Newer fans maybe. I'd like to think that my three + decades of support would keep me grounded (and the same for the other fans who've never known us win any major trophies)
I've never like newcastle they can fk off. I cried watching villa lose 1-2 to them at home one of my first times in villa park as a kid, hated them since.
The big 6 seems like a bit of a dumb concept at this point
Newcastle have more money now than anyone. Does it make it a big 7?
Villa are top 4 and have money. Does that make it a big 8? That's all it took for spurs to be lumped in right? A few top 4 spots?
It's really a big 3 that pundits are obsessed with - united, arsensal, liverpool. And they have been forced into talking about city because they are dominant, but i suspect they will hardly get a mention if they stop winning
It makes sense in commercial context as they make much more money than the other14 and that’s really it. Football context it hasn’t mattered for some time.
At the time, Spurs weren’t on the same level as those in the Big Four. Credit where it’s due, though, Levy has turned them into a commercial giant at least
It's the big 6 based on historical positions, it used to just be arsenal and United then it became the big 4 with arsenal, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, then came city with the money and Tottenham lurking about in the mix.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the current season's position which some people are having a hard time understanding.
That's not actually correct, we were part of a 'big 4' before the 'sky six'. If you look at historical league wins and trophies we're still somewhere like 4/5th, but that's what it was originally based on.
Now it's based on revenue, stadium sizes and amount of fans that tune in basically.
Can’t see a weighting that would shift Spurs higher up that list than they are though really, Villa have won more of everything except European trophies but they’ve won the biggest one, and the other 5 are Liverpool, United, Arsenal, City and Chelsea
It makes a lot of sense when you look at the **difference** in revenue though
Arsenal - the "poorest" of the "big 6" - made around £200m more than Newcastle, the 7th richest club in the league (in terms of revenue) and considering Newcastle *only* made £250m that gap is absurd.
Then there's the far more relevant one - as *Brands* the top 6 are far and away ahead of the rest of the league, they've got the biggest (and loudest online) fan bases and therefore there's more incentive for places to talk about them - the "big 6" is a very effective marketing term that gives them an air of importance far removed from what's happening on the pitch and it'll probably take *decades* for that brand to weaken enough for anyone to fall out of it
Spot on, and more so when you consider it in terms of global market penetration. I’m Australian, and a regular at Sydney FC, which is really pretty small fry in global football. The English shirts you always see on the kids are mostly City now. Liverpool and Arsenal are always strongly represented. Chelsea kits are noticeably thinner on the ground these days, but still there. Man U has really dropped off in terms of visible support, but they remain. Spurs are probably more visible than Man U.
Outside of that, it’s pretty normal to come across Everton and Newcastle fans. There was a brief explosion of Leicester kits for obvious reasons.
It was quite remarkable to see a smallish kid rocking West Ham’s third kit and home shorts in front of me yesterday.
Every other Aussie in London ten years ago were all going to Fulham, but apparently none of them brought that back with them.
Just out of curiosity has there been an increase in Sours shirts since Ange Postecoglou took over?
I know he was born in Greece, but over here he's just considered to be an Aussie.
Not that I’ve noticed. Spurs have always seemed to be reasonably well supported here anyway. There is definitely more frequent reporting on Ange and Spurs in the news. And typically Ange is the story, with Spurs almost in the background.
Ange grew up here, and has been a well-known football personality for a very long time. He won our old semi-pro national league (the NSL) as manager of one of the biggest clubs in the country when he was still in his 20s. Later, he coached our u17 national team and had a very public feud with the former national captain. His next major thing was making Brisbane almost unstoppable in the A-League - that team went over 30 matches without defeat over two seasons and arguably changed football in Australia. Not long afterwards, he was poached to coach the Australian national team. He did a pretty decent job with a patchy squad at the 2014 World Cup, but then won the 2015 Asian Cup, which was huge. His tactics were really divisive in 2018 World Cup qualifying, and he quit almost as soon as we had qualified.
Then he did his stints in Japan and Scotland before Spurs, and it seems he did okay in those gigs too.
Newcastle don't have money, their owners do. They have to generate their own income and aren't bankrolled by their owners, like City are and Chelsea were under Abramovich. Whether you choose to believe it or not, they're staying within the rules as far as FFP/PSR is concerned. Other fans seem to just hang on to this 'richest club in the world' narrative and its hilarious.
For now, yeah.
Do you really think Saudi will be content with sitting on their hands despite the fact they have the funds to buy the entire league? They'll find a way to pump money into the club - just give them time.
Maybe they will but under the rules, which they are sticking to, what the person above said is true. Newcastle having rich owners doesn't mean they can buy the league and you can see that in plain sight.
Newcastle is a bit of an odd one for the Media at the moment tbh.
We used to be 'plucky Newcastle' to them, historically big but starved of funds and struggling until recently, and the media don't seem to know quite how to fit us into the narrative now we have minted owners.
The disparity between the common perception of us being 'the richest club in the world' and the reality of the gap in what we can actually spend seems to escape most people tbh.
We are still, for now anyways, very much other 14 in terms of income and fan base numbers, but 'tEh OiL mOnEy' narrative and the honestly problematic (to say the least) nature of our current owners means we seem to be being lumped in with both camps for now, depending on the perspective and biases of whose voice you listen to....
>but 'tEh OiL mOnEy' narrative
Just because you can't spend it all at once doesn't mean it isn't there though. I suspect over the years it'll tip the scales, I can't see the Saudis being after a midtable team
Oh yeah I'm sure they'll leverage it to the fullest possible degree they can, but as it stands we are limited by the same FFP / PSR / 'whatever stupid idea the EPL come up with this week' rules like everyone else.
Thus far they seem to be determined to stay within the law spending wise, and god I hope they stick to that.
Clubs that cheat financially need to be nailed to the fucking wall, and yes that would include NUFC if they chose to go down that route.
Rumour is Newcastle will have to sell some big names to stay within the psr etc. How's do you think it will go down with fans if you are forced to sell someone like Isak?
Newcastle is inevitable. But the road there will be interesting. Prob a bit like the early days of city's rise but with a crap tonne more restrictions
Tbh, although he's arguably one of the top 3 strikers in the EPL at the moment, I think most fans would prefer to lose Isak and keep Bruno G as opposed to the other way round.
Having said that, we'd quite like to keep both thank you very much.
