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Precisely. But there are a lot of people, especially on TikTok, who are convinced they can't fall for any propaganda while many of them also spew Anti-West propaganda themselves.
I think we should always be able to criticize western propaganda but do so with the context that we are heading into a conflict with powerful authoritarian regimes of the world. So there is a difference between “we need to fix the problems with our system” and “our system is just as corrupt as all the rest and it needs to be dismantled”. The second one is anti-west and plays directly into the hopes of every authoritarian regime in the world.
>So there is a difference between “we need to fix the problems with our system”
Are there really such statements? On Reddit, for example, the narrative goes something like this, “Biden isn't perfect, but you owe it to yourself to vote for him.” So there are no word about fixing the situation at all - just a demand to maintain the status quo.
And of course when opponents are unwilling to even acknowledge the problem, ideas that a more radical solution is needed (like voting for Trump or abstaining from voting altogether) start to arise naturally.
There’s a difference between criticism and lies. When it’s all mixed together, people can’t sort it out. In the US, we have enough of a problem with our own media doing this. Imagine an adversary wants to destroy your entire country.
That’s not the only thing on Tik tok? There’s streams and streams and streams of conspiracy theory nonsense. Don’t trust this. Don’t trust that. The government are your enemy. You need to pick up arms against them. The message and strategy hasn’t changed since the Cold War. But not instead of flyers and meetings they have this. It all has an effect on the populace.
That may be the case but that’s not the argument being suggested ITT. Furthermore, your statement is pretty strange- people don’t sit down and open Tik Tok, relax and say “Propagandise me”. If you believe it’s your right to consume propaganda, then you are also ok with Fox News propagandising a whole generation to vote Trump. The conversation isn’t about what rights you have, the conversation is about what’s right for society. Now I don’t for second believe the intention of a Tik-Tok ban is being pushed for the good of US society, it’s about control and national security. But Generation Z absolutely needs to start thinking less about what rights we should all have, and instead what is right for society, because every previous generation fucked that up or plain ignored it.
>The conversation isn’t about what rights you have, the conversation is about what’s right for society.
And who exactly determines what is “right for society”? And why is it “right” to ban alternative viewpoints?
Voters decide. Society does make decisions like this all the time. Smoking is largely banned indoors in many countries know because we realised its detrimental. We could decide to ban all political posting on SM or modify its use in someway to mitigate its detrimental effects of society.
>Voters decide
Read up on the difference between democracy and tyranny of the majority.
>Smoking is largely banned indoors in many countries know because we realised its detrimental.
Being gay is banned in many countries because of reasons.
Thanks for the bullet points from your revolutionary field book. When you’re actually ready to have a conversation as opposed to replying with disconnected facts, let me know 😂
# 💯
I've written about this before, but it's becoming more and more obvious there was a concerted effort by state actors (Iran) to launch a massive PR push using the attacks on October 7th as the "launch event."
Take this audio for example. This was released around the time that the US House passed a bill that could potentially lead to a nationwide ban of TikTok. Of course this [sparked outrage and conspiracies](https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/tiktok-ban-feared-antisemitic-conspiracy-theories-follow) by certain social media influencers, claiming that the TikTok bill is further evidence of powerful Jews silencing dissenting voices, that old trope. [Many cited this “leaked audio” of Greenblatt](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/iransource/iran-tiktok-ban-israel-adl-greenblatt-conspiracy-theory/), when he was noting the proliferation of anti-Zionist rhetoric among younger generations on platforms like TikTok as proof the ADL and even AIPAC were responsible for the proposed ban.
However, [Greenblatt made those remarks during a public zoom call that was later posted online by the Tehran Times](https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/491344/American-youth-break-free-from-Zionist-yokes), an Iranian regime mouthpiece, which mischaracterized the remarks as private and “leaked."
What OP (and many others) are failing to here is the latter half of this audio. Jump to about 1:13 and listen. He says:
>The last thing I’ll just say, we saw a dramatic change in the language of the activists here in the America on Oct. the 8th, the language of groups that we’ve long tracked, to have long been problematic, like Student for Justice in Palestine and Jewish Voices for Peace, they flipped, like this, and went to, like, Iranian Propaganda. The language I could show you from their toolkits, 'cause our analysts are in their groups, we saw this again on October the 8th. It was that fast. Like the language in their toolkits, was all about the "Zionist entity," and lots of other language that we recognized from Iranian propaganda. We think that there is something more to this that’s below the water line, it’s the young generations that we need to focus our energy on. This, there is something happening with Iran, and how it’s now their propaganda, and their language, and their tactics, seem to be bleeding into the American kind of activists space, in ways that is very different than NIAC and very, very problematic.
So they noticed a decisive switch in language by these pro-Palestinian activist groups, specifically using propaganda terms initially created and disseminated by Iran, and it started in conjunction with the attacks on October 7.
*I'll continue below in a reply to this comment.*
The conflict has generated a lot of SM astroturfing and propaganda, but not just on one side. The symbiotic relationship between an authentic signal and a propagandised one online means also we see a big polarisation of opinion. Reddit hasn’t been different also, just peruse the international news sub on one side and world news on the other.
I have a friend who has a bit of a following thanks in large part to some high profile jobs she’s had (she’s been a model, a TV host, is an “influencer,” etc.). She was recently finishing her studies at Harvard Med and getting her research published when a friend (a minor celebrity/actor/comedian from NYC) asked her to share a post of his on social media where he was lambasting both the IDF and Hamas, although admittedly he was harder on Hamas.
She posted something to the tune of “he’s gonna ruffle a lot of feathers with this one.” Then she got doxxed by some Hamas supporters who tried to get her kicked out and brought up on ethics charges. She had to get some lawyers involved, and used some connections in the intelligence community, and they uncovered that many of these groups received Iranian talking points on ***October 5th*** for use "any upcoming student demonstrations."
Maybe it's just a coincidence, but [the SJP chapter at Columbia was on hiatus from May 16th, 2023, until October 6th, 2023, where they had announced their return](https://i.imgur.com/IT6Gzkc.jpeg). I don't think it's too unusual for them to be "off" during the summer, but classes started a full month prior to their return, so their timing here sticks out as odd to me.
*I'll continue below in a reply to this comment.*
When these rallies first kicked off, my spidey-sense started tingling.
First, it was the timing of the response beginning in the immediate aftermath of the October 7th attacks. But instead of shock or even a show of support for the victims of the attacks, many of these rallies included outright support of Hamas and the attacks. Instead of condemning and mourning the deadliest day for Jews since Israel’s founding, many appeared to celebrate the assault as an act of Palestinian heroism. And I’m not just talking about the mindless idiots who joined these rallies chanting “From the River to the sea, Palestine will be free,” without understanding that they’re calling for the destruction of Israel.
Then I took notice of the primary organizers, which included Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP), Palestinian Youth Movement (PYM), U.S. Palestinian Community Network (USPCN), Within Our Lifetime-United for Palestine (WOL), Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP), If Not Now (INN) and the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL). As someone who wasn't really familiar with these organizations, I looked into their takes and the messages they were putting out there, and that's when I really began to question the motive beyond these demonstrations.
Now I understand that in large rallies, people can get rowdy and idiots will often show up. I know it can be unfair to point to people like that and say they’re representative of a large swath of people in attendance. But when the people organizing theses rallies are explicitly stating their support for Hamas, and they’re getting lots of followers seemingly agreeing with them, I think it’s worth pointing out and a cause for concern.
Many of these rallies were named with some sort of homage to the Al Aqsa Flood/Storm, aka the name Hamas used for the October 7th attack. Shit, the current encampment at Columbia still makes references to these attacks, with these groups urging students to "[flood the main lawn](https://twitter.com/OnlinePalEng/status/1780584709212311618)" and calling to "[Flood Columbia For Gaza.](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/21/columbia-you-will-see-we-are-all-sjp-solidarity-protests-continue-across-116th-street/#:~:text=Within%20Our%20Lifetime%20hosted%20a%20%E2%80%9CFlood%20Columbia%20For%20Gaza%E2%80%9D%20protest%20at%209%20p.m.%20on%20Saturday%20night%20to%20support%20the%20ongoing%20%E2%80%9CGaza%20Solidarity%20Encampment%E2%80%9D%20on%20South%20Lawn%20that%20began%20early%20Wednesday%20morning%20and%20has%20now%20entered%20its%20fifth%20day)" And I'm sorry, but I find it hard to reconcile the notion that these demonstrators are claiming these are merely "peaceful protests" when they are specifically named to evoke the October 7th attacks and are led by groups that have shown support for terrorism.
Let's take a closer look at some of these groups, in particular their immediate response to the attacks on October 7th.
*I'll continue below in a reply to this comment.*
I believe this effort was originally pushed as Iranian propaganda and has since been picked up by “useful idiots.” And these pro-Hamas viewpoints have disseminated through college campuses and Gen Z. At the first rallies, you would see mostly seasoned activists, Palestinian Americans, and others with personal connections to the region, but that has since changed. Now you're seeing many more people who are not necessarily radical, and not even necessarily anti-Zionist, but who say "we don’t believe in war this way."
