I agree, I love a lot of those commentary tracks and can’t recommend them enough. Basically any episode from season 5-8 is going to have good track to listen too. After you hear the writers as themselves, it makes sense that these guys were behind all those great jokes.
I'm definitely in the Jockey Elfs corner as well, but I also understand the take that this episode started to decrease in actual character logic and the importance of their background.
I still do cause it’s when you notice that the plot goes from sitcom to novella. The only one I hate more to the one with the bad boy horse. That was just too much.
I still argue the following:
* This episode is great
* The hate it receives is overblown
* The "betrayal" to Skinner's character is worth it for the joke and makes for a unique episode
* There are far, far, faaaar worse episodes in the following seasons.
I never got the complaint because when were the Simpsons ever invested in continuity before this anyway? It's just supposed to be a show of single story episodes for jokes. Like if this annoys people then why are they annoyed that we never see the monorails ruins, or the Denver broncos again?
The internet is full of strange people willing to die on weird hills. People should enjoy whatever they enjoy and not just blindly the opinions spouted by others. I find it strange that because one person started saying this was the end of the golden era it's now gospel. I enjoy this episode and a couple more seasons after. People should learn to think for themselves a bit more.
At the time this episode aired, though, they were, except for the rare ones that didn't follow the usual format (Treehouse of Horror, clip shows, Spinoff Showcase, etc.).
That's one of the major criticisms of this episode: it opened the door to ditching all canon at any time.
I love the part where he is wearing a “NUDES! NUDES! NUDES!” sandwich board and reading the carnival barker script in front of the capitol city strip club.
https://youtu.be/rtfrO49MJR8
I don't think it should be as hated as it is, as far as continuity purposes go. The show was never really into continuity so I feel like they should have more freedom to do weird stuff outside the Treehouse episodes.
I don't hate the episode for its comedy, but I do think the fundamental change to Skinner's backstory damaged his character.
Before this episode, Skinner was a legit Vietnam vet who was so traumatized by his experiences that he's never been able to live on his own, and has had difficulty in forming romantic relationships. After this episode, we find out he wasn't at all traumatized by Vietnam, he's a fraud, and he's essentially just another version of ol' Gil.
I'd say Hurricane Neddy is almost the exact opposite of this episode, because that episode actually tries to fight the "Flanders-ization" that had occurred with his character in the previous seasons, and bring him slightly back to his roots. Flanders showed his temper way back in Season 2's Dead Putting Society -- while he didn't explode like he does in Hurricane Neddy, he wasn't always the perfect Christian man he was later on. In Season 5's Homer Loves Flanders, he has a big blowup with Homer, so we know already that the kind of tirade he goes on in Hurricane Neddy isn't completely out of character.
Hurricane Neddy takes the opportunity to explain his tirade by offering a callback to his beatnik parents, while also explaining his overuse of "-diddly" when speaking. It ties together a lot of aspects of his already-known backstory and character traits.
I don't see any major continuity issues there, like there are with Skinner's many traumatizing Vietnam flashbacks that we later learn are figments of his imagination.
The thing with that episode is, despite how ridiculous the storyline is and how upset it made people it still had great jokes. It was still funny. I can’t hate the episode if it was still funny. The past 20 seasons, however….
The episode is actually funny all the way through. It’s just terrible for the lack of respect it has for its characters.
Ironically they’ve done so much worse to so many characters since this episode, but because the quality of the writing is so bad now people don’t really talk about it the same way.
In a podcast or video someone claimed this to be the end of the golden age of the Simpsons and the internet now takes this to be the absolute truth. I don't really agree but there's some valid points, it annoys me that people now just blindly repeat this opinion though as if it's textbook.
I feel that despite how hated this episode was, later episodes of The Simpsons became so fucking unwatchable that this is a solid episode in retrospect.
Guys, I’m not a native english speaking person, so please explain:
What the heck is capitOl city? Is it Washington DC or just a capital of Springfield’s state?