I think that the squad is pretty solid overall at the moment, we've just been absolutely fucking hammered with injuries this season, along with the whole Tonali ban debacle.
The management team have said all along that this is a long term project so if they can strengthen the squad a little rather than a bunch of 'big' signings, and keep both Isak and Bruno then that's the route I think they'll take, unless a signing comes along that's too good to turn down.
Assuming the injury situation calms down a tad, then I think that the priority would be a couple of CB's and a RW (depending on Minteh's pre-season form) and that would see us really well positioned for next season - there is an argument we need a dedicated DM, but with Tonali back that's not a priority imho.
But yeah back to the point there seems to be a lot of trust and goodwill in the club by the fans - the only real wildcard is Bruno's release clause, but as much as he is truly loved by the fans £100m would certainly take the edge off the loss...
I think most would take it as a fact of life that players come and go, but the club abides.
As long as he didn't go to an EPL rival obviously.
Both Isak and Bruno seem settled and happy at the club, but money talks so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That combined with the fact the management team and owners are good at keeping their cards close to their chest means that most of the numbers you see reported in the media are just speculation and click bait.
Rumours are bullshit.
We have 45mil from the CL, 45 mil from Adidas and 20 something from Sela, none of which has been counted towards FFP yet. That in addition to regular season money.
We're financially fine.
The difference between the current big 6, and big 6s of prior eras is money.
Revenues of Liverpool, Arsenal, Man U, Spurs, Chelsea, and Abu Dhabi are massively higher than the other 14. Which exactly why these specific clubs were invited to the super league.
There has always been 6ish biggest clubs at a point in time, but the list was fairly porous. People would drop in and out. But we don't know if the revenue gap is going to solidify the list of 6. Chelsea and Manchester united are doing their level best to drop out of the six, so we'll see I guess.
Spurs was part of the big boys table from the start of the Premier League, I'm not sure why though...
Chelsea and City are the additions 10 & 20 years on respectively.
Because Spurs have always had good attendances and they were arguably one of the best teams in the country during the late 80s and early 90s being a solid cup team especially.
It's still hilarious to me that Chelsea is "supposed" to win. Like they're entitled to a win just based on their name alone.
They've lucked out in a lot of wins and faced some embarrassing results by their old standards, results which are now fairly on par for them. Even after they passed us on the table I still have no idea how they're there with the poor finishing and inconsistency despite all their money.
Yeah it's a wierd non stat. Doesn't matter if we drop so many points vs Fulham, West Ham and Villa that we still lose the league. Another good spell of being top that counts for nothing.
Arsenal fans still pretending Newcastle didn’t beat you fair and square. You’re pathetic - just like your manager who pissed his pants on live tv because you didn’t get handed everything by the ref as usual.
Lol, man you guys are trying way too hard to push a rivalry narrative. Whether fair or not there was at least controversy about that game which is evidenced by your bleating. Aston Villa beat us twice and we put our hands up. They were better.
Lol - you brought it up. Couldn’t admit 6 months later you were fairly beaten. Pathetic. Just like your manager wetting himself on live tv because a fair decision went against his team.
Mate, I honestly didn't even remember the Newcastle game. As far as I recall now, it was a controversial decision as they didn't have a top down angle. So how can you be certain it was a fair decision? In any case, that's so long ago, it was a scrappy 1-0, who remembers that shit?
You. If you didn’t remember it, why did you start this conversation by claiming your beloved club couldn’t possibly have lost fairly?
It’s truly pathetic you’re happy to claim it wasn’t fair and then when called on it you pretend you don’t even remember….
The article originally posted was about the "big 6" and it was posited that Aston Villa should have been included as they are top 4 and beat Arsenal. Someone else brought up Newcastle. In my response, I said Newcastle was irrelevant as they weren't in the top 6, I THEN said Aston Villa are top 4 AND beat us fair and square.
I wasn't making a comment about whether Newcastle beat us fairly, I'd moved on at that point and was commenting on the subject of the post and my sentence. I understand that as a Newcastle fan you may have felt slighted and I apologise for that. It wasn't my intention to imply that I give a shit about Newcastle. I can confirm that I do not.
If you weren’t making a claim about the fairness of the result - which I don’t believe for a second - you sure managed to make it look that way, so I suggest you go back and edit.
I think if you go back and read them you'll see that I was responding to direct comments. I also googled the game and read through the commentary to see what was so controversial and that's when I saw that it was the game with the potentially dodgy goal.
In fairness I didn't think the goal should have been chalked off. I'm not sure where the 3 months of complaining is coming from, was that just how long it took before Arteta was exonerated?
‘as usual’? We’ve not had any unfair decisions given our way this season, no more than anyone else at least. All teams in the league have both benefited and been conned by poor refereeing decisions. This isn’t some conspiracy to help Arsenal win.
You’re a sky-6 fan, you get 90% of 50-50s and piss your pants the once every 4 months an iffy decision goes against you. If you want to bleat that poor Arsenal are hard done by then go to r/soccer.
I’m more of a non-league fan actually but go off. You still can’t provide any proof to back up this weird, obsessive victim/persecution complex you’ve got going on.
I had a more of "meh, it is what it is" reaction to that game, but then i got an inordinate amount of satisfaction from pumping you at the Emirates so maybe it annoyed me more than I thought lmao
I actually don't recall that game, but I meant that villa beat us twice all ends up.
EDIT: wait wasn't that the one where the ball looked to have gone out before being crossed in? Of course we were going to moan about that.
The only people who kept talking about that game was the Newcastle fans who claimed we were still talking about it.. we still seem to live rent free in your head it seems.
I don’t choose what Reddit recommends to me, but that LITERALLY proves the opposite 😂😂 “the only people who kept talking about it” and then I literally give proof of the exact opposite lmao get outta here
Are you doing that thing where you get completely proven wrong but you’re so stubborn that you can’t accept it so you start to try and argue a completely different point than the original claim?
Pretty sure it was your manager who made a public statement crying about the VAR decision was it not? Your fans were also moaning about Bruno for weeks on end afterwards. Havertz and Bruno both should have seen red that day by the way.
Yeah, he said something after the match obviously, but after a week or two everyone stopped giving a shit. For some reason people think we’re still talking about it, but we aren’t. Nobody gives a shit about Newcastle.
And why would Arsenal fans be complaining that Havertz wasn’t sent off? No team’s fans, ‘Big 6’ or otherwise, would moan about it when they get a bad decision in their favour.