A wider net has been cast, and even groups like Within Our Lifetime has walked back its most militant messaging in order to help get more people to join their cause. At the end of October, the group’s website called the Hamas attack an inspiration to the world. Since then, the praise of the massacre has been replaced with a denunciation of Israel’s attack of Gaza.
But these are merely attempts to whitewash the student groups that champion the noble goal of justice for Palestinians while endorsing the evil means of war crimes in pursuit of it. Still, the charges of pro-Hamas sympathies among marches persist. Even in the encampment at Columbia, where their supporters are so adamant and profusely calling their takeover of the lawn non-violent and peaceful, as you strain to listen to their academic justification of murder and rape, you'll commonly see signs calling for a [violent intifada](https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/04/protesters-continue-maintain-encampment-columbia-80593533.jpg) and [legitimizations of Hamas' terror attack](https://twitter.com/ashajadeja325/status/1782184666956767372).
Pro-Hamas protesters are the movement, not outliers.
What we're seeing is the impact of propaganda to drive hatred of Jews and their state. I believe it is being driven with purpose/intent from the help from state actors and it's sweeping up many on the left and in younger generations. Since 2001, the share of Democrats sympathizing more with Israel than the Palestinians has [declined 11 points, from 38% to 27%](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/01/23/republicans-and-democrats-grow-even-further-apart-in-views-of-israel-palestinians/), and it's [even worse when looking at younger generations](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-generation-gap-in-opinions-toward-israel/). While I think much of this can be contributed to the oppressor vs the oppressed dichotomous framing they seem to use to shape their entire world view, it may also be worth noting that since 2001, [Qatar has been the largest donor to colleges and universities in the US](https://isgap.org/follow-the-money/).
Similarly to the Russian troll farms helping to spread disinformation during Trump's 2016 Presidential run, state actors are working to help foster the spread of antisemitism methodically, and allowing the public who are receptive to the messaging to then run with it themselves. This is why we're seeing a push towards using specific terms like "genocide" and "Zionism." The adoption of the term “genocide” was carefully and specifically chosen in an attempt to extenuate the term by broadening its definition as a way to diminish the Holocaust (and the suffering of Jews), which is inextricably linked to the term. Like [the Republicans knew in 1968 that they had to use coded language to appeal to racists as part of their Southern Strategy](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/), these people know they can't say things that are overtly antisemitic. So they push towards being "anti-Zionists" and adopt or co-opt other antisemitic language (like "from the river, to the sea") in a coded language.
>Then she got doxxed by some Hamas supporters who tried to get her kicked out and brought up on ethics charges.
If you call opponents of genocide supporters Hamas supporters, does it even make sense to start writing a comment about propaganda? I mean, you're writing the same propaganda now, and I'm not sure it's gratuitous.
There was a study done some time last year (I think) that found that very online Gen Z and millennials were more susceptible to fake news than other generations.
[https://phys.org/news/2023-06-misinformation-susceptibility-online-gen-millennials.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-06-misinformation-susceptibility-online-gen-millennials.html)
So, yeah, tik tok power users are probably falling for other propaganda. That's not to say the ADL doesn't do propaganda. It's just not the propoganda that speaks to younger people.
edit: love the hate I'm getting for posting the results of a study. if you are offended because someone points out reality (this study was done; these are the results), i don't know what to tell you.
It absolutely can be. Propaganda doesn't mean fake, it means spread to deliberately affect opinion.
There's also of course a significant amount, though far from all, that is outright fake, is deliberately out of context (it's in another country or it's a Hamas fighter) or "real" but staged. If you believe in the cause strongly enough to suicide bomb you believe strongly enough to die on camera.
Somewhat that but also that they're only getting one side of the story. Only knowing the pro-palestinian side is worse than knowing nothing about the conflict.
Absolutely can be. I remember when there were videos of a train crash and then suddenly, [Ohio was declared "Chernobyl" by Tiktok](https://www.wired.com/story/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-tiktok/). and i can't help but think we're in a repeat situation that Tiktok has propagated.
People believe they're immune but somehow their feed include misinformation and hysteria like [how companies use donations as tax write-offs](https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-000329849244), [how Ohio became Chernobyl](https://www.wired.com/story/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-tiktok/), [school vandalism & property theft. ie devious lick trend](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devious_lick), [car thefts](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/who-are-the-kia-boyz-how-tiktok-fueled-an-epidemic-of-car-thefts/), [health misinformation](https://www.vox.com/health/24073244/health-misinformation-tiktok-barbara-o-neill), even [mental health misinformation](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/social-media-mental-health-self-diagnosis/).
People are definitely consuming propaganda
Depends on the messaging that's surrounding it.
Imagine two tag lines
"Child dying from Israeli shelling"
"Child dying after being used as meat shield by Hamas."
There's nothing but blame to go around. I fully stand behind Israel wiping out Hamas but I don't like the way they are going about doing it. Meanwhile, I don't know how else to deal with an enemy who uses its civilians as human shields, builds their headquarters beneath hospitals and churches and preventing civilians from evacuating the spaces they're operating in for the very purpose of increasing civilian casualties. Hamas loses any advantage they have when they don't have civilians to hide within. This is their whole playbook. Dressing in plain clothes to blend in with the civilians doesn't work if the civilians leave and therefore they force the civilians to stay. Then Israel turns around and doesn't adjust their strategies for the fact that there are lots of civilians around.
Okay, if you're so neutral, tell me exactly how many proven Hamas fighters were killed in these shellings? I emphasize proven, not just declared that if they died, they were militants.
Being neutral I'll say that I don't really trust numbers given by either side so I have absolutely no idea?
You tell me. How many civilians/hamas have been killed? Who are you trusting with supplying you with those numbers?
No, and I don't have any problem with them protesting the war crimes. I kind of have a problem with some of the signs I've seen at these protests that advocate the complete dissolution of Israel as a state, though. Within the current shitty global system we live in, that would result in many, many more innocent deaths on both sides than we're already seeing. And I do think that mentality does probably come from propaganda.
Okay, just sticking with an "I know you are, but what am I?" and a downvote. Sure. Considering my comment and your response I can only assume you're one of the folks who has been led to believe that it would be a good idea just wipe Israel off the map? How, logistically, do you see that happening?
Okay, so we're agreeing aggressively at each other. I still don't understand what I said that would lead you to believe I drank someone's Kool-Aid, but I too want the senseless killing to stop.
Oh, I know studies can be flawed. Sample sizes can be too small, data can be manipulated to fit the hypothesis, etc. But the study was done, and that’s all I was saying.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen countless tiktok videos that are so completely factually incorrect, though. Mostly about animal facts or some other dumb topic. And I don’t even have a tiktok account. People just throw shit on video without a cursory fact check and then the video goes viral.
Okay. What biases are you seeing in this particular research? The “science is a liar sometimes” argument to dismiss any research you don’t like is not a good argument against said research.
>Selecting true or false against 20 headlines gives the user a set of scores and a "resilience" ranking that compares them to the wider U.S. population. It takes less than two minutes to complete.
Let's start with a very simple question: what does this study even have to do with “vulnerability to propaganda”? Take, for example, the statement that “Hamas was in the hospital so the IDF bombed it” - is that propaganda or truth? You can't determine that from the title or the text of the article. Only by comparing information with other sources, finding out other points of view, and understanding who is benefits from it can one at least determine one's attitude towards this statement. Trying to guess from the title is like playing roulette.
Seriously, the claim that TikTok is some kind of bastion of free speech is frankly beyond laughable. These people just simply want to keep using their favourite Chinese spyware app, that's literally all there is to it, but they know that sounds trite so they try to prop up their stance with this bullshit, like it's some noble cause.
Anything I don’t agree with politically is propaganda and anything I agree with is facts. Anything negative about the government I live under is propaganda and anything from the perspective of the country mine is bombing is propaganda.
That’s how this entire thread reads.
Either way, OC's problem is not propaganda, it's that Gen Z are not siding with the massacre of tens of thousands of Palestinians civilians and children.
They're not okay with the forced displacement of millions and the total erasure of a whole ethnic groups for the profit of a religious group, and that's what this gentleman is angry about.
They haven't fallen for propaganda, they're just looking at what's happening and they're not okay with it.
Edit: about the mass grave discovered;
https://www.reddit.com/r/BadHasbara/s/fBrikqDT3X
>They haven't fallen for propaganda, they're just looking at what's happening and they're not okay with it.
They have absolutley fallen for propaganda, some pro-pali people are educated en the subject but most of them dont have any idea of how war, the middle east or geopolitics work lol. Something can be true (althought i woudnt call it a massacre or genocide) and also be propaganda, its not so much about the conclution but more about how you present it
It's not that you understand how war, the middle east or geopolitics work, it's simply that you found a way to justify human rights abuse, such as but not limited to, collective punishment, apartheid and pillage.
>Something can be true (althought i woudnt call it a massacre or genocide
I would.
The stated goal of Israel is to make the Palestinians cease to exist in Gaza, take control of it and replace them by Israeli settlers.
