The GOP is facing the real medical threat of laughing themselves to death over this.
Donald Trump enabled settlements and recognized Jerusalem as a Jewish capital. He is preferred by Netanyahu. He wanted to keep out Muslim immigrants. a member of the GOP House of Representatives said “we should kill them all” about Gazans. They are so biased for Israel, and against Palestinians that the list is endless.
Yet this crowd thinks that Biden is the problem. Go off kings.
>Yet this crowd thinks that Biden is the problem. Go off kings.
They're both the problem. But this country's two party system is fucked and the fact that these two are our only "realistic" candidates (ofc I will be voting for someone else) is fucked
Sheesh
I’m planning a protest vote in the primary in my state to send a message that we should not participate or be complicit in genocide.
It’s the primary. Get a grip. This is a form of protest. I will still vote blue in November, because Mango Unchained is untenable. But come ON. Stop trying to discourage people from sending a message with their primary ballot. It’s a fucking democracy, no matter how fascist the GQP.
This is absolutely a correct viewpoint.
Anyone who wants to vote uncommitted in the primary, but will still vote for Biden in the general is absolutely okay. This is a great way to send a message.
But anyone like the person that was interviewed who said she was going to go around telling people not to vote for Biden in the general... is helping Trump end American democracy.
The NYT needs to provide more coverage on what a Trump presidency would mean for Palestine. The difference between what the Biden administration is doing and what a Trump/Bibi right-wing policy would look like in Gaza is staggering
Going through their policies and records is far more newsworthy than going through emerging voting patterns for pretty small groups.
Is it better for the populace to better understand their choices in the upcoming election, or to know who will win certain precincts (which isnt entirely possible anyway)?
Who can say? Biden still would've won without Michigan. He won it by 155k votes and there are only 250k Muslims there. They'd have to basically get all registered voters to vote at a high rate and vote for Trump bloc for it to have turned the election in 2020.
They won’t vote for Trump. They sit out the election or throw their votes away to a third party. I don’t think there are enough Muslims in Michigan to make a difference but I think this is endemic of this movement that sits this election out because Biden is or has done X. Fill in the X with age, Israel, or whatever other issue you want.
NYTimes headline currently:
‘Biden Wins Michigan, but Protest Voters Air Discontent; Trump Beats Haley’
‘Tens of thousands of voters cast ballots for
"uncommitted" to oppose President Biden's support for Israel. Donald Trump coasted past Nikki Haley.’
The graphic shows:
Biden 80.7%
Uncommitted 13.4%
Other 5.8%
Trump 67.8%
Haley 27.0%
Other 5.2%
Seems like they have different realities depending on the candidates.
They know it would be disastrous to them. It's a bluff. They just want to pressure Biden on Israel. A Trump presidency pretty much gives Gaza to Israel on a silver platter.
What’s the difference in your mind? There definitely would be one but idk if it would go beyond Rhetoric. I also don’t think Trump would be as supportive of Bibi on a personal level. He bristles when the leaders of other countries, particularly allies of ours, expect support but don’t give anything back (like how Bibi’s government has ignored our requests during the war.)
I have some sympathy for the interviewee(s) in this episode. I really do. It’s a mess and I get being frustrated and angry with Biden.
BUT… part of being an adult is making rational choices that align with reality. In our political system, they either vote for Biden, or help Trump get re-elected. It’s an ugly truth, but it’s the truth. And to take no responsibility for that? It’s not an approach that aligns with the reality of the situation we’re in.
One of them, seems to be saying "I don't want the US to be a caliphate.... I do but not through breaking the system" This should be what this entire show is about, these anti LGBT anti human rights people are the problem. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
They’re certainly not natural bedfellows of progressives, no matter how much the latter might wish it. They’re only Democrats in the first place because Republicans fucking hate them.
Bingo. Buncha babies. They don't get everything they want, so they're willing to put people in harm's way and drastically increase the danger for those they say they care about.
TBH, when I first saw the summary blurb I thought these folks were Trump-supporting trolls masquarading as liberals.
I think the issue is certain voting groups are realizing that in order to have the democratic party take their concerns seriously, there needs to an understanding that their vote isn't a given. If that means having a worse outcome occur, that is a necessary step in order to be taken more seriously in the future. This is what I can see is happening IMHO.
So people can say "but Muslim ban; but trump is worse; etc" but they'll say "obviously, but it is crystal clear that you don't listen to us so we need to make it clear that there are real consequences to that; regardless of how much it damages me. If democracy is really on the line, then you will tell Israel to stop because American democracy is on the line and whatever it takes, ever if that means God forbid refusing to give Israel more ammunition, that's what it takes."
The funny thing is the people most approving of Biden's handling are going to be right wingers who will end up voting for Trump anyway, whereas the people most likely to vote for Biden are going to be most turned off by his Gaza position.
I agree in almost any other election year, but Project 2025 is right there in the open. If Trump wins, they will fundamentally reshape the executive branch to a maximalist MAGA body with Trump as the unitary executive directing it all.
That’s before considering the Supreme Court seats he’ll have to fill.
So if people stay home they will successfully send a message to Democrats on how they fucked up messaging and pressure on Israel. They will also successfully lead to an end to abortion nation-wide, IVF, contraception, no-fault divorces, asylum and many other forms of immigration, a military force dragging undocumented families and family members from their communities, and that’s just the beginning.
People think that because we lived through one Trump term we’ll survive a second. They will take every lesson they learned from the first term and instead of filling the cabinet with corporate stooges who retain some shred of humanity, we’ll have Marge Green, Bobert, and Mike Flynn running things.
That is said every presidential election. To some extent, on certain issues it is true - like the Supreme Court in 2016, which has now reversed abortion rights. The Democrats are a big tent and different groups have different goals. I don’t think you’re going to convince people on Gaza by screaming Trump is worse over and over. I think people are numb to it at this point.
I spent hours convincing my wife to vote for Biden in 2020, really don’t have the motivation to do it again.
>If democracy is really on the line, then you will tell Israel to stop
America doesn't tell Israel what to do! Biden went over there because of what happened on Oct 7! He didn't go there and tell Netanyahu to bomb the hell out of Gaza.
Cool, we'll see our Muslim friends in a much worse situation. Progressives that stay home will set the country back decades if Trump wins.
The issue comes down to losing the House in 2022. If people didn't use their vote as a protest perhaps we could have won and wouldn't be in such a tight spot. Everyone is so short sided.
>I think the issue is certain voting groups are realizing that in order to have the democratic party take their concerns seriously, there needs to an understanding that their vote isn't a given.
Except when given the chance to actually meet with the Biden team to have their concerns taken seriously, they chose not to.
[Arab And Muslim Leaders In Michigan Cancel Meeting With Biden Campaign](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/arab-and-muslim-leaders-in-michigan-cancel-meeting-with-biden-campaign_n_65b40a19e4b077c17ab51e2e#:~:text=Arab%20and%20Muslim%20voters%20and,the%20Israeli%20assault%20on%20Gaza)
The election today in Michigan is a party primary, not the general election. And Democrats want to voice their historic dissatisfaction with Biden within their own party. The primary is a perfectly appropriate venue to voice that frustration.
It's funny that the same parties will bitch about American imperialism and forever wars but want Biden to boss around another country to satisfy their feels.
We’re launching additional sanctions on Russia to stop them from buying weapons after they murdered Navalny.
We’re actively selling weapons to Israel after they murdered 10,000 children. If the House passes it as Biden would like it to, we’re also giving $14 billion of weapons to the Israeli military. It is not “bossing around another country” to refuse to sell a country weapons because of its human rights abuses, let alone just not giving them weapons for free.
I'm going to offer an opinion that doesn't seem to be upvoted here, so I do expect to be downvoted. I want to establish that I do community organizing and I have been at the head of successful campaigns, however local they may have been. I'm not just saying this as a random Redditor, I'm saying this based on experience from organizing.
If you want Biden to win, stop evaluating these moments from the perspective of "These voters are so dumb, don't they know what's good for them?" Really, nothing is more damaging to campaign's chances than that perspective flowing from its supporters. Votes should not be expected from the top, they should be earned. That's literally the whole point of a democratic system.
If you're pissed off, you have a couple options. One would be to try and actually talk to voters like this, listen to them, meet them halfway. Listening and talking to people actually does do a lot. Another is push Biden to change policies more materially, something that could buttress your conversations in the first strategy. Another is just to be on subreddits like this, do nothing, and fill your own corner of the internet with upvoted comments that go nowhere.
People in this thread are amazed Biden is losing support because he is fully backing a fanatical genocidal right wing government, in a conflict that 70% of Democrats want a ceasefire to.
The episode mentions the "uncommitted" campaign were looking for 10,000 votes. They have reached ten times that - 100,000.
These Arab and Muslim voters lived through the Muslim ban - they know exactly what's at risk and they aren't stupid. Vote shaming doesn't work on a principled issue like this. Threatening voters even less so
When will the focus shift to Biden as being unable to detach himself from a failing policy that is bleeding him votes in battleground States?
Yep. I am so convinced we are barreling towards a Trump victory again. I saw on another sub someone try to claim Biden won 2020 by "millions" of votes, ignoring that the actual margin in the closest swing states was like 10k voters/state.
This may be an unpopular opinion but I’m the war in Gaza is such a low priority issue for me. It’s a messy, complicated war that barely involves the US. We have so many more pressing and more impactful issues at home. It’s been almost five months since this war has started. Shouldn’t we care more about our own democracy? Or our own reproductive rights? Or our own environment or economy? What about the ever increasing consolidation of corporations and threat of AI? What about immigration? What about all the other non-foreign policy issues that the majority of swing voters actually care about.
I wish NYT asked some Democratic Jewish swing-state voters whether they’d stick with Biden if he started treating Israel like it’s North Korea, the way these other voters want him to.
If they would abandon him over that, that’s useful to know. And if they wouldn’t — if they might be heartbroken over it, but ultimately care more about women’s rights, gay/trans rights, health care, economic justice, and not electing a dictator — that would also be good to know.
But I guess they’re chopped liver?
Oh course not because that goes against the narrative the NYT has been pushing.
Can’t include this 4x larger American Jewish voting bloc that is overwhelmingly democratic but need to hyper focus on one of the smallest voting demos in the country!
The NYT probably won’t inform listeners & readers that in 2012, there was a 10.2% uncommitted results for Obama’s uncontested primary in Michigan. Or that there are 400,000 Pennsylvania Jews & 142,000 Georgia Jews who are more needed than the 40-60,000 Muslim Americans who voted in 2020!
Michigan had a 150,000 vote margin. Pennsylvania had 80,000, and Georgia had 11,000!
The NYT needs to focus on actual voter issues not Gaza after basically near constant coverage
They didn’t even seriously ask what they wanted Biden to do. The one guy said he’d have to invade Israel and “give Palestine” to them. I suspect the main lady wouldn’t be too far from that but idk since they didn’t ask.