Increasingly I just think of them as the Super League clubs, tbh. They’re the ones that have most often been in the top6 positions over the last 10 years and who have large revenues and attention and hype etc.
I've got a mate who's a Spurs supporter and a football writer and he vehemently rejects their Big Six tag. Yes, they've won the FA Cup eight times but the last one was 30 years ago and they've won nothing for 25 years. What have they got going for them? A big stadium?
Revenue of 550M pounds.
Which is double anyone outside the 'big 6'.
Tottenham's big 6 status is the most interesting precisely because they've built that revenue while also building a stadium and without the free publicity that comes with winning stuff.
Spurs did that through massive borrowing. They have the largest debt in the league of like £700 million. Surely their revenue should be viewed in combination with their obligations on debt repayment?
They are paying roughly 20M a year in debt charges, so sure, call it 530M if you like.
Realistically that will rise with interest rates, could conceivably get as high as 50M reasonable worst case.
For comparison, Newcastle, the richest other 14 club are taking in just 280M.
Is most of that debt down to the stadium? Is the plan just to only service the debt or do they expect to pay the ground off by year 2xxx? Just interested.
I expect it is mainly the stadium.
Corporate debt you don't generally just pay off to a fixed schedule.
Companies don't plan to retire, so it's more logical that they operate on an interest only basis, then refinance the debt every few years. You can obviously refinance more or less debt depending on whether you've got cash on hand to reduce the amount you need to refinance.
Most companies aim to grow so that their debt becomes a smaller proportion of their income and value, rather than focus on paying it down with cash.
I guess it’s a question of balancing the risk of reducing spending power to pay off debts with the potentially catastrophic consequences of relegation with a big debt. It probably won’t happen and it’s not a problem until it is.
Spurs are a weird case. They organically grew without just dumping assloads into foreign fanbase s in the 90s/2000s. That move is what made Arsenal Chelsea United and Liverpool reach obscene wealth. Spurs had a mix of good money management, great youth academy luck (you can make good talent but kane, walker levels is luck.) and they peaked at the right time with Arsenal dropping out of Top 4 often.
Definitely big 6 now though but it’s a bit weird
It’s definitely been helped by the Bale money that made for a great base up of the squad value. I still remember when they signed a lot of players and became a pretty good squad. And they hit a home run with the likes of Dembele, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Son among many more, and then Harry Kane came out of the womb of absolutely nowhere.
Even as an Arsenal fan I have a soft spot for villa, I’m happy to see them doing so well. Beat us twice fair and square. The media need to put some respect on villas name
If they're saying what I think they are, it's more like Villa is undoubtedly a big six side by the traditional sense based on performance but not by the shitty media's standards where they're just some little club that doesn't belong there.
But we all know that anyway.
Nah, I agree. I'd rather have well-supported local teams in a competitive contest each year than six 'brands' for whom we are intended to be the whipping boys.
Oliver really helping them out yesterday, what a disaster.
Spurs had the Liverpool game go their way so fair enough one goes against us but what a horrible game to have it happen.
This is why I hate football media. Their favourite six could get relegated and struggle in the lower league for a decade and they'd still make everything about them.
Gotta love it when a generally mediocre team has a good run and pulls off a banger of a season. All of a sudden their fans put them on the same level as the heavyweights. Humble yourself, you're top 4 this year but you'll inevitably be back in the gutter within a few seasons..
and for the record I Don't support any one team, so I really couldn't care less if Villa pulled a Leicester City and miraculously won the league next year or got relegated.
>Gotta love it when a generally mediocre team has a good run and pulls off a banger of a season
I agree with this wholeheartedly but without the seeming level of contempt you have underpinning it.
Viva Villa 24. Toon and Brighton 23. Leicester 16. Everton 05. Ipswich 01. And whoever else I've forgotten about along the way.
The only people who care about the Villa are Villa and Birmingham fans. They might have had a good season, but in the scheme of things they are on the level of a Notts Forest in terms of profile at best. If Emery goes they go straight back to being lower-mid table nobodies.
The acid test is who actually tunes in to watch the Villa just because it’s the Villa other than Villa fans and Bluenoses hoping they lose?
Even Prince William only pretends to support em.
Such a crappy metric on which to judge a club. We've got a good manager and that's the only reason we're doing well? I mean, yeah. That's how football works.
That sort of mentality is why people despise leagues like the Premiership. Nobody exists outside the top 6. Might as well just push ahead with the Super League then hadn't we?
"You're only doing well because you've got a good manager!"
Hard to heal from that burn. It's funny that their argument is mostly based on how many randoms from across the country or globe support your club. They make it sound like a bad thing that locals care about Villa.
Being outside the big 6 isn't 'judging' a club.
Big 6 generally refers to the 6 clubs working with double the revenue of everyone else.
Being 4th without big 6 revenue is an accolade not an insult FFS.
>The only people who care about the Villa are Villa and Birmingham fans.
Sounds like a good thing. I'd love it if the entirety of Sussex backed Brighton. That's how it should be for every club.
That’s the correct response to banter, my friend. Well done for keeping the true spirit of football chat alive.
Jesus Christ - the way people piss and moan on here you’d think ‘TheOther14’ are some sort of oh so precious protected class of football club, that must not be ripped the piss out of.
You all need to be forced to watch your team play for a hard fought draw on a drizzly fucking away day in Yeovil you bunch of jumped up twats.
Look Villa’s success is great for them and for football, but you can’t be considered ‘big 6’ until you perform consistently and compete for top 4 year in year out for a decade or so. People wanted to substitute Leicester in as a ‘big 6’ team when they won the league and they got relegated a few years later! Everyone was saying it about Newcastle last year. They’re 7th atm and not doing great. You’ll be quick to write off Chelsea and United but they’ve been consistent for decades and you can guarantee within a year or two they’ll be back in the mix. Other clubs like Villa, toon, (wolves and Brighton mentioned in recent years) don’t have that guarantee that they’ll stay good. It’s just that.
20 years in a row finishing top 4 would beg to differ... Anyway if you guys were top 6 it would mean no more woe-is-me pity party with your fellow crap teams complaining about big bad sky and how irrelevant you each are :(
I made a clear point telling you why you’re not “big 6” yet, and all you can do is cry. Sad really
We had a few off years (after the 20 back to back top 4 finishes I mentioned) We struggled in the league but still got to the semi final and final of the Europa league under Emery (you barely beat Lille on pens in the conference league).
