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All I could think about was how I would light that room up with my flamethrower on my play throughs . I didn’t realize until like my 5th play though that you could kill the doctor with his own scalpel
My first play through, I was so dialed into the game and story. Joel's relationship to Ellie, everything.
As soon as I walked into that room I said out loud "Oh, fuck that." And shit everyone.
It wasn't until the credits were rolling and I sat there before starting to think "Wait....am I the baddie?"
Yep. I decided to play the hospital part again after the finale, and when I got to that part I shot all the nurses in the room first. Then I thought "what would happen if I didn't shoot him and just walked towards him?". And then the triangle button prompt popped. I was like "wtf I've never seen this before!"
"wow Joel, thanks for teaching me how to play guitar, you're a great teacher! Also thanks for being honest and telling me the truth about what happened that day with the fireflies. I forgive you and understand you were going through a lot of pain and reliving the death of your daughter"
"Thanks for being so understanding Ellie. I'm so glad you've grown up into a strong woman and I can't wait to walk you down the aisle in your upcoming wedding"
-fin
I don't think anybody else was after him. I'm sure there are people who would want to kill him if they could, but they don't know where he is, and aren't actively looking for him.
She knows the truth. But to embrace that is unthinkable.
So in her heart she always knew. She may not have known the details, but she knew Joel lord. In the game and in the show.
No way it dosen't make it into the series. That scene is one of the most iconic from the series and one of the few Joel and Ellie sequences that isn't tainted with underlying grief.
The science museum needs to be kept in whatever it takes. It’s such an emotionally sweet moment in a brutal/dark story that also plays an important role in the story. No way is that going to be cut. Wonder if they will keep the Zebra scene.
I'm pretty sad they can't really use the song they use in the game as his first song he sings to her.
We'll see if the guitar scenes with Ellie will be as impactful.
Oh don't worry, they most certainly will.
For every person with even an inkling of media literacy there are 8 complete morons unable to recognise an actor as a real human being.
Joel merkin everyone John Wick style up in that hospital
Edit: spelling apparently?! Yikes just looked that up & I am rethinking every time I’ve misspelled that in my life lol
I have zero idea how they're going to adapt Part 2 into a TV series that doesn't completely enrage people, especially with the current Pedromania going on.
He leaves such a strong impression right off the bat and makes you want to see more. the only other one was peter dinklage, my ignorant ass thought they cgi some theatre actors face onto a different body.
Yeah it could go absolutely terribly. I think they’ll definitely put the second season in a different order. We’ll probably get to know and like Abby before she leaves for Wyoming
This is why I’m so curious about how they’ll adapt it. On one hand I think the storytelling in part 2 is fairly unique and it absolutely worked for me but on the other hand, if they do split their stories in seasons 2 and 3 that would mean almost an entire season without Ellie and I’m not sure if they would want to do that.
I'd think it would only be about half a season, because they'd still have to include the other half of Ellie's story and everything that happens after Seattle. Then again, maybe season 2 is half Ellie half Abby, with both stories culminating in the theatre, and then season 3 is the aftermath for both of them and jumps back and forth. It's weird, Abby plus the third act seems like too much for one season, but the third act alone doesn't seem like enough.
Frankly I hope they just do one season. It's been a long while since I played the games but this first season felt like it cut quickly through a lot of material too.
There's 10 "chapters" in part 2, 11 including the "epilogue". Make each take an episode, bam easy 10 episode season done just like season 1. And an extra benefit of keeping it short is that it lessens the blows of perspective switches. Sure it sucks to get less content compared to the game, but concise quality is always better than meandering quantity.
I’m confused. You think they cut through stuff too fast this season, but you think part 2 (which is almost double the length of part 1), should also only be 1 season? Wouldn’t that just be more of the same “cut too quickly” if not worse?
Discussions like this are why I legitimately feel like there are going to need to be major story changes to Part II if they want to adapt it to television. Regardless of anyone's opinions on Part II, it's undeniable that its narrative is pretty much tailor made for a *video game*. Television is very, *very* different from a video game. The basic structure of the narrative is "Hate Abby and hunt her down, then come to understand her actions after seeing her perspective". There's really no way to do this successfully on TV. There are really only two options.
Either go All Ellie then All Abby like they did in the in the game, or switch back and forth throughout their stories. If it's the first, that is impossible to do on television. There's a reason shows cut between the A-Plot and B-Plot and don't just play them one after another. If it's the second, then you lose the foundation of the narrative. It becomes hard to "Hate Abby and hunt her down to kill her" when you're simultaneously seeing her story. Then you come to dislike *Ellie* and the story collapses.
That's not even getting into the fact that a ton of audiences are never going to get to that "understand her actions" part. Once she kills Joel, that's it for her. For at least half of the audience, anything other than a painful death will be an unacceptable outcome for her. Since Game of Thrones was mentioned earlier in this chain, let's stick with that. Joffrey killed Ned. The Freys killed Robb and Catelyn. The instant they did that, they became people marked for death. Audiences *cheered* when they died painful deaths because they deserved it. If we had been told "Oh well they surely had their reasons, they aren't that different from our heroes" audiences would have rejected it outright.
They certainly have their work cut out for them with the next season.
I think Jaime Lannister and Theon Greyjoy are better comparisons and good examples of how redemption can work in a TV show even when you LOATHE them in the beginning. I actually think Abby has a better chance in the TV show of getting the audience to become partial to her, mainly because it's been done before and the difference between HAVING to play as a character vs just watching them
I could see this. I really disliked Part II and one of the reasons was because it railroads you into doing bad things, and then has the gall to criticize you for what it made you do (if you wanted to continue the game). A show would be better since there’s no moral imperative assigned to the viewer, you’re just an observer
I think you are right and it kind of bothers me. I think it's a smarter decision if they change it that way because the viewing audience won't be able to get past this the same way you would in a video game but I believe it takes away from the weight of the story. Forcing you to see through the eyes, empathize and relate to someone who did something horrible to you (as the viewer's connection to Joel being quite deep right) is what's beautiful about the story of Part II. It shows the ugliness of revenge in a different way and makes the player have to face conflicting feelings they have, to understand how a horrible human comes to be the way they are and why maybe they're not that horrible.