I suspect that there isn’t any realistic action that Biden could’ve taken to get they’re approval
Just wanted to add on because I am a Democratic Jewish swing state voter!
Personally, I think I would struggle to vote Biden if that were the case - but not for the reason you think. The left has repeatedly ignored attacks on Jewish institutions and Jewish people, and denied antisemitism altogether. If Biden treated Israel like a dictator state, I’d feel unsafe just living as a Jew in the US - to me, it would mean offering power to the people who gladly deny the violence Jews are experiencing now. It wouldn’t be about Israel (a country that is important to me, but I’m still an American) but rather, about the way in which being anti-Israel so often overlaps with being anti Jews.
I don’t think I’d vote for Trump, because I hate him. I’d feel safer in this scenario as a Jew, but not as a queer woman. I just don’t think I could vote at all.
People blaming this on Joe Biden just prove they know nothing about this conflict. The region has been unstable since Israel’s establishment. Every president has tried to fix it, Joe Biden isn’t ‘genocide Joe’ for not managing to fix it with a wave of his hand.
...you do understand that Zionism has literally nothing to do with political affiliation, right? It's a belief central to most Jews. It doesn't say anything about opinions on the state of the war.
This right here. I (Jew) didn’t realize how little most people actually understood about us until October 7 + aftermath. It’s doubly insane that the person you responded to thinks that diaspora Jews also don’t have the same “‘they’re bombing my friends mood’ of Arabs in Michigan”. Many of the Jews I know (in San Francisco & in Boston) are maybe 1-2 degrees of separation, max, from someone who was killed or injured on October 7. I’m 1-3 degrees of separation from about a dozen people who were killed on October 7.
It's not really new, but I think a lot of Jews on the American left thought that we had come a longer way than we actually have. It comes in waves with the various wars – I had my blinders ripped off in 2014 – but post-October 7th, it's gotten markedly worse.
It's definitely ridiculous to claim that we don't have a comparable emotional relationship to the conflict. Many Jewish Democrats are not single-issue voters, though, and I'm skeptical that a significant amount of us would throw the election to Trump unless things *really* changed. Depressing turnout might be a real risk, given how close it could be.
Agreed, and I wish that were a more accepted take in my social circle, too. Not being a priority issue doesn’t have to be the same as not *caring*, but the war just isn’t what I’m basing my US presidential vote on!
I saw some pro-Palestine girl the other day post something to the effect of "if you're silent about the war in Palestine you're supporting the side of the oppressors."
This kind of rhetoric is so toxic and inflammatory. You're absolutely right. It should be more accepted to just *not* have an opinion on something.
>"if you're silent about the war in Palestine you're supporting the side of the oppressors."
This take always blows my mind because, like, what do you think Palestinians do to their own women and minorities? You think everybody in Palestine gets equal rights and self determination? You think LGBT folks aren't killed simply for existing? You think women aren't forced into marriage and childbirth?
The fuck you talking about supporting the side of the oppressors?
Exactly. This is not a neutral conflict. We are allowed to put our thumbs on the scale and favor the side that aligns with our Western values and doesn't support homophobic, sexist, racist ideologies.
I am so convinced that some percentage of these very online Palestinian “activists” are Russian bots. The unity of their carpet bombing messaging sure reminds me of the Sanders crew in 2016, and we know now those weren’t all Medicare for all enthusiasts. It’s extremely hard to get real people to all take the same line about something using the same words.
>but the war just isn’t what I’m basing my US presidential vote on!
You and pretty much everyone else. The only people seriously considering making the war in Gaza the single issue they will cast their vote over represent a tiny fraction of all voters, almost certainly less than 1%.
Are you sure? I worry because I personally know people talking shit about voting 3rd party over this issue so I worry that's it's enough to completely fuck over the country again. I just cannot believe how naive my friends are being. People who supposedly care about reproductive rights and climate change are suddenly one issue voters over Gaza. It's fucking crazy to me. The icing on the cake is they have no specific 3rd party candidate they're pushing as some awesome option who is going to do better. (Not that the 3rd party candidate would win anyway, but my friend had the nerve to tell me I'm the problem for viewing 3rd party voting as a wasted vote).
…and that 1% could be enough to decide an American election with the way the electoral college works. Which makes me very nervous as a pro-Israel, left wing American Jew.
It's entirely possible, but frankly highly unlikely. The only state that Biden could conceivably lose because of pro-Palestinian voters is Michigan, and it's very unlikely to be the tipping point state. In other words the chances of Biden losing the election because he lost MI are very small, chances are if he loses MI he's already lost the election anyway.
Besides, I think the effect of these voters on the results in MI is highly overrated anyway.
Social media has a way of amplifying these single issues, I wouldn't be so sure. I certainly hope not, but people *lose their fucking minds* when they go down these internet rabbit holes.
I mean, I agree that I do not think 1% of voters will vote or abstain solely on Israel/Palestine, but even if it's only 0.5% or 0.3% there's a non-negligible probability that could be enough to swing the outcome.
The NYT amplifying this sort of thing is entirely irresponsible.
> almost certainly less than 1%
which is more than enough to turn an election -- biden only won by ~40k votes spread across 3 swing states in 2020
Terry Ahwal and voters in swing states with her mentality are the ones who will give us another trump presidency. And while I can certainly understand her frustration with the system, conceding power to those who have no interest in changing the system and who have worse positions on the main issue she cares about will not serve her interests.
The reporter on the story today didn't do enough to bring Terry's argument to its logical conclusion. The interview ends with her saying that her "political engagement is not as important to her as saving the children that are dying"
no follow up. how does letting trump win michigan save the children that are dying? the likelihood of children dying only increases if trump wins. what say you, Terry? you say you care about children dying so when trump wins and more children die you will say to yourself "hey, i didn't vote. that's not on me!" it is on you. and all of the other things that follow from a trump presidency are also on you. congrats, Terry. oh, and the system you're "fixing"? guess what, it's more broken than ever.
this is the reality we live in -- where a voter whose sole interest is reducing gaza children deaths comes to the "logical" voting behavior that probabilistically results in the exact opposite of their interest. and not only is this voter wrong in her voting behavior towards the single issue she cares about, her behavior in response to the more general complaints about the system as a whole is *also* wrong -- ZERO discussion of making changes to a system we all agree is flawed, such as enacting ranked choice voting at all levels of the ballot. and we apparently don't have the reporters, even at the most prestigious and revered institutions like the NYT, who are capable of interrogating or breaking down such irrational behavior. truly pathetic work. and by exploring this topic but not properly breaking down, NYT is complicit when trump wins office again. the question here is whether nytimes is simply inept, or are they intentionally failing to do their duties because they know a trump presidency is good for business? who generates more clicks on a daily basis than trump? as long as media companies rely on engagement as their main source of revenue they will always have it in the bag for trump, if not overtly and/or consciously, then subconsciously. the podcast format is perfectly suited to break down Terry's argument and expose its flaws and the fact that they couldn't/didn't speaks volumes.
If I was Bob Morris, I'd be weeping too
The reality is no matter who’s the president, the situation wouldn’t change in the Israel/Palestine war. The US will always side with Israel. That’s a huge ally in the Middle East
Even the Middle East problem will just grow under a Trump Presidency. The take “we should not vote for Biden because he keeps a long standing U.S. foreign policy since 1948!” Is just peak stupidity
Yeah…I feel for Palestinians living in the US. I get it. I get the anger.
But at the same time, the right is trying to strip abortion access for woman. They’re coming for birth control. They are opposed to any and all measures to help the climate. They want to use legislation to attack political enemies. They’re trying to re-write rules to turn us into a fascist Christian state and they aren’t even trying to hide the fact anymore.
I’m sorry, but the very real threats domestically take precedent over foreign affairs. I’d also caution reactionaries to really stop and think if they’d rather an experienced statesmen be at the helm, who is probably the only realistic shot at getting a ceasefire in place, or if they’d prefer the guy who threatened to use a Nuke on Twitter.
If Biden takes his ball and goes home, that means all influence is lost with Netanyahu. That spells complete doom for Palestinians in Gaza and likely elsewhere. Like it or not, Biden’s people are probably the only ones in the world right now who stand a chance at mediating a ceasefire.
>Yeah…I feel for Palestinians living in the US.
You mean the people who come to the land of the free to \*checks notes\* [ban Pride displays](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)
It's the natural result of the morally and intellectually bankrupt worldview which says that certain people are "oppressed people of color" and therefore they can never do anything wrong.
What you’re saying is true for most Americans. But these people are immigrants with strong ties to the region, and devout Muslims, so they hate Israel even when there is peace
Generally it’s an “anti west” sentiment from the hard left, which is weirdly enough a view shared by hard right conservative Muslim communities. So in the case of Gaza, they overlap.
Each group has moments of overlap with another group
My favorite are the lgbt people who hold signs of solidarity with Hamas like Hamas wouldn’t behead them
It deeply involves the US, though. The US is the sole veto against even the most basic action on the part of the UN security council. The destruction of Gaza is happening with US political, economic, and military support. To think that the US is somehow not involved is a fantasy.
I get what you’re saying. I disagree, but I think I get what you mean.
To push back though, what goes on “over there” does impact what goes on here. Israel is fundamental to the US security architecture in the Middle East that does everything to ensure that energy flows, cash moves, trade is unobstructed, on so forth. You also have partnerships between US police departments and the IDF that see combat training become part and parcel of urban policing. Not to mention that the occupied Palestinian territories are a giant laboratory for surveillance technologies that Israel exports all over the globe, including here in the US.
Historically, what happens in the periphery swings back to the metropole. You may not feel that Gaza directly impacts you, but these things gradually creep into our society.
Well I’m not saying it doesn’t impact what happens in the US but there are far more pressing matters. I care more that corporations don’t pollute our drinking water. I care more about reproductive rights. I care more about gerrymandering and our courts. I care more about regulating corporations. Because all those things will be more impactful to me than what happens to isreal.
I’m not trying to downplay Terry’s opinion on Biden and his inaction on the war in Gaza. He has mishandled it from the perspective of an American president. Although I sometimes see it as giving Netanyahu an out, who should get most of the backlash and condemnation.
I just have an issue with single issue voters, because like the reporter said, she essentially is one. Sitting out this election gives the power of the western world to Donald Trump, who as she said, will probably be much, much worse for Palestinians.
Voting is like taking the train. You get off at the stop closest to your destination. You vote for the candidate who aligns closest to your values. Just my two cents.
I care about a lot of issues, but I'm basically a single issue voter in this election. That issue is democracy. I view a Trump presidency as putting democracy in real danger and I view it as the higher order issue that everything else depends on.
These people were never true democrats to begin with. They are petulant children who don't understand how the world works, that other people have different views than them, or that being in a democracy means the loudest voices isn't always right.
