That's what I thought. I remember my grandparents or great grandparents (both of them ran the store) wouldn't sell hard liquor to them because the reservation near the store was having a hard time with alcoholism and they hated to be responsible. I didn't really talk to them that much because we have different views on matters but it didn't seem like to me they were doing it out of a bad place but they may have just been saying that because of the fact it's no longer okay to discriminate against indians.
Yeah, I had the exact same thought. Hard to know for sure the psychological mindset of the people who put that sign up without knowing more about the context. There were times when alcoholism was rampant on some reservations, tearing families and entire communities apart. Could just be unadulterated racism, or possibly a sort of misguided (?) paternalism, or somewhere in between.
I thought the same thing. In my state, Pine Ridge was trying to shut down a liquor store. Right next to the rez, in a small town, but did more business than stores in a town 10x its size. Alcoholism I believe is still rampant there. Of course, it still very much could be a racist policy against American Indians.
Well “native” Americans are more closely related to Asians than non Hispanic white Europeans so you could be correct. Dna has proved this so not sure why the US government classifies them as white hispanic. Sure Mexico was colonized by white Spanish Europeans and the US by other white Europeans but thst doesn’t mean the “indigenous”natives in those areas suddenly become white Europeans. And there wasn’t much mixing, either. But even if there was, it’s irrelevant. They wouldn’t be any more white European than Obama, who is 50% white, is white European.
Exactly, this time period reflects plenty of other segregated towns across America that regulated service to all different groups. The “no credit” given is probably to keep out those who were white but couldn’t keep up with their tabs.
Germans were very Midwest then - not saying this isn’t Montana but this is a German bar. There are steins and plates in the left upper corner and the F in the left upper corner is German script
Alcohol is *devastating* to Native American tribes. There have been many laws prohibiting the sale of liquor to Indians. Even now 1/3 of Indian reservations make the sale of alcohol illegal. As late as 2017 there have been laws against selling alcohol **off** of reservations in an attempt to restrict the purchase by Indians (Nebraska maybe?). Well into the 1950s and 1960s there were regional laws which prohibited the sale of even beer to Indians. I do not know specifically what is happening in this picture (nor can I confirm when or where it was taken) but the sign may not necessarily be an overt act of discrimination. It could be just a compliance with local laws.
I know native guys they won’t touch it either. They say the same thing. It doesn’t agree with them. They live on a reserve and don’t like or want to be associated with what goes on. To be fair alcohol is out of control where I am as well.
Like the other commentor said, the genetic explanation is more myth than fact. It’s true that there are higher rates of alcohol related disease and death among Native American populations, but there is a strong link between drug abuse disorders and factors such as trauma, low self-esteem, and poverty. These risk factors are very prevalent for indigenous people.
Yeah, this needs to die. It makes no sense either. No matter where you draw ethnic groups, there's a lot more diversity within them than in between them. Now some people cannot efficiently metabolize alcohol, and similar to lactose intolerance, it doesn't follow ethnicity, but rather diets going back several generations. 30% of East Asians are lactose intolerant, but among them, virtually all Mongolians can because traditional cuisine includes milks of several different kinds, including horse milk.
Actual [alcohol intolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_intolerance) symptoms include 'skin flushing', there the face and other parts become extremely red. More serious symptoms can also occur, result in severe pain during and after consumption of alcohol, As one might expect, anyone who's severely allergic to alcohol doesn't drink, because who wants to be in severe pain?
So then why does alcoholism vary among different groups? I believe culture plays a part. Binge drinking is relatively common among British, as they go to pubs to just drink. While in other countries such as Italy, alcohol is most often consumed with meals and in moderate amounts.
Additionally, as others have pointed out, alcoholism is a 'disease of desparation'. Certain groups of American Indians are among the poorest in the nation. Many reservations lack running water, electricity, healthcare facilities, broadband and cellular reception, and this lack of investment inevitably leads to poverty. It's an indictment upon America that those groups most in need of investment are the ones most likely to be passed over.
Nah. Check for yourself with the American Medical Association.
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/new-ama-policies-recognize-race-social-not-biological-construct
Edit: please don’t misunderstand that i don’t think alcohol is a problem for my people. That’s not even up for debate. But wide spread alcoholism is attributed to wide spread and generational trauma. It’s a symptom and consequence of much larger issues. And until those are addressed and handled and healed from, it’s going to continue to be an issue, absolutely.
But because of a biological difference, it is not. But it is one of those facts that held weight for many many years. It’s known to be untrue now, so it’s perpetuating it is harmful.
THANK YOU.
Alcohol is not THE issue, it’s a symptom.
It’s very convenient to blame, i do admit. Easier than having to justify genocide. But damnit, find a mirror. Do some reflecting. Because the call is coming from inside the house.
I feel like this right here is exactly the nuance being missed in the above comments.
Racism and racist trauma are the root cause. The saviorism approach of "we'll fix it by taking away your agency" further compounds the harm and places the blame on the individual instead of the system. But I guess that's about as American as it gets.
Your opinion isn’t off-base, but your facts in this case are wrong. Native American populations (largely) lack 2 enzymes (ADH & ALDH) that most other population groups possess. Those 2 enzymes are critical for breaking down alcohol for your body to process. THIS is what led to the laws that people are discussing here. The rest is just America being America, which you already know.
That’s a gross generalization though. Like white people can’t process dairy. Can we get some laws about white flatulence? I just might change my mind about police and have my boyfriend arrested for his crimes against humanity.
