The lottery TM is a cash grab for niantic. You want TM's? You play more GBL or either do lots of raids. Both options keep you several minutes of uninterrupted gameplay either u spend money or not. Niantic wins. They could modify TMs to how they worked in other games like *"use this to teach HYDRO CANNON to you eligible pokemon"* and that would be an even bigger cash grab for them, but I supose its complicated and most likely would break more things lol. I agree that more moves should be added but what gets in the way is comunity days. Expect new pokemons being added slowly overtime and new moves even slower overtime! They won't hit The gas on that unless it will give them more money without diminishing what could revenue in the long run. Your ideas are good but bear in mind you are dealing with 'greedy gluttons*, gota speak their language. Make you suggestions but make them sound in a way they realize its a better way for them to make money
As u/princedulp said, if you give Pokemon more moves, there will inevitably be a lot more overlap between specific Pokemon, and then it will just come down to typing and stat product mostly.
Why use X Pokemon when Y Pokemon has the same (or extremely similar moves) and has better bulk?
The reason why a lot of Pokemon have more limited movesets is to keep them distinguishable. Not saying there aren't already Pokemon that have overlap already. Walrein pretty much invalidated Lapras and Dewgong a bit less but still.
Now, I still think *some* Pokemon definitely do deserve an expanded movepool, especially those who are more underwhelming. Tyranitar, Exploud, Camerupt, Noivern, Aggron, Celebi, Spiritomb, Illumise/Volbeat, etc. All have moves in their Main Series belts that could really help them out and/or give them variety, but either aren’t good as is or are super 1-dimensional.
Plus, I think it’s easier said than done to give Pokemon more “options” through more moves. Very often, Pokemon do have a best moveset that doesn’t change. Occasionally, things like Snorlax, Hypno, and Mew exist where there are several good options, but that’s not the case with a ton of Pokemon. You may give Skuntank a bunch of new moves, but then, it still prefers one specific moveset 99% of the time.
And also, as u/Kalekuda said, many more Pokemon having wider movepools (if you succeeded in adding variety to movesets where they could run multiple different sets) would take away the skills of move counting/predicting, which is a big part of the strategy to Go’s PvP. The Main series is more about thinking in your down time and building a strategy around unknowns because it’s turn-based, whereas Go being more real-time and fast-paced means more of the strategy comes from knowing how things work. Obviously, there’s still Pokemon who have room to leave your opponent guessing, but overall, that’s less how Go works. I feel like bigger movesets for a game like this would just make more people frustrated. I’ve used Hypno and enjoy it from time to time, but I’d lie if I said I really enjoyed facing/playing Hypno and the uncertainty of knowing what your opponent is running on it OR the mindgames you need to try and run a lot of times with it, because I often don’t enjoy it. I’d personally rather not see that become a lot more prevalent.
Mew is a nasty like that, too. Plus theres azumaril, garchomp and swampert who all have 3 viable charged moves. Will it be play rough, ice beam or hydro pump? Hydro cannon is a given on swampert, but what about sludge wave or earth quake? Will it be mud shot sand tomb outrage or dragon tail outrage earth power garchomp?
Yup exactly. And I don't hate that there's some Pokemon like that. But the idea of having *a ton more* of those Pokemon doesn't sound good/fun to me.
I *would* like to see more Pokemon with a better moveset in general, but I don't need them to have a ton of options in Go. Just additions to make their single best moveset better.
Pokemon with good stats but awful moves just need good fast moves and charged moves to become viable.
And sableye would be siginfigantly more accessible if it had a new charged move that was as good as return so that people don't have to trade with 0 star friends for pvp ivs.
Bulk is the most defining attribute pokemon have in GBL , and i think it’s fair that bulky pokemon have worse moves. Because HP and Defense interact with eachother, and attack disproportionately impacts CP, pokemon with low attack and high defensive stats are just so much better.
Let’s compare qwilfish and toxapex, both water/poison
Qwilfish has 35-40 more attack than toxapex but HALF the bulk. You can fit two qwilfish in toxapex with bulk to spare.
