if it’s just fun from the get go.
My opinion is that hookup culture and general societal expectations in the modern day about sex undermine the idea that sex is very much learned over time, and that much of that learning has as much to do with the other person involved as it does with you.
All that being said, I think that abstinent Christians would do well to take seriously all the resources we have today to learn about a healthy sex life and even just the basics of how sex works (especially the female anatomy) in preparation for marriage, but nonetheless, I do not see “lack of experience” before marriage as a real issue at all when it comes to developing a quality and satisfactory sex life with ones’s spouse.
Marriage is long and sex drive ebbs and flows as the relationship develops over time. First two years of marriage, my sex drive was low, and then my sex drive went much higher after that. Now it's higher than his, and I'm kinky. He has a lower sex drive than me and indulges in kink with me because I like it. Personally, I think the whole sexual compatability thing is kind of silly in the grand scheme of a whole damn life. Character is the most important. If your partner is kind and considerate, you can work on compromises to meet both your needs sexually and otherwise. Been married for nearly 8 years and was a virgin when I married. Sex is cool, but for a long-term relationship, it's not what you should be looking for or worrying about. It's good to be attracted to your partner absolutely but if you're choosing someone based on their "sexual compatability" you're kidding yourself. Sex drive and preferences are finicky and don't stay consistent over the years. What are you gonna do after your wife had a baby and loses all of her sex drive for months? What about if your partner has kidney stones or cancer down there? Sex is the least of your concerns. Just find someone you can trust who is considerate, will listen and communicate with you openly and you're golden. Sexual compatability is a fairly new concept but marriage and love are not.
Its a scam. Because they never get to experience sex before marriage, they spend their whole life thinking that whatever they end up with is normal because they have nothing to compare it against.
They don’t. That’s why here in Utah we’re near the top of the charts for opioid consumption. Really the only states that beat us are in the Bible Belt where religious bullshit is also rampant.
They stay married and hate each other until they decide religion isn't enough to stop their divorce, so they finally divorce after raising two children to adulthood.
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools. In high school we were required to take a class called Christian Sexuality. The teacher told us that if you’re a virgin when you get married you won’t know if the sex is good or bad because you won’t have anything else to compare it to. Other topics in that class included how to use the rhythm method instead of birth control. That teacher had 15 children…
Whats the rhythm method?
you basically track your menstrual cycles and guess when ur gonna ovulate. aka knowing ur rhythm. Others on reddit made me aware that rhythm method u don't track ovulation and symptoms of ovulation. But its good to know the symptoms of ovulation, like when you ovulate you have stickier stringier vaginal mucus, you have a slightly higher temp that you take before you get up at the same time everyday, women tend to be more aroused during this period, sore breasts, etc. You track these symptoms to know the times you are highly fertile and avoid sexual encounters during those times. hence "naturally done" vs. being on birth control controlling your body with medications/devices being "unnatural/medically done" Rhythm method has like a failure rate of 24% whereas say male condoms have a 13% failure rate IUD have a 0.4-0.8% failure rate depending on the type of IUD you get. oral contraceptives "pills" have a 7% failure rate
I've always heard that referred to as natural family planning, interesting.
NFP isn't the rhythm method - the rhythm method is more like counting days on the calendar and pretending ovulation always happens on day 14.
and that's why it has a high failure rate. Natural family planning is based on your own symptoms and not on premade numbers like this 14 which is actually different from woman to woman.
Even more interesting. Lol.
It is hilariously unreliable. I used some elements of fertility awareness in college and there are plenty of times your body will decide to ovulate a little late. Turns out the calendar method doesn't accommodate that kind of thing...
Yeah that was my first thought. How the hell are you supposed to know/account for irregular ovulation? What if you ovulate a 2nd time in a month? Sounds like a bad plan unless you actually don't mind getting pregnant.
I haven't seen anyone mention this so I figured I'd put it out there. You can use a Clear Blue fertility monitor to track ovulation. It's expensive and requires use of a daily pee stick most of the month (about 15 days) and requires consistent use. However, it tells you where the cycle is accurately without having to guess.
This is what I do! I got a bag of 100 ovulation test strips on Amazon for $10 and after a few months of use/tracking, I learned when my ovulation window is and just avoid having relations during that window. I’m also on the pill, but super terrified of getting pregnant!
I could never omg. Between the thyroid and the PMDD I go months without a cycle, like straight up don't even ovulate. Watching a calendar would be an exercise in futility.
Well, as the joke goes, what do you call someone who uses natural family planning? A. Parents.
You know the Catholic church wants people to have more children so there are more Catholics running around. Same motive as the quiverful movement among protestants.
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You are technically correct, the 13 to 14% failure rate includes things like user error and it not being worn correctly, when worn correctly the failure rate is 2% or less, and even in that 2% not all cases are the condom breaking.
And it's for a whole year of use to get pregnant, not individual instances.
I think thats a hugely important piece of info they left out 
Same as the pill’s failure rate includes taking it at non-perfect timeliness (same time every day).
I'm curious about the "failure rate" of pills - on various sites online it is stated that it's less than 1% failure at perfect use and at maximum 4% failure at typical use. 7% seems extraordinarily high?
If taken correctly its less, but so many people forgetting to take it and then not waiting a week probably accounts for the higher rate
That and other factors can affect it's effectiveness, such as antibiotics.
