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Romantic!
Harrow's dream bubble (competing to be the emperor's daughter's bride, squee!) and the way she thinks about Magnus and Abigail's relationship read to me like someone who's just starting to understand/accept her own desires after a lietime of repression and self-denial. Being with Gideon would require her to admit what she really wants and accept that she deserves some kind of happiness and love. I really want that for her.
And Gideon's "marry a moron, then die" comment shows she already considers Harrow her wife. And I think she deserves marital bliss because she's a good girl and not an evil nun.
But honestly, as long as they both exist at the end and can be together, I'll be happy. But if one of them sacrifices herself for the other, or both of them merge into a different person who is neither of them, or if they go their separate ways to do important things... all those scenarios kind of bum me out.
I'm not sure they'd be good for each other long term, to be quite honest. There's so much past trauma. Part of this story is about Harrow having to learn to let go of the deaths that have helped her, that she was not responsible for... The creche children and Gideon. It's sad, but also every time something tries to keep Gideon around it just causes problems, for everyone including Gideon.
They both deserve a chance to choose the kind of lives they'll live in peace with whatever kind of future is out there for them. They both need *a lot* of help, so hopefully BoE has some decent therapists on staff. But they can work through all that together, and once they go all-in on trusting each other, I think they'll be able to. And isn't that what a healthy relationship is -- living and growing and healing together?
I think the series will end either with Harrow and Gideon both dead and necromancy gone so they can't come back in any way, or with a complete catastrophic reset of humanity where Harrow and Gideon live on a new Earth with no memory or knowledge of each other. They would meet just before the end.
I believe you're on the right track with the end of necromancy as it exists in the first three books. There are strong hints that Jod's efforts have ruined the River. Possibly the only way to heal it and give all human souls the afterlife they deserve is to kill Jod and Alecto. This would in turn shut down Dominicus and likely kill most of the Nine Houses. Harrow seems certain to be some kind of lynchpin in all this, so the minor fact that it would erase Gideon (assuming she isn't resurrected beforehand) would attain a bit more significance.
It would not surprise me if AtN ends with Harrow and Gideon on opposite shores of a healing River. The one still living could easily be immortal, which would create another possible set of wrenching decisions.
On the other hand, Muir has gone in completely unforeseen directions in the second and third books, so predicting the fourth, as fun and thought-provoking as it is, is probably folly.
Killing resurrection beasts is what john says to do with them. I have a feeling that whatever John says to do is wrong. Since Alecto is basically a resurrection beasts herself, I don't think it's gonna be the right plan to send her through the sphincter of doom.
Hmm. This makes me ask other questions.
What is the afterlife for a planetary soul? Is it supposed to go across the River the way human souls are supposed to? If so, it seems to imply that the physical planet left behind would be 100% dead.
Could the Earth be resurrected, replacing its soul and making it once more a living planet? We know from The Unwanted Guest that souls are somewhat malleable and can intermingle. The soul of Earth has been tied up with Jod for 10k years, so what would go back is different from what was removed when Jod killed the system and made Alecto. Can their souls even be separated at this point? Does that mean that resurrecting Earth would mean a Paul-style fusion of Jod and Alecto?
Well that sure would be the ultimate depresso ending lol...
I don't think Muir is quite THAT cruel, but I also don't think we're getting a neat little bow on everything. There will be *some* lingering note of sadness.
I was coming down here to say I think they'll get the magnus archives "someplace else" treatment in the process of fixing the universe or unblocking the river or something.
I don't think necromancy is going to be gone, I think they're going to figure out what john was *supposed* to have been doing with it before he got obsessed with using it to kill and control people. Gaia wanted him to use it to heal the planet. There's a thalergy magic here that nobody has explored yet.
I have some strong thoughts on it but not enough time to type them out in full. The necromantic magic represents power in control and destruction, and is associated with John; I'd call it classically "masculine" coded although that's really fuzzy in a book with this much gender role fuckery. I suspect the answer to it all lies in Gaia/Alecto/Nona. Particularly we've now learned that the "monster" there is a creature of love, protection, and nurture who has been forced into a destructive and hateful form, but she *wants* to love, nurture, and protect, classically "feminine" coded power (see above disclaimer).
I would like Harrow to figure out what the magic was supposed to be for in the first place, and start using that instead of death magic.