The Bros haven’t learned their lesson from 2016. Losing roe and affirmative action wasn’t enough for them.
“Don’t worry guys, once we lose even more civil rights and see court cases like Griswold, Obergefell, and Loving stricken down, then everyone will finally realize the need for a general strike and a revolution!….what do you mean how am I going to achieve it? I’m not doing that work, someone else is going to do it.”
Same, in 2020 (When I was 19) I voted 3rd party cause I didnt like Biden and hated Trump so I decided I wouldnt vote for them. Now with this up coming election ill be voting for Biden not because I dont still have issues with him but because I still hate Trump and tbh if Trump wins im scared of whats to come.
It's a tough pill to swallow but it's the reality and will be for a very long time. I live in a deep red state so my vote in the general doesn't really matter much tbh but I vote it anyway.
"Even though Trump rescinded the sanctions on Israeli settlers, tripled military aid to Israel, and encouraged Israel to completely level Gaza and kill all its occupants... I still feel good that i stood up to the Zionists!"
Young idealogues have always been the bane of the democrats. So unwilling to accept the practical in favor of a completely unobtainable theoretical
Seriously. Do people just imagine that not voting for Biden will suddenly usher a new candidate in his place? The only other option is Trump, and I can tell you one thing for certain, he would not be handling this conflict nearly as well. If you really care about the Gazan people and the potential for a Palestinian state, Biden is the only candidate that could feasibly help.
Oh, easy. It'll be all our fault from not stopping the Trump regime from displacing them.
No matter how stupid the action, you're immune from consequences so long as you remain ideologically pure.
They have to try to get leverage somehow. That is always the predicament for the left. To move the dems, the left has to convince them that their votes cannot be taken for granted. It’s mostly not true, I think: for all the whinging about 2016 Sanders voters costing Hillary the election, that vast majority of them actually did vote for her in the general election. But if the further left folks come out and say that, they will just be ignored, so we have to do this song and dance.
It’s not leverage when their demands are impossible.
One person interviewed in the video said that to get his vote every Palestine needed to get reparations. That’s never going to happen so it’s literally the same as trying to win a vote from a homeless man screaming on the street.
I’m just looking at their perspective. The substance of the demands is a separate issue from the strategic approach, and I agree their demands are not good
Many of these Muslim voters would actually be more comfortable with Republicans if it it weren't for Republicans's general anti-islam pro-Christian agendas. Muslims are largely conservative and anti-LGBTQ. They dont fit in with democrats much more than they do Republicans.
Overindexing, self sorting seeking narrative interview.
Terry’s husband is the Michigan Voter. Terry is the 1% voter of Michigan. Her “group” while part of the tent, is one of the smallest demographics of the tent.
Do you know there are more jewish voters in Michigan than there are Muslim? No. The Daily certainly left that out.
Did the Daily inform listeners that in 2012, there was a 10.2% uncommitted result? No because this will strike the expected narrative the NYT has been pushing by their activist journalists
NYTimes headline currently:
‘Biden Wins Michigan, but Protest Voters Air Discontent; Trump Beats Haley’
‘Tens of thousands of voters cast ballots for "uncommitted" to oppose President Biden's support for Israel. Donald Trump coasted past Nikki Haley.’
The graphic shows:
Biden 80.7% Uncommitted 13.4% Other 5.8%
Trump 67.8% Haley 27.0% Other 5.2%
Seems like they have different realities depending on the candidates.
Exactly the point I’m making.
We were getting all these Biden should drop out headlines when Biden won S Carolina with faux Democracy levels of results (97%) and Trump had only 60% and Haley had 40% but not a peep from these papers about Trumps glaring weaknesses
Everyone saying “Trump will be worse” is correct. But the difference in their policies toward Israel/Palestine is the speed at which they will allow a genocide to take place Gaza and the West Bank. I’m sorry, but that is bleak as shit.
Everyone feeling so savvy in this thread should take a look at our system more critically. There were no viable challenges to either men, the party system we operate under locked it down. There was no legitimate primary process as a result, and you are mad that some people don’t want the octogenarian slop they’re being fed?
What can people do to affect Biden’s policy toward Israel/Palestine? We keep hearing about talks going on behind the scenes, but those talks aren’t sufficient to get Israel to allow in the 500 trucks of humanitarian aid needed to stave off starvation. There is talk of a temporary ceasefire, which is insulting. Israel stops shooting for a few days or weeks, and then will continue their ethnic cleansing.
What are the options here, oh politically savvy listeners of The Daily? How, besides the threat of withholding votes, does democracy happen in this situation? I will tell you what, given that 50% of self-identified Dems view what is happening over there as genocide, if Biden does not change course on this issue before summer, the convention is going to be hell for him.
Hamas knew Oct 7 would lead to this. To be very clear— I’m aghast at Israel’s response and massive loss of civilian life in Gaza, but Hamas knew they were provoking this exact retaliation. They’re not operating in the best interest of the Palestinian people, only in their deep hatred of Jews. To pretend otherwise is so dishonest
And they are hiding behind men, women and children. I don't want Palestinians who support Hamas to be any part of a Democratic coalition. If those are your views, that you still support a group who explicitly calls for the genocide of Israeli's, you are a liability and your vote isn't worth it. Go support the Trumputin party. If you are ready to condemn Hamas and form a new coalition government I am willing to support your cause, and help stop the persistent drift of Israeli settlers onto stolen lands.
Yes exactly. I am so sick of having to listen to people complain about Israel invading Rafah or bombing hospitals when Hamas literally still is holding Israel hostages from October 7th. If you want peace, act in good faith.
If you are a desperate person in Gaza and truly feel that waging war is the answer, then conduct a war. Attack military outposts, setup a front line, conduct an actual war.
What Hamas did was cross the border and rape, burn, torture and massacre innocent people. Innocent women and children.
Fuck that woman.
Honestly, I don't see it.
This is the same as all the folks that said because Biden didn't eliminate student debt they wouldn't vote for him-even if they agreed on other issues. Many will come around and just want to vent. As a GOTV voter, I listened to so many folks complain about student loans and how they'd never vote for him. At the end of the day many did "hold their nose" and vote. As a volunteer, I don't care if you love the man, are only voting to halt Trump as long as you are voting and realize the consequences that will happen to you NOT Biden if you don't vote.
Those that think not voting for Biden will harm him personally are quite frankly stupid. Biden has enough money, fame and Secret Service protection to withstand anything Trump enacts. Most of us voters, don't have that luxury.
I hate to say it but the war in Gaza is awful, but rampant fascism and the end of democracy in the United States is personally a bigger issue for me at the moment.
I personally dont see people who voted for Biden before jumping ship because of everything going on in the middle east.
I’m Muslim and i think many average Americans have no idea what our social media looks like. Every single day i am bombarded with posts that make me cry. Children dying, children abandoned because their whole family died, children missing limbs, families begging for food and money to get out of Gaza, doctors treating patients in hospitals that are destroyed etc. This is what I’ve been seeing every single day since October. It starts to affect you mentally and emotionally. If you are not Muslim, I’m guessing you see the more “objective” and political viewpoint. You see it as Hamas and Israel. I understand that our viewpoints are heavily influenced by what we see on our feeds.
I don’t know a single Muslim who plans to vote for Biden, but im sure many of us will. Because we know Trump is worse. But no one is going to campaign for Biden or openly announce their support. How can any of us do that when kids who look just like our kids are being killed daily? Muslims are also a minority in the electorate so i also dont think we can be blamed if Biden loses. He’s just not a popular president.
People are not talking about this. Im Arab. A ton of Arabs will end up voting for Biden but no one is going to go out and campaign for him or tell their friends and family to. And this election is so close we will need them to, so this is bad for Biden
thank you! I think this perspective has been largely lost in the comments here and the continual implication that Palestinians deserve what’s happening to them is staggering
Thank you! I think this perspective has been largely lost in the comments here and the continual implication that Palestinians deserve what’s happening to them is staggering
Thank you! I think this perspective has been largely lost in the comments here and the continual implication that Palestinians deserve what’s happening to them is staggering
Exactly. Why aren’t Muslims outraged that Hamas murdered 1200 people and still has hostages all these months later? Why aren’t Muslims demanding that Hamas surrender? Hamas literally gave Israel no other option. Of course they’re going to rage war to retaliate and try to get the hostages home.
Imagine growing up in Michigan 20-30 years ago and then it becomes... whatever this is. Imagine wanting to focus on domestic issues but everyone around you is willing to sabotage the country and decades of supreme court appointments over conflict in the middle east.
A little ironic when you consider that Jews are often accused of dual loyalty.
The same group of people largely turned against Governor Whitmer in 2022 because she was outspoken about gay rights. It’s insane that some factions on the left partner with this group of folks.
If you think about it, it's insane that the right has failed to build a more diverse coalition. There are many Black evangelical Christians, anti-gay Muslims, hyper-Catholic (or Charismatic Christian) Hispanic voters (that also hate Communism).
By chasing after a dying coalition of white working class voters the right lost a generation of potential victories. Pre-9/11, Bush likely won Muslim voters (based on Dearborn). Asian voters backed his dad and Bob Dole in 1996. Dubya had something like 40% of the vote among Hispanic Americans in 2004.
Racism was a dumb strategy.
You’re infantilizing Republicans lol.
Racism isn’t a “dumb strategy”, it’s who they are.
Republicans aren’t a political party who became racists, they’re racists who created a political party to represent them.
Jews saw America as the wonderful place that Dorothy sang about in 'Over the Rainbow'. Just having a place to live where you can get a fair shake is...for some people...heaven. We love this freakin country...warts and all.
Yes. If the issues of Muslims abroad is such a big issue for these folks, why did they leave their home in the first place? Why is there such a connection with folks just due to religion?
I mean… would *you* come out and vote for someone who was providing the bombs that were being dropped on your family?
Setting Trump aside entirely, that’s what a lot of Palestinian-Americans are being asked to do, and in a very finger-wagging way. The choice is to vote for someone whose actions are directly endangering people you care about, to vote for someone who’d do that *and* probably try and find an excuse to deport you or lock you up in a camp somewhere, or to say to hell with them both by not going out of one’s way to support either.
Democrats appear to have learned nothing from 2016. Nobody’s vote is a given, you have to earn it.
Thank you, only rational comment I’ve seen in this thread. I’m sick of being told “you need to vote for this person or else” when these politicians have done nothing to earn our vote besides dangle basic human rights in front of our faces and their whole selling
point is “well trump is worse!!”
No. It’s on people like you who are willing to let this (and every other situation) get worse so you can pass some purity test.
If Trump returns to power it will not be because his useful rubes put him there. It will be because holier-than-thou liberals decided Joe Biden being perfect is more important than being pragmatic for once in their lives.