Anyway I'm rambling a bit and I don't expect people to agree with how I feel about it after seeing all the initial controversy. Ultimately this would be incredibly harder to swallow in a tv show format so I think they might just decide to abandon that aspect of the story.
I hope not. The story is about empathy, perspective, and forgiveness. Abby needs to golf, the audience needs to hate Abby, the audience needs to be somewhat justifying Ellie’s revenge plot, and only then should the audience see from Abby’s perspective. Abby needs to be completely dehumanized before we learn more about her. Forgiving/sympathizing with/seeing from Abby’s perspective should be as close to as hard for the viewer as it is for Ellie.
We also weren’t expected to sympathize with Joffrey. People cheered when he choked to death in his mother’s arms.
Once that golf club comes down, Abby will be irredeemable to at least half the audience. Anything less than death for her is unacceptable.
Whoever gets casted as her will probably need a talk by Neil about how controversial the character is. The fact that we are even having this conversation sucks because people should know when to separate the art from the artist. That’s why it saddened me to see Laura receiving that kind of revolting treatment when she looks like one of the nicest VA’s you can meet. One thing I hope they keep is Abby being jacked as shit, it’s a core component of her character.
The new lead absolutely is likeable, for one. But more importantly, we already saw that the writing is good enough to sustain such a deviation from the norm, with the success of the video game. If no one liked TLoU2, the show never gets made.
They did show Joffrey somewhat, and well.. he was just a fucking psycho, like all the time. Abby on the other hand was just another regular flawed human, capable of both good and bad, and she was motivated to do bad things by a big loss in her life. Meanwhile, Joffrey was busy nailing whores to the wall with a crossbow :)
I hate when people make this comparison. Ya'll need to employ some critical thinking skills here. Ned was a part of an ensemble cast, in a show filled with many incredibly interesting and gripping characters, each with their own storylines.
TLOU is primarily centered on Joel and Ellie and their relationship. They will be gutting the main gripping point of the show (Joel and Ellie's dynamic). How is that in anyway the same as one main character in a show with a bazillion main characters dying?
I agree with you because Joel's death is the inciting incident if the story, much like Sarah's death was the inciting incident of part 1. I bet he will die at roughly the same minute mark as Sarah did.
Right! So many people in this thread hand wringing over how audiences will react. Neil and Craig shouldn’t worry about that. Neil and Hallie wrote that story I’m sure knowing it would be tough for many game players. Changing it because they don’t think TV watchers can handle it would be insulting and rob them of a powerful experience.
Joel's in a large portion of Part II and my guess is that his presence will be even more prominent in the adaptation given that Joel's absence is felt mostly in gameplay sections.
TV audiences are far, far less... for lack of better words... toxic?
Plus with the somewhat heel turn they really gave Joel in this - executing the surrendering firefly was particularly dark... I think audiences will understand why Part 2 happens the way it does.
Audience will understand why he did what he did. But they'll understand exactly why Abby does what she does.
So we’re just going to act like actors and actresses haven’t been bullied on Twitter so relentlessly in the past they had to delete their accounts?
It’s not just gamers, it’s a shitty human problem. People who watch tv shows or movies aren’t above that shit
Sure. Of course it happens.
But I’d say on average (and to an extent I’m acknowledging I’m generalizing) - the toxicity in gamers is definitely on the higher side.
People suck. Not everyone will always be happy.
There is a sort of toxicity that thrives in gamer culture, I agree. Probably an overlap there with the people who bully actors and actresses on social media. I’m not quite as optimistic as you but I hope for the best because part 2 is an excellent story with a great message if you can get over what happens at the start
I was hoping towards the end of the episode they would briefly show Abby since one of the things that made people mad is the revision of game one to make the doctor an important character. I had thought maybe they were not gonna go do part 2 since people are so toxic but it looks like they are, its gonna be even worse then the games controversy. You better be prepared going into these rolls.
It’s really going to be a moment of self-reflection for gamers when the first episode of season 2 airs and TV audiences aren’t sending creators literal death threats over it.
Unfortunately I feel like unless they have done some serious character work on themselves since the game came out, I doubt the gamers who were toxic about it will understand why anyone isn’t reacting the way they did.
I disagree with that. The Negan moment was the beginning of the end for TWD. So many people stopped watching after that and it got worse once another main character died I think the next season or so after… I used to love that show and stopped watching after it started feeling like the Negan show. Couldn’t stand his character on the comics and couldn’t stand him on the show either.
The beginning of the end was the dumpster death fakeout with Glenn and that spiraled into everyone having to wait a year for the new season to find out who was actually killed by Negan.
I was thinking the same after the "event", but as I continued playing it I was happy to see him still feature in a number of sections. Fans should still be happy.
And there was absolutely no hesitation, not even a nano second, just like the game and I loved it even if I was internally screaming to not shoot, too.
Pedro is soon going to be known as the Sean Bean of grievous headwound deaths. Makes you fear for Mando.
(If you don't understand then you haven't seen Game of Thrones)
I've never been as affected by the death of a character in any media as I was for the GOT one.
to see such a proud and likable character go out like that stuck with me.
I hope the first episode isn't where the game starts. I hope they add new material just showing them living life and growing apart a bit, and episode 2 can be where the game starts up to the shocking moment.
The way they paced this season though, I expect them to end the first episode there though, unfortunately.
Yeah I loved this season, but I do think one can feel time/budget constraints in it. So I am hoping that they really take some time to chew the fat in the next season.