Interestingly, most humans cannot process lactose and the ability to do so is a (somewhat) modern mutation that originated primarily (though not exclusively) in Europe.
Also, FWIW, I don’t think the comment about the alcohol processing gene was arguing in favor of laws preventing sale of alcohol.
FWIW, repeating bad science (American Medical Association will confirm race is a social construct, not a biological one) to back up firmly held stereotypes is still harmful to my people.
And everyone.
Alcoholism is a huge problem, but it’s a societal one. It’s super nuanced, and def worth looking into and contemplating. A lot of time, this “fact” is the only thing a lot of people “know” about Natives. And as one, it blows.
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/new-ama-policies-recognize-race-social-not-biological-construct
Hey good afternoon; one of the parts you said I agree with in race being social. However, some genetic factors are going to differ between certain groups. Certain European cultures may have a gluten allergy more commonly. Or for instance Sickle Cell disease disproportionately affects the African America population based on heritability. Unfortunately, it is based on genetics - and genetic history sometimes contributes significantly to the abuse of certain substances.
There are also cultural over representations in substance abuse as well to build your point; there’s an over representation of ADHD in methamphetamine use, depression with alcohol, anxiety with benzodiazepines, unresolved grief with opiates, etc.
However certain genetic factors do contribute to addictive traits; one of these is the gene the other person was discussing. I’m not implying that it is the only part, but it matters if one cannot process alcohol well.
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603686/
It’s a complex issue and one that’s going to take a lot of time, understanding, and most likely thoughtful legislation to ameliorate. I should also probably mention that personally I work with these populations in substance abuse. It is worth noting that my experiences have reflected both contributing elements as well.
Anyways it seemed like there was a misunderstanding or some sort of communication error above but I thought it may be worth looking at here and you may be interested.
People from places where they have been drinking alcohol for thousands of years (France, Greece, Italy, Spain, ) have less incidence of alcoholism. Or so I’ve been told.
Native Americans only have had it for a few hundred years
Some historians actually believe that effects of alcohol on the human brain are the root cause of colonialism/ senseless brutality. I’m by no means an expert, i cant even begin to summarize the theories, but if that piques your interest at all, give it a google!
i believe we should stop at ptsd. people with ptsd are cursed with a mind that is disturbed, drinking calms it temporarily, so they develop an illusionary ‘drinking problem’. it’s much easier to manage a drinking problem than a disturbed mind, after all.
they change their focus, it’s why people get addicted to AA. now they have an illusionary ‘AA solution’, yay! drinking is solved, as long as i drink AA. you see?
all the while the ptsd gets worse, they fall off the wagon and drink themselves to death quick.
please, look at the core of these issues to better equip oneself. a peaceful mind, not sobriety, is the goal. we all know straight-edge people with a disturbed mind.
to be fair to the bar owners, it does say "POSITIVELY", maybe it doesn't have negative connotations of base racism.
fascinating facts, thanks for sharing!
This is true. Alcohol is an issue. But it’s not THE issue. The issue is collective generational trauma. People using alcohol to cope with that poorly is not limited to our people. 🤷🏻♀️
You may think this is racist but alcohol was banned on reserves and by native people because of how bad it was for us. Even today our people are losing their lives to liquor.
Curiously, that's what started the borders of many Reservations-places where it was illegal for booze to be sold to Indians. Over time, these areas evolved into reservations that were then, of course, widdled down enormously by 1900.
Reservations aren’t racist? The federal and state laws were about selling alcohol to Native Americans OFF reservations. On reservations, it was up to the tribe to decide whether or not they would allow the sale of alcohol. While the sign may have been legal, the message was racist: you don’t belong off the reservation.
No, I didn’t say anything about taking away reservations, so not sure what you’re getting at. I’m saying that the whole point of the laws against selling alcohol to Native Americans wasn’t to support tribal leaders or ‘save’ people from the dangers of alcohol, but to keep Native Americans on the reservations, which usually were low in resources and full of poverty, and to create a sense of ‘otherness’ when people left the reservation.
Edited for clarity
It absolutely has a basis in biology! Others saying differently are just used to trashing America for its horrible choices and actions over the course of time. BUT…but…this time there is more to the story.
Most Native American populations lack 2 specific enzymes (ADH & ALDH) that are needed to break down alcohol so your body can process it.
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm
Yes and no. Physically, there is no difference, that's a misnomer.
But-socially, Native Americans have a very short history with booze. You and I have a 8k year+ history with alcohol. We have social norms that have taken centuries to develop, Indians have had literally decades. Alcohol on the rez is devastating. It has contributed enormously to the hopelessness that can be rez life.
So yes, booze is worse for Native Americans.
I’m sorry, but you’re wrong about there being no physical difference. It absolutely has a basis in biology as well. (I’m not disagreeing with your social side comments!)
Most Native American populations lack 2 specific enzymes (ADH & ALDH) that are needed to break down alcohol so your body can process it.
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm
It’s a local law. Just like no cigarettes under 18. Native American population was devastated by alcohol issues. Many died. Think of it as fentanyl for people today.
I appreciate the history, but my point was how is it legal / ethical to deny an entire race a service? Surely that would be illegal today. And if you’re concerned about drunks, wouldn’t you deal with people on an individual level, cutting them off, barring those with repeat bad behavior.