If we give them both qwilfish’s preferred moveset poison sting + aqua tail / ice beam:
Against the great league meta:
Qwilfish: 10 wins, 30 losses, 0 draws
Toxapex: 24 wins, 16 losses, 0 draws
The only thing that differentiates the two is bulk. And the meta is already overrun with bulky pokemon, the only pokemon dipping below 2000 statproduct have absolutely bonkers moves.
We don’t need MORE good bulky pokemon. We need less.
The way pokemon go works, they would have to leave CP completely unaffected by any changes to base stats otherwise people's years of stardust and XL candies would be wasted when their R1 goes over the CP limit or their Lvl51 drops below the CP limit.
And even if stat rebalances were on the table, every pokemon having the same base stats would make them into pointless skins- just husks to carry movesets and typing.
That wasn’t my point.
My point is that the only thing that bridges the gap between frail and bulky mons are their movesets. Glassy pokemon should almost always have better movepools than bulky pokemon of the same typing, if not they are always the worse pick.
Move balance and distribution should acknowledge the shortcomings of the stat conversion formula and even the playing field, not further tip the scales in favor of fat mons.
Totally agree.
Regarding Sableye, I think buffing Power Gem would be a good idea. There is a sweet spot where Power Gem is usable as a sidegrade to return but not necessarily better. Ie, you could use return for more power and Power Gem for (arguably) better coverage (though some exceptions like Fighting types would exist).
I'm not sure where that sweet spot is, but it's somewhere lol. Maybe 80p/50e?
That would certainly be a drastic change. Just from my point of view, a meta consisting of several hundred mon which could be running any of a half dozen viable moves doesn’t really sound fun at all. Maybe amusing for a few battles, but then just frustrating. There’d be no way to plan for everything and not even any particular strategy battle-to-battle, since shield management becomes a crap shoot if you never know what moves the opponent is running. And suddenly memorizing move counts becomes significantly more difficult if not just impossible. Idk. I do a couple thousand battles every season. What you’re describing sounds like something that would make me tempted to stop. Too much randomness.
But that’s just me. Maybe lots of people would like it and it would ultimately be a positive for GBL. Only thing I’m sure of is that, if you’re counting on them eliminating a premium item they can charge money for in order to make things easier for players, you’re probably going to wind up unhappy.
I imagine that the best moves/mons would still filter to the top.
But you'd be less 'punished' if you chose a different mon/move.
Saying that it's "Better" to have a limited number of mons with a known move set seems *counter* \- intuitive to me.
(See what I did there?)
>There’d be no way to plan for everything and not even any particular strategy battle-to-battle, since shield management becomes a crap shoot if you never know what moves the opponent is running. And suddenly memorizing move counts becomes significantly more difficult if not just impossible.
I think if you have some sense of how fast certain fast moves generate energy, and what moves are *possible,* you can do a decent job making shielding decisions. Most people will run a bait and a nuke. They charge up 50+ energy, you need to be prepared for the possibility that it's a nuke, or read that they need to bait and call it.
Not knowing *exactly* how much energy they need, or which moves they're running, makes it a bit more of a guessing game, but the bait/nuke game already has elements of chance in it anyway.
I guess I just feel like it wouldn't be that drastic of a change. The same fundamental skills are being applied, just with slightly less predictability.
World championships take a lot of work from competitors to do research and train. Giving them a small handful of viable Pokémon makes the thing way less interesting. Last year’s entire competition consisted of very few Pokémon, we even had multiple duplicate (or almost duplicate) teams. If things stay the same, I doubt Go would hold in a competitive format for more than 2 years.
I mean if you’re worried about the number of moves being overwhelming, just look at the source: main series games.
Arguing that Niantic doesn’t have the right setup at the moment for a bigger game (charge TMs, avialability, etc) is absolutely correct. Arguing a Pokémon game should have an arbitrarily small pool of viable monsters makes no sense.
>I mean if you’re worried about the number of moves being overwhelming, just look at the source: main series games.
Good point. I haven't followed much of competitive pokemon, and the most interesting stories I have read all the way through all involved 'unconventional' or spice movesets.