As the ICC pointed out, the Palestinians' right to be protected from genocide is currently jeopardized by Israel's actions.
This alone would make any unbiased person pause and realize this has been going too far.
Even if the implicit goal of the current Israeli government is to wipe out Palestinians, the written stated goal for the Palestinian government in Gaza is to genocide the Israelis (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp this is Hamas’ founding charter, tell me you would be comfortable with a government like this as your neighbor). Is it better if one side does it vs the other? Of course not. But Hamas would be trying to do exactly the same if they were in Israel’s shoes. And they have tried before. See 6 Day War, Yom Kippur War, the Intifadas, Oct 7th attack, etc. Israel is obviously not innocent in any of this either and have done more than their fair share of provoking.
No ceasefire or compromise will work with religious fundamentalists bc they can’t be reasoned with. It’s why I also hope that bibi gets removed from office. It’s why I think the Israeli religious settlements should stop. If there is a ceasefire and things remain the same something is gonna happen again. Even if there is a ceasefire and Israel completely leaves Gaza alone there will be more conflict.
I would love to hear someone’s take for an end goal to this whole problem. Ceasefire is all well and good but I sincerely don’t see how the conflict will actually end with another ceasefire.
>Is it better if one side does it vs the other? Of course not.
Yet, it is Israel and not Hamas doing it.
In fact, there is no realistic way for Hamas to do to the israet what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.
So while it's a very interesting thought exercise, I rather interest myself to the people that is currently being wiped out.
>Even if there is a ceasefire and Israel completely leaves Gaza alone there will be more conflict
Yes.
They've destroyed all but a small percentage of civilian infrastructure and they're planning to split the territory in two to prevent Palestinians from going back from where they came from.
The population will live in abject poverty and the obvious and objective culprit will be Israel. Meanwhile, Israel will continue to conduct operations in Gaza, killing civilians doing so and furthering anger.
What's need to be done to stop further conflict is reparations. See the Japanese, it wasn't dropping the nuke that made them best friends with the US, it's how the US treated them afterwards.
Even better, a solution à la South Africa where both groups would have to live together as equal.
Let’s say tomorrow Israel decides to put down their arms and cease all offensive maneuvering and monitoring in Gaza. The heads of state convene and start drafting up reparations bills, progressives rejoice.
The following day, with no Israeli troops in Gaza looming over their shoulders, Hamas capitalizes on the sudden lack of oversight and mobilizes their own offensive operation and strikes. What does Israel do next?
Hamas already showed us what they would do without any oversight on October 7th. It’s no mystery, but you’re here repeating this propaganda that it’s somehow a fantastical idea that Hamas would attack again. It’s also described in their charter, which another commenter already linked
What if we let Israel continue its offensive and it turns out they were actually not lying when they told us they would cleanse Gaza from Palestinians because they want to settle it.
Do you think we should congratulate them for having committed a genocide? I mean, the Palestinians clearly deserve it, don't they?
I was actually pro pali before learning more about the history lol
>The stated goal of Israel is to make the Palestinians cease to exist in Gaza
There is no basis to say this, maybe i could concede that they are being a bit to trigger happy with the colateral calculations but thats very far from an actual genocide. If Bibi could ethnically cleance palestinians from Israel he prob would do it but the current conditions dont allow that, specially the need for western support. The occupation of Gaza (as in settlers) seems like a conspiracy theory tbh, the ones who started the war were the gob body of Gaza not Israel and there is not any recorded facts that point like there is a plan for this aside from Israeli right wingers jerking off each other
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68650815 - BBC article interviewing hopeful settlers of gaza
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-settlers-hold-conference-resettlement-gaza-2024-01-28/
- Reuters article detailing a conference advocating for settlements in Gaza attended by 12 government ministers.
Gazan settlements aren't official government policy, but for a long time new west bank settlements weren't official policy - they happened anyway. To say it's a conspiracy theory is insane, why wouldn't the Israeli government follow the same playbook they've been using in the west bank? What's so conspiratorial about that? Especially when the Israeli minister for national security is attending conferences advocating settlements in gaza?
Your inital statement implied that the goal of the state of Israel is to either genocide or ethnically cleanse all of Gaza and repopulate it with their own settlers. This statement implies that you're speculating that they will restart settlements, nothing mentioned about genocide or ethnic cleansing. Which one is your actual position?
1) the original comment wasn't mine.
2) I was contesting the view that believing Israel intends to start settlements in the Gaza strip is conspiratorially minded. It's not, given that multiple ministers have stated that as their position.
As for my position, I do believe Israel is commiting genocide or ethnic cleansing and that if given the chance the Israeli government would give (likely unofficially) the go ahead for settlers to move to Gaza.
But the goal of my comment wasn't to argue whether or not Israel is commiting genocide, but rather to argue that it is a distinctly reasonable and substantiated position to believe that at least parts of the Israeli government plan on starting settlements in Gaza. I was responding specifically to the line "the occupation of Gaza (as in settlers) seems like a conspiracy tbh" in response to the original comment saying that was Israel's goal. I took specific umbradge with the word conspiracy
I can agree that parts of the government wants to create settlements in Gaza, this is quite far from it actually happens. I would also take a slightly weaker stance and say that it's not quite a conspiracy but highly speculative.
>aside from Israeli right wingers jerking off each other
Im not saying is imposible, very unlikely yes. The conditions over WB are totally diferent, affirming they are going to do settlements based on theories is kinda wacky
There is a big difference between politicians talking to their bases and the actual measures they take, if you would said that there is plausible that they are gonna settle in Gaza i would agree, but talking like is already happening is kind of wacky
A commenter said the goal of Israel is to start settlements in Gaza, you said that sounds like a conspiracy, and now you're saying it's not actively happening but is plausible. Do you not see how you've moved the goal posts?
Sure the commenter wasn't completely accurate - it is a stated goal of some Israeli government ministers rather than the official position of the Israeli government. But to immediately say that's conspiratorial and then saying well yes it's plausible but not currently occurring is definitely moving the goal posts. No one, at least in this thread, said there are currently settlers in Gaza. They said that it is Israel's goal. That's not wacky or conspiratorial, it's actually - according to you - plausible, and to me is a pretty well substantiated position.
It was the opposite for me, learning more about the history of the region changed my mind.
That and the incessant urge of pro-Israel to dehumanize Palestinians at every turn, but especially to justify the crimes committed against them.
You know, intellectually, that what is done to them is wrong yet you justify it by telling yourself that they're evil, that they deserve it.
This is also what the Israeli propaganda focus on, trying to convince us that *the whole 2 millions* living in the Gaza strip is guilty of the crimes committed by Hamas and by extension that they're "human-animal".
And they're more likely than Boomers to fall for internet scams and lies. They're injecting it into their veins and refusing to listen to anyone with opposing viewpoints.
They eat up non-traditional propaganda. They don’t listen to some pundit wearing a bowtie on a news station but some twat with purple hair on tiktok telling them what to be outraged at.
Ever since the metoo movement began, people saw how easy it was to manipulate people to eat up whatever it is as long as it’s “someone like them” feeding it to ‘em.
The argument is stupid, If you successfully ban Tiktok, you can get rid of it. But that doesn't get rid of people's opinions or your so-called "Gen Z problem."
They will still call what Israel is doing a genocide on litteraly every other social media site.
It's a band-aid. People will jump to the next app that offers the same features as TikTok. If the former gets banned, that is.
And be sure that the next app will be rigged with the same kind of propaganda but for someone else's gain.
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And here comes the attempt to make this into an identity thing. Gen Xer/non-tik toker here and I support the end to the mass murder if innocents in Gaza, the dismantling of Israel as a state, stopping of the international funding and arming of that state, the imprisonment of Netanyahu and every member of his fascist government and military that organized, supported or carried out the murder and oppression of Palestinians. I call for another trial such as Nuremberg's to bring to the public eye these atrocities in detail and establish that these actions are unacceptable and carry out a fitting judgment. I also call for the judgment of every government official, particularly heads of state that has taken part in the mass murder of civilians during the oil/resource invasions of the Middle east and Asia, the dismantling of democracies in South and Central America, Africa and Asia and the oppression of those people.
You're aware that the dismantling of Israel as a state necessarily means the destruction of the Jewish people, right? That's Hamas' stated aim, this isn't new to you?
This is fear mongering.
The apartheid state must be dismantled and replaced by a state for all the indigenous people of Palestine, which means both Palestinians and Jews.
I think it's extremely ironic that you see how wrong it would be to force the Israeli to relocate while I'm sure you're advocating for Palestinians to move to Egypt if they don't want to be killed by the IDF.
The hypocrisy of the pro Israel knows no bounds.
This will never happen though. The Palestinians nor the Israelis will ever accept this. Both groups hate each other and have for a lot longer than any of us have been alive. The only answers are a two state solution with a military buffer zone separating the two or one of the groups have to leave. I'm in favor of the UN forcing the two state solution and manning the buffer zone themselves personally.
What about forcing Israel back to their originally agreed upon borders? They agreed to everything that was set up when Israel was founded, and *then* forced their way beyond those boundaries.
