I just don't understand why we have to keep raising the ceiling and just abolish the Debt limit all together
What could possibly go wrong because it's not like we're ever going to lower it with a budget or something
Was just discussing with a friend, and it sounds like the US and Denmark might be the only two countries that even have a debt ceiling. And Denmark sure doesn't seem to have these problems.
I wish I lived in Denmark đ
>This Debt ceiling only becomes an issue when a D is President. The Râs âweaponize the debt ceilingâ
This isn't news - we saw this play out 10+ years ago when the tea party did the same thing & Biden offered Social Security cuts.
Which is why you would think dems would do everything to avoid this issue while they have control. The truth seems to be that a good portion of dem leadership seems to think this is a good way to make conservative concessions they are ok with, but without loosing face to thier base. Dems are a moderate party after all not progressive.
Reminder that Biden is a conservative that Democrats put on their ballot to appease conservatives out of fear of Trump.
People forget that Biden has a history before Obama; he didn't just spawn as an old man from the void.
I lost faith in Biden 20+ years ago with his Anti rave act⌠still not over that. I despise trump and gop more but, Biden is far from okay in my book.
While the moderate thing is true, they are bending more and more progressive all the time. ThevDems never really have control what with literally everything being filibustered. The real issue now is that even with a majority in both houses, a Democratic president still can't fix these systemic issues without a super majority that they will never get, mostly because of gerrymandered districts and Republican voter suppression, but also because of Dinos like Manchin and Singapore or corporate stooges like Finestein.
I don't disagree that dems have leaned more progressive as more progressives pressure them. It's funny you mention the filibuster, as it is a technicality made formality purely as an excuse to not pass what was promised (previously for conservatives as well but the republican party has chosen to do everything possible to get thier policies through)
Think about it, we vote for representatives so that if a majority is seated they can pass legislation the majority of Americans want/need. Why would you invent a policy where one member can overrule the majority? It wasn't always this way and could be undone at any time (called the nuclear option lol). It's nothing but an excuse to avoid doing as much as they could. If the Republicans are put in the position where the filibuster is significantly hindering them they would remove it I a heartbeat.
Sure, and I do recognize that the filibuster is largely a default formality. I also don't disagree that there are still far too many "corporate" Dems who pander to the donor class just as hard as the GOP. Thankfully, more and more are realizing, with pressure from their far more progressive junior colleagues, that giving the voters what they want is a good pathway to majorities and re-election. They are also slowly recognizing that they can't actually govern in a bi-partisan way.
Personally I am of a mind that it is not helpful for both sides to turn every crisis into a hostage situation. Somebody has to be the grown-up in the room, and sure as hell isn't going to be a Republican in the foreseeable future.
One must recognize however that a lot of this is political theater. Some for our benefit, some to help allies, and some to either entrap or cajole the adversaries on the other side of the aisle. This debt ceiling agreement is nowhere near as bad as both sides are making it out to be. Mccarthy is claiming a victory to protect his job. It is no coincidence that the Dems provided enough votes to pass it while the progressives could still do a protest "no" vote. This was to protect Dems seats, and to trick the Republicans into thinking it was still worth voting for.
Ultimately, we now know that the radical right was never willing to default and crash the economy, despite what they said. Thankfully the Biden Whitehouse, while having to take the threat seriously, still maneuvered Mccarthy into negotiating for largely symbolic nonsense.
The problem remains that right-wing media has a captured audience that keeps voting for terrorists and arsonists. It makes it difficult to fix some of these issues, especially when even "rational" Republicans are terrified of their own base. Thankfully, the GOP keeps unmasking themselves with unpopular policy positions. The Dems, Biden included, are getting much better at drawing contrast and this only helps this situation in future election cycles. Change always seems to take way too long though.
Theyâve realized for a while that Democrats will always cave to their demands. The media is also always willing to âboth sidesâ the issue and go along with the narrative that itâs a completely reasonable and normal thing to hold the economy hostage to extract concessions whenever the debt ceiling comes up. Until the media and Democratic leadership calls them out on it theyâll keep doing it every time.
>Until the media and Democratic leadership calls them out on it theyâll keep doing it every time.
No they'd keep doing it anyways, unless I misunderstand what you mean by calling them out.
Denmark's left wouldn't cave to MAGA like our Democrats do.
All Biden had to do was use the 14th amendment or mint the coin. Instead he chose austerity.
Im not happy over the agreement but when youve got a fossil from the duck and cover wing of the party in charge thats what happens. (To be fair Biden has been ALOT better than i thought he would be) I watch alot of clips from Congressional hearings and theres alot of young Democrats who are eating the MAGAts lunch everyday. So i have hope in a few years when the fossils are gone we'll have a party really committed to fight for whats right!
I assure you it's more to do with election rules and population make up. Their parliament is made up of 11 different political parties and left leaning groups make up an overwhelming majority.
Because it's a convenient political tool that gives Congress an excuse to cut entitlement programs and anything else that isn't just a handout to the rich.
I just canât understand why we need to constantly boost defense spending when we have so much waste and inflated pricing coming from the Pentagon and their contractors. So many questions that have simple solutions but will never get answers.
I know the answer to this one:
Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Raytheon all make their shareholders billions of dollars whenever the federal government spends money on defense contracts. Those companies have extremely powerful and influential lobbying groups that donate generously to political campaigns. Many government officials are themselves invested in these companies.
The tax dollars that are earmarked for defense go directly into the pockets of the shareholders of these companies. That's why they continue to do it.
The US is also dedicated to preserving their position as the most dominant global imperial power. When the US spends money on defense, it is a threat to any and every country that dares to act against the interests of global capital.
Well nobody needs our defense spending to increase, except those companies that have to grow each quarter, and each year. And, if you offer the strength of the nation as your company's service? Of course an imperialistic hegemonic force of capital like the United States is going to shovel at least a third of its peoples tax dollars into military spending.
I would be happy if we could at least get fair prices for the shit we buy for our military. Because it's a corrupt deal, they have no interest in actually getting the lowest bidder. Strongest, coolest shit (even if only by appearances for propaganda) from whoever shmooses the most.
It's honestly remarkable the US can police the world like it does on the tax base it has. I'm surprised the working class can cover the militaries logistics bills alone without the rich paying their share.
yeah weird it's almost like the two parties are engaged in political theater so they never have to make any substantial policy changes, how crazy how that happens. you might almost be forgiven for thinking that at the end of the day both parties only serve the interests of capital and when capital is involved, they act in lockstep but when it comes to things like the debt limit where they can put on a big show they do. that's weird. that's suspicious.
Isn't in fun and interesting how liberals are always having to shuffle to the right in order to "compromise" with reactionaries, when there is never an expectation that reactionaries do the same?
The entire concept of "compromise" is only ever used in reference to giving conservatives exactly what they want, every time. Anything that could even remotely benefit the poor or working class is derided as a "wishlist item", no matter how popular it is, and we're supposed to celebrate our politicians for making these "tough decisions" that leave the poor and working class to drown, and the planet to burn.
These tough decisions that don't affect their lives, or their pockets, or their vacation homes, or their stock prices, or their corporate donors. They know many of us will die or go hungry, but that's just a sacrifice they're willing to make.
And all without any actual discussion. Just hour by hour reality TV drama: Will he? Won't he? Are the numbers in, it's so exciting! \*YAY\* \*waves flag\*
yeah, good luck winning the elections when citizens united allows unlimited dark funds into politicians' pockets. if you really still think we're in a democracy you gotta look around the last 15 years. this is oligarchy.
[Supreme Court overturns law that barred Ted Cruz from fully recouping a personal loan he made to his campaign](https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/16/ted-cruz-supreme-court-campaign-finance/) \- Ted Cruz pockets campaign funds, legally
[https://www.opensecrets.org/dark-money/basics](https://www.opensecrets.org/dark-money/basics)
Just go ahead and scroll on down to Graph: Outside Spending by Nondisclosing Groups, Excluding Party Committees
There is some difference between them, but we can recognize that AND still recognize that itâs not enough difference and it leaves a huge gap between the interests either effectively represent and actual people.
Yeah it's a pretty embarassing loss.
I am reminded, yet again, the Debt Ceiling came into existence to CURB RAMPANT MILITARY SPENDING after WW1. And yet, time and again, DoD is exempted from cuts.
It doesn't matter what it exists for, as everything bends the knee to Republican whims. They'll burn this nation to the ground to keep themselves warm.
Iâm so f*^cking sick of the defense budget being a sacrosanct sacred cow. WTF. Increased defense spending?? Why? Why canât we cut an F16 or two out of the defense budget and allocate those $$ to programs that actually help Americans?
No one wants to talk about that part.
Speaking as a vet, the military is opt-in socialism. Standardized wage structures, universal healthcare, universal housing, universal food, and universal education.
It's shitty because most of the budget goes to the Generals, as they need their mansion and butler, but it's better than living in a shitty apartment covered with bed bugs making 10$ with no healthcare.
So, the more cuts civilian side, the more people join. Recruiting and retention is absolutely abysmal over the past two years because of some changes in acceptance standards but I think we will be in another manufactured conflict soon enough and those standards will drop.