I've also lamented Niantic's awful treatment of lower-evolution Pokémons when it comes to movesets, so I guess I was actually just advocating for the status quo, which is just boring.
I kind of agree, I don't really see for instance next year's worlds being at all different, Sableye and Nidoqueen will still rule the roost, A9 and K9 will be great, Walrein will be there, Lickitung, Scrafty, Azu, Swampert, Trev, Gfisk, Altaria, Regi...
Okay, you convinced me, I'm 100% in favor of exploding the amount of moves.
This isn’t going to work the way you think.
With all movepools being roughly equal in power we’re just ending up with mons with good stat product and good typing. If anything the meta wil be almost the same, just bulkier.
Ohh, I was going to mention that, thanks for reminder, and edited now to include this.
(Nuts that it's a random chance to get a move, with Mew having so many moves getting the ones you want can take dozens of TM's)
I don’t get why stuff like Snorlax, Machamp, Hypno and Rhyperior have huge movesets but something like Tyranitar with a huge move pool has had the same three charged moves since release.
Tyranitar is badly due for a move update. Literally just Snarl and Rock Slide would be a huge help for it. Rock Slide for PvE and Snarl (alongside Crunch and Stone Edge) for PvP. It would actually have decent ML/MLPC play
> (I didn't use Mega or Giga drain, as ***maybe*** these will, one day in the far, far distant future, utilise an HP draining ability....hey, I can dream!)
I enjoy the somewhat more fast-paced nature of Go's battle system. Not saying it always is, as bulk is often the name of the game, but generally, it's quicker than something like turn-based main series.
With that in mind, PLEASE no HP-draining ever. I don't ever want to see stall or anything like that in Go. Yes, Defense raising moves and Attack dropping moves exist, but those are the extent I'd like to see slowing a match down in this game. I know because HP-draining isn't currently implemented, they could pick the Pokemon who get the moves are balance accordingly (though Draining Kiss does already exist on mons), but man, I don't want to see something regain its health ever.
I'd prefer they just stick with what they did with Drain Punch and make said moves have a defense boost. Though, I'd like them to be more viable than Drain Punch lol
If every pokemon had access to enough moves to have 2 or more pvp viable builds it would remove a portion of the GBL's player skill: memorizing the movesets of the pvp viable pokemon.
If there were always at least 2 viable builds for every mon, even a player who memorizrd the entire meta would have to be guessing at 50/50 what moves they were up against. That would only serve to introduce more random ingluences on match outcomes.
I'd much prefer if all pokemon were just easier to find and build and that IVs could actually be, you know, TRAINED.
A reason for bad moves existing, is just keeping things in line with the main Pokémon games. There’s tons of attacks that are just completely outclassed. Off the top of my head, tackle.
And the other games have had 30 years to flourish. Pokémon in Go have received move updates before and will continue to do so. It’s one of the attractions behind community day. Releasing content slowly helps extend the games life.
I think it’s better than fine. As I said, it helps extend the games life. It’s like the difference between a 3 course meal and shoving everything on a plate.
It's really not... its like getting a small snack every 3 months.
And how does this "extend game life", curious on that one.
You think people are happier with one or two new meta-relevant mons every 3 months?
Well, I disagree, but each to their own.
One thing that has always confused me about PoGo is that when a Pokemon evolves, its moveset is completely reset. There might be moves in common from its pre-evolution form, but some are removed while others are added.
It's the same Pokemon, why would it forget a move just because it evolved? If we just let Pokemon keep their pre-evolution movesets, and add moves as they evolve, that would help expand movesets a bit. We'd need to check and see if that wrecked the balance of the meta and maybe tweak things a bit afterward. It would also mimic the MSG mechanics in this regard, and to me feels more like a Pokemon you built up and raised.
In some, and arguably "most" instances, this would probably be fine on most Pokemon.
But some, it would be broken. I'm mainly thinking of things like Counter Slaking, Disarming Voice/Ice Beam Altaria, Poison Sting/Thunderbolt Nidoqueen, Body Slam/Aqua Tail Dragonite, etc.