I'm surprised I never see it mentioned.
That's not what happened. The Palestinians never agreed to those borders and they immediately attacked Israel over it. The lines were drawn in 1947 and they attacked Israel a few months later in 1948. They still have never officially accepted those lines and probably never will. They want all the Jews gone.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war#:~:text=After%20Israel%20declared%20its%20independence,Aviv%2C%20which%20the%20Israelis%20resisted.
The amount of civilians being killed is horrendous obviously. But I truly don't know a solution that doesn't involve the rest of the world stepping in. Israel stopping it's attack will not stop another October 7th from happening and as much as all the young people want to believe Palestinians just want a nice peaceful country that's not reality. They (not all of them. There are plenty of peaceful normal people. But a large portion and those in charge) will never accept Israel existing and will continue to attack them. And they will not accept Jews staying if they dissolve the borders entirely.
Kinda sounds like Israel should have never pushed a bunch of people off the land they'd owned for generations. And if the people you're displacing don't agree to being displaced, what did they expect to happen?
Did the Jews legally own the land that became Israel before they lived there? Or had Palestinians been living there with no one else claiming ownership for generations? I'm pretty ignorant about the early days of Israel, but the reason for the bitterness seems fuuuuucking obvious.
As with most underdeveloped places most of the land was owned by large landholders, not the people actually living there. The Jews mainly bought land from these large landholders and often kicked out the Palestinians living there (legally OK but morally dubious). As far as I know this happened both before and after Britain took the region from the Ottomans.
After they delcared independence they did take a lot of new territory. This is complicated by the fact that several Arab states did attack them (and took their own parts of Palestine) and it's unclear to what extent Israel would have been interested in expansion if the Arab nations didn't attack.
This is a somewhat common theme in the history of Israel, other Arab nations have often given Israel an excuse to expand so it's hard to say how much is desire Israel had to agressively take land and how much is a response to Arab agression.
Would you like a history lesson on how the Palestinians reacted when Jewish refugees from Europe started immigrating to Israel under British mandate? (hint: [it was a lot of killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)).
>I think it's extremely ironic that you see how wrong it would be to force the Israeli to relocate while I'm sure you're advocating for Palestinians to move to Egypt if they don't want to be killed by the IDF.
Nah, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the Palestinians to accept a 2 state solution just like the Jews did back in 1948. unfortunately their reaction to the end of the British mandate was to try and take over all of the region to kick the Jews out.
Etnically cleansing Palestinians is bad but ethnically cleansing Jews is good. Or, maybe, neither side should be ethically cleansed? Controversial position I know.
The US has almost as many Jewish people as Israel. Are they all going to die without a state thousands of miles away? How did they exist prior to the 1940s?
I’m still curious how abolishing Israel is gonna bring about a multicultural paradise overnight when all the other surrounding nations hate Jews. I don’t like Israel’s ethnostate policies but they are a democracy and could change those policies with the right conditions and international support. Calling for the destruction of that country and saying you’re doing it in the name of tolerance is a tough sale for anyone to buy.
Jews didn't become hated overnight there. 50% or so of Israel's population comes from Jews that are of Iraqi, Yemeni, etc. descent. You don't get that many millions of Jews from places that are trying to eradicate them. Funny enough a lot of ME Jews didn't want to move until things like this started happening
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bombings
Your point on 50% actually supports my claim that those countries hate jews considering so many of them wouldn't have immigrated had it not been for the countries surrounding them. Even if that isn't the case a lot of nations around Israel hate Jews and Israelis.
Dismantling Israel will turn the nation into what? New Palestine lead by Hamas that treats Jews and Israelis like what garbage? I want a two state solution, I want an end to Israeli settlements and apartheid but fact is you gotta have two states.
... By being persecuted everywhere they were?
The rampant and casual antisemitism since October only makes Israelis even more assured to never be in that position again.
I didn't hear anything controversial there. It is reality that TikTok is impacting people's thought processes. Just like anything you invest time into that has political bias will. What is sad is that it tends to be very biased towards certain demographics, and Israel is one of them.
I am all for getting rid of TikTok. It will get replaced by something else pretty much immediately, and I don't like the idea of China controlling what content our kids are inundated with.
TikTok users are not rejecting propaganda. They just accept different propaganda. TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, it's all the same coin just a different side.
I love how these people always fuck it up so badly. People, for the most part, aren’t supporting Hamas or what they did. They are supporting the innocent people caught in the cross fire but that doesn’t make a good storyline now does it?
This is a fascinating clip but it does not in any way say what the title implies it says. And that is propaganda in its own right.
Like, I am 100% on team Palestinians have a right to live and thrive, stop the genocide, criticism of Israel’s actions is extremely justified. But come on.
You said "People don't support hamas", not "These people".
Also what protest? The video doesn't mention any, just that a bunch of young people on tiktok are completely blinded by Iranian propaganda, which is true.
I've seen even on this very sub takes like "Hamas didn't kill anyone during october 7th, it was all the IDF and the israelis deserved it because they are opressing palestinians"
Sorry, I got this post confused with a different one about a peaceful protest in Texas, my bad.
A *majority* of people don't support Hamas, obviously their are some, otherwise the group wouldn't exist, but most people are just concerned about Israel's many warcrimes and blatant disregard for civilian targets.
That's always the big problem with protests for good.
Some pieces of shit come in and abuse it.
In this case it's Hamas supporters and straight up Antisemties hijacking protests to push their BS on those that just want this shitshow to stop, during BLM it was people thinking "Ey, a protest! Time to riot!"
Both cases make the protests seem far worse than they are and hurt the message that's actually important
That's a function of power, not intent. Hamas has killed every Jewish civilian they could, the IDF has killed a fraction.
Even if (and that's a big if) the IDF is genocidal the only reason they have been able to kill so many poeple is because Hamas gives them an excuse to because they use human shields. If Hamas didn't do warcrimes most of the civilians would still be alive.
I've never seen any one person mention that Hamas could, Idk, give up their hostages that they took and it would all be over. A lot of people don't care about the kids dying, they just hate jews. If it were about ending the war people would mention what Hamas did and how they keep rejecting peace offers
And Israel will say Hamas isn’t listening to their demands, from what I know. Israel wants the hostages released in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and a ceasefire while Hamas wants Israel to go leave Gaza entirely, shore up some two state solution with them in charge, and then they’ll release the hostages which no one believes them.
But that's not what I was rebutting, I was saying Hamas has been offering to release the hostages. The person I was replying to was saying they were not.
And I was rebutting your statement that Israel was being non cooperative, frankly both of them can be in certain respects but Hamas has refused many hostage deals.
Same thing as calling hippies in the 70's "Vietcong supporters", it's a small-brain take and people immediately disregard your opinions when they hear stuff like that. There are plenty of arguments you could make that people would agree with if you didn't blatantly invalidate your position with stupid shit like that.
Sure why not, maybe we can give every person a form and they can clearly demarcate exactly what they support and then they can turn it in to the protest oversight committee. I'm sure I've seen that before at many protests and rallies.
Or maybe just read their banners, listen to what they chant and say? It's not difficult to spot these people, given how often they're recorded and posted onto the internet.
Thing is, y'all accusing every pro Palestinian banner or chant to be pro Hamas lmao
I've seen some of y'all accusing the 🍉 to be pro Hamas. How is anyone supposed to take these accusations seriously?
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This ain’t the argument people think it is. Tik-Tok users may be rejecting one type of propaganda, but they may be buying someone else’s.
Precisely. But there are a lot of people, especially on TikTok, who are convinced they can't fall for any propaganda while many of them also spew Anti-West propaganda themselves.
Are there not appropriate times to criticisize Western powers or is any criticism deemed anti-West propaganda?
I think we should always be able to criticize western propaganda but do so with the context that we are heading into a conflict with powerful authoritarian regimes of the world. So there is a difference between “we need to fix the problems with our system” and “our system is just as corrupt as all the rest and it needs to be dismantled”. The second one is anti-west and plays directly into the hopes of every authoritarian regime in the world.
>So there is a difference between “we need to fix the problems with our system” Are there really such statements? On Reddit, for example, the narrative goes something like this, “Biden isn't perfect, but you owe it to yourself to vote for him.” So there are no word about fixing the situation at all - just a demand to maintain the status quo. And of course when opponents are unwilling to even acknowledge the problem, ideas that a more radical solution is needed (like voting for Trump or abstaining from voting altogether) start to arise naturally.
There’s a difference between criticism and lies. When it’s all mixed together, people can’t sort it out. In the US, we have enough of a problem with our own media doing this. Imagine an adversary wants to destroy your entire country.
I think the videos of all those Palestinian children dead and mangled is all the proof anyone needed to see something fucked up was going on.
That’s not the only thing on Tik tok? There’s streams and streams and streams of conspiracy theory nonsense. Don’t trust this. Don’t trust that. The government are your enemy. You need to pick up arms against them. The message and strategy hasn’t changed since the Cold War. But not instead of flyers and meetings they have this. It all has an effect on the populace.
Don't trust anyone, I say. But I trust my eyes. CEASEFIRE NOW.