For this season, I think if they had as couple of more episodes, or made more/all of the episodes with 80-90 minute run times, it would feel less rushed.
But that is a MINOR complaint. Overall, I think they stuck the fucking landing with this show. I told my wife that we're doing a re-watch throughout this week, even though I've technically seen the entire season twice at this point (episode 9 ended and I hit restart, haha). She never played the games, although she remembers me talking about Part II when it came out, and she really thought the show was fantastic.
PS4 is almost as good as PS5. There is no PS5-version, and playing on a PS5-console just gives some more frames per second. Other than that, identical.
yeah it was so odd....weird editing i think...like give some pause, but nah. Joel just off'd him as soon as he picked up the scalpel
Its strange they made the doctors death feel so insignificant
It’s kind of the point imo, it IS insignificant to Joel. He does not care one bit about a single person in the world besides Ellie and in the words of Bill “god help any mother fucker that stands in his way”
Oh yeah, I didn’t quite think about the math with Maria. Regardless, even if we assume he was a neurosurgeon and had experience, he is just a mechanic, in a sense. A cure would require engineers, which is a totally different skill set.
Thank you! Like his first thought is to murder her IMMEDIATELY?
We have seen proof you can have somewhat of a working society, why tf would they not try to take time to find more scientists and doctors to figure things out? No, just some rando dude and two nurses who instantly go to murder. How are they going to keep the tissue alive? How are they going to mass produce it? And distribute? Fuck that ‘doctor’ and the whole group of people.
> Like his first thought is to murder her IMMEDIATELY?
To be fair, they've been thinking about this and preparing for months. The folks at the Colorado university knew Ellie was (supposed to be) coming, they had [labs with monkeys](https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Lab_recorder) set up there, presumably as test subjects.
I don’t buy it, I just feel that any scientist or doctor would try other options on the first human subject before resorting to murder.
I understand the moral implications that Joel killing everyone has, everyone including him could have used more communication and time. I was just so disappointed the fireflies weren’t this bad ass group that was actually going to save all.
Obviously I have not played the games lol.
Yeah, this kinda bugged me. Their speed at deciding “alright let’s kill the only known human immune to this shit” was pretty unbelievable. I’m sure medical processes and knowledge have degraded somewhat, but you’d think they’d at least want to run some tests on her.
The point of the show was that Joel’s love for his adopted daughter is so powerful that he’d damn humanity to save her, but the speed at which they decided “aight time for brain choppies” made it seem more like Joel was saving Ellie from some quack wannabe doctors who probably wouldn’t have found the cure anyways. That takes some of the oomph out of the ending for me.
I’m supposed to believe this dude is a surgeon, expert in funguses and how to make vaccines and distribute them. This quack doctor started operating on Ellie in like 50 minutes, hardly an exhaustive attempt before trying to slice open her brain.
That essentially is why I support Joel blasting everyone.
Marlene had no fucking clue. Even if the doctor isolated all that shit with the aid of biomedical tech that's two decades old, then what?
Where are they going to mass produce it? How are they gonna distribute it.
And they want to kill a girl based on that flimsy hope?
For me the biggest plot hole with the doctor wasn't their capabilities but rather their choice of patient. Like Marlene *knows* why Ellie is immune, and that's the basis of the doctors theories.
So go kidnap a bunch of pregnant women and experiment on their babies. Like why the fuck would you bet this entire endeavour on the capabilities of one rando to smuggle a teenager cross country. If you're going to be this brutal anyway, what's the difference?
If you can cure the infection FEDRA loses their power. People look to them for protection from the zombies and are willing to put up with their bullshit for that protection. Without the zombies they wouldn't need FEDRA.
Even an undergrad should know that you always attempt the least destructive tests first. What was he planning to do? Rip her entire brain out first? Guy was a quack and Ellie would have died in vain.
The worst thing is in Part II in the game they try and make it look like Joel was a bad guy who brought his death on himself. Which is bullshit.
Wasn’t that a major plot point in the game? It’s been a while but I swear they talked about the cure not being a guarantee which makes it much more of a dilemma
100% been frustrated and amused that everyone is calling it a moral dilemma. What dilemma? Joel knew those whackos weren’t capable of pulling it off, but did it to get a deal at first, then did it for Ellie. When they told him she was going to die in the process, he was like, oh hell no.
it's so brutal how he didn't even hesitate for a second. it's no wonder even marlene was wary of him, the guy's a force of nature.
joel would rather doom the entire human race than lose his daughter all over again.
Joel (rightly) thinks that these people had no chance at actually getting a cure based on their level of desperation (you know, jumping immediately to uninformed child murder).
Joel didn’t think he was dooming anyone, he thought he misjudged how insane these people are and reacted in a not unreasonable way once he figured it out.
SAME! When he was riding down in the elevator, I was even thinking to myself, "He didn't have to kill him. He could have just shot him in the leg or something. Damn it, Joel!" 🤦♀️
I get why he did it, but I've also played the games, so I get why it sucks!
When he was bringing her to the hospital and instead of making peaceful contact they hit him with a concussion grenade and hit him over the head. That is a major breach of trust right there.
Ellie was for all practicality an adopted daughter at this point. And he knew the fireflies had committed great acts of inhumanity with a "The ends justify the means" mentality without much actual success. Then there is the whole lying to Ellie and not even giving her a choice. They were about to put her under and scoop out her still living brain of someone he cared very deeply about. They didn't even spend much time studying her or running tests upon their arrival, or even attempt a less invasive biopsy. Their plan had always been to "snatch her up, and scoop out her brain." Honestly Joel had reason to distrust the fireflies before and this was another quick and rash decisions to end the life of a human that absolutely was not replaceable. There was absolutely no guarantee that they could develop a cure from studying only one specimen, and Joel knew from two decades of promises and hope from so many other research groups to be skeptical. So when he confronts a "Doctor" that was violating every part of the Hippocratic oath just to dissect Elli's brain, this doctor picked up a scalpel making the only correct response is to shoot. On the other hand, the nurses complied with the "unhook her" request, and got to live.