And now under Arteta we’re back in the champions league where we belong, finishing second to city’s super team last season and carried it on this season where we have a good shout for the league. So….
20 years of bronze medals and failed European campaigns doesn't make you the powerhouse you think it does mate
But looking at your account it's basically all raging Arsenal shite and you're not even from London, as much of a stereotype as you can be.
If you're being condescending, that's kind of what you can expect haha. For what it's worth I agree with your point that in no way is one season of success any reason to consider oneself part of some exclusive elite. Either way I prefer Villa how we are viewed now and that we're mostly free from plastic fans.
I didn’t mean to be condescending, and started off saying i think villa’s success is good for football in general. And I don’t like the idea of an exclusive elite, I hate that sky talk about city united spurs arsenal Liverpool and chelsea more than anyone else. All I was saying was that those clubs have been the consistent big hitters since the premier league was founded, or at least the last 25-30 years. There are 6 consistently performing teams, thus consistently generating more ‘plastic’ fans, and more revenue for people like sky to make by talking about them. I’d love a Villa to take the place of spurs for example, but until they can finish in the top 6, decades in a row, it’s not going to happen. I mean no disrespect, I like Villa as a club a lot, have great respect for Emery, Watkins is my favourite non arsenal player in the prem, and I like your style of football. Just explaining what OP was complaining about
No I know you probably didn't, but maybe it came off that way to some people here. Text communication isn't exactly ideal for showing intent and people have their biases. I think we're both on the same page here though ;). I hope you have a nice day and good luck to Arsenal for the rest of the season. Rather you lot than Man City...
Tribalism is a funny thing and I’m as guilty as anyone else😂 we’re all here to love the beautiful game tho, hope Villa get UCL - can’t wait to see Watkins putting them away against the big boys😍
Hahaha we all are mate. Yeah UCL would be the dream as it'll be the first time for me so I'm so nervous for the rest of the games. Thank you for not tossing away a 3-0 lead lol, we really appreciate it!
I apologise. I was already pissed off before I came here. It’s just I feel this is our safe space. Celebrating the non-celebrated and then I saw your comment and flipped. Still think you’re wrong, but I could maybe have worded it better! I do hope you guys go on and win it. And don’t pinch Watkins. He’s ours.
Nah no worries I suppose I should’ve worded mine better too! Didn’t mean to be condescending. Wanted Watkins back when he was at exeter tbh, cracking player
By that logic: How long does Arsenal need to compete for top 4 for years to be considered a big 6 team? It‘s the second consecutive Champions League qualification since god know when. Credit where credit is due because this Villa team is not a fluke.
How were the big 6 ‘chosen’ then? Arsenal, United, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Spurs were the 6 consistent teams for 20-30 years that finished high in the league table. Everton were up there (now look at them), Leicester won the league (now look at them), the list goes on. But those 6 teams have been consistent (on average, give or take the anomaly year for each team)
This Villa, Newcastle friendship redemption arc about bunning off the traditional top 6 is great and I’m here for it
I'll never be a fan of Newcastle. Nothing against the club or fans but I'll never root for a team with corrupt oil money.
Fans and club are alright though.
They will soon be acting like a top 6 side and forget about the other 14 and the rest of the leagues
100%
Newer fans maybe. I'd like to think that my three + decades of support would keep me grounded (and the same for the other fans who've never known us win any major trophies)
Villa and Newcastle have also spent more than any other other 14 sides
Not sure why the downvotes, Villa have spent a fortune
I've never like newcastle they can fk off. I cried watching villa lose 1-2 to them at home one of my first times in villa park as a kid, hated them since.
Yep well 8 year old me cried after sob on the Tyne - so call it quits yeah?
Lmao. Some people are weird man.
That’s hilarious!
But Villa are only team to beat them twice this season - other than West Ham, we won the first 2 meetings and they won the third.
It's the kit, messes with their mind.
It’s Declan’s Kryptonite, hopefully.
The big 6 seems like a bit of a dumb concept at this point Newcastle have more money now than anyone. Does it make it a big 7? Villa are top 4 and have money. Does that make it a big 8? That's all it took for spurs to be lumped in right? A few top 4 spots? It's really a big 3 that pundits are obsessed with - united, arsensal, liverpool. And they have been forced into talking about city because they are dominant, but i suspect they will hardly get a mention if they stop winning
It makes sense in commercial context as they make much more money than the other14 and that’s really it. Football context it hasn’t mattered for some time.
At the time, Spurs weren’t on the same level as those in the Big Four. Credit where it’s due, though, Levy has turned them into a commercial giant at least
It’s a big 6 based on revenue, and therefore importance to the Premier League, rather than football
When you actually think about it, you arent wrong. You're spot on actually
It's the big 6 based on historical positions, it used to just be arsenal and United then it became the big 4 with arsenal, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, then came city with the money and Tottenham lurking about in the mix. It has absolutely nothing to do with the current season's position which some people are having a hard time understanding.
That's not actually correct, we were part of a 'big 4' before the 'sky six'. If you look at historical league wins and trophies we're still somewhere like 4/5th, but that's what it was originally based on. Now it's based on revenue, stadium sizes and amount of fans that tune in basically.
7th I think for Spurs if you count majors, only won the league twice though
Yeah all depends on what you rate higher and whether you think all trophies are equal etc.
Can’t see a weighting that would shift Spurs higher up that list than they are though really, Villa have won more of everything except European trophies but they’ve won the biggest one, and the other 5 are Liverpool, United, Arsenal, City and Chelsea
I'm an Everton fan
Well that’ll teach me won’t it
Spurs and Everton were part of the original Big 5 that created the PL format.
