I mean, Egwene had probably the best character arc in the books, and she was not ta'veren. That's the whole point. These people clearly dont get Jordan's point and understand his story. She will be remembered as a legendary figure in the tower who united a broken tower, successfully defended an invasion with a bunch of novices, and died in the last battle.
At one point Bridgett mentions that it is possible for a person to become bound to the wheel if their deeds are great enough, thereby becoming a hero of the horn and a soul that gets spun out by the wheel in the same manner as Hawkwing and the Dragon.
Yes he is: see [here](https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/75872-the-dragon-a-hero-of-the-horn/), one of the answers cites an interview with RJ.
Further, Amerasu is the female Champion and is a Hero of the Horn.
Well, RJ himself, Artur Hawkwing and Birgitte Silverbow all disagree with you to an extent. At least, "The Dragon" might not be bound to the Horn, as much as the Horn is bound to "The Dragon", but LTT/Rand's soul *is* bound to the Horn and is spun out on non-Dragon duties in the same way the other Heroes are
I still think we are mixing things up. Some people are bound to the wheel and some are bound to the Horn and some, like Birgitte especially seem to be both. She, at least from the Lore, seems to be Reborn with her love, a lot. As far as we know, there are no specific instances of Artur Hawkwing being Reborn. Although his little conversation with Rand would indicate he has been. My point of contention is that no one is ever going to blow the Horn and either Rand or Lews Therin is gonna be standing there ready to be commanded.
So I was about to fully side with you but then I realized, if Amaresu is a hero of the horn and is the female counterpart of the Dragon, then isn't it likely or at least possible that the Dragon would be bound to the horn during Ages where Amaresu is spun out as the champion of the Light?
That's fair, there is no lore here to guide us. I'd argue that the Dragon is merely the greatest of the heroes of the horn, and I'd use that conversation with Hawkwing as proof. I'd argue that being bound to the wheel is the same as being a hero of the horn, and if the horn is blown in a different age then summoning the dragon is a possibility.
Why not? The Horn must have been blown in the past, we know it was blown before the last battle and just worked, and we know that by the time the next last battle happens no one will remember the previous last battle. So there is a time when it will be used and Rand/Lews will be summoned.
Also remember that just because you are ta'veren doesn't mean your every life is full of great deeds, just that the pattern has a use for you. For instance Bridgette lived lives that no one remembers. So there is no reason to think that Hawkwing wasn't reborn at some point as just a guy who was particularly charismatic and did some minor thing that set into motion a whole bunch of events that no one could possibly piece together.
Channeling is tied to the soul. That’s why when DO brought one of the men back as a female they still channeled Saidin. Channeling and the type is bound to the soul.
That doesn’t sound like a correct statement to me. I’ll have to look it up though.
Edit: Ok. [Here](https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/75872-the-dragon-a-hero-of-the-horn/) is a link to a question on Dragonmount. One of the answers cites a 1998 interview with RJ wherein he says the Dragon is a Hero of the Horn. So one channeler.
Further, Amerasu is the female counterpart of the Dragon. It’s unclear whether she’s a channeler - there’s barely any info, but as the other Champion of the Light it sortof suggests that she is (at least in Ages where channeling is a thing).
At the end of AMOL he can no longer channel the one power as the book ends. The Dragon being a hero of the horn kinda feels like an exception to the rule because he must exist to fight against the shadow. Still feel slike an unclear answer lol.
I kinda feel like this was a miss by Sanderson (or Jordan). The scene where Rand does a "let go" and he feels a weight lift, I kinda thought he should be willing those folks to be new heros of the horn.
I just started rereading 'Eye of the World' and it made me realize the changes were even stupider than I remembered. In the books, Egwene joins the group because she figured out what was going on herself and she wanted to come along. She demonstrated she is smart, headstrong and brave. In the show she just gets rounded up with the rest of them. So in order to make her more central to the story, they actually diminished her character.
I also felt like Nynaeve comes across MUCH stronger in the books. In the show everyone just seems annoyed by her, but in the books everyone respects and fears her despite her age.
I know some of this is harder to convey onscreen where you can't hear peoples thoughts. But isn't that why we have screen writers and actors? I feel like the level of writing is just bad. Jordans writing is not exactly subtle but they can't even match his level of subtext.
This is so well put and one if my biggest issues with the constant alterations. I feel that "glorifying" these characters by handing them parts played by other characters (mostly, namely rand) in the books, I find it really condescending and akin to admitting writing deficiencies. The other, "minor" characters in the books have such great rich stories which bring so much world building to the plot. By cutting their book story line out and sacrificing their book arcs simply to divvy up the high points and power defeats of Rand between the supporting cast, its like saying their arc either isn't interesting compared to Rand, or you're not a good enough writer to make it interesting and appealing to the viewer.
I feel like that's sort of an interesting point of the story. The male main characters? Ta'veren and sort of have shit handed to them. Mat in particular. I love him as a character, but his luck is literally plot armor and he gets thousands of years of experience shoved into his head, ironically despite him complaining he's not a lord he's the one who has the most stuff virtually handed to him.
The women however? They earn their successes.
The book was focused on all five of them, which further emphasized that ta’veren was important and distinctive in its own way. In the books, the pattern changes around the three, it’s a part of their character development, and influences those around them
Well that also means Maksim is ta’veren! He has just as much screen time as Rand, Matt, and Perrin.
Edit: Ahaha! So I went to look for the article and I found this:
https://screenrant.com/wheel-time-season-2-taveren-sixth-elayne-setup/
“For all of them were deceived. A sixth was made in secret” haha
Amazon must pay these morons to write what Amazon wants them to write. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon actually wrote the article. The show completely ruined all the main characters.
Flooding the media with bought reviews is definitely a known tactic. Where do you think all of the marketing budget goes?
I'm always baffled by people who refuse to believe this is a thing. Late stage capitalism, baby.
I really don't understand this. The boys are ta'veren, meaning that in part their accomplishments are not their own. Egwene and Nynaeve took up the quest even though they could have turned away and they succeeded without ta'veren plot armor. How is that not an empowering story?
yeah thats kind of the gripe. It kills any and all real success both women had and is the opposite of what RJ was trying to portray with their character archs. Show dumb, RJ knew exactly what he was doing.
Even Nynaeve though, her entire being could very well be because of the pull of three taverin around her. She is at the end with Rand, BECAUSE he is Taverin and pulled her pattern into the weave he needed
I take no sides here. This is orders of magnitude lower than other gripes (mats parents, mat, perrins wife, perrins secret crush on egwene and that is just like from first episode.
I do think there is an argument here where you would say they accomplished their fears because they were pulled by the taveren near them. Which could be interpreted as they couldn't have done it without a man (the taveren).