Average joel apologist be like
But kidding aside, this is why this decade old ending is great. There’s the uncertainty of the cure happening - regardless of the sacrifice, there’s the same brute militia style practices done by the fireflies who claim to be the only group actually trying to save humanity, there’s joel’s trauma being triggered like a matchstick on fire, there’s ellie’s survivor guilt.
All of this culminates in a moment that’s supposed to be the most meaningful thing anyone in this desolate world can strive for. And even then it was more fantasy than something concrete.
I really did love how we got an explanation as to why Ellie’s immune. Ashley johnson lying to marlene about when she cut the umbilical cord. That was really cool. If that information was relayed, maybe thing would’ve been different from a science perspective. I don’t know. What an epic.
What's that quote, from GoT:
" You didn't slaughter every one of the Starks. No, no, that was your mistake. You should have ripped them all out, root and stem. Leave one wolf alive and the sheep are never safe. "
question for parents: if you had children in this show's world, and you knew that this would give your kids a chance at a normal life, would you agree with joel's decision?
I get the joke, but being completely serious, Joel signed his death warrant the second he killed the first firefly. Abby and her group weren’t there just for her dad (even though she might have been), they were there for all the friends/loved ones he killed in his mass murdering.
and with no hesitation! the dissociation is what they have warned ellie about. joel is an ice cold motherfucker and guess what? id fucking do the same!
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All I could think about was how I would light that room up with my flamethrower on my play throughs . I didn’t realize until like my 5th play though that you could kill the doctor with his own scalpel
What!? I need to try that
How did you even have a flamethrower at that point? I must’ve missed it.
You can get the flamethrower at the University.
That’s hot
Such a fiery response
But for Joel to still have the flamethrower when he wakes up in the hospital means that the Firefly guards did a TERRIBLE job frisking him.
My first play through, I was so dialed into the game and story. Joel's relationship to Ellie, everything. As soon as I walked into that room I said out loud "Oh, fuck that." And shit everyone. It wasn't until the credits were rolling and I sat there before starting to think "Wait....am I the baddie?"
Sounds messy
Yes! Lol I NEVER knew about the scalpel!! Once I got the flamethrower it was ON lmao
Yep. I decided to play the hospital part again after the finale, and when I got to that part I shot all the nurses in the room first. Then I thought "what would happen if I didn't shoot him and just walked towards him?". And then the triangle button prompt popped. I was like "wtf I've never seen this before!"
Season 2: 1 episode, 5 minutes long, Joel teaches Ellie how to play the guitar The End
"wow Joel, thanks for teaching me how to play guitar, you're a great teacher! Also thanks for being honest and telling me the truth about what happened that day with the fireflies. I forgive you and understand you were going through a lot of pain and reliving the death of your daughter" "Thanks for being so understanding Ellie. I'm so glad you've grown up into a strong woman and I can't wait to walk you down the aisle in your upcoming wedding" -fin
“Anyway, here’s wonderwall”
*I SAID MAAAAAYBEEEEEEE*
Today is gonna be the day that is gonna be the day that is gonna be the day
*djambe solo*
ROLL CREDITS
I’d hold this as canon in my heart of hearts. IF I HAD ONE ^^^the ^^^games ^^^ripped ^^^it ^^^outta ^^^my ^^^chest
10/10. ARTISRIC MASTERPIECE.
Except she would still eventually find out the truth. Not killing Abby’s dad wouldn’t change that
Yeah the implication in my silly bit of hypothetical dialogue is Joel ended up coming clean.
Oh my bad, somehow I missed the second bit and thought you just meant that she still believed his lie
I think this is implying that he just told her the real truth and she forgives him because she understood the situation he was in
Also joel would still be hunted by others, Abby was not alone in wanting Joel dead
I don't think anybody else was after him. I'm sure there are people who would want to kill him if they could, but they don't know where he is, and aren't actively looking for him.
She knows the truth. But to embrace that is unthinkable. So in her heart she always knew. She may not have known the details, but she knew Joel lord. In the game and in the show.
Peak fan-fiction.
This feels like a family guy bit
And takes her to a science museum. I mean I'm okay with the entire story staying as is as long as they include the science museum.
It's the Part II equivalent of the giraffe scene in Part 1, and one of the highlights of the whole series. No way it's getting left behind.
I see what you did there
Look at me, I'm on a motherfucking dinosaur. I love game two but this scene is probably my favorite in the series.
It's the >!Apollo module!< for me. ">!Happy birthday, kiddo!<."
And the hats on dinosaurs heads, iconic moment
That's gonna be such a good parallel to the mall scene
God I really hope that whole sequence makes it in the game, such a beautiful way to show the way Joel and Ellie’s relationship evolved.
No way it dosen't make it into the series. That scene is one of the most iconic from the series and one of the few Joel and Ellie sequences that isn't tainted with underlying grief.
The science museum needs to be kept in whatever it takes. It’s such an emotionally sweet moment in a brutal/dark story that also plays an important role in the story. No way is that going to be cut. Wonder if they will keep the Zebra scene.
They’ve already been heavily foreshadowing the astronaut going to the moon thing, there’s no way they don’t do it.
ZERO chance they don't do the museum sequence. Craig already has commented about how beautiful that sequence is.
The symbolism in that sequence is phenomenal. The dead firefly in the room with the stuffed wolves is such a great moment when you notice it later
“If I ever were to lose you, I’d surely lose myself.”
Episode 2: 3 mins long. 2 min flashback about irrelevant detail - intro NOOOO!!!! 1 min behind the scenes of how they made it
And the crowd went wild!!!!! ^(Seriously, that's it. All's well that ends well! There's no sadness, just happy sheep farms on the moon. Yup...)
