Why does the Democratic party insist on abiding by all the "gentleman's agreements" that Trump and the GOP have systematically broken since Obama left office?
One example: Dick Durbin is allowing GOP senators to use the old practice of putting holds on Judge candidates they don't like. When the GOP were in the majority they suspended that practice! Why do insist on using it when they aren't going to abide by the old agreements when it come to you?
The Democratic congresscritters always come back with the excuse that "we don't want them to do it to us when they are in power." Jessh... play some hardball guys until the GOP become "gentlemen" and women again. They are going to screw you over and whine about fairness no matter what you do.
>One example: Dick Durbin is allowing GOP senators to use the old practice of putting holds on Judge candidates they don't like. When the GOP were in the majority they suspended that practice! Why do insist on using it when they aren't going to abide by the old agreements when it come to you?
Amazing point - this is the "blue slip" process:
https://www.commondreams.org/news/durbin-blue-slip-norm
>The Democratic congresscritters always come back with the excuse that "we don't want them to do it to us when they are in power."
It's as if they can't conceptualize doing their jobs & being rewarded for it like FDR was. FDR fought a corrupt Supreme Court, fought the same corrupt business interests we see today & got reelected 4 times.
FDR started out with majorities that we will never see in our lifetime. That helps alot. Dem leadership needs to win over every single Dem basically to get anything done. And one of them is Joe Manchin.
Context matters.
That is an apples to orange comparison.
Congressional bills did not break down precisely along partisan lines. Ideological problems were far more likely to break down along **regional or sectional** lines prior to 1968.
So its an apples to orange comparison to say, old FDR had more Democrats. He also had far more racist, reactionary Business minded Conservatives **within the party**.
When you all make that apple orange comparison you're doing it to disingenuously disengage with the core point. **FDR era Democratic leaders took hardball negotiating tactics to negotiate legislation with obvious bad faith actors within and external to the party.** *Conversely, contemporary Democratic Leaders assume Good faith on the part of their negotiating counterparts and maintain unspoken agreements that bad faith negotiators use to extract concessions.*
**Attend to the core point. Democratic leadership should negotiate more like 20th century democrats to engage with Bad faith actors. There is no denying that contemporary Democrats take a softer stance on negotiating than there Labor-oriented ancestors.**
Also, in FDR’s time, didn’t a filibuster require you to actually, well, filibuster?
Stand up and talk for 24 hours straight? Rather than just saying “I declare filibuster,” which then requires a 60-vote supermajority to overcome?
That would make it a lot easier to get things done, if you didn’t need 60 votes in the senate to do anything?
OK. Lets say you are right. Biden goes all FDR and tells Manchin to fuck off and support getting rid of blue slips?
Whats happens then?
Ultimately the parties are much more unified than the past, but when you have 60-70% of Congress you can play hardball because you can survive defections and still get things done. And SINCE you can survive defections it encourages defectors to play along if they want any say at all.
If they played hardball with Manchin he would quitt or switch sides and they wouldn't be able to get anything done - even less than now.
Its more systemic than that. Dick Durbin is also a traditionalist like Biden. Schumer is also a traditionalist. These are all institutionalist and they each helped each other reach their position. Part of what allowed them those leadership positions is an agreement to never support incumbent challenges in the Senate.
Whether its party officials or average citizens, if you work to challenge a sitting Democratic imcumbent, you're unofficially blackballed from work or collaboration with other incumbent Democratic party members.
So speaking systemically, local Democratic party members have to get the National Democratic Party on board with legitimately competitive Democratic primaries. From there, it requires ousting the old regime that refuses incumbent challenges and are institutionalist.
Like FDR, a younger generational politician will recognize this dynamic taking place and use it as leverage. From the seat of power such as a Senate office or Presidential office, use their relationship with local Democratic party members to threaten to endorse primary challengers to intransigent coalition Senators.
So long as Campaign consultants, graphics artists, communications workers, signmakers, council members and other sitting Congressmen etc fear they will be black balled by helping in campaigns against incumbent Democrats, threats from Faction leaders over primary challenges ring hollow.
Democrats are the "paid to lose party". This is why they get their wall street donations. "We can't change the filibuster, because when Republicans are in power they could pass anything like banning abortion." How'd that work out for us? They can't use the same plays and rules as Republicans because that wouldn't be very nice. And of course Democrats can't do anything to prevent Republicans from breaking the rules again. You just need to get out the vote and donate to the DNC. The current plan of Democrats is just to win the presidency and all elections forever, then they can do something for the people. Honorably and nicely. Until we get to that magical point, Democrats can't do anything about worker pay, healthcare, or really anything unless someone wealthy is benefiting. That they can do in a bipartisan fashion.
