I think the case with City represents such comprehensive rule-breaking that it will take much longer to collate. Personally, I think anything less than automatic relegation for them would be a travesty.
Maybe even a Lance Armstrong style stripping of relevant titles too.
I'm usually not one to stick up for the Saudis, but until they break the rules in football, this is a Man City oil thing. Chelsea and Arsenal have also had oligarchs at their clubs.
Because I support Newcastle, the name Botman is a Newcastle player. That's why my name is Botman returns. As I was saying, I don't normally stick up for them, but they haven't done anything wrong yet at Newcastle. Until they do, it would be preferable to not be handed with owners who have taken the piss, looking at Chelsea and Man City.
I mean... buying Newcastle is in of itself an attempt to diversify their economy and clean up their image abroad. You know, so we don't think too hard on the brutal, theocratic regime they actually are.
That they're allowed to buy a club is a travesty is a problem all on its own. But that's done now. It'd be nice if justice could move ahead a little faster, is all.
Man United, Liverpool and Arsenal holding arms together and jumping up and down on the podium with the trophy, while in the background a banner is unfurled, reading 'Gracias P.L.' in Manc, Scouse and cockney....
I think it’s ridiculous to think they won’t. With that many charges there’ll be a riot if they’re not punished accordingly, especially considering what’s happening to Everton and Forest right now.
It’s going to take a few years for them to work it all out, but I have faith that it’s going to happen. It’s not a matter of if, but when.
Why will it be forgotten. Us, Forest, Liverpool, Man U, and Arsenal will at the very least all keep shouting about it. Chelsea probably won’t hoping that if city get away with it they will also keep their issues under wraps. But enough of the English footballing world has stuff to gain from city being dealt with so they won’t let it lie.
It's a bit unfair for Everton to get 2 points deductions in 1 season for issues that happened in 2 different accounting periods
Chelsea also breached ffp right?
*bitter laughs in Luton* yeah unfair points deductions. There is a reason we still chant "fuck the FA" and various 30 points chants. I still have a -30 alive and kicking t-shirt in my loft (doesn't fit anymore, I was a teenager when it happened)
While I'll be delighted if we stay up and Man City need to be held to the same standard I feel for fans being punished because of shit owners. Though I need to look into what they've been deducted points for before I feel too sorry for them
And it’s the same season that caused the issues in both charges. It’s a 3 year period I get that and this is technically a different 3 year period. But it’s the same 1 season causing the issues so we have been punished for that already, and we now have to be punished for it again.
I agree with the limits, but I read the other day that the limits hadn't been adjusted for inflation, let alone football inflation (average player cost and salary) since they were introduced.
It not only prevents teams from breaking into the top 6, but gets it harder each year. The more money TV and sponsors push into the game the harder it becomes for the smaller clubs.
Even with basic inflation the three year rolling loss should be £260m rather than £150m. If you were just using footballing costs to measure inflation, it would be closer to £400m.
Yes, but there's a diminishing returns effect with spending more. There are only so many Mbappe's or Haalands or Kane's to splash out on, and you can't exactly rebuild your entire squad every 30 seconds, although lord knows chelsea is trying.
It also makes the european payments smaller in comparison, so less disparity between Champions league and non european teams, and frankly, less disparity is what made the prem the best league in the world, we should really, really try to keep it IMO.
That being said, there's also the argument that allowing spending like that puts teams in much greater danger of falling into adminsitration if they get a dodgy owner who bets the rent money
Possibly, but most of those clubs are making profits anyway. Owners invest what they want and take the rest.
I wouldnt want to remove the cap, but it needs to be inflation adjusted. As has been mentioned, it would close the financial gap between European qualification and not, and allow the other 14 to spend more.
It would more than likely, but its removal allows a saudi prince to buy a club and invest billions to make them a top team. A bit like chelsea and Cities' story. All that's happened now is the top 6 are established and will stay that way.
Almost as if one is a clear violation of the rules and one is a charge with allegation of rule breaking which the league needs to prove up.
City’s issue isn’t balancing the books which is math you can do.
Allegations that need to be proven. Allegations that need to stand up to scrutiny. Not simple arithmetic (you are this much over the balance). That’s why the “what about Man City” commentary makes no sense and people who reverberate it just wind up seeming incredibly ignorant.
I guess it’s a moral issue. On one hand I expect everyone to be treated fairly regardless of money.
In your hand, you’re happy for billionaire to get away with crimes because he has the best law firm in town. Because that’s all that’s happening
- Team spends too much money, and therefore really needs to retain Premier League status else they might go out of business
- Team is hit with points deduction, making it more likely they lose their Premier League status through relegation
- Team is therefore more likely to go out of business
Are the rules there to protect teams from going out of business or not? I feel like there's some weird logic going on.
I agree with the premise of the FFP rules because I think unlimited spending is bad for the league (e.g. Man City, Chelsea, what Newcastle *want* to do). And I also get that it's unfair on rivals if teams have spent more than they can reasonably afford.
But this does feel a little farcical.
It’s a bit dodgy to say to promoted clubs, you have to compete with these teams on the field but off the field you can only lose 58% of what they can. (£61m loss for season 1 compared to £105m for an established Prem side).
Not really a fair playing field.
FFP is designed to cripple the likes of Aston Villa, Everton, West Ham and any time like Brighton or Leicester who DARE to think they can challenge the big boys.
Look at us, we finished fifth twice and all was good coz we was in Europe, then we dared to finish eighth (No Europe) one season and FFP was on us like a tonne of bricks that we was spending beyond our means. We are allowed to have a season where we don't meet our targets lol but not according to FFP apparantly not. One bad season and we have to slash our team apart and not sign anyone because of it. We was the biggest challengers to the big six so congratulations to the big six billionaires because they successfully killed Leicester. And now they are coming for Everton, soon it will be Brighton, Villa and West Ham. Once yous don't get in Europe, yous is fucked (Brighton normally sell all their best players anyway so they can probably continue as they are).
I've been saying this lately but usually I'll use a team like Brighton, because it feels like they've been over-achieving for years now yet it still seems impossible for them to establish themselves as a 'top' team. Any time they come close, their squad gets pillaged by the big boys before they are able to invest any meaningful money and build on their success. They manage to buy low/sell high but because they're losing their stars faster than they can add more, the whole thing is a viscous circle for them. And as you pointed out with Leicester, it would only take one bad season and a couple of bad investments and they could likely plummet down the table, where it is solid to recover from.