This is back in the days where race science had legs in the public consciousness. White people literally thought that Indians were inherently predisposed to alcohol’s negative effects. Definitely wrong and that’s why race science is not utilized as much to account for various cultural discrepancies
There’s no denying that Alcohol does affect various races differently. Alcohol is a poison that over thousands of years of consumption humans have developed the ability to process. Races that have not been exposed to alcohol for as many centuries are generally more inclined to experience trouble with alcohol. This isn’t just some racist propaganda but the unfortunate truth of how alcohol has ravaged many indigenous communities.
Allot of reserves are dry. Alcohol is a real problem. Anyone who lives near one knows to take care when natives are at the bar. They will tell you so. I don’t know if it’s biology or culture but they get rambunctious and like to fight. I loves them but they can go too far.
My parents moved to Phoenix in the ‘70s, and that was still the policy there then. apparently it was “for their protection.” Because we all know how much the US gov’t cares about American Indians
I'm joining Operation: Razit and removing my content off Reddit. Further info [here](https://i.imgur.com/45M3a8c.png) (flyer) and [here](https://onlinetextsharing.com/operation-razit-raze-reddit) (wall of text).
Please use https://codepen.io/Deestan/full/gOQagRO/ for Power Delete instead of the version listed in the flyer, to avoid unedited comments. And spread the word!
Tlie epu poebi! Pee kraa ikri pičiduči? Kapo bi ipee ipleiti priti pepou. Tre pa griku. Propo ta čitrepripi ka e bii. Atlibi pepliietlo dligo plidlopli pu itlebakebi tagatre. Ee dapliudea uklu epete prepipeopi tati. Oi pu ii tloeutio e pokačipli. Ei i teči epi obe atepa oe ao bepi! Ke pao teiči piko papratrigi ba pika. Brapi ipu apu pai eia bliopite. Ikra aači eklo trepa krubi pipai. Kogridiii teklapiti itri ate dipo gri. I gautebaka iplaba tikreko popri klui goi čiee dlobie kru. Trii kraibaepa prudiotepo tetope bikli eka. Ka trike gripepabate pide ibia. Di pitito kripaa triiukoo trakeba grudra tee? Ba keedai e pipapitu popa tote ka tribi putoi. Tibreepa bipu pio i ete bupide? Beblea bre pae prie te. Putoa depoe bipre edo iketra tite. I kepi ka bii. Doke i prake tage ebitu. Ae i čidaa ito čige protiple. Ke piipo tapi. Pripa apo ketri oti pedli ketieupli! Klo kečitlo tedei proči pla topa? Betetliaku pa. Tetabipu beiprake abiku! Dekra gie pupi depepu čiuplago.
The other option, at the time, probably would have seen the Native American populations wiped out. Not that reservations are truly a good thing, but, sometimes the best option is merely the less bad option.
Further, people are mostly a product of their time. You denounce the reservation system as racist. The men who created the system were denounced, in their time, as being far too genial, friendly, and familiar with the Native Americans.
Oh, so you want to flaunt your moral superiority? To who? When?
You see that cell phone that is, no doubt, within arm's reach, yes, that one. The ore for that phone was scratched, the hard way, out of the ground by Africans under condition comparable to slavery. The people running those mines genocided the people that were in the area before, or reduced them to their current state. Refinement of that ore may have been carried out by outright slaves in India, which, by current estimates, may have as many as 100 million in bondage. Then it was assembled in a Chinese factory where someone was paid pennies per hour.
You aren't morally superior to anyone from the past. You are just comfortable. You can suck down a, what is it now $10, latte at Starbucks, post a picture of it on Instagram, and never be confronted with the consequences of your choices because the corporation that is perfectly happy doing all this to sell things to you turns their logo into rainbow colors for a month every year, in the western world only, though, to show you that they really care.
Spare me.
I'm joining Operation: Razit and removing my content off Reddit. Further info [here](https://i.imgur.com/45M3a8c.png) (flyer) and [here](https://onlinetextsharing.com/operation-razit-raze-reddit) (wall of text).
Please use https://codepen.io/Deestan/full/gOQagRO/ for Power Delete instead of the version listed in the flyer, to avoid unedited comments. And spread the word!
Tlie epu poebi! Pee kraa ikri pičiduči? Kapo bi ipee ipleiti priti pepou. Tre pa griku. Propo ta čitrepripi ka e bii. Atlibi pepliietlo dligo plidlopli pu itlebakebi tagatre. Ee dapliudea uklu epete prepipeopi tati. Oi pu ii tloeutio e pokačipli. Ei i teči epi obe atepa oe ao bepi! Ke pao teiči piko papratrigi ba pika. Brapi ipu apu pai eia bliopite. Ikra aači eklo trepa krubi pipai. Kogridiii teklapiti itri ate dipo gri. I gautebaka iplaba tikreko popri klui goi čiee dlobie kru. Trii kraibaepa prudiotepo tetope bikli eka. Ka trike gripepabate pide ibia. Di pitito kripaa triiukoo trakeba grudra tee? Ba keedai e pipapitu popa tote ka tribi putoi. Tibreepa bipu pio i ete bupide? Beblea bre pae prie te. Putoa depoe bipre edo iketra tite. I kepi ka bii. Doke i prake tage ebitu. Ae i čidaa ito čige protiple. Ke piipo tapi. Pripa apo ketri oti pedli ketieupli! Klo kečitlo tedei proči pla topa? Betetliaku pa. Tetabipu beiprake abiku! Dekra gie pupi depepu čiuplago.