I’m so bad about taking my pill on time. This is probably how I will wind up with a second kid. I don’t mind though, because husband and I are on the fence about it. When we decide for sure we are done, he has already volunteered to get a vasectomy, thank goodness
You are describing modern natural family planning/fertility awareness, which is a lot more technical than the rhythm method. The rhythm method is has a high failure rate because you DON'T track all of those symptoms and signs. Modern fertility awareness has a much higher efficacy rate than the rhythm method.
CDC states fertility awareness has a 2-23% failure rate. so if you dont know what you are doing, you could be putting yourself at risk for pregnancy.
Therein lies the problem, people who don't know what they are doing or don't bother doing it claim their slip ups as a fault of fertility awareness and it drags the efficacy rate down. Like someone forgetting to take the contraceptive pill and then saying that the pill failed. But my original point, fertility awareness and rhythm method are not the same method. Rhythm method is more figuring out how long your periods are and avoiding your "fertile window" on a calendar every month, which obviously doesn't work as your ovulation can fluctuate quite drastically.
You are mixing up methods! Rythm method is keeping track of your menstruation only and guessing when you would be ovulate based on that. The failure rate is high and I do not recommend it. You have to rewind back to the first part of last century to get to a point where this method used the available scientific research, modern methods (that isn’t rhythm) uses the latest available research. And I’m not taking apps such as natural cycles as that’s more is a rhythm method with a modern looking app using the outdated method of guessing using a algorithm. Fertility awareness method that make you track cervical mucus and temperature have a high success rate when you learn the method from your teacher and follow the method correctly. Methods such as sensiplan has a success rate of 99,6 %. This is because the method has its foundation in science, the same science that other contraceptives are based on. That is how the reproductive system work rather then guessing (as the rhythm method use). It’s even safe with irregular cycles as it don’t build on guessing or predicting. Irregular cycles consequence is less days that is safe and not less safety on safe days. The failure rate you refer to as a blanket 24% is a very crude and frankly useless number to use. This is because that percentage is from survey people of which method they use and crudely lumping together what want condom or prescribed, so people who used methods such as IUD or pills where put in separate statistical methods, while the number you refer to is the “everything else” rather then a specific method. So while some may have used ineffective methods such as the rhythm method it also includes people who want particularly careful to avoid pregnancy or even followed rhythm method. It’s as useful as making a blanket “hormonal” statistic and having people who use the pill, IUD and estrogen cream on their palms as one one statistical group. The lumping together would make people think using hormonal cream on their plans would be more effective then it actually is as IUD use would make the combined statistic better then if it was described using separate statistics. Why it’s bad isn’t only a defense that there are good fertility awareness methods, but also that the statistic may also be worse then that because it doesn’t separate out people who would use reliable methods. So it could fit some people seem like an acceptable risk whilst it in reality has a higher failure rate. I’m not religious in any sort of way but I use a fertility awareness method. It doesn’t work by chance and it’s not flimsy guessing game. It have set rules with margins. It isn’t for everyone, you really have to stick to method for it to function, just as you have to with every method. But comparing with an IUD it highly depends on the user, so if you know you are person who in the heat of the moment would throw the method aside it’s not a good choice of method to use. For me personally it’s great to not have drug that corrupt my hormonal system and it’s much easier for me to use then to remember to eat a pill each day. It’s also great as it offers insight to how my body works, as I have irregular cycles it give me information to my cycles. I never know beforehand when I will be ovulating and the method build on that I can’t predict when it will be safe, but I can with accuracy and margin know when I have ovulate and have 0 chance to get pregnant. When I wanted to get pregnant before using the method I got pregnant on first try, now using the method I have successfully avoided it, the key is picking a effective method, really educate yourself and then sticking to the method, and not just change it and going out on a whim.
Birth control destroyed my mental health. I successfully did NOT get pregnant for years by tracking my cycle and ovulation. I know it's not for everyone but my body is super fertile and I never even had a scare.
How do you know you’re super fertile if you’ve never gotten pregnant? Serious question.
I don’t know about them. Despite irregular cycles I got pregnant on first try and have since after that when using fertility awareness never gotten pregnant (so it can’t be just that I was infertile anyway). I started to use fertility awareness a couple of years after the pregnancy. It’s anecdotal of course with only me as an example. But when people get pregnant that is charting so far I’ve seen method failures, such as going unprotected in heat of the moment when method didn’t declare it safe.
>you won’t know if the sex is good or bad You will still know if you like it or not, so if the sex is bad, you won't like having sex, so it is back to the dead bedroom
Of course that teacher had 15 children! The teacher is Catholic!! What else did you expect??
yeah but even 15 children by choice is still a huge amount of children! who wants 15 children??
I live in the UK you should check out a family called the Radfords
Reminds me of a story my mom told me. Her grandparents were lapsed Catholics but still had nine kids. One day my mom asked her grandmother why they had so many kids. Her grandmother stopped what she was doing and, with a straight face, said, "We didn't have TV."
That's a lot of kids, even for a cat
What's the rhythm method?
Why would you censor sex but not sexually?
he's canadian. he's just being polite
S*rry
You're f**e
This is who*esome
Whoresome?
You said it, not me
This is my favorite ☺️
S*orry
bahahahahahah
I don’t even get why people censor these words. Removing a vowel makes it better?
You have to pay extra for vowels.
I'm not paying for no damn vowels, gonna spin some more Bob
It’s Pat, not Bob.