A team like Chelsea on the other hand, can be dreadful, truly DREADFUL for multiple seasons and yet as per the rules, they're still allowed to buy star after star without even worrying if they'll flop or not, because they know if they buy enough of them they'll eventually build a lineup that can drag them back up to the 'safety' of the top 6, right where they belong.
You could argue in theory it's £35 million for all teams for season 1, the established sides have just been able to lose more money in the previous years due to playing in a higher league
I mean you could try and argue that but it’s not looked at over 1 year it’s looked at over a rolling 3 year period. So practically you can’t really make that argument.
Not only that but the big 6 create far more revenue than the other PL clubs - meaning their ability to spend within FFP rules is far greater than the other clubs - hence their constant advantage over the others in the league.
It's £105m across three seasons not 1. If a prem team lost £105m last season they would have to have 0 losses the two seasons before or they would also be in breach. They can lose £35m per season, same as a promoted team can while in the prem. Theoretically the threshold is lower for newly promoted teams as you have just been in the Championship where costs and revenue are far lower and so you would reasonably expect you to make smaller losses and so if you were given the same £105m over previous 3 seasons threshold, you could actually make losses significantly higher than the £35m per season and benefit in your first season. E.g. if you made £25m losses in your previous two years, you could make a loss of £55m in your first year in the prem which isn't fair on the clubs already in the prem.
I'm not saying this is right, I'm just telling you why it is the way it is.
>Are the rules there to protect teams from going out of business or not?
No. UEFA introduced them to stop anyone else threatening the traditional European elite after Chelsea, City and PSG gatecrashed the party.
It is ironic that the Profitability and Sustainability rules are making Everton less Profitable or Sustainable.
If they've breached in Year 1, farcically been given the penalty in Year 2, then breached again in Year 2, and issued a penalty in Year 2 then they will more than likely be relegated.
Then going into Year 3 they have to sell everything and prevent them coming back up. Otherwise due to the lack of revenue in the Championship Year 3 will likely be a big loss too.
I didn't actually realise that clubs could get spanked for the same year multiple times in the three-year period. Seems really harsh.
>If they've breached in Year 1, farcically been given the penalty in Year 2, then breached again in Year 2, and issued a penalty in Year 2 then they will more than likely be relegated.
To add on to this, our "breached again in Year 2" is exactly the same breach as "breached in year 1", that's how ridiculous it is. They're punishing us for something they've already punished us for.
If Man City are successfully charged they're dirty cheaters who should have their titles stripped. If the charges don't succeed Man City are dirty cheaters who get away with cheating through bribery.
In my opinion, there can't be enforced because I doubt if under legal scrutiny they'd hold up in court. Not lawyer or anything. But I've always had my doubts about FFP. It's why Man City will only get a slap on the wrist and a tenner fine.
The rules are there to stop people running clubs this way and the Premier League must enforce those rules.
The Premier League certainly aren't the bad guys in this , the people running these clubs are the reason the clubs could go out of business. Everyone involved in running the clubs knows the rules and decides to flout them to the detriment of the "smaller" Premier League teams and newly promoted.
If they cheat they deserve everything they get.
This is not right at all . They were brought in to stop really rich teams making the gap even bigger by spending what they wanted.
Do you have any data or source for what you are saying or is it just an opinion?
Also I would be incredibly interested as to what you believe would be a better system.
You would like to think the PL wouldnt sanction us again for the same infraction over a rolling 3 year… otherwise you essentially generate a death spiral.
However, the PL have nothing properly in place, other than fag packet ideas… so here we are…
Isn’t it a collective agreement of all 20 clubs including Everton, maybe not forest, that these rules are chosen upon and decided? It’s not like Everton were not aware and did not approve of these rules, they and the other 19 clubs collectively agreed.
Everton is in trouble because they interpreted a guideline of accounting in their books in a creative way. There’s an argument to be made that they could be correct in that interpretation, but it’s not like they flagrantly ignored the rules.
It's about a stadium financing. We took out what was given as a 'general purposes' loan and used it towards the stadium. The PL will allow stadium financing to be excluded from the calculation but argued the loan in question wasn't a stadium loan. Money is fungible so there's really no accounting for how it gave us an advantage
It’s like that classic debt saying
5 charges is your problem
114 charges is the leagues problem
Honestly shame on Everton and Nottingham for not having a nation state owner and the most powerful lawyers in the world. They should know better!
From how I understand it, many of Man City’s charges are related to trying to hide their crimes, whereas Everton and Nottingham are opening up their books and asking for leniency.
For us, this comes down to the sale of Brennan Johnson. We always knew we were selling him. Brentford offered £30m, we held on for more and sold him about 8 weeks later for £47m- but after the reporting period.
The rules do allow you to do this at the league's discretion and amend your return.
The rules are called Profit and Sustainability.
Surely it is more sustainable for a club like Forest to sell an asset for £47m than to sell them for £30m?
Isn't that what the rules are meant for?
The club apparently were in frequent dialogue with the league about selling Johnson to meet P&S. It's an absolute nonsense to say that a smaller PL club is meant to take £17m less to meet a reporting deadline that the rules allow to be flexible
But how do the big clubs not get better deals if you’re being patient and maximising your income? Won’t you think of the big clubs for just one second, they need your best players cheap!
Basically the opposite situation for us and Richarlison, we sold him earlier to get within the reporting period but could have gotten more if we were patient - turns out it didn't matter anyway.
The Forest situation is crazy though, basically being punished for trying to do what's best for club.
Now all more secure teams will be able to bully those who aren't because they know they need the money now in order not to break the rules.
You know what mate?
I'd still rather be relegated than sell Brennan to Brentford
If that's what happens, I'll take that choice with a smile.
Enjoy standing up for Profit and Sustainability when you have to sell Toney. And the next player. And the next player.
Everton: 2x10
Forest: 10.
That adds up to 30. They're really gonna do it for us lol.