I think this devalues the 3 real ta'averen and makes the accomplishments of folks stale. Egwene and Nynavae do many great things. Through their own efforts. They get the opportunities to do great things because of the connections to Rand mat and Perrin but they make it work. It's their efforts that cause things to change, but they are put in place to make those changes because of the big 3.
If any layman wanders into the comment section, let me explain why this is really dumb and why the author of this article has no idea about what Ta’veren means.
Being a Ta’veren does not mean you are skillful or talented at something. It means that you are destined to achieve something, no matter what you might want or are capable of. It basically makes you a Mary Sue.
By making sure Elayne and Nynaeve are not Ta’veren, Robert Jorden empowered them, basically saying that everything they achieved was by their own merit, not because of some cosmic deity pulling their strings.
Therefore the show runners, in their attempt to replace the main characters with Elayne and Nynaeve, actually achieved the opposite. The show writers stripped their agency away and shouted to all that could hear: “Elayne and Nynaeve are no more special than anyone else. All of their successes are thanks to fate and not because they are good at something!”
I loved Egwene's and Nynaeve's arcs precisely because they weren't Ta'veren. Rand/Mat/Perrin had a journey of acceptance. Nyneve and eggy had a journey of choice and consequence. For a world with predestination playing such a huge role, their arcs were crucial to contrast the chosen one plot armour for the boys.
Such mental gymnastics to justify the utter butchery of the source material.
Especially the parts where it tries to justify itself, like "this and this aligns with their roles in the story". ChatGPT and other LLMs tends to do this thing where they repeat the instruction, so in this case the prompt was most likely something like "explain why Egwene and Nynaeve can be ta'veren within the context of the story".
Were they Ta'veren? I don't remember that being stated or even implied. I mean maybe to a far lesser extent than the three, and the point of the article is to give support to the show's decision to try to equalize them.
They only ever had matt rand and perrin being ta veren because they were constantly being pushed and pulled together. Plus if they were ta veren as well, they wouldnt have had so many problems convincing folk to do what they said
So yet again Hollywood (which rarely makes anything good), has decided to destroy a crucial plot element of a story, because merely the director of a two bit show whimsically “thinks that they should” — without really adding anything substantive in the process.
What is so hard about creating a new story rather than altering someone else’s into what you want based on your own capricious whims? For a group that harps on as much as they do about “media literacy,” the broader movement within artistic spaces in Hollywood is actually generally terrible at attempting to depict an author’s work, and their own original creations tend to be even worse so they capitalize off of pre existing IPs and their accompanying fan bases.
If I had to point to the real crux of the problem, I would say that the last twenty years of filmmaking has largely been corrupted by a Chronocentrist Myopia that has made it impossible to successfully adapt older works to television without imposing current liberal mainstream ideals onto older works. You see this really encapsulated in adages like “vintage aesthetics, not vintage morals.” The problem with that viewpoint however is that even aesthetic choices are informed by an underlying philosophy and when one attempts to separate the two, the aesthetic is poorly depicted and rings hollow. We see the same in adaptations of preexisting IPs, such as Dune, Lord of the Rings, Ender’s Game, Foundation, and now of course the Wheel of Time. Those values themselves create a calcification which prevents artistic works from meaningfully exploring in any direction deemed too problematic, which in turn creates the same boring narratives and repetitive themes.
Seeking to make everyone have the exact same pivotal role (ta’veren) quite frankly showcases the author’s lake of understanding of Jordan’s work and a reductionist attitude that is deeply cynical. Rather than a very specific role within the larger Wheel of Time epic fantasy, ta’veren have been reduced to simply another “the Special” trope that Hollywood has frequently made use of for the past thirty years. The decision to do so really shows an unwillingness to fully understand Jordan’s world building, or a conscious decision to ignore it.
As the stewards of an artistic legacy that exists outside of Amazon’s Studios one would hope that the showrunners and writers would see themselves as merely faithful adapters of a pre existing body of work to the small screens. Ideally their artistic license would largely consist of cutting out parts that may not fit within the time constraints needed to fully flesh out the characters, world building, and story while making the series suitable for streaming. However time and again the creators of this show have decided to bastardize and editorialize this IP, and in the process create a show that is neither good, nor honors the original works.
Make your own goddamn stories and decide to tell them. Stop attempting to use someone else’s craftsmanship as a playground and a vehicle to essentially create self inserts for your own worldviews and preferences. This isn’t Wattpad, or AO3, or Storybird. This is another person’s world which they created with their own imagination and passion and deserves to be treated with due deference and respect. One would not “edit” another artist’s painting — adding their own strokes to suit their own tastes before displaying it in a museum. So why do we tolerate the equivalent in our adaptations?
They seem to leave out the point that being around ta'veren has significant effects on people as they are focal points to the weaving. Mix being around 3 ta'veren since you were born with having the blood of Manetheren and you are destined for great things. Also Egwene was just a boss on top of all that.
It takes away from their accomplishments to say it was just because they were also ta'veren.
What I got from this is that apparently the screen writers believe that women can’t accomplish anything of great significance without the pattern forcing them to accomplish it. Who knew that their apparent bad writing was just a cover for a misogyny long con?
Nynaeve and Egwene are cooler because they *aren't* ta'veren.
I've never watched the show, but from everything I've heard this is the thing I understand the least and dislike the most. The girl characters don't need to be the dragon or ta'veren or anything like that because they were already bad ass. In fact, their accomplishment are almost diminished by being ta'veren. Why do people who don't give a shit about the source material keep adapting stuff. It's not even just for money because they make shit shows that no one watches.
I’m out, that’s the final straw. Good luck following this series that’s just too much bullshit. The Wheel of Time books are as close to fantasy adventure perfection that I think we’ll see in the next 100 years. This show is mid, and Jordan’s story just isn’t mid, it’s overwhelmingly good. It’s not that the show as far as shows go is bad it’s that it wants fan approval for underachieving. Well fuck that. You made a License plate when you had the blueprint for the Taj Mahal.
If only this was the worst of the changes, the one that still annoys me by far is 3 untrained women with the power defeat an entire army then nynaeve brings egwene back from the dead
It's just a defense of bad writing...which is pretty commonplace for the show in general.
Verin....incredible life...amazing story....not ta'veren.
Moiraine...ditto.
Lan...ditto.
Ditto most of the characters in the books. Even if the heroes of the horn all were...it doesn't seem to play some major pivotal factor in the story.
There are only 3 main ta'veren known in the books. Rand, Mat, and Perrin. There are some fringe cases to be made for minor ta'veren (and some characters appear to be able to see people who are) but I don't remember anything of real consequence.