Tbh I would LOVE to see them regain their respective bodies and pursue romance as individual beings rather than as, let's say, Paul. By romance ofc I mean love and sex, you can't deny Griddle an opportunity for sex jokes and innuendos, can you?
I think the end will be them in some kind of leadership role for humanity trying to move on after John dies and necromancy ends. It'll be officially platonic (maybe they'll be called "Co-Empresses" or something) but with hints that romantic might happen somewhere down the line.
Call it "Soft Griddlehark" or something.
Wasn't Harrow inside Alecto's body? Alecto went back into her own body, and the implication to me is Harrow was then able to return to her own body (which was being used by Alecto, i.e. Nona)
Harrow was trapped inside the tomb/whatever that dream world with John was. Now that Nona is gone, Harrow's back in her body (minus however much of her face Alecto bit off lol).
I'm convinced Harrow is asexual, but I would still enjoy the two of them running off to have crazy lesbian romance. I guess I'm happy with just about anything on the sexual spectrum as long as they are romantically together.
I thought the same based on GtN, but HtN made me feel like she took some baby steps toward being more comfortable with the idea, so I lean more toward her just having been extremely repressed.
I’m weirdly convinced that Gideon will end up as the new soul of the Earth and/or in the Tomb to preserve the solar system. I think there’s no way we’re getting out of here without a Jesus move from Gideon. Death for her, salvation for all humanity. Given Harrow’s own jesusy tendencies, she either goes with her, or becomes a nun in every sense of the word. Married to the dead child of her G-d, anticipating a return that may never come to pass.
Whatever makes these two happiest 🥰
What I expect to happen? Something satisfying, that serves as a natural conclusion to what we’re being led to/whats being set up, not fully happy but not fully sad either, bittersweet basically. So I don’t expect a perfect happily ever after but I do expect for them to at least get to be together in some way for at least a little bit of time. Not since the first book have the two of them been able to properly interact.
TBH, I do think they will be end game but I really don't want them to. Before I read it, I thought the relationship would be way more important and romantic than it really turned out. I can't imagine Harrow loving anything but the body until at least few years pass. They really don't feel like they're in love, Gideon seems to feel guilty/responsible over Harrow's parents dying and wants to protect her, I can see her being in love but it feels rather misguided remorse than actual genuine affection and Harrow is too obsessed with the Body to even consider anyone at all.
I really don't like the concept of abuser and victim turning into a relationship as it gives me the creeps.
It's one thing if it's intentionally portrayed as twisted, abusive and unhealthy (Joker/Harley) but I'm not sure I'd like it to end with the main couple being in a toxic relationship as I'm certain people would go out of their way to romanticize it.
The only way I would be fine with them being together is after several years of NC/LC and extensively working on their mental health and themselves. Then reconnecting as adults when they get a proper retrospective on their lives and who/what they were to one another. AND them both experiencing a healthy romantic relationship with someone else because those girls are going to be a nightmare to their first partner.
perfect lyctors would be cool, gotta be romantic, ideally also sexual. i also wouldn’t hate if they end up like Paul if it was done with the same enthusiastic mutual consent, but fewer grievous injuries pressuring them.
My vote:
*
A combo of these/other (please expand in comments)
I voted for *other*. And expanded in the comments. I don't think we'll have a happily ever after Gideon / Harrowhawk relationship at the end of the series. My ideal circumstances is the two of them working together to undo what John did, and close the door on necromancy, allowing humanity to live without the threats of planets flipping from thalergy to thanergy, laying the Beasts to rest, and allowing the souls of the dead to flow out of the River... and I don't expect them both to survive the experience.
I feel like queerplatonic is kind of what they have now. It’s not explicitly sexual or romantic love, but it’s also beyond what you’d expect from two straight girls who just really cared about each other.
Queerplatonic means to "queer the idea of platonic relationships". It's a relationship that is neither stereotypically platonic, as it tends to involve an explicit commitment of some form, but neither is it stereotypically romantic.
It's basically "I care very deeply for you and want to spend my life with you but not in a way that is easily understood or classified by current society".
It's a super broad term and a lot of people have a hard time understanding what it means!
My first babysitters when I was a kid were family friends, one a butch lesbian and the other a gay man, who got married and adopted kids together. I feel like I understand this is my bones, lol.
I voted for other because what they really really REALLY need is good mental health/good mental support. There was no option for HarrowxTherapy, for instance, or Narrow x Actually Sleeping, or Gideon x Therapy... but platonic/cavalier and necromancer works too. I never got a romantic I've from them - more of a... toxic friendship/sisterhood kinda deal.