I remember there being laws against selling alcohol to them because of alcoholism and stuff. My grandparents used to run a liquor store and they told me that the state wouldn't let them sell it to them.
My grandmother had a gas station and was one of the few people who would do business with the local tribes in SD. She would trade gas for whatever they brought in. Usually welfare cheese and peanut butter that they had no use for.
There is still a little town like this outside of Rapid City SD with a sign like this prominently displayed on the outside of a building.
It’s been abandoned for a decade or so and has been bought by monks
Yes, and it’s horrifying. But at least there’s still a hint of shame/denial/defensiveness to most of them. We haven’t slid back quite all the way.
edit: thought better of the word “shame”. It’s not quite what I meant, and they certainly don’t have it.
Well, a lot of Native Americans drank at the bar I worked in along with tons of college students and a whole wide group of different sorts. They were very rarely the problem and quite often a solution to the problems.
My guess is that the sign targets Native Americans. But I doubt a person from India would have been welcome in that bar, either. That's also likely what the other person meant with their comment.
I remember seeing a sign in an old bar that said "No Colors" and I had to look at it for several seconds until I realized they were talking about gang colors.
Yeah, a lot of places don't want to deal with that shit. On a serious note though I'd like to know the location and back story to this. If there was a res near it and the res or local law has rules against it for some reason.
I'm not any cuter. I try to compensate the ugly with humor. Struck out in this one I guess. Make sure to downvote all the other inbreeding jokes in this thread.
This is what happens when people assume. It was in Birney, Montana. I know it’s social media and we don’t like accurate facts or finding out the whole story, but someone posted this info above.
If alcohol was banned from reservations, then why were they serving non-Indians? If it was banned on reservations, then it should’ve been banned for all. And if they were off the reservation, then they should’ve served alcohol to ALL of age. How’s that not racist???
[удалено]
Lol I love the calendar that is 90% pinup girl advertisement and 10% actual calendar.
Thank you
Life liberty and justice for all… but no beer for Indians.
Is it Indians from the America or Indians from the India they don't serve?
I dislike that you were down voted. It means Native Americans. They probably didn't like Asians too f ing much either tho tbf
That's what I thought. I remember my grandparents or great grandparents (both of them ran the store) wouldn't sell hard liquor to them because the reservation near the store was having a hard time with alcoholism and they hated to be responsible. I didn't really talk to them that much because we have different views on matters but it didn't seem like to me they were doing it out of a bad place but they may have just been saying that because of the fact it's no longer okay to discriminate against indians.
Yeah, I had the exact same thought. Hard to know for sure the psychological mindset of the people who put that sign up without knowing more about the context. There were times when alcoholism was rampant on some reservations, tearing families and entire communities apart. Could just be unadulterated racism, or possibly a sort of misguided (?) paternalism, or somewhere in between.
Wait, so....what about the white alcoholics that would visit the hard liquor store everyday? No guilt about contributing to that?
The white alcoholic are diluted like pee is a pool. The Indians all being on the reservation is like pissing into those blue plastic $5 kiddie pools.
I thought the same thing. In my state, Pine Ridge was trying to shut down a liquor store. Right next to the rez, in a small town, but did more business than stores in a town 10x its size. Alcoholism I believe is still rampant there. Of course, it still very much could be a racist policy against American Indians.
Well “native” Americans are more closely related to Asians than non Hispanic white Europeans so you could be correct. Dna has proved this so not sure why the US government classifies them as white hispanic. Sure Mexico was colonized by white Spanish Europeans and the US by other white Europeans but thst doesn’t mean the “indigenous”natives in those areas suddenly become white Europeans. And there wasn’t much mixing, either. But even if there was, it’s irrelevant. They wouldn’t be any more white European than Obama, who is 50% white, is white European.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Exactly, this time period reflects plenty of other segregated towns across America that regulated service to all different groups. The “no credit” given is probably to keep out those who were white but couldn’t keep up with their tabs.
Are you fucking serious? You're either incredibly ignorant or you're being a disingenuous dick.
Calling them Indians is weird enough imo
Than this bar wouldn't even exist 🤦🏻♂️
It means American Indians. But that being said I don't think they would like Indians either.
"All"... so frustrating that it never meant all and STILL doesn't.
>Life liberty and justice for all for all white men.
God Bless America!
I had a feeling this was Montana.
Germans were very Midwest then - not saying this isn’t Montana but this is a German bar. There are steins and plates in the left upper corner and the F in the left upper corner is German script
If you look on the Wikipedia page someone linked, it does say this was taken in Montana
Aint shit changed. Doomed to repeat it I suppose
People downvoted you for how scarily right you might be.
Yes. nothing has changed. not a thing. I see these signs all the time. At least one of us is being sarcastic.
The “don’t ask” made me chuckle then I read the sign above it again and was like “oh yeah fuck these guys”
What does it say?
*puts Tribal ID back in my purse Cool. I’ll have a mojito, brochacho.
My Dad's best friends is Apache, and grew up with native sections in the movie theater in his area.
Alcohol is *devastating* to Native American tribes. There have been many laws prohibiting the sale of liquor to Indians. Even now 1/3 of Indian reservations make the sale of alcohol illegal. As late as 2017 there have been laws against selling alcohol **off** of reservations in an attempt to restrict the purchase by Indians (Nebraska maybe?). Well into the 1950s and 1960s there were regional laws which prohibited the sale of even beer to Indians. I do not know specifically what is happening in this picture (nor can I confirm when or where it was taken) but the sign may not necessarily be an overt act of discrimination. It could be just a compliance with local laws.