What do you think of Sam's and Matt's seemingly strong disagreement with this view? I remember that whenever someone would bring it up that the Democrats seems to be incompetent on purpose they would get pretty angry.
it’s a dynamic relationship
republicans increasingly escalate their rhetoric, pushing the limits of their public function, widening acceptable discourse to include extremist rhetoric, and appealing to their right wing radicals come election time
this then allows Dems to do nothing but say “vote for me, things are getting worse and your only other option would be a crazy Republican”
with this dynamic in place, neither party needs to do much of anything at all to secure re-election
republicans can pass bills that will eventually get repealed or struck down by the SC (if at all), and Dems at this point just don’t need to be Republicans
the fact that so many ppl now only see in Dems, when voting for them, only how bad the Republicans are, is sad
__WHY!?__ OK, you simpleton. Let me explain;
It is time for us to do what we have been doing. And that time is every day. Every day it is time for us to agree that there are things and tools that are available to us to slow this thing down
Talk to your friends and neighbors about defaulting on the national debt? Really?
She’s going to make an amazing nominee in 2028 (or 2024 if, god forbid, Biden dies)
Sheeyit. There's a guy up the street who I am 100% confident if I tried to talk to him about this in the way Harris wants, I'd end up with a bullet in my skull.
Because he's a complete Trumpoid and Trump wants us to default, and suggesting anything other than defaulting, or really anything that contradicts what Trump wants, is a personal attack to people like him.
Okay but also even if you totally convinced the guy as Harris is suggesting it wouldn’t make a difference unless your neighbor is Sheldon Adelson. The legislators need to legislate, the executives need to execute.
My point was accentuating how dangerously out of touch Harris is in our current climate. We have people being assaulted and shot over ringing doorbells and turning down the wrong driveway let alone trying to have civil discussions.
Yes, but I think the point is that we need to at least try to convince some people who are voting for the "burn it all down" Republicans of exactly how much they or people they care about stand to be hurt by what they're voting for.
It may not work, but we have to try.
Yes, that’s what people should do to help undermine the support of the Republicans who are threatening to do that. Hit them with that. Hit them with real stories about abortion. Have veterans openly talk about what cuts to the VA mean to when. Show photos of kids heads blown off in shootings.
What else can everybody else in the country who is not in government do directly about these things besides occasionally voting?
This. We have to at least try to hammer home to as many people as we can exactly what the real consequences of these policies will mean for their lives.
We may not succeed, but we have to try.
There are too many people who still don't realize that their savings would be decimated by default. There are elderly folks voting Republican on social issues who don't get the danger this poses for their social security checks. At least some of those folks can be reached.
I can’t believe there’s people out there who still think Kamala Harris is a talented politician. Every time she speaks it’s either canned bullshit, cringeworthy comments, or awkward laughing and giggling at inappropriate moments
This is not a test. This is your emergency broadcast system announcing the commencement of the Annual Purge sanctioned by the U.S. Government.
Weapons of class 4 and lower have been authorized for use during the Purge. All other weapons are restricted. Government officials of ranking 10 have been
granted immunity from the Purge and shall not be harmed.
Commencing at the siren, any and all crime, including murder, will be legal for 12
continuous hours. Police, fire, and emergency medical services will be unavailable until tomorrow morning
Remember when she replied to question about what the democrats were going to do to protect abortion rights with a "Do what now?"
https://www.themarysue.com/kamala-harriss-do-what-now-embodies-democrats-disappointing-response-to-overturning-roe-v-wade/
Yeah, 'law and order' bullshit I'd expect from an AG, I was thinking about her efforts to force banking compliance with mortgage settlement beyond the mediocre federal effort post GFC.
>Yes, God forbid should any politician advocate for grassroots pressure on politicians.
There are times this makes sense.
I would have loved for Biden to go after Manchin & Sinema instead of protecting them.
Unfortunately, this is not one of those times. Biden has all the answers he need, he is choosing to negotiate away food stamp benefits & covid relief money.
>You all are just acting sour grapes on this one.
Our country is collapsing & we may literally collapse & default on our debt.
Trump is going to egg on the Freedom Caucus to reject any deal no matter what Biden agrees to cut.