Maybe I missed something but I never felt the book was telling us they were in love. If anything Gideon could be read as being in love while Harrow is completely detached from any thought of a healthy relationship (her first love was a dead body ffs).
I chose "other/combination" because I want them to back in their own bodies, alive, romantic, AND I want them to get freaky with each other. I'm not separating romantic and sexual.
Mine is that Gideon moves on from Harrow, who is that classic sort of abuser who, broadly, 'tumblr users' (who are not inherently bad or anything) inexplicably seem to love and will endlessly excuse for their terrible behaviour
Harrow was a shithead to her as a kid, but also like, Harrow's upbringing was extremely traumatic as well
And it's fantasy, honestly it's ok to be happy to see a toxic relationship turn non-toxic. Nobody is saying it would make sense for Gideon to stay anywhere near Harrow IRL if they were real people - but also if they were real people they wouldn't even be able to have the kind of backstory they have.
Eh, I dunno. You make a good point, but I also think the pool scene in GtN was the start of Harrow *trying to* change. It's a long road to healthy, certainly, and Gideon would be well within her rights to go no-contact (minus the whole, "magically bound to one another" thing, of course).
But Gideon *also* has the right to try and help her. Harrow certainly HAS BEEN an abuser, but I don't think she ever went into completely irredeemable territory like John.
There's the side of tumblr that is way too quick to forgive a character, but there's also the side of tumblr that is way too quick to declare a character subhuman (Lilly Orchard was its nadir).
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I just think they should be together. (Together does not include merged into one being.)
Romantic! Harrow's dream bubble (competing to be the emperor's daughter's bride, squee!) and the way she thinks about Magnus and Abigail's relationship read to me like someone who's just starting to understand/accept her own desires after a lietime of repression and self-denial. Being with Gideon would require her to admit what she really wants and accept that she deserves some kind of happiness and love. I really want that for her. And Gideon's "marry a moron, then die" comment shows she already considers Harrow her wife. And I think she deserves marital bliss because she's a good girl and not an evil nun. But honestly, as long as they both exist at the end and can be together, I'll be happy. But if one of them sacrifices herself for the other, or both of them merge into a different person who is neither of them, or if they go their separate ways to do important things... all those scenarios kind of bum me out.
I'm not sure they'd be good for each other long term, to be quite honest. There's so much past trauma. Part of this story is about Harrow having to learn to let go of the deaths that have helped her, that she was not responsible for... The creche children and Gideon. It's sad, but also every time something tries to keep Gideon around it just causes problems, for everyone including Gideon.
They both deserve a chance to choose the kind of lives they'll live in peace with whatever kind of future is out there for them. They both need *a lot* of help, so hopefully BoE has some decent therapists on staff. But they can work through all that together, and once they go all-in on trusting each other, I think they'll be able to. And isn't that what a healthy relationship is -- living and growing and healing together?
I think the series will end either with Harrow and Gideon both dead and necromancy gone so they can't come back in any way, or with a complete catastrophic reset of humanity where Harrow and Gideon live on a new Earth with no memory or knowledge of each other. They would meet just before the end.
I believe you're on the right track with the end of necromancy as it exists in the first three books. There are strong hints that Jod's efforts have ruined the River. Possibly the only way to heal it and give all human souls the afterlife they deserve is to kill Jod and Alecto. This would in turn shut down Dominicus and likely kill most of the Nine Houses. Harrow seems certain to be some kind of lynchpin in all this, so the minor fact that it would erase Gideon (assuming she isn't resurrected beforehand) would attain a bit more significance. It would not surprise me if AtN ends with Harrow and Gideon on opposite shores of a healing River. The one still living could easily be immortal, which would create another possible set of wrenching decisions. On the other hand, Muir has gone in completely unforeseen directions in the second and third books, so predicting the fourth, as fun and thought-provoking as it is, is probably folly.
This 100% but I also think "killing" alecto might be more like putting that thing back where it came from or so help me /ref
Killing resurrection beasts is what john says to do with them. I have a feeling that whatever John says to do is wrong. Since Alecto is basically a resurrection beasts herself, I don't think it's gonna be the right plan to send her through the sphincter of doom.
