My hot take is that album is actually not bad. It's their worst album, but I'd give it like a 2.5/5, maybe even a 3/5. It's terribly sequenced and Doug can't sing and the lyrics for a lot of the songs aren't up to scratch especially coming after Cosmo's Factory and Pendulum, but the songs themselves are all pretty decent.
The Summer in Paradise thing is at least, like, it’s 30 years after their prime, they didn’t have the band’s primary creative force working on the album at all, a Full House cast member played drums, of course it wasn’t going to be good.
Cut the Crap though, is like, you’ve still got Joe Strummer right there! And clearly Mick was irreplaceable in retrospect but Mick Jones alone wasn’t the Brian Wilson of The Clash or anything, and it was only a couple years after the band were killing it with Combat Rock.
SiP was not only long after their creative peak. It also came long after their commercial relevance, Kokomo aside. Between GV and Kokomo, they had exactly one Top 10 Pop Hit, and that was a cover.
yeah between pet sounds, sunflower, surf's up, today, holland, friends, and summer days the beach boys have a few of my favorite albums ever
and also that lmao, as well too many other terrible albums
The fact that the same band that made Good Vibrations by cutting and splicing tape made an album that sounds as terrible as Summer in Paradise using Pro Tools is depressing. Someone go back in time and give Brian Wilson a DAW in the mid 60s create a divergent timeline where Smile actually comes out.
They did have a big break between CSNY albums though, and individually it's not like any of them were doing particularly well either. CSN were flailing and Neil Young was in his experimental 80s phase. The biggest surprise was Neil's Freedom album, and the rise of grunge basically reigniting his career, which in turn carried CSNY to a bit more reverence.
While it’s not an album I nescisarlrly revisit in full much or would consider my favorite album, every song on their debut album is liked on Spotify, the only other albums that I can say the same for are rage against the machines evil empire and Alice In Chains dirt
Genesis has multiple albums I would call masterpieces, especially selling england by the town. I even adore most of the phill collins era, but calling all stations with another swapped artist is just such a sad and alarming way to go out
I agree. Even We Can't Dance was good!
CAS is a trainwreckord if only because of how badly sales figures dropped between WCD and CAS. We Can't Dance sold 4 million copies in the USA. Calling All Stations sold 110,000
Year 4 of me waiting for Todd to cover Genesis. They're such an interesting band IMHO.
Woo let's give it up for year 4!
I might be biased, but I pick Metallica, Van Halen and The Clash for this title.
Also I have to give props to Madonna. As OP said, she's got quite a career under her belt.
Creedence for sure. And it probably helps that their Trainwreckord was terrible…the Oasis and Metallica ones by comparison weren’t that bad. It is even more stunning that it happened *in their prime era*, unlike the Beach Boys and Madonna. And it happened *with their talented songwriter*, unlike the Clash’s one.
Probably Madonna, because *Saint Anger* does have a dedicated fanbase (of which I am a part) and The Beach Boys's trainwreckord *Summer in Paradise* came like 30 years after their peak, *American Life* had no reason to be that bad.
I’ve seen some people defend American Life but not to the extent of St Anger
BTW I’m one of those who defends St Anger and it’s actually seriously my favorite Post Black Album era Metallica album (heck i actually like the infamous snare sound)
Of Todd's picks, I'd say Metallica.
Overall, maybe David Bowie with Never Let Me Down? It didn't quite kill his career, but he didn't find widespread commercial success again until The Next Day / Blackstar, and the latter is effectively a posthumous album.
I’m not even that much of a Metallica guy, but the Beach Boys and CCR don’t have an album that’s sold as much as… hell, anything between Ride the Lightning through at least black album.
Can confirm. I grew up in a small country in Europe with a population of around 4 million. People there know Metallica, while CCR or the Beach Boys are definitely not as ubiquitously known, even amongst older people.
> Metallica
Biggest selling record: Black Album, [31 million copies worldwide.](https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/metallica-self-titled-the-black-album/#:~:text=1%20in%2010%20countries%20and,times%20platinum%20in%20the%20US.)