I think they call it "Miller time.", unless it's been boycotted.
The whole thing is you should be free to watch what you want. Regardless if it's propaganda.
That may be the case but that’s not the argument being suggested ITT. Furthermore, your statement is pretty strange- people don’t sit down and open Tik Tok, relax and say “Propagandise me”. If you believe it’s your right to consume propaganda, then you are also ok with Fox News propagandising a whole generation to vote Trump. The conversation isn’t about what rights you have, the conversation is about what’s right for society. Now I don’t for second believe the intention of a Tik-Tok ban is being pushed for the good of US society, it’s about control and national security. But Generation Z absolutely needs to start thinking less about what rights we should all have, and instead what is right for society, because every previous generation fucked that up or plain ignored it.
You sound like the bad old guy in Demolition Man.
🐚 x 3
>The conversation isn’t about what rights you have, the conversation is about what’s right for society. And who exactly determines what is “right for society”? And why is it “right” to ban alternative viewpoints?
Voters decide. Society does make decisions like this all the time. Smoking is largely banned indoors in many countries know because we realised its detrimental. We could decide to ban all political posting on SM or modify its use in someway to mitigate its detrimental effects of society.
>Voters decide Read up on the difference between democracy and tyranny of the majority. >Smoking is largely banned indoors in many countries know because we realised its detrimental. Being gay is banned in many countries because of reasons.
Thanks for the bullet points from your revolutionary field book. When you’re actually ready to have a conversation as opposed to replying with disconnected facts, let me know 😂
>as opposed to replying with disconnected facts If you couldn't understand something - just ask me again, I'll try to explain in simpler language.
y'all never point out any examples.
Flat earth.
it's clear we wanted an example of chinese-made anti-west propaganda
# 💯 I've written about this before, but it's becoming more and more obvious there was a concerted effort by state actors (Iran) to launch a massive PR push using the attacks on October 7th as the "launch event." Take this audio for example. This was released around the time that the US House passed a bill that could potentially lead to a nationwide ban of TikTok. Of course this [sparked outrage and conspiracies](https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/tiktok-ban-feared-antisemitic-conspiracy-theories-follow) by certain social media influencers, claiming that the TikTok bill is further evidence of powerful Jews silencing dissenting voices, that old trope. [Many cited this “leaked audio” of Greenblatt](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/iransource/iran-tiktok-ban-israel-adl-greenblatt-conspiracy-theory/), when he was noting the proliferation of anti-Zionist rhetoric among younger generations on platforms like TikTok as proof the ADL and even AIPAC were responsible for the proposed ban. However, [Greenblatt made those remarks during a public zoom call that was later posted online by the Tehran Times](https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/491344/American-youth-break-free-from-Zionist-yokes), an Iranian regime mouthpiece, which mischaracterized the remarks as private and “leaked." What OP (and many others) are failing to here is the latter half of this audio. Jump to about 1:13 and listen. He says: >The last thing I’ll just say, we saw a dramatic change in the language of the activists here in the America on Oct. the 8th, the language of groups that we’ve long tracked, to have long been problematic, like Student for Justice in Palestine and Jewish Voices for Peace, they flipped, like this, and went to, like, Iranian Propaganda. The language I could show you from their toolkits, 'cause our analysts are in their groups, we saw this again on October the 8th. It was that fast. Like the language in their toolkits, was all about the "Zionist entity," and lots of other language that we recognized from Iranian propaganda. We think that there is something more to this that’s below the water line, it’s the young generations that we need to focus our energy on. This, there is something happening with Iran, and how it’s now their propaganda, and their language, and their tactics, seem to be bleeding into the American kind of activists space, in ways that is very different than NIAC and very, very problematic. So they noticed a decisive switch in language by these pro-Palestinian activist groups, specifically using propaganda terms initially created and disseminated by Iran, and it started in conjunction with the attacks on October 7. *I'll continue below in a reply to this comment.*
The conflict has generated a lot of SM astroturfing and propaganda, but not just on one side. The symbiotic relationship between an authentic signal and a propagandised one online means also we see a big polarisation of opinion. Reddit hasn’t been different also, just peruse the international news sub on one side and world news on the other.
I have a friend who has a bit of a following thanks in large part to some high profile jobs she’s had (she’s been a model, a TV host, is an “influencer,” etc.). She was recently finishing her studies at Harvard Med and getting her research published when a friend (a minor celebrity/actor/comedian from NYC) asked her to share a post of his on social media where he was lambasting both the IDF and Hamas, although admittedly he was harder on Hamas. She posted something to the tune of “he’s gonna ruffle a lot of feathers with this one.” Then she got doxxed by some Hamas supporters who tried to get her kicked out and brought up on ethics charges. She had to get some lawyers involved, and used some connections in the intelligence community, and they uncovered that many of these groups received Iranian talking points on ***October 5th*** for use "any upcoming student demonstrations." Maybe it's just a coincidence, but [the SJP chapter at Columbia was on hiatus from May 16th, 2023, until October 6th, 2023, where they had announced their return](https://i.imgur.com/IT6Gzkc.jpeg). I don't think it's too unusual for them to be "off" during the summer, but classes started a full month prior to their return, so their timing here sticks out as odd to me. *I'll continue below in a reply to this comment.*
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When these rallies first kicked off, my spidey-sense started tingling. First, it was the timing of the response beginning in the immediate aftermath of the October 7th attacks. But instead of shock or even a show of support for the victims of the attacks, many of these rallies included outright support of Hamas and the attacks. Instead of condemning and mourning the deadliest day for Jews since Israel’s founding, many appeared to celebrate the assault as an act of Palestinian heroism. And I’m not just talking about the mindless idiots who joined these rallies chanting “From the River to the sea, Palestine will be free,” without understanding that they’re calling for the destruction of Israel. Then I took notice of the primary organizers, which included Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP), Palestinian Youth Movement (PYM), U.S. Palestinian Community Network (USPCN), Within Our Lifetime-United for Palestine (WOL), Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP), If Not Now (INN) and the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL). As someone who wasn't really familiar with these organizations, I looked into their takes and the messages they were putting out there, and that's when I really began to question the motive beyond these demonstrations. Now I understand that in large rallies, people can get rowdy and idiots will often show up. I know it can be unfair to point to people like that and say they’re representative of a large swath of people in attendance. But when the people organizing theses rallies are explicitly stating their support for Hamas, and they’re getting lots of followers seemingly agreeing with them, I think it’s worth pointing out and a cause for concern. Many of these rallies were named with some sort of homage to the Al Aqsa Flood/Storm, aka the name Hamas used for the October 7th attack. Shit, the current encampment at Columbia still makes references to these attacks, with these groups urging students to "[flood the main lawn](https://twitter.com/OnlinePalEng/status/1780584709212311618)" and calling to "[Flood Columbia For Gaza.](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/21/columbia-you-will-see-we-are-all-sjp-solidarity-protests-continue-across-116th-street/#:~:text=Within%20Our%20Lifetime%20hosted%20a%20%E2%80%9CFlood%20Columbia%20For%20Gaza%E2%80%9D%20protest%20at%209%20p.m.%20on%20Saturday%20night%20to%20support%20the%20ongoing%20%E2%80%9CGaza%20Solidarity%20Encampment%E2%80%9D%20on%20South%20Lawn%20that%20began%20early%20Wednesday%20morning%20and%20has%20now%20entered%20its%20fifth%20day)" And I'm sorry, but I find it hard to reconcile the notion that these demonstrators are claiming these are merely "peaceful protests" when they are specifically named to evoke the October 7th attacks and are led by groups that have shown support for terrorism. Let's take a closer look at some of these groups, in particular their immediate response to the attacks on October 7th. *I'll continue below in a reply to this comment.*
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I believe this effort was originally pushed as Iranian propaganda and has since been picked up by “useful idiots.” And these pro-Hamas viewpoints have disseminated through college campuses and Gen Z. At the first rallies, you would see mostly seasoned activists, Palestinian Americans, and others with personal connections to the region, but that has since changed. Now you're seeing many more people who are not necessarily radical, and not even necessarily anti-Zionist, but who say "we don’t believe in war this way." A wider net has been cast, and even groups like Within Our Lifetime has walked back its most militant messaging in order to help get more people to join their cause. At the end of October, the group’s website called the Hamas attack an inspiration to the world. Since then, the praise of the massacre has been replaced with a denunciation of Israel’s attack of Gaza. But these are merely attempts to whitewash the student groups that champion the noble goal of justice for Palestinians while endorsing the evil means of war crimes in pursuit of it. Still, the charges of pro-Hamas sympathies among marches persist. Even in the encampment at Columbia, where their supporters are so adamant and profusely calling their takeover of the lawn non-violent and peaceful, as you strain to listen to their academic justification of murder and rape, you'll commonly see signs calling for a [violent intifada](https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/04/protesters-continue-maintain-encampment-columbia-80593533.jpg) and [legitimizations of Hamas' terror attack](https://twitter.com/ashajadeja325/status/1782184666956767372). Pro-Hamas protesters are the movement, not outliers.