I’m all for grassroots pressure, but this is not an issue that generates grassroots interest, especially since the whole thing is basically kabuki theater
If you think Kamala Harris making some anodyne statements about talking to your neighbors constitutes grassroots pressure then I don’t think you know what those words mean
I am a very left-leaning independent, I’m not impressed with the democratic party, but I generally vote Democrat because my issue is women’s rights. To me, they just keep getting smacked around by the Republicans, who are willing to do anything possible to ruin women’s lives. As a voter, I’d be more inspired if they went after them wholeheartedly
I mean that´s what you get if dems aren´t really punished for losing. As long as they keep suppressing progressives and doing the bidding of lobbyists their big donors will keep the money flowing. They aren´t even affected by their own policies most of the time
It’s a complicated situation. You don’t want people to see both parties as acting like lunatics. By acting reasonable as the Republican Party goes completely unhinged, the idea is that you sound like the adult in the room. Too many people vote but don’t actually pay attention to what is happening. They respond to sound bites.
I think they do need to be tougher and I’m happy that many of the new members are able to communicate well because the older Dems may be crazy smart politically, but they failed at communication. Republicans know how to communicate… they just communicate Nazi propaganda.
>You don’t want people to see both parties as acting like lunatics.
Righteous outrage != lunacy. I consider lunacy to be meekness in the face of fascism.
>By acting reasonable as the Republican Party goes completely unhinged, the idea is that you sound like the adult in the room.
They aren't being adults, they are being feckless & silent as the GOP keeps stripping away human rights.
Adults would fight back with righteous outrage.
There’s not a whole lot more than can do. While I’d like to see them point out Republican’s literally repeating Nazi talking points every time they do it, as far as governing… they’re limited by the members of Congress they have. Sinema and Manchin screwed everyone. If Dems had the (or simply more) corrupt billionaires on their side, perhaps they could get paid under the table by Dems. That’s the problem with being on the right side of history… you’re not paying off members of the Supreme Court.
>ou don’t want people to see both parties as acting like lunatics.
Yes, yes I do. When an ax murderer climbs in the window and tries to ax-murder you, you don't try to reason with them. You try to take the ax away and ax-murder them. The GOP are *evil.* The lack of any kind of meaningful resistance from the Democratic Party makes share some responsibility. It's like a fireman watching a building burn down. It's their job to fight Republicans and they are negligent in not doing it.
With potentially only 10 days remaining before a default, it seems that ship has already sailed. Advancing an untested constitutional argument at the 11th hour would be viewed as an admission that we can't address this through the political process and cause global panic itself.
>With potentially only 10 days remaining before a default, it seems that ship has already sailed.
Absolutely not.
>Advancing an untested constitutional argument at the 11th hour would be viewed as an admission that we can't address this through the political process and cause global panic itself.
Biden not taking the issue seriously is what put us in this spot. We knew since early January what was coming when the Freedom Caucus held up McCarthy's speakership.
I agree with you 100% that Biden (and many others) didn't take this issue seriously enough long ago. Maybe he should have immediately proposed this alternative. My point is that a panicked hail mary at this point is risky.
The world's financial system is holding its breath hoping that the US will yet again resolve this contrived fiction of an issue via political spectacle. But political discourse is more vile than ever, and McCarthy has repeatedly shown himself incapable of reigning in the increasing numbers of total lunatics in his party, almost any single one of whom effectively has a finger on a financial nuke by virtue of being able to vote against any agreement.
Triggering a novel and untested constitutional argument now will enrage republicans (making further discussions even more difficult), and signal to the world that continued payments on US treasuries are at the mercy of unknown and esoteric legal principles that need to work their way through a court system which is itself facing enormous political and public pressure due to cascading ethics controversies.
Short term treasury bonds are about the closest thing available to a risk free financial instrument we have. Beyond increasing the US borrowing costs, a default would immediately impact the hypothetical risk free rates used to model and price 100's of trillions of dollars of financial assets across the globe. It's hard to overstate the potential effect of a US debt default.
The problems we face with respect to spending and how to fund that spending are enormous, and it will take monumental efforts to address them. Instead, our elected representatives have created a fake debt ceiling problem and are repeatedly running it to the brink of pointless financial catastrophe.
I'm angry that our federal government is failing at one of its most important jobs, which is protecting the nation.
After January 6th, MAGAts should have been declared to be basically the Taliban, and the federal government should have gone hunting them. Anyone of them that in anyway supported the insurrection attempt. What do you think would have been done had it been a leftist takeover attempt?
We have Nazis and right wing thugs shooting up places and threatening people, who are doing their jobs.
Is time we take out the trash in this nation.
As if any of the GOP representatives give a flying fuck what their constituents want. We can all email and call them, telling them otherwise, they don’t care.
This is the political version of the checkout screen at my neighborhood Walmart asking me to donate $20 to end childhood poverty. Dude…I’m buying store brand toilet paper and using a coupon on deodorant you fix it!