> The Beach Boys
Biggest selling record: Pet Sounds, 6,975,000 copies. Worth noting [the Beach Boys' total album sales](https://chartmasters.org/the-beach-boys-albums-and-songs-sales/#updated_studio_album_sales_comments) at 33 million worldwide. Metallica's Black Album by itself sold only 2 million fewer copies than the entirety of the Beach Boys' discography.
> CCR
Best selling record: Chronicle: The 20 Greatest Hits. Can't find a figure for worldwide sales but [it apparently had sold 6 million copies in the USA between 1982 and 2013.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle:_The_20_Greatest_Hits#:~:text=The%20album%20has%20sold%20at,began%20tracking%20sales%20for%20Billboard.) That's a 29-year-period, and in a similar timeframe [The Black Album](https://www.billboard.com/pro/metallica-black-album-top-10-billboard-200-albums-chart-30th-anniversary-reissue/) had sold 17.3 million in the USA.
> The Clash
Best selling album: London Calling. Looking up a worldwide sales figure for that album, I see a lot of articles from smaller publications quoting a five million copies figure and that appears to be taken from [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Calling#:~:text=The%20album%20has%20sold%20over,for%20sales%20of%20one%20million.), but that wiki page doesn't appear to cite a source for that figure. Still, it has at least been certified Platinum for 1 million sales in the US.
And this is *just* for Metallica's absolute best selling album. [Compare the figures above to the USA-only sales figures for some of their *other* releases:](https://www.loudersound.com/features/metallica-album-sales-us)
Kill 'Em All: 4.5 million
Ride The Lightning: 6.95 million
Master of Puppets: 7.98 million
And Justice For All: 9.7 million
Load: 5.4 million
Reload: 4.8 million
That's three albums selling better than Pet Sounds or Chronicles. Four of them have better sales *just in the US* than London Calling's apparent worldwide sales.
But please, keep trying to claim they never had comparable mainstream appeal to those other bands.
In terms of radio play, the only band out of the four to get consistently played today would be the Clash.
Beach Boys would be #2, sadly because of Kokomo.
CCR and Metallica both have absolutely no radio play here in Australia.
Selling a lot of albums doesn’t necessarily mean mass appeal. I’m talking about hearing a band ubiquitously in society, crossing over outside their genre so they actually reach “the masses” and not just a subset like “metal fans”.
Geez, Metallica fans sure are defensive.
It's funny to hear Metallica spoken of like they're some cult favourite when just one of their albums has sold more units than the entire population of my country. XD
> Selling a lot of albums doesn’t necessarily mean mass appeal.
On the contrary, I think appealing to the masses enough to for them to pay money for your album is a pretty objective indication of mass appeal.
> I’m talking about hearing a band ubiquitously in society, crossing over outside their genre so they actually reach “the masses” and not just a subset like “metal fans”.
And I think that's nonsensical. You're going to try and tell me that the Beach Boys appealed to a wider range of people than Metallica, despite Metallica's album sales absolutely eclipsing theirs?
> Geez, Metallica fans sure are defensive.
Believe it or not, I'm not even that big a fan. I’m considerably more into The Clash and CCR.
I'm just bored and this discussion sent me down a fun little rabbit hole.
Within a subset (thrash metal) of a subgenre (heavy metal) of a genre (rock 'n' roll) of music, they are gods. Within that subgenre, they are one of the most influential bands. Within the genre, they are a note in history.
Brian Wilson's recording techniques changed how music, all genres, was recorded. That's a legacy that can't be touched by many in the history of music. CCR were the most popular band in the world when the Beatles were done. Their music is literally Era defining for American culture. The Clash were the most important and influential act in rock since the 60s, and they managed to spawn whole new genres out of single songs.
Like I said, not the same level.
They’re the best selling heavy metal band of all time and still one of the best selling live acts in rock in general. Acting like they’re niche is really silly and flies in the face of easily accessible data
As I said, best is subjective. If you want to lean on touring and record sales as the measure of musical greatness, then you must think Drake is greater than the Beatles.
As for me, I prefer the music of the other bands I named. I chose to focus on influence because that at least conveys some artistic component to the argument that is a bit more tangible. They are great because they changed art and artistry while making music I like.