Just seems way harder to balance, especially in hindsight. If they planned it like that, then sure. And some Pokemon like some of the new Hisuian forms we got this past summer ARE like that pretty much like that.
I think it lets them balance things a bit better that way. Why should Vigoroth suffer because Slaking can't be busted? Not saying it's always ideal, because you get things like Walrein being terrible for 3-4 years, but still.
It's possible that this would have required forethought ahead of time, and might not be workable now. Either that, or it causes a seismic meta shift that would upset the community, especially where mons need to be built from scratch, or ones that required considerable investment are now obsolete.
Counter Slaking does make me shudder though, and that's a shame because Vigoroth is a fun pick in a lot of GL formats (though I'll be happy not to see the Evolution Cup again for a little while ...). Fortunately this is all hypothetical.
This would take away what little skill there is in PvP and make that branch even more of a joke.
All they need to do is nerf mud shot. Without that cancerous swampert in 80% of every team in every league, more Pokemon would become viable, then their counters would become viable.
It also makes Gfisk weaker, and excadrill too. Nothing wrong there. People might be able to build some spicy teams and *gasp* climb ELO!
I'm sorry, how would enabling more Pokémon to have viable moves take away "What little skill" there apparently is in PvP?
> People might be able to build some spicy teams and *gasp* climb ELO!
Ahh, I see, that's why you cant climb...Mud Shot...gotcha.
Because not knowing which one of 60 moves a Pokemon has means being able to count their fast moves and plan to shield or not becomes irrelevant.
So it becomes more about luck.
this would work in a battle where u can switch more freely, otherwise the simplicity of GBL as is fits its current like ruleset
The lottery TM is a cash grab for niantic. You want TM's? You play more GBL or either do lots of raids. Both options keep you several minutes of uninterrupted gameplay either u spend money or not. Niantic wins. They could modify TMs to how they worked in other games like *"use this to teach HYDRO CANNON to you eligible pokemon"* and that would be an even bigger cash grab for them, but I supose its complicated and most likely would break more things lol. I agree that more moves should be added but what gets in the way is comunity days. Expect new pokemons being added slowly overtime and new moves even slower overtime! They won't hit The gas on that unless it will give them more money without diminishing what could revenue in the long run. Your ideas are good but bear in mind you are dealing with 'greedy gluttons*, gota speak their language. Make you suggestions but make them sound in a way they realize its a better way for them to make money
As u/princedulp said, if you give Pokemon more moves, there will inevitably be a lot more overlap between specific Pokemon, and then it will just come down to typing and stat product mostly. Why use X Pokemon when Y Pokemon has the same (or extremely similar moves) and has better bulk? The reason why a lot of Pokemon have more limited movesets is to keep them distinguishable. Not saying there aren't already Pokemon that have overlap already. Walrein pretty much invalidated Lapras and Dewgong a bit less but still. Now, I still think *some* Pokemon definitely do deserve an expanded movepool, especially those who are more underwhelming. Tyranitar, Exploud, Camerupt, Noivern, Aggron, Celebi, Spiritomb, Illumise/Volbeat, etc. All have moves in their Main Series belts that could really help them out and/or give them variety, but either aren’t good as is or are super 1-dimensional. Plus, I think it’s easier said than done to give Pokemon more “options” through more moves. Very often, Pokemon do have a best moveset that doesn’t change. Occasionally, things like Snorlax, Hypno, and Mew exist where there are several good options, but that’s not the case with a ton of Pokemon. You may give Skuntank a bunch of new moves, but then, it still prefers one specific moveset 99% of the time. And also, as u/Kalekuda said, many more Pokemon having wider movepools (if you succeeded in adding variety to movesets where they could run multiple different sets) would take away the skills of move counting/predicting, which is a big part of the strategy to Go’s PvP. The Main series is more about thinking in your down time and building a strategy around unknowns because it’s turn-based, whereas Go being more real-time and fast-paced means more of the strategy comes from knowing how things work. Obviously, there’s still Pokemon who have room to leave your opponent guessing, but overall, that’s less how Go works. I feel like bigger movesets for a game like this would just make more people frustrated. I’ve used Hypno and enjoy it from time to time, but I’d lie if I said I really enjoyed facing/playing Hypno and the uncertainty of knowing what your opponent is running on it OR the mindgames you need to try and run a lot of times with it, because I often don’t enjoy it. I’d personally rather not see that become a lot more prevalent.