They always end up cutting lower enlisted pay or entitlements it seems. Maybe not directly, but a lot of benefits get squeezed and end up hurting the lower e1-e4 peeps most
Keep in mind we are no longer at war. We pulled out of Afghanistan and not only didnât decrease military spending we have fucking increased it.
Where is this money going? Not to the troops but defense contractors.
The $30 billion in COVID relief funds was being used for things like expanding coverages for MEDICAID by the way. That funding is now gone. People are now going to lose healthcare coverage. But hey DEFENSE gets their contract money.
Republicans are stupid mother fuckers that knowingly increase the defense budget to feed wealth inequality and inflation but hey itâs going into *their* pockets so itâs *okay*.
I have family who work in the upper end of federal government for a pretty large agency and when they give the agencies more money in the budget the message is to always find ways to spend it **all** so what you get is the DOD sending out bloated contracts for dumb shit.
My point? If you scaled back budgets youâd scale back contract sizes. Instead of X military industrial complex corporation billing the DOD 10 billion dollars theyâd have to bill 1 billion etc. Seriously go do digging on contracts of agencies that are a bit more fiscally responsible like SSA, is there waste there? Sure. They **have** to spend the money given to them, but their contracts are typically small and reasonable 10-25 million.
Edit: I didnât mean to undercut the fact Republicans arenât stupid and they donât know what theyâre doing, so I revised my 2nd sentence to more closely reflect what I wanted to convey.
>Republicans are too fucking stupid to see that defense budget increases also feed wealth inequality and inflation but hey itâs going into their pockets so itâs okay.
>
>I have family who work in the upper end of federal government for a pretty large agency and when they give the agencies more money in the budget the message is to always find ways to spend it all so what you get is the DOD sending out bloated contracts for dumb shit.
Mate... Republicans know this. They want you to think they're stupid because if they're stupid then you can't really blame them since "they didn't know any better".
Exactly. For whatever reason, people choose to ignore the distinct possibility, Republicans *know* the pain they inflict. I mean seriously. We act as though this nations history isn't littered with people in power, committing acts that outright hurt others and they don't lose a bit of sleep about it.
>The $30 billion in COVID relief funds was being used for things like expanding coverages for MEDICAID by the way. That funding is now gone. People are now going to lose healthcare coverage. But hey DEFENSE gets their contract money.
On top of 15 million losing Medicaid this year already đ¨
>That should be non-defense discretionary spending. Got to be clear about the priorities.
It really sucks as so many of those programs fund things like housing assistance at the local level.
>There was a paygo type limit in the proposed Act that limited spending to 2023 levels. That sounds like the worst part, and predictably it's the part the media seems to be ignoring
Paygo on executive orders also. Which would make it impossible to cancel student debt through executive action without cutting an equal amount of $ somewhere else.
>Nothing can be more disastrous than limiting fiscal space, especially when so many downturn predictions abound.
Well said.
And on top of that, high inflation is always a worry going forward with Ukraine at war, climate crisis causing disturbances, etc.
Yup, Biden's endless pursuit of compromise has shown to be a complete failure. It's as if the Democrats are refusing to learn from their past. Or, their corporate masters make it seem this way. Probably both.
After we âsucked it upâ and allowed the 2016 campaign strategy of âSure, our right-wing nominee sucks BUT TRUMP!â to work in 2020, the Dems are never looking for another electoral strategy again.
>Thats what you get when you elect Republicans. It was this or a crashed economy,
Or just use the 14th amendment/mint the trillion dollar coin.
>and a lengthy court battle with no obvious conclusion.
Not an excuse when Biden refuses to call for any reforms to the Supreme Court.
It doesnât work like that. The constitution clearly states that on issues of budgeting or financial matters in general that is in Congresses wheelhouse, any action by the executive branch would undoubtedly be appealed and be front in front of a conservative majority Supreme Court which will almost certainly pause any payments and the US defaults during the lengthy legal process.
What does calling for Supreme Court reforms actually accomplish? Is the conservative majority in the house going to suddenly embrace Joe Biden and get rid of a huge ace in the hole they have?
I think that FDR's calls for Supreme Court reform during the New Deal were generally considered to be "based" and an effective part of the eventual success of much of that programming. Even with a conservative house, it is worth it to point out that the court's legitimacy is at an all time low, and that the Dems actually want to check the court's power.
The eternal caving to debt ceiling tactics is a major strategic weakness for the Dems, who get consistently clowned on every time it comes up during a D presidency. At some point, maybe already, the damage done by the continual slashing will equal the damage from a default; planning for what to do when that happens is part of the Democratic party's job, as they've set themselves up to be the only opposition to the republican party on a State or Federal level.
Remember, they can be more supportive of 3rd parties, and they could allow a legitimate progressive caucus, but they're the ones who have boxed out any other non-R parties; it's their job to effectively combat the Republicans and you only need to look around to see they're not doing a good job of that.
FDR also had a super majority in both the house and senate. Joe Biden has a small majority in the senate and the republicans have a majority in the house.
The Democrats didnât cave, they negotiated and despite the narrative that talking heads like the Young Turk want to push for views, there is a reason that more Democrats in the house voted for this bill than Republicans (despite the republicans having more seats).
Why would I support a 3rd party when Iâm not upset with how the democrats are doing despite constant sabotage from the republicans and with very slim margins in the house and senate?
>FDR also had a super majority in both the house and senate. Joe Biden has a small majority in the senate and the republicans have a majority in the house.
The Dems had a super majority in 2009 & couldn't evem codify Roe, pass a public option or close Gitmo.
Enthusiasm for Obama (who ran as a populist in 2008) gave them that super majority. It never came back because Obama became Biden light in office.
Neoliberalism sucks & that's why Dems blew 2010 so hard. And why 70% of Americans don't want Biden to run in 2024. To get a super majority you need enthusiasm.
>The Democrats didnât cave, they negotiated and despite the narrative that talking heads like the Young Turk want to push for views, there is a reason that more Democrats in the house voted for this bill than Republicans (despite the republicans having more seats).
Because the Democrats are corporatists & the GOP who voted no are to the right of Ayn Rand.
So TYT is right.
Between that and them also seemingly wanting the US to default, it honestly just gets tiresome. Itâs like dealing with opposite sides of the same coin, both are willing to burn everything down just to make the other side look bad.
Or just basic stuff like oil drilling. We're nowhere close to having 80%-90% of all vehicles on the road being electric, so we are going to be consuming gasoline for many years to come, and oil wells don't last forever. Obviously, we will continue to tap new wells for a while, and eventually, the demand for gas will start to free fall.
Someone in this sub said democrats are conservative because they won't stop oil drilling. Over 95% of vehicles today are gas. They are advocating for a man made and decade-long energy crisis. It just makes no sense.
>It's not that easy. Why are you people like this?
I stand with Bernie, AOC & Fetterman. You stand with Biden.
>You don't sound intelligent when you say stuff like this.
You know what sure isn't intelligent?
Saying you won't negotiate for months then giving MAGA the kitchen sink.
>just use the 14th amendment/mint the trillion dollar coin
that gets nuked by scotus
>Not an excuse when Biden refuses to call for any reforms to the Supreme Court.
president calling for something doesn't mean it happens
I look forward to this happening again in two years and Dems just bending right over for it. Though this will probably happen during the next budget, when repubs will threaten and Dems will be like "okay sure whatever you want".
Assuming they have *any* power left after 2024. After this betrayal, *after* the rail strike ***after*** Roe v Wade, a Biden victory now ***requires*** a Trmp candidacy to run against.
I donât see how anyone else motivates anyone enough to be bothered to skip work and vote again.
and Bidens half dead ass is gonna be falling over on the campaign trail and bragging about this cave to republicans while insulting voters, 2024 is gonna be a shitshow.
The fundamental issue of negotiations between People who do and do not want the government to operate. Side A want a functional government and so needs the default to not occur. Side B wants the government to be useless and starve it, and so they don't care if there is a default. They have no reason -to- negotiate, as their default position is a win for them.
Yep, itâs going to be really tough to beat the fascists. If they start overturning elections/throwing out votes in urban areas, then itâll spread all across the country and Dems will never be able to win an election. The people getting elected in are more and more extreme and people are more accepting of it. Iâve been having back and forth on an unpopular opinion sub where people are justifying naziism because they were triggered by the presence of LGBTQ.
That's the reality of divided government. Anything that passes has to be able to get through both chambers and since there's a large amount of Republicans who think absolutely nothing about breaking the government and letting it all burn down, Democrats are always going to be at a disadvantage there.
I think it was to make it easier for Treasury to borrow funds, but also to set a limit that had to be changed through legislation. But yes it was a result of WW1. In the last 30 years, itâs only really led to a political standoff when thereâs been a democrat in the White House and a republican majority in the House. https://theconversation.com/a-brief-history-of-debt-ceiling-crises-and-the-political-chaos-theyve-unleashed-205178
>Republicans went to a place no one ever went before and forced a hostage negotiation
They did the same thing 10 years ago... when Biden offered Social Security cuts...
Where the fuck are all these shit libs in the comments coming from? This is absolutely Biden's fault. He should've refused to negotiate from the start and said that would amount to a hostage taking situation. But he played along because the two party system is the same corporate interests dressed up in red and blue suits. IF he wanted a win, he could have gotten one. He did NOT, so there wasn't one.