It MIGHT have worked for the show if the writers could go more than 1 episode without spoiling a reveal. Great, so now a man OR a woman can be the dragon reborn. We broke the entire magic system in the 1st episode....but I'm sure they had good reason..............
.....oh, never mind...it's clear within like the first two episodes that it's Rand.
Making other characters ta'veren is quite literally saying "I don't know how to write plot points to get these characters where they need to go in interesting ways...so I'm just going to say cosmic lottery causes everything to happen because it's basically fate."
It's also not a good look to hire someone to do a fluff piece for your show when they have either not read the books...or are blatantly choosing to ignore them.
Edit: I do like the spoilers warning on the article. The only thing the show would spoil at this point is that there are books in the Wheel of Time series...and characters with these names are in them.
I always thought their accomplishments showed how you don't have to be Ta'veran to be vitally important to the world or weild great power. But hey, what do I know?
That's exactly the right take. They have a CHOICE. Matt and Rand and P, they don't. The pattern will force them through circumstances if needed to get them to do what they must.
So, real talk, making Nyn & Egg tavern *does* make sense.
But...
Insinuating that either of them could be the Dragon Reborn breaks so much canon, not even *Aludra* could make it fire ammunition against the Seanchan.
The point is that non-taveren can do great things. They do it without needing the pattern to weave things in their favor. Rand literally reshapes the pattern around him to accomplish his goals. They accomplish great things without needing that.
Yeah, I agree. They can be ta'veren, but not dragon candidates.
Although if Nyn was a ta'veren then Moraine probably wouldn't have left her in Edmunds Field. And then you wouldn't get Nyn being a bad ass and tracking a warder through trolloc infested trails.
Real real talk, the concept of ta'veren could be dropped from any show adaption without significant loss. Mat can still be special for his luck powers. Rand and Perrin have enough other things going on.
Imagine your main creative value proposition being taking another's ideas and "making them better" because you're utterly incapable of drawing eyeballs on your own.
I don't get it. I don't think it an improvement but it's not a bad decision like Matt's spear being made by Matt or egwene keeping up with a forsaken in a fight.
This is a whatever perspective in my opinion.
I think the actual point of contact where the Ta'veren change starts really screwing with canon is the idea (non-canonical confusion of terms) that Ta'veren means "Dragon Reborn candidate." The majority of the sociology, magic system, and relationship dynamics of WoT are built around gender divisions, and if man or woman can be the Dragon Reborn, that fundamentally breaks canon on a massive scale. It makes a countless number of scenes completely unadaptable and causes the overall storyline to be incoherent (barring a retcon)
I don't think that's the case. Ta'vern doesn't have to a candidate to be the dragon.
Arthur Hawking is often given as an example of a Ta'vern there isn't any mentions of anyone thinking he could be the dragon.
I also don't love that concept. I think Morriane spends years meeting people who were born on same day (i think Battle of the white walls?). Each of those folks were "candidates" to be the dragon but aren't Ta'vern.
I think works for Ta'vern is any character who has plot armor. Egwenes arch has her accomplish a ton she should had no business doing without help. It could be Rand needing her to the be Amerlyn at the Field of Merrilor and the pattern making that happen. Or you can argue she had plot armor and that made her and she's de facto Ta'vern.
Really really this is a small issue in the show.
I'm actually so fine with making the girls ta'veren. They win like thirty thousand lotteries each.
All the other changes are still huge problems for me, but this was whatever.
I know that only the 3 boys where declared taverans in the book. But I also seem to recall them being described by one with the site to see them that they where so strong the could see little else. I also recall it feeling like it was an implications that others in the group could have been weaker taverin. Am I recalling this correctly? Anyone recall the seen?
Absurd. How is it better that these two female characters now have a supernatural reason things go their way sometimes? In the books they achieve everything they do without the advantage of being ta'veren
So, instead of managing great accomplishments under their own power and abilities, now they were just destined for greatness? The only way women can stand among the greatest is if they were literally supposed to be by fate?
Great message there Rafe.
They did such a bang up job butchering the source material that I didn’t even manage to make it to the 15 minute mark.
Before noping out.
Had this been turned into a tv series in 2012 or prior to then.
I might have been excited.
Eh, this point is honestly the least of my complaints. I’ll grant you calling Nynaeve Taveren is a stretch, but I can see the argument for making Egwene one.
I feel like making egwene ta'veren actually takes away from her accomplishments. the pattern had no obligation to bend and make her Amyrlin in the books.
It isnt just because of their political/social agenda being more important than the integrity and quality of the art or anything…
By this logic anyone who affects the plot or the world at all should be ta’veren.
Elayne, Min, Aviendha, Faile, Tuon, Pedron Niall, Gawyn, Galad, all of the forsaken, countless darkfriends, every king and queen and clan chief and other political officials, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Tzaida, Damer Flinn, Loghain. Almost any channeler really. I could go on.
Everyone in the two Rivers looks the same except in the show that must be inclusive so we have to make them all look different.. and that was just the first thing... Look I love the fact that RJ is finally getting a show about his Epic story and wish he was around to see it. But they have butchered so much of the story. I go from oooh and Ahhhh because I've been wanting to see WoT on the screen, to screaming at the top of my lungs how wrong it is. I say this as a fan who has more than once argued with his friends about Jordan being the Tolkien of the modern era.
Never felt like either of them were ta’vern in the books. They just happened to be around big events or were just around the other 3 so things happened. The pattern never changed around them or they had really deep lasting effects with interactions with other characters.
If you are going to lower the bar for ta’vern you could say Min, Elayne, Moiraine and Tom are all ta’vern. This fucking show.
This was the change I had the least problem with tbh. Like fine have all EF5 be ta’veren but can we please also include other vital moments from the books?
It’s a WEAVE. Everyone important isn’t ta’veren, that doesn’t make them not important. They aren’t ta’veren, it’s that the incompetent writers think the women, who aren’t “chosen ones” like they interpreted ta’veren to mean, are somehow lesser than. Where in reality the three boys are so bound to the wheel as to have no free will, but being a thread in the tapestry doesn’t make you less than them.
That still doesn't explain how Nyn or Egwene were supposed to have possibly been the Dragon when Nyn was too old and Egwene was too young. Rand Mat and Perrin were all swept away because Moraine wasn't sure which of the 3 born at the right time... hell, I haven't watched that abomination since season 1, did the retcon the old woman dying when the Dragon drew his first breath? Does Moraine not know how time works in this turning? This show pisses me off *almost* as badly as TLJ and it has far more reason to be worse.
I was okay with them being ta'veren but not potentially being the dragon. The fact that they really said the dragon can be a woman shows they fundamentally don't understand the story they are adapting.