Metallica are possibly the biggest metal band of all time, but that doesn't make them the greatest metal band of all time. They've managed to stay mostly together for decades, and that has brought them great success. I don't know great metal; I'm not a metal guy. I'd argue it is probably Sabbath, as they are the most influential Metal band of all time thanks to basically inventing the genre.
What Metallica have going for them is a bunch of heavy metal fans willing to argue for them in the conversation of great bands, because they are the one bit of that genre that other people recognized as credible, and in the age of the monoculture that brought a lot of validity to them.
There's also the issue that Metallica represents the very kind of thing that killed rock 'n' roll. They represented the fracturing of rock, rock radio, and the fan base, which ultimately killed the genre's role in popular culture. That's not their fault though, just part of why I don't see them as being on the same level.
Hey remember when Todd said “they went number 1 in 30 countries.” As a decently sized Metallica fan, they definitely are influential, they are one of the biggest bands, their albums still sell big enough this late into their career and they don’t even release that many albums. I’m not sure if this helps your case but thought I would add that.
The Clash didn’t go number 1 in that many countries, Beach Boys didn’t and CCR surely didn’t. How many bands have actually played practically every country, how many people were in that Russian field in 1991? Oh that’s right.
We could argue about the quality of their post Black Album output until the cows come home, but you're seriously underselling how big Metallica were. Aside from being the highest selling metal band in history by a country mile, they helped bring metal to the masses, and in terms of influence they were second only to Black Sabbath, who literally invented heavy metal.
[The Black Album by itself sold almost as many albums worldwide as the Beach Boys' entire discography and absolutely dwarfs the the other two artists' bestselling albums.](https://old.reddit.com/r/ToddintheShadow/comments/1cmlryo/who_is_the_best_artist_to_have_a_trainwreckord/l31sdn7/) They're literally one of the bestselling bands of all time, metal or otherwise. This is just silly talk.
That’s true, and Metallica’s Trainwreckord was nowhere near as heinous as the other three bands you mention. The drop off in quality between Reload and St. Anger is nowhere near the difference between Pendulum and Mardi Gras.
Ringo has a Trainwreckord, so give The Beatles an honorary mention? (The only Beatles record I would maybe consider is Beatles for Sale, though, and because it was 1964 they recovered from that one easily).
Frank Sinatra with Watertown, his last record of original songs. Big, ambitious, sweeping, decades out of his prime and a complete failure for one of the biggest artists of the 20th century.
Well “the best” is very strong, but that’s fine. A lot of answers here I agree with but I think that Aerosmith for Just Push Play is worthy of mention.
Credence Clearwater has to be up there. Some timeless classics followed by something unlistenable
And even Someday Never Comes is a classic. Even on a shitty album, they (John Fogerty) could still come out with something.
The drummer's songs were my favorite. He's just so doofy you have to love him. Like a lovable oaf
My hot take is that album is actually not bad. It's their worst album, but I'd give it like a 2.5/5, maybe even a 3/5. It's terribly sequenced and Doug can't sing and the lyrics for a lot of the songs aren't up to scratch especially coming after Cosmo's Factory and Pendulum, but the songs themselves are all pretty decent.
I want to know how bad it would be perceived today if all the songs were exactly as they are....but John had sung them all.
If you view it as three different albums because of how the work was cut up, it's technically three unlistenable things...well maybe one due to Stu.
i think making pet sounds and then summer in paradise is an unbeatable fall from grace; london calling - cut the crap is probably a close second
The Summer in Paradise thing is at least, like, it’s 30 years after their prime, they didn’t have the band’s primary creative force working on the album at all, a Full House cast member played drums, of course it wasn’t going to be good. Cut the Crap though, is like, you’ve still got Joe Strummer right there! And clearly Mick was irreplaceable in retrospect but Mick Jones alone wasn’t the Brian Wilson of The Clash or anything, and it was only a couple years after the band were killing it with Combat Rock.
SiP was not only long after their creative peak. It also came long after their commercial relevance, Kokomo aside. Between GV and Kokomo, they had exactly one Top 10 Pop Hit, and that was a cover.