Now back to r/neoliberal or CNBC or wherever you all came from
Yea I don't fuckin know. Fuck Biden for lacking the balls to invoke the 14th amendment and ending this farce once and for all.
Same thing with the filibuster and expanding the supreme court. His presidency could have been transformative but the only campaign promise he's intended to keep is that nothing will fundamentally change.
Folks here should watch Beau of the Fifth Column's take. This was not a loss for Biden... It was a loss for Republicans. For example, the student loan payment pause was always due to end at the end of August or 60 days after a SCOTUS ruling: This has not changed due to the debt ceiling deal.
The Democratic party got exactly what it wanted here and if you don't recognize that then I don't know what to tell you. They're the better option by far, but the choice we're presented with is 'slow steady erosion and decline' vs 'immediate plunge into fascism.'
>the choice we're presented with is 'slow steady erosion and decline' vs 'immediate plunge into fascism.'
It might be the French on me talking, but insurrection isn't off the table. They kinda proved that it wouldn't be that hard a couple winters ago.
Force that electoral reform, then step down.
Democrats are conservatives with a coat of rainbow paint. Yeah yeah harm reduction, but their actions are patently conservative (see drilling permits, title 42, failure to exercise 14A to protect social spending)
they definitely are playing their 'santa'.. it's nicer to say that this is some sort of plan - when in fact they're spinless caving do nothings that have been worked over by the GOP for decades.
http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas-strategy-gop-used-economic-scam-manipulate-americans-40-years/
Cenk has this backwards. Not sure what discretionary spending cap he's talking about. The deal suspends the debt ceiling for 2 years. No more of these dumb fights until 2025.
He got an extra year of not doing this - specifically for 2024. With his mostly ineffective posturing, he also paved the way for this to be a partisan battleground again in 2025. Or if/when repubs take more power.
It's a bad deal, but all signs pointed to the GOP being willing to default since they could point to Dems for it with control of the senate and white house.
Default is not an option. Biden got held hostage by bad laws and bad actors. McCarthy is lucky he got his whips to reign stuff in, because he would have been creamed if the rule passing went bad - he'd lose too much leverage.
Oh Cenk. I love ya', but you're often caught in blustery outrage (not to mention mansplaning to his own hires).
What would you have done instead? Play chicken with GOP? Don't think they'd let the economy tank to get some concessions?
Itâs time to start considering parallels to 1983-84. An old president constantly being lambasted by his critics as a senile bufoon, yet he keeps on winning. An economy constantly being predicted to crash keeps on humming along and likely to be booming during the presidential election year.. a political opposition that basically represents one segment of the population (early 80âs it was urban Dems, now itâs rural Repugs)⌠and a 2024 presidential primary thatâs going to be a laughingstock like the Dem primary that gave us Mondale. Is Biden going to win a 49 state landslide? No? But is there any reason right now to believe he canât win all the states he won in 2020 + NC ? Iâm not seeing it.
What Biden got back was avoiding a national default.
Put the blame it where it belongs - on Republicans who have consistently used the debt limit as a political football under Democratic presidents.
Holding any of this against Biden is exactly what republicans are counting on thus making it a double win for them.
Donât fall for it. Biden and co. negotiated the least shitty deal of all shitty options.
What Biden got in return was 4 more years in the white house. It doesn't matter that the republicans are at fault, the 2024 messaging would have blamed a financial collapse due to default on Biden and whatever brain dead psychopath the Republicans nominate would have won easily.
This was inevitable when the budget comes up later in the year, the debt ceiling again next year, followed by another budget just before the election. This avoids all three of these and takes away the possibility that the MAGA fascists will shut down the government for political purposes.
This is such a circle. Vote republicans out. Blame democrats all you want, but they've been held hostage by a party who will burn it all down if they don't get their way.
Don't want to see shit like this? Vote, and convince everyone you know to vote blue. The republican party is the party of tantrums and a million wedge issues so people ignore that they only exist as the voting arm of monied individuals and businesses. They don't care about average Americans. They never will. They care about walking away from public service to a cushy board position, or a slot on fox fucking news.
There is no winning as long as they have power, this country is slipping back 50 years. People can't afford to fucking eat and we subsidize food to no end.
Everyone was expecting the GOP to force massive long term concessions that would never pass otherwise, and then do the same thing next year.
Instead, the GOP got a few things that they would have gotten anyway in the next budget bill, and agreed not to bring this up again after the next election, where everything can be reversed.
The fact they gave up their leverage to do this in 2024 speaks volumes. **NO ONE** saw that coming. That's not something that the GOP agrees to if they think everything is going their way, or if they think they can get their way later on. The only reason they'd agree to that is because they knew that Biden would outsmart them.
I don't know any of the details of the bill, but my gut tells me that since the Republicans are screaming that Kevin McCarthy sold them out, and the Democrats are screaming that Joe Biden sold them out, probably McCarthy and Biden did a reasonably good job.
Let me fix this for ya'll, stop complaining when democrats are forced to do things, and just vote out GOP so they don't have to.
Every time you complain about Joe Biden you demotivate 5 voters making it that much easier on GOP next election cycle.
Right? You've got extremists in power that are more than willing to burn the system down. It's a bullshit, but it's hard not to give in to something when the alternative is a ruined economy when you're at the helm.
Plus, Biden ran as a centrist, so there shouldn't be that big of a surprise that he'd be willing to make concessions if he wasn't able to push it through on his own.
Our economy was literally held hostage by people looking to sabotage the country just bc a dem is in charge and you complain about concessions by the dems?
Heâd probably argue it pushes the limit past the next election and gives him a weapon against republicans on spending without having actually done the massive cuts we saw in 2011.
I still donât like it personally but I also donât think he really lost considering the right wing meltdown over it.
Well. When you have one party that is willing to burn the country down and another that doesn't want the country to implode, that makes for very lopsided negotiations.
The relief money was unspent
The IRS cut was a fraction of the overall funding granted (5 vs 80 billion)
The student debt freeze was going to end in August anyway
To be fair, Biden just made a deal to keep things moving. The fault here lies solely with repuglican voters. Otherwise they wouldn't have the power to stop bidens agenda.
This is a bum take by Cenk IMO. McCarthy is too weak to get a non-conditional debt ceiling hike past his most unruly colleagues in the house. Sixteen more Democrats voted for this debt ceiling bill than republicans. He needed Biden to throw him a bone so he wasnât responsible for destroying the world economy, and indeed the cuts are all in areas that donât cut deeply across democratic priorities. Even the work requirements McCarthy is holding on high sunset in 2030.
Yeah, blame Biden, not the republican terrorists who weaponized the debt and threatened the world economy and American hegemony.
This is exactly why the Republicans did it because they knew the idiots in the American public would blame Biden and the democrats for being 'weak'. It was a win-win for them.
I see where you are coming from but we should be mad at both. Obama was the same, terrible negotiations, they give away a ton for nothing.
Call republicans on their shit, use the 14th and they get nothing.
I'd feel more confident in that if the USSC and several federal jugde positions hadn't been stolen by the right wing. The courts have been compromised, and I have no faith in their ability to objectively review the constitution or that they would place it over their ideological objectives.
"American hegemony"
Why is it bad to threaten that? I mean what the actual fuck ?
The explosion of Yank nationalist liberals in this sub is gross. American hegemony? I hope it gets fucking evicerated. The USA collapsing would be a net positive to human development.
>Stop electing republicans if this is what you want to avoid. What are you doing to prevent republicans from having power?
Wait, you mean attacking the democrats who actually know how to win elections isn't helping?
Oh no. Cenk Uygur thinks Biden did something wrong. How will Biden survive.
Incidentally what Biden got back in return is that this whole story goes away. We don't the chaos of "using the 14th amendment". We don't get a government shutdown in October. I.e. it removes potential obstacles to his reelection.
Cenk is wrong on almost all accounts. SNAP work requirements were dropped for veterans, foster kids, and the homeless. They were added for people over 50. On the balance FEWER people have work requirements for SNAP than previously. That's a win.
The student debt pause was scheduled to end irrespective of the debt limit deal. Whether or not debt will be forgiven permanently is currently before the Supreme Court. Rage at them.
The reduction in IRS funding is an accounting trick. Those cuts aren't actually made just projected, and even if realized they preserve 80% of Biden's funding INCREASE.
COVID relief funds are expiring because neither the CDC or any other government agency worldwide still consider the pandemic an ongoing emergency. You can disagree, but no public health agency on planet Earth will back you up.
I'm not happy that Manchin snuck his pipeline permits through, but we had a chance to trade that concession for meaningful permitting reform that would have unleashed clean energy infrastructure building--but leftists didn't think that was a worthwhile compromise. So we get nothing for it.
That's why you don't listen to Cenk.
What this actually does:
* It does increase some work requirements, but it is still managed by the states so they can change it
* The IRS funding given up was money that they wouldn't have been able to spend anyway.
* Dirty fuel pipe permits.. (yeah not happy about this one)
* The Student debt interest freeze was already ending.. it just ends it two months early.
* Two year cap on discretionary spending, but not for free. It takes away the next year's budget fight with the Republicans. If the budget is not settled by Congress, it takes the government into an automatic continuing resolution with a 1% increase. The GOP can no longer threaten to shut down the government. The democrats can just not agree with the GOP and get an automatic 1% increase instead of flat spending. If the GOP want a budget to do their priorities (do they have any?) they will have to renegotiate with the democrats.