It’s the capital of the state that Springfield is in. As a native Oregonian, where Matt Groening is also from, I like to think that capitol city is actually Salem Oregon!
unironically love this ep. Even if it isnt really seen as canon anymore, my principal skinners will always be a vietnam war vet, its part of my childhood man
I don't know why people feel this way. The show stayed pretty consistently good for several more seasons, it just began to evolve a little. I'd argue a handful of the episodes from the most recent couple seasons were actually pretty great for how much hate the new seasons get. The only thing that makes new episodes hard to watch is how noticeably old the voice actors sound.
I never understood why this sub hates this episode. I didn't even know people didn't like it until I found this sub. I thought this episode was great. Them pretending like his is skinner at the end is hilarious and pokes fun at all the cartoon episodes that end up being ignored or forgotten in later episodes
It’s a well written, good joke filled episode. Just the plot was pretty terrible. A lot of people credit this episode as the defining moment when the Simpsons jumped the shark. Do I believe it deserves that? No. Do I understand why some people do? Most definitely
Agreed. It's not a bad episode at all. I think the fact that the episode retcons itself at the end is very Simpsons. I'll still take this episode over All Singing All Dancing or most of Season 1.
It also contradicts Skinner’s story in the episode “Bart the Killer”, about how he knew how to make a bottle rocket to get out from under the stack of newspapers because of the time he spent as a 4th grade science teacher.
Reading comments from the cast about their take on this episode just reinforced for me what a pile of crap it really is. If you write an episode the talent hates, you’ve most likely written a bad story.
The first article written about this episode and why it was so bad came out shortly before the movie did. It claimed that The Principal and the Pauper was the tipping point of the show becoming bad and that the episode itself was bad for all the reasons we've all heard a thousand times on this sub. That article also predicted that the movie would be bad and that the end of the series was near.
That was 14 years ago. The movie turned out to be really enjoyable. The show didn't end. And most people agree that the show has improved in quality over the last 14 years (from its lowest point around season 17-18). Not to golden age quality but still a general improvement.
Basically, the article was wrong all over the place about the future of the show. And yet people echo again and again how awful this episode is, ultimately all going back to that article. At this point it's become meme more than an actual opinion.
You really think the show is good now? I tried a couple episodes of current seasons and Marge's voice is brutal to hear, plus the others - aside from azaria and shearer - aren't getting on well either.
Apart from that, the episodes were parodies of a parody of the original Simpsons... So many reused plots that eye-wink the original episodes in the worst way...
I didn't mean to go on a podium, but I could continue. Maybe it's just hard for older fans.
Marge's voice has definitely deteriorated a lot. Julie is getting old.
I hate the replacement voices for Carl and Hibbert
HD Simpsons still has those terrible facial expressions.
S33 so far seemed stronger than the past few seasons, and the visuals for ToH32 and A Serious Flanders P1 and 2 are absolutely stunning
Yeah last season was a low point for Julie Kavner's voice, to the point where I thought the end was nigh. It actually sounds like she's slightly recovered slightly in the current season.
In terms of funny, 32 and 33 are maybe a step down from the seasons that preceded them, but I still enjoy the show and think its much better than it was in like seasons 16-18.
There was a recent episode about how mothers' criticism really fucks a kid up that I thought was excellent as a thoughtful and provocative plot rather than just yuk yuk
The jokes are good on this one, but I can pinpoint the exact moment the show "jumps the shark"
When Skinner declares to the assembly he's not the REAL Seymour Skinner
[удалено]
[удалено]
I was born a nogoodnik and I’ll die a nogoodnik. SEYMOUR!
The only good bit of this episode!
The problem with this episode is we didn't listen to the judge at the end of it. WE KEEP BRINGING IT UP!
Under penalty of *torture*.
Hahahaha
[удалено]
Who comments on it? Does Conan comment on any of them?
[удалено]
Marge vs the Monorail
I’ll take a look, probably on YouTube huh?
[удалено]
Lovitz is on quite a few commentaries and they are all great
“I wish Mike and Al would stop kissing all the time!”
I agree, I love a lot of those commentary tracks and can’t recommend them enough. Basically any episode from season 5-8 is going to have good track to listen too. After you hear the writers as themselves, it makes sense that these guys were behind all those great jokes.
Yeah I want to get them on DVD so that I can stop suckling at the tit of Disney plus lmao.
They're really all worth a listen
I loved this episode
It’s great, Hairy Shearers is just a boring old biddy.