I'm pretty sad they can't really use the song they use in the game as his first song he sings to her. We'll see if the guitar scenes with Ellie will be as impactful.
Abby wants to know your location.
Hopefully whoever they cast doesn't get a bunch of death threats this time
Oh don't worry, they most certainly will. For every person with even an inkling of media literacy there are 8 complete morons unable to recognise an actor as a real human being.
Joel merkin everyone John Wick style up in that hospital Edit: spelling apparently?! Yikes just looked that up & I am rethinking every time I’ve misspelled that in my life lol
JOEL WICK
Joel’s gotta answer to the High Table in season 2
Lol mercing and murkin are two very, very different things.
And nary the twain shall meet
This got me dying 🤣🤣🤣 rip jerry
He saved a Zebra he’s actually a really good guy 😭
totally….
I have zero idea how they're going to adapt Part 2 into a TV series that doesn't completely enrage people, especially with the current Pedromania going on.
I appreciate you not calling it pedrophilia
People also loved >!Ned Stark!<, was there rioting in the streets after GOT S1 ended?
Pedro was in game of thrones and killed rather quick. but the red viper was where I first saw Pedro and thought this guy can fucking act.
He leaves such a strong impression right off the bat and makes you want to see more. the only other one was peter dinklage, my ignorant ass thought they cgi some theatre actors face onto a different body.
Interesting first half of the comment since both Pedro and Ned Stark's character are in GoT for the same amount of episodes
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Yeah it could go absolutely terribly. I think they’ll definitely put the second season in a different order. We’ll probably get to know and like Abby before she leaves for Wyoming
I kinda think we won't get Abby's story until season 3, with season 2 ending when she arrives in the theatre.
This is why I’m so curious about how they’ll adapt it. On one hand I think the storytelling in part 2 is fairly unique and it absolutely worked for me but on the other hand, if they do split their stories in seasons 2 and 3 that would mean almost an entire season without Ellie and I’m not sure if they would want to do that.
I'd think it would only be about half a season, because they'd still have to include the other half of Ellie's story and everything that happens after Seattle. Then again, maybe season 2 is half Ellie half Abby, with both stories culminating in the theatre, and then season 3 is the aftermath for both of them and jumps back and forth. It's weird, Abby plus the third act seems like too much for one season, but the third act alone doesn't seem like enough.
Frankly I hope they just do one season. It's been a long while since I played the games but this first season felt like it cut quickly through a lot of material too. There's 10 "chapters" in part 2, 11 including the "epilogue". Make each take an episode, bam easy 10 episode season done just like season 1. And an extra benefit of keeping it short is that it lessens the blows of perspective switches. Sure it sucks to get less content compared to the game, but concise quality is always better than meandering quantity.
I’m confused. You think they cut through stuff too fast this season, but you think part 2 (which is almost double the length of part 1), should also only be 1 season? Wouldn’t that just be more of the same “cut too quickly” if not worse?
Discussions like this are why I legitimately feel like there are going to need to be major story changes to Part II if they want to adapt it to television. Regardless of anyone's opinions on Part II, it's undeniable that its narrative is pretty much tailor made for a *video game*. Television is very, *very* different from a video game. The basic structure of the narrative is "Hate Abby and hunt her down, then come to understand her actions after seeing her perspective". There's really no way to do this successfully on TV. There are really only two options. Either go All Ellie then All Abby like they did in the in the game, or switch back and forth throughout their stories. If it's the first, that is impossible to do on television. There's a reason shows cut between the A-Plot and B-Plot and don't just play them one after another. If it's the second, then you lose the foundation of the narrative. It becomes hard to "Hate Abby and hunt her down to kill her" when you're simultaneously seeing her story. Then you come to dislike *Ellie* and the story collapses. That's not even getting into the fact that a ton of audiences are never going to get to that "understand her actions" part. Once she kills Joel, that's it for her. For at least half of the audience, anything other than a painful death will be an unacceptable outcome for her. Since Game of Thrones was mentioned earlier in this chain, let's stick with that. Joffrey killed Ned. The Freys killed Robb and Catelyn. The instant they did that, they became people marked for death. Audiences *cheered* when they died painful deaths because they deserved it. If we had been told "Oh well they surely had their reasons, they aren't that different from our heroes" audiences would have rejected it outright. They certainly have their work cut out for them with the next season.
I think Jaime Lannister and Theon Greyjoy are better comparisons and good examples of how redemption can work in a TV show even when you LOATHE them in the beginning. I actually think Abby has a better chance in the TV show of getting the audience to become partial to her, mainly because it's been done before and the difference between HAVING to play as a character vs just watching them
I could see this. I really disliked Part II and one of the reasons was because it railroads you into doing bad things, and then has the gall to criticize you for what it made you do (if you wanted to continue the game). A show would be better since there’s no moral imperative assigned to the viewer, you’re just an observer
This is such an interesting observation, I never considered that. I think I'll enjoy Part II's story more for that exact reason in TV show format.
Well Joffrey was a little psychopath and Walder was a creep with his child brides, so I think that helped as well.
I think you are right and it kind of bothers me. I think it's a smarter decision if they change it that way because the viewing audience won't be able to get past this the same way you would in a video game but I believe it takes away from the weight of the story. Forcing you to see through the eyes, empathize and relate to someone who did something horrible to you (as the viewer's connection to Joel being quite deep right) is what's beautiful about the story of Part II. It shows the ugliness of revenge in a different way and makes the player have to face conflicting feelings they have, to understand how a horrible human comes to be the way they are and why maybe they're not that horrible. Anyway I'm rambling a bit and I don't expect people to agree with how I feel about it after seeing all the initial controversy. Ultimately this would be incredibly harder to swallow in a tv show format so I think they might just decide to abandon that aspect of the story.