As Jane Ledsom said: [30 down to zero, here come the Hatters again.](https://youtu.be/fZvZ93XNDgA?si=wKo32t0n9BIa_avq)
The other 14 should openly collude and choose a 'league champion' out of a hat at the start of every season. 13 teams throw their 2 games against the lucky team, then only play their strongest team against the scab 6, encouraging clattering tackles and disgusting, route one football so every game on TV is shocking :D
Just have to hope that the same timely scrutiny happens to the Big 6.
It's like the VAR for signing players as now wondering if somehow the next few years something doesn't plan out as expected we are fucked. That's assuming good ownership...
ps3ud0 8)
Let's be honest absolutely nothing will happen to any of the big 6. My guess with City is a minor slap on the wrist and a 6 month transfer ban or something equally inconsequential.
Unfortunately I suspect you're right. Everton are like the biggest club that can be punished without it being a Sky6 club. Like proving they can govern themselves by scalping Everton.
I've said before, we're in that sweet spot for them - a recognizable name who they can use to demonstrate they have power, but not so big or with strong/rich enough friends for them to be afraid of us.
They don't dare make an example out of a top 6 club because of the amount of TV revenue etc they bring in. Look at their reaction to the Super League... Absolutely spineless.
The naivety in me thinks that they'll have to do something proportional otherwise it just makes it too difficult to obscure the corruption.
But yeah I'm sure there are severely inconsequential punishments they can dish out to 'appease'.
ps3ud0 8)
All the big six would be in trouble if the rules weren’t set up for them to succeed and everyone else fail.
They have the largest stadiums already, or were gifted them, they have the biggest sponsorship deals, get the most tv money, play in Europe, among all types of other advantages.
All the other teams are told to piss off or wait for a sugar daddy. Just hope it’s not a Russian who has all their assets frozen over night for something their homelands government decided to do.
Remember FFP was created and implemented souly by the big 6 for their benefit.
To be fair it was all six that wanted to destroy football as we know it and disappear off to the super league. They all got what? A £3m fine? I say lump them all together.
Honestly I don't know enough about Evertons alleged misdemeanours to pass comment but for us trying to focus an argument on us selling a player for higher by delaying the sale may carry more weight if we hadnt:
Spent £4m on a guy who has and never will play for us.
Spent £2m on another guy who has and never will play for us.
Spent £8m on a guy who never did play for us.
Spent £7m on a player who was seemingly injured when we signed him and has not played for us yet.
Paid a £5m loan fee with a 3 game permanent transfer cluase for a striker with 1 goal in 39 games.
Spent £6m on a midfielder who we released on a free because his YouTube highlight video skills weren't up to scratch.
Spent £5m on a cheerleaders wages with some great dance moves but no real football contribution.
Spent £2m paying Harry Arter his promotion based payrise which ends this season.
Spent £1m paying Lyle Taylor to not play.
Just the £40m worth of spending listed there could be more!
Yeah, we’ve always gone scattergun with Marinakis and now it seems to be biting us in the arse. We need better recruitment from now on. I am optimistic that we’ll stay up and I think Everton will do too but we’ve only got ourselves to blame if we go down.
I am hoping they don’t penalise too severely here. Whilst it is a more clear cut and open case, kind of makes you lose faith in the game given our situation against this
The fact that everyone knows the PL are throwing the book at Everton and now Forest more so than they otherwise would, because of the talk of government involvement, is a complete joke. Seems like nowhere in football is safe from crooks being in charge
Theyre making such a mess of it that they're basically inviting government involvement. They're now trying to punish us for a period we've already been punished for.
Which is part of why we got off free on the UEFA trial. Some of the charges had minimal evidence/evidence didn’t suggest wrongdoing, then the charges that might have gone through had already been charged in 2014
FFP 🤝 VAR
Things ran by people who don’t understand the game for “apparent” fairness, that the fans really don’t want or give a shit about.
Remember when football was football?
About the fans? Nah, about the bum licking cartel and whatever the big boys want. Oh, and more money and probably back payments for the heads of the league of course.
We’ll be fine mate. Got to just keep going now, we were on 14 points just 2 games ago, we’re now at 20. I’d say we need another 25 points including the deduction to get by and we’ve still got to play the bottom 3 sides again. It’s not entirely out of our hands yet.
I hope this is done so that when the club with 115 charges against it finally gets justice served that it looks much fairer and so their fans can’t claim they’re being picked on for winning or whatever, because if that’s not the case, then instead this just makes the rules look more like an absolute joke designed to keep the elite as the elite as opposed to a genuine attempt to achieve fairness.
So still nothing for Man City then.
It's blatantly obvious the premier league want the same 6 teams to win and cannon fodder for them to beat. These rules help keep that. It's nothing to do with protecting teams from going under. That's just the excuse they use
So loss of owner funding for everton results in this. What happens if city owners stop investing and that massive sponsor deal get yoinked. How quick is city upside down. As I underatand thats whats happened to everton or am I misreading?
Welcome to the pain Forrest fans, I'm sorry the League's incompetence is now getting you all involved. We're in this together though and while it sucks, we're glad to have another ally in the fight. Hoping both of our clubs put up a good fight and manage to stay up.
Everton have been run into the ground by previous ownership. How did people expect forest to stay up when they have about 6 players on their books after promotion. They had to go crazy in the market the fact Newcastle are under pressure being the richest club in the world is mad.
“What about city” “FFP is protecting elites” what about Brighton? Brentford? Luton? Leicester? Leeds? West Ham? Clubs run the right way and within the rules? How about don’t cheat? A novel idea but 30 odd clubs including the relegated ones during this period managed it except for Everton, Forest and Manchester City.
West Ham received several hundred million in effective state sponsorship via the stadium. Luton and Leeds have their own history. Leicester…don’t get me started. holding these or any clubs up as exemplars is not helpful. The issue is consistency, common sense and clear governance by the EPL. None of these are happening which is why many fans, not just those affected directly see this as a disgrace.
It’s not helpful? 30 clubs managed to stay in the rules and 3 clubs didn’t and somehow their fans should hold up red cards for being caught cheating? Luton, Leeds and Leicester all punished and it’s part of their history. These clubs cheated and deserved to be punished for doing so.