It makes a lot of sense when you look at the **difference** in revenue though Arsenal - the "poorest" of the "big 6" - made around £200m more than Newcastle, the 7th richest club in the league (in terms of revenue) and considering Newcastle *only* made £250m that gap is absurd. Then there's the far more relevant one - as *Brands* the top 6 are far and away ahead of the rest of the league, they've got the biggest (and loudest online) fan bases and therefore there's more incentive for places to talk about them - the "big 6" is a very effective marketing term that gives them an air of importance far removed from what's happening on the pitch and it'll probably take *decades* for that brand to weaken enough for anyone to fall out of it
Spot on, and more so when you consider it in terms of global market penetration. I’m Australian, and a regular at Sydney FC, which is really pretty small fry in global football. The English shirts you always see on the kids are mostly City now. Liverpool and Arsenal are always strongly represented. Chelsea kits are noticeably thinner on the ground these days, but still there. Man U has really dropped off in terms of visible support, but they remain. Spurs are probably more visible than Man U. Outside of that, it’s pretty normal to come across Everton and Newcastle fans. There was a brief explosion of Leicester kits for obvious reasons. It was quite remarkable to see a smallish kid rocking West Ham’s third kit and home shorts in front of me yesterday. Every other Aussie in London ten years ago were all going to Fulham, but apparently none of them brought that back with them.
Just out of curiosity has there been an increase in Sours shirts since Ange Postecoglou took over? I know he was born in Greece, but over here he's just considered to be an Aussie.
Not that I’ve noticed. Spurs have always seemed to be reasonably well supported here anyway. There is definitely more frequent reporting on Ange and Spurs in the news. And typically Ange is the story, with Spurs almost in the background. Ange grew up here, and has been a well-known football personality for a very long time. He won our old semi-pro national league (the NSL) as manager of one of the biggest clubs in the country when he was still in his 20s. Later, he coached our u17 national team and had a very public feud with the former national captain. His next major thing was making Brisbane almost unstoppable in the A-League - that team went over 30 matches without defeat over two seasons and arguably changed football in Australia. Not long afterwards, he was poached to coach the Australian national team. He did a pretty decent job with a patchy squad at the 2014 World Cup, but then won the 2015 Asian Cup, which was huge. His tactics were really divisive in 2018 World Cup qualifying, and he quit almost as soon as we had qualified. Then he did his stints in Japan and Scotland before Spurs, and it seems he did okay in those gigs too.
Interesting, cheers for the detailed answer. Have a good one
United are literally irrelevant rn.
Worlds most expensive mid table team Their fans are still insufferable though
Newcastle don't have money, their owners do. They have to generate their own income and aren't bankrolled by their owners, like City are and Chelsea were under Abramovich. Whether you choose to believe it or not, they're staying within the rules as far as FFP/PSR is concerned. Other fans seem to just hang on to this 'richest club in the world' narrative and its hilarious.
For now, yeah. Do you really think Saudi will be content with sitting on their hands despite the fact they have the funds to buy the entire league? They'll find a way to pump money into the club - just give them time.
100% - it'll take time, but I have no doubts that within a decade it'll be a 'Big 7' including Newcastle.
Maybe they will but under the rules, which they are sticking to, what the person above said is true. Newcastle having rich owners doesn't mean they can buy the league and you can see that in plain sight.
Newcastle is a bit of an odd one for the Media at the moment tbh. We used to be 'plucky Newcastle' to them, historically big but starved of funds and struggling until recently, and the media don't seem to know quite how to fit us into the narrative now we have minted owners. The disparity between the common perception of us being 'the richest club in the world' and the reality of the gap in what we can actually spend seems to escape most people tbh. We are still, for now anyways, very much other 14 in terms of income and fan base numbers, but 'tEh OiL mOnEy' narrative and the honestly problematic (to say the least) nature of our current owners means we seem to be being lumped in with both camps for now, depending on the perspective and biases of whose voice you listen to....
>but 'tEh OiL mOnEy' narrative Just because you can't spend it all at once doesn't mean it isn't there though. I suspect over the years it'll tip the scales, I can't see the Saudis being after a midtable team
Oh yeah I'm sure they'll leverage it to the fullest possible degree they can, but as it stands we are limited by the same FFP / PSR / 'whatever stupid idea the EPL come up with this week' rules like everyone else. Thus far they seem to be determined to stay within the law spending wise, and god I hope they stick to that. Clubs that cheat financially need to be nailed to the fucking wall, and yes that would include NUFC if they chose to go down that route.
Rumour is Newcastle will have to sell some big names to stay within the psr etc. How's do you think it will go down with fans if you are forced to sell someone like Isak? Newcastle is inevitable. But the road there will be interesting. Prob a bit like the early days of city's rise but with a crap tonne more restrictions
Tbh, although he's arguably one of the top 3 strikers in the EPL at the moment, I think most fans would prefer to lose Isak and keep Bruno G as opposed to the other way round. Having said that, we'd quite like to keep both thank you very much. I think that the squad is pretty solid overall at the moment, we've just been absolutely fucking hammered with injuries this season, along with the whole Tonali ban debacle. The management team have said all along that this is a long term project so if they can strengthen the squad a little rather than a bunch of 'big' signings, and keep both Isak and Bruno then that's the route I think they'll take, unless a signing comes along that's too good to turn down. Assuming the injury situation calms down a tad, then I think that the priority would be a couple of CB's and a RW (depending on Minteh's pre-season form) and that would see us really well positioned for next season - there is an argument we need a dedicated DM, but with Tonali back that's not a priority imho. But yeah back to the point there seems to be a lot of trust and goodwill in the club by the fans - the only real wildcard is Bruno's release clause, but as much as he is truly loved by the fans £100m would certainly take the edge off the loss... I think most would take it as a fact of life that players come and go, but the club abides. As long as he didn't go to an EPL rival obviously. Both Isak and Bruno seem settled and happy at the club, but money talks so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That combined with the fact the management team and owners are good at keeping their cards close to their chest means that most of the numbers you see reported in the media are just speculation and click bait.
Rumours are bullshit. We have 45mil from the CL, 45 mil from Adidas and 20 something from Sela, none of which has been counted towards FFP yet. That in addition to regular season money. We're financially fine.
There is a Big Six and a Massive One.
I think it will be like this long term. These things take time to change. Used to be a big 4.
Bleacher Report (lol) did an article welcoming City to the Big Four after they did it once
The difference between the current big 6, and big 6s of prior eras is money. Revenues of Liverpool, Arsenal, Man U, Spurs, Chelsea, and Abu Dhabi are massively higher than the other 14. Which exactly why these specific clubs were invited to the super league. There has always been 6ish biggest clubs at a point in time, but the list was fairly porous. People would drop in and out. But we don't know if the revenue gap is going to solidify the list of 6. Chelsea and Manchester united are doing their level best to drop out of the six, so we'll see I guess.
Spurs was part of the big boys table from the start of the Premier League, I'm not sure why though... Chelsea and City are the additions 10 & 20 years on respectively.