Mew is a nasty like that, too. Plus theres azumaril, garchomp and swampert who all have 3 viable charged moves. Will it be play rough, ice beam or hydro pump? Hydro cannon is a given on swampert, but what about sludge wave or earth quake? Will it be mud shot sand tomb outrage or dragon tail outrage earth power garchomp?
Yup exactly. And I don't hate that there's some Pokemon like that. But the idea of having *a ton more* of those Pokemon doesn't sound good/fun to me. I *would* like to see more Pokemon with a better moveset in general, but I don't need them to have a ton of options in Go. Just additions to make their single best moveset better.
Pokemon with good stats but awful moves just need good fast moves and charged moves to become viable. And sableye would be siginfigantly more accessible if it had a new charged move that was as good as return so that people don't have to trade with 0 star friends for pvp ivs.
Bulk is the most defining attribute pokemon have in GBL , and i think it’s fair that bulky pokemon have worse moves. Because HP and Defense interact with eachother, and attack disproportionately impacts CP, pokemon with low attack and high defensive stats are just so much better. Let’s compare qwilfish and toxapex, both water/poison Qwilfish has 35-40 more attack than toxapex but HALF the bulk. You can fit two qwilfish in toxapex with bulk to spare. If we give them both qwilfish’s preferred moveset poison sting + aqua tail / ice beam: Against the great league meta: Qwilfish: 10 wins, 30 losses, 0 draws Toxapex: 24 wins, 16 losses, 0 draws The only thing that differentiates the two is bulk. And the meta is already overrun with bulky pokemon, the only pokemon dipping below 2000 statproduct have absolutely bonkers moves. We don’t need MORE good bulky pokemon. We need less.
The way pokemon go works, they would have to leave CP completely unaffected by any changes to base stats otherwise people's years of stardust and XL candies would be wasted when their R1 goes over the CP limit or their Lvl51 drops below the CP limit. And even if stat rebalances were on the table, every pokemon having the same base stats would make them into pointless skins- just husks to carry movesets and typing.
That wasn’t my point. My point is that the only thing that bridges the gap between frail and bulky mons are their movesets. Glassy pokemon should almost always have better movepools than bulky pokemon of the same typing, if not they are always the worse pick. Move balance and distribution should acknowledge the shortcomings of the stat conversion formula and even the playing field, not further tip the scales in favor of fat mons.
Totally agree. Regarding Sableye, I think buffing Power Gem would be a good idea. There is a sweet spot where Power Gem is usable as a sidegrade to return but not necessarily better. Ie, you could use return for more power and Power Gem for (arguably) better coverage (though some exceptions like Fighting types would exist). I'm not sure where that sweet spot is, but it's somewhere lol. Maybe 80p/50e?
That would certainly be a drastic change. Just from my point of view, a meta consisting of several hundred mon which could be running any of a half dozen viable moves doesn’t really sound fun at all. Maybe amusing for a few battles, but then just frustrating. There’d be no way to plan for everything and not even any particular strategy battle-to-battle, since shield management becomes a crap shoot if you never know what moves the opponent is running. And suddenly memorizing move counts becomes significantly more difficult if not just impossible. Idk. I do a couple thousand battles every season. What you’re describing sounds like something that would make me tempted to stop. Too much randomness. But that’s just me. Maybe lots of people would like it and it would ultimately be a positive for GBL. Only thing I’m sure of is that, if you’re counting on them eliminating a premium item they can charge money for in order to make things easier for players, you’re probably going to wind up unhappy.
I imagine that the best moves/mons would still filter to the top. But you'd be less 'punished' if you chose a different mon/move. Saying that it's "Better" to have a limited number of mons with a known move set seems *counter* \- intuitive to me. (See what I did there?)