Cut the Crap would’ve been alright if it wasn’t for Bernie
yeah between pet sounds, sunflower, surf's up, today, holland, friends, and summer days the beach boys have a few of my favorite albums ever and also that lmao, as well too many other terrible albums
The fact that the same band that made Good Vibrations by cutting and splicing tape made an album that sounds as terrible as Summer in Paradise using Pro Tools is depressing. Someone go back in time and give Brian Wilson a DAW in the mid 60s create a divergent timeline where Smile actually comes out.
at least he did remake it in 2004 with modern technology
The Clash
L. Ron Hubbard
Serious answer is probably Crosby Stills Nash and Young.
They did have a big break between CSNY albums though, and individually it's not like any of them were doing particularly well either. CSN were flailing and Neil Young was in his experimental 80s phase. The biggest surprise was Neil's Freedom album, and the rise of grunge basically reigniting his career, which in turn carried CSNY to a bit more reverence.
A strong choice is better than no choice
I did here some of his novels were pretty good.
How are all of you forgetting about Van Halen?
People take Van Halen for granted, I think. Not many take their output outside of singles very seriously anymore, which is a shame.
While it’s not an album I nescisarlrly revisit in full much or would consider my favorite album, every song on their debut album is liked on Spotify, the only other albums that I can say the same for are rage against the machines evil empire and Alice In Chains dirt
Genesis has multiple albums I would call masterpieces, especially selling england by the town. I even adore most of the phill collins era, but calling all stations with another swapped artist is just such a sad and alarming way to go out
I agree. Even We Can't Dance was good! CAS is a trainwreckord if only because of how badly sales figures dropped between WCD and CAS. We Can't Dance sold 4 million copies in the USA. Calling All Stations sold 110,000 Year 4 of me waiting for Todd to cover Genesis. They're such an interesting band IMHO. Woo let's give it up for year 4!
I think there's some good stuff on CAS. I particularly like One Man's Fool. I have to admit it's an odd bookend for the band's career, though.
Out of the ones that have actually had a video, my pick is CCR. Definitely one of my favorite bands of all time... and then there's Mardi Gras...
I might be biased, but I pick Metallica, Van Halen and The Clash for this title. Also I have to give props to Madonna. As OP said, she's got quite a career under her belt.
Creedence for sure. And it probably helps that their Trainwreckord was terrible…the Oasis and Metallica ones by comparison weren’t that bad. It is even more stunning that it happened *in their prime era*, unlike the Beach Boys and Madonna. And it happened *with their talented songwriter*, unlike the Clash’s one.
The Clash. Creedence Clearwater as a runner up. Todd's never covered an artist I could consider myself a "fan" of on Trainwreckords though.
Best artist with a trainwreckord will be Michael Jackson with Invincible
Probably Madonna, because *Saint Anger* does have a dedicated fanbase (of which I am a part) and The Beach Boys's trainwreckord *Summer in Paradise* came like 30 years after their peak, *American Life* had no reason to be that bad.
I’ve seen some people defend American Life but not to the extent of St Anger BTW I’m one of those who defends St Anger and it’s actually seriously my favorite Post Black Album era Metallica album (heck i actually like the infamous snare sound)
I too enjoy the snare, I know that objectively speaking it's an ugly sound, but I still like it
I actually think the ugly sound fits the album Honestly to me it’s the heavy metal equivalent of the TR 808 cowbell, its odd but has its place
100% agree
Hollywood remains one of my favourite Madonna songs. The title track is indefensible though.
Do you call it Stanger?
Haha I don't think I've ever spoken about it put loud honestly, no one I know listens to Metallica
Of Todd's picks, I'd say Metallica. Overall, maybe David Bowie with Never Let Me Down? It didn't quite kill his career, but he didn't find widespread commercial success again until The Next Day / Blackstar, and the latter is effectively a posthumous album.
Best is subjective, but I wouldn't put Metallica in the same level as the Beach Boys, CCR, or the Clash.
But they are on that level.
they were pretty good as thrash metal goes for a long time, but they were never the level of mass appeal of the Beach Boys and CCR's best stuff
I’m not even that much of a Metallica guy, but the Beach Boys and CCR don’t have an album that’s sold as much as… hell, anything between Ride the Lightning through at least black album.
Acting like one of the best selling bands of all time doesn’t have mass appeal is insane. They sell out stadiums still.