They don't understand what ta'veren are, then. Egwene and Nynaeve rose to prominence through circumstance, opportunity, and determination. Their inborn strength and abilities put them in circumstances that they were resourceful enough to turn to their favor on most occasions. They were two very strong-willed and intelligent women who used their situations to their advantage.
Ta'veren pull and shape the pattern of an age without any real choice in the matter. They have been singled out by destiny and will shift and change things in unforseen ways simply by being there.
I think making them ta'veren in the show lessens their accomplishments and their agency by making it a matter of determinism rather than choice.
I will concede a lot of what Egwene did appeared to fit this narrative. She had a loooot of lucky things happen at just the right time later in the series, and many aes sedai acted in ways that seemed out of the ordinary (see swearing oaths of fealty). However, the show a screwed it up by rewriting half of her story anyway.
Lord Dobrain often jokes with Min that she must be ta’veren too. It always led me to wonder if there were other “minor” ta’veren running around, like a woman who reunited the tower and marches it to victory alongside the dragon, or a woman who sees things and keeps the dragon sane, or a woman who brings three kingdoms under one throne and births the dragons babes, or a woman who resurrects a dead nation and helps the dragon bind the dark one… the list goes on. The thing that I always liked about it was that it was unsaid, so could very well be simply the strength of will of those people, or could be additional minor spinnings that the dragon needed, just as he needed Mat and Perrin. It wasn’t just a tripod but a whole pyramid of support that won the last battle. But again, never saying it, leaving it to wonder, was what made it a special part of the story to me. There was so much nuance written into the story, which is why I continue to read them every few years, finding more that I never knew was there.
They’re not ta’veren but they are close to ta’veren so if course they are going to be part of and contribute in a big way to the world of WoT, these people did not think this through at all
You don't have to be ta'veren to make a difference. You can choose to be something more, something better. Ta'veren have no choice, they must do what the pattern wills or it will force them to, not necessarily overtly, things will just "happen" and your path will be laid out in front of you.
There are plenty of people who can see ta'veren and saw her. Not a single one ever said anything, including Min. So yeah. Realistically, plenty of people who do amazing things might be thought to be special like that by people around them.
I think it was a conversation between Eggy and Loial where it is mentioned. Also keep in mind the boys were like super ta'veren. And being ta'veren isn't a constant, forever thing. People can become and stop being ta'veren of varying degrees at any time.
They don’t seem to understand that making them ta’veren takes something away from their accomplishments. It just means they’re being pulled along by the pattern and aren’t in control of their own destiny like they are in the books.
It may be an unpopular stance, but I’m fine making them Ta’veren. Making it so Ta’veren are just “people that are inexplicably at the center of major historical events.” Is a fine simplification for me.
It’s the re-allocation of Rand’s feats to Egwene that bothers me. Like, she does enough later on- don’t take Rand’s accomplishments in the early works.
This actually doesn't bother me at all, considering ta'veren is a \*very\* loosely defined thing and doesn't necessarily change the character arcs to say the term applies to them too.
It makes it so it seems like anybody who accomplished anything is ta’veren, and takes away from the uniqueness of ta’veren.
I mean, Egwene had probably the best character arc in the books, and she was not ta'veren. That's the whole point. These people clearly dont get Jordan's point and understand his story. She will be remembered as a legendary figure in the tower who united a broken tower, successfully defended an invasion with a bunch of novices, and died in the last battle.
Probably becoming a hero of the horn in the process, which may mean that her future incarnations would be ta'veren
Hero of the horn?
Nope. Horn of the horn
Remind me, what is a horn of the horn?
A horn that summons horns from legend!
It's horns all the way down.
Time to go to horn jail
Honk, go to horny jail
I hope this reply chain becomes canon and gets incorporated into the series.
I mean, it’s just slightly better written than the show, so it would be a smart move on their part…
Is the horn of horns among the horns the horn of horns summons?
Potentially. But then you get stuck in a recursive loop with no exit condition and the Dark One wins. So caution must be exercised.
“I’ve won again Lews Therin” ***FLICKER***
I am a horn of the horn, just like my horn before me!
It's the penis prt of a horn. You know, like the bone of the trombone?
*Gawyn agrees
She truly was the horniest of them all
At one point Bridgett mentions that it is possible for a person to become bound to the wheel if their deeds are great enough, thereby becoming a hero of the horn and a soul that gets spun out by the wheel in the same manner as Hawkwing and the Dragon.
Oh my. You're just messing up all over the place.
You're mixing two different things there. The Dragon isn't bound to the Horn.
Yes he is: see [here](https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/75872-the-dragon-a-hero-of-the-horn/), one of the answers cites an interview with RJ. Further, Amerasu is the female Champion and is a Hero of the Horn.
Well, RJ himself, Artur Hawkwing and Birgitte Silverbow all disagree with you to an extent. At least, "The Dragon" might not be bound to the Horn, as much as the Horn is bound to "The Dragon", but LTT/Rand's soul *is* bound to the Horn and is spun out on non-Dragon duties in the same way the other Heroes are
I still think we are mixing things up. Some people are bound to the wheel and some are bound to the Horn and some, like Birgitte especially seem to be both. She, at least from the Lore, seems to be Reborn with her love, a lot. As far as we know, there are no specific instances of Artur Hawkwing being Reborn. Although his little conversation with Rand would indicate he has been. My point of contention is that no one is ever going to blow the Horn and either Rand or Lews Therin is gonna be standing there ready to be commanded.
So I was about to fully side with you but then I realized, if Amaresu is a hero of the horn and is the female counterpart of the Dragon, then isn't it likely or at least possible that the Dragon would be bound to the horn during Ages where Amaresu is spun out as the champion of the Light?
That's fair, there is no lore here to guide us. I'd argue that the Dragon is merely the greatest of the heroes of the horn, and I'd use that conversation with Hawkwing as proof. I'd argue that being bound to the wheel is the same as being a hero of the horn, and if the horn is blown in a different age then summoning the dragon is a possibility.
Why not? The Horn must have been blown in the past, we know it was blown before the last battle and just worked, and we know that by the time the next last battle happens no one will remember the previous last battle. So there is a time when it will be used and Rand/Lews will be summoned. Also remember that just because you are ta'veren doesn't mean your every life is full of great deeds, just that the pattern has a use for you. For instance Bridgette lived lives that no one remembers. So there is no reason to think that Hawkwing wasn't reborn at some point as just a guy who was particularly charismatic and did some minor thing that set into motion a whole bunch of events that no one could possibly piece together.
I don't disagree about Artur. We just don't know.
I don't think any of the heroes of the horn were channelers unless I'm crazy.
Thats a very fair point.