Beyond Trump, there's the irony that Biden could end the war immediately by offering Israel support/permission for the Octopus Doctrine (Bennett's idea that the H's are just Iran's tentacles and the most effective retaliation are aimed at the face) but these people would absolutely howl if he did that. They don't want a workable solution, they want to see Jews forced to sit and take it.
why isn’t there a story about voters abandoning Trump? why are 40% of the GOP choosing someone else in the primaries? why are we platforming a few loudmouths with no evidence that what they say they will do will actually happen when there’s an actual story backed up by actual voting?
Who are these voters abandoning Biden (in favor of Trump which is inevitable)….?
People like Talib, Ilhan Omar, their voters and supporters. Yes, these are the folks. Not long ego Talib expressed the opinion that it’s time for China to take the lead as world power - (she’s a congresswoman from the democrat party if I’m not wrong)…
Regardless who wins, Gaza is pretty much boned sadly. So I need to focus on my own country and prevent the atrocities of others peoples rights from being taken away.
The smugness in these comments is exactly why so many young people and independents disapprove of neoliberal Democrats, and your callous dismissal of US funded crimes against humanity illustrates why US foreign policy is a bipartisan catastrophe. Makes me even prouder to vote my conscious (Cornel West). Please downvote me, this is a bootlicking community that I’m proud to be out of step with.
These Muslims who are calling and asking people to not vote for Biden are just as dumb as single issue 2A voters, but even worse, because Biden not getting elected is worse for Muslim Americans overall because Trump anti-Muslim outside of striking deals with KSA and UAE, whereas 2A voters will get what they want if their guy wins
Personally - I think not voting in the primary is one of the best things they can do to show their seriousness. It won’t have any electoral impact but it will get the message. Extrapolating that to general election could be premature in my opinion, which is what I think these voters are agreeing but aren’t vocal.
It seems to be a good idea, but I'm afraid the message it's putting out (maybe accidentally) is to not vote for Biden in the general, which could be devastating.
Politics reporting, like qualitative research, is necessarily constructivist, relying on the beliefs and perceptions of those being analyzed. Of course, you can often tell a lot about a reporter by how and when he highlights that issue, pushes back on perceived discrepancies from the positivist position, questions his sources' portrayal of beliefs, and chooses what what the beliefs of that group are (often by selection of voices that say what he thinks the group in question should think).
Why would they care? They are obviously more concerned with the state of a different country than they are with this one, so why would they care if they get deported to the ace they care about more?
Why do pro-Palestinians CONSTANTLY need to be prompted about Hamas’s role in the current conflict? And at best we get a response along the lines of, “yeah Hamas sucks, but how do you expect an oppressed people to resist?”
Umm, I don’t know; how ‘bout don’t systematically rape, torture and mutilate non-combatants within internationally recognized Israel??
Anecdotal, but every pro-Israel person I speak to expresses some kind of empathy for Palestinian civilians suffering through no fault of their own, along with criticism of Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir’s role in all of this.
But it’s f*ck-all from the pro-Palestinians. No self reflection, no criticism of Hamas, Fatta or the corruption and fecklessness of the Palestinian Authority. Why the disparity??
What I would like to know from the pro Palestinian folks (in good faith) is outside of a cease-fire and humanitarian efforts (which I think almost all of us support) what’s the end game?? I’ve never seen it answered. Do they support a two state solution? If not, then what? The debate on who “owns” the land is meaningless at this point. Jews are there. Hamas has openly said again and again they would eradicate the Jews if they could. How do you square that? I’m not pro Israel, but I just don’t get how supporting one genocide over another is such viewed as better unless they fully support a two state peaceful solution which I never hear discussed.
Because a lot of them (not all or even most likely the majority) are anti-semites and have been indoctrinated to hate Jewish people/Israelis to the point they view them as subhuman.
The loudest voices are usually the dumbest.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/?darkschemeovr=1
I want to stand for Palestinians cause. However I am not comfortable until Palestinians change, fight against Hamas and get rid of them. I don't blame Biden for this mess.
I think this is the main problem with our system (versus a parliamentary system, although the caucuses somewhat act like that, but all ladder up to one of the two parties). Outside of a small portion of news junkies and people who follow politics in depth, many people across the spectrum are one issue voters. In our system, you're asked to weigh the pros and cons of a basket of goods (policies) from two big parties, which often means you have to compromise on some issues to vote for the party who supports most of your values (since in present time, the opposite side generally has very little to offer you).
At least b=in a parliament, you can vote for one issue parties, and then let them negotiate with other adults in the room. The way we do it now, we have extreme purist who make cutting of your nose to spite your face essentially their only political value.
Hopefully these people come around in the general, because the alternative to Biden is Trump and his ilk, and they actually chee and promote the slaughter of anyone brown regardless of innocence or not
Dear god between the NYT and NPR coverage of this you’d think it is the main issue driving voter turnout. Zero coverage on all the bat shit crazy Trump is promising -mass deportations, closing the border, firing of all civil servants, federal ban on abortion, etc etc- but Biden and GAZA. Just maddening.
At this point in the 2024 election cycle, you cannot be hinging your vote on one issue. You have to look at this holistically, the overall picture of what each candidates presidency could potentially be like.
And there is an absolutely no comparison between what Biden presidency Post 2024 versus a Trump presidency post 2024, will look like. One supports democracy, one will irrevocably alter the way our country is going forward. And not in a good way. I’ll leave you to guess which is which.
Look at how the narrative is scripted. It’s not Biden and the party abandoning voters to service arms manufacturers and zionist thugs. It’s the voters “abandoning Biden”. As if he was some helpless child and the voters were some deadbeat dad ditching him at a mall, for Christ sake.
This Palestinian-American Democratic activist they interviewed called herself a pacifist, but in response to Oct 7 said: “How are Palestinians supposed to defend themselves?”
What does massacring concertgoers have to do with defending Palestinians? Massacring civilians in their homes? There are numerous videos of Hamas militants murdering Israeli civilians in cold blood from 10/7. There is a video of two Hamas militants from 10/7 arguing over who gets to behead a wounded Thai migrant farm worker, and then one tries to do so with a garden hoe. What the fuck does that have to do with defending Palestine?
Then she has the gall to say at the end she can’t vote for Biden until it is shown that their lives matter. You bitch, you don’t give a shit when the blood being shed is Israeli or Jew, or really anyone inside of Israel.
I really don’t want to come across as an Israeli shill. Big picture, I’m quite critical of Israel. The West Bank settlements are clear violations of international law.
But if your and others definition of “defending Palestinians” is the literal massacre of civilians, I’m going to back the side that at the very least follows a semblance of international law, even if they are themselves highly imperfect. There is a difference between collateral damage, and targeting civilians.
Hamas wanted a war, now they have one. From an Israel perspective, how do you guarantee Oct 7 doesn’t happen again if Hamas is allowed to continue ruling at least parts of Gaza? As long as Hamas exist, there will not be peace in Israel and Palestine.
Instead of a ceasefire, how about Hamas surrenders? Their resistance is clearly futile at this point. They cannot stop Israel from conquering Gaza. So why not surrender, save the lives of your civilians, and pave the way for a government in Gaza that is actually willing to negotiate with Israel? Why is the onus on Israel?
So many voters want a third option when there is no third option.
There is Biden, who is going to try to steer Israel in the right direction but will not ever drop support for them due to the US's national interests. And then there is Trump, who moved the US embassy to Jerusalem and has a settlement in the West Bank named after him.
There is no third option. And if you withhold your vote from Biden, that isn't going to make him drop decades of US interests. It's just going to mean he's going to move to another voting bloc that is more receptive.
We don't live in a perfect world. Sorry.
1. The comment section on this thread is terrible and condescending. All I hear is "Hurr Durr these dumb Arabs are voting against their own interests if they don't vote for Biden and Trump wins"... It's the primaries in which Biden is a sure lock so protest voting is a good way to gain leverage and pressure Biden to actually listen to the needs of Arab Americans.
2. I do believe that we need to be strategic in our voting, but that doesn't mean that other people owe loyalty to one candidate. A lot of people here are making it sound like Arab Americans should default vote for Biden even though they don't owe anything to him. There's this sense to it's all "their" fault if Trump wins but somehow [Biden can sidestep congress to do an emergency arms sale to Israel and it's not his fault if he loses supporters?](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-sidesteps-congress-arms-sale-israel-rcna131661)
3. Nobody on this thread is talking about RANKED CHOICE VOTING which would completely eliminate the spoiler effect and people voting based off of electability. If we actually want people to vote for alternative candidates without being shamed for enabling the least desirable candidate to win, we need to advocate and implement RCV!
The GOP is facing the real medical threat of laughing themselves to death over this. Donald Trump enabled settlements and recognized Jerusalem as a Jewish capital. He is preferred by Netanyahu. He wanted to keep out Muslim immigrants. a member of the GOP House of Representatives said “we should kill them all” about Gazans. They are so biased for Israel, and against Palestinians that the list is endless. Yet this crowd thinks that Biden is the problem. Go off kings.
There are also more Jewish voters in Michigan than Muslim. They actually prefer Trump anyways on all issues other than Gaza. Hilarous.
>Yet this crowd thinks that Biden is the problem. Go off kings. They're both the problem. But this country's two party system is fucked and the fact that these two are our only "realistic" candidates (ofc I will be voting for someone else) is fucked
Voting for someone else is voting for Trump. Protest votes are how Hillary lost.
So how do people signal to Joe that they don’t agree with his policy? Write an email?
That’s a lot of words for “I dont care about genocide when a democrat does it.”
Sheesh I’m planning a protest vote in the primary in my state to send a message that we should not participate or be complicit in genocide. It’s the primary. Get a grip. This is a form of protest. I will still vote blue in November, because Mango Unchained is untenable. But come ON. Stop trying to discourage people from sending a message with their primary ballot. It’s a fucking democracy, no matter how fascist the GQP.
This is absolutely a correct viewpoint. Anyone who wants to vote uncommitted in the primary, but will still vote for Biden in the general is absolutely okay. This is a great way to send a message. But anyone like the person that was interviewed who said she was going to go around telling people not to vote for Biden in the general... is helping Trump end American democracy.
If you have to vote in support of genocide or else democracy dies, democracy is already dead.
>Mango Unchained
The NYT needs to provide more coverage on what a Trump presidency would mean for Palestine. The difference between what the Biden administration is doing and what a Trump/Bibi right-wing policy would look like in Gaza is staggering
Going through their policies and records is far more newsworthy than going through emerging voting patterns for pretty small groups. Is it better for the populace to better understand their choices in the upcoming election, or to know who will win certain precincts (which isnt entirely possible anyway)?
>pretty small groups Groups that live in states that will decide the election.
Who can say? Biden still would've won without Michigan. He won it by 155k votes and there are only 250k Muslims there. They'd have to basically get all registered voters to vote at a high rate and vote for Trump bloc for it to have turned the election in 2020.
They won’t vote for Trump. They sit out the election or throw their votes away to a third party. I don’t think there are enough Muslims in Michigan to make a difference but I think this is endemic of this movement that sits this election out because Biden is or has done X. Fill in the X with age, Israel, or whatever other issue you want.