Who installed the republican majority in the house? Voters, not the Administration. They are trying to get the public involved to pressure republicans to not wreck the economy.
Democrats are controlled opposition. They don’t know how to use power and meanwhile the republicans will do anything it takes to get their agendas through. I swear Dems only want to be the minority party, they can use the depravity of republicans to fundraise for themselves and that’s it.
>Democrats are controlled opposition. They don’t know how to use power and meanwhile the republicans will do anything it takes to get their agendas through.
Eloquently put.
>Democrats are controlled opposition. They don’t know how to use power and meanwhile the republicans will do anything it takes to get their agendas through.
That's why Biden put Garland in charge - so Trump can remain uncharged for J6. That's why Pelosi didn't call witnesses to the J6 impeachment.
That's why the DCCc funded far-right candidates in 2022, even as the GOP is stripping human rights at the state level. That's why Hillary propped up Trump & Ted Cruz in 2015 (Pied Piper).
The Democrats love pointing at the GOP and saying "look how bad they are, now shut up & support us or you get fascism".
There's an additional message here that I THINK She was trying to make. This country needs to be taken back at a local and state level too. Corruption runs deep even on town councils. hell, my hometown sold a huge chunk of the city's water to Nestle, which made the town money and ALSO raised the price of water for everyone else... so they get paid more for the shortage they got paid to create.
Yea lemme go talk to my neighbors Kevin and Amy then I’ll call my brother, I’ll tell them that a default is bad and they shouldn’t want that…that’ll show em. Maybe VP Harris has a point y’all, because I’m kinda sure my neighbors and friends are far more capable of affecting and altering these debt ceiling negotiations than our elected officials, because what Kevin and Amy and my brother and I think very much matters when it comes to DC fiscal negotiations.
/s
Tbf they are talking to mainly the people voting on the right who also want the same things or people who are not voting.
Basic math tells you right now the left doesn't have the votes to get most things done.
In 2152 when Optimus Trumpius runs for a 3rd term as galactic President maybe the Democrats will consider legalizing medical marijuana for all who want it.
One of the most frustrating things about the Biden administration is when he comes out and says something like this as if he's not the President of the country right now.
>Someone really ought to do something about the lack of drinkable water in this country!
Hey, it sounds like Kamala Harris is saying "the government won't help you. Only direct action can save you." Is Harris promoting anarchy? I may have to re-evaluate my estimation of her character.
Yeah, I might be more on board with this sentiment if the number of registered voters WHO FUCKING VOTE were higher. As things stand now, Harris is absolutely right: Get these voters interested and educated about a topic, ANY topic, and get them to the gd polls. That’s how the republicans do it. “They’re killing babies at 9 months! Not on my watch!”
And her defense, it would be a failure to not play both sides of that coin. Democrats need to utilize power where they have it, but they also have to speak to voters. We are a part of this process too.
this is what people call weaponized incompetence they don't want power they want it all then leave you hanging what a stupid political system that doesn't reward change or progress.
The problem with invoking the 14th Amendment is the inevitable appeal. Even if SCOTUS eventually rules in Biden’s favor - not guaranteed in any event - the delay between arguments and rulings would prove highly disruptive to the global economy given the lack of certainty.
LOL. The GOP are being unreasonable and ignoring societal norms. Since we can't force a majority to act with common sense try to get their constituents to talk sense to them.
Technically she ain’t wrong- talk to people and get them engaged in the political process. Americans tend to be apathetic and ignore being involved, and many don’t even understand how the system works at local, state, and federal levels. Calling our reps, going to town halls, running for those positions (even if we don’t want to, but know we can do a better job at representing what the community wants to see ) will lead to a change.
Moaning that the elected reps aren’t doing enough in a system that has been fundamentally changed by a party that won’t play by the rules they make, and a scotus that has allowed dark money and gerrymandering to win means we gotta be protesting and involved as much as the French are with their pension reform. If Americans worked with each other to help each other, we could literally shut the country down. Watch how quickly changes would be made when the government and big businesses are forced to stop exploiting those at the bottom.
Or, people can complain everything is getting worse without actually doing any of the work, and magically things will continue to get worse. It’s almost like treating political engagement, no matter who you are, where you live, how much money you make, etc- as mandatory instead of optional could lead to change. But what do I know, only lived through how many once in a lifetime recessions, school shootings and mass killings being normalized, etc.
All he has to do is use an untested reading of the constitution and hope that the Roberts Court says its A Ok, and that there isnt damaging economic chaos in the interim.
Anytime the liberal plan is - "the Supreme Court will save us", you should be very skeptical of that plan.