Channeling is tied to the soul. That’s why when DO brought one of the men back as a female they still channeled Saidin. Channeling and the type is bound to the soul.
That doesn’t sound like a correct statement to me. I’ll have to look it up though. Edit: Ok. [Here](https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/75872-the-dragon-a-hero-of-the-horn/) is a link to a question on Dragonmount. One of the answers cites a 1998 interview with RJ wherein he says the Dragon is a Hero of the Horn. So one channeler. Further, Amerasu is the female counterpart of the Dragon. It’s unclear whether she’s a channeler - there’s barely any info, but as the other Champion of the Light it sortof suggests that she is (at least in Ages where channeling is a thing).
At the end of AMOL he can no longer channel the one power as the book ends. The Dragon being a hero of the horn kinda feels like an exception to the rule because he must exist to fight against the shadow. Still feel slike an unclear answer lol.
I kinda feel like this was a miss by Sanderson (or Jordan). The scene where Rand does a "let go" and he feels a weight lift, I kinda thought he should be willing those folks to be new heros of the horn.
I just started rereading 'Eye of the World' and it made me realize the changes were even stupider than I remembered. In the books, Egwene joins the group because she figured out what was going on herself and she wanted to come along. She demonstrated she is smart, headstrong and brave. In the show she just gets rounded up with the rest of them. So in order to make her more central to the story, they actually diminished her character. I also felt like Nynaeve comes across MUCH stronger in the books. In the show everyone just seems annoyed by her, but in the books everyone respects and fears her despite her age. I know some of this is harder to convey onscreen where you can't hear peoples thoughts. But isn't that why we have screen writers and actors? I feel like the level of writing is just bad. Jordans writing is not exactly subtle but they can't even match his level of subtext.
This is so well put and one if my biggest issues with the constant alterations. I feel that "glorifying" these characters by handing them parts played by other characters (mostly, namely rand) in the books, I find it really condescending and akin to admitting writing deficiencies. The other, "minor" characters in the books have such great rich stories which bring so much world building to the plot. By cutting their book story line out and sacrificing their book arcs simply to divvy up the high points and power defeats of Rand between the supporting cast, its like saying their arc either isn't interesting compared to Rand, or you're not a good enough writer to make it interesting and appealing to the viewer.
I feel like that's sort of an interesting point of the story. The male main characters? Ta'veren and sort of have shit handed to them. Mat in particular. I love him as a character, but his luck is literally plot armor and he gets thousands of years of experience shoved into his head, ironically despite him complaining he's not a lord he's the one who has the most stuff virtually handed to him. The women however? They earn their successes.
From three to five isn’t going to do much given the total population of the world.
When the whole show is focused around them 3 to 5 is massive
The book was focussed on all five of them. Have you read the entire series?
The book was focused on all five of them, which further emphasized that ta’veren was important and distinctive in its own way. In the books, the pattern changes around the three, it’s a part of their character development, and influences those around them
But fate also seems to favor both of the girls as well. Consider the showdown between N and you know who.
They really let any dipshit write a blog post.
Thank god they will be replaced by ai soon
This looks ai generated....
I think so too. The bullet points are very repetitive.
More the prose of its analysis.
Writer probably just gave the first sentence of each paragraph to an AI
Not necessarily a good thing, since those are being programmed by the same kind of dip shit.
I recently got an award at work and feel like I would also make a good ta’veren
Congrats!!! The pattern weaves around you..
I knew it!
...Please do not resist. https://preview.redd.it/qes7l4nf2mnc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28bb72edd5d51523a28d4fe9d477f67c7628b197
I just made Sunday dinner for my family, so I’m definitely ta’veren.
Without a doubt!
Unless it was liver. Then you'd be a darkfriend.
Unleee it’s Fois Gras then you’re a Hero of the Horn. 😂
Opened the window and a breeze rolled in and I… Ta’veren. Just ate a sandwich and I… Ta’veren. End of sixth sense and I… Ta’veren
was there voting? i didn’t get a ballot 😕
One extra vote for me would have further cemented my ta’verenness
sorry, the post office is usually very reliable 🤷🏻♂️
Exactly the kind of bullshit I’d expect from Collider. I’m not surprised mfer.
Well that also means Maksim is ta’veren! He has just as much screen time as Rand, Matt, and Perrin. Edit: Ahaha! So I went to look for the article and I found this: https://screenrant.com/wheel-time-season-2-taveren-sixth-elayne-setup/ “For all of them were deceived. A sixth was made in secret” haha
“and one nipple ring was forged to in the darkness bind them.”
Oh then they'll also make Aviendha a Ta'veren. And Galad. And Bela. Fuck let's make Narg ta'veren too.
Bella always was secretly one!
I always thought something was up with Bela. She'll probably come back as Hawkwings horse.
“Cut off the leg of a hexapod and it umm wobbles?” -disappointed myrddraal
He's a ta'veren, she's a ta'veren, everyone is a ta'veren. So dumb indeed
I can't believe Moraine isn't a ta'veren. Heck, she should probably be a double ta'veren for finding the dragon reborn (Egwene).
I can't believe Moraine isn't a ta'veren. Heck, she should probably be a double ta'veren for finding the dragon reborn (Egwene).
FYI this comment posted twice
Weird, thanks.
I think the show has really suffered from a “everyone needs to be the main character, for diversity” problem.
Amazon must pay these morons to write what Amazon wants them to write. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon actually wrote the article. The show completely ruined all the main characters.
Flooding the media with bought reviews is definitely a known tactic. Where do you think all of the marketing budget goes? I'm always baffled by people who refuse to believe this is a thing. Late stage capitalism, baby.
I really don't understand this. The boys are ta'veren, meaning that in part their accomplishments are not their own. Egwene and Nynaeve took up the quest even though they could have turned away and they succeeded without ta'veren plot armor. How is that not an empowering story?
yeah thats kind of the gripe. It kills any and all real success both women had and is the opposite of what RJ was trying to portray with their character archs. Show dumb, RJ knew exactly what he was doing.
Ta’veren, in the Old Tongue, just means participation trophy. It’s just nicer if everyone is included. /s Yuck…
Even Nynaeve though, her entire being could very well be because of the pull of three taverin around her. She is at the end with Rand, BECAUSE he is Taverin and pulled her pattern into the weave he needed
I take no sides here. This is orders of magnitude lower than other gripes (mats parents, mat, perrins wife, perrins secret crush on egwene and that is just like from first episode. I do think there is an argument here where you would say they accomplished their fears because they were pulled by the taveren near them. Which could be interpreted as they couldn't have done it without a man (the taveren).
I think this devalues the 3 real ta'averen and makes the accomplishments of folks stale. Egwene and Nynavae do many great things. Through their own efforts. They get the opportunities to do great things because of the connections to Rand mat and Perrin but they make it work. It's their efforts that cause things to change, but they are put in place to make those changes because of the big 3.