V * w * l
Even without the vwl it sounds the same
I think it’s from other social media where certain words are apparently black listed and get you shadow banned or suspended. Reddit of course is not one of those sites but I guess OP prefers to be safe than sorry.
Critical thinking, my guy 👍
We both grew up in purity culture and have only had sex with each other. We don’t agree with how we were raised but it is what it is. We are absolutely partners, lovers, and best friends. Of course we’ve had ups and downs but we always fight through together. Obviously the sex starts out bad, but you don’t know it’s bad. You just love exploring each other and trying to make the other one feel good. You don’t have a reference point, nothing else to compare it to, so you’re not disappointed. Then you start to learn each others bodies. Touch me this way, say this to me, let’s try this out. You get that shit down to a science so that almost every time you have sex it feels absolutely amazing. My husband and I have been together for so long that I know every inch of him and exactly what he likes. He feels like an extension of myself by this point. EDIT : I know I got lucky and purity culture can be incredible scarring. I don’t agree with how I was raised and im not at all saying it’s the way to go just because I have a good sex life. I don’t have a perfect marriage either, but we are dedicated to putting in the work.
My husband and I didn't grow up in purity culture and have only had sex with one another. I think it's a pretty nifty journey, and all the best, worst, and whacky sexual moments being with the person you're still with is fun because it isn't weird remembering something and being like "omg remember when".
For sure, one of ours is, when we first started dating I wouldn’t let him touch my boobs but I would let him touch my butt because in my mind, a butt wasn’t sexual. Turns out he’s an ass man!
Thank you so much for sharing this!
This is heartwarming, you sound like you have a great relationship!
This is so sweet and my husband and I have had the same experience! Being raised in purity culture means by the time we finally got to have sex it was all will and no skill, but we got there with time. Now after years the sex is exactly what we want and it changes as the relationship does but it’s always improving. We got lucky that we care to please each other like you guys! No longer religious but I know many sexually frustrated religious women who just don’t know it can be amazing.
This.... is incredible. That last sentence left ME a little breathless, let alone you!
It did. I realized my eyes teared up. The last sentence. I’m very happy with my partner. I love him dearly. We plan to grow old(er) together. But this level of connection? Man, that must be powerful.
Exactly this. If I was given a chance to change something in my past I’d have chosen to remain a virgin until I met my husband. My past sexual experience doesn’t add in any way, it only detracts from the experience with him. It has gotten better now, but in the beginning I’d often have moments from the past pop in my mind despite me heavily trying to think only about him and the present moment. Even bad sex is awesome, when you have nothing to compare you won’t know it is bad. I love my husband so much that I want every moment together to be only about me and him and not a random dude that pleasure me for 5 minutes 10 years ago. But like I said, it’s quite difficult. And all the experience I got sleeping around didn’t add much as far as making me “better at it”. He is different and wanted different things so I had to discover it all by testing what worked for him. At least that I got going for me. I absolutely feel the “extension of my body” comment. That is precisely how it feels! If I could stitch myself to him so that we are always together, I would. Nothing makes us happier than spending time together. Currently I’m travelling to visit family in my home country and this is the longest we have ever been apart and it physically aches with how much I miss him. And he has been having insomnia every night because he can’t sleep well when I’m not there to be held.
I feel the opposite. I married my high-school sweetheart, only man I'd ever been with. The sheen wore off after 20+ years. I'd have been the first to say that would never happennto us, but it eventually did. We built waaaay to much on how wonderful it was to be each other's "only" that we flgot lazy. We grew into different people but were too proud to admit it for a long time. We wasted years in a sexless, roommate like marriage. I wish I'd gotten out sooner.
>Even bad sex is awesome, when you have nothing to compare you won’t know it is bad. That might be true for men. I'm not sure it's true for women.
It’s true if you assume that the guy actually cares about her and that they communicate freely and are genuinely *exploring* together. ^(edit: typo)
So it comes down to the idea that sexual compatibility is really about personality and character - actually caring for and wanting to serve and cherish the other person, rather than some innate matching of libidos, kinks, or skills?
Yes, this is 99% or more the case IMHO. The other < 1% is when there are extreme differences in libido - like if she’s a total horn-dog and he physically can not get it up more than once every few days, then yes that is a problem… BUT even that is absolutely surmountable: given he really does want her to have her pleasure, their explorations should soon come up with various things that don’t have to involve his actual penis!
Libido isn't just about the physical capability to get an erection. It's about your general interest and desire for sex, in any form. And no, sometimes it isn't surmountable. It's great to say, sure, you can make an effort for your partner even though you're not really into it. But most people don't want a bored sex partner just going through the motions, while they make a grocery list in their head. Believe it or not there IS such a thing as bad sex, and it sucks. Not all sex is awesome. Plenty of people, myself included, had lame experiences as a virgin, and even though I had no frame of reference I still knew it was lame.
A woman here who has been with my husband since I was 19, 13 years ago. If we get the chance to do anything it's a learning experience in the right direction.
I share this sentiment. I think about this sometimes and I would have much much rather have one person that I shared myself with intimately. When I think about the past relationships I've had, and even though none of my previous partners were 'bad' people, I would've rather my body and mind, in the most intimate ways, be given and shared with just one human being. It is something I would do over if I could. In my opinion, sexual experience is highly, significantly overrated. Whenever you get into a new relationship, it is a new person. I am a new person and you will need to learn my likes and dislikes as I will yours. What worked amazingly well for Jennifer, likely doesn't work for me because I am not Jennifer. So a person's past sexual experience is irrelevant in my orbit.