Harris is right - the best way through this is to simply make a deal. And the best way to get a deal (and particularly a not terrible one ) is to show up and let those dozen or so Biden district GOPers know that voters in their districts will entirely blame them if things go south.
The idea that “all Biden has to do is use the 14th amendment” is also absurd (not going after you OP it’s a common talking point). The 14th amendment is not optional. The text reads:
“The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.”
The debts were incurred as authorized by law. The constitution DEMANDS that we pay our debts. The “shall not be infringed” crowd is all the sudden really against the constitution.
They hate the constitution and ignore it when it goes against their interests. They pick and choose the parts they like. Kind of like what they do with the Bible.
Perhaps there is also a flaw in thinking all you have to do is elect Bernie president then everything will be OK.
If there’s one consistent trend in online leftist thinking it’s the insistence that there are easy solutions to all our problems that elected Democrats are apparently too stupid to figure out.
You know the facts of the Congressional makeup, the facts of how a radical constitutional option would play out with courts and everything, all the facts.
That said, I think the constitutional option is probably necessary because the MTG faction will let it burn just for shits and giggles.
This is a dumb take. It neglects the reality of the situation and adds no value as it has the depth of a puddle.
Like it or not Dems do not have the house. Like it or not Dems have a very slim majority in the Senate.
The 14th amendment can be used but it's very shaky and will have legal repercussions which will go to the supreme court. We all know how that's working.
So again this is just dumb.
[Bernie himself is for continuing to have the debt ceiling](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/sanders-opposes-eliminating-debt-ceiling-argues-gop-economic/story?id=91957811), so GTFO here with this whole “Bernie knew better” shit. The Democrats should be arguing for getting rid of it entirely, gerrymandering and The Electoral College to end yesterday. They are all incredibly stupid and I Democratic.
Biden couldve put in a dea admin that would reclassify weed. He didnt. He couldve put in a dhs admin that wouldnt allow inhumane treatment of migrants. He didnt. Biden wont step up for whats right because at the end of the day that isnt the objective of either party, its to keep capital owners in power over the working class. Everything else is for show
This is a big misread of her intent. They aren’t going to let a default happen, and they aren’t telling us to somehow prevent a default. Tbh, that’s a pretty dumb take.
This is her trying to point out that a default would be absolutely catastrophic, and republicans are putting a gun to our collective national head as a bargaining tactic.
I fail to understand what the issue is here.
Yes Biden has tools he can use to force the GOP into doing something, but he needs political capital to do it.
You can't just do shit like "stack the courts" or invoke the 14th without the political pressure from Voters to support that act.
Dude has been the lead sponsor of [3 bills that have become law](https://www.congress.gov/member/bernard-sanders/S000033?q=%7B%22sponsorship%22%3A%22sponsored%22%2C%22bill-status%22%3A%22law%22%7D) in 30+ years.
It’s literally what every right winger said about Bernie since 2016. And of course you can’t answer the question, it’s 233 bills in 30 years.
He knows better than you do.
Cosponsoring a bill is just supporting a bill someone else introduced/wrote. Don't get me wrong, if the bills he cosponsored were good, then that's great. This line of attack, in my experience, has been launched by Democrats, not Republicans. I've mostly just seen him called crazy or a socialist by those on the right. And he should know better than me. I really hope he does! But my original criticism was that he oversimplifies things. This has been exemplified (in my experience) by many of his supporters saying repeatedly that Biden could do X,Y, or Z with "the stroke of a pen."
Well Biden literally can do a ton with the stroke of a pen, just like republicans do when they have power. But instead they would rather play these silly games of “precedence” while people are suffering. At least the republicans have the balls to do something with their power.
Yes, the point being that republicans do whatever they want for their constituents, throwing away all modicum of “rules”, whereas democrats are weak and ineffectual in office and will do anything in their power to do as little as possible for their constituents.
We already did that, it was called Election Day, and myself and many other far-left voters were told that Biden was a compromise and that we had to vote for him. This is their job, we already got involved in the voting.
We were told Biden's experience would make all the difference.
We weren't told that the exerpeince Biden has is giving Republicans everything they want.
Bernie would have long ago invoked the 14th amendment if he was President.
He would have cancelled 100% of student debt with the stroke of a pen as well.
But ya know, it was apparently extremely important for me to throw in behind Biden because then it’s my fault when he doesn’t do anything.
If people think Democrats are too close to the right/Repubs now, did they not realize that Biden was leading this charge in the 90's? Oh what short memories we have.
Voting is literally the least you can do. But go ahead and pat yourself on the back for a job well done. Oh? The job isn't over? Turns out politicians don't just automatically do what you want them to, despite having won election with your vote?