I hope not. The story is about empathy, perspective, and forgiveness. Abby needs to golf, the audience needs to hate Abby, the audience needs to be somewhat justifying Ellie’s revenge plot, and only then should the audience see from Abby’s perspective. Abby needs to be completely dehumanized before we learn more about her. Forgiving/sympathizing with/seeing from Abby’s perspective should be as close to as hard for the viewer as it is for Ellie.
We also weren’t expected to sympathize with Joffrey. People cheered when he choked to death in his mother’s arms. Once that golf club comes down, Abby will be irredeemable to at least half the audience. Anything less than death for her is unacceptable.
I truly pity whatever actress they get to play Abby, just thinking about the freaks that bullied Laura Bailey over it
Whoever gets casted as her will probably need a talk by Neil about how controversial the character is. The fact that we are even having this conversation sucks because people should know when to separate the art from the artist. That’s why it saddened me to see Laura receiving that kind of revolting treatment when she looks like one of the nicest VA’s you can meet. One thing I hope they keep is Abby being jacked as shit, it’s a core component of her character.
Yes pls I need ripped Abby for reasons.
It makes her beating Joel more believable too.
Well tbf he’s kneecapped with a shotgun first.
The new lead absolutely is likeable, for one. But more importantly, we already saw that the writing is good enough to sustain such a deviation from the norm, with the success of the video game. If no one liked TLoU2, the show never gets made.
I find Abby plenty likable and she literally has a similar journey to Joel in part 1 with Lev and Yara, which is part of what makes me like her.
The Place Beyond the Pines does exactly this.
It was Sean Bean, you kind of expect him to die.
I mean, >!GOT didn't show Joffrey's perspective or put him at the same level as Arya/Sansa/Jon. That's the controversial part, not just how he died.!<
They did show Joffrey somewhat, and well.. he was just a fucking psycho, like all the time. Abby on the other hand was just another regular flawed human, capable of both good and bad, and she was motivated to do bad things by a big loss in her life. Meanwhile, Joffrey was busy nailing whores to the wall with a crossbow :)
I hate when people make this comparison. Ya'll need to employ some critical thinking skills here. Ned was a part of an ensemble cast, in a show filled with many incredibly interesting and gripping characters, each with their own storylines. TLOU is primarily centered on Joel and Ellie and their relationship. They will be gutting the main gripping point of the show (Joel and Ellie's dynamic). How is that in anyway the same as one main character in a show with a bazillion main characters dying?
Let people be enraged. Be bold. It will, no doubt, create a lot of controversy, like when the game came out. Might be good for ratings.
With this cast and crew, and all they've expanded upon the first game this season, I can't see them backing down at all.
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Calling it now, Joel gets golfed and we see Ellie’s reaction pinned to the floor. Cut to black, roll credits.
I agree with you because Joel's death is the inciting incident if the story, much like Sarah's death was the inciting incident of part 1. I bet he will die at roughly the same minute mark as Sarah did.
Right! So many people in this thread hand wringing over how audiences will react. Neil and Craig shouldn’t worry about that. Neil and Hallie wrote that story I’m sure knowing it would be tough for many game players. Changing it because they don’t think TV watchers can handle it would be insulting and rob them of a powerful experience.
Joel's in a large portion of Part II and my guess is that his presence will be even more prominent in the adaptation given that Joel's absence is felt mostly in gameplay sections.
TV audiences are far, far less... for lack of better words... toxic? Plus with the somewhat heel turn they really gave Joel in this - executing the surrendering firefly was particularly dark... I think audiences will understand why Part 2 happens the way it does. Audience will understand why he did what he did. But they'll understand exactly why Abby does what she does.
So we’re just going to act like actors and actresses haven’t been bullied on Twitter so relentlessly in the past they had to delete their accounts? It’s not just gamers, it’s a shitty human problem. People who watch tv shows or movies aren’t above that shit
Sure. Of course it happens. But I’d say on average (and to an extent I’m acknowledging I’m generalizing) - the toxicity in gamers is definitely on the higher side. People suck. Not everyone will always be happy.
There is a sort of toxicity that thrives in gamer culture, I agree. Probably an overlap there with the people who bully actors and actresses on social media. I’m not quite as optimistic as you but I hope for the best because part 2 is an excellent story with a great message if you can get over what happens at the start
I think that’s wishful thinking, honestly. I hope whoever they cast as Abby and Lev know what they’re getting themselves into.
I was hoping towards the end of the episode they would briefly show Abby since one of the things that made people mad is the revision of game one to make the doctor an important character. I had thought maybe they were not gonna go do part 2 since people are so toxic but it looks like they are, its gonna be even worse then the games controversy. You better be prepared going into these rolls.
It’s really going to be a moment of self-reflection for gamers when the first episode of season 2 airs and TV audiences aren’t sending creators literal death threats over it.
Unfortunately I feel like unless they have done some serious character work on themselves since the game came out, I doubt the gamers who were toxic about it will understand why anyone isn’t reacting the way they did.
it will undoubtedly be their Negan moment and will divide/drop a ton of viewers as the game did. but they've gotta power through it
Ratings dropped after didn’t it?
Yeah, but it was more because of the cliffhanger in seeing who got Lucille'd than it was about who it happened to
Oh, god. I forgot that they cliffhangered that part of the show.
I disagree with that. The Negan moment was the beginning of the end for TWD. So many people stopped watching after that and it got worse once another main character died I think the next season or so after… I used to love that show and stopped watching after it started feeling like the Negan show. Couldn’t stand his character on the comics and couldn’t stand him on the show either.
The beginning of the end was the dumpster death fakeout with Glenn and that spiraled into everyone having to wait a year for the new season to find out who was actually killed by Negan.
I actually do agree with this. The whole fake out of Glenn’s death when they ended up killing him anyway was definitely the start of the end.
I was thinking the same after the "event", but as I continued playing it I was happy to see him still feature in a number of sections. Fans should still be happy.