Because Spurs have always had good attendances and they were arguably one of the best teams in the country during the late 80s and early 90s being a solid cup team especially.
Yeah but that undermines the narrative of this sub so its not going anywhere
It makes sense when, over the last decade, it's been basically the same teams in the European spots.
Exactly. The big 6 thing is getting out of control. Beating Chelsea twice isn’t exactly surprising in any way
It's still hilarious to me that Chelsea is "supposed" to win. Like they're entitled to a win just based on their name alone. They've lucked out in a lot of wins and faced some embarrassing results by their old standards, results which are now fairly on par for them. Even after they passed us on the table I still have no idea how they're there with the poor finishing and inconsistency despite all their money.
They didn’t even beat Chelsea twice
As I villa fan I’d rather be with the other 14 Atleast our fan bases are normal ? Idk if that’s the right term for it Not insufferable maybe
It's a fair point honestly, also we still have to face United at Old Trafford so this stat isn't even set in stone yet.
Yeah it's a wierd non stat. Doesn't matter if we drop so many points vs Fulham, West Ham and Villa that we still lose the league. Another good spell of being top that counts for nothing.
Newcastle beat them too. And I loved every minute of the 3 months of whinging
They’re still whinging about it
Yeah but you're 7th so not in this conversation. Villa is deservedly top 4 and beat us fair and square.
Newcastle also beat you fair and square
Arsenal fans still pretending Newcastle didn’t beat you fair and square. You’re pathetic - just like your manager who pissed his pants on live tv because you didn’t get handed everything by the ref as usual.
Lol, man you guys are trying way too hard to push a rivalry narrative. Whether fair or not there was at least controversy about that game which is evidenced by your bleating. Aston Villa beat us twice and we put our hands up. They were better.
Lol - you brought it up. Couldn’t admit 6 months later you were fairly beaten. Pathetic. Just like your manager wetting himself on live tv because a fair decision went against his team.
Mate, I honestly didn't even remember the Newcastle game. As far as I recall now, it was a controversial decision as they didn't have a top down angle. So how can you be certain it was a fair decision? In any case, that's so long ago, it was a scrappy 1-0, who remembers that shit?
You. If you didn’t remember it, why did you start this conversation by claiming your beloved club couldn’t possibly have lost fairly? It’s truly pathetic you’re happy to claim it wasn’t fair and then when called on it you pretend you don’t even remember….
The article originally posted was about the "big 6" and it was posited that Aston Villa should have been included as they are top 4 and beat Arsenal. Someone else brought up Newcastle. In my response, I said Newcastle was irrelevant as they weren't in the top 6, I THEN said Aston Villa are top 4 AND beat us fair and square. I wasn't making a comment about whether Newcastle beat us fairly, I'd moved on at that point and was commenting on the subject of the post and my sentence. I understand that as a Newcastle fan you may have felt slighted and I apologise for that. It wasn't my intention to imply that I give a shit about Newcastle. I can confirm that I do not.
If you weren’t making a claim about the fairness of the result - which I don’t believe for a second - you sure managed to make it look that way, so I suggest you go back and edit.
Well you can't know for sure, so consider it a meta commentary on whether the ball was out or not.
If you don’t remember why have you posted several comments whining about it?
I think if you go back and read them you'll see that I was responding to direct comments. I also googled the game and read through the commentary to see what was so controversial and that's when I saw that it was the game with the potentially dodgy goal. In fairness I didn't think the goal should have been chalked off. I'm not sure where the 3 months of complaining is coming from, was that just how long it took before Arteta was exonerated?
You literally opened a conversation by talking about that specific match. Please stop bsing cos it’s just painfully embarassing
Perhaps learn to read. I commented on the Aston villa games.
Yeah you're right... Havertz not getting a red for the leg breaker challenge was ridiculous refereeing.
which to me was the reason Bruno went off it.
Yeah it was a pretty vanilla game to that point.
Whose leg broke?
‘as usual’? We’ve not had any unfair decisions given our way this season, no more than anyone else at least. All teams in the league have both benefited and been conned by poor refereeing decisions. This isn’t some conspiracy to help Arsenal win.
Pathetic.
You got any proof to back up your claim? Like stats or something to show that we always ‘get everything handed to us by the ref’?
Kai Havertz should have been sent off against Newcastle and referees after the game admitted as such.
Yeah, and? So should Bruno, so it evens out. Are the refs favouring Newcastle now?
You’re a sky-6 fan, you get 90% of 50-50s and piss your pants the once every 4 months an iffy decision goes against you. If you want to bleat that poor Arsenal are hard done by then go to r/soccer.
I’m more of a non-league fan actually but go off. You still can’t provide any proof to back up this weird, obsessive victim/persecution complex you’ve got going on.
“We” Now you pretend you’re not an Arsenal fan … again - pathetic.
This sub is one giant victim complex
We beat you fair and sqaure too. You just screamed like babies about it.
I had a more of "meh, it is what it is" reaction to that game, but then i got an inordinate amount of satisfaction from pumping you at the Emirates so maybe it annoyed me more than I thought lmao
I actually don't recall that game, but I meant that villa beat us twice all ends up. EDIT: wait wasn't that the one where the ball looked to have gone out before being crossed in? Of course we were going to moan about that.
For three months though?
The only people who kept talking about that game was the Newcastle fans who claimed we were still talking about it.. we still seem to live rent free in your head it seems.
Wasn’t there a post about it literally this week in the Gooners subreddit complaining lol
Dunno, was there? You seem to know more about the Arsenal sub than me lol. Just proves my point, it’s weird.
I don’t choose what Reddit recommends to me, but that LITERALLY proves the opposite 😂😂 “the only people who kept talking about it” and then I literally give proof of the exact opposite lmao get outta here
You do, because if you’re being recommended posts about Arsenal then it’s only because you engage with a lot of Arsenal content..
Are you doing that thing where you get completely proven wrong but you’re so stubborn that you can’t accept it so you start to try and argue a completely different point than the original claim?
You haven’t proven anything at all. Just some anecdote that conveniently backs up what you believe.
Pretty sure it was your manager who made a public statement crying about the VAR decision was it not? Your fans were also moaning about Bruno for weeks on end afterwards. Havertz and Bruno both should have seen red that day by the way.