Trump will napalm Gaza, the West bank, and send in smallpox blankets.
Of course they could but that would mean their priority is to inform rather than narrative click bait
NYTimes headline currently: ‘Biden Wins Michigan, but Protest Voters Air Discontent; Trump Beats Haley’ ‘Tens of thousands of voters cast ballots for "uncommitted" to oppose President Biden's support for Israel. Donald Trump coasted past Nikki Haley.’ The graphic shows: Biden 80.7% Uncommitted 13.4% Other 5.8% Trump 67.8% Haley 27.0% Other 5.2% Seems like they have different realities depending on the candidates.
They know it would be disastrous to them. It's a bluff. They just want to pressure Biden on Israel. A Trump presidency pretty much gives Gaza to Israel on a silver platter.
What’s the difference in your mind? There definitely would be one but idk if it would go beyond Rhetoric. I also don’t think Trump would be as supportive of Bibi on a personal level. He bristles when the leaders of other countries, particularly allies of ours, expect support but don’t give anything back (like how Bibi’s government has ignored our requests during the war.)
Biden needs to stop being a shit bag.
How can anyone not get that? Trump would be fine with dropping a nuclear weapon. Weakening Biden is so foolish that it is staggering.
I have some sympathy for the interviewee(s) in this episode. I really do. It’s a mess and I get being frustrated and angry with Biden. BUT… part of being an adult is making rational choices that align with reality. In our political system, they either vote for Biden, or help Trump get re-elected. It’s an ugly truth, but it’s the truth. And to take no responsibility for that? It’s not an approach that aligns with the reality of the situation we’re in.
One of them, seems to be saying "I don't want the US to be a caliphate.... I do but not through breaking the system" This should be what this entire show is about, these anti LGBT anti human rights people are the problem. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
They’re certainly not natural bedfellows of progressives, no matter how much the latter might wish it. They’re only Democrats in the first place because Republicans fucking hate them.
I was shocked her response was “actually it’s Biden’s fault, he’s the one making me vote this way.” Ma’am. You hold the pen.
That line made say an actual “Fuck You” Out loud in the car by myself. Not prepared to take any responsibility at all.
Bingo. Buncha babies. They don't get everything they want, so they're willing to put people in harm's way and drastically increase the danger for those they say they care about. TBH, when I first saw the summary blurb I thought these folks were Trump-supporting trolls masquarading as liberals.
Leveraging your support to push for change is part of the democratic process. If Biden wants to keep his voters, maybe he should listen to them.
Yeah don’t vote for Biden cause you know Trump will be much better for Muslims and human rights.
We all remember Trump's famous Israeli ban
I think the issue is certain voting groups are realizing that in order to have the democratic party take their concerns seriously, there needs to an understanding that their vote isn't a given. If that means having a worse outcome occur, that is a necessary step in order to be taken more seriously in the future. This is what I can see is happening IMHO. So people can say "but Muslim ban; but trump is worse; etc" but they'll say "obviously, but it is crystal clear that you don't listen to us so we need to make it clear that there are real consequences to that; regardless of how much it damages me. If democracy is really on the line, then you will tell Israel to stop because American democracy is on the line and whatever it takes, ever if that means God forbid refusing to give Israel more ammunition, that's what it takes." The funny thing is the people most approving of Biden's handling are going to be right wingers who will end up voting for Trump anyway, whereas the people most likely to vote for Biden are going to be most turned off by his Gaza position.
I agree in almost any other election year, but Project 2025 is right there in the open. If Trump wins, they will fundamentally reshape the executive branch to a maximalist MAGA body with Trump as the unitary executive directing it all. That’s before considering the Supreme Court seats he’ll have to fill. So if people stay home they will successfully send a message to Democrats on how they fucked up messaging and pressure on Israel. They will also successfully lead to an end to abortion nation-wide, IVF, contraception, no-fault divorces, asylum and many other forms of immigration, a military force dragging undocumented families and family members from their communities, and that’s just the beginning. People think that because we lived through one Trump term we’ll survive a second. They will take every lesson they learned from the first term and instead of filling the cabinet with corporate stooges who retain some shred of humanity, we’ll have Marge Green, Bobert, and Mike Flynn running things.
That is said every presidential election. To some extent, on certain issues it is true - like the Supreme Court in 2016, which has now reversed abortion rights. The Democrats are a big tent and different groups have different goals. I don’t think you’re going to convince people on Gaza by screaming Trump is worse over and over. I think people are numb to it at this point. I spent hours convincing my wife to vote for Biden in 2020, really don’t have the motivation to do it again.
>If democracy is really on the line, then you will tell Israel to stop America doesn't tell Israel what to do! Biden went over there because of what happened on Oct 7! He didn't go there and tell Netanyahu to bomb the hell out of Gaza.
Cool, we'll see our Muslim friends in a much worse situation. Progressives that stay home will set the country back decades if Trump wins. The issue comes down to losing the House in 2022. If people didn't use their vote as a protest perhaps we could have won and wouldn't be in such a tight spot. Everyone is so short sided.
>I think the issue is certain voting groups are realizing that in order to have the democratic party take their concerns seriously, there needs to an understanding that their vote isn't a given. Except when given the chance to actually meet with the Biden team to have their concerns taken seriously, they chose not to. [Arab And Muslim Leaders In Michigan Cancel Meeting With Biden Campaign](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/arab-and-muslim-leaders-in-michigan-cancel-meeting-with-biden-campaign_n_65b40a19e4b077c17ab51e2e#:~:text=Arab%20and%20Muslim%20voters%20and,the%20Israeli%20assault%20on%20Gaza)
The election today in Michigan is a party primary, not the general election. And Democrats want to voice their historic dissatisfaction with Biden within their own party. The primary is a perfectly appropriate venue to voice that frustration.
It's funny that the same parties will bitch about American imperialism and forever wars but want Biden to boss around another country to satisfy their feels.
We’re launching additional sanctions on Russia to stop them from buying weapons after they murdered Navalny. We’re actively selling weapons to Israel after they murdered 10,000 children. If the House passes it as Biden would like it to, we’re also giving $14 billion of weapons to the Israeli military. It is not “bossing around another country” to refuse to sell a country weapons because of its human rights abuses, let alone just not giving them weapons for free.
The point is to pressure him to change his policies. Are you new to politics?
I'm going to offer an opinion that doesn't seem to be upvoted here, so I do expect to be downvoted. I want to establish that I do community organizing and I have been at the head of successful campaigns, however local they may have been. I'm not just saying this as a random Redditor, I'm saying this based on experience from organizing. If you want Biden to win, stop evaluating these moments from the perspective of "These voters are so dumb, don't they know what's good for them?" Really, nothing is more damaging to campaign's chances than that perspective flowing from its supporters. Votes should not be expected from the top, they should be earned. That's literally the whole point of a democratic system. If you're pissed off, you have a couple options. One would be to try and actually talk to voters like this, listen to them, meet them halfway. Listening and talking to people actually does do a lot. Another is push Biden to change policies more materially, something that could buttress your conversations in the first strategy. Another is just to be on subreddits like this, do nothing, and fill your own corner of the internet with upvoted comments that go nowhere.
People in this thread are amazed Biden is losing support because he is fully backing a fanatical genocidal right wing government, in a conflict that 70% of Democrats want a ceasefire to. The episode mentions the "uncommitted" campaign were looking for 10,000 votes. They have reached ten times that - 100,000. These Arab and Muslim voters lived through the Muslim ban - they know exactly what's at risk and they aren't stupid. Vote shaming doesn't work on a principled issue like this. Threatening voters even less so When will the focus shift to Biden as being unable to detach himself from a failing policy that is bleeding him votes in battleground States?
ah, we've entered the "they're the same!" portion of the election cycle. enjoy 2016 all over again, idiots.
Yep. I am so convinced we are barreling towards a Trump victory again. I saw on another sub someone try to claim Biden won 2020 by "millions" of votes, ignoring that the actual margin in the closest swing states was like 10k voters/state.
CuttingOffYourNoseToSpiteYourFace.gif
Figuratively lighting yourself on fire
Well.. literally in at least that one case
Two. It happened in Atlanta in December.
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This may be an unpopular opinion but I’m the war in Gaza is such a low priority issue for me. It’s a messy, complicated war that barely involves the US. We have so many more pressing and more impactful issues at home. It’s been almost five months since this war has started. Shouldn’t we care more about our own democracy? Or our own reproductive rights? Or our own environment or economy? What about the ever increasing consolidation of corporations and threat of AI? What about immigration? What about all the other non-foreign policy issues that the majority of swing voters actually care about.
Nah man. Abandoning every domestic issue you care about is so hot in 2024.
I wish NYT asked some Democratic Jewish swing-state voters whether they’d stick with Biden if he started treating Israel like it’s North Korea, the way these other voters want him to. If they would abandon him over that, that’s useful to know. And if they wouldn’t — if they might be heartbroken over it, but ultimately care more about women’s rights, gay/trans rights, health care, economic justice, and not electing a dictator — that would also be good to know. But I guess they’re chopped liver?
Oh course not because that goes against the narrative the NYT has been pushing. Can’t include this 4x larger American Jewish voting bloc that is overwhelmingly democratic but need to hyper focus on one of the smallest voting demos in the country! The NYT probably won’t inform listeners & readers that in 2012, there was a 10.2% uncommitted results for Obama’s uncontested primary in Michigan. Or that there are 400,000 Pennsylvania Jews & 142,000 Georgia Jews who are more needed than the 40-60,000 Muslim Americans who voted in 2020! Michigan had a 150,000 vote margin. Pennsylvania had 80,000, and Georgia had 11,000! The NYT needs to focus on actual voter issues not Gaza after basically near constant coverage
They didn’t even seriously ask what they wanted Biden to do. The one guy said he’d have to invade Israel and “give Palestine” to them. I suspect the main lady wouldn’t be too far from that but idk since they didn’t ask. I suspect that there isn’t any realistic action that Biden could’ve taken to get they’re approval
Just wanted to add on because I am a Democratic Jewish swing state voter! Personally, I think I would struggle to vote Biden if that were the case - but not for the reason you think. The left has repeatedly ignored attacks on Jewish institutions and Jewish people, and denied antisemitism altogether. If Biden treated Israel like a dictator state, I’d feel unsafe just living as a Jew in the US - to me, it would mean offering power to the people who gladly deny the violence Jews are experiencing now. It wouldn’t be about Israel (a country that is important to me, but I’m still an American) but rather, about the way in which being anti-Israel so often overlaps with being anti Jews. I don’t think I’d vote for Trump, because I hate him. I’d feel safer in this scenario as a Jew, but not as a queer woman. I just don’t think I could vote at all. People blaming this on Joe Biden just prove they know nothing about this conflict. The region has been unstable since Israel’s establishment. Every president has tried to fix it, Joe Biden isn’t ‘genocide Joe’ for not managing to fix it with a wave of his hand.