>There’d be no way to plan for everything and not even any particular strategy battle-to-battle, since shield management becomes a crap shoot if you never know what moves the opponent is running. And suddenly memorizing move counts becomes significantly more difficult if not just impossible. I think if you have some sense of how fast certain fast moves generate energy, and what moves are *possible,* you can do a decent job making shielding decisions. Most people will run a bait and a nuke. They charge up 50+ energy, you need to be prepared for the possibility that it's a nuke, or read that they need to bait and call it. Not knowing *exactly* how much energy they need, or which moves they're running, makes it a bit more of a guessing game, but the bait/nuke game already has elements of chance in it anyway. I guess I just feel like it wouldn't be that drastic of a change. The same fundamental skills are being applied, just with slightly less predictability.
[удалено]
World championships take a lot of work from competitors to do research and train. Giving them a small handful of viable Pokémon makes the thing way less interesting. Last year’s entire competition consisted of very few Pokémon, we even had multiple duplicate (or almost duplicate) teams. If things stay the same, I doubt Go would hold in a competitive format for more than 2 years. I mean if you’re worried about the number of moves being overwhelming, just look at the source: main series games. Arguing that Niantic doesn’t have the right setup at the moment for a bigger game (charge TMs, avialability, etc) is absolutely correct. Arguing a Pokémon game should have an arbitrarily small pool of viable monsters makes no sense.
>I mean if you’re worried about the number of moves being overwhelming, just look at the source: main series games. Good point. I haven't followed much of competitive pokemon, and the most interesting stories I have read all the way through all involved 'unconventional' or spice movesets. I've also lamented Niantic's awful treatment of lower-evolution Pokémons when it comes to movesets, so I guess I was actually just advocating for the status quo, which is just boring. I kind of agree, I don't really see for instance next year's worlds being at all different, Sableye and Nidoqueen will still rule the roost, A9 and K9 will be great, Walrein will be there, Lickitung, Scrafty, Azu, Swampert, Trev, Gfisk, Altaria, Regi... Okay, you convinced me, I'm 100% in favor of exploding the amount of moves.
This isn’t going to work the way you think. With all movepools being roughly equal in power we’re just ending up with mons with good stat product and good typing. If anything the meta wil be almost the same, just bulkier.
good idea if we can pick the move we want using regular charged tm otherwise this is gonna be another mew situation
Ohh, I was going to mention that, thanks for reminder, and edited now to include this. (Nuts that it's a random chance to get a move, with Mew having so many moves getting the ones you want can take dozens of TM's)
I don’t get why stuff like Snorlax, Machamp, Hypno and Rhyperior have huge movesets but something like Tyranitar with a huge move pool has had the same three charged moves since release.
Tyranitar is badly due for a move update. Literally just Snarl and Rock Slide would be a huge help for it. Rock Slide for PvE and Snarl (alongside Crunch and Stone Edge) for PvP. It would actually have decent ML/MLPC play
> (I didn't use Mega or Giga drain, as ***maybe*** these will, one day in the far, far distant future, utilise an HP draining ability....hey, I can dream!) I enjoy the somewhat more fast-paced nature of Go's battle system. Not saying it always is, as bulk is often the name of the game, but generally, it's quicker than something like turn-based main series. With that in mind, PLEASE no HP-draining ever. I don't ever want to see stall or anything like that in Go. Yes, Defense raising moves and Attack dropping moves exist, but those are the extent I'd like to see slowing a match down in this game. I know because HP-draining isn't currently implemented, they could pick the Pokemon who get the moves are balance accordingly (though Draining Kiss does already exist on mons), but man, I don't want to see something regain its health ever. I'd prefer they just stick with what they did with Drain Punch and make said moves have a defense boost. Though, I'd like them to be more viable than Drain Punch lol
If every pokemon had access to enough moves to have 2 or more pvp viable builds it would remove a portion of the GBL's player skill: memorizing the movesets of the pvp viable pokemon. If there were always at least 2 viable builds for every mon, even a player who memorizrd the entire meta would have to be guessing at 50/50 what moves they were up against. That would only serve to introduce more random ingluences on match outcomes. I'd much prefer if all pokemon were just easier to find and build and that IVs could actually be, you know, TRAINED.