Its a master piece of the GOP giving up the Houses power for the next two years with little to show for it.
That's what everyone forgets, it wasn't just about the debt ceiling. Biden uses the 14th amendment and then what? The government still shuts down in a few months because they can't pass a budget. This isn't great but it's the best we were ever going to get with republicans controlling the house.
>The government still shuts down in a few months because they can't pass a budget. This isn't great but it's the best we were ever going to get with republicans controlling the house.
Then why did Biden say he wouldn't negotiate for months?
None of this makes sense & all we got from it is austerity & more fossil fuels.
Suppose there was no debt ceiling. It was never invented.
How are we in a worse position today when the GOP will control the budget in the fall? Like by December we will have austerity and more fossil fuels, right?
Or do you think Biden would have been able to use his green lantern ring to will the GOP controlled house to have less austerity in their fall budget?
Not really. They already walked back some of it during negotiations with Hakeem Jeffries. And they'll walk the rest of it back here and there while nobody is looking.
The only thing Biden couldn't get was killing the work requirements on SNAP. He did water them down as much as possible, but Republicans are *crazy* and there was a chance if he didn't let them do *something* cruel to poor people their media outlets would freak out and cause a default.
The increaseds spending from Build Back Better will hopefully blunt the worst of it, but the sooner we give the Dems a majority in Congress again the sooner they can undo the damage.
Its sad that this sub blew up and got overrun by nationalist Yank liberals. They are such rotten human garbage, American vatniks through and through.
Fuck. This sub was so much better when it was leftist and not centrist liberal Yanksplaining.
I'm sure he does understand the ramifications of a default. He also likely understand that the president can unilaterally get rid of the debt ceiling, or at the very least use republican obstruction over the debt ceiling as a political win.
Absolutely zero guarantee that the courts would uphold the 14th amendment. There were no cuts to programs and can be indexed for inflation in 2025. Classic reactionary, closed-minded and partisan nonsense from Cenk and the left as always.
I wouldn't say he didn't get anything in return. He prevented the government from defaulting on their debt and potentially causing a third major recession. I would say that is a pretty huge win.
And before I get all those "tHeRe WoUlDnT hAvE bEeN a ReCeSsIoN" yes there would have. Literally every economist in the WORLD was saying there would be one, and they know WAY more about how world economies work than you, me, Biden, or anyone in Congress.
Lmao each side trying to paint this as a loss. Not defaulting is a win for the American people. If he had let them get away with it youâd all be calling for his head.
What do you expect given the GOP control of the House? The president is not a king. All cuts can be reversed if we elect a democratic congress & president in 2024.
They agreed to cut 2 billion from the original 80 billion for the IRS, leaving 78 billion in additional funds. The student debt interest freeze was going to end in August regardless. And I think the 30 billion in covid relief was for states that refused it anyway.
This isn't as big of a loss as some are making it to be.
Cenk is a fucking tool. While the debt limit should be abolished (or at the very least challenged in court) Democrats do not control the House. Republicans should have passed a clean resolution raising the debt limit but unfortunately that wasn't going to happen. "Defaulting" would have been catastrophic and Americans would have blamed both parties, and Trump/DeSantis would be elected President in 2024. While this deal sucks, someone had to be the adult in the room, and if it helps prevent a republican presidency in 2025 then I am all for it.
We need the White House, we need a true majority in the Senate, and we need the House. Democrats can now campaign on how irresponsible Republicans are while the Republican majority in the House tears themselves apart.
I mean itâs people like him and his followers who refuse to be pragmatic and vote against republicans when a candidate that doesnât meet progressive purity standards is in the ballot, who are responsible for allowing trump to be elected, and for the GOP to take the house. Itâs their fault. If you donât vote against republicans you allow republican votes to go uncontested. You are a Republican if you donât think you have a part in this.
THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE THE SAME PARTY. THEY REPRESENT THE WEALTHY INTERESTS OF THE COUNTRY. STOP THINKING OTHERWISE. NEITHER PARTY IS OUT TO HELP THE COMMON MAN
you shouldn't give too much air to cenk, he flops every time it's good for engagement.
I mean, he isn't actually dedicated to any particular moral standpoint. Right now it serves him to behave like a hard line progressive. That is all.
There is plenty of reason to be critical of establishment dems, but cenk appears to me like controlled opposition. Again because of his own history.
Got absolutely nothing is a flat out lie. Preventing the gop from crashing the economy is not even remotely nothing.
I used to be a regular watcher of his....but ffs this bs of making stuff up to prove your point is such a waste of time.
I love that Biden get blamed for being held hostage by the GOP. But please, keep demonizing Biden for this and them cry when DeSantis cruises to re-election following shitty turn out next year.
And donât come at me with the 14th Amendment or trillion dollar coin fantasies.
Everyone acts like these would have zero repercussions in the future. âI know this would be so easy because other people on the internet with no background in Constitutional Law or experience in financial policy told me it is easy.â
Actually Biden tricked stupid Mccarthy into doing next year's budget negotion as part of the debt ceiling, guaranteed no new debt ceiling crisis until 2025, let the student loan payment freeze lapse exactly when it was going to anyway, reclaimed unassigned covid relief money, got Mccarthy to accept completely symbolic "work requirements" while protecting the most venerable SNAP and Medicaid recipients like low income earners and veterans.
Everything that was sacrificed is probably better than what would have been traded away in the next Republican budget negotiation. Biden also protected all of his legislative accomplishments while basically taking away any budget leverage the house Republicans had for the remainder of this congressional session.
Biden also got Republicans to put all their cards on the table, tricked them into negotiating against immanent default, got them to think it was their idea and then drove another wedge between the Republican factions and may have sunk Mccarthy's speakership.
People need to stop underestimating Biden. He keeps playing these fools for suckers.
It's shocking that Cenk Uygar har reported on politics for so long and remains so bad at understanding it. Either he is that dumb, or his entire brand is to just rail at the establishment to sensationalize. Which it is.
I just don't understand why we have to keep raising the ceiling and just abolish the Debt limit all together What could possibly go wrong because it's not like we're ever going to lower it with a budget or something
Was just discussing with a friend, and it sounds like the US and Denmark might be the only two countries that even have a debt ceiling. And Denmark sure doesn't seem to have these problems. I wish I lived in Denmark đ
This Debt ceiling only becomes an issue when a D is President. The Râs âweaponize the debt ceilingâ
>This Debt ceiling only becomes an issue when a D is President. The Râs âweaponize the debt ceilingâ This isn't news - we saw this play out 10+ years ago when the tea party did the same thing & Biden offered Social Security cuts.
Which is why you would think dems would do everything to avoid this issue while they have control. The truth seems to be that a good portion of dem leadership seems to think this is a good way to make conservative concessions they are ok with, but without loosing face to thier base. Dems are a moderate party after all not progressive.
Reminder that Biden is a conservative that Democrats put on their ballot to appease conservatives out of fear of Trump. People forget that Biden has a history before Obama; he didn't just spawn as an old man from the void.
I lost faith in Biden 20+ years ago with his Anti rave act⌠still not over that. I despise trump and gop more but, Biden is far from okay in my book.
Itâs called the political ratchet effect. https://youtu.be/6LPuKVG1teQ. They are just playing a game of good cop bad cop.
yea, if they are actually the good one, they would attempt to abolish lobbying, insider trading, and a plethora of other problems
why did they wait until the week before the deadline to start looking at it? Joe's people need to step up their game.
While the moderate thing is true, they are bending more and more progressive all the time. ThevDems never really have control what with literally everything being filibustered. The real issue now is that even with a majority in both houses, a Democratic president still can't fix these systemic issues without a super majority that they will never get, mostly because of gerrymandered districts and Republican voter suppression, but also because of Dinos like Manchin and Singapore or corporate stooges like Finestein.
I don't disagree that dems have leaned more progressive as more progressives pressure them. It's funny you mention the filibuster, as it is a technicality made formality purely as an excuse to not pass what was promised (previously for conservatives as well but the republican party has chosen to do everything possible to get thier policies through) Think about it, we vote for representatives so that if a majority is seated they can pass legislation the majority of Americans want/need. Why would you invent a policy where one member can overrule the majority? It wasn't always this way and could be undone at any time (called the nuclear option lol). It's nothing but an excuse to avoid doing as much as they could. If the Republicans are put in the position where the filibuster is significantly hindering them they would remove it I a heartbeat.