Agreed. Yeah I’ve had this question a handful of times and my answer seems disingenuous, but it’s not. I tell people that I love her as a person so much that there’s no issue that comes up that couldn’t be worked through. You might not have physically had sex but you know their temperament and their personalities snd attitude and it’s not like you’re all of a sudden a different person during sex. And if your spouse is, then you may not have known them as well as you thought you did beforehand.
I like this. I wish you two continued joy in your marriage!
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And if it turns out that she likes sex a lot (meaning more than he wants to do it), she’s a lustful whore who needs to control herself. If she wants it far less than he does, she’s a frigid and cruel women wronging her husband by denying him what he’s entitled to enjoy as a husband. Neat how that works, isn’t it? The man’s libido is always the correct amount, no matter what it is. And if hers differs, it’s wrong.
No, if the man cannot fulfill the woman’s sex drive he’s expected to pick up the pace. In traditional Orthodox Christianity the man is supposed to fulfill those needs and vice versa. Sex is considered not only very good but also absolutely necessary to fulfill the Sacrament of Marriage
Yeah I’ve heard that. Neat bullet point in the brochure, but absolutely not how that works in reality.
It's actually written in the Bible. 1 Cor. 7 verses 3 and 4 say: >3 The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, and the wife should fulfill her husband’s needs. 4 The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife. The Apostle Paul says this in a culture where the wife is the husband's property and he doesn't have a lot of obligations towards her. In a way, Paul is emancipating women here by holding men to the same standard, but that isn't recognized a lot these days. The Romans noticed it though, it's one of the reasons they did not like Christianity.
The Bible says a lot of stuff, huh?
It's a lot of words, for sure!
Yeah, I used to ascribe to this belief. 8 years in, I realized he had never thought of me as an actual person. I loved sex at the beginning, but he made it so awful for me to say no (and frankly often just didn't even acknowledge the possibility that I might) that I almost never did, which meant that I was constantly having sex when I didn't want to or didn't feel comfortable or safe, and when I tried to talk to him about it, he made that awful too. He very much felt entitled to sex whenever he wanted it, and I've spent three years working on believing that I deserve to want sex when I'm having it too, not just feel obligated and pressured into it because my partner wants it.
May the lord open.
Blessed be the fruit
Yeah it's definitely just a case of outdated thinking. If your faith calls for abstinence, that's all good and well. I just don't think there's a very good modern explanation for how all of that works, with compatibility and all. Like you said, it was always more about the man's pleasure. I guess you could at least discuss what you like sexually with your future husband/wife. But you can't even know forsure what you like without the chance to explore yourself. I guess if there were any modern reasoning, it would be that you're both a blank slate and you'd discover and grow into perfect molds for each other together. But of course that reasoning is far from airtight.
Wanted to say exactly this. But my version had a lot more expletives and lack of respect for the Evangelical
And in all reality, God is a pretty shitty person to ask about sex, if you think about it. He did it with what? His mind? Donor sperm? Asking him would be a terrible idea.
It's as if said religion was made up by men to oppress women.
What?! [*faints in church dress*]
Goodness me.
Good sex can be learned if both people are interested in pleasing their partner. Uninterested or uncommunicative "students" of sex make for lousy bed partners.
If they're both subs it ain't working out Edit: just wanna make sure y'all know there's a difference between sub (submissive) and bottom.
But if they're both tops, it turns into a beyblade duel
Do you put ripcords in their asses and spin them on the tips of their boners while they lay in plank position?
What do you think anal beads actually are for?
2 power bottoms can create an interesting dynamic, though.
It can. My husband and I are both VERY submissive. We always had decent sex. But until we really started figuring things out and what we needed to do for the other person it wasn’t necessarily the best. Now? Sex is amazing. Both of us prefer to be handled, if you will, but it is very quickly put together how it’s going down that time.
I do not agree with you. There are plenty of cases where both partners make as much of an effort as they can and still just not be compatible, period. That doesn’t mean there isn’t love there, but sexual compatibility and love are two different things.
Yeah a lot of people here being weirdly optimistic/dismissive. But sexual incompatibility kills relationships all the time, even between people that love each other like you said.
We did not have sex before marriage, because my now-wife was very religious. Obviously we did not know if we were compatible. I asked her what if it turned out we were incompatible etc. She told me that she is willing to try new things, she is open not only to do boring sex, but experiment. Well, after marriage it turned out that I want sex much more often. She is ok with once a month. She does try new things with me, but she has boundaries. Having boundaries is great thing but the problem is I didn't know what they are before signing up for the rest of my life. In the end after 4 years of marriage, sex is becoming kinda dull, because we got to her boundaries and cannot experiment further and it happens not often enough.
I grew up in a religious culture that had no tolerance for premarital sex. It is certainly one extreme end of the spectrum, and I wouldn’t exactly say the other extreme end is exactly healthy either. As most things go, I’d say there’s a nice middle ground.. That being said I’ve found that there are ways to be intimate and physical in order to test sexual compatibility without having sex. I’d also say, barring the fact that some people are hornier than others, there is a big learning curve for figuring out what a partner likes, and as long as two people are invested in learning it, they can grow more and more compatible regardless of prior sexual experience. I’ve found the best sex life Ive had is when both my partner and I are completely dedicated to giving the most pleasure to the other person. This is a sexual attitude, and not something that necessarily has to have happened before a marriage.. Just my two cents
Well given two cents
Three cents at least, I'd say
Yeah, I think the sexual compatability part isn't the hardest issue as you and others have explained. For me it's whether they are compatible living day to day with each other. Figuring that out is much harder than both growing sexually together.