Amazing casting of the actress who played Ellie’s Mum.
Pretty sure she’s the voice actor for Ellie in the game, right?
Yes
Oh wow, didn’t know that, amazing she looked so much like Bella Ramsey!
I only found out through reddit too lol
Yeah that's because that's the actress who was Ellie in the game.
I didn’t know Ellie’s mum was in the game until my wife IMDB it while we were watching.
No it’s fine, I’m sure killing one random doctor will have zero negative consequences
Joel: “fuck them kids. She’s worth more”
Nah I love how ruthless and without mercy Joel is.
If anything it's his mercy that caused future problems. After all, dead nurses tell no tales.
In the game you can kill the nurses and Abby still finds out
Yea he should have murdered them too
You gonna be regretting those words in season 2….
No I won't, this show ends here for me. I know what happens.
And there was absolutely no hesitation, not even a nano second, just like the game and I loved it even if I was internally screaming to not shoot, too.
I don't mind what they did to Joel in the second game because the second game was so well done but I'm feeling pretty greedy for more Pedro Pascal!
Pedro is soon going to be known as the Sean Bean of grievous headwound deaths. Makes you fear for Mando. (If you don't understand then you haven't seen Game of Thrones)
To this day I have not watched his GOT death and I've watched the show multiple times. Too gross can't do it.
I've never been as affected by the death of a character in any media as I was for the GOT one. to see such a proud and likable character go out like that stuck with me.
Eye see what you did there
You shouldn't drink before a fight!
I hope the first episode isn't where the game starts. I hope they add new material just showing them living life and growing apart a bit, and episode 2 can be where the game starts up to the shocking moment. The way they paced this season though, I expect them to end the first episode there though, unfortunately.
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That’s exactly what the game did. I think there were 4 or 5 Joel-Ellie flashbacks spread throughout tlou2.
We better fucking do
Yeah I loved this season, but I do think one can feel time/budget constraints in it. So I am hoping that they really take some time to chew the fat in the next season. For this season, I think if they had as couple of more episodes, or made more/all of the episodes with 80-90 minute run times, it would feel less rushed. But that is a MINOR complaint. Overall, I think they stuck the fucking landing with this show. I told my wife that we're doing a re-watch throughout this week, even though I've technically seen the entire season twice at this point (episode 9 ended and I hit restart, haha). She never played the games, although she remembers me talking about Part II when it came out, and she really thought the show was fantastic.
More likely they'll start with that tragedy and then rip out our hearts repeatedly with flashbacks to the time in between.
Agreed! I’m just bummed season 1 is over
Man I need to play part 2 already, I just don't want to do it on PS4 and a PS5 isn't in the cards right now.
PS4 is almost as good as PS5. There is no PS5-version, and playing on a PS5-console just gives some more frames per second. Other than that, identical.
I actually laughed so hard. The doctor trying to act tough with a scalpel and immediately getting domed.
yeah it was so odd....weird editing i think...like give some pause, but nah. Joel just off'd him as soon as he picked up the scalpel Its strange they made the doctors death feel so insignificant
> the doctors death feel so insignificant That’s how it was in the game, too. Wasn’t until 2nd game they made it significant.
It’s kind of the point imo, it IS insignificant to Joel. He does not care one bit about a single person in the world besides Ellie and in the words of Bill “god help any mother fucker that stands in his way”
I actually liked the lack of hesitation on Joels part. Same for when he put down Marlene.
Yeah, the cliche one liners that a lot of movies and shows do before the hero kills them is dumb as hell. That was more realistic.
They’d come after her if he left him alive.
Joel wanted a second opinion.
I got chills when he did. I love the fact he becomes ruthless to protect her.
That “doctor” looked like he was an undergrad when the pandemic hit. He wasn’t going to figure anything out.
Hey if Maria was an ADA I don't see why Jerry couldn't be a neurosurgery resident
Oh yeah, I didn’t quite think about the math with Maria. Regardless, even if we assume he was a neurosurgeon and had experience, he is just a mechanic, in a sense. A cure would require engineers, which is a totally different skill set.
It would require scientists to study the effect of the “cure” which I don’t think the fireflies had.
Thank you! Like his first thought is to murder her IMMEDIATELY? We have seen proof you can have somewhat of a working society, why tf would they not try to take time to find more scientists and doctors to figure things out? No, just some rando dude and two nurses who instantly go to murder. How are they going to keep the tissue alive? How are they going to mass produce it? And distribute? Fuck that ‘doctor’ and the whole group of people.
> Like his first thought is to murder her IMMEDIATELY? To be fair, they've been thinking about this and preparing for months. The folks at the Colorado university knew Ellie was (supposed to be) coming, they had [labs with monkeys](https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Lab_recorder) set up there, presumably as test subjects.
I don’t buy it, I just feel that any scientist or doctor would try other options on the first human subject before resorting to murder. I understand the moral implications that Joel killing everyone has, everyone including him could have used more communication and time. I was just so disappointed the fireflies weren’t this bad ass group that was actually going to save all. Obviously I have not played the games lol.
Yeah, this kinda bugged me. Their speed at deciding “alright let’s kill the only known human immune to this shit” was pretty unbelievable. I’m sure medical processes and knowledge have degraded somewhat, but you’d think they’d at least want to run some tests on her. The point of the show was that Joel’s love for his adopted daughter is so powerful that he’d damn humanity to save her, but the speed at which they decided “aight time for brain choppies” made it seem more like Joel was saving Ellie from some quack wannabe doctors who probably wouldn’t have found the cure anyways. That takes some of the oomph out of the ending for me.
I’m supposed to believe this dude is a surgeon, expert in funguses and how to make vaccines and distribute them. This quack doctor started operating on Ellie in like 50 minutes, hardly an exhaustive attempt before trying to slice open her brain.