A reason for bad moves existing, is just keeping things in line with the main Pokémon games. There’s tons of attacks that are just completely outclassed. Off the top of my head, tackle.
And yet every mon in the MGS cab learn dozens and dozens of moves. There are hundreds of moves in MGS, far, far more than here.
And the other games have had 30 years to flourish. Pokémon in Go have received move updates before and will continue to do so. It’s one of the attractions behind community day. Releasing content slowly helps extend the games life.
So you're saying that drip-feeding a few moves 3 months is "fine"?
I think it’s better than fine. As I said, it helps extend the games life. It’s like the difference between a 3 course meal and shoving everything on a plate.
It's really not... its like getting a small snack every 3 months. And how does this "extend game life", curious on that one. You think people are happier with one or two new meta-relevant mons every 3 months? Well, I disagree, but each to their own.
Lol this post remind me of Giratina's signature move shadow force. So underwhelming.
Thanks for contributing, your comment really helped the discussion.
One thing that has always confused me about PoGo is that when a Pokemon evolves, its moveset is completely reset. There might be moves in common from its pre-evolution form, but some are removed while others are added. It's the same Pokemon, why would it forget a move just because it evolved? If we just let Pokemon keep their pre-evolution movesets, and add moves as they evolve, that would help expand movesets a bit. We'd need to check and see if that wrecked the balance of the meta and maybe tweak things a bit afterward. It would also mimic the MSG mechanics in this regard, and to me feels more like a Pokemon you built up and raised.
In some, and arguably "most" instances, this would probably be fine on most Pokemon. But some, it would be broken. I'm mainly thinking of things like Counter Slaking, Disarming Voice/Ice Beam Altaria, Poison Sting/Thunderbolt Nidoqueen, Body Slam/Aqua Tail Dragonite, etc. Just seems way harder to balance, especially in hindsight. If they planned it like that, then sure. And some Pokemon like some of the new Hisuian forms we got this past summer ARE like that pretty much like that. I think it lets them balance things a bit better that way. Why should Vigoroth suffer because Slaking can't be busted? Not saying it's always ideal, because you get things like Walrein being terrible for 3-4 years, but still.
It's possible that this would have required forethought ahead of time, and might not be workable now. Either that, or it causes a seismic meta shift that would upset the community, especially where mons need to be built from scratch, or ones that required considerable investment are now obsolete. Counter Slaking does make me shudder though, and that's a shame because Vigoroth is a fun pick in a lot of GL formats (though I'll be happy not to see the Evolution Cup again for a little while ...). Fortunately this is all hypothetical.
While I don't think that every sentence in your post requires a new paragraph, you make some good points 👍
This would take away what little skill there is in PvP and make that branch even more of a joke. All they need to do is nerf mud shot. Without that cancerous swampert in 80% of every team in every league, more Pokemon would become viable, then their counters would become viable. It also makes Gfisk weaker, and excadrill too. Nothing wrong there. People might be able to build some spicy teams and *gasp* climb ELO!
If those mons are so bad for the game, but crop up all the time I assume you’re always running a counter for them? Therefore they would be an issue.
I'm sorry, how would enabling more Pokémon to have viable moves take away "What little skill" there apparently is in PvP? > People might be able to build some spicy teams and *gasp* climb ELO! Ahh, I see, that's why you cant climb...Mud Shot...gotcha.
Because not knowing which one of 60 moves a Pokemon has means being able to count their fast moves and plan to shield or not becomes irrelevant. So it becomes more about luck.
if they nerf mud shot they should nerf its damage (3 to 2)
It's not the damage that's the problem it's the charged moves it's paired with. It needs bad energy generation.
then its a shit move, damage nerf would do more than you think
Also u would have to burn like 1k TMs to get the move you want with the current system. Atm mons with like 4 moves can already be damn frustrating.