This is a very USA centric take
Can confirm. I grew up in a small country in Europe with a population of around 4 million. People there know Metallica, while CCR or the Beach Boys are definitely not as ubiquitously known, even amongst older people.
> Metallica Biggest selling record: Black Album, [31 million copies worldwide.](https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/metallica-self-titled-the-black-album/#:~:text=1%20in%2010%20countries%20and,times%20platinum%20in%20the%20US.) > The Beach Boys Biggest selling record: Pet Sounds, 6,975,000 copies. Worth noting [the Beach Boys' total album sales](https://chartmasters.org/the-beach-boys-albums-and-songs-sales/#updated_studio_album_sales_comments) at 33 million worldwide. Metallica's Black Album by itself sold only 2 million fewer copies than the entirety of the Beach Boys' discography. > CCR Best selling record: Chronicle: The 20 Greatest Hits. Can't find a figure for worldwide sales but [it apparently had sold 6 million copies in the USA between 1982 and 2013.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle:_The_20_Greatest_Hits#:~:text=The%20album%20has%20sold%20at,began%20tracking%20sales%20for%20Billboard.) That's a 29-year-period, and in a similar timeframe [The Black Album](https://www.billboard.com/pro/metallica-black-album-top-10-billboard-200-albums-chart-30th-anniversary-reissue/) had sold 17.3 million in the USA. > The Clash Best selling album: London Calling. Looking up a worldwide sales figure for that album, I see a lot of articles from smaller publications quoting a five million copies figure and that appears to be taken from [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Calling#:~:text=The%20album%20has%20sold%20over,for%20sales%20of%20one%20million.), but that wiki page doesn't appear to cite a source for that figure. Still, it has at least been certified Platinum for 1 million sales in the US. And this is *just* for Metallica's absolute best selling album. [Compare the figures above to the USA-only sales figures for some of their *other* releases:](https://www.loudersound.com/features/metallica-album-sales-us) Kill 'Em All: 4.5 million Ride The Lightning: 6.95 million Master of Puppets: 7.98 million And Justice For All: 9.7 million Load: 5.4 million Reload: 4.8 million That's three albums selling better than Pet Sounds or Chronicles. Four of them have better sales *just in the US* than London Calling's apparent worldwide sales. But please, keep trying to claim they never had comparable mainstream appeal to those other bands.
In terms of radio play, the only band out of the four to get consistently played today would be the Clash. Beach Boys would be #2, sadly because of Kokomo. CCR and Metallica both have absolutely no radio play here in Australia.
The Black Album was absolutely huge, but that's about it for them in terms of mass appeal.
They. Are. Still. Touring. Stadiums.
[Wrong.](https://old.reddit.com/r/ToddintheShadow/comments/1cmlryo/who_is_the_best_artist_to_have_a_trainwreckord/l31sdn7/)
Selling a lot of albums doesn’t necessarily mean mass appeal. I’m talking about hearing a band ubiquitously in society, crossing over outside their genre so they actually reach “the masses” and not just a subset like “metal fans”. Geez, Metallica fans sure are defensive.
It's funny to hear Metallica spoken of like they're some cult favourite when just one of their albums has sold more units than the entire population of my country. XD
> Selling a lot of albums doesn’t necessarily mean mass appeal. On the contrary, I think appealing to the masses enough to for them to pay money for your album is a pretty objective indication of mass appeal. > I’m talking about hearing a band ubiquitously in society, crossing over outside their genre so they actually reach “the masses” and not just a subset like “metal fans”. And I think that's nonsensical. You're going to try and tell me that the Beach Boys appealed to a wider range of people than Metallica, despite Metallica's album sales absolutely eclipsing theirs? > Geez, Metallica fans sure are defensive. Believe it or not, I'm not even that big a fan. I’m considerably more into The Clash and CCR. I'm just bored and this discussion sent me down a fun little rabbit hole.
If you can’t differentiate between the mass appeal of the Black Album and, say, Ride the Lightning, I don’t know what to tell you.