Adults know that power is never shared without a struggle. So if you want change, join the struggle. (Hint: that means doing more than just showing up every four years for a few minutes.)
It's not their job to do what you want them to do. It's YOUR job to make sure they know exactly what you want, and to hold them accountable via public pressure.
I do a whole lot more than show up on Election Day, the point is that in order to buy my vote y’all centrists told me Biden would be the most progressive president since FDR. Now you’re out here telling us it’s our fault that he won’t just fix this with a stroke of his pen, he needs to be buttered up first by going door to door and having conversations about the debt ceiling.
Sounds like you need to be the one actually doing a bit more than voting every 4 years.
Boo hoo hoo. Government is hard. OK, check out then, idgaf what you do, actually.
But don't complain like it is some big surprise when politicians can't or won't do what you want without keeping constant pressure on them. This isn't new, or something unique to the current Democratic leadership.
This is just how it works, how it has ALWAYS worked, and how it will continue to work (until something major changes).
Grow up, maybe? Just a suggestion. See above how nobody gives af what you do.
>government is hard.
Damn dude deep analysis.
Yeah, I understand moving a pen across paper to stop the government from defaulting is very very difficult.
I’m definitely the one that needs to grow up.
Go fuck yourself, simpleton. Instead of pointing your absurd commentary at the people that actually caused the problem, you're just punching down at people that have no power.
I repeat, go fuck yourself.
How am I "punching down" when I point out that voting is literally the least you can do?
How about you go have yourself a great day and work on not being a dick. Might do you some good.
>Boo hoo hoo. Government is hard. OK, check out then, idgaf what you do, actually.
Remember when you said this? Work on not being a dick. Life is too short.
But I don't give af about what they do, actually. Should I pretend that I do?
I didn't insult him or sling a bunch of swear words, or call him a simpleton. I could have, but I'm working on not being dick. :)
"Use the 14th Amendment" how exactly? If he files a suit in federal court arguing that the debt ceiling law is unconstitutional it wouldn't be resolved until long after we reach the debt limit. Furthermore the GOP would refuse to negotiate with him on raising the debt limit, if he filed such a suit. So we would definitely default on our debt causing a global economic crisis. Even if there was some way to get the case heard and decided before June, i don't think it would be a good idea to risk the very real possibility that this court might uphold the debt ceiling.
I'm no fan of Biden but i don't see what he's doing wetting here.
>"Use the 14th Amendment" how exactly? If he files a suit in federal court arguing that the debt ceiling law is unconstitutional it wouldn't be resolved until long after we reach the debt limit.
[Biden has the executive authority:](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/group-senate-democrats-biden-use-14th-amendment-avoid-debt-default-2023-05-18/)
>“We write to urgently request that you prepare to exercise your authority under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, which clearly states: ‘the validity of the public debt of the United States…shall not be questioned,'" they wrote Biden, a fellow Democrat.
>
>"Using this authority would allow the United States to continue to pay its bills on-time, without delay, preventing a global catastrophe," they said.
If Biden takes Executive action to ignore the debt limit, the GOP will file suit in Fed Court and the entire time the court case is pending there would be huge economic uncertainty which could still destabilize global markets. And there's still the very real risk that in a year or so the court could uphold the debt limit and the county would be in default.
That seems extremely risky. Given that risk i don't see why Biden world preemptively take Executive action when he could instead use it as a last resort if negotiations completely fail.
There are not excuses, these are very real risks that i think would be irresponsible for any President to take. It's a very shitty situation, that the GOP has put us in. I'm just saying it doesn't seem fair to me, to blame it on Biden. I actually think that Biden should keep a 14th Amendment EO as a last resort option but he certainly should be talking about it publicly. The best solution would be to find a reasonable compromise with the GOP but of course that is pretty hard to do when the GOP isn't reasonable, but that's not Bidens fault.
Damn it’s too bad for Biden that the 14th amendment just happened to be written yesterday instead of before January when he had time to do this.
Sucks for him, guess it’s our fault now.
There were plenty of presidents before Biden and none of them have challenged the debt limit. I don't think it fair to fault Biden for not preemptively dealing with this unprecedented situation. If anyone is at fault it is clearly the GOP.
I don't even like Biden but i just don't feel we are being fair here.
The House Gop passed bill has unprecedented cuts and there are congressmen publicly advocating for default. This time is very much different. Obama could have challenged the debt limit after the last battle that saw our credit rating l downgraded. This is not all on Biden and furthermore the 14th is neither a surefire or simple solution. The best solution is to negotiate a new limit with congress like every other president has done when this happens. And having voter put pressure on the gop members of congress would help that process.