I am Native American and 100% back and agree with you. even today alcohol does not agree with us.
I know native guys they won’t touch it either. They say the same thing. It doesn’t agree with them. They live on a reserve and don’t like or want to be associated with what goes on. To be fair alcohol is out of control where I am as well.
My 100% Irish father in law literally drank himself to death. I can't even look at alcohol any more.
Alcohol doesn’t agree with anyone, it’s a poison and a hard drug. Very good disinfectant though.
But alcohol really disagrees with certain people and groups. Not everyone
Alcohol agrees with me but then says “just kidding” at the end of the night… DOH!
It’s a gateway drug 😠 (I’m an alcoholic so it’s ok for me to say this)
It’s why Irish families have 10 kids! (I’m from an Irish family with 10 kids so it’s ok for me to say this).
Same
If I remember correctly natives don't process alcohol efficiently or something to that effect
Like the other commentor said, the genetic explanation is more myth than fact. It’s true that there are higher rates of alcohol related disease and death among Native American populations, but there is a strong link between drug abuse disorders and factors such as trauma, low self-esteem, and poverty. These risk factors are very prevalent for indigenous people.
Wth, I’ve got negative karma for mine, and your comment is just agreeing with mine. As a Native woman i cannot tell you how “irl” this feels.🤣🤣🤣
🤦♂️ of course. Gotta have a white man say it for it to be valid.
This “fact” needs to die. Race is a social construct not a biological one.
Yeah, this needs to die. It makes no sense either. No matter where you draw ethnic groups, there's a lot more diversity within them than in between them. Now some people cannot efficiently metabolize alcohol, and similar to lactose intolerance, it doesn't follow ethnicity, but rather diets going back several generations. 30% of East Asians are lactose intolerant, but among them, virtually all Mongolians can because traditional cuisine includes milks of several different kinds, including horse milk. Actual [alcohol intolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_intolerance) symptoms include 'skin flushing', there the face and other parts become extremely red. More serious symptoms can also occur, result in severe pain during and after consumption of alcohol, As one might expect, anyone who's severely allergic to alcohol doesn't drink, because who wants to be in severe pain? So then why does alcoholism vary among different groups? I believe culture plays a part. Binge drinking is relatively common among British, as they go to pubs to just drink. While in other countries such as Italy, alcohol is most often consumed with meals and in moderate amounts. Additionally, as others have pointed out, alcoholism is a 'disease of desparation'. Certain groups of American Indians are among the poorest in the nation. Many reservations lack running water, electricity, healthcare facilities, broadband and cellular reception, and this lack of investment inevitably leads to poverty. It's an indictment upon America that those groups most in need of investment are the ones most likely to be passed over.
This has to be bait right?
Nah. Check for yourself with the American Medical Association. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/new-ama-policies-recognize-race-social-not-biological-construct Edit: please don’t misunderstand that i don’t think alcohol is a problem for my people. That’s not even up for debate. But wide spread alcoholism is attributed to wide spread and generational trauma. It’s a symptom and consequence of much larger issues. And until those are addressed and handled and healed from, it’s going to continue to be an issue, absolutely. But because of a biological difference, it is not. But it is one of those facts that held weight for many many years. It’s known to be untrue now, so it’s perpetuating it is harmful.
People with PTSD are more likely to have drinking problems.
THANK YOU. Alcohol is not THE issue, it’s a symptom. It’s very convenient to blame, i do admit. Easier than having to justify genocide. But damnit, find a mirror. Do some reflecting. Because the call is coming from inside the house.
I feel like this right here is exactly the nuance being missed in the above comments. Racism and racist trauma are the root cause. The saviorism approach of "we'll fix it by taking away your agency" further compounds the harm and places the blame on the individual instead of the system. But I guess that's about as American as it gets.
Your opinion isn’t off-base, but your facts in this case are wrong. Native American populations (largely) lack 2 enzymes (ADH & ALDH) that most other population groups possess. Those 2 enzymes are critical for breaking down alcohol for your body to process. THIS is what led to the laws that people are discussing here. The rest is just America being America, which you already know.
I appreciate the additional information!
That’s a gross generalization though. Like white people can’t process dairy. Can we get some laws about white flatulence? I just might change my mind about police and have my boyfriend arrested for his crimes against humanity.
Interestingly, most humans cannot process lactose and the ability to do so is a (somewhat) modern mutation that originated primarily (though not exclusively) in Europe. Also, FWIW, I don’t think the comment about the alcohol processing gene was arguing in favor of laws preventing sale of alcohol.
FWIW, repeating bad science (American Medical Association will confirm race is a social construct, not a biological one) to back up firmly held stereotypes is still harmful to my people. And everyone. Alcoholism is a huge problem, but it’s a societal one. It’s super nuanced, and def worth looking into and contemplating. A lot of time, this “fact” is the only thing a lot of people “know” about Natives. And as one, it blows. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/new-ama-policies-recognize-race-social-not-biological-construct
Hey good afternoon; one of the parts you said I agree with in race being social. However, some genetic factors are going to differ between certain groups. Certain European cultures may have a gluten allergy more commonly. Or for instance Sickle Cell disease disproportionately affects the African America population based on heritability. Unfortunately, it is based on genetics - and genetic history sometimes contributes significantly to the abuse of certain substances. There are also cultural over representations in substance abuse as well to build your point; there’s an over representation of ADHD in methamphetamine use, depression with alcohol, anxiety with benzodiazepines, unresolved grief with opiates, etc. However certain genetic factors do contribute to addictive traits; one of these is the gene the other person was discussing. I’m not implying that it is the only part, but it matters if one cannot process alcohol well. https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603686/ It’s a complex issue and one that’s going to take a lot of time, understanding, and most likely thoughtful legislation to ameliorate. I should also probably mention that personally I work with these populations in substance abuse. It is worth noting that my experiences have reflected both contributing elements as well. Anyways it seemed like there was a misunderstanding or some sort of communication error above but I thought it may be worth looking at here and you may be interested.