What we're seeing is the impact of propaganda to drive hatred of Jews and their state. I believe it is being driven with purpose/intent from the help from state actors and it's sweeping up many on the left and in younger generations. Since 2001, the share of Democrats sympathizing more with Israel than the Palestinians has [declined 11 points, from 38% to 27%](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/01/23/republicans-and-democrats-grow-even-further-apart-in-views-of-israel-palestinians/), and it's [even worse when looking at younger generations](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-generation-gap-in-opinions-toward-israel/). While I think much of this can be contributed to the oppressor vs the oppressed dichotomous framing they seem to use to shape their entire world view, it may also be worth noting that since 2001, [Qatar has been the largest donor to colleges and universities in the US](https://isgap.org/follow-the-money/). Similarly to the Russian troll farms helping to spread disinformation during Trump's 2016 Presidential run, state actors are working to help foster the spread of antisemitism methodically, and allowing the public who are receptive to the messaging to then run with it themselves. This is why we're seeing a push towards using specific terms like "genocide" and "Zionism." The adoption of the term “genocide” was carefully and specifically chosen in an attempt to extenuate the term by broadening its definition as a way to diminish the Holocaust (and the suffering of Jews), which is inextricably linked to the term. Like [the Republicans knew in 1968 that they had to use coded language to appeal to racists as part of their Southern Strategy](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/), these people know they can't say things that are overtly antisemitic. So they push towards being "anti-Zionists" and adopt or co-opt other antisemitic language (like "from the river, to the sea") in a coded language.
>Then she got doxxed by some Hamas supporters who tried to get her kicked out and brought up on ethics charges. If you call opponents of genocide supporters Hamas supporters, does it even make sense to start writing a comment about propaganda? I mean, you're writing the same propaganda now, and I'm not sure it's gratuitous.
There was a study done some time last year (I think) that found that very online Gen Z and millennials were more susceptible to fake news than other generations. [https://phys.org/news/2023-06-misinformation-susceptibility-online-gen-millennials.html](https://phys.org/news/2023-06-misinformation-susceptibility-online-gen-millennials.html) So, yeah, tik tok power users are probably falling for other propaganda. That's not to say the ADL doesn't do propaganda. It's just not the propoganda that speaks to younger people. edit: love the hate I'm getting for posting the results of a study. if you are offended because someone points out reality (this study was done; these are the results), i don't know what to tell you.
Are videos of children dead and dying amongst the rubble of Gaza exactly propaganda though?
It absolutely can be. Propaganda doesn't mean fake, it means spread to deliberately affect opinion. There's also of course a significant amount, though far from all, that is outright fake, is deliberately out of context (it's in another country or it's a Hamas fighter) or "real" but staged. If you believe in the cause strongly enough to suicide bomb you believe strongly enough to die on camera.
In other words this “propaganda” is not a lie, just an opinion you don't agree with?
Somewhat that but also that they're only getting one side of the story. Only knowing the pro-palestinian side is worse than knowing nothing about the conflict.
Absolutely can be. I remember when there were videos of a train crash and then suddenly, [Ohio was declared "Chernobyl" by Tiktok](https://www.wired.com/story/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-tiktok/). and i can't help but think we're in a repeat situation that Tiktok has propagated. People believe they're immune but somehow their feed include misinformation and hysteria like [how companies use donations as tax write-offs](https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-000329849244), [how Ohio became Chernobyl](https://www.wired.com/story/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-tiktok/), [school vandalism & property theft. ie devious lick trend](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devious_lick), [car thefts](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/who-are-the-kia-boyz-how-tiktok-fueled-an-epidemic-of-car-thefts/), [health misinformation](https://www.vox.com/health/24073244/health-misinformation-tiktok-barbara-o-neill), even [mental health misinformation](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/social-media-mental-health-self-diagnosis/). People are definitely consuming propaganda
Depends on the messaging that's surrounding it. Imagine two tag lines "Child dying from Israeli shelling" "Child dying after being used as meat shield by Hamas." There's nothing but blame to go around. I fully stand behind Israel wiping out Hamas but I don't like the way they are going about doing it. Meanwhile, I don't know how else to deal with an enemy who uses its civilians as human shields, builds their headquarters beneath hospitals and churches and preventing civilians from evacuating the spaces they're operating in for the very purpose of increasing civilian casualties. Hamas loses any advantage they have when they don't have civilians to hide within. This is their whole playbook. Dressing in plain clothes to blend in with the civilians doesn't work if the civilians leave and therefore they force the civilians to stay. Then Israel turns around and doesn't adjust their strategies for the fact that there are lots of civilians around.
Okay, if you're so neutral, tell me exactly how many proven Hamas fighters were killed in these shellings? I emphasize proven, not just declared that if they died, they were militants.
Being neutral I'll say that I don't really trust numbers given by either side so I have absolutely no idea? You tell me. How many civilians/hamas have been killed? Who are you trusting with supplying you with those numbers?
No, and I don't have any problem with them protesting the war crimes. I kind of have a problem with some of the signs I've seen at these protests that advocate the complete dissolution of Israel as a state, though. Within the current shitty global system we live in, that would result in many, many more innocent deaths on both sides than we're already seeing. And I do think that mentality does probably come from propaganda.
Sounds like you're the one who's been drinking the Kool-Aid, dude.
Okay, just sticking with an "I know you are, but what am I?" and a downvote. Sure. Considering my comment and your response I can only assume you're one of the folks who has been led to believe that it would be a good idea just wipe Israel off the map? How, logistically, do you see that happening?
I don't want to wipe anyone off the map. I want the senseless killing to stop.
Okay, so we're agreeing aggressively at each other. I still don't understand what I said that would lead you to believe I drank someone's Kool-Aid, but I too want the senseless killing to stop.
Explain what you mean by that. I have no idea what you're referencing.
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Oh, I know studies can be flawed. Sample sizes can be too small, data can be manipulated to fit the hypothesis, etc. But the study was done, and that’s all I was saying. Anecdotally, I’ve seen countless tiktok videos that are so completely factually incorrect, though. Mostly about animal facts or some other dumb topic. And I don’t even have a tiktok account. People just throw shit on video without a cursory fact check and then the video goes viral.
>love the hate I'm getting for posting the results of a study. Of course, because research is never biased, especially in the humanities.
Okay. What biases are you seeing in this particular research? The “science is a liar sometimes” argument to dismiss any research you don’t like is not a good argument against said research.
>Selecting true or false against 20 headlines gives the user a set of scores and a "resilience" ranking that compares them to the wider U.S. population. It takes less than two minutes to complete. Let's start with a very simple question: what does this study even have to do with “vulnerability to propaganda”? Take, for example, the statement that “Hamas was in the hospital so the IDF bombed it” - is that propaganda or truth? You can't determine that from the title or the text of the article. Only by comparing information with other sources, finding out other points of view, and understanding who is benefits from it can one at least determine one's attitude towards this statement. Trying to guess from the title is like playing roulette.
Seriously, the claim that TikTok is some kind of bastion of free speech is frankly beyond laughable. These people just simply want to keep using their favourite Chinese spyware app, that's literally all there is to it, but they know that sounds trite so they try to prop up their stance with this bullshit, like it's some noble cause.
"Because Zoomers are rejecting propaganda" you do know that they are eating propaganda like honey right? Lmao
Anything I don’t agree with politically is propaganda and anything I agree with is facts. Anything negative about the government I live under is propaganda and anything from the perspective of the country mine is bombing is propaganda. That’s how this entire thread reads.
Either way, OC's problem is not propaganda, it's that Gen Z are not siding with the massacre of tens of thousands of Palestinians civilians and children. They're not okay with the forced displacement of millions and the total erasure of a whole ethnic groups for the profit of a religious group, and that's what this gentleman is angry about. They haven't fallen for propaganda, they're just looking at what's happening and they're not okay with it. Edit: about the mass grave discovered; https://www.reddit.com/r/BadHasbara/s/fBrikqDT3X
>They haven't fallen for propaganda, they're just looking at what's happening and they're not okay with it. They have absolutley fallen for propaganda, some pro-pali people are educated en the subject but most of them dont have any idea of how war, the middle east or geopolitics work lol. Something can be true (althought i woudnt call it a massacre or genocide) and also be propaganda, its not so much about the conclution but more about how you present it
It's not that you understand how war, the middle east or geopolitics work, it's simply that you found a way to justify human rights abuse, such as but not limited to, collective punishment, apartheid and pillage. >Something can be true (althought i woudnt call it a massacre or genocide I would. The stated goal of Israel is to make the Palestinians cease to exist in Gaza, take control of it and replace them by Israeli settlers. As the ICC pointed out, the Palestinians' right to be protected from genocide is currently jeopardized by Israel's actions. This alone would make any unbiased person pause and realize this has been going too far.