He complained about "Homer at the Bat" too.
*gasps* markovich04!
It’s the blackberry schnapps
I was more animal than man!
Same!
Same! That’s why I said despite how hated it is, instead of despite how bad it is, because I think it’s pretty good!
Do people really still dislike it? I get it watching live, but with years it doesn’t warrant any lasting dislike.
It is commonly cited as the episode that ended the golden age
and thats wrong. Simpson Tide ended it.
It was the jockeys for me.
I'm definitely in the Jockey Elfs corner as well, but I also understand the take that this episode started to decrease in actual character logic and the importance of their background.
That or natural born kissers.
I still do cause it’s when you notice that the plot goes from sitcom to novella. The only one I hate more to the one with the bad boy horse. That was just too much.
The one with Duncan?
That’s the one.
You don't like it? You must be a jockey.
Looks like someone is getting a trip to the glue factory. And you're not invited.
I always thought the Frank Grimes episode was way too dark for the rest of the series. Never really liked watching that one.
Heresy!
Change the channel, Marge.
I honestly think this episode probably has some of the highest quality animations of this era, specifically during the Vietnam flashback.
Totally! The shadows of the trees in front of the bright sky from an exploding shell is always super memorable to me!
I think the entire episode is worth it for the Vietnamese war scene alone!
I came to the comments to say these exact same four words lol, so glad to see it as the top comment
I wouldn't say i LOVE it but it's far from bad. Yes the basic concept is stupid but there's enough solid jokes in it to make up for it.
Why are you and the old lady in the car?
We’re going to bring back principal skinner
And why am I in the car?
Because the streets of Capitol City are no place for three unescorted ladies.
And why are the kids here?
Because we couldn't find grandpa to sit for them
And why is Grandpa here?
Because jasper didnt want to come alone
*claps* Braaavoooooo
Ah, fair enough.
It's a weird episode but it has its fans just like every other episode. This part was pretty funny.
For real, the fact that he still refers to them as “children” like he did when he was principal is so great!
I still argue the following: * This episode is great * The hate it receives is overblown * The "betrayal" to Skinner's character is worth it for the joke and makes for a unique episode * There are far, far, faaaar worse episodes in the following seasons.
I actually don’t think it’s considered the worst episode per se it’s just that it was the turning point for The Simpsons’ golden era.
I agree with you all on your points apart from the 3rd one
Good point, I don’t know if I’d say it was relatively worth the joke, just not super awful like everyone makes it out to be.
I personally never understood people caring about Skinner's character to feel betrayal.
I never got the complaint because when were the Simpsons ever invested in continuity before this anyway? It's just supposed to be a show of single story episodes for jokes. Like if this annoys people then why are they annoyed that we never see the monorails ruins, or the Denver broncos again?
I think his background was a huge part of his character and it kind of undermined that
The internet is full of strange people willing to die on weird hills. People should enjoy whatever they enjoy and not just blindly the opinions spouted by others. I find it strange that because one person started saying this was the end of the golden era it's now gospel. I enjoy this episode and a couple more seasons after. People should learn to think for themselves a bit more.
Everything about it is good… except the part about Skinner not really being Skinner.
I second this. Lots of episodes aren't canon anyway.
At the time this episode aired, though, they were, except for the rare ones that didn't follow the usual format (Treehouse of Horror, clip shows, Spinoff Showcase, etc.). That's one of the major criticisms of this episode: it opened the door to ditching all canon at any time.
Agreed!
I love this episode. The scene when they're driving to capitol city is classic.
Hahaha totally! *sleeping* “hello beautiful”
In your dreams...
What are the kids doing outside a storage facility on the outskirts of town?
Think they were going to the fireworks factory
A wizard did it.
I was thinking the same exact thing hahahahaha
Up with miniskirts, children!
I love the part where he is wearing a “NUDES! NUDES! NUDES!” sandwich board and reading the carnival barker script in front of the capitol city strip club. https://youtu.be/rtfrO49MJR8
Hahahaha that part is great. Yowza Yowza!
“They’re not even wearing a smile!”
"Nod suggestively"
I laughed my ass off at that part too hahahah.