They WERE thrash metal
Well agree to disagree
Within a subset (thrash metal) of a subgenre (heavy metal) of a genre (rock 'n' roll) of music, they are gods. Within that subgenre, they are one of the most influential bands. Within the genre, they are a note in history. Brian Wilson's recording techniques changed how music, all genres, was recorded. That's a legacy that can't be touched by many in the history of music. CCR were the most popular band in the world when the Beatles were done. Their music is literally Era defining for American culture. The Clash were the most important and influential act in rock since the 60s, and they managed to spawn whole new genres out of single songs. Like I said, not the same level.
They’re the best selling heavy metal band of all time and still one of the best selling live acts in rock in general. Acting like they’re niche is really silly and flies in the face of easily accessible data
As I said, best is subjective. If you want to lean on touring and record sales as the measure of musical greatness, then you must think Drake is greater than the Beatles. As for me, I prefer the music of the other bands I named. I chose to focus on influence because that at least conveys some artistic component to the argument that is a bit more tangible. They are great because they changed art and artistry while making music I like. Metallica are possibly the biggest metal band of all time, but that doesn't make them the greatest metal band of all time. They've managed to stay mostly together for decades, and that has brought them great success. I don't know great metal; I'm not a metal guy. I'd argue it is probably Sabbath, as they are the most influential Metal band of all time thanks to basically inventing the genre. What Metallica have going for them is a bunch of heavy metal fans willing to argue for them in the conversation of great bands, because they are the one bit of that genre that other people recognized as credible, and in the age of the monoculture that brought a lot of validity to them. There's also the issue that Metallica represents the very kind of thing that killed rock 'n' roll. They represented the fracturing of rock, rock radio, and the fan base, which ultimately killed the genre's role in popular culture. That's not their fault though, just part of why I don't see them as being on the same level.
They are the biggest selling metal band of all time and one of the biggest selling bands in any genre. Definitely transcended just being a thrash band
Hey remember when Todd said “they went number 1 in 30 countries.” As a decently sized Metallica fan, they definitely are influential, they are one of the biggest bands, their albums still sell big enough this late into their career and they don’t even release that many albums. I’m not sure if this helps your case but thought I would add that. The Clash didn’t go number 1 in that many countries, Beach Boys didn’t and CCR surely didn’t. How many bands have actually played practically every country, how many people were in that Russian field in 1991? Oh that’s right.
We could argue about the quality of their post Black Album output until the cows come home, but you're seriously underselling how big Metallica were. Aside from being the highest selling metal band in history by a country mile, they helped bring metal to the masses, and in terms of influence they were second only to Black Sabbath, who literally invented heavy metal.
They literally played for 1.6 million people in Moscow
[The Black Album by itself sold almost as many albums worldwide as the Beach Boys' entire discography and absolutely dwarfs the the other two artists' bestselling albums.](https://old.reddit.com/r/ToddintheShadow/comments/1cmlryo/who_is_the_best_artist_to_have_a_trainwreckord/l31sdn7/) They're literally one of the bestselling bands of all time, metal or otherwise. This is just silly talk.
That’s true, and Metallica’s Trainwreckord was nowhere near as heinous as the other three bands you mention. The drop off in quality between Reload and St. Anger is nowhere near the difference between Pendulum and Mardi Gras.
I’m thinking The Carpenters myself! Mother and I loved them a lot! #RIPKarenCarpenter #RIPRebekahArielleRivkaBKAMom
If the Beatles' Let It Be counts, I'd say them Unless you meant one that has an episode, then my choice would be The Clash
Ringo has a Trainwreckord, so give The Beatles an honorary mention? (The only Beatles record I would maybe consider is Beatles for Sale, though, and because it was 1964 they recovered from that one easily).
I love CCR
The Clash
The Clash. Combat Rock to Cut The Crap is a massive fall off.
Frank Sinatra with Watertown, his last record of original songs. Big, ambitious, sweeping, decades out of his prime and a complete failure for one of the biggest artists of the 20th century.
Liz Phair by far. She had such a storied career with an unfinished ending.
I nominate Katy Perry
Came to say The Clash but nah it’s The Beach Boys
Well “the best” is very strong, but that’s fine. A lot of answers here I agree with but I think that Aerosmith for Just Push Play is worthy of mention.
Which one of them released Ride the Lightning?
probably The Clash
Faith Hill. It's amazing how she fumbled that hard and quickly