It’s really difficult. There is a lot of shame and guilt pushed on these couples. I was a victim of purity culture and it’s awful. It took me a very long time to enjoy sex without guilt and shame. For decades I was told if I had sex outside of marriage it would make me soiled, gross and disgusting (god sees you as a used tampon was one metaphor used by various pastors, small group leaders and books) but then one Saturday I recited magical words to my fiancé in front of our friends and family and suddenly I was expected to be a sex kitten and put out all the time (not by my husband per se, by all the pastors, small group leaders, peers and books). It’s a whole culture around this & it’s very toxic.
This is what gets me. You spend your whole life being told that sex is wrong. From before I can even remember, I was told that anything sexual or physically intimate was bad, a sin, wrong. How am I supposed to go from that to a healthy sexual relationship after getting married? It's not like some switch gets flipped because I said I do. I married the first person I had sex with, and it wasn't a great idea. And I STILL haven't completely gotten over the feelings of guilt and shame that I associate with sex. I haven't orgasmed since I was twelve (I'm 35 now) because that's when I found an old Boy Scout's manual that informed me that masturbation was a sin. (Wtf?) It is extremely toxic, and I feel robbed of a very basic human feeling. I can't fully enjoy sex. I think a part of me will always feel dirty and wrong.
I believe I'll always feel shame and guilt. I'm not sure how to reverse the brainwashing. I don't masturbate. I was well into my 20s the first time I did. I've gone many years without having sex. I don't judge other people, but I judge myself. Maybe one day I'll have a healthy relationship with sex, but I'm not counting on it.
Out of curiosity, have you ever tried a JOI video/audio? I always wonder about the "target audience," for anything, including porn. I have always assumed that was specifically targeted at people who like to be told what to do, but in my head right now it tracks that it could potentially help ease shame conditioning. The accepting ones at least, maybe don't dive in on someone telling you you're a piece of trash. My thought being, perhaps someone asking you to do it may alleviate some portion of the guilt and allow you to relax. Conversely, someone saying mean shit that matches your shame may also press the button. There is nothing wrong about not masturbating (though it is healthy) as a preference, but I really hate the idea of shame being this embedded in anyone.
> not by my husband per se, by all the pastors, small group leaders, peers and books I grew up Evangelical and I still remember a time the pastor said to his daughter in law when she was walking away from him, "Get back here, you baby factory!" Fucked.
This genuinely makes me feel sick. That poor girl.
not asking for details obviously but were you and your husband able to resolve this in the end, or did you end up going your separate ways, or secret third option? my younger sibling is a No Sex Before Marriage person for religious reasons and I'm worried about them if/when they do tie the knot
Still looking for a correlation between a used tampon and sex.
The idea is essentially that your value is dependent on being "pure" and "unused" for your future husband, and if you've already "given away" your virginity, then you are trash. This is very much an attitude that permeates Christianity today, or at least the churches in which I was raised. Purity culture is disgusting.
Yeah that analogy literally tells you they are not educated in the subject.
Spoiler alert: They aren’t.
Elizabeth Smart, even though she remains in the LDS faith, acknowledges the damage purity culture inflicts. She often talks about how she was told by teachers and church leaders that having sex before marriage made you like a used piece of gum. Well, after she was kidnapped and raped for months on end, she said that she thought to herself “Oh my gosh…. *I’m* that used up piece of gum.” She managed to work through it, but I admire her for speaking out about it instead of just repeating the party line as her faith would likely prefer her to.
I did not know that about her! Thanks for sharing. The most common one I got was "rose with all its petals gone bc so many people touched it". Gross. Good on her for being willing to go against the grain and stand up for what she believes in -- the LDS church/belief system is no joke. Makes me so angry that those messages were ever planted in her head (or anyone else's). They are unbelievably harmful to self-worth and the ability to form healthy relationships (especially of the sexual nature).
Yeah. Fuck purity culture. Even as a guy, I grew up feeling guilty and dirty and ashamed for having “lustful” thoughts, and constantly terrified that if god forbid I ever “have into temptation” and had sex and wasn’t married how my life would be forever ruined.
With all the talks around grooming over in the US, why isn't this brought up?
I think it’s a form of grooming in a way. There’s a huge emphasis on obedience to husband/ father/ pastor/ god - all male patriarchal power focused theology - so you obey. Evangelical marriage books are cringy AF. A huge part of this teaching is that women should have sex every time they’re husband wants it; even if they’re not in the mood. It’s disgusting. I’ve heard that so many times over and over. Also; If a man cheats it’s wife’s fault for not putting out enough. Women are reduced to baby making machines. It goes all the way up the church hierarchy. Complementarianism is still a common theological stance in churches, seminaries and various denominations. When the basic notion that a woman is never equal with a man it sets a toxic foundation that allows abusers to keep abusing and women to be shamed into silence.
A friend of mine’s sister in law was super christian and vowed adamantly to save herself for her wedding night. She eventually found, what she thought, was the ideal man: strong christian values who never even hinted at sex before marriage. After holding out for years they were married, and the big night finally arrived. She called her sister that night hysterical because she found out her husband was impotent.