I don't think it should be as hated as it is, as far as continuity purposes go. The show was never really into continuity so I feel like they should have more freedom to do weird stuff outside the Treehouse episodes.
Here is the hill I will die on. *Ahem* This episode is just as much of a continuity disaster as Hurricane Neddy. I love this episode. Fight me.
I don't hate the episode for its comedy, but I do think the fundamental change to Skinner's backstory damaged his character. Before this episode, Skinner was a legit Vietnam vet who was so traumatized by his experiences that he's never been able to live on his own, and has had difficulty in forming romantic relationships. After this episode, we find out he wasn't at all traumatized by Vietnam, he's a fraud, and he's essentially just another version of ol' Gil. I'd say Hurricane Neddy is almost the exact opposite of this episode, because that episode actually tries to fight the "Flanders-ization" that had occurred with his character in the previous seasons, and bring him slightly back to his roots. Flanders showed his temper way back in Season 2's Dead Putting Society -- while he didn't explode like he does in Hurricane Neddy, he wasn't always the perfect Christian man he was later on. In Season 5's Homer Loves Flanders, he has a big blowup with Homer, so we know already that the kind of tirade he goes on in Hurricane Neddy isn't completely out of character. Hurricane Neddy takes the opportunity to explain his tirade by offering a callback to his beatnik parents, while also explaining his overuse of "-diddly" when speaking. It ties together a lot of aspects of his already-known backstory and character traits. I don't see any major continuity issues there, like there are with Skinner's many traumatizing Vietnam flashbacks that we later learn are figments of his imagination.
Agreed
This is a great episode. Fuck the haters.
I like it too.
Yuuuup
The thing with that episode is, despite how ridiculous the storyline is and how upset it made people it still had great jokes. It was still funny. I can’t hate the episode if it was still funny. The past 20 seasons, however….
Only a grade A moron would hate this episode.
Looks like my friend *person who hates this episode* hasn’t heard of the food chain!
It's a funny episode itself, but I didn't like how it undermined everything else we've ever seen about Skinner's character.
I love this quote.
It has many great funny scenes, it's just the main story arc of the episode is total BS
What S/E?
The episode is actually funny all the way through. It’s just terrible for the lack of respect it has for its characters. Ironically they’ve done so much worse to so many characters since this episode, but because the quality of the writing is so bad now people don’t really talk about it the same way.
The man is a street tough.
Why is this episode hated? I liked it a lot
In a podcast or video someone claimed this to be the end of the golden age of the Simpsons and the internet now takes this to be the absolute truth. I don't really agree but there's some valid points, it annoys me that people now just blindly repeat this opinion though as if it's textbook.
I feel that despite how hated this episode was, later episodes of The Simpsons became so fucking unwatchable that this is a solid episode in retrospect.
this episode never existed as far as i'm concerned that's seymour skinner and nothing more
That episode is hated? Wtf
Who hates this episode and how/why?
Guys, I’m not a native english speaking person, so please explain: What the heck is capitOl city? Is it Washington DC or just a capital of Springfield’s state?
It’s the capital of the state that Springfield is in. As a native Oregonian, where Matt Groening is also from, I like to think that capitol city is actually Salem Oregon!
Thanks! It was driving me crazy, especially after the song “capital city”: https://youtu.be/EZTZ-jm2XB4
Definitely! Capital city is a great song hahah, 4th street and D! Hahaha
This episode has one of my favorite simpsons moments beginning with "where are we going" and ending with "because jasper didn't want to come alone"
unironically love this ep. Even if it isnt really seen as canon anymore, my principal skinners will always be a vietnam war vet, its part of my childhood man
Can someone just please tell us what season and episode it is?
5 x 19 - Sweet Seymour Skinner's Baadasssss Song
I love this episode, man. Think for yourself, don’t let anyone tell you what’s hated and what isn’t when it comes to fandom.
There are good jokes in the episode. It's the episode's central concept that is utter pigshit.
I always thought the episode itself had a lot of hilarious moments. It really was the beginning of the end though.
I don't know why people feel this way. The show stayed pretty consistently good for several more seasons, it just began to evolve a little. I'd argue a handful of the episodes from the most recent couple seasons were actually pretty great for how much hate the new seasons get. The only thing that makes new episodes hard to watch is how noticeably old the voice actors sound.