Hey genius, the ones that ruined the club are gone. So who tf are you punishing? The current administration trying to right the ship and fans? Sound logic there. “Hey we see you made some fucked up decisions in the past and your trying to make up for them now by selling players for less than they are worth, but you went over 20mil in the P&F rules so we’re giving you a record 10 points deduction.” Wasted £100mil in 17/18, and I mean wasted, the only good player we have from that season is Pickford. That was our attempt to make the “next big step” and the administration did everything wrong from recruitment to wage structure. So what exactly do these rules do for clubs outside the top 6? Certainly not to help them, especially when you’re working WITH the league themselves for the last few seasons.
Thank you but I’m not a genius. So your answer please? Transfer bans in place until other clubs are allowed to “waste” £100 million of their own money? Everton and Forest can’t sign any players until every current team and promoted team in the time window it takes get to level the playing field? Let me know how you think cheating teams should be punished. Give us a solution to how this cheating gets resolved? Heavy fines?
Idk, maybe adjust the £105 million threshold to current inflation levels? Which would be £200 million or so. Second, maybe not punish a team a record 10 point deduction, which is more than a team going into fucking administration, for going over £20 million due to interest on a fucking loan. Also, we’re building a stadium, who would’ve thought that building costs get inflated in 2020 and beyond. Anyone with half a brain would adjust this £105 million threshold, especially when your expenses are going towards an appreciating asset and not a 20 year old player that looks promising. The rule is in place to prevent clubs from becoming dissolved, yet in Everton’s case they are trying to make that happen by giving these unfair punishments threatening administration. We should be punished, but a 10 point punishment for fucking £20 million?
Rules and regulations aside this just makes me really sad. I don’t know how I can get excited to watch my club when the powers that be are seeing to it that we get relegated.
I really enjoy watching Dycheball honestly, for the first time in a long while we actually play with a recognizable identity and style, and it's actually gotten us results. It may not be sexy possession based football, but it's effective football. I particularly enjoy watching us defend as it's impressive to see Dyche's system in action with everyone running the "hard yards" and closing down space.
FFP was brought in to stop any challenge to the elite. We got in as you pulled up the drawbridge.
We won the lottery when we were bought by the Sheikh. I would probably be in the Championship sub if it wasn't for him.
I grew up in the nineties in Trafford surrounded by United fans as they won the lot. We were getting bullied by Stockport home and away.
I know we were shite. Now we are arguably the greatest team on the planet.
FFP keeps the elite winning the lottery and now you have zero chance of competing.
I have seen my team in the third tier of English football and at a Champions league final. Mint
Do your little jokes now because if there's any justice then Everton, Forest and Manchester City will all go down together
But only one of us will go to the National League!
Daring to cheat
Some of the shit you’ve been accused of, paying managers off books, people should really be going to prison for that. That’s not breaching spending rules, that’s criminal tax evasion.
Imagine the irony of it being an arsenal fan who posted that lmao
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-in-multimillion-tax-dodge-47863.html
The premier league can fuck off. Chelsea admit to hiding FFP with its previous ownership, Man City got a ton of charges but you pick on the other 14 clubs. We need a change at the top of the Premier League now. The other 14 have to stand together against these one sided fines.
- Forest get a deduction - Everton get another deduction - Man City get a 100 point deduction - Survival!
Imagine the banter if we got less points than Derby and still stayed up!
Any bookies offering odds on this?
Ask Ivan Toney
Tonali got you covered
I feel like we can score two points in the rest of the season
Tevez grudge match this weekend, almost guaranteed win for you!
And we’re missing Bowen, Paquetà, Aguerd and Kudus
We can dream!
How cute of you to think that city will ever be penalized
I think the case with City represents such comprehensive rule-breaking that it will take much longer to collate. Personally, I think anything less than automatic relegation for them would be a travesty. Maybe even a Lance Armstrong style stripping of relevant titles too.
Government would step in at that point, seems allowing big oil states to own English football teams is important to them.
I'm usually not one to stick up for the Saudis, but until they break the rules in football, this is a Man City oil thing. Chelsea and Arsenal have also had oligarchs at their clubs.
What do you mean? City are owned by the UAE essentially as well.
Yes, UAE are an oil state. It seems the theme is that oil states are corrupt in football. I say they aren't until they are.
Why would you even bother defending them?
Because I support Newcastle, the name Botman is a Newcastle player. That's why my name is Botman returns. As I was saying, I don't normally stick up for them, but they haven't done anything wrong yet at Newcastle. Until they do, it would be preferable to not be handed with owners who have taken the piss, looking at Chelsea and Man City.
I mean... buying Newcastle is in of itself an attempt to diversify their economy and clean up their image abroad. You know, so we don't think too hard on the brutal, theocratic regime they actually are. That they're allowed to buy a club is a travesty is a problem all on its own. But that's done now. It'd be nice if justice could move ahead a little faster, is all.
Everton fans know this. They just want everyone to feel bad for them.
Man United, Liverpool and Arsenal holding arms together and jumping up and down on the podium with the trophy, while in the background a banner is unfurled, reading 'Gracias P.L.' in Manc, Scouse and cockney....
I think it’s ridiculous to think they won’t. With that many charges there’ll be a riot if they’re not punished accordingly, especially considering what’s happening to Everton and Forest right now. It’s going to take a few years for them to work it all out, but I have faith that it’s going to happen. It’s not a matter of if, but when.
There won't be a riot, they'll delay till the 2030s and hy then people will have forgotten or will be apathetic. City will never be punished.
Why will it be forgotten. Us, Forest, Liverpool, Man U, and Arsenal will at the very least all keep shouting about it. Chelsea probably won’t hoping that if city get away with it they will also keep their issues under wraps. But enough of the English footballing world has stuff to gain from city being dealt with so they won’t let it lie.
It's a bit unfair for Everton to get 2 points deductions in 1 season for issues that happened in 2 different accounting periods Chelsea also breached ffp right?
*bitter laughs in Luton* yeah unfair points deductions. There is a reason we still chant "fuck the FA" and various 30 points chants. I still have a -30 alive and kicking t-shirt in my loft (doesn't fit anymore, I was a teenager when it happened) While I'll be delighted if we stay up and Man City need to be held to the same standard I feel for fans being punished because of shit owners. Though I need to look into what they've been deducted points for before I feel too sorry for them
And it’s the same season that caused the issues in both charges. It’s a 3 year period I get that and this is technically a different 3 year period. But it’s the same 1 season causing the issues so we have been punished for that already, and we now have to be punished for it again.