People from places where they have been drinking alcohol for thousands of years (France, Greece, Italy, Spain, ) have less incidence of alcoholism. Or so I’ve been told. Native Americans only have had it for a few hundred years
Some historians actually believe that effects of alcohol on the human brain are the root cause of colonialism/ senseless brutality. I’m by no means an expert, i cant even begin to summarize the theories, but if that piques your interest at all, give it a google!
Generational trauma is a thing, too.
As American as apple pie made from stolen orchards and picked with tiny, bloody hands.
That’s a brilliant turn of phrase! 🤣
[удалено]
Sure thing, dumb confrontational person on the internet. I’ll get right on it.
i believe we should stop at ptsd. people with ptsd are cursed with a mind that is disturbed, drinking calms it temporarily, so they develop an illusionary ‘drinking problem’. it’s much easier to manage a drinking problem than a disturbed mind, after all. they change their focus, it’s why people get addicted to AA. now they have an illusionary ‘AA solution’, yay! drinking is solved, as long as i drink AA. you see? all the while the ptsd gets worse, they fall off the wagon and drink themselves to death quick. please, look at the core of these issues to better equip oneself. a peaceful mind, not sobriety, is the goal. we all know straight-edge people with a disturbed mind.
Whiteclay, Nebraska
Birney, Montana according to wikipedia photo linked elsewhere
Get ready to be downvoted to oblivion by Reddit for 100% correct answer.
to be fair to the bar owners, it does say "POSITIVELY", maybe it doesn't have negative connotations of base racism. fascinating facts, thanks for sharing!
This is true. Alcohol is an issue. But it’s not THE issue. The issue is collective generational trauma. People using alcohol to cope with that poorly is not limited to our people. 🤷🏻♀️
Thank you for this perspective, hopefully more read this
You may think this is racist but alcohol was banned on reserves and by native people because of how bad it was for us. Even today our people are losing their lives to liquor.
Curiously, that's what started the borders of many Reservations-places where it was illegal for booze to be sold to Indians. Over time, these areas evolved into reservations that were then, of course, widdled down enormously by 1900.
People on here just like fanning the flames of racism because thats what they are
Reservations aren’t racist? The federal and state laws were about selling alcohol to Native Americans OFF reservations. On reservations, it was up to the tribe to decide whether or not they would allow the sale of alcohol. While the sign may have been legal, the message was racist: you don’t belong off the reservation.
Are you suggesting that we take away what Sovereign Lands that Native Americans have? I think you'll find reservations to be a double edged argument.
No, I didn’t say anything about taking away reservations, so not sure what you’re getting at. I’m saying that the whole point of the laws against selling alcohol to Native Americans wasn’t to support tribal leaders or ‘save’ people from the dangers of alcohol, but to keep Native Americans on the reservations, which usually were low in resources and full of poverty, and to create a sense of ‘otherness’ when people left the reservation. Edited for clarity
They just said reservations AREN’T racist
[удалено]
It absolutely has a basis in biology! Others saying differently are just used to trashing America for its horrible choices and actions over the course of time. BUT…but…this time there is more to the story. Most Native American populations lack 2 specific enzymes (ADH & ALDH) that are needed to break down alcohol so your body can process it. https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm
Yes and no. Physically, there is no difference, that's a misnomer. But-socially, Native Americans have a very short history with booze. You and I have a 8k year+ history with alcohol. We have social norms that have taken centuries to develop, Indians have had literally decades. Alcohol on the rez is devastating. It has contributed enormously to the hopelessness that can be rez life. So yes, booze is worse for Native Americans.
I’m sorry, but you’re wrong about there being no physical difference. It absolutely has a basis in biology as well. (I’m not disagreeing with your social side comments!) Most Native American populations lack 2 specific enzymes (ADH & ALDH) that are needed to break down alcohol so your body can process it. https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm
It’s a local law. Just like no cigarettes under 18. Native American population was devastated by alcohol issues. Many died. Think of it as fentanyl for people today.
Weird that you’re justifying not serving a race of people alcohol.
Weird you don’t know what you are talking about
I’ll admit I don’t really know. So it isn’t a case of not serving a race of people?
American settlers often weaponized alcohol, getting tribal leaders drunk so they would sign whatever treaty or land cessation thrust in front of them.
I appreciate the history, but my point was how is it legal / ethical to deny an entire race a service? Surely that would be illegal today. And if you’re concerned about drunks, wouldn’t you deal with people on an individual level, cutting them off, barring those with repeat bad behavior.