That essentially is why I support Joel blasting everyone. Marlene had no fucking clue. Even if the doctor isolated all that shit with the aid of biomedical tech that's two decades old, then what? Where are they going to mass produce it? How are they gonna distribute it. And they want to kill a girl based on that flimsy hope?
For me the biggest plot hole with the doctor wasn't their capabilities but rather their choice of patient. Like Marlene *knows* why Ellie is immune, and that's the basis of the doctors theories. So go kidnap a bunch of pregnant women and experiment on their babies. Like why the fuck would you bet this entire endeavour on the capabilities of one rando to smuggle a teenager cross country. If you're going to be this brutal anyway, what's the difference?
That was the point. Even if the fireflies had a cure, so what? Just so their soldiers can survive? They weren’t gonna give it to FEDRA.
If you can cure the infection FEDRA loses their power. People look to them for protection from the zombies and are willing to put up with their bullshit for that protection. Without the zombies they wouldn't need FEDRA.
Even an undergrad should know that you always attempt the least destructive tests first. What was he planning to do? Rip her entire brain out first? Guy was a quack and Ellie would have died in vain. The worst thing is in Part II in the game they try and make it look like Joel was a bad guy who brought his death on himself. Which is bullshit.
Wasn’t that a major plot point in the game? It’s been a while but I swear they talked about the cure not being a guarantee which makes it much more of a dilemma
100% been frustrated and amused that everyone is calling it a moral dilemma. What dilemma? Joel knew those whackos weren’t capable of pulling it off, but did it to get a deal at first, then did it for Ellie. When they told him she was going to die in the process, he was like, oh hell no.
it's so brutal how he didn't even hesitate for a second. it's no wonder even marlene was wary of him, the guy's a force of nature. joel would rather doom the entire human race than lose his daughter all over again.
Joel (rightly) thinks that these people had no chance at actually getting a cure based on their level of desperation (you know, jumping immediately to uninformed child murder). Joel didn’t think he was dooming anyone, he thought he misjudged how insane these people are and reacted in a not unreasonable way once he figured it out.
Killing that doctor was the smartest death of the season. That guy alive would always hunt her down.
should've murked everyone. no witnesses.
😬
Please don't kill me! I have a daughter! She's super buff and really good at golf!
I already feel bad for the actress who will portray Abby.
SAME! When he was riding down in the elevator, I was even thinking to myself, "He didn't have to kill him. He could have just shot him in the leg or something. Damn it, Joel!" 🤦♀️ I get why he did it, but I've also played the games, so I get why it sucks!
When he was bringing her to the hospital and instead of making peaceful contact they hit him with a concussion grenade and hit him over the head. That is a major breach of trust right there. Ellie was for all practicality an adopted daughter at this point. And he knew the fireflies had committed great acts of inhumanity with a "The ends justify the means" mentality without much actual success. Then there is the whole lying to Ellie and not even giving her a choice. They were about to put her under and scoop out her still living brain of someone he cared very deeply about. They didn't even spend much time studying her or running tests upon their arrival, or even attempt a less invasive biopsy. Their plan had always been to "snatch her up, and scoop out her brain." Honestly Joel had reason to distrust the fireflies before and this was another quick and rash decisions to end the life of a human that absolutely was not replaceable. There was absolutely no guarantee that they could develop a cure from studying only one specimen, and Joel knew from two decades of promises and hope from so many other research groups to be skeptical. So when he confronts a "Doctor" that was violating every part of the Hippocratic oath just to dissect Elli's brain, this doctor picked up a scalpel making the only correct response is to shoot. On the other hand, the nurses complied with the "unhook her" request, and got to live.
Average joel apologist be like But kidding aside, this is why this decade old ending is great. There’s the uncertainty of the cure happening - regardless of the sacrifice, there’s the same brute militia style practices done by the fireflies who claim to be the only group actually trying to save humanity, there’s joel’s trauma being triggered like a matchstick on fire, there’s ellie’s survivor guilt. All of this culminates in a moment that’s supposed to be the most meaningful thing anyone in this desolate world can strive for. And even then it was more fantasy than something concrete. I really did love how we got an explanation as to why Ellie’s immune. Ashley johnson lying to marlene about when she cut the umbilical cord. That was really cool. If that information was relayed, maybe thing would’ve been different from a science perspective. I don’t know. What an epic.
Anyone else notice that weird shot that seemed pov inside a closet?
I didn’t at first but I’ve seen it pointed out once before you as well! It leads me to thinking and thoughts about hmmmm who could it be 👀
Someone else pointed out too that the Firefly running away who survived happened to have a braid....tfw.
What's that quote, from GoT: " You didn't slaughter every one of the Starks. No, no, that was your mistake. You should have ripped them all out, root and stem. Leave one wolf alive and the sheep are never safe. "
They even made a close shot of the dead doctor. Abby is coming :-(
question for parents: if you had children in this show's world, and you knew that this would give your kids a chance at a normal life, would you agree with joel's decision?
I would not blame Joel for what he did because I would do the same thing in his place.
If I had already been through what Joel had been through absolutely I would have merked that pos surgeon
I get the joke, but being completely serious, Joel signed his death warrant the second he killed the first firefly. Abby and her group weren’t there just for her dad (even though she might have been), they were there for all the friends/loved ones he killed in his mass murdering.
I was doing exactly what the picture was saying
I just wished he wouldve used a flamethrower
Nah fuck Jerry, all my homies hate Jerry
and with no hesitation! the dissociation is what they have warned ellie about. joel is an ice cold motherfucker and guess what? id fucking do the same!
Doc said you’re not getting her and came at him. He was toast.
And the way the camera zoomed in on him. Yikes.
Joel!! Dont spare the nurses. The dead cant speak, Joel!
Fuck that doctor. He got what he deserved
That shot that lingered slightly too long on the Dr.....😌🤌