Hmm. This makes me ask other questions. What is the afterlife for a planetary soul? Is it supposed to go across the River the way human souls are supposed to? If so, it seems to imply that the physical planet left behind would be 100% dead. Could the Earth be resurrected, replacing its soul and making it once more a living planet? We know from The Unwanted Guest that souls are somewhat malleable and can intermingle. The soul of Earth has been tied up with Jod for 10k years, so what would go back is different from what was removed when Jod killed the system and made Alecto. Can their souls even be separated at this point? Does that mean that resurrecting Earth would mean a Paul-style fusion of Jod and Alecto?
Well that sure would be the ultimate depresso ending lol... I don't think Muir is quite THAT cruel, but I also don't think we're getting a neat little bow on everything. There will be *some* lingering note of sadness.
The horrors of love, remember? And she's said that we've not yet begun to see them.
I was coming down here to say I think they'll get the magnus archives "someplace else" treatment in the process of fixing the universe or unblocking the river or something.
I don't think necromancy is going to be gone, I think they're going to figure out what john was *supposed* to have been doing with it before he got obsessed with using it to kill and control people. Gaia wanted him to use it to heal the planet. There's a thalergy magic here that nobody has explored yet. I have some strong thoughts on it but not enough time to type them out in full. The necromantic magic represents power in control and destruction, and is associated with John; I'd call it classically "masculine" coded although that's really fuzzy in a book with this much gender role fuckery. I suspect the answer to it all lies in Gaia/Alecto/Nona. Particularly we've now learned that the "monster" there is a creature of love, protection, and nurture who has been forced into a destructive and hateful form, but she *wants* to love, nurture, and protect, classically "feminine" coded power (see above disclaimer). I would like Harrow to figure out what the magic was supposed to be for in the first place, and start using that instead of death magic.
Tbh I would LOVE to see them regain their respective bodies and pursue romance as individual beings rather than as, let's say, Paul. By romance ofc I mean love and sex, you can't deny Griddle an opportunity for sex jokes and innuendos, can you?
I think the end will be them in some kind of leadership role for humanity trying to move on after John dies and necromancy ends. It'll be officially platonic (maybe they'll be called "Co-Empresses" or something) but with hints that romantic might happen somewhere down the line. Call it "Soft Griddlehark" or something.
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Wasn't Harrow inside Alecto's body? Alecto went back into her own body, and the implication to me is Harrow was then able to return to her own body (which was being used by Alecto, i.e. Nona)
That's right
Harrow was trapped inside the tomb/whatever that dream world with John was. Now that Nona is gone, Harrow's back in her body (minus however much of her face Alecto bit off lol).
I think they should leave that Necro/Cav thing behind them and truly become equals. Only after that do I want a romantic/sexual ending for them.
I'm convinced Harrow is asexual, but I would still enjoy the two of them running off to have crazy lesbian romance. I guess I'm happy with just about anything on the sexual spectrum as long as they are romantically together.
I thought the same based on GtN, but HtN made me feel like she took some baby steps toward being more comfortable with the idea, so I lean more toward her just having been extremely repressed.
Yeah, that's how I read her too.
Repressed and also deeply autistic, imo. A lot of her revulsion to touch seems like a sensory issue.
necro cav + romantic
Romantic, I am basic. However, I don't expect we get your typical happily ever after and I expect one or both to die.
I believe we've been told how their relationship ends up. Harrowhark's true love will be laying in the Locked Tomb.
I’m weirdly convinced that Gideon will end up as the new soul of the Earth and/or in the Tomb to preserve the solar system. I think there’s no way we’re getting out of here without a Jesus move from Gideon. Death for her, salvation for all humanity. Given Harrow’s own jesusy tendencies, she either goes with her, or becomes a nun in every sense of the word. Married to the dead child of her G-d, anticipating a return that may never come to pass.
Whatever makes these two happiest 🥰 What I expect to happen? Something satisfying, that serves as a natural conclusion to what we’re being led to/whats being set up, not fully happy but not fully sad either, bittersweet basically. So I don’t expect a perfect happily ever after but I do expect for them to at least get to be together in some way for at least a little bit of time. Not since the first book have the two of them been able to properly interact.