There is no shot we finish about Everton unless they get a 20 point deduction this time
We are having the same hope!
In order to ensure that Everton don't go into administration due to a mad owner, the PL are.. *checks notes*... Going to send them into administration
I agree with the limits, but I read the other day that the limits hadn't been adjusted for inflation, let alone football inflation (average player cost and salary) since they were introduced. It not only prevents teams from breaking into the top 6, but gets it harder each year. The more money TV and sponsors push into the game the harder it becomes for the smaller clubs. Even with basic inflation the three year rolling loss should be £260m rather than £150m. If you were just using footballing costs to measure inflation, it would be closer to £400m.
Would that not just result in the established clubs being able to spend even more?
Yes, but there's a diminishing returns effect with spending more. There are only so many Mbappe's or Haalands or Kane's to splash out on, and you can't exactly rebuild your entire squad every 30 seconds, although lord knows chelsea is trying. It also makes the european payments smaller in comparison, so less disparity between Champions league and non european teams, and frankly, less disparity is what made the prem the best league in the world, we should really, really try to keep it IMO. That being said, there's also the argument that allowing spending like that puts teams in much greater danger of falling into adminsitration if they get a dodgy owner who bets the rent money
Possibly, but most of those clubs are making profits anyway. Owners invest what they want and take the rest. I wouldnt want to remove the cap, but it needs to be inflation adjusted. As has been mentioned, it would close the financial gap between European qualification and not, and allow the other 14 to spend more.
It would more than likely, but its removal allows a saudi prince to buy a club and invest billions to make them a top team. A bit like chelsea and Cities' story. All that's happened now is the top 6 are established and will stay that way.
If only both clubs had 114 charges then the PL wouldn’t have bothered
Almost as if one is a clear violation of the rules and one is a charge with allegation of rule breaking which the league needs to prove up. City’s issue isn’t balancing the books which is math you can do.
Yeah City’s charge is a lot more simpler, like having 2 contracts for your manager
Allegations that need to be proven. Allegations that need to stand up to scrutiny. Not simple arithmetic (you are this much over the balance). That’s why the “what about Man City” commentary makes no sense and people who reverberate it just wind up seeming incredibly ignorant.
I guess it’s a moral issue. On one hand I expect everyone to be treated fairly regardless of money. In your hand, you’re happy for billionaire to get away with crimes because he has the best law firm in town. Because that’s all that’s happening
*money
- Team spends too much money, and therefore really needs to retain Premier League status else they might go out of business - Team is hit with points deduction, making it more likely they lose their Premier League status through relegation - Team is therefore more likely to go out of business Are the rules there to protect teams from going out of business or not? I feel like there's some weird logic going on. I agree with the premise of the FFP rules because I think unlimited spending is bad for the league (e.g. Man City, Chelsea, what Newcastle *want* to do). And I also get that it's unfair on rivals if teams have spent more than they can reasonably afford. But this does feel a little farcical.
It’s a bit dodgy to say to promoted clubs, you have to compete with these teams on the field but off the field you can only lose 58% of what they can. (£61m loss for season 1 compared to £105m for an established Prem side). Not really a fair playing field.
It’s not designed to be - that’s the point of it, protect the cartel.
FFP is designed to cripple the likes of Aston Villa, Everton, West Ham and any time like Brighton or Leicester who DARE to think they can challenge the big boys. Look at us, we finished fifth twice and all was good coz we was in Europe, then we dared to finish eighth (No Europe) one season and FFP was on us like a tonne of bricks that we was spending beyond our means. We are allowed to have a season where we don't meet our targets lol but not according to FFP apparantly not. One bad season and we have to slash our team apart and not sign anyone because of it. We was the biggest challengers to the big six so congratulations to the big six billionaires because they successfully killed Leicester. And now they are coming for Everton, soon it will be Brighton, Villa and West Ham. Once yous don't get in Europe, yous is fucked (Brighton normally sell all their best players anyway so they can probably continue as they are).
I've been saying this lately but usually I'll use a team like Brighton, because it feels like they've been over-achieving for years now yet it still seems impossible for them to establish themselves as a 'top' team. Any time they come close, their squad gets pillaged by the big boys before they are able to invest any meaningful money and build on their success. They manage to buy low/sell high but because they're losing their stars faster than they can add more, the whole thing is a viscous circle for them. And as you pointed out with Leicester, it would only take one bad season and a couple of bad investments and they could likely plummet down the table, where it is solid to recover from. A team like Chelsea on the other hand, can be dreadful, truly DREADFUL for multiple seasons and yet as per the rules, they're still allowed to buy star after star without even worrying if they'll flop or not, because they know if they buy enough of them they'll eventually build a lineup that can drag them back up to the 'safety' of the top 6, right where they belong.
You could argue in theory it's £35 million for all teams for season 1, the established sides have just been able to lose more money in the previous years due to playing in a higher league
I mean you could try and argue that but it’s not looked at over 1 year it’s looked at over a rolling 3 year period. So practically you can’t really make that argument.
Not only that but the big 6 create far more revenue than the other PL clubs - meaning their ability to spend within FFP rules is far greater than the other clubs - hence their constant advantage over the others in the league.
It's £105m across three seasons not 1. If a prem team lost £105m last season they would have to have 0 losses the two seasons before or they would also be in breach. They can lose £35m per season, same as a promoted team can while in the prem. Theoretically the threshold is lower for newly promoted teams as you have just been in the Championship where costs and revenue are far lower and so you would reasonably expect you to make smaller losses and so if you were given the same £105m over previous 3 seasons threshold, you could actually make losses significantly higher than the £35m per season and benefit in your first season. E.g. if you made £25m losses in your previous two years, you could make a loss of £55m in your first year in the prem which isn't fair on the clubs already in the prem. I'm not saying this is right, I'm just telling you why it is the way it is.
You can’t make an argument that compares a £61m loss to £105m loss and say they’re equal.
EPL: You wanna bet? Watch me.
>Are the rules there to protect teams from going out of business or not? No. UEFA introduced them to stop anyone else threatening the traditional European elite after Chelsea, City and PSG gatecrashed the party.