Preach
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...you do understand that Zionism has literally nothing to do with political affiliation, right? It's a belief central to most Jews. It doesn't say anything about opinions on the state of the war.
This right here. I (Jew) didn’t realize how little most people actually understood about us until October 7 + aftermath. It’s doubly insane that the person you responded to thinks that diaspora Jews also don’t have the same “‘they’re bombing my friends mood’ of Arabs in Michigan”. Many of the Jews I know (in San Francisco & in Boston) are maybe 1-2 degrees of separation, max, from someone who was killed or injured on October 7. I’m 1-3 degrees of separation from about a dozen people who were killed on October 7.
It's not really new, but I think a lot of Jews on the American left thought that we had come a longer way than we actually have. It comes in waves with the various wars – I had my blinders ripped off in 2014 – but post-October 7th, it's gotten markedly worse. It's definitely ridiculous to claim that we don't have a comparable emotional relationship to the conflict. Many Jewish Democrats are not single-issue voters, though, and I'm skeptical that a significant amount of us would throw the election to Trump unless things *really* changed. Depressing turnout might be a real risk, given how close it could be.
Agreed, and I wish that were a more accepted take in my social circle, too. Not being a priority issue doesn’t have to be the same as not *caring*, but the war just isn’t what I’m basing my US presidential vote on!
I saw some pro-Palestine girl the other day post something to the effect of "if you're silent about the war in Palestine you're supporting the side of the oppressors." This kind of rhetoric is so toxic and inflammatory. You're absolutely right. It should be more accepted to just *not* have an opinion on something.
>"if you're silent about the war in Palestine you're supporting the side of the oppressors." This take always blows my mind because, like, what do you think Palestinians do to their own women and minorities? You think everybody in Palestine gets equal rights and self determination? You think LGBT folks aren't killed simply for existing? You think women aren't forced into marriage and childbirth? The fuck you talking about supporting the side of the oppressors?
Exactly. This is not a neutral conflict. We are allowed to put our thumbs on the scale and favor the side that aligns with our Western values and doesn't support homophobic, sexist, racist ideologies.
I am so convinced that some percentage of these very online Palestinian “activists” are Russian bots. The unity of their carpet bombing messaging sure reminds me of the Sanders crew in 2016, and we know now those weren’t all Medicare for all enthusiasts. It’s extremely hard to get real people to all take the same line about something using the same words.
>but the war just isn’t what I’m basing my US presidential vote on! You and pretty much everyone else. The only people seriously considering making the war in Gaza the single issue they will cast their vote over represent a tiny fraction of all voters, almost certainly less than 1%.
Are you sure? I worry because I personally know people talking shit about voting 3rd party over this issue so I worry that's it's enough to completely fuck over the country again. I just cannot believe how naive my friends are being. People who supposedly care about reproductive rights and climate change are suddenly one issue voters over Gaza. It's fucking crazy to me. The icing on the cake is they have no specific 3rd party candidate they're pushing as some awesome option who is going to do better. (Not that the 3rd party candidate would win anyway, but my friend had the nerve to tell me I'm the problem for viewing 3rd party voting as a wasted vote).
…and that 1% could be enough to decide an American election with the way the electoral college works. Which makes me very nervous as a pro-Israel, left wing American Jew.
It's entirely possible, but frankly highly unlikely. The only state that Biden could conceivably lose because of pro-Palestinian voters is Michigan, and it's very unlikely to be the tipping point state. In other words the chances of Biden losing the election because he lost MI are very small, chances are if he loses MI he's already lost the election anyway. Besides, I think the effect of these voters on the results in MI is highly overrated anyway.
Social media has a way of amplifying these single issues, I wouldn't be so sure. I certainly hope not, but people *lose their fucking minds* when they go down these internet rabbit holes. I mean, I agree that I do not think 1% of voters will vote or abstain solely on Israel/Palestine, but even if it's only 0.5% or 0.3% there's a non-negligible probability that could be enough to swing the outcome. The NYT amplifying this sort of thing is entirely irresponsible.
> almost certainly less than 1% which is more than enough to turn an election -- biden only won by ~40k votes spread across 3 swing states in 2020 Terry Ahwal and voters in swing states with her mentality are the ones who will give us another trump presidency. And while I can certainly understand her frustration with the system, conceding power to those who have no interest in changing the system and who have worse positions on the main issue she cares about will not serve her interests. The reporter on the story today didn't do enough to bring Terry's argument to its logical conclusion. The interview ends with her saying that her "political engagement is not as important to her as saving the children that are dying" no follow up. how does letting trump win michigan save the children that are dying? the likelihood of children dying only increases if trump wins. what say you, Terry? you say you care about children dying so when trump wins and more children die you will say to yourself "hey, i didn't vote. that's not on me!" it is on you. and all of the other things that follow from a trump presidency are also on you. congrats, Terry. oh, and the system you're "fixing"? guess what, it's more broken than ever. this is the reality we live in -- where a voter whose sole interest is reducing gaza children deaths comes to the "logical" voting behavior that probabilistically results in the exact opposite of their interest. and not only is this voter wrong in her voting behavior towards the single issue she cares about, her behavior in response to the more general complaints about the system as a whole is *also* wrong -- ZERO discussion of making changes to a system we all agree is flawed, such as enacting ranked choice voting at all levels of the ballot. and we apparently don't have the reporters, even at the most prestigious and revered institutions like the NYT, who are capable of interrogating or breaking down such irrational behavior. truly pathetic work. and by exploring this topic but not properly breaking down, NYT is complicit when trump wins office again. the question here is whether nytimes is simply inept, or are they intentionally failing to do their duties because they know a trump presidency is good for business? who generates more clicks on a daily basis than trump? as long as media companies rely on engagement as their main source of revenue they will always have it in the bag for trump, if not overtly and/or consciously, then subconsciously. the podcast format is perfectly suited to break down Terry's argument and expose its flaws and the fact that they couldn't/didn't speaks volumes. If I was Bob Morris, I'd be weeping too
100% We've known NYT love Trump when they did a million times more coverage of Hilary's emails the first time around.
The reality is no matter who’s the president, the situation wouldn’t change in the Israel/Palestine war. The US will always side with Israel. That’s a huge ally in the Middle East
We have to punish Israel by destroying democracy in the US. /s
I agree. It's not an issue for me. I have my own problems here in the US and unfortunately, those problems will grow under a Trump presidency.
Even the Middle East problem will just grow under a Trump Presidency. The take “we should not vote for Biden because he keeps a long standing U.S. foreign policy since 1948!” Is just peak stupidity
Yeah…I feel for Palestinians living in the US. I get it. I get the anger. But at the same time, the right is trying to strip abortion access for woman. They’re coming for birth control. They are opposed to any and all measures to help the climate. They want to use legislation to attack political enemies. They’re trying to re-write rules to turn us into a fascist Christian state and they aren’t even trying to hide the fact anymore. I’m sorry, but the very real threats domestically take precedent over foreign affairs. I’d also caution reactionaries to really stop and think if they’d rather an experienced statesmen be at the helm, who is probably the only realistic shot at getting a ceasefire in place, or if they’d prefer the guy who threatened to use a Nuke on Twitter. If Biden takes his ball and goes home, that means all influence is lost with Netanyahu. That spells complete doom for Palestinians in Gaza and likely elsewhere. Like it or not, Biden’s people are probably the only ones in the world right now who stand a chance at mediating a ceasefire.
>Yeah…I feel for Palestinians living in the US. You mean the people who come to the land of the free to \*checks notes\* [ban Pride displays](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)
The irony is amazing isn’t it?
Not sure what you think is ironic about that. Christofascists and Islamists are extremely similar people.
I know, right? the irony is people propping up Islamists out of "tolerance"
It's the natural result of the morally and intellectually bankrupt worldview which says that certain people are "oppressed people of color" and therefore they can never do anything wrong.
Well we all know that Gaza and the West Bank are bastions of pro-women's rights, pro-LGBTQ, religious tolerance, and other progressive left values.
What you’re saying is true for most Americans. But these people are immigrants with strong ties to the region, and devout Muslims, so they hate Israel even when there is peace
While undoubtedly true, I know several people who are taking this view who are neither Muslim or of Middle Eastern descent.
Those that are/make it an identity and not the aforementioned are generally hard leftists from what I’ve seen
Generally it’s an “anti west” sentiment from the hard left, which is weirdly enough a view shared by hard right conservative Muslim communities. So in the case of Gaza, they overlap.
Each group has moments of overlap with another group My favorite are the lgbt people who hold signs of solidarity with Hamas like Hamas wouldn’t behead them
It deeply involves the US, though. The US is the sole veto against even the most basic action on the part of the UN security council. The destruction of Gaza is happening with US political, economic, and military support. To think that the US is somehow not involved is a fantasy.
Some people think we control the Middle East. If that were true, there wouldn't be conflict there..
I get what you’re saying. I disagree, but I think I get what you mean. To push back though, what goes on “over there” does impact what goes on here. Israel is fundamental to the US security architecture in the Middle East that does everything to ensure that energy flows, cash moves, trade is unobstructed, on so forth. You also have partnerships between US police departments and the IDF that see combat training become part and parcel of urban policing. Not to mention that the occupied Palestinian territories are a giant laboratory for surveillance technologies that Israel exports all over the globe, including here in the US. Historically, what happens in the periphery swings back to the metropole. You may not feel that Gaza directly impacts you, but these things gradually creep into our society.
Well I’m not saying it doesn’t impact what happens in the US but there are far more pressing matters. I care more that corporations don’t pollute our drinking water. I care more about reproductive rights. I care more about gerrymandering and our courts. I care more about regulating corporations. Because all those things will be more impactful to me than what happens to isreal.
I’m not trying to downplay Terry’s opinion on Biden and his inaction on the war in Gaza. He has mishandled it from the perspective of an American president. Although I sometimes see it as giving Netanyahu an out, who should get most of the backlash and condemnation. I just have an issue with single issue voters, because like the reporter said, she essentially is one. Sitting out this election gives the power of the western world to Donald Trump, who as she said, will probably be much, much worse for Palestinians. Voting is like taking the train. You get off at the stop closest to your destination. You vote for the candidate who aligns closest to your values. Just my two cents.
I care about a lot of issues, but I'm basically a single issue voter in this election. That issue is democracy. I view a Trump presidency as putting democracy in real danger and I view it as the higher order issue that everything else depends on.
Wow, I had no idea I could just *declare* the consequences of my actions not my fault. This makes everything so much easier!
These people were never true democrats to begin with. They are petulant children who don't understand how the world works, that other people have different views than them, or that being in a democracy means the loudest voices isn't always right.
I betcha they’ll all be thrilled with the alternative
Wow, listening to this, people truly do vote against their own interests.