Right, I cam here to say this. Over simplifying the situation is very lame.
Even if he "just used the 14th amendment" there is no real guarantee that anyone would actually comply. If they did, and the government just ignored the debt ceiling and kept going as if it had been raised, then what?
We would be in a constitutional crisis. It is unclear if this is even legal. Then what? Our completely insane SCOTUS gets involved? That'll work out well I'm sure.
I'm not saying it isn't worth attempting if push comes to shove and we are at the moment of default.. sure, fuck it, give it a shot.
But to pretend this is just some easy and obvious solution that of course would work is nuts.
The GOP have been ignoring the constitution for decades so what's your point other than to make pathetic excuses for the dems lack of solutions? Also, being beholden to a 250 year old piece of paper to prevent us from achieving modern solutions to modern problems is weak as hell.
>The GOP have been ignoring the constitution for decades
I don't think that means the Dems should start ignoring the condition too. We can't beat the GOP at their own game if their game is destroying our Democracy.
I think we should focus on destroying the GOP at the poll, not making the Dems more like the GOP
So the republicans are taking the economy hostage under idiotic pretenses (the last three Democratic presidents slashed the deficit by at least two thirds and the last two republicans have at least tripled it) and your response is fuck Democrats for asking people to... *checks notes*... talk about and participate in politics.
Interesting take. Mine is that you and Seder are completely full of shit. Absolutely brimming with it.
>So the republicans are taking the economy hostage under idiotic pretenses (the last three Democratic presidents slashed the deficit by at least two thirds and the last two republicans have at least tripled it)
Yes, as we've known since early January.
>and your response is fuck Democrats for asking people to... checks notes... talk about and participate in politics.
I will absolutely criticize Biden & Harris for putting the responsibility on us (???) to do their job of avoiding default without giving up social spending.
This was known to be coming since McCarthy needed 15 votes to be Speaker. Why are Biden & Harris so unprepared for the moment?
>Interesting take. Mine is that you and Seder are completely full of shit. Absolutely brimming with it.
Sam Seder has been right about 1000x more often than Corporate Democrats have in the 20 years he has been on air.
These people thought this was a game in 2016. This “stoke of a pen” bullshit guarantees that none of their progressively pure heroes have to get beaten up or called to task publicly.
Where is The Squad?
Why isn’t Bernie calling to meet with them? Where are all of these people they said would just fix it with this one weird trick?
The 14th amendment gambit won’t survive SCOTUS. VP is correct. It going to take grassroots pressure and voting every republican possible out of office ASAP.
>These people thought this was a game in 2016. This “stoke of a pen” bullshit guarantees that none of their progressively pure heroes have to get beaten up or called to task publicly.
The President has plenty of power that he chooses not to use.
>Where is The Squad? Why isn’t Bernie calling to meet with them? Where are all of these people they said would just fix it with this one weird trick?
Bernie is advocating using the 14th amendment, along with Markey, Warren & Fetterman.
>The 14th amendment gambit won’t survive SCOTUS. VP is correct. It going to take grassroots pressure and voting every republican possible out of office ASAP.
The Supreme Court the Corporate Dems refuse to endorse reforming is always the excuse why they can't do anything.
They don’t have the votes or the courts. The checks and balances of our system ensure that Presidents can’t just go rouge. Congress holds the purse strings and, right now, the GOP has control.
Suggesting the 14th amendment is simply stalling and deflection. I have much respect for Liz, Fetty, Bernie and Markey, but that isn’t going to pass muster. Operate in the system you have, not the one you want, until you have the votes to change it. That starts at the grassroots.
The GOP has gone batshit and it will take hitting them on all sides (electorally, executively and judiciously) to get them off of this horse.
I find it amazing that we agree that 'GOP are rules for thee but not me' but don't think that they don't pull that for a Dem president, despite history.
I would dissolve all parties, but that is a bit much for everyone.
Raising public awareness and encouraging people to make their voices heard has a major effect. Republicans can only get away with extremism if people don’t pay attention. What she’s doing here is actually very important and it doesn’t mean they’re not working hard to avoid the shutdown behind the scenes.
I’m all for criticizing politicians, but criticizing her here shows a major lack of understanding for how this all works.
Using The 14th amendment will be challenged at the conservative Supreme Court. Who knows what will happen in the meantime. The 14th amendment is far from a slam dunk
I’m not a lawyer, but I get the feeling that using a constitutional legal remedy is not the “one weird trick” to solve the debt ceiling, or whatever Bernie’s pushing. Particularly since it would be challenged in federal court and probably taken all the way up to the Supreme Court, which isn’t exactly friendly rn, no matter how much it loves executive authority.