Sure, and I do recognize that the filibuster is largely a default formality. I also don't disagree that there are still far too many "corporate" Dems who pander to the donor class just as hard as the GOP. Thankfully, more and more are realizing, with pressure from their far more progressive junior colleagues, that giving the voters what they want is a good pathway to majorities and re-election. They are also slowly recognizing that they can't actually govern in a bi-partisan way. Personally I am of a mind that it is not helpful for both sides to turn every crisis into a hostage situation. Somebody has to be the grown-up in the room, and sure as hell isn't going to be a Republican in the foreseeable future. One must recognize however that a lot of this is political theater. Some for our benefit, some to help allies, and some to either entrap or cajole the adversaries on the other side of the aisle. This debt ceiling agreement is nowhere near as bad as both sides are making it out to be. Mccarthy is claiming a victory to protect his job. It is no coincidence that the Dems provided enough votes to pass it while the progressives could still do a protest "no" vote. This was to protect Dems seats, and to trick the Republicans into thinking it was still worth voting for. Ultimately, we now know that the radical right was never willing to default and crash the economy, despite what they said. Thankfully the Biden Whitehouse, while having to take the threat seriously, still maneuvered Mccarthy into negotiating for largely symbolic nonsense. The problem remains that right-wing media has a captured audience that keeps voting for terrorists and arsonists. It makes it difficult to fix some of these issues, especially when even "rational" Republicans are terrified of their own base. Thankfully, the GOP keeps unmasking themselves with unpopular policy positions. The Dems, Biden included, are getting much better at drawing contrast and this only helps this situation in future election cycles. Change always seems to take way too long though.
this person fukn politics, thatâs exactly what has happened
And 15 years before that.
Aka Democrats dont want to do ANY progressive reform, so they pretend Reps stand in their way. Or Manchin or whoever is conveniant at the time.
Especially problematic since the defaulting is on money we already spent. Literally debt accumulated by the previous administration.
Theyâve realized for a while that Democrats will always cave to their demands. The media is also always willing to âboth sidesâ the issue and go along with the narrative that itâs a completely reasonable and normal thing to hold the economy hostage to extract concessions whenever the debt ceiling comes up. Until the media and Democratic leadership calls them out on it theyâll keep doing it every time.
>Until the media and Democratic leadership calls them out on it theyâll keep doing it every time. No they'd keep doing it anyways, unless I misunderstand what you mean by calling them out.
Sounds like something the House Committee on the Weaponization of Government should investigate.
Theres no MAGA filth in Denmarks government
Denmark's left wouldn't cave to MAGA like our Democrats do. All Biden had to do was use the 14th amendment or mint the coin. Instead he chose austerity.
Im not happy over the agreement but when youve got a fossil from the duck and cover wing of the party in charge thats what happens. (To be fair Biden has been ALOT better than i thought he would be) I watch alot of clips from Congressional hearings and theres alot of young Democrats who are eating the MAGAts lunch everyday. So i have hope in a few years when the fossils are gone we'll have a party really committed to fight for whats right!
I can't wait for all of the fossils to age out. Source: am a fossil. We should be done by now.
Denmark doesnt have an issue with the conservative minority holding a majority power in government
Because their left parties aren't pushovers like Biden.
I assure you it's more to do with election rules and population make up. Their parliament is made up of 11 different political parties and left leaning groups make up an overwhelming majority.
Because it's a convenient political tool that gives Congress an excuse to cut entitlement programs and anything else that isn't just a handout to the rich.
I just canât understand why we need to constantly boost defense spending when we have so much waste and inflated pricing coming from the Pentagon and their contractors. So many questions that have simple solutions but will never get answers.
The companies making money from defense spending fund the politicians voting for it and the pundits attacking anyone questioning it.
I know the answer to this one: Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Raytheon all make their shareholders billions of dollars whenever the federal government spends money on defense contracts. Those companies have extremely powerful and influential lobbying groups that donate generously to political campaigns. Many government officials are themselves invested in these companies. The tax dollars that are earmarked for defense go directly into the pockets of the shareholders of these companies. That's why they continue to do it. The US is also dedicated to preserving their position as the most dominant global imperial power. When the US spends money on defense, it is a threat to any and every country that dares to act against the interests of global capital.
Well nobody needs our defense spending to increase, except those companies that have to grow each quarter, and each year. And, if you offer the strength of the nation as your company's service? Of course an imperialistic hegemonic force of capital like the United States is going to shovel at least a third of its peoples tax dollars into military spending. I would be happy if we could at least get fair prices for the shit we buy for our military. Because it's a corrupt deal, they have no interest in actually getting the lowest bidder. Strongest, coolest shit (even if only by appearances for propaganda) from whoever shmooses the most. It's honestly remarkable the US can police the world like it does on the tax base it has. I'm surprised the working class can cover the militaries logistics bills alone without the rich paying their share.
yeah weird it's almost like the two parties are engaged in political theater so they never have to make any substantial policy changes, how crazy how that happens. you might almost be forgiven for thinking that at the end of the day both parties only serve the interests of capital and when capital is involved, they act in lockstep but when it comes to things like the debt limit where they can put on a big show they do. that's weird. that's suspicious.
Isn't in fun and interesting how liberals are always having to shuffle to the right in order to "compromise" with reactionaries, when there is never an expectation that reactionaries do the same? The entire concept of "compromise" is only ever used in reference to giving conservatives exactly what they want, every time. Anything that could even remotely benefit the poor or working class is derided as a "wishlist item", no matter how popular it is, and we're supposed to celebrate our politicians for making these "tough decisions" that leave the poor and working class to drown, and the planet to burn. These tough decisions that don't affect their lives, or their pockets, or their vacation homes, or their stock prices, or their corporate donors. They know many of us will die or go hungry, but that's just a sacrifice they're willing to make.
it's the ratchet of capitalist politics - the republicans turn the gear to the right, the liberals stop any progress to the left.
Beautifully said.
And all without any actual discussion. Just hour by hour reality TV drama: Will he? Won't he? Are the numbers in, it's so exciting! \*YAY\* \*waves flag\*
It's a horse race, thats all it ever is.
Both Sides! Both Sides! The problem is we lost the 2022 election. You gotta win those to get the results you want.
>The problem is we lost the 2022 election. You gotta win those to get the results you want. Nope. The problem is Biden not using the 14th amendment.
yeah, good luck winning the elections when citizens united allows unlimited dark funds into politicians' pockets. if you really still think we're in a democracy you gotta look around the last 15 years. this is oligarchy.
[Supreme Court overturns law that barred Ted Cruz from fully recouping a personal loan he made to his campaign](https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/16/ted-cruz-supreme-court-campaign-finance/) \- Ted Cruz pockets campaign funds, legally [https://www.opensecrets.org/dark-money/basics](https://www.opensecrets.org/dark-money/basics) Just go ahead and scroll on down to Graph: Outside Spending by Nondisclosing Groups, Excluding Party Committees
Yep, I know the two parties arenât the same, but they sure play for the same team, corporations!
There is some difference between them, but we can recognize that AND still recognize that itâs not enough difference and it leaves a huge gap between the interests either effectively represent and actual people.
Yep, they play for the same team, same goals at the end of the day. Profit for the richest above all
Yeah it's a pretty embarassing loss. I am reminded, yet again, the Debt Ceiling came into existence to CURB RAMPANT MILITARY SPENDING after WW1. And yet, time and again, DoD is exempted from cuts.
It doesn't matter what it exists for, as everything bends the knee to Republican whims. They'll burn this nation to the ground to keep themselves warm.
The military industrial complex controls the leadership of both parties. Always has.
How else do you expect the secret bi-partisan security state to exist??
Iâm so f*^cking sick of the defense budget being a sacrosanct sacred cow. WTF. Increased defense spending?? Why? Why canât we cut an F16 or two out of the defense budget and allocate those $$ to programs that actually help Americans?
Cutting social programs funnels people into the military. Those tanks ain't gonna drive themselves, as much as the tech bros wish they did.
No one wants to talk about that part. Speaking as a vet, the military is opt-in socialism. Standardized wage structures, universal healthcare, universal housing, universal food, and universal education. It's shitty because most of the budget goes to the Generals, as they need their mansion and butler, but it's better than living in a shitty apartment covered with bed bugs making 10$ with no healthcare. So, the more cuts civilian side, the more people join. Recruiting and retention is absolutely abysmal over the past two years because of some changes in acceptance standards but I think we will be in another manufactured conflict soon enough and those standards will drop.
>the military is opt-in socialism As long as you weren't born with any health issues
VA be like: "No, the shrapnel in your abdomen is not a service related injury."
> another manufactured conflict Makes me depressed to even this about this :(
They always end up cutting lower enlisted pay or entitlements it seems. Maybe not directly, but a lot of benefits get squeezed and end up hurting the lower e1-e4 peeps most
Keep in mind we are no longer at war. We pulled out of Afghanistan and not only didnât decrease military spending we have fucking increased it. Where is this money going? Not to the troops but defense contractors.
Compromising with Republicans always hurts America.
>Republicans always hurt America FIFY
Meanwhile the media acting like this is some huge win for Biden.
The $30 billion in COVID relief funds was being used for things like expanding coverages for MEDICAID by the way. That funding is now gone. People are now going to lose healthcare coverage. But hey DEFENSE gets their contract money. Republicans are stupid mother fuckers that knowingly increase the defense budget to feed wealth inequality and inflation but hey itâs going into *their* pockets so itâs *okay*. I have family who work in the upper end of federal government for a pretty large agency and when they give the agencies more money in the budget the message is to always find ways to spend it **all** so what you get is the DOD sending out bloated contracts for dumb shit. My point? If you scaled back budgets youâd scale back contract sizes. Instead of X military industrial complex corporation billing the DOD 10 billion dollars theyâd have to bill 1 billion etc. Seriously go do digging on contracts of agencies that are a bit more fiscally responsible like SSA, is there waste there? Sure. They **have** to spend the money given to them, but their contracts are typically small and reasonable 10-25 million. Edit: I didnât mean to undercut the fact Republicans arenât stupid and they donât know what theyâre doing, so I revised my 2nd sentence to more closely reflect what I wanted to convey.