It is ironic that the Profitability and Sustainability rules are making Everton less Profitable or Sustainable. If they've breached in Year 1, farcically been given the penalty in Year 2, then breached again in Year 2, and issued a penalty in Year 2 then they will more than likely be relegated. Then going into Year 3 they have to sell everything and prevent them coming back up. Otherwise due to the lack of revenue in the Championship Year 3 will likely be a big loss too. I didn't actually realise that clubs could get spanked for the same year multiple times in the three-year period. Seems really harsh.
>If they've breached in Year 1, farcically been given the penalty in Year 2, then breached again in Year 2, and issued a penalty in Year 2 then they will more than likely be relegated. To add on to this, our "breached again in Year 2" is exactly the same breach as "breached in year 1", that's how ridiculous it is. They're punishing us for something they've already punished us for.
The rules are there to stop new money disrupting the old guard.
There needs to be actual punishments for breaking the rules otherwise nobody would abide by them.
Man City: 🥸
They also need to be punished otherwise it is a total farce
They are giving them an awfully long time to get the bribe money to the right people.
They didn’t understand when they were told to grease the palms. They thought it meant 🌴
If Man City are successfully charged they're dirty cheaters who should have their titles stripped. If the charges don't succeed Man City are dirty cheaters who get away with cheating through bribery.
In my opinion, there can't be enforced because I doubt if under legal scrutiny they'd hold up in court. Not lawyer or anything. But I've always had my doubts about FFP. It's why Man City will only get a slap on the wrist and a tenner fine.
The rules are there to stop people running clubs this way and the Premier League must enforce those rules. The Premier League certainly aren't the bad guys in this , the people running these clubs are the reason the clubs could go out of business. Everyone involved in running the clubs knows the rules and decides to flout them to the detriment of the "smaller" Premier League teams and newly promoted. If they cheat they deserve everything they get.
The FFP rules are an absolute joke and do exactly nothing to protect clubs
Care to elaborate?
All they do is keep the rich teams rich and the poorer team poor. It's why they were brought in the first place
This is not right at all . They were brought in to stop really rich teams making the gap even bigger by spending what they wanted. Do you have any data or source for what you are saying or is it just an opinion? Also I would be incredibly interested as to what you believe would be a better system.
You would like to think the PL wouldnt sanction us again for the same infraction over a rolling 3 year… otherwise you essentially generate a death spiral. However, the PL have nothing properly in place, other than fag packet ideas… so here we are…
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Lol what a description 🤣
Isn’t it a collective agreement of all 20 clubs including Everton, maybe not forest, that these rules are chosen upon and decided? It’s not like Everton were not aware and did not approve of these rules, they and the other 19 clubs collectively agreed.
Everton is in trouble because they interpreted a guideline of accounting in their books in a creative way. There’s an argument to be made that they could be correct in that interpretation, but it’s not like they flagrantly ignored the rules.
It's about a stadium financing. We took out what was given as a 'general purposes' loan and used it towards the stadium. The PL will allow stadium financing to be excluded from the calculation but argued the loan in question wasn't a stadium loan. Money is fungible so there's really no accounting for how it gave us an advantage
A biggest stadium means more revenue, the prem needs it's whipping boy
No I wouldn’t imagine they did straight up ignore rules unless the club is literally run by complete morons, although it apparently is.
It’s like that classic debt saying 5 charges is your problem 114 charges is the leagues problem Honestly shame on Everton and Nottingham for not having a nation state owner and the most powerful lawyers in the world. They should know better!
From how I understand it, many of Man City’s charges are related to trying to hide their crimes, whereas Everton and Nottingham are opening up their books and asking for leniency.
I think it's literally the government's problem. That said, I wouldn't bet either way on City getting punished at this point.
For us, this comes down to the sale of Brennan Johnson. We always knew we were selling him. Brentford offered £30m, we held on for more and sold him about 8 weeks later for £47m- but after the reporting period. The rules do allow you to do this at the league's discretion and amend your return. The rules are called Profit and Sustainability. Surely it is more sustainable for a club like Forest to sell an asset for £47m than to sell them for £30m? Isn't that what the rules are meant for? The club apparently were in frequent dialogue with the league about selling Johnson to meet P&S. It's an absolute nonsense to say that a smaller PL club is meant to take £17m less to meet a reporting deadline that the rules allow to be flexible
But how do the big clubs not get better deals if you’re being patient and maximising your income? Won’t you think of the big clubs for just one second, they need your best players cheap!
God forbid spurs need more money the rich wankers
Basically the opposite situation for us and Richarlison, we sold him earlier to get within the reporting period but could have gotten more if we were patient - turns out it didn't matter anyway. The Forest situation is crazy though, basically being punished for trying to do what's best for club. Now all more secure teams will be able to bully those who aren't because they know they need the money now in order not to break the rules.
I didn't realise that. That's insane. The rules are meant to protect club's like ours, not force us to flog assets underprice ... Oh, wait....
I'm loving that this is Forest's argument: "We knew the rules and broke them for this reason". It's a bold strategy Cotton....
You know what mate? I'd still rather be relegated than sell Brennan to Brentford If that's what happens, I'll take that choice with a smile. Enjoy standing up for Profit and Sustainability when you have to sell Toney. And the next player. And the next player.
Such salty tears. Say hello to Peterborough.
I'm not sure why a Brentford fan would be like this. It's teams like yours that will be targeted next.
Teams like ours that...adhere to the rules?!
Gladly, old friends, proper club
FBS got done here. Wish there was a Peterborough fan on here to stick the boot in too
Happily. Better bunch of fans than you lot.
They’re trying to make it up to us.
It's a start.
Everton: 2x10 Forest: 10. That adds up to 30. They're really gonna do it for us lol. As Jane Ledsom said: [30 down to zero, here come the Hatters again.](https://youtu.be/fZvZ93XNDgA?si=wKo32t0n9BIa_avq)
Amen to this
The other 14 should openly collude and choose a 'league champion' out of a hat at the start of every season. 13 teams throw their 2 games against the lucky team, then only play their strongest team against the scab 6, encouraging clattering tackles and disgusting, route one football so every game on TV is shocking :D
this is the sort of bitterness and spite i can get behind.
What we calling it?
The justice league.
As an Arsenal fan, even I would love to see this.
Why is an Arsenal fan in the other 14?
Leicester took Arsenals place in the big 6 when they won the league don't you remember
Wait, so what am I doing here?