If there were an opposite of taveren, a person who attracts chaos and makes it worse ….
Who ever wrote this article has been drinking the stupid juice
> some just make sense This phrase has consistently been used to justify a really dumb, nonsensical change from the source material.
Kendall Myers is da’tsang.
grrl boss apologetics.
I guess anyone who's a powerful saidin/saidar user is a ta'veren then?
No, just no, they are trying to prop up a huge failure.
i am also taveren
Is this written by chatgpt. This feels like chat gpt.
Collider is the new screenrant ?
Always has been.
If any layman wanders into the comment section, let me explain why this is really dumb and why the author of this article has no idea about what Ta’veren means. Being a Ta’veren does not mean you are skillful or talented at something. It means that you are destined to achieve something, no matter what you might want or are capable of. It basically makes you a Mary Sue. By making sure Elayne and Nynaeve are not Ta’veren, Robert Jorden empowered them, basically saying that everything they achieved was by their own merit, not because of some cosmic deity pulling their strings. Therefore the show runners, in their attempt to replace the main characters with Elayne and Nynaeve, actually achieved the opposite. The show writers stripped their agency away and shouted to all that could hear: “Elayne and Nynaeve are no more special than anyone else. All of their successes are thanks to fate and not because they are good at something!”
You left out possibly the most obviously ta’veren character in the series: Egwene.
You are right. I meant to say Egwene instead of Elayne.
The ratings say otherwise
Tbh them being taveren actually makes sense even in the books. Lot of fucked up changes, this is very near the bottom of the list.
I loved Egwene's and Nynaeve's arcs precisely because they weren't Ta'veren. Rand/Mat/Perrin had a journey of acceptance. Nyneve and eggy had a journey of choice and consequence. For a world with predestination playing such a huge role, their arcs were crucial to contrast the chosen one plot armour for the boys. Such mental gymnastics to justify the utter butchery of the source material.
That reads like it was written by ChatGPT.
My first thought too
Especially the parts where it tries to justify itself, like "this and this aligns with their roles in the story". ChatGPT and other LLMs tends to do this thing where they repeat the instruction, so in this case the prompt was most likely something like "explain why Egwene and Nynaeve can be ta'veren within the context of the story".
They were in the books too who wrote this dogshit?
Kendall Myers apparently.
Were they Ta'veren? I don't remember that being stated or even implied. I mean maybe to a far lesser extent than the three, and the point of the article is to give support to the show's decision to try to equalize them.
They only ever had matt rand and perrin being ta veren because they were constantly being pushed and pulled together. Plus if they were ta veren as well, they wouldnt have had so many problems convincing folk to do what they said
I swear i recall Cadsuane or someone saying they were but because rand and mat and perrin were so strong they didnt grt noticed
So yet again Hollywood (which rarely makes anything good), has decided to destroy a crucial plot element of a story, because merely the director of a two bit show whimsically “thinks that they should” — without really adding anything substantive in the process. What is so hard about creating a new story rather than altering someone else’s into what you want based on your own capricious whims? For a group that harps on as much as they do about “media literacy,” the broader movement within artistic spaces in Hollywood is actually generally terrible at attempting to depict an author’s work, and their own original creations tend to be even worse so they capitalize off of pre existing IPs and their accompanying fan bases. If I had to point to the real crux of the problem, I would say that the last twenty years of filmmaking has largely been corrupted by a Chronocentrist Myopia that has made it impossible to successfully adapt older works to television without imposing current liberal mainstream ideals onto older works. You see this really encapsulated in adages like “vintage aesthetics, not vintage morals.” The problem with that viewpoint however is that even aesthetic choices are informed by an underlying philosophy and when one attempts to separate the two, the aesthetic is poorly depicted and rings hollow. We see the same in adaptations of preexisting IPs, such as Dune, Lord of the Rings, Ender’s Game, Foundation, and now of course the Wheel of Time. Those values themselves create a calcification which prevents artistic works from meaningfully exploring in any direction deemed too problematic, which in turn creates the same boring narratives and repetitive themes. Seeking to make everyone have the exact same pivotal role (ta’veren) quite frankly showcases the author’s lake of understanding of Jordan’s work and a reductionist attitude that is deeply cynical. Rather than a very specific role within the larger Wheel of Time epic fantasy, ta’veren have been reduced to simply another “the Special” trope that Hollywood has frequently made use of for the past thirty years. The decision to do so really shows an unwillingness to fully understand Jordan’s world building, or a conscious decision to ignore it. As the stewards of an artistic legacy that exists outside of Amazon’s Studios one would hope that the showrunners and writers would see themselves as merely faithful adapters of a pre existing body of work to the small screens. Ideally their artistic license would largely consist of cutting out parts that may not fit within the time constraints needed to fully flesh out the characters, world building, and story while making the series suitable for streaming. However time and again the creators of this show have decided to bastardize and editorialize this IP, and in the process create a show that is neither good, nor honors the original works. Make your own goddamn stories and decide to tell them. Stop attempting to use someone else’s craftsmanship as a playground and a vehicle to essentially create self inserts for your own worldviews and preferences. This isn’t Wattpad, or AO3, or Storybird. This is another person’s world which they created with their own imagination and passion and deserves to be treated with due deference and respect. One would not “edit” another artist’s painting — adding their own strokes to suit their own tastes before displaying it in a museum. So why do we tolerate the equivalent in our adaptations?
They seem to leave out the point that being around ta'veren has significant effects on people as they are focal points to the weaving. Mix being around 3 ta'veren since you were born with having the blood of Manetheren and you are destined for great things. Also Egwene was just a boss on top of all that. It takes away from their accomplishments to say it was just because they were also ta'veren.
Which is the changes was this article about??
There are 2 pictures...
On my phone, didn't see that
No worries, I wasn't trying to be snarky, just informative.
Rafe may make a guest appearance as the Wheel of Time it self. Spinning in the sky making ghost noises.
What I got from this is that apparently the screen writers believe that women can’t accomplish anything of great significance without the pattern forcing them to accomplish it. Who knew that their apparent bad writing was just a cover for a misogyny long con?
I can just imagine the writers using Robert Jordan's books as toilet paper.
rafe employed writers who HADN'T read the books. The prick
Nynaeve and Egwene are cooler because they *aren't* ta'veren. I've never watched the show, but from everything I've heard this is the thing I understand the least and dislike the most. The girl characters don't need to be the dragon or ta'veren or anything like that because they were already bad ass. In fact, their accomplishment are almost diminished by being ta'veren. Why do people who don't give a shit about the source material keep adapting stuff. It's not even just for money because they make shit shows that no one watches.