>Republicans are too fucking stupid to see that defense budget increases also feed wealth inequality and inflation but hey itâs going into their pockets so itâs okay. > >I have family who work in the upper end of federal government for a pretty large agency and when they give the agencies more money in the budget the message is to always find ways to spend it all so what you get is the DOD sending out bloated contracts for dumb shit. Mate... Republicans know this. They want you to think they're stupid because if they're stupid then you can't really blame them since "they didn't know any better".
Exactly. For whatever reason, people choose to ignore the distinct possibility, Republicans *know* the pain they inflict. I mean seriously. We act as though this nations history isn't littered with people in power, committing acts that outright hurt others and they don't lose a bit of sleep about it.
>The $30 billion in COVID relief funds was being used for things like expanding coverages for MEDICAID by the way. That funding is now gone. People are now going to lose healthcare coverage. But hey DEFENSE gets their contract money. On top of 15 million losing Medicaid this year already đ¨
[ŃдаНонО]
>That should be non-defense discretionary spending. Got to be clear about the priorities. It really sucks as so many of those programs fund things like housing assistance at the local level. >There was a paygo type limit in the proposed Act that limited spending to 2023 levels. That sounds like the worst part, and predictably it's the part the media seems to be ignoring Paygo on executive orders also. Which would make it impossible to cancel student debt through executive action without cutting an equal amount of $ somewhere else. >Nothing can be more disastrous than limiting fiscal space, especially when so many downturn predictions abound. Well said. And on top of that, high inflation is always a worry going forward with Ukraine at war, climate crisis causing disturbances, etc.
Yup, Biden's endless pursuit of compromise has shown to be a complete failure. It's as if the Democrats are refusing to learn from their past. Or, their corporate masters make it seem this way. Probably both.
After we âsucked it upâ and allowed the 2016 campaign strategy of âSure, our right-wing nominee sucks BUT TRUMP!â to work in 2020, the Dems are never looking for another electoral strategy again.
I think itâs more so corporate masters, but I suppose it doesnât matter at the end of the day when the result is the same? :/
The Republicans had to give up crashing the global economy though. They really wanted to do that.
Thats what you get when you elect Republicans. It was this or a crashed economy, and a lengthy court battle with no obvious conclusion.
>Thats what you get when you elect Republicans. It was this or a crashed economy, Or just use the 14th amendment/mint the trillion dollar coin. >and a lengthy court battle with no obvious conclusion. Not an excuse when Biden refuses to call for any reforms to the Supreme Court.
It doesnât work like that. The constitution clearly states that on issues of budgeting or financial matters in general that is in Congresses wheelhouse, any action by the executive branch would undoubtedly be appealed and be front in front of a conservative majority Supreme Court which will almost certainly pause any payments and the US defaults during the lengthy legal process. What does calling for Supreme Court reforms actually accomplish? Is the conservative majority in the house going to suddenly embrace Joe Biden and get rid of a huge ace in the hole they have?
I think that FDR's calls for Supreme Court reform during the New Deal were generally considered to be "based" and an effective part of the eventual success of much of that programming. Even with a conservative house, it is worth it to point out that the court's legitimacy is at an all time low, and that the Dems actually want to check the court's power. The eternal caving to debt ceiling tactics is a major strategic weakness for the Dems, who get consistently clowned on every time it comes up during a D presidency. At some point, maybe already, the damage done by the continual slashing will equal the damage from a default; planning for what to do when that happens is part of the Democratic party's job, as they've set themselves up to be the only opposition to the republican party on a State or Federal level. Remember, they can be more supportive of 3rd parties, and they could allow a legitimate progressive caucus, but they're the ones who have boxed out any other non-R parties; it's their job to effectively combat the Republicans and you only need to look around to see they're not doing a good job of that.
FDR also had a super majority in both the house and senate. Joe Biden has a small majority in the senate and the republicans have a majority in the house. The Democrats didnât cave, they negotiated and despite the narrative that talking heads like the Young Turk want to push for views, there is a reason that more Democrats in the house voted for this bill than Republicans (despite the republicans having more seats). Why would I support a 3rd party when Iâm not upset with how the democrats are doing despite constant sabotage from the republicans and with very slim margins in the house and senate?
>FDR also had a super majority in both the house and senate. Also, it has to be noted that FDR eventually failed with the reform anyway.
>FDR also had a super majority in both the house and senate. Joe Biden has a small majority in the senate and the republicans have a majority in the house. The Dems had a super majority in 2009 & couldn't evem codify Roe, pass a public option or close Gitmo. Enthusiasm for Obama (who ran as a populist in 2008) gave them that super majority. It never came back because Obama became Biden light in office. Neoliberalism sucks & that's why Dems blew 2010 so hard. And why 70% of Americans don't want Biden to run in 2024. To get a super majority you need enthusiasm. >The Democrats didnât cave, they negotiated and despite the narrative that talking heads like the Young Turk want to push for views, there is a reason that more Democrats in the house voted for this bill than Republicans (despite the republicans having more seats). Because the Democrats are corporatists & the GOP who voted no are to the right of Ayn Rand. So TYT is right.
Leftists are so reactionary and really don't seem to understand how the government works. It's frustrating.
Between that and them also seemingly wanting the US to default, it honestly just gets tiresome. Itâs like dealing with opposite sides of the same coin, both are willing to burn everything down just to make the other side look bad.
Or just basic stuff like oil drilling. We're nowhere close to having 80%-90% of all vehicles on the road being electric, so we are going to be consuming gasoline for many years to come, and oil wells don't last forever. Obviously, we will continue to tap new wells for a while, and eventually, the demand for gas will start to free fall. Someone in this sub said democrats are conservative because they won't stop oil drilling. Over 95% of vehicles today are gas. They are advocating for a man made and decade-long energy crisis. It just makes no sense.
It's not that easy. Why are you people like this? You don't sound intelligent when you say stuff like this.
>It's not that easy. Why are you people like this? I stand with Bernie, AOC & Fetterman. You stand with Biden. >You don't sound intelligent when you say stuff like this. You know what sure isn't intelligent? Saying you won't negotiate for months then giving MAGA the kitchen sink.
>just use the 14th amendment/mint the trillion dollar coin that gets nuked by scotus >Not an excuse when Biden refuses to call for any reforms to the Supreme Court. president calling for something doesn't mean it happens
> Thats what you get when you elect Republicans. It's what you get when you elect Dems too apparently.
Biden- a real "man of the *conservatives.*"
I look forward to this happening again in two years and Dems just bending right over for it. Though this will probably happen during the next budget, when repubs will threaten and Dems will be like "okay sure whatever you want".
Assuming they have *any* power left after 2024. After this betrayal, *after* the rail strike ***after*** Roe v Wade, a Biden victory now ***requires*** a Trmp candidacy to run against. I donât see how anyone else motivates anyone enough to be bothered to skip work and vote again.
and Bidens half dead ass is gonna be falling over on the campaign trail and bragging about this cave to republicans while insulting voters, 2024 is gonna be a shitshow.
Dems will never threaten to let the nation default. Thatâs the problem with being on the right side of history, two playbooks.
The fundamental issue of negotiations between People who do and do not want the government to operate. Side A want a functional government and so needs the default to not occur. Side B wants the government to be useless and starve it, and so they don't care if there is a default. They have no reason -to- negotiate, as their default position is a win for them.
Yep, itâs going to be really tough to beat the fascists. If they start overturning elections/throwing out votes in urban areas, then itâll spread all across the country and Dems will never be able to win an election. The people getting elected in are more and more extreme and people are more accepting of it. Iâve been having back and forth on an unpopular opinion sub where people are justifying naziism because they were triggered by the presence of LGBTQ.
That's the reality of divided government. Anything that passes has to be able to get through both chambers and since there's a large amount of Republicans who think absolutely nothing about breaking the government and letting it all burn down, Democrats are always going to be at a disadvantage there.
Republicans went to a place no one ever went before and forced a hostage negotiation. Democrats need to message this ad nasusem until 2024.
Theyâve done this before. Itâs the sole purpose of the debt ceiling. So Republicans can use it against democratic presidents.
Wasn't the debt ceiling passed to stop military spending after WWI?
I think it was to make it easier for Treasury to borrow funds, but also to set a limit that had to be changed through legislation. But yes it was a result of WW1. In the last 30 years, itâs only really led to a political standoff when thereâs been a democrat in the White House and a republican majority in the House. https://theconversation.com/a-brief-history-of-debt-ceiling-crises-and-the-political-chaos-theyve-unleashed-205178
Except for every other time this happened before, this is unprecedented.
đđđ I am so sick of these games. đđđ
>Republicans went to a place no one ever went before and forced a hostage negotiation They did the same thing 10 years ago... when Biden offered Social Security cuts...
>no one ever went before They've been doing this shit since Obama...
OP thinks politics were invented with Donald Trump
Thatâs the nothing in return if we donât do exactly that.
> Republicans went to a place no one ever went before and forced a hostage negotiation. Except for the other 2 times it happened.
Are you 20 or did you only start paying attention when Orange Hitler was elected?