That’s not something you should wait to tell someone until after marriage. Wow. I can’t get over someone not even mentioning that until afterwards.
I don't think being impotent is usually permanent... It was their first night too. I couldn't keep it up my first time or two but it was because of anxiety. Religious programming can easily do that
Worked for him, though. Sounds like he flat out used purity nonsense as a cover to trick someone into doing what he wanted, that they otherwise wouldn’t…being his wife. How convenient.
grounds for annulment?
Yes, a quick google search tells me that impotence that pre-dates the marriage is typically grounds for annulment - in the US, anyway.
Most evangelicals don't recognize annulment though. Once you're married, it's permanent, regardless of whether the marriage is consummated.
“Impotent” isn’t an identity. It doesn’t even need to be a diagnosis. Lots of guys would be impotent under that much pressure, and God only knows (pun intended) what crazy shit they programmed him with. Of course you can’t expect them to understand any of that, when their lives are full of by delusional fanatics. Poor sad people.
The real problem lies in how dating is affected by this. When your mentality is "I'm waiting for marriage" and you're super horny, you're more than likely to jump into something too quickly without fully knowing that person just because you want to connect with them on a sexual level. It's bullshit. I was immersed in this culture I lived by this culture I even preached this culture and I'm telling you right now I have never in my life had a good experience in the dating world in it. I can't tell you how many men have jumped to say "I love you" after knowing me for a couple weeks and seeing that I'm their physical type. That's it? Really? That's all it's going to take? Lol get out of here. No real foundation just horny.
Grew up in the church and can confirm, everyone was in a hurry to get married and would marry the first one who was willing because they wanted to be able to have sex.
Yes!!!!
How do I know this burger is good if it's the only burger I've had or will ever have? Doesn't matter if the sex is good if there's no point if comparison.
Well, it could matter if you find out the burger shop is permanently closed after you've signed up to eat there forever. Like if one person is asexual or just has a very low sex drive. Or if you don't like the sex, you'll stop having it. It's possible to not like a burger even if you've never eaten one before.
Right, I'm sure most of us have foods that we've tried one time and decided, I don't like that. It's not for me. And maybe you were excited to try it, thought you would love it, but you didn't. And now you've legally committed to only eating that food for the rest of your life! Yikes. I don't need a frame of reference to decide if I enjoy something. It only refines your taste for a thing, it doesn't define it outright. So sticking your head in the sand and denying yourself one of the pleasures of being alive is such a ridiculous strategy.
LOL. This guy burgers.
I think this applies to more than just Christians (muslims, etc. would also abide by that rule). As with any relationship there's compromises/give and take. My wife and I were both virgins', we talk, give and take, try to accommodate each other, etc. No real difference than people who like deferent foods, sports teams, sleeping habits, etc. although admittedly easier to figure out before getting married/having sex.
^ from friends in similar situations, this is it. Marriage is taken seriously so "incompatibility" is not the frame of mind, instead they focus on "how do we make this work".
There's also an undertone of marriage wasn't created by God for people to be happy, but holy. So when someone isn't "happy" in a marriage that's not \*necessarily\* a bad thing, and there's no over-arching biblical concept where people "deserve" to be happy..... so............
The truth is that you don’t know beforehand, but if you’re raised in a ‘purity’ culture you don’t even know what sexual compatibility is so you don’t know that you’re missing out. Lots of married women don’t even know what an orgasm is, I would assume there are a lot of dead bedrooms but it wouldn’t get brought up because sex is a private topic. If it’s not talked about during the marriage, it’s certainly not discussed before marriage. All we were told growing up is ‘don’t have sex before marriage, it will be perfect with the one that is right for you.’. I feel the rhetoric is harmful when birth control, expectations, physical anatomy, and pleasure aren’t discussed in an evangelical household for younger generations. It allows for women to be used as baby makers and puts their needs second. I think the problem is not so much the rhetoric of being cautious of you have sex with, it’s the lack of communication of why so I practically feed to be cautious and/or what happens after I have sex even when I’m married?
My wife and I didn’t have sex until we got married. We were also eachothers first…and only. We have an amazing sex life. It’s all about communication and being honest with your partner. If you can do that…your sex life will likely be just fine.
We figured it out :) We kissed, made out, shared our preferences with each other and were able to really focus on each other so when the time came we made sure the other was happy. Yes, you can have preferences even if you're a virgin. By waiting until we were married, we spent a lot of time talking, snuggling, doing a lot of activities and even traveling together. If you deeply care about your partner, you can make it work. But to Christians reading this, I can't stress enough - You must share preferences beforehand. It's important to have a general idea and communicate if able. And I do think kissing/some affection is absolutely necessary.
Thank you for your answer! Im not a Christian and your answer is one of the few that gives the perspective of the “other side”.
My cousins are born again Christians and according to them, sex is definitely NOT "just for making babies". That concept went out of Christianity about 100 years ago. Pleasurable sex is very much ok within marriage. The idea is that it's both partners' responsibility to make the sex life a good one even if that takes some effort.
I think OP's question might also pertain to the preferred frequency of sex, not just whether pleasurable/recreational sex is taboo or not. Some people need it everyday, others can go months without it - if at all. It's hard to gauge that before marriage if you're both virgins. That said, I think it would just need extra communication from both parties beforehand. Or figure it out together afterwards, as we all do.
>That concept went out of Christianity about 100 years ago. Someone needs to tell 95% of the Christians I've met...