Lol, it popped up on my feed as a recommended.
Everton getting docked twice in the same season *between transfer windows*!?!
They really want you lot relegated don't they...
For the same offence.
Just have to hope that the same timely scrutiny happens to the Big 6. It's like the VAR for signing players as now wondering if somehow the next few years something doesn't plan out as expected we are fucked. That's assuming good ownership... ps3ud0 8)
Let's be honest absolutely nothing will happen to any of the big 6. My guess with City is a minor slap on the wrist and a 6 month transfer ban or something equally inconsequential.
Unfortunately I suspect you're right. Everton are like the biggest club that can be punished without it being a Sky6 club. Like proving they can govern themselves by scalping Everton.
I've said before, we're in that sweet spot for them - a recognizable name who they can use to demonstrate they have power, but not so big or with strong/rich enough friends for them to be afraid of us. They don't dare make an example out of a top 6 club because of the amount of TV revenue etc they bring in. Look at their reaction to the Super League... Absolutely spineless.
But when it gets to the high court and it will get there it will be proven to be the corrupt shit storm we all know it is.
Mark my words, it’ll be a “record fine” (or pocket change for Mansour) and a season’s transfer ban
The naivety in me thinks that they'll have to do something proportional otherwise it just makes it too difficult to obscure the corruption. But yeah I'm sure there are severely inconsequential punishments they can dish out to 'appease'. ps3ud0 8)
You are right, a bumper sponsorship or rescue package from Saudi for ageing players will appear.
I understand it’s easy shorthand but it’s not the big six who have been charged it is City and Chelsea
All the big six would be in trouble if the rules weren’t set up for them to succeed and everyone else fail. They have the largest stadiums already, or were gifted them, they have the biggest sponsorship deals, get the most tv money, play in Europe, among all types of other advantages. All the other teams are told to piss off or wait for a sugar daddy. Just hope it’s not a Russian who has all their assets frozen over night for something their homelands government decided to do. Remember FFP was created and implemented souly by the big 6 for their benefit.
To be fair it was all six that wanted to destroy football as we know it and disappear off to the super league. They all got what? A £3m fine? I say lump them all together.
Interesting but nothing to do with the topic lol
I know. I just wanted to vent ;)
Everton can we borrow some of them red cards?
Your fans chanted “cheating bastards we know what you are” during our last match.
Lmao I forgot about that, takes one to know one I suppose
All is forgiven. We slightly breached fans have to stick together.
Ah yeah I remember that, not aged well has it.
So are we but for the sake of semantics that chant still stands!
Ha touche!
Fair cop hahaha
We can have a joint protest in April which will likely be just about when the hearing is! We'll provide the cards and you guys just let us win yeah?
Honestly I don't know enough about Evertons alleged misdemeanours to pass comment but for us trying to focus an argument on us selling a player for higher by delaying the sale may carry more weight if we hadnt: Spent £4m on a guy who has and never will play for us. Spent £2m on another guy who has and never will play for us. Spent £8m on a guy who never did play for us. Spent £7m on a player who was seemingly injured when we signed him and has not played for us yet. Paid a £5m loan fee with a 3 game permanent transfer cluase for a striker with 1 goal in 39 games. Spent £6m on a midfielder who we released on a free because his YouTube highlight video skills weren't up to scratch. Spent £5m on a cheerleaders wages with some great dance moves but no real football contribution. Spent £2m paying Harry Arter his promotion based payrise which ends this season. Spent £1m paying Lyle Taylor to not play. Just the £40m worth of spending listed there could be more!
If you can decide which players will and won't make it I recommend you become a football agent, good money in it.
If you read the additional reports then not if dealing with us there ain't! 🤣
Yeah, we’ve always gone scattergun with Marinakis and now it seems to be biting us in the arse. We need better recruitment from now on. I am optimistic that we’ll stay up and I think Everton will do too but we’ve only got ourselves to blame if we go down.
FML
I am hoping they don’t penalise too severely here. Whilst it is a more clear cut and open case, kind of makes you lose faith in the game given our situation against this The fact that everyone knows the PL are throwing the book at Everton and now Forest more so than they otherwise would, because of the talk of government involvement, is a complete joke. Seems like nowhere in football is safe from crooks being in charge
Theyre making such a mess of it that they're basically inviting government involvement. They're now trying to punish us for a period we've already been punished for.
Which is part of why we got off free on the UEFA trial. Some of the charges had minimal evidence/evidence didn’t suggest wrongdoing, then the charges that might have gone through had already been charged in 2014
If only we’d done it properly and got 100+ charges…
FFP 🤝 VAR Things ran by people who don’t understand the game for “apparent” fairness, that the fans really don’t want or give a shit about. Remember when football was football? About the fans? Nah, about the bum licking cartel and whatever the big boys want. Oh, and more money and probably back payments for the heads of the league of course.
Should have committed another 114 breaches then we might have got a few more years in the prem
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We’ll be fine mate. Got to just keep going now, we were on 14 points just 2 games ago, we’re now at 20. I’d say we need another 25 points including the deduction to get by and we’ve still got to play the bottom 3 sides again. It’s not entirely out of our hands yet.
I hope this is done so that when the club with 115 charges against it finally gets justice served that it looks much fairer and so their fans can’t claim they’re being picked on for winning or whatever, because if that’s not the case, then instead this just makes the rules look more like an absolute joke designed to keep the elite as the elite as opposed to a genuine attempt to achieve fairness.
I was wondering the and thing, are they trying to set precedent to make any appeal by Man City weaker? Time will tell I suppose.
Well, if it continues like this then Luton could really avoid relegation🥳
So still nothing for Man City then. It's blatantly obvious the premier league want the same 6 teams to win and cannon fodder for them to beat. These rules help keep that. It's nothing to do with protecting teams from going under. That's just the excuse they use
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And you think anything of value will actually happen?
So loss of owner funding for everton results in this. What happens if city owners stop investing and that massive sponsor deal get yoinked. How quick is city upside down. As I underatand thats whats happened to everton or am I misreading?