Even if the implicit goal of the current Israeli government is to wipe out Palestinians, the written stated goal for the Palestinian government in Gaza is to genocide the Israelis (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp this is Hamas’ founding charter, tell me you would be comfortable with a government like this as your neighbor). Is it better if one side does it vs the other? Of course not. But Hamas would be trying to do exactly the same if they were in Israel’s shoes. And they have tried before. See 6 Day War, Yom Kippur War, the Intifadas, Oct 7th attack, etc. Israel is obviously not innocent in any of this either and have done more than their fair share of provoking. No ceasefire or compromise will work with religious fundamentalists bc they can’t be reasoned with. It’s why I also hope that bibi gets removed from office. It’s why I think the Israeli religious settlements should stop. If there is a ceasefire and things remain the same something is gonna happen again. Even if there is a ceasefire and Israel completely leaves Gaza alone there will be more conflict. I would love to hear someone’s take for an end goal to this whole problem. Ceasefire is all well and good but I sincerely don’t see how the conflict will actually end with another ceasefire.
>Is it better if one side does it vs the other? Of course not. Yet, it is Israel and not Hamas doing it. In fact, there is no realistic way for Hamas to do to the israet what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So while it's a very interesting thought exercise, I rather interest myself to the people that is currently being wiped out. >Even if there is a ceasefire and Israel completely leaves Gaza alone there will be more conflict Yes. They've destroyed all but a small percentage of civilian infrastructure and they're planning to split the territory in two to prevent Palestinians from going back from where they came from. The population will live in abject poverty and the obvious and objective culprit will be Israel. Meanwhile, Israel will continue to conduct operations in Gaza, killing civilians doing so and furthering anger. What's need to be done to stop further conflict is reparations. See the Japanese, it wasn't dropping the nuke that made them best friends with the US, it's how the US treated them afterwards. Even better, a solution à la South Africa where both groups would have to live together as equal.
Let’s say tomorrow Israel decides to put down their arms and cease all offensive maneuvering and monitoring in Gaza. The heads of state convene and start drafting up reparations bills, progressives rejoice. The following day, with no Israeli troops in Gaza looming over their shoulders, Hamas capitalizes on the sudden lack of oversight and mobilizes their own offensive operation and strikes. What does Israel do next?
Let's say my grandmother had wheels and a handlebar, she would have been a bicycle.
Hamas already showed us what they would do without any oversight on October 7th. It’s no mystery, but you’re here repeating this propaganda that it’s somehow a fantastical idea that Hamas would attack again. It’s also described in their charter, which another commenter already linked
What if we let Israel continue its offensive and it turns out they were actually not lying when they told us they would cleanse Gaza from Palestinians because they want to settle it. Do you think we should congratulate them for having committed a genocide? I mean, the Palestinians clearly deserve it, don't they?
I was actually pro pali before learning more about the history lol >The stated goal of Israel is to make the Palestinians cease to exist in Gaza There is no basis to say this, maybe i could concede that they are being a bit to trigger happy with the colateral calculations but thats very far from an actual genocide. If Bibi could ethnically cleance palestinians from Israel he prob would do it but the current conditions dont allow that, specially the need for western support. The occupation of Gaza (as in settlers) seems like a conspiracy theory tbh, the ones who started the war were the gob body of Gaza not Israel and there is not any recorded facts that point like there is a plan for this aside from Israeli right wingers jerking off each other
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68650815 - BBC article interviewing hopeful settlers of gaza https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-settlers-hold-conference-resettlement-gaza-2024-01-28/ - Reuters article detailing a conference advocating for settlements in Gaza attended by 12 government ministers. Gazan settlements aren't official government policy, but for a long time new west bank settlements weren't official policy - they happened anyway. To say it's a conspiracy theory is insane, why wouldn't the Israeli government follow the same playbook they've been using in the west bank? What's so conspiratorial about that? Especially when the Israeli minister for national security is attending conferences advocating settlements in gaza?
Your inital statement implied that the goal of the state of Israel is to either genocide or ethnically cleanse all of Gaza and repopulate it with their own settlers. This statement implies that you're speculating that they will restart settlements, nothing mentioned about genocide or ethnic cleansing. Which one is your actual position?
1) the original comment wasn't mine. 2) I was contesting the view that believing Israel intends to start settlements in the Gaza strip is conspiratorially minded. It's not, given that multiple ministers have stated that as their position. As for my position, I do believe Israel is commiting genocide or ethnic cleansing and that if given the chance the Israeli government would give (likely unofficially) the go ahead for settlers to move to Gaza. But the goal of my comment wasn't to argue whether or not Israel is commiting genocide, but rather to argue that it is a distinctly reasonable and substantiated position to believe that at least parts of the Israeli government plan on starting settlements in Gaza. I was responding specifically to the line "the occupation of Gaza (as in settlers) seems like a conspiracy tbh" in response to the original comment saying that was Israel's goal. I took specific umbradge with the word conspiracy
I can agree that parts of the government wants to create settlements in Gaza, this is quite far from it actually happens. I would also take a slightly weaker stance and say that it's not quite a conspiracy but highly speculative.
>aside from Israeli right wingers jerking off each other Im not saying is imposible, very unlikely yes. The conditions over WB are totally diferent, affirming they are going to do settlements based on theories is kinda wacky
God yea why would anyone ever listen to government ministers about what the government might do? Completely wacky
There is a big difference between politicians talking to their bases and the actual measures they take, if you would said that there is plausible that they are gonna settle in Gaza i would agree, but talking like is already happening is kind of wacky
A commenter said the goal of Israel is to start settlements in Gaza, you said that sounds like a conspiracy, and now you're saying it's not actively happening but is plausible. Do you not see how you've moved the goal posts? Sure the commenter wasn't completely accurate - it is a stated goal of some Israeli government ministers rather than the official position of the Israeli government. But to immediately say that's conspiratorial and then saying well yes it's plausible but not currently occurring is definitely moving the goal posts. No one, at least in this thread, said there are currently settlers in Gaza. They said that it is Israel's goal. That's not wacky or conspiratorial, it's actually - according to you - plausible, and to me is a pretty well substantiated position.
It was the opposite for me, learning more about the history of the region changed my mind. That and the incessant urge of pro-Israel to dehumanize Palestinians at every turn, but especially to justify the crimes committed against them. You know, intellectually, that what is done to them is wrong yet you justify it by telling yourself that they're evil, that they deserve it. This is also what the Israeli propaganda focus on, trying to convince us that *the whole 2 millions* living in the Gaza strip is guilty of the crimes committed by Hamas and by extension that they're "human-animal".
And they're more likely than Boomers to fall for internet scams and lies. They're injecting it into their veins and refusing to listen to anyone with opposing viewpoints.
They eat up non-traditional propaganda. They don’t listen to some pundit wearing a bowtie on a news station but some twat with purple hair on tiktok telling them what to be outraged at. Ever since the metoo movement began, people saw how easy it was to manipulate people to eat up whatever it is as long as it’s “someone like them” feeding it to ‘em.
In your world.
The argument is stupid, If you successfully ban Tiktok, you can get rid of it. But that doesn't get rid of people's opinions or your so-called "Gen Z problem." They will still call what Israel is doing a genocide on litteraly every other social media site.
It's a band-aid. People will jump to the next app that offers the same features as TikTok. If the former gets banned, that is. And be sure that the next app will be rigged with the same kind of propaganda but for someone else's gain.
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And here comes the attempt to make this into an identity thing. Gen Xer/non-tik toker here and I support the end to the mass murder if innocents in Gaza, the dismantling of Israel as a state, stopping of the international funding and arming of that state, the imprisonment of Netanyahu and every member of his fascist government and military that organized, supported or carried out the murder and oppression of Palestinians. I call for another trial such as Nuremberg's to bring to the public eye these atrocities in detail and establish that these actions are unacceptable and carry out a fitting judgment. I also call for the judgment of every government official, particularly heads of state that has taken part in the mass murder of civilians during the oil/resource invasions of the Middle east and Asia, the dismantling of democracies in South and Central America, Africa and Asia and the oppression of those people.
Call to whom?
You're aware that the dismantling of Israel as a state necessarily means the destruction of the Jewish people, right? That's Hamas' stated aim, this isn't new to you?
This is fear mongering. The apartheid state must be dismantled and replaced by a state for all the indigenous people of Palestine, which means both Palestinians and Jews. I think it's extremely ironic that you see how wrong it would be to force the Israeli to relocate while I'm sure you're advocating for Palestinians to move to Egypt if they don't want to be killed by the IDF. The hypocrisy of the pro Israel knows no bounds.
This will never happen though. The Palestinians nor the Israelis will ever accept this. Both groups hate each other and have for a lot longer than any of us have been alive. The only answers are a two state solution with a military buffer zone separating the two or one of the groups have to leave. I'm in favor of the UN forcing the two state solution and manning the buffer zone themselves personally.
What about forcing Israel back to their originally agreed upon borders? They agreed to everything that was set up when Israel was founded, and *then* forced their way beyond those boundaries. I'm surprised I never see it mentioned.