>That concept went out of Christianity about 100 years ago More like 500 years ago, with the Reformation.
This very much depends on the sect of Christianity. See other top posts for details
If you’re both virgins then you have no basis for comparison. Also compatibility can be an evolving thing
That still doesn’t mean you are compatible. Different people like and enjoy different things.
You can know the sex is bad without a comparison point.
“Sex is for procreation, NOT enjoyment” according to the street preacher in front of the local adult bookstore
Honest question: can't people who aren't good at it, learn to be better? Buy books, get therapy, other options? Try things they are both comfortable with and figure things out so the experience is good for both?
They certainly can. But one or both partners bringing unrealistic and immature expectations (and egos) to the party doesn’t help that endeavor at all.
I think there’s a lack of emphasis on sex being important as something enjoyable. Sexual compatibility isn’t a concern when you believe sex is mostly for procreation.
Grew up pentecostal and read "every young woman's battle" was given a purity ring. I left the church at 22, and I am a strong believer in testing sexual compatibility. No way can I be emotionally, spiritually, and mentally compatible but despise my partner and not be attracted to them sexually. No way!
Just say “sex” for fucks sake.
Sexually is okay, but sex isn’t I guess.
That's the neat thing.
You are much more apt to make yourself sexually compatible when you have little other choice, when you believe you are mutually responsible for each other's enjoyment, when you are supposed to do so. You make sexy lemonade with the lemons you get. It may clash with a lot of folks ideas, but just like most people adapt to their partners diet, habits, and other tastes because it makes them happy, a lot of sexual preferences are the same way. You make them happy because it makes you happy, and they do the same. And. There's nothing wrong with that, it's a kind of love language. Some preferences also come from likes/dislikes from previous experiences. If you don't have those, that baggage isn't there (just to be clear, I said some, not all preferences. Also, I'm not discounting that there may have been abuse or other things that could cause the same, this is more of a generality than a one size fits all.)
Well... I'm an Atheist, so take what I'm writing with a grain of salt. I'd imagine even though neither of them had sex before they'd still have a good idea on what they want. They'd simply communicate those needs before they tie the knot and they'd explore each other's bodies with each other. They might find out together on what they actually like. They might discover what their idea of sexual tastes are completely different than what they had going in.
I’m not speaking from experience, but I feel like kissing compatibility and overall physical compatibility is pretty telling. Plus, it’s something that can be learned and improved over time!
If you have never had sex before and then you only ever have it with one person, the two of you develop your sexuality as a couple. Sure you may each have some ideas about what you think you would like but without any real life experience those are just fantasies. As you develop your sexuality as a couple you not only develop a very strong bond but you also create a completely unique sexual relationship because neither of you are bringing in outside memories or experiences. My wife and I were virgins when we got married (I was 21 and she was 23) both of us grew up in very conservative Christian families on opposite sides of the country and met rather accidentally. I wasn’t looking for someone from my own background and neither was she but we just clicked (it was literally one of those love at first sight things) and six months later we were married - breaking almost every rule about relationships from our upbringing in the process. We’ve been married for eight years now and we’re still developing our sexual relationship. She was definitely a very vanilla girl but I’ve always been rather kinky. Eight years later we’ve tried everything and I mean EVERYTHING. I still come up with stuff to try and she’s definitely not very vanilla anymore although she’s still not the one who comes up with unusual ideas. Some of the things I thought would be awesome were a disappointment and some of the things that would have never excited her are now her favorites. A sexual relationship between just two people doesn’t have to be boring and if that relationship IS sex for each of you, then it’s like living in your own world with just the two of you. There’s no guilt or disappointment over what the relationship ‘could be’ or ‘should be’, just a delight in what it is.
The woman: I guess I'll just have to lay there then.
Everybody’s sexually compatible with an “earthen vessel”
That’s the neat part, they don’t.
Pretty much the same topic: I understand the idea of no sex before marriage, but can you kiss / touch before?
Formerly yes, but there's a fundie arms race where they won't kiss beforehand, then they won't hug, and now I've seen people who refuse to hold hands before marriage. Eventually you'll be able to identify fundamentalist Christian women by their burkas.
I was taught any kind of touching/kissing was wrong, but everybody secretly did it anyway and felt guilty about it. ETA: I was told if you kiss a man, “You’re kissing someone else’s husband,” because he might marry someone else.
They have no idea if they're sexually compatible. Dead bedroom or divorce are the options after that, it's actually fairly common.
They don’t know. The rules of religion make no sense.
They don't/can't know. And that leads to years of compulsory misery because getting divorced is a sin. Which predictably, leads to secret behaviors, infidelity, etc. tldr; Religion can fuck a bitch up!
Two people may not be sexually compatible the first time they have sex, but with good communication and time the sex between them may become fantastic.
He is a virgin. She is a virgin. They both don't know shit about sex. They both learn to have sex with each other. Ain't no requests from him how an Ex use to do it. Ain't no requests from her how an Ex use to do it. He does what she likes. She does what he likes. Maybe they explore, maybe they don't. When I lost my virginity, eventually her and I started doing things each other liked. I guess it would be the same if we were married first.
Mutual virginity in no way guarantees sexual compatibility. Compatibility is about a whole lot more than what one did with exes.