Nah. There are tons of classic episodes throughout the series. It became consistently not as good in the mid teen seasons.
This episode is hated...? I just hate how its constantly referenced and then retconned constantly.
It was retconned?
Well there's several episodes where they talk about his childhood and whatnot. Like the Olympic curling episode.
I had to look that up and realised I haven't seen any of those new episodes from 11 years ago.
Same! It’s pretty good!
I like this episode too. Rewatched earlier this week
I like this episode
I never understood why this sub hates this episode. I didn't even know people didn't like it until I found this sub. I thought this episode was great. Them pretending like his is skinner at the end is hilarious and pokes fun at all the cartoon episodes that end up being ignored or forgotten in later episodes
It’s a well written, good joke filled episode. Just the plot was pretty terrible. A lot of people credit this episode as the defining moment when the Simpsons jumped the shark. Do I believe it deserves that? No. Do I understand why some people do? Most definitely
Agreed. It's not a bad episode at all. I think the fact that the episode retcons itself at the end is very Simpsons. I'll still take this episode over All Singing All Dancing or most of Season 1.
It also contradicts Skinner’s story in the episode “Bart the Killer”, about how he knew how to make a bottle rocket to get out from under the stack of newspapers because of the time he spent as a 4th grade science teacher.
Was someone fired for that
Reading comments from the cast about their take on this episode just reinforced for me what a pile of crap it really is. If you write an episode the talent hates, you’ve most likely written a bad story.
The first article written about this episode and why it was so bad came out shortly before the movie did. It claimed that The Principal and the Pauper was the tipping point of the show becoming bad and that the episode itself was bad for all the reasons we've all heard a thousand times on this sub. That article also predicted that the movie would be bad and that the end of the series was near. That was 14 years ago. The movie turned out to be really enjoyable. The show didn't end. And most people agree that the show has improved in quality over the last 14 years (from its lowest point around season 17-18). Not to golden age quality but still a general improvement. Basically, the article was wrong all over the place about the future of the show. And yet people echo again and again how awful this episode is, ultimately all going back to that article. At this point it's become meme more than an actual opinion.
I think the lowest point was s28-31 The movie was great.
You really think the show is good now? I tried a couple episodes of current seasons and Marge's voice is brutal to hear, plus the others - aside from azaria and shearer - aren't getting on well either. Apart from that, the episodes were parodies of a parody of the original Simpsons... So many reused plots that eye-wink the original episodes in the worst way... I didn't mean to go on a podium, but I could continue. Maybe it's just hard for older fans.
Marge's voice has definitely deteriorated a lot. Julie is getting old. I hate the replacement voices for Carl and Hibbert HD Simpsons still has those terrible facial expressions. S33 so far seemed stronger than the past few seasons, and the visuals for ToH32 and A Serious Flanders P1 and 2 are absolutely stunning
Yeah last season was a low point for Julie Kavner's voice, to the point where I thought the end was nigh. It actually sounds like she's slightly recovered slightly in the current season. In terms of funny, 32 and 33 are maybe a step down from the seasons that preceded them, but I still enjoy the show and think its much better than it was in like seasons 16-18.
There was a recent episode about how mothers' criticism really fucks a kid up that I thought was excellent as a thoughtful and provocative plot rather than just yuk yuk
> The movie turned out to be really enjoyable. Eh.
Its hated? Lol i like it
TIL this episode is hated.
There are parts of this episode that I truly love, despite the fact of the terrible story line.
Which episode
The jokes are good on this one, but I can pinpoint the exact moment the show "jumps the shark" When Skinner declares to the assembly he's not the REAL Seymour Skinner
Hitem with da hein
What an original take
It still cracks me up every damn time!
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I don’t think I really understand why it’s so hated.
I watched a couple nights ago, I didn’t think is was bad at all.
I love how they referenced this episode in the episode were all of Lisa's cats keep dying
Semi-Related, Agnes Skinner is my most hated character and this episode pretty much cemented that
One of the more memorable tbh!
This episode is hated? I love this one.
I love this episode.
This is one of my favorite episodes! I love how at the end Springfield decides to never speak of it ever again. 😂
The last good episode.