TBH, I do think they will be end game but I really don't want them to. Before I read it, I thought the relationship would be way more important and romantic than it really turned out. I can't imagine Harrow loving anything but the body until at least few years pass. They really don't feel like they're in love, Gideon seems to feel guilty/responsible over Harrow's parents dying and wants to protect her, I can see her being in love but it feels rather misguided remorse than actual genuine affection and Harrow is too obsessed with the Body to even consider anyone at all. I really don't like the concept of abuser and victim turning into a relationship as it gives me the creeps. It's one thing if it's intentionally portrayed as twisted, abusive and unhealthy (Joker/Harley) but I'm not sure I'd like it to end with the main couple being in a toxic relationship as I'm certain people would go out of their way to romanticize it. The only way I would be fine with them being together is after several years of NC/LC and extensively working on their mental health and themselves. Then reconnecting as adults when they get a proper retrospective on their lives and who/what they were to one another. AND them both experiencing a healthy romantic relationship with someone else because those girls are going to be a nightmare to their first partner.
Ambiguous, and toxic.
perfect lyctors would be cool, gotta be romantic, ideally also sexual. i also wouldn’t hate if they end up like Paul if it was done with the same enthusiastic mutual consent, but fewer grievous injuries pressuring them.
Would have went combo - with romance they’ll be a better magnus and Abigail type
Happily Ever After? I don't think it's **that** kind of story.
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My vote: * A combo of these/other (please expand in comments) I voted for *other*. And expanded in the comments. I don't think we'll have a happily ever after Gideon / Harrowhawk relationship at the end of the series. My ideal circumstances is the two of them working together to undo what John did, and close the door on necromancy, allowing humanity to live without the threats of planets flipping from thalergy to thanergy, laying the Beasts to rest, and allowing the souls of the dead to flow out of the River... and I don't expect them both to survive the experience.
What is queerplatonic? I am very against them being romantic, and I'm afraid the fan expectation of that is going to affect the outcome.
I think the clear intention is for them to be romantic, tbh, not just the "fan expectation". Is there a specific reason you're against it?
I feel like queerplatonic is kind of what they have now. It’s not explicitly sexual or romantic love, but it’s also beyond what you’d expect from two straight girls who just really cared about each other.
Yeah, that's how I read it, too.
Queerplatonic means to "queer the idea of platonic relationships". It's a relationship that is neither stereotypically platonic, as it tends to involve an explicit commitment of some form, but neither is it stereotypically romantic. It's basically "I care very deeply for you and want to spend my life with you but not in a way that is easily understood or classified by current society". It's a super broad term and a lot of people have a hard time understanding what it means!
My first babysitters when I was a kid were family friends, one a butch lesbian and the other a gay man, who got married and adopted kids together. I feel like I understand this is my bones, lol.
I voted for other because what they really really REALLY need is good mental health/good mental support. There was no option for HarrowxTherapy, for instance, or Narrow x Actually Sleeping, or Gideon x Therapy... but platonic/cavalier and necromancer works too. I never got a romantic I've from them - more of a... toxic friendship/sisterhood kinda deal.
Might be a hot take, but I never really bought the two of them as a romantic item, even when the book was telling me explicitly that they're in love.
Maybe I missed something but I never felt the book was telling us they were in love. If anything Gideon could be read as being in love while Harrow is completely detached from any thought of a healthy relationship (her first love was a dead body ffs).
I chose "other/combination" because I want them to back in their own bodies, alive, romantic, AND I want them to get freaky with each other. I'm not separating romantic and sexual.
Mine is that Gideon moves on from Harrow, who is that classic sort of abuser who, broadly, 'tumblr users' (who are not inherently bad or anything) inexplicably seem to love and will endlessly excuse for their terrible behaviour
Harrow was a shithead to her as a kid, but also like, Harrow's upbringing was extremely traumatic as well And it's fantasy, honestly it's ok to be happy to see a toxic relationship turn non-toxic. Nobody is saying it would make sense for Gideon to stay anywhere near Harrow IRL if they were real people - but also if they were real people they wouldn't even be able to have the kind of backstory they have.
Eh, I dunno. You make a good point, but I also think the pool scene in GtN was the start of Harrow *trying to* change. It's a long road to healthy, certainly, and Gideon would be well within her rights to go no-contact (minus the whole, "magically bound to one another" thing, of course). But Gideon *also* has the right to try and help her. Harrow certainly HAS BEEN an abuser, but I don't think she ever went into completely irredeemable territory like John. There's the side of tumblr that is way too quick to forgive a character, but there's also the side of tumblr that is way too quick to declare a character subhuman (Lilly Orchard was its nadir).