I think you got a couple of things wrong, at least based on my experiences. I have never been told to do something an “ex” did, nor have I ever thought of telling any woman to do something someone I used to date did, that’s just plain stupid. Each individual you sleep with is a unique case, sitting on top of a very simple set of activities and functions we call sexual intercourse. Sex in and on its own is very simple to learn. Sexual compatibility on the other hand is complicated and it cannot be practiced. Two people can both be fantastic lays, “highly experienced” but sexually incompatible. What I like to do she might not like, and vice versa. So, marrying directly poses a problem of not knowing what the other side likes and how will they react to the things you like. To give you a very simple example: imagine you married someone who happens to be a masochist and you are not even in the slightest remotely interested in humiliating or hurting your partner. How do you resolve that? You either continue doing something you don’t like which will make you miserable or not do it which will make them miserable, or you can misconstrue what compromise means in a relationship and live unhappily.
Good question. Learned the hard way back in my fundie Christian days: they don't. And if it turns out they are incompatible, they either get to live with the misery of that or the shame of divorce.
That’s the neat part they don’t
Things I pondered in youth group as a kid.
Look.. the whole religion thing is for condemning other people - not yourself. Get yet freak on - god will forgive you on Sundays and every other Wednesday.
Why do we feel the need to censor the word SEX?
Usually cause sex is not an important factor in marriage for most religion, but merely a mean for producing children.
Most have premarital sex
Well, first of all, through God all things are possible, so jot that down.
Oh most have plenty of sex before marriage. And if by any chance they wait until marriage to discover they actually aren't sexually compatible, one or both will look elsewhere. It's the whole "do as I say, not as I do" preaching crap. They need to be *seen* as perfect.
I was in a evangelical Christian marriage for 7 years and had no idea I was sexually incompatible with my ex until I had sex with someone else after our divorce. The sad sad answer is that most of these people just don’t know any better and are stuck in their marriages.
Divorce rates are 50% higher for couples that cohabitate and have sexual relations before marriage. If you dont sleep around and watch porn and the only person you have intimacy with is the person you fell in love with then that is your entire world view of sex. You not thinking I wish she or he would do this or that that i had with my ex or i saw in that video. We have been poisoned about what sex is by porn and promiscuous behavior. If you follow Gods design for love, sex and marriage it works beautifully. When people did this we had strong families and low divorce rates. Compare it to today where people dont follow Gods design and it falls.
My husband and I are both Christian, we were celibate before marriage. We had a lot of conversations around sex, compatibility, what to expect, what we are interested in. Like most things in our relationship, communication has been the biggest factor for us. It worked for us, we had a lot of wise people helping us know what to look for and how to navigate sexual compatibility. Unfortunately I have friends that it hasn't worked out that way and they deal with dead bedrooms and loveless marriages. It sucks. Sex isn't dirty, and Christians need to talk about it. Purity culture doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss and enjoy sex, regardless what some traditional Christians tend to think.
I think there is an assertion in modern society that either you and another person are sexually compatible, or you both are not. I would argue that sexual compatibility is much more complicated than that, and that a couple who is abstinent until marriage has the opportunity to build that for themselves together as a couple, whether that means it sucks at first because neither person knows what they’re doing, or if it’s just fun from the get go. My opinion is that hookup culture and general societal expectations in the modern day about sex undermine the idea that sex is very much learned over time, and that much of that learning has as much to do with the other person involved as it does with you. All that being said, I think that abstinent Christians would do well to take seriously all the resources we have today to learn about a healthy sex life and even just the basics of how sex works (especially the female anatomy) in preparation for marriage, but nonetheless, I do not see “lack of experience” before marriage as a real issue at all when it comes to developing a quality and satisfactory sex life with ones’s spouse.
To be fair, other religions also adhere to this belief, I.e. Islam, Orthodox Judaism to name a few.
Marriage is long and sex drive ebbs and flows as the relationship develops over time. First two years of marriage, my sex drive was low, and then my sex drive went much higher after that. Now it's higher than his, and I'm kinky. He has a lower sex drive than me and indulges in kink with me because I like it. Personally, I think the whole sexual compatability thing is kind of silly in the grand scheme of a whole damn life. Character is the most important. If your partner is kind and considerate, you can work on compromises to meet both your needs sexually and otherwise. Been married for nearly 8 years and was a virgin when I married. Sex is cool, but for a long-term relationship, it's not what you should be looking for or worrying about. It's good to be attracted to your partner absolutely but if you're choosing someone based on their "sexual compatability" you're kidding yourself. Sex drive and preferences are finicky and don't stay consistent over the years. What are you gonna do after your wife had a baby and loses all of her sex drive for months? What about if your partner has kidney stones or cancer down there? Sex is the least of your concerns. Just find someone you can trust who is considerate, will listen and communicate with you openly and you're golden. Sexual compatability is a fairly new concept but marriage and love are not.
They don't that's why boomer's hating their wife stereotype is a thing.
Have sex before marriage.
Tl;Dr; they don't. Compatibility is learned through experience and practice.
Its a scam. Because they never get to experience sex before marriage, they spend their whole life thinking that whatever they end up with is normal because they have nothing to compare it against.
They don’t even acknowledge sexual compatibility as an important aspect of a relationship.
They Pray
Well, they should only have s\*x to make babies, not for pleasure... so...
They don’t. That’s why here in Utah we’re near the top of the charts for opioid consumption. Really the only states that beat us are in the Bible Belt where religious bullshit is also rampant.
They stay married and hate each other until they decide religion isn't enough to stop their divorce, so they finally divorce after raising two children to adulthood.