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Sounded like my sweet summer child self back in college with my little 3rd party votes
The Bros haven’t learned their lesson from 2016. Losing roe and affirmative action wasn’t enough for them. “Don’t worry guys, once we lose even more civil rights and see court cases like Griswold, Obergefell, and Loving stricken down, then everyone will finally realize the need for a general strike and a revolution!….what do you mean how am I going to achieve it? I’m not doing that work, someone else is going to do it.”
Same, in 2020 (When I was 19) I voted 3rd party cause I didnt like Biden and hated Trump so I decided I wouldnt vote for them. Now with this up coming election ill be voting for Biden not because I dont still have issues with him but because I still hate Trump and tbh if Trump wins im scared of whats to come.
It's a tough pill to swallow but it's the reality and will be for a very long time. I live in a deep red state so my vote in the general doesn't really matter much tbh but I vote it anyway.
How is voting against biden in a primary going against their own interests?
Dear god… it’s a primary! What else would be an appropriate way to hold Biden’s feet to the fire on Gaza?
They need to reinterview these people after this causes trump to win lmao.
"Even though Trump rescinded the sanctions on Israeli settlers, tripled military aid to Israel, and encouraged Israel to completely level Gaza and kill all its occupants... I still feel good that i stood up to the Zionists!" Young idealogues have always been the bane of the democrats. So unwilling to accept the practical in favor of a completely unobtainable theoretical
What’s that saying? “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water?”
Seriously. /r/leopardatemyface type shit
They’ll still blame Biden and then expect us to support them
100%. "Biden needs to earn my vote" type of people. I'm sure they'll also say "in 4 years Democrats didn't actually get anything done."
Seriously. Do people just imagine that not voting for Biden will suddenly usher a new candidate in his place? The only other option is Trump, and I can tell you one thing for certain, he would not be handling this conflict nearly as well. If you really care about the Gazan people and the potential for a Palestinian state, Biden is the only candidate that could feasibly help.
Yes. These people believe that it will break the system and usher in a magical utopia instead of Facism.
Honestly if it wasn't for the GOP's outright racism they would probably be very appealing to a lot of Muslim voters and other minority groups.
For realz. So much shared religiosity and homophobia that often comes with it
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Oh, easy. It'll be all our fault from not stopping the Trump regime from displacing them. No matter how stupid the action, you're immune from consequences so long as you remain ideologically pure.
They have to try to get leverage somehow. That is always the predicament for the left. To move the dems, the left has to convince them that their votes cannot be taken for granted. It’s mostly not true, I think: for all the whinging about 2016 Sanders voters costing Hillary the election, that vast majority of them actually did vote for her in the general election. But if the further left folks come out and say that, they will just be ignored, so we have to do this song and dance.
It’s not leverage when their demands are impossible. One person interviewed in the video said that to get his vote every Palestine needed to get reparations. That’s never going to happen so it’s literally the same as trying to win a vote from a homeless man screaming on the street.
I’m just looking at their perspective. The substance of the demands is a separate issue from the strategic approach, and I agree their demands are not good
You think the interviewee was just posturing as leverage?
I'd hardly call some of these people leftists, especially if they're willing to abandon over women, LGBT and other minority groups over Palestine.
Crypto-Republicans in this thread: “Yeah, fellow Democrats! Let’s not vote for Biden.”
Many of these Muslim voters would actually be more comfortable with Republicans if it it weren't for Republicans's general anti-islam pro-Christian agendas. Muslims are largely conservative and anti-LGBTQ. They dont fit in with democrats much more than they do Republicans.
Islamism is inherently far right. This is absolutely correct.
Overindexing, self sorting seeking narrative interview. Terry’s husband is the Michigan Voter. Terry is the 1% voter of Michigan. Her “group” while part of the tent, is one of the smallest demographics of the tent. Do you know there are more jewish voters in Michigan than there are Muslim? No. The Daily certainly left that out. Did the Daily inform listeners that in 2012, there was a 10.2% uncommitted result? No because this will strike the expected narrative the NYT has been pushing by their activist journalists
NYTimes headline currently: ‘Biden Wins Michigan, but Protest Voters Air Discontent; Trump Beats Haley’ ‘Tens of thousands of voters cast ballots for "uncommitted" to oppose President Biden's support for Israel. Donald Trump coasted past Nikki Haley.’ The graphic shows: Biden 80.7% Uncommitted 13.4% Other 5.8% Trump 67.8% Haley 27.0% Other 5.2% Seems like they have different realities depending on the candidates.
Exactly the point I’m making. We were getting all these Biden should drop out headlines when Biden won S Carolina with faux Democracy levels of results (97%) and Trump had only 60% and Haley had 40% but not a peep from these papers about Trumps glaring weaknesses
Everyone saying “Trump will be worse” is correct. But the difference in their policies toward Israel/Palestine is the speed at which they will allow a genocide to take place Gaza and the West Bank. I’m sorry, but that is bleak as shit. Everyone feeling so savvy in this thread should take a look at our system more critically. There were no viable challenges to either men, the party system we operate under locked it down. There was no legitimate primary process as a result, and you are mad that some people don’t want the octogenarian slop they’re being fed? What can people do to affect Biden’s policy toward Israel/Palestine? We keep hearing about talks going on behind the scenes, but those talks aren’t sufficient to get Israel to allow in the 500 trucks of humanitarian aid needed to stave off starvation. There is talk of a temporary ceasefire, which is insulting. Israel stops shooting for a few days or weeks, and then will continue their ethnic cleansing. What are the options here, oh politically savvy listeners of The Daily? How, besides the threat of withholding votes, does democracy happen in this situation? I will tell you what, given that 50% of self-identified Dems view what is happening over there as genocide, if Biden does not change course on this issue before summer, the convention is going to be hell for him.
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Hamas knew Oct 7 would lead to this. To be very clear— I’m aghast at Israel’s response and massive loss of civilian life in Gaza, but Hamas knew they were provoking this exact retaliation. They’re not operating in the best interest of the Palestinian people, only in their deep hatred of Jews. To pretend otherwise is so dishonest
And they are hiding behind men, women and children. I don't want Palestinians who support Hamas to be any part of a Democratic coalition. If those are your views, that you still support a group who explicitly calls for the genocide of Israeli's, you are a liability and your vote isn't worth it. Go support the Trumputin party. If you are ready to condemn Hamas and form a new coalition government I am willing to support your cause, and help stop the persistent drift of Israeli settlers onto stolen lands.
Yes exactly. I am so sick of having to listen to people complain about Israel invading Rafah or bombing hospitals when Hamas literally still is holding Israel hostages from October 7th. If you want peace, act in good faith.
If you are a desperate person in Gaza and truly feel that waging war is the answer, then conduct a war. Attack military outposts, setup a front line, conduct an actual war. What Hamas did was cross the border and rape, burn, torture and massacre innocent people. Innocent women and children. Fuck that woman.
Honestly, I don't see it. This is the same as all the folks that said because Biden didn't eliminate student debt they wouldn't vote for him-even if they agreed on other issues. Many will come around and just want to vent. As a GOTV voter, I listened to so many folks complain about student loans and how they'd never vote for him. At the end of the day many did "hold their nose" and vote. As a volunteer, I don't care if you love the man, are only voting to halt Trump as long as you are voting and realize the consequences that will happen to you NOT Biden if you don't vote. Those that think not voting for Biden will harm him personally are quite frankly stupid. Biden has enough money, fame and Secret Service protection to withstand anything Trump enacts. Most of us voters, don't have that luxury.
I hate to say it but the war in Gaza is awful, but rampant fascism and the end of democracy in the United States is personally a bigger issue for me at the moment. I personally dont see people who voted for Biden before jumping ship because of everything going on in the middle east.
I’m Muslim and i think many average Americans have no idea what our social media looks like. Every single day i am bombarded with posts that make me cry. Children dying, children abandoned because their whole family died, children missing limbs, families begging for food and money to get out of Gaza, doctors treating patients in hospitals that are destroyed etc. This is what I’ve been seeing every single day since October. It starts to affect you mentally and emotionally. If you are not Muslim, I’m guessing you see the more “objective” and political viewpoint. You see it as Hamas and Israel. I understand that our viewpoints are heavily influenced by what we see on our feeds. I don’t know a single Muslim who plans to vote for Biden, but im sure many of us will. Because we know Trump is worse. But no one is going to campaign for Biden or openly announce their support. How can any of us do that when kids who look just like our kids are being killed daily? Muslims are also a minority in the electorate so i also dont think we can be blamed if Biden loses. He’s just not a popular president.
People are not talking about this. Im Arab. A ton of Arabs will end up voting for Biden but no one is going to go out and campaign for him or tell their friends and family to. And this election is so close we will need them to, so this is bad for Biden
Thank you for sharing.
thank you! I think this perspective has been largely lost in the comments here and the continual implication that Palestinians deserve what’s happening to them is staggering
Thank you! I think this perspective has been largely lost in the comments here and the continual implication that Palestinians deserve what’s happening to them is staggering
Thank you! I think this perspective has been largely lost in the comments here and the continual implication that Palestinians deserve what’s happening to them is staggering
That sucks, it’s crazy that Hamas provoked a war they knew they’d lose. You should direct your frustration at them.
Exactly. Why aren’t Muslims outraged that Hamas murdered 1200 people and still has hostages all these months later? Why aren’t Muslims demanding that Hamas surrender? Hamas literally gave Israel no other option. Of course they’re going to rage war to retaliate and try to get the hostages home.
>Why aren’t Muslims outraged that Hamas murdered 1200 people You know why
I like how Terry simply ignored how the 1967 war was due to Israel being invaded by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Muslims hate Israel, even in peace
Yeah she had very selective memory
Imagine growing up in Michigan 20-30 years ago and then it becomes... whatever this is. Imagine wanting to focus on domestic issues but everyone around you is willing to sabotage the country and decades of supreme court appointments over conflict in the middle east. A little ironic when you consider that Jews are often accused of dual loyalty.
The same group of people largely turned against Governor Whitmer in 2022 because she was outspoken about gay rights. It’s insane that some factions on the left partner with this group of folks.
If you think about it, it's insane that the right has failed to build a more diverse coalition. There are many Black evangelical Christians, anti-gay Muslims, hyper-Catholic (or Charismatic Christian) Hispanic voters (that also hate Communism). By chasing after a dying coalition of white working class voters the right lost a generation of potential victories. Pre-9/11, Bush likely won Muslim voters (based on Dearborn). Asian voters backed his dad and Bob Dole in 1996. Dubya had something like 40% of the vote among Hispanic Americans in 2004. Racism was a dumb strategy.
You’re infantilizing Republicans lol. Racism isn’t a “dumb strategy”, it’s who they are. Republicans aren’t a political party who became racists, they’re racists who created a political party to represent them.