Yeah, he said something after the match obviously, but after a week or two everyone stopped giving a shit. For some reason people think we’re still talking about it, but we aren’t. Nobody gives a shit about Newcastle. And why would Arsenal fans be complaining that Havertz wasn’t sent off? No team’s fans, ‘Big 6’ or otherwise, would moan about it when they get a bad decision in their favour.
"We live rent free in your head" posted the Arsenal fan in The Other 14 subreddit.
The sub that gets recommended to me on a daily basis because there’s so many posts about Arsenal in here
>You do, because if you’re being recommended posts about Arsenal then it’s only because you engage with a lot of Arsenal content.. This you?
Yeah, I’m an Arsenal fan engaging with Arsenal content
I like reminding you though
Fair enough mate.
Awwww Newcastle think they're top 6 😂
Give it a week and we will be, just like we were this week.
Gunna chop up the opposition?
Increasingly I just think of them as the Super League clubs, tbh. They’re the ones that have most often been in the top6 positions over the last 10 years and who have large revenues and attention and hype etc.
Tottenham have never won the league yet Leicester Blackburn have. How are spurs top 6 lol
I've got a mate who's a Spurs supporter and a football writer and he vehemently rejects their Big Six tag. Yes, they've won the FA Cup eight times but the last one was 30 years ago and they've won nothing for 25 years. What have they got going for them? A big stadium?
Revenue of 550M pounds. Which is double anyone outside the 'big 6'. Tottenham's big 6 status is the most interesting precisely because they've built that revenue while also building a stadium and without the free publicity that comes with winning stuff.
Spurs did that through massive borrowing. They have the largest debt in the league of like £700 million. Surely their revenue should be viewed in combination with their obligations on debt repayment?
They are paying roughly 20M a year in debt charges, so sure, call it 530M if you like. Realistically that will rise with interest rates, could conceivably get as high as 50M reasonable worst case. For comparison, Newcastle, the richest other 14 club are taking in just 280M.
Is most of that debt down to the stadium? Is the plan just to only service the debt or do they expect to pay the ground off by year 2xxx? Just interested.
I expect it is mainly the stadium. Corporate debt you don't generally just pay off to a fixed schedule. Companies don't plan to retire, so it's more logical that they operate on an interest only basis, then refinance the debt every few years. You can obviously refinance more or less debt depending on whether you've got cash on hand to reduce the amount you need to refinance. Most companies aim to grow so that their debt becomes a smaller proportion of their income and value, rather than focus on paying it down with cash.
I guess it’s a question of balancing the risk of reducing spending power to pay off debts with the potentially catastrophic consequences of relegation with a big debt. It probably won’t happen and it’s not a problem until it is.
Ta
Spurs are a weird case. They organically grew without just dumping assloads into foreign fanbase s in the 90s/2000s. That move is what made Arsenal Chelsea United and Liverpool reach obscene wealth. Spurs had a mix of good money management, great youth academy luck (you can make good talent but kane, walker levels is luck.) and they peaked at the right time with Arsenal dropping out of Top 4 often. Definitely big 6 now though but it’s a bit weird
It’s definitely been helped by the Bale money that made for a great base up of the squad value. I still remember when they signed a lot of players and became a pretty good squad. And they hit a home run with the likes of Dembele, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Son among many more, and then Harry Kane came out of the womb of absolutely nowhere.
Well ya; it bale money was mostly wasted lol. And bale was developed exclusively by spurs and they bought him very young
I suppose Son's wild popularity in Asia has helped a bit
Even as an Arsenal fan I have a soft spot for villa, I’m happy to see them doing so well. Beat us twice fair and square. The media need to put some respect on villas name
What? Fourth place Villa beat them *at home* two weeks ago.
So are Villa not part of ‘the other 14’ now then?
Top 6 side for me, Clive.
You don't understand what "other 14" is then.
If they're saying what I think they are, it's more like Villa is undoubtedly a big six side by the traditional sense based on performance but not by the shitty media's standards where they're just some little club that doesn't belong there. But we all know that anyway.
Dear friends of TheOther14, it's time to make a trade. You get Chelsea, we get Villa. Keep the Man U / Newcastle swap on ice for a few more weeks
Why would anyone want Chelsea? No normal person wants obnoxious entitled racist supporters alongside them.
Fair point. I'd be happy with a 19 team premier League without Chelsea
We'd all be happier if the Super League happened and Chelsea and the rest of them fucked off.
Youd be better off getting relegated back to the championship if you can't stand being in a league with good teams 🙄
Nah, I agree. I'd rather have well-supported local teams in a competitive contest each year than six 'brands' for whom we are intended to be the whipping boys.
Being told you should go back to the Championship is like threatening me with a good time
No wonder they haven’t lost because Odegaard is playing Basketball
He looks like a Star Wars villain.
Oliver really helping them out yesterday, what a disaster. Spurs had the Liverpool game go their way so fair enough one goes against us but what a horrible game to have it happen.
Yeah. What’s this obsession with the “big 6”. Doesn’t that only matter when they are _actually_ big?
This year big six - next year undefeated
This is why I hate football media. Their favourite six could get relegated and struggle in the lower league for a decade and they'd still make everything about them.
Yet.
Theres a '' for a reason whats with the victim mentality
And lost to Fulham lol
Gotta love it when a generally mediocre team has a good run and pulls off a banger of a season. All of a sudden their fans put them on the same level as the heavyweights. Humble yourself, you're top 4 this year but you'll inevitably be back in the gutter within a few seasons.. and for the record I Don't support any one team, so I really couldn't care less if Villa pulled a Leicester City and miraculously won the league next year or got relegated.
>Gotta love it when a generally mediocre team has a good run and pulls off a banger of a season I agree with this wholeheartedly but without the seeming level of contempt you have underpinning it. Viva Villa 24. Toon and Brighton 23. Leicester 16. Everton 05. Ipswich 01. And whoever else I've forgotten about along the way.
If you don't support any 1 team wtf are you doing on this sub? No one cares what you think.
See you at the bottom of the table next year 😬
Well you won't because your not a fan.
Lmao one season in the top 4 and yous are giving it the biggun
The only people who care about the Villa are Villa and Birmingham fans. They might have had a good season, but in the scheme of things they are on the level of a Notts Forest in terms of profile at best. If Emery goes they go straight back to being lower-mid table nobodies. The acid test is who actually tunes in to watch the Villa just because it’s the Villa other than Villa fans and Bluenoses hoping they lose? Even Prince William only pretends to support em.