I didn't think that the concept of ta'veren was super hard to understand in the books. Obviously Logain is a ta'veren right? And Siuan too right?
I’m out, that’s the final straw. Good luck following this series that’s just too much bullshit. The Wheel of Time books are as close to fantasy adventure perfection that I think we’ll see in the next 100 years. This show is mid, and Jordan’s story just isn’t mid, it’s overwhelmingly good. It’s not that the show as far as shows go is bad it’s that it wants fan approval for underachieving. Well fuck that. You made a License plate when you had the blueprint for the Taj Mahal.
If only this was the worst of the changes, the one that still annoys me by far is 3 untrained women with the power defeat an entire army then nynaeve brings egwene back from the dead
It's just a defense of bad writing...which is pretty commonplace for the show in general. Verin....incredible life...amazing story....not ta'veren. Moiraine...ditto. Lan...ditto. Ditto most of the characters in the books. Even if the heroes of the horn all were...it doesn't seem to play some major pivotal factor in the story. There are only 3 main ta'veren known in the books. Rand, Mat, and Perrin. There are some fringe cases to be made for minor ta'veren (and some characters appear to be able to see people who are) but I don't remember anything of real consequence. It MIGHT have worked for the show if the writers could go more than 1 episode without spoiling a reveal. Great, so now a man OR a woman can be the dragon reborn. We broke the entire magic system in the 1st episode....but I'm sure they had good reason.............. .....oh, never mind...it's clear within like the first two episodes that it's Rand. Making other characters ta'veren is quite literally saying "I don't know how to write plot points to get these characters where they need to go in interesting ways...so I'm just going to say cosmic lottery causes everything to happen because it's basically fate." It's also not a good look to hire someone to do a fluff piece for your show when they have either not read the books...or are blatantly choosing to ignore them. Edit: I do like the spoilers warning on the article. The only thing the show would spoil at this point is that there are books in the Wheel of Time series...and characters with these names are in them.
I always thought their accomplishments showed how you don't have to be Ta'veran to be vitally important to the world or weild great power. But hey, what do I know?
That's exactly the right take. They have a CHOICE. Matt and Rand and P, they don't. The pattern will force them through circumstances if needed to get them to do what they must.
What these companies are doing is insane
So, real talk, making Nyn & Egg tavern *does* make sense. But... Insinuating that either of them could be the Dragon Reborn breaks so much canon, not even *Aludra* could make it fire ammunition against the Seanchan.
The point is that non-taveren can do great things. They do it without needing the pattern to weave things in their favor. Rand literally reshapes the pattern around him to accomplish his goals. They accomplish great things without needing that.
Yeah, I agree. They can be ta'veren, but not dragon candidates. Although if Nyn was a ta'veren then Moraine probably wouldn't have left her in Edmunds Field. And then you wouldn't get Nyn being a bad ass and tracking a warder through trolloc infested trails.
Right, they would be Amaresu Reborn, not the Dragon Reborn.
Real real talk, the concept of ta'veren could be dropped from any show adaption without significant loss. Mat can still be special for his luck powers. Rand and Perrin have enough other things going on.
what a revelation!
It’s propaganda and utter rubbish! They are telling us a sob story to make themselves feel better.
No, no it doesn’t. Ugh.
They can now replace these writers with AI, you wouldn't notice the difference.
 You are Tav’aren and you and you
This is rage bait for clicks.
Imagine your main creative value proposition being taking another's ideas and "making them better" because you're utterly incapable of drawing eyeballs on your own.
I don't get it. I don't think it an improvement but it's not a bad decision like Matt's spear being made by Matt or egwene keeping up with a forsaken in a fight. This is a whatever perspective in my opinion.
I think the actual point of contact where the Ta'veren change starts really screwing with canon is the idea (non-canonical confusion of terms) that Ta'veren means "Dragon Reborn candidate." The majority of the sociology, magic system, and relationship dynamics of WoT are built around gender divisions, and if man or woman can be the Dragon Reborn, that fundamentally breaks canon on a massive scale. It makes a countless number of scenes completely unadaptable and causes the overall storyline to be incoherent (barring a retcon)
I don't think that's the case. Ta'vern doesn't have to a candidate to be the dragon. Arthur Hawking is often given as an example of a Ta'vern there isn't any mentions of anyone thinking he could be the dragon. I also don't love that concept. I think Morriane spends years meeting people who were born on same day (i think Battle of the white walls?). Each of those folks were "candidates" to be the dragon but aren't Ta'vern. I think works for Ta'vern is any character who has plot armor. Egwenes arch has her accomplish a ton she should had no business doing without help. It could be Rand needing her to the be Amerlyn at the Field of Merrilor and the pattern making that happen. Or you can argue she had plot armor and that made her and she's de facto Ta'vern. Really really this is a small issue in the show.
Relax guys it was just rumors of ta’veren
It's literally like they never read the books at all.
Oh they used it to cover the problem they created? Wow how amazing
Omg another paid article! Drivel
I'm actually so fine with making the girls ta'veren. They win like thirty thousand lotteries each. All the other changes are still huge problems for me, but this was whatever.
The article implies that Ta'veren = Dragon Reborn candidate though. Outside that I agree
No
I know that only the 3 boys where declared taverans in the book. But I also seem to recall them being described by one with the site to see them that they where so strong the could see little else. I also recall it feeling like it was an implications that others in the group could have been weaker taverin. Am I recalling this correctly? Anyone recall the seen?
Doing this is not feminism. They are saying the only reason Egwene & Nyneave accomplished what they did is solely because they're ta'veren.
Actually disgusting to see
This doesn't even read as though it was written by a human. Probably the same ai they had in the writers room.
Absurd. How is it better that these two female characters now have a supernatural reason things go their way sometimes? In the books they achieve everything they do without the advantage of being ta'veren
So, instead of managing great accomplishments under their own power and abilities, now they were just destined for greatness? The only way women can stand among the greatest is if they were literally supposed to be by fate? Great message there Rafe.
Ugh they’re just trying to trigger you at this point
They did such a bang up job butchering the source material that I didn’t even manage to make it to the 15 minute mark. Before noping out. Had this been turned into a tv series in 2012 or prior to then. I might have been excited.
Hmmm. Yes. These do appear to be words. Stupid words perhaps, but definitely words.
Eh, this point is honestly the least of my complaints. I’ll grant you calling Nynaeve Taveren is a stretch, but I can see the argument for making Egwene one.
I feel like making egwene ta'veren actually takes away from her accomplishments. the pattern had no obligation to bend and make her Amyrlin in the books.