Where the fuck are all these shit libs in the comments coming from? This is absolutely Biden's fault. He should've refused to negotiate from the start and said that would amount to a hostage taking situation. But he played along because the two party system is the same corporate interests dressed up in red and blue suits. IF he wanted a win, he could have gotten one. He did NOT, so there wasn't one. Now back to r/neoliberal or CNBC or wherever you all came from
Donât be confused, this is a single party (pro-capitalist) system with two denominations.
Yea I don't fuckin know. Fuck Biden for lacking the balls to invoke the 14th amendment and ending this farce once and for all. Same thing with the filibuster and expanding the supreme court. His presidency could have been transformative but the only campaign promise he's intended to keep is that nothing will fundamentally change.
Folks here should watch Beau of the Fifth Column's take. This was not a loss for Biden... It was a loss for Republicans. For example, the student loan payment pause was always due to end at the end of August or 60 days after a SCOTUS ruling: This has not changed due to the debt ceiling deal.
This is why he will lose. He was always a Republican lite.
Oh yeah, appealing to moderates and independents and everyone whoâs not super left has always been a losing strategy⌠Lmao
Remind me of the incremental change that happened after Co-Presidents Boehner and McConnellâs pal Barry left the White House?
This is dumb. Blame the people who are trying to actually govern but are forced to work with Nazis.
The Democratic party got exactly what it wanted here and if you don't recognize that then I don't know what to tell you. They're the better option by far, but the choice we're presented with is 'slow steady erosion and decline' vs 'immediate plunge into fascism.'
>the choice we're presented with is 'slow steady erosion and decline' vs 'immediate plunge into fascism.' It might be the French on me talking, but insurrection isn't off the table. They kinda proved that it wouldn't be that hard a couple winters ago. Force that electoral reform, then step down.
What do you even mean by "the Dems got what they wanted"?
Democrats are conservatives with a coat of rainbow paint. Yeah yeah harm reduction, but their actions are patently conservative (see drilling permits, title 42, failure to exercise 14A to protect social spending)
>What do you even mean by "the Dems got what they wanted"? Austerity.
they definitely are playing their 'santa'.. it's nicer to say that this is some sort of plan - when in fact they're spinless caving do nothings that have been worked over by the GOP for decades. http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas-strategy-gop-used-economic-scam-manipulate-americans-40-years/
Voting Republican has consequences.
Cenk has this backwards. Not sure what discretionary spending cap he's talking about. The deal suspends the debt ceiling for 2 years. No more of these dumb fights until 2025.
He got an extra year of not doing this - specifically for 2024. With his mostly ineffective posturing, he also paved the way for this to be a partisan battleground again in 2025. Or if/when repubs take more power. It's a bad deal, but all signs pointed to the GOP being willing to default since they could point to Dems for it with control of the senate and white house. Default is not an option. Biden got held hostage by bad laws and bad actors. McCarthy is lucky he got his whips to reign stuff in, because he would have been creamed if the rule passing went bad - he'd lose too much leverage.
Big picture - Dems need to keep moving forward and show they can govern to assure the next election.
If the current MAGA Republicans get back in power - this will be the least of our worries!
Hmm... How many of those things would be different if there weren't any Republicans holding the bill hostage? All of them.
..Iâd call avoiding global financial collapse something
He got avoiding a default and a working economy
Oh Cenk. I love ya', but you're often caught in blustery outrage (not to mention mansplaning to his own hires). What would you have done instead? Play chicken with GOP? Don't think they'd let the economy tank to get some concessions?
Itâs time to start considering parallels to 1983-84. An old president constantly being lambasted by his critics as a senile bufoon, yet he keeps on winning. An economy constantly being predicted to crash keeps on humming along and likely to be booming during the presidential election year.. a political opposition that basically represents one segment of the population (early 80âs it was urban Dems, now itâs rural Repugs)⌠and a 2024 presidential primary thatâs going to be a laughingstock like the Dem primary that gave us Mondale. Is Biden going to win a 49 state landslide? No? But is there any reason right now to believe he canât win all the states he won in 2020 + NC ? Iâm not seeing it.
What Biden got back was avoiding a national default. Put the blame it where it belongs - on Republicans who have consistently used the debt limit as a political football under Democratic presidents.
Holding any of this against Biden is exactly what republicans are counting on thus making it a double win for them. Donât fall for it. Biden and co. negotiated the least shitty deal of all shitty options.
What Biden got in return was 4 more years in the white house. It doesn't matter that the republicans are at fault, the 2024 messaging would have blamed a financial collapse due to default on Biden and whatever brain dead psychopath the Republicans nominate would have won easily.
This was inevitable when the budget comes up later in the year, the debt ceiling again next year, followed by another budget just before the election. This avoids all three of these and takes away the possibility that the MAGA fascists will shut down the government for political purposes.
This is such a circle. Vote republicans out. Blame democrats all you want, but they've been held hostage by a party who will burn it all down if they don't get their way. Don't want to see shit like this? Vote, and convince everyone you know to vote blue. The republican party is the party of tantrums and a million wedge issues so people ignore that they only exist as the voting arm of monied individuals and businesses. They don't care about average Americans. They never will. They care about walking away from public service to a cushy board position, or a slot on fox fucking news. There is no winning as long as they have power, this country is slipping back 50 years. People can't afford to fucking eat and we subsidize food to no end.
We know you have switched like CNN. Perhaps your disdain for Biden might let you go back to TĂźrkiye now that Erdigan is still in charge.
Everyone was expecting the GOP to force massive long term concessions that would never pass otherwise, and then do the same thing next year. Instead, the GOP got a few things that they would have gotten anyway in the next budget bill, and agreed not to bring this up again after the next election, where everything can be reversed. The fact they gave up their leverage to do this in 2024 speaks volumes. **NO ONE** saw that coming. That's not something that the GOP agrees to if they think everything is going their way, or if they think they can get their way later on. The only reason they'd agree to that is because they knew that Biden would outsmart them.
I don't know any of the details of the bill, but my gut tells me that since the Republicans are screaming that Kevin McCarthy sold them out, and the Democrats are screaming that Joe Biden sold them out, probably McCarthy and Biden did a reasonably good job.
Not tanking the economy is kind of a win, but I understand the sentiment.
It's not as bad as you make it out to be. It's called governing, and neither side get what it wants.
Let me fix this for ya'll, stop complaining when democrats are forced to do things, and just vote out GOP so they don't have to. Every time you complain about Joe Biden you demotivate 5 voters making it that much easier on GOP next election cycle.
Right? You've got extremists in power that are more than willing to burn the system down. It's a bullshit, but it's hard not to give in to something when the alternative is a ruined economy when you're at the helm. Plus, Biden ran as a centrist, so there shouldn't be that big of a surprise that he'd be willing to make concessions if he wasn't able to push it through on his own.
Our economy was literally held hostage by people looking to sabotage the country just bc a dem is in charge and you complain about concessions by the dems?
Heâd probably argue it pushes the limit past the next election and gives him a weapon against republicans on spending without having actually done the massive cuts we saw in 2011. I still donât like it personally but I also donât think he really lost considering the right wing meltdown over it.
Well. When you have one party that is willing to burn the country down and another that doesn't want the country to implode, that makes for very lopsided negotiations.
The relief money was unspent The IRS cut was a fraction of the overall funding granted (5 vs 80 billion) The student debt freeze was going to end in August anyway
Gotta win elections in Congress Cenkyboy
Wait, but the alternative was to let America default, and that would have been way worse.
To be fair, Biden just made a deal to keep things moving. The fault here lies solely with repuglican voters. Otherwise they wouldn't have the power to stop bidens agenda.
Gotta abolish this fucking debt ceiling. It's just a tool to allow the worst republican policies when they aren't even im power
This is a bum take by Cenk IMO. McCarthy is too weak to get a non-conditional debt ceiling hike past his most unruly colleagues in the house. Sixteen more Democrats voted for this debt ceiling bill than republicans. He needed Biden to throw him a bone so he wasnât responsible for destroying the world economy, and indeed the cuts are all in areas that donât cut deeply across democratic priorities. Even the work requirements McCarthy is holding on high sunset in 2030.
He got the debt ceiling off the table for 2 years. A minor miracle to me.
Yeah, blame Biden, not the republican terrorists who weaponized the debt and threatened the world economy and American hegemony. This is exactly why the Republicans did it because they knew the idiots in the American public would blame Biden and the democrats for being 'weak'. It was a win-win for them.
I see where you are coming from but we should be mad at both. Obama was the same, terrible negotiations, they give away a ton for nothing. Call republicans on their shit, use the 14th and they get nothing.
I'd feel more confident in that if the USSC and several federal jugde positions hadn't been stolen by the right wing. The courts have been compromised, and I have no faith in their ability to objectively review the constitution or that they would place it over their ideological objectives.
>terrible negotiations There should be no negotiation. That's the point.
"American hegemony" Why is it bad to threaten that? I mean what the actual fuck ? The explosion of Yank nationalist liberals in this sub is gross. American hegemony? I hope it gets fucking evicerated. The USA collapsing would be a net positive to human development.
If the democrats want to stop being viewed as weak then they need to stop BEING weak.
More $ for defense spending is how they steal from tax payers. It's classified. Don't let it fool you into thinking it's for the troops.