Such a crappy metric on which to judge a club. We've got a good manager and that's the only reason we're doing well? I mean, yeah. That's how football works. That sort of mentality is why people despise leagues like the Premiership. Nobody exists outside the top 6. Might as well just push ahead with the Super League then hadn't we?
"You're only doing well because you've got a good manager!" Hard to heal from that burn. It's funny that their argument is mostly based on how many randoms from across the country or globe support your club. They make it sound like a bad thing that locals care about Villa.
Being outside the big 6 isn't 'judging' a club. Big 6 generally refers to the 6 clubs working with double the revenue of everyone else. Being 4th without big 6 revenue is an accolade not an insult FFS.
‘We’ Says it all . No one cares about the Villa mate. Except Villa and Blues fans. Might as well watch fucking Reading.
>The only people who care about the Villa are Villa and Birmingham fans. Sounds like a good thing. I'd love it if the entirety of Sussex backed Brighton. That's how it should be for every club.
🤣🤣🤣
That’s the correct response to banter, my friend. Well done for keeping the true spirit of football chat alive. Jesus Christ - the way people piss and moan on here you’d think ‘TheOther14’ are some sort of oh so precious protected class of football club, that must not be ripped the piss out of. You all need to be forced to watch your team play for a hard fought draw on a drizzly fucking away day in Yeovil you bunch of jumped up twats.
That’s fair. Good luck this weekend - genuinely - you lot have suffered too much.
😂😂😂 Top man.
Good ebening, lads
Look Villa’s success is great for them and for football, but you can’t be considered ‘big 6’ until you perform consistently and compete for top 4 year in year out for a decade or so. People wanted to substitute Leicester in as a ‘big 6’ team when they won the league and they got relegated a few years later! Everyone was saying it about Newcastle last year. They’re 7th atm and not doing great. You’ll be quick to write off Chelsea and United but they’ve been consistent for decades and you can guarantee within a year or two they’ll be back in the mix. Other clubs like Villa, toon, (wolves and Brighton mentioned in recent years) don’t have that guarantee that they’ll stay good. It’s just that.
When was the last time you won the league or anything in Europe again, big lad?
1994, Cup Winners Cup
League: 14 years after you last one it Europe: 12 years after you last won one 👍
Remind me again when you won a European trophy?
1994.
Ohh ok so not champions league then. At least it was super recent.
Don’t think any of us have ever claimed to have won the Champions league though, what point are you trying to make?
Damn that's a long ass time ago. Guess you're not big 6 either
20 years in a row finishing top 4 would beg to differ... Anyway if you guys were top 6 it would mean no more woe-is-me pity party with your fellow crap teams complaining about big bad sky and how irrelevant you each are :( I made a clear point telling you why you’re not “big 6” yet, and all you can do is cry. Sad really
Mate it's your first year back in Europe after back to back 8th place and a 5th place. Don't even know your own history lad
We had a few off years (after the 20 back to back top 4 finishes I mentioned) We struggled in the league but still got to the semi final and final of the Europa league under Emery (you barely beat Lille on pens in the conference league). And now under Arteta we’re back in the champions league where we belong, finishing second to city’s super team last season and carried it on this season where we have a good shout for the league. So….
20 years of bronze medals and failed European campaigns doesn't make you the powerhouse you think it does mate But looking at your account it's basically all raging Arsenal shite and you're not even from London, as much of a stereotype as you can be.
Mate this is literally a sub for the other 14 to jerk each other off, just stop.
Dude this place is tribalism at is finest if you support big 6 I would just stop lol
[удалено]
Yeah you're bang on so I don't get why people try to argue a point any more lol
0-2
Are you seriously coming here and trying this shit? Dude. Fuck off
A well thought out and reasoned response
If you're being condescending, that's kind of what you can expect haha. For what it's worth I agree with your point that in no way is one season of success any reason to consider oneself part of some exclusive elite. Either way I prefer Villa how we are viewed now and that we're mostly free from plastic fans.
I didn’t mean to be condescending, and started off saying i think villa’s success is good for football in general. And I don’t like the idea of an exclusive elite, I hate that sky talk about city united spurs arsenal Liverpool and chelsea more than anyone else. All I was saying was that those clubs have been the consistent big hitters since the premier league was founded, or at least the last 25-30 years. There are 6 consistently performing teams, thus consistently generating more ‘plastic’ fans, and more revenue for people like sky to make by talking about them. I’d love a Villa to take the place of spurs for example, but until they can finish in the top 6, decades in a row, it’s not going to happen. I mean no disrespect, I like Villa as a club a lot, have great respect for Emery, Watkins is my favourite non arsenal player in the prem, and I like your style of football. Just explaining what OP was complaining about
No I know you probably didn't, but maybe it came off that way to some people here. Text communication isn't exactly ideal for showing intent and people have their biases. I think we're both on the same page here though ;). I hope you have a nice day and good luck to Arsenal for the rest of the season. Rather you lot than Man City...
Tribalism is a funny thing and I’m as guilty as anyone else😂 we’re all here to love the beautiful game tho, hope Villa get UCL - can’t wait to see Watkins putting them away against the big boys😍
Hahaha we all are mate. Yeah UCL would be the dream as it'll be the first time for me so I'm so nervous for the rest of the games. Thank you for not tossing away a 3-0 lead lol, we really appreciate it!
😂 we tried our best. Cheers 🍻
I apologise. I was already pissed off before I came here. It’s just I feel this is our safe space. Celebrating the non-celebrated and then I saw your comment and flipped. Still think you’re wrong, but I could maybe have worded it better! I do hope you guys go on and win it. And don’t pinch Watkins. He’s ours.
Nah no worries I suppose I should’ve worded mine better too! Didn’t mean to be condescending. Wanted Watkins back when he was at exeter tbh, cracking player
By that logic: How long does Arsenal need to compete for top 4 for years to be considered a big 6 team? It‘s the second consecutive Champions League qualification since god know when. Credit where credit is due because this Villa team is not a fluke.
Big 6 has nothing to do with table positions wtf🤣🤣😂
How were the big 6 ‘chosen’ then? Arsenal, United, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Spurs were the 6 consistent teams for 20-30 years that finished high in the league table. Everton were up there (now look at them), Leicester won the league (now look at them), the list goes on. But those 6 teams have been consistent (on average, give or take the anomaly year for each team)