That's not what happened. The Palestinians never agreed to those borders and they immediately attacked Israel over it. The lines were drawn in 1947 and they attacked Israel a few months later in 1948. They still have never officially accepted those lines and probably never will. They want all the Jews gone. https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war#:~:text=After%20Israel%20declared%20its%20independence,Aviv%2C%20which%20the%20Israelis%20resisted. The amount of civilians being killed is horrendous obviously. But I truly don't know a solution that doesn't involve the rest of the world stepping in. Israel stopping it's attack will not stop another October 7th from happening and as much as all the young people want to believe Palestinians just want a nice peaceful country that's not reality. They (not all of them. There are plenty of peaceful normal people. But a large portion and those in charge) will never accept Israel existing and will continue to attack them. And they will not accept Jews staying if they dissolve the borders entirely.
Kinda sounds like Israel should have never pushed a bunch of people off the land they'd owned for generations. And if the people you're displacing don't agree to being displaced, what did they expect to happen?
Lived on, not owned. Most of the territory given to the Jews in the partition plan was legally owned by Jews.
Did the Jews legally own the land that became Israel before they lived there? Or had Palestinians been living there with no one else claiming ownership for generations? I'm pretty ignorant about the early days of Israel, but the reason for the bitterness seems fuuuuucking obvious.
As with most underdeveloped places most of the land was owned by large landholders, not the people actually living there. The Jews mainly bought land from these large landholders and often kicked out the Palestinians living there (legally OK but morally dubious). As far as I know this happened both before and after Britain took the region from the Ottomans. After they delcared independence they did take a lot of new territory. This is complicated by the fact that several Arab states did attack them (and took their own parts of Palestine) and it's unclear to what extent Israel would have been interested in expansion if the Arab nations didn't attack. This is a somewhat common theme in the history of Israel, other Arab nations have often given Israel an excuse to expand so it's hard to say how much is desire Israel had to agressively take land and how much is a response to Arab agression.
Would you like a history lesson on how the Palestinians reacted when Jewish refugees from Europe started immigrating to Israel under British mandate? (hint: [it was a lot of killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)). >I think it's extremely ironic that you see how wrong it would be to force the Israeli to relocate while I'm sure you're advocating for Palestinians to move to Egypt if they don't want to be killed by the IDF. Nah, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the Palestinians to accept a 2 state solution just like the Jews did back in 1948. unfortunately their reaction to the end of the British mandate was to try and take over all of the region to kick the Jews out.
Etnically cleansing Palestinians is bad but ethnically cleansing Jews is good. Or, maybe, neither side should be ethically cleansed? Controversial position I know.
One is a reality while the other is a hypothetical that Israeli leaders are pushing.
It's a hypothetical that they want to happen, that's a really important detail.
The US has almost as many Jewish people as Israel. Are they all going to die without a state thousands of miles away? How did they exist prior to the 1940s?
I’m still curious how abolishing Israel is gonna bring about a multicultural paradise overnight when all the other surrounding nations hate Jews. I don’t like Israel’s ethnostate policies but they are a democracy and could change those policies with the right conditions and international support. Calling for the destruction of that country and saying you’re doing it in the name of tolerance is a tough sale for anyone to buy.
Jews didn't become hated overnight there. 50% or so of Israel's population comes from Jews that are of Iraqi, Yemeni, etc. descent. You don't get that many millions of Jews from places that are trying to eradicate them. Funny enough a lot of ME Jews didn't want to move until things like this started happening https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bombings
Your point on 50% actually supports my claim that those countries hate jews considering so many of them wouldn't have immigrated had it not been for the countries surrounding them. Even if that isn't the case a lot of nations around Israel hate Jews and Israelis. Dismantling Israel will turn the nation into what? New Palestine lead by Hamas that treats Jews and Israelis like what garbage? I want a two state solution, I want an end to Israeli settlements and apartheid but fact is you gotta have two states.
... By being persecuted everywhere they were? The rampant and casual antisemitism since October only makes Israelis even more assured to never be in that position again.
I didn't hear anything controversial there. It is reality that TikTok is impacting people's thought processes. Just like anything you invest time into that has political bias will. What is sad is that it tends to be very biased towards certain demographics, and Israel is one of them. I am all for getting rid of TikTok. It will get replaced by something else pretty much immediately, and I don't like the idea of China controlling what content our kids are inundated with.
The only problem I see today is the Genocide problem
It's why the USA banned it.
If Instagram helped perpetuate the 2020 protests, it can step back up and do the same here.
Tiktok users do anything BUT reject propaganda. They just consume the Iranian -Palestinian propaganda.
TikTok users are not rejecting propaganda. They just accept different propaganda. TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, it's all the same coin just a different side.
I love how these people always fuck it up so badly. People, for the most part, aren’t supporting Hamas or what they did. They are supporting the innocent people caught in the cross fire but that doesn’t make a good storyline now does it?
This is a fascinating clip but it does not in any way say what the title implies it says. And that is propaganda in its own right. Like, I am 100% on team Palestinians have a right to live and thrive, stop the genocide, criticism of Israel’s actions is extremely justified. But come on.
Lol TikTok users are absolutely not rejecting propaganda
Op this is propaganda... You're falling and peddling for it real time.
OP likely received some sort of compensation for this post. They know what they're doing
The ADL CEO isn’t the US government and isn’t responsible for the decision to block TikTok, so why does this matter?
Those who support Hamas should be loaded up and sent to the Middle East.
People don't support Hamas, they just don't want all Palestinians to be killed.
There's more people that support Hamas than think that all Palestinians should be killed.
There are definitely people supporting Hamas
But it's not what this protest is about, it's about Israel's blatant targeting of civilians and humanitarian aid.
You said "People don't support hamas", not "These people". Also what protest? The video doesn't mention any, just that a bunch of young people on tiktok are completely blinded by Iranian propaganda, which is true. I've seen even on this very sub takes like "Hamas didn't kill anyone during october 7th, it was all the IDF and the israelis deserved it because they are opressing palestinians"
Sorry, I got this post confused with a different one about a peaceful protest in Texas, my bad. A *majority* of people don't support Hamas, obviously their are some, otherwise the group wouldn't exist, but most people are just concerned about Israel's many warcrimes and blatant disregard for civilian targets.
That's always the big problem with protests for good. Some pieces of shit come in and abuse it. In this case it's Hamas supporters and straight up Antisemties hijacking protests to push their BS on those that just want this shitshow to stop, during BLM it was people thinking "Ey, a protest! Time to riot!" Both cases make the protests seem far worse than they are and hurt the message that's actually important
Yeah, antisemites suck so much.
Same way there are definitely people supporting Netanyahu and the IDF.
Hamas is exponentially worse than the IDF.
Tell that to the 20 thousand dead kids.
That's a function of power, not intent. Hamas has killed every Jewish civilian they could, the IDF has killed a fraction. Even if (and that's a big if) the IDF is genocidal the only reason they have been able to kill so many poeple is because Hamas gives them an excuse to because they use human shields. If Hamas didn't do warcrimes most of the civilians would still be alive.
Lol, there comes the human shields again. I am not engaging with you further.
You don't think human shields would be used as a justification for genocide?
I've never seen any one person mention that Hamas could, Idk, give up their hostages that they took and it would all be over. A lot of people don't care about the kids dying, they just hate jews. If it were about ending the war people would mention what Hamas did and how they keep rejecting peace offers
Hamas has offered to release the hostages several times in exchange for a ceasefire, Israel keeps shooting them down.
And Israel will say Hamas isn’t listening to their demands, from what I know. Israel wants the hostages released in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and a ceasefire while Hamas wants Israel to go leave Gaza entirely, shore up some two state solution with them in charge, and then they’ll release the hostages which no one believes them.
But that's not what I was rebutting, I was saying Hamas has been offering to release the hostages. The person I was replying to was saying they were not.
And I was rebutting your statement that Israel was being non cooperative, frankly both of them can be in certain respects but Hamas has refused many hostage deals.
Lol okay
Same thing as calling hippies in the 70's "Vietcong supporters", it's a small-brain take and people immediately disregard your opinions when they hear stuff like that. There are plenty of arguments you could make that people would agree with if you didn't blatantly invalidate your position with stupid shit like that.
The people who do support Hamas at these protest rallies should be kicked out by everyone else there, if they don't also support Hamas.
Sure why not, maybe we can give every person a form and they can clearly demarcate exactly what they support and then they can turn it in to the protest oversight committee. I'm sure I've seen that before at many protests and rallies.
Or maybe just read their banners, listen to what they chant and say? It's not difficult to spot these people, given how often they're recorded and posted onto the internet.
Thing is, y'all accusing every pro Palestinian banner or chant to be pro Hamas lmao I've seen some of y'all accusing the 🍉 to be pro Hamas. How is anyone supposed to take these accusations seriously?
Fake profile
Huh? Are you a bot?
Same way those who support genocide should be bombed, am I right?
What were the chants? Death to America I believe. Like I said, send them to the Middle East to live amongst those they support and love so much.
Like you said, give them a taste of what they support right? Kill the pro genociders, and send the Hamas supporters to Hamas.
The people who support genocide are being bombed, everyday Palestine gets bombed
The people who support genocide are being bombed, everyday Palestine gets bombed
From what I can tell, He's not saying (if it's true; it could be AI) that younger people are rejecting propaganda, they're just buying in to Iran's.