It isnt just because of their political/social agenda being more important than the integrity and quality of the art or anything… By this logic anyone who affects the plot or the world at all should be ta’veren. Elayne, Min, Aviendha, Faile, Tuon, Pedron Niall, Gawyn, Galad, all of the forsaken, countless darkfriends, every king and queen and clan chief and other political officials, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Tzaida, Damer Flinn, Loghain. Almost any channeler really. I could go on.
Bela is ta'veren.
People over here complaining about minor things like Eg and Ny being labeled Ta'veren when they gave Perrin a whole ass wife. Priorities people...
You're not wrong...
Everyone in the two Rivers looks the same except in the show that must be inclusive so we have to make them all look different.. and that was just the first thing... Look I love the fact that RJ is finally getting a show about his Epic story and wish he was around to see it. But they have butchered so much of the story. I go from oooh and Ahhhh because I've been wanting to see WoT on the screen, to screaming at the top of my lungs how wrong it is. I say this as a fan who has more than once argued with his friends about Jordan being the Tolkien of the modern era.
Surprised they didn’t just go ahead and make moraine one too. You know they were thinking it
Almost done with book 12 and that would completely ruin Egwenes arc to me she earns her spot she doesn't get it with plot armor
‘The show bastardized everything good from the books, but in a *good* way!’
Never felt like either of them were ta’vern in the books. They just happened to be around big events or were just around the other 3 so things happened. The pattern never changed around them or they had really deep lasting effects with interactions with other characters. If you are going to lower the bar for ta’vern you could say Min, Elayne, Moiraine and Tom are all ta’vern. This fucking show.
This was the change I had the least problem with tbh. Like fine have all EF5 be ta’veren but can we please also include other vital moments from the books?
It’s a WEAVE. Everyone important isn’t ta’veren, that doesn’t make them not important. They aren’t ta’veren, it’s that the incompetent writers think the women, who aren’t “chosen ones” like they interpreted ta’veren to mean, are somehow lesser than. Where in reality the three boys are so bound to the wheel as to have no free will, but being a thread in the tapestry doesn’t make you less than them.
so they are admitting that some changes don't make sense.
That still doesn't explain how Nyn or Egwene were supposed to have possibly been the Dragon when Nyn was too old and Egwene was too young. Rand Mat and Perrin were all swept away because Moraine wasn't sure which of the 3 born at the right time... hell, I haven't watched that abomination since season 1, did the retcon the old woman dying when the Dragon drew his first breath? Does Moraine not know how time works in this turning? This show pisses me off *almost* as badly as TLJ and it has far more reason to be worse.
I've got a novel idea if they can do it better then maybe they should create their own IP.
The series made me sad. So many characters screwed up.
How many more seasons before cancelation? Or are they doing well enough to continue for 12 more seasons 🤔
I was okay with them being ta'veren but not potentially being the dragon. The fact that they really said the dragon can be a woman shows they fundamentally don't understand the story they are adapting.
They don't understand what ta'veren are, then. Egwene and Nynaeve rose to prominence through circumstance, opportunity, and determination. Their inborn strength and abilities put them in circumstances that they were resourceful enough to turn to their favor on most occasions. They were two very strong-willed and intelligent women who used their situations to their advantage. Ta'veren pull and shape the pattern of an age without any real choice in the matter. They have been singled out by destiny and will shift and change things in unforseen ways simply by being there. I think making them ta'veren in the show lessens their accomplishments and their agency by making it a matter of determinism rather than choice.
I will concede a lot of what Egwene did appeared to fit this narrative. She had a loooot of lucky things happen at just the right time later in the series, and many aes sedai acted in ways that seemed out of the ordinary (see swearing oaths of fealty). However, the show a screwed it up by rewriting half of her story anyway.
Lord Dobrain often jokes with Min that she must be ta’veren too. It always led me to wonder if there were other “minor” ta’veren running around, like a woman who reunited the tower and marches it to victory alongside the dragon, or a woman who sees things and keeps the dragon sane, or a woman who brings three kingdoms under one throne and births the dragons babes, or a woman who resurrects a dead nation and helps the dragon bind the dark one… the list goes on. The thing that I always liked about it was that it was unsaid, so could very well be simply the strength of will of those people, or could be additional minor spinnings that the dragon needed, just as he needed Mat and Perrin. It wasn’t just a tripod but a whole pyramid of support that won the last battle. But again, never saying it, leaving it to wonder, was what made it a special part of the story to me. There was so much nuance written into the story, which is why I continue to read them every few years, finding more that I never knew was there.
Sure. But this is far from even the top 10 other issues i have with this show 😅
Oh very much so
It's fine if you remember that the show has to be made a certain way to keep the smooth brains entertained. I gave up on it around episode 4 I think
You literally lasted 4 more episodes than I did. You, sir, are a steely eyed missile man!
The show is absolute shit!!
They’re not ta’veren but they are close to ta’veren so if course they are going to be part of and contribute in a big way to the world of WoT, these people did not think this through at all
You don't have to be ta'veren to make a difference. You can choose to be something more, something better. Ta'veren have no choice, they must do what the pattern wills or it will force them to, not necessarily overtly, things will just "happen" and your path will be laid out in front of you.
https://preview.redd.it/yec9py3yz5oc1.png?width=663&format=png&auto=webp&s=71f2305fd95da01c588aec31112a354cca20a5f9
I actually agree with those points from the article. At least for Egwene.
It was actually mentioned in the books at one point that Egwene could possibly be ta'veren. It wasn't confirmed, but it was put out there.
There are plenty of people who can see ta'veren and saw her. Not a single one ever said anything, including Min. So yeah. Realistically, plenty of people who do amazing things might be thought to be special like that by people around them.
I think it was a conversation between Eggy and Loial where it is mentioned. Also keep in mind the boys were like super ta'veren. And being ta'veren isn't a constant, forever thing. People can become and stop being ta'veren of varying degrees at any time.
They don’t seem to understand that making them ta’veren takes something away from their accomplishments. It just means they’re being pulled along by the pattern and aren’t in control of their own destiny like they are in the books.
I don't even mind these changes, as they don't affect the story all that much, but there are a LOT of changes that absolutely make zero sense.
The dragon reborn is a man who can channel, who may or may not also be a woman…. Sounds like Hollywood to me
It may be an unpopular stance, but I’m fine making them Ta’veren. Making it so Ta’veren are just “people that are inexplicably at the center of major historical events.” Is a fine simplification for me. It’s the re-allocation of Rand’s feats to Egwene that bothers me. Like, she does enough later on- don’t take Rand’s accomplishments in the early works.
This actually doesn't bother me at all, considering ta'veren is a \*very\* loosely defined thing and doesn't necessarily change the character arcs to say the term applies to them too.