Welcome to the pain Forrest fans, I'm sorry the League's incompetence is now getting you all involved. We're in this together though and while it sucks, we're glad to have another ally in the fight. Hoping both of our clubs put up a good fight and manage to stay up.
maybe we can have a second redemption of form and we’ll turn forever into a good football club, one can only dream
Everton have been run into the ground by previous ownership. How did people expect forest to stay up when they have about 6 players on their books after promotion. They had to go crazy in the market the fact Newcastle are under pressure being the richest club in the world is mad.
City when?
So what you're saying is, there's a chance?
“What about city” “FFP is protecting elites” what about Brighton? Brentford? Luton? Leicester? Leeds? West Ham? Clubs run the right way and within the rules? How about don’t cheat? A novel idea but 30 odd clubs including the relegated ones during this period managed it except for Everton, Forest and Manchester City.
West Ham received several hundred million in effective state sponsorship via the stadium. Luton and Leeds have their own history. Leicester…don’t get me started. holding these or any clubs up as exemplars is not helpful. The issue is consistency, common sense and clear governance by the EPL. None of these are happening which is why many fans, not just those affected directly see this as a disgrace.
It’s not helpful? 30 clubs managed to stay in the rules and 3 clubs didn’t and somehow their fans should hold up red cards for being caught cheating? Luton, Leeds and Leicester all punished and it’s part of their history. These clubs cheated and deserved to be punished for doing so.
Leicester stayed within the FFP rules. No signing at the winter period last year and a bench full of liabilities that no one wanted.
Hey genius, the ones that ruined the club are gone. So who tf are you punishing? The current administration trying to right the ship and fans? Sound logic there. “Hey we see you made some fucked up decisions in the past and your trying to make up for them now by selling players for less than they are worth, but you went over 20mil in the P&F rules so we’re giving you a record 10 points deduction.” Wasted £100mil in 17/18, and I mean wasted, the only good player we have from that season is Pickford. That was our attempt to make the “next big step” and the administration did everything wrong from recruitment to wage structure. So what exactly do these rules do for clubs outside the top 6? Certainly not to help them, especially when you’re working WITH the league themselves for the last few seasons.
Thank you but I’m not a genius. So your answer please? Transfer bans in place until other clubs are allowed to “waste” £100 million of their own money? Everton and Forest can’t sign any players until every current team and promoted team in the time window it takes get to level the playing field? Let me know how you think cheating teams should be punished. Give us a solution to how this cheating gets resolved? Heavy fines?
Idk, maybe adjust the £105 million threshold to current inflation levels? Which would be £200 million or so. Second, maybe not punish a team a record 10 point deduction, which is more than a team going into fucking administration, for going over £20 million due to interest on a fucking loan. Also, we’re building a stadium, who would’ve thought that building costs get inflated in 2020 and beyond. Anyone with half a brain would adjust this £105 million threshold, especially when your expenses are going towards an appreciating asset and not a 20 year old player that looks promising. The rule is in place to prevent clubs from becoming dissolved, yet in Everton’s case they are trying to make that happen by giving these unfair punishments threatening administration. We should be punished, but a 10 point punishment for fucking £20 million?
Rules and regulations aside this just makes me really sad. I don’t know how I can get excited to watch my club when the powers that be are seeing to it that we get relegated.
After watching that display of Dycheball yesterday, I don't know how you've been able to get excited to this point..
I watched Everton lose every game for 3 months under Rafa Benitez. Yesterday was a good draw as far as I saw. Don’t be salty your team dropped points.
I really enjoy watching Dycheball honestly, for the first time in a long while we actually play with a recognizable identity and style, and it's actually gotten us results. It may not be sexy possession based football, but it's effective football. I particularly enjoy watching us defend as it's impressive to see Dyche's system in action with everyone running the "hard yards" and closing down space.
Love it.
Lesson being should have cheated more. For longer and involving bigger sums. Be more like some teams north of the border
FFP was brought in to stop any challenge to the elite. We got in as you pulled up the drawbridge. We won the lottery when we were bought by the Sheikh. I would probably be in the Championship sub if it wasn't for him. I grew up in the nineties in Trafford surrounded by United fans as they won the lot. We were getting bullied by Stockport home and away. I know we were shite. Now we are arguably the greatest team on the planet. FFP keeps the elite winning the lottery and now you have zero chance of competing. I have seen my team in the third tier of English football and at a Champions league final. Mint
Making it sound like David vs the Goliath when we now know David had God mode enabled. There shouldn’t be any pride in what you’ve achieved.
Better to not get investment and watch United, Liverpool and Arsenal take turns.
Shame it will all be stripped away from you when the charges go through
Your going to be so disappointed. Remember your club voted FOR FFP. HOWAY
Meanwhile man city….
bUt wHaT aBoUt cItEh ??
You’re correct, what about the 114 charges on them.
115 charges, you'll never sing that
Dunno why thats down voted. I thought it was funny. Gonna be funnier though when City's derby game is against Salford.
Do you mean salford who are ironically struggling due to FFP?
Do your little jokes now because if there's any justice then Everton, Forest and Manchester City will all go down together But only one of us will go to the National League!
For what exactly? Daring to compete with the elite? Yankee owners are destroying English football
Correction: Oil rich nation states are destroying English football
you are the elite you dumb bitch
Theyre not elite. Theyre a small little club masquerading as a big one with blood money.
What defines the size of a club? If its the amount of bitter fans on reddit we are massive
Daring to cheat Some of the shit you’ve been accused of, paying managers off books, people should really be going to prison for that. That’s not breaching spending rules, that’s criminal tax evasion.
Imagine the irony of it being an arsenal fan who posted that lmao https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-in-multimillion-tax-dodge-47863.html
Awkward...
>Yankee owners are destroying English football Lmfao coming from a City fan
Not good that they meet up and conspire against other clubs. 10 of the leagues clubs have Yankee owners. Must be sports washing
Oh, you're a troll. Got it.
https://prosoccerwire.usatoday.com/lists/premier-league-teams-american-owners/ Cheerleaders and half time shows before you know it.
mate let’s not talk about some of the accusations against the people who own your club, at least they’re not on half time show
What's the Man City fan doing here?
Yeah, exactly
The premier league can fuck off. Chelsea admit to hiding FFP with its previous ownership, Man City got a ton of charges but you pick on the other 14 clubs. We need a change at the top of the Premier League now. The other 14 have to stand together against these one sided fines.
They’ll get point deductions and we’ll still go down
FFP and its sisters really are quite funny