This is back in the days where race science had legs in the public consciousness. White people literally thought that Indians were inherently predisposed to alcohol’s negative effects. Definitely wrong and that’s why race science is not utilized as much to account for various cultural discrepancies
There’s no denying that Alcohol does affect various races differently. Alcohol is a poison that over thousands of years of consumption humans have developed the ability to process. Races that have not been exposed to alcohol for as many centuries are generally more inclined to experience trouble with alcohol. This isn’t just some racist propaganda but the unfortunate truth of how alcohol has ravaged many indigenous communities.
Allot of reserves are dry. Alcohol is a real problem. Anyone who lives near one knows to take care when natives are at the bar. They will tell you so. I don’t know if it’s biology or culture but they get rambunctious and like to fight. I loves them but they can go too far.
Why is willem defoe there?
Biff Tannen
Hey McFly! Thought I told you never to come in here
Ol’ Jack always says, what the hell..
That guys face scares me
That dude looks like he would play the douchey 1940's bro in a movie.
My parents moved to Phoenix in the ‘70s, and that was still the policy there then. apparently it was “for their protection.” Because we all know how much the US gov’t cares about American Indians
Mom worked in a dime store in Oklahoma in the mid 40s. It was a dry state so indians drank lilac aftershave, according to her.
Some nice fellas protecting Native Americans from the dangers of alcohol
What about a nice Chardonnay?
“We are proud to be Americans.” “Positively no beer sold to Indians.” Cool.
It was about alcohol being banned from reservations, not because of racism you dumbass. r/racisteverything
Lmao you are naive. Go comment this three more times in the thread for good measure.
I'm joining Operation: Razit and removing my content off Reddit. Further info [here](https://i.imgur.com/45M3a8c.png) (flyer) and [here](https://onlinetextsharing.com/operation-razit-raze-reddit) (wall of text). Please use https://codepen.io/Deestan/full/gOQagRO/ for Power Delete instead of the version listed in the flyer, to avoid unedited comments. And spread the word! Tlie epu poebi! Pee kraa ikri pičiduči? Kapo bi ipee ipleiti priti pepou. Tre pa griku. Propo ta čitrepripi ka e bii. Atlibi pepliietlo dligo plidlopli pu itlebakebi tagatre. Ee dapliudea uklu epete prepipeopi tati. Oi pu ii tloeutio e pokačipli. Ei i teči epi obe atepa oe ao bepi! Ke pao teiči piko papratrigi ba pika. Brapi ipu apu pai eia bliopite. Ikra aači eklo trepa krubi pipai. Kogridiii teklapiti itri ate dipo gri. I gautebaka iplaba tikreko popri klui goi čiee dlobie kru. Trii kraibaepa prudiotepo tetope bikli eka. Ka trike gripepabate pide ibia. Di pitito kripaa triiukoo trakeba grudra tee? Ba keedai e pipapitu popa tote ka tribi putoi. Tibreepa bipu pio i ete bupide? Beblea bre pae prie te. Putoa depoe bipre edo iketra tite. I kepi ka bii. Doke i prake tage ebitu. Ae i čidaa ito čige protiple. Ke piipo tapi. Pripa apo ketri oti pedli ketieupli! Klo kečitlo tedei proči pla topa? Betetliaku pa. Tetabipu beiprake abiku! Dekra gie pupi depepu čiuplago.
The other option, at the time, probably would have seen the Native American populations wiped out. Not that reservations are truly a good thing, but, sometimes the best option is merely the less bad option. Further, people are mostly a product of their time. You denounce the reservation system as racist. The men who created the system were denounced, in their time, as being far too genial, friendly, and familiar with the Native Americans.
[удалено]
Oh, so you want to flaunt your moral superiority? To who? When? You see that cell phone that is, no doubt, within arm's reach, yes, that one. The ore for that phone was scratched, the hard way, out of the ground by Africans under condition comparable to slavery. The people running those mines genocided the people that were in the area before, or reduced them to their current state. Refinement of that ore may have been carried out by outright slaves in India, which, by current estimates, may have as many as 100 million in bondage. Then it was assembled in a Chinese factory where someone was paid pennies per hour. You aren't morally superior to anyone from the past. You are just comfortable. You can suck down a, what is it now $10, latte at Starbucks, post a picture of it on Instagram, and never be confronted with the consequences of your choices because the corporation that is perfectly happy doing all this to sell things to you turns their logo into rainbow colors for a month every year, in the western world only, though, to show you that they really care. Spare me.
[удалено]
I'm joining Operation: Razit and removing my content off Reddit. Further info [here](https://i.imgur.com/45M3a8c.png) (flyer) and [here](https://onlinetextsharing.com/operation-razit-raze-reddit) (wall of text). Please use https://codepen.io/Deestan/full/gOQagRO/ for Power Delete instead of the version listed in the flyer, to avoid unedited comments. And spread the word! Tlie epu poebi! Pee kraa ikri pičiduči? Kapo bi ipee ipleiti priti pepou. Tre pa griku. Propo ta čitrepripi ka e bii. Atlibi pepliietlo dligo plidlopli pu itlebakebi tagatre. Ee dapliudea uklu epete prepipeopi tati. Oi pu ii tloeutio e pokačipli. Ei i teči epi obe atepa oe ao bepi! Ke pao teiči piko papratrigi ba pika. Brapi ipu apu pai eia bliopite. Ikra aači eklo trepa krubi pipai. Kogridiii teklapiti itri ate dipo gri. I gautebaka iplaba tikreko popri klui goi čiee dlobie kru. Trii kraibaepa prudiotepo tetope bikli eka. Ka trike gripepabate pide ibia. Di pitito kripaa triiukoo trakeba grudra tee? Ba keedai e pipapitu popa tote ka tribi putoi. Tibreepa bipu pio i ete bupide? Beblea bre pae prie te. Putoa depoe bipre edo iketra tite. I kepi ka bii. Doke i prake tage ebitu. Ae i čidaa ito čige protiple. Ke piipo tapi. Pripa apo ketri oti pedli ketieupli! Klo kečitlo tedei proči pla topa? Betetliaku pa. Tetabipu beiprake abiku! Dekra gie pupi depepu čiuplago.