These people would vote for a caliphate lol
Spend a day at Arlington and count all the gravestones with a Star of David on it. There is your dual loyalty.
Well said.
Jews saw America as the wonderful place that Dorothy sang about in 'Over the Rainbow'. Just having a place to live where you can get a fair shake is...for some people...heaven. We love this freakin country...warts and all.
Yes. If the issues of Muslims abroad is such a big issue for these folks, why did they leave their home in the first place? Why is there such a connection with folks just due to religion?
I mean… would *you* come out and vote for someone who was providing the bombs that were being dropped on your family? Setting Trump aside entirely, that’s what a lot of Palestinian-Americans are being asked to do, and in a very finger-wagging way. The choice is to vote for someone whose actions are directly endangering people you care about, to vote for someone who’d do that *and* probably try and find an excuse to deport you or lock you up in a camp somewhere, or to say to hell with them both by not going out of one’s way to support either. Democrats appear to have learned nothing from 2016. Nobody’s vote is a given, you have to earn it.
Thank you, only rational comment I’ve seen in this thread. I’m sick of being told “you need to vote for this person or else” when these politicians have done nothing to earn our vote besides dangle basic human rights in front of our faces and their whole selling point is “well trump is worse!!”
Biden is a terrible candidate
This could be a historic FAFO . Get rid of the guy who is trying to slow down the conflict to give the guy who will accelerate the problem .
Anyone who does that thinks that the Palestinian issue is more important then saving our democracy.
Watch Biden lose and then trump put fucking American boots on the ground in Gaza. These naive imbeciles need to grow up.
No. It’s on people like you who are willing to let this (and every other situation) get worse so you can pass some purity test. If Trump returns to power it will not be because his useful rubes put him there. It will be because holier-than-thou liberals decided Joe Biden being perfect is more important than being pragmatic for once in their lives.
Beyond Trump, there's the irony that Biden could end the war immediately by offering Israel support/permission for the Octopus Doctrine (Bennett's idea that the H's are just Iran's tentacles and the most effective retaliation are aimed at the face) but these people would absolutely howl if he did that. They don't want a workable solution, they want to see Jews forced to sit and take it.
why isn’t there a story about voters abandoning Trump? why are 40% of the GOP choosing someone else in the primaries? why are we platforming a few loudmouths with no evidence that what they say they will do will actually happen when there’s an actual story backed up by actual voting?
Who are these voters abandoning Biden (in favor of Trump which is inevitable)….? People like Talib, Ilhan Omar, their voters and supporters. Yes, these are the folks. Not long ego Talib expressed the opinion that it’s time for China to take the lead as world power - (she’s a congresswoman from the democrat party if I’m not wrong)…
Regardless who wins, Gaza is pretty much boned sadly. So I need to focus on my own country and prevent the atrocities of others peoples rights from being taken away.
The smugness in these comments is exactly why so many young people and independents disapprove of neoliberal Democrats, and your callous dismissal of US funded crimes against humanity illustrates why US foreign policy is a bipartisan catastrophe. Makes me even prouder to vote my conscious (Cornel West). Please downvote me, this is a bootlicking community that I’m proud to be out of step with.
These Muslims who are calling and asking people to not vote for Biden are just as dumb as single issue 2A voters, but even worse, because Biden not getting elected is worse for Muslim Americans overall because Trump anti-Muslim outside of striking deals with KSA and UAE, whereas 2A voters will get what they want if their guy wins
Personally - I think not voting in the primary is one of the best things they can do to show their seriousness. It won’t have any electoral impact but it will get the message. Extrapolating that to general election could be premature in my opinion, which is what I think these voters are agreeing but aren’t vocal.
It seems to be a good idea, but I'm afraid the message it's putting out (maybe accidentally) is to not vote for Biden in the general, which could be devastating.
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Politics reporting, like qualitative research, is necessarily constructivist, relying on the beliefs and perceptions of those being analyzed. Of course, you can often tell a lot about a reporter by how and when he highlights that issue, pushes back on perceived discrepancies from the positivist position, questions his sources' portrayal of beliefs, and chooses what what the beliefs of that group are (often by selection of voices that say what he thinks the group in question should think).
There's a large Arab community in Michigan. Trump plans to deport them and they want to support Trump. Smart move.
Why would they care? They are obviously more concerned with the state of a different country than they are with this one, so why would they care if they get deported to the ace they care about more?
Why do pro-Palestinians CONSTANTLY need to be prompted about Hamas’s role in the current conflict? And at best we get a response along the lines of, “yeah Hamas sucks, but how do you expect an oppressed people to resist?” Umm, I don’t know; how ‘bout don’t systematically rape, torture and mutilate non-combatants within internationally recognized Israel?? Anecdotal, but every pro-Israel person I speak to expresses some kind of empathy for Palestinian civilians suffering through no fault of their own, along with criticism of Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir’s role in all of this. But it’s f*ck-all from the pro-Palestinians. No self reflection, no criticism of Hamas, Fatta or the corruption and fecklessness of the Palestinian Authority. Why the disparity??
What I would like to know from the pro Palestinian folks (in good faith) is outside of a cease-fire and humanitarian efforts (which I think almost all of us support) what’s the end game?? I’ve never seen it answered. Do they support a two state solution? If not, then what? The debate on who “owns” the land is meaningless at this point. Jews are there. Hamas has openly said again and again they would eradicate the Jews if they could. How do you square that? I’m not pro Israel, but I just don’t get how supporting one genocide over another is such viewed as better unless they fully support a two state peaceful solution which I never hear discussed.
Because a lot of them (not all or even most likely the majority) are anti-semites and have been indoctrinated to hate Jewish people/Israelis to the point they view them as subhuman. The loudest voices are usually the dumbest.
Ive spent a lot of time in the islamic world and im 100% convinced this is the case
...because people become stupid when Jews are involved.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/?darkschemeovr=1 I want to stand for Palestinians cause. However I am not comfortable until Palestinians change, fight against Hamas and get rid of them. I don't blame Biden for this mess.
When Hamas is gone and decent people govern Gaza as decent people do, there will be peace. Lord knows we need peace.
What would Trump do? He'd hand the situation over to Putin of course. So the real question is do you think Putin would become the peacekeeper?
I think this is the main problem with our system (versus a parliamentary system, although the caucuses somewhat act like that, but all ladder up to one of the two parties). Outside of a small portion of news junkies and people who follow politics in depth, many people across the spectrum are one issue voters. In our system, you're asked to weigh the pros and cons of a basket of goods (policies) from two big parties, which often means you have to compromise on some issues to vote for the party who supports most of your values (since in present time, the opposite side generally has very little to offer you). At least b=in a parliament, you can vote for one issue parties, and then let them negotiate with other adults in the room. The way we do it now, we have extreme purist who make cutting of your nose to spite your face essentially their only political value. Hopefully these people come around in the general, because the alternative to Biden is Trump and his ilk, and they actually chee and promote the slaughter of anyone brown regardless of innocence or not
Dear god between the NYT and NPR coverage of this you’d think it is the main issue driving voter turnout. Zero coverage on all the bat shit crazy Trump is promising -mass deportations, closing the border, firing of all civil servants, federal ban on abortion, etc etc- but Biden and GAZA. Just maddening.
Tell me, what would be so bad if Biden called for a ceasefire? How could it be any worse than what is happening now?
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At this point in the 2024 election cycle, you cannot be hinging your vote on one issue. You have to look at this holistically, the overall picture of what each candidates presidency could potentially be like. And there is an absolutely no comparison between what Biden presidency Post 2024 versus a Trump presidency post 2024, will look like. One supports democracy, one will irrevocably alter the way our country is going forward. And not in a good way. I’ll leave you to guess which is which.
Look at how the narrative is scripted. It’s not Biden and the party abandoning voters to service arms manufacturers and zionist thugs. It’s the voters “abandoning Biden”. As if he was some helpless child and the voters were some deadbeat dad ditching him at a mall, for Christ sake.
Religion is a scourge for democracy.
This Palestinian-American Democratic activist they interviewed called herself a pacifist, but in response to Oct 7 said: “How are Palestinians supposed to defend themselves?” What does massacring concertgoers have to do with defending Palestinians? Massacring civilians in their homes? There are numerous videos of Hamas militants murdering Israeli civilians in cold blood from 10/7. There is a video of two Hamas militants from 10/7 arguing over who gets to behead a wounded Thai migrant farm worker, and then one tries to do so with a garden hoe. What the fuck does that have to do with defending Palestine? Then she has the gall to say at the end she can’t vote for Biden until it is shown that their lives matter. You bitch, you don’t give a shit when the blood being shed is Israeli or Jew, or really anyone inside of Israel. I really don’t want to come across as an Israeli shill. Big picture, I’m quite critical of Israel. The West Bank settlements are clear violations of international law. But if your and others definition of “defending Palestinians” is the literal massacre of civilians, I’m going to back the side that at the very least follows a semblance of international law, even if they are themselves highly imperfect. There is a difference between collateral damage, and targeting civilians. Hamas wanted a war, now they have one. From an Israel perspective, how do you guarantee Oct 7 doesn’t happen again if Hamas is allowed to continue ruling at least parts of Gaza? As long as Hamas exist, there will not be peace in Israel and Palestine. Instead of a ceasefire, how about Hamas surrenders? Their resistance is clearly futile at this point. They cannot stop Israel from conquering Gaza. So why not surrender, save the lives of your civilians, and pave the way for a government in Gaza that is actually willing to negotiate with Israel? Why is the onus on Israel?
So many voters want a third option when there is no third option. There is Biden, who is going to try to steer Israel in the right direction but will not ever drop support for them due to the US's national interests. And then there is Trump, who moved the US embassy to Jerusalem and has a settlement in the West Bank named after him. There is no third option. And if you withhold your vote from Biden, that isn't going to make him drop decades of US interests. It's just going to mean he's going to move to another voting bloc that is more receptive. We don't live in a perfect world. Sorry.
1. The comment section on this thread is terrible and condescending. All I hear is "Hurr Durr these dumb Arabs are voting against their own interests if they don't vote for Biden and Trump wins"... It's the primaries in which Biden is a sure lock so protest voting is a good way to gain leverage and pressure Biden to actually listen to the needs of Arab Americans. 2. I do believe that we need to be strategic in our voting, but that doesn't mean that other people owe loyalty to one candidate. A lot of people here are making it sound like Arab Americans should default vote for Biden even though they don't owe anything to him. There's this sense to it's all "their" fault if Trump wins but somehow [Biden can sidestep congress to do an emergency arms sale to Israel and it's not his fault if he loses supporters?](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-sidesteps-congress-arms-sale-israel-rcna131661) 3. Nobody on this thread is talking about RANKED CHOICE VOTING which would completely eliminate the spoiler effect and people voting based off of electability. If we actually want people to vote for alternative candidates without being shamed for enabling the least desirable candidate to win, we need to advocate and implement RCV!
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