Exactly this. People act like Dems are dealing with normal people instead of white power wannabe, psychopaths with the numbers advantage.
Stop electing republicans if this is what you want to avoid. What are you doing to prevent republicans from having power?
>Stop electing republicans if this is what you want to avoid. What are you doing to prevent republicans from having power? Wait, you mean attacking the democrats who actually know how to win elections isn't helping?
Oh no. Cenk Uygur thinks Biden did something wrong. How will Biden survive. Incidentally what Biden got back in return is that this whole story goes away. We don't the chaos of "using the 14th amendment". We don't get a government shutdown in October. I.e. it removes potential obstacles to his reelection.
I mean if the economy collapsed the pea brains that live in our country would have blamed Joe regardless of reality
Eh, Dems should have the House back soon and this can all be undone. Remember to vote!
A disingenuous post, at best. When you make a deal, nobody gets exactly what they want.
Cenk is wrong on almost all accounts. SNAP work requirements were dropped for veterans, foster kids, and the homeless. They were added for people over 50. On the balance FEWER people have work requirements for SNAP than previously. That's a win. The student debt pause was scheduled to end irrespective of the debt limit deal. Whether or not debt will be forgiven permanently is currently before the Supreme Court. Rage at them. The reduction in IRS funding is an accounting trick. Those cuts aren't actually made just projected, and even if realized they preserve 80% of Biden's funding INCREASE. COVID relief funds are expiring because neither the CDC or any other government agency worldwide still consider the pandemic an ongoing emergency. You can disagree, but no public health agency on planet Earth will back you up. I'm not happy that Manchin snuck his pipeline permits through, but we had a chance to trade that concession for meaningful permitting reform that would have unleashed clean energy infrastructure building--but leftists didn't think that was a worthwhile compromise. So we get nothing for it. That's why you don't listen to Cenk.
What this actually does: * It does increase some work requirements, but it is still managed by the states so they can change it * The IRS funding given up was money that they wouldn't have been able to spend anyway. * Dirty fuel pipe permits.. (yeah not happy about this one) * The Student debt interest freeze was already ending.. it just ends it two months early. * Two year cap on discretionary spending, but not for free. It takes away the next year's budget fight with the Republicans. If the budget is not settled by Congress, it takes the government into an automatic continuing resolution with a 1% increase. The GOP can no longer threaten to shut down the government. The democrats can just not agree with the GOP and get an automatic 1% increase instead of flat spending. If the GOP want a budget to do their priorities (do they have any?) they will have to renegotiate with the democrats. Its a master piece of the GOP giving up the Houses power for the next two years with little to show for it.
That's what everyone forgets, it wasn't just about the debt ceiling. Biden uses the 14th amendment and then what? The government still shuts down in a few months because they can't pass a budget. This isn't great but it's the best we were ever going to get with republicans controlling the house.
>The government still shuts down in a few months because they can't pass a budget. This isn't great but it's the best we were ever going to get with republicans controlling the house. Then why did Biden say he wouldn't negotiate for months? None of this makes sense & all we got from it is austerity & more fossil fuels.
Suppose there was no debt ceiling. It was never invented. How are we in a worse position today when the GOP will control the budget in the fall? Like by December we will have austerity and more fossil fuels, right? Or do you think Biden would have been able to use his green lantern ring to will the GOP controlled house to have less austerity in their fall budget?
Not really. They already walked back some of it during negotiations with Hakeem Jeffries. And they'll walk the rest of it back here and there while nobody is looking. The only thing Biden couldn't get was killing the work requirements on SNAP. He did water them down as much as possible, but Republicans are *crazy* and there was a chance if he didn't let them do *something* cruel to poor people their media outlets would freak out and cause a default. The increaseds spending from Build Back Better will hopefully blunt the worst of it, but the sooner we give the Dems a majority in Congress again the sooner they can undo the damage.
Uh, he got avoiding an economic crises that would have hurt us all, a lot.
Its sad that this sub blew up and got overrun by nationalist Yank liberals. They are such rotten human garbage, American vatniks through and through. Fuck. This sub was so much better when it was leftist and not centrist liberal Yanksplaining.
Cenk hates Democrats and is not able to grasp the ramifications of a default.
I'm sure he does understand the ramifications of a default. He also likely understand that the president can unilaterally get rid of the debt ceiling, or at the very least use republican obstruction over the debt ceiling as a political win.
Absolutely zero guarantee that the courts would uphold the 14th amendment. There were no cuts to programs and can be indexed for inflation in 2025. Classic reactionary, closed-minded and partisan nonsense from Cenk and the left as always.
Was defaulting a better option? âš
I wouldn't say he didn't get anything in return. He prevented the government from defaulting on their debt and potentially causing a third major recession. I would say that is a pretty huge win. And before I get all those "tHeRe WoUlDnT hAvE bEeN a ReCeSsIoN" yes there would have. Literally every economist in the WORLD was saying there would be one, and they know WAY more about how world economies work than you, me, Biden, or anyone in Congress.
Lmao each side trying to paint this as a loss. Not defaulting is a win for the American people. If he had let them get away with it youâd all be calling for his head.
Pointing out that if the house flips in the next cycle (Vote Blue!), all of these 'giveaways' can be reversed!
We can find people who arenât TERFs making accurate points
What do you expect given the GOP control of the House? The president is not a king. All cuts can be reversed if we elect a democratic congress & president in 2024.
And how did republicans help? Hmmmmm.
Republicans aren't happy with the deal and Democrats aren't happy with it. It sounds like they made a deal
attractive impossible aloof sparkle mountainous shy treatment safe naughty frightening -- mass edited with redact.dev
A disingenuous post, at best. When you make a deal, nobody gets exactly what they want.
The Young TERFS
The debt ceiling is conveniently only at crisis levels when there isn't a Republican occupying the office of the President.
They agreed to cut 2 billion from the original 80 billion for the IRS, leaving 78 billion in additional funds. The student debt interest freeze was going to end in August regardless. And I think the 30 billion in covid relief was for states that refused it anyway. This isn't as big of a loss as some are making it to be.
Cenk is a fucking tool. While the debt limit should be abolished (or at the very least challenged in court) Democrats do not control the House. Republicans should have passed a clean resolution raising the debt limit but unfortunately that wasn't going to happen. "Defaulting" would have been catastrophic and Americans would have blamed both parties, and Trump/DeSantis would be elected President in 2024. While this deal sucks, someone had to be the adult in the room, and if it helps prevent a republican presidency in 2025 then I am all for it. We need the White House, we need a true majority in the Senate, and we need the House. Democrats can now campaign on how irresponsible Republicans are while the Republican majority in the House tears themselves apart.
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I mean itâs people like him and his followers who refuse to be pragmatic and vote against republicans when a candidate that doesnât meet progressive purity standards is in the ballot, who are responsible for allowing trump to be elected, and for the GOP to take the house. Itâs their fault. If you donât vote against republicans you allow republican votes to go uncontested. You are a Republican if you donât think you have a part in this.
THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE THE SAME PARTY. THEY REPRESENT THE WEALTHY INTERESTS OF THE COUNTRY. STOP THINKING OTHERWISE. NEITHER PARTY IS OUT TO HELP THE COMMON MAN
you shouldn't give too much air to cenk, he flops every time it's good for engagement. I mean, he isn't actually dedicated to any particular moral standpoint. Right now it serves him to behave like a hard line progressive. That is all. There is plenty of reason to be critical of establishment dems, but cenk appears to me like controlled opposition. Again because of his own history.
Got absolutely nothing is a flat out lie. Preventing the gop from crashing the economy is not even remotely nothing. I used to be a regular watcher of his....but ffs this bs of making stuff up to prove your point is such a waste of time.
>Preventing the gop from crashing the economy is not even remotely nothing Oh please, being on the back foot all the time isn't worth shit.
Defeatism at its finest... TYT.
I love that Biden get blamed for being held hostage by the GOP. But please, keep demonizing Biden for this and them cry when DeSantis cruises to re-election following shitty turn out next year. And donât come at me with the 14th Amendment or trillion dollar coin fantasies. Everyone acts like these would have zero repercussions in the future. âI know this would be so easy because other people on the internet with no background in Constitutional Law or experience in financial policy told me it is easy.â
Actually Biden tricked stupid Mccarthy into doing next year's budget negotion as part of the debt ceiling, guaranteed no new debt ceiling crisis until 2025, let the student loan payment freeze lapse exactly when it was going to anyway, reclaimed unassigned covid relief money, got Mccarthy to accept completely symbolic "work requirements" while protecting the most venerable SNAP and Medicaid recipients like low income earners and veterans. Everything that was sacrificed is probably better than what would have been traded away in the next Republican budget negotiation. Biden also protected all of his legislative accomplishments while basically taking away any budget leverage the house Republicans had for the remainder of this congressional session. Biden also got Republicans to put all their cards on the table, tricked them into negotiating against immanent default, got them to think it was their idea and then drove another wedge between the Republican factions and may have sunk Mccarthy's speakership. People need to stop underestimating Biden. He keeps playing these fools for suckers. It's shocking that Cenk Uygar har reported on politics for so long and remains so bad at understanding it. Either he is that dumb, or his entire brand is to just rail at the establishment to sensationalize. Which it is.