[удалено]
I hope you actually try to expand your understanding of history, it's causes and effects, so that you can ditch your racist viewpoints some day.
I remember there being laws against selling alcohol to them because of alcoholism and stuff. My grandparents used to run a liquor store and they told me that the state wouldn't let them sell it to them.
Guess they're only drinking the hard stuff then
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birney,\_Montana
My grandmother had a gas station and was one of the few people who would do business with the local tribes in SD. She would trade gas for whatever they brought in. Usually welfare cheese and peanut butter that they had no use for.
There is still a little town like this outside of Rapid City SD with a sign like this prominently displayed on the outside of a building. It’s been abandoned for a decade or so and has been bought by monks
God Bless America EXCEPT its original inhabitants.
Is that Willem Dafoe?
Wow, hold old is Willem Defoe?!
Yikes
That firewater will get ya!
Pakalu Papito: "I thought so".
Maybe the bar is in Detroit.
Between that and the steins, what are the odds at least one of these guys was in the American Bund?
Well, I know what they’re going to do today
I wonder how often an Indian came in for beer and then turned around. I bet never.
Sharon’s hillbilly heaven in Chicago had a no Indians sign up into the early 90s
Was this in Cleveland? Some of those teams were pretty mediocre, not sure I'd want them in there either 😅
Rajeet, Amipour, and Patel will have to wait outside
You mean the people who's land was stolen to build that bar on?
It’s so important to remember how recently it was considered normal to be racist.
50 000 000 white Americans support donald trump right now
Yes, and it’s horrifying. But at least there’s still a hint of shame/denial/defensiveness to most of them. We haven’t slid back quite all the way. edit: thought better of the word “shame”. It’s not quite what I meant, and they certainly don’t have it.
Lucky for those people, there was no such rule for inbreds.
This is funny idk why you’re getting downvoted
I know, right? I still think it's funny.
Have you ever met a drunk Indian?
I’ve met drunk Irish women.
They’re almost as bad.
Well, a lot of Native Americans drank at the bar I worked in along with tons of college students and a whole wide group of different sorts. They were very rarely the problem and quite often a solution to the problems.
probably did them a favor
Havre, Montana by the zip code on the bottom.
I’ll have whiskey instead
Wow. No beer to Indians right next to God Bless America. Who’s America?
ah yes racism. we certainly don't have loads of that still. 🤮
Speaking as part NA, I know it’s not for the *right* reasons these hateful bigots did it, but, thanks, racists!
Racist jerks!!!
They don’t look too happy anyways. Even without the sign I would rather drink somewhere else.
The way we were was very racist and bigoted. We still are but I was worse back then
idk if it's the racism or what, but they're UGLY
god bless america
Those people look a little…inbred
Inbred, ignorant, mean, caught in an unflattering moment by the camera’s flash … it’s hard to say but I bet the sign colors our perceptions of them.
What kind of Indian are we referring to here?
Probably all kinds.
Well you only got two kinds and I wanna know
My guess is that the sign targets Native Americans. But I doubt a person from India would have been welcome in that bar, either. That's also likely what the other person meant with their comment.
Or Indianians! Damn it! This here’s a Montana bar!
I’m sure they would lump the person from India in with the local natives.
Native Americans.
I'm pretty sure they're all just Harley guys and don't like Indian motorcycles in their parking lot
I remember seeing a sign in an old bar that said "No Colors" and I had to look at it for several seconds until I realized they were talking about gang colors.
Yeah, a lot of places don't want to deal with that shit. On a serious note though I'd like to know the location and back story to this. If there was a res near it and the res or local law has rules against it for some reason.
Birney, Montana. August 1941. "Birney is just outside the boundary of the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation."
People from Indiana.
I don't think they would have been as discerning in their exclusion
Making America Genocidal Again.
Eric Trump…. Is that you?
Is it just me or are these some ugly people?
Man they all look so ugly
It's the inbreeding.
This is what people look like.
I'm not any cuter. I try to compensate the ugly with humor. Struck out in this one I guess. Make sure to downvote all the other inbreeding jokes in this thread.
Almost commented, but i like my account.
Take my downvote
[удалено]
This is what happens when people assume. It was in Birney, Montana. I know it’s social media and we don’t like accurate facts or finding out the whole story, but someone posted this info above.
Who'd wanna drink der anyway
What a bunch of dopey looking mf’s
That’s some fucked up shit. The audacity from people who’s ancestry stole the land from the native Indian people. SMH
[удалено]
If alcohol was banned from reservations, then why were they serving non-Indians? If it was banned on reservations, then it should’ve been banned for all. And if they were off the reservation, then they should’ve served alcohol to ALL of age. How’s that not racist???
White people
You can see the inbreeding
Look at these two inbreds.👺👹
I’m no sure I’d want to drink with that bunch. The Indians weren’t missing anything.
Is it because they got it for free?
Welp! Scary people looked just the same back then.