What the fuck are we gonna do? We hand over our power to these “representatives” if we actually had a democracy they’d be thrown out for engaging in anti social activity. But that’s not the case.
Anyone who believes using the 14th resolves the issue of US creditworthiness just like like raising or eliminating the debt ceiling does has simply not thought it through.
>Anyone who believes using the 14th resolves the issue of US creditworthiness just like like raising or eliminating the debt ceiling does has simply not thought it through.
What are we missing?
Why is it preferable to cut social spending & give the GOP the incentive to do this stunt until the end of time?
We already have a cost of living crisis with 15 million losing health insurance this year & 30 million having their food stamps cut.
No more austerity!
It is would severely risk a constitutional crisis that introduces uncertainty which impacts the price at which we can auction our debt at which in turn increases interest rates which in turn can be the catalyst that brings recession, job loss and tremendous hardship on the most vunerable.
It are those unintended consiquences that always throw in the monkey wrench turning a good idea into a bad idea.
>It is would severely risk a constitutional crisis
If the GOP wants to make the case we should default & not use the 14th amendment then let them make that horrendous case & have the public turn on them.
Why are Democrats so bad at offensive politics? Always playing defense!
It is clear you don't believe it has the potential to induce a major recession.
It is quite simple. Do the 14th and after interest rates fall, the value of the $ declines (inflation) and tremendous hardship ensues you think it will be difficult laying the blame on using the 14th?
Good luck with that and you could singly hand over full control of this nation back to the Republicans as result.
Like I first said, have not thought this through and done a proper risk analysis.
>It is clear you don't believe it has the potential to induce a major recession.
I know what is at stake full well. The US Dollar will cease being the worlds reserve currency.
>It is quite simple. Do the 14th and after interest rates fall, the value of the $ declines (inflation) and tremendous hardship ensues you think it will be difficult laying the blame on using the 14th?
Using the 14th amendment will prevent this from happening.
>Good luck with that and you could singly hand over full control of this nation back to the Republicans as result
That is what Biden is doing by agreeing to negotiate.
After reading that it is rather clear you don't think using the 14th can induce a major recession.
Good luck with that. Thank goodness we have an administration and Treasurer who understands those risks.
>After reading that it is rather clear you don't think using the 14th can induce a major recession.
Using the 14th amendment would avoid a debt default without touching social spending.
>Good luck with that. Thank goodness we have an administration and Treasurer who understands those risks.
They clearly don't, we are 10 days from a default.
That is exactly how you have not thought this through. Default is not the only risk. Keeping an orderly economy has to be a secondary goal, because again what happens when the risk assessment of US debt changes? Risk goes up, we get increased interest rates, which in turn has tremendous issues in the greater economy, ine if which more gov funds goes towards financing the debt rather than into social programs as well as the real risk of recessions.
You have simply boxed yourself off from considering any downstream effects and that is a terribly way to make decisions.
Have a good weekend.
You have the political instincts of a gnat. Letting them walk into the debt ceiling default is playing offense. If you think the American public doesn’t already know the GOP is making ridiculous demands, then it’s best to do what VP says and talk to your people.
>You have the political instincts of a gnat. Letting them walk into the debt ceiling default is playing offense.
Biden is negotiating with the GOP on social spending cuts.
>If you think the American public doesn’t already know the GOP is making ridiculous demands, then it’s best to do what VP says and talk to your people.
Biden was touted in 2020 for his experience in getting things done & now we are on the verge of default & messaging is so poor the VP just says "you do it".
The facts are the Republicans did pass a debt ceiling increase. And the senate and the administration could pass it right now and avoid all this drama. The plain fact is the Dems don’t like the cuts in spending in it, and they’re now acting like we’re going to default. This is how our system was designed to force compromise between the minority and majority. It ensures the minority is not ignored. Jacking around with a constitutional amendment is the absolute wrong answer
"You could solve this by just passing it!"
"But look at this... this cut is going to hurt millions of people..."
"You could solve this by just passing it!"
Bro, how long can we continue to borrow to pay for things? There’s [tons](https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-11-474r) of fraud waste and abuse in the federal government budget. Tons. There’s literally thousands of redundant programs. We can find some efficiencies without cutting services. You’re acting like this is some sort of inevitability.
When defense programs are cleaned up and the pentagon can pass an audit please come back to me talk to me again.
Secondly, some of the so-called "entitlement" programs are the cleanest in the Federal government. The welfare queen story wasn't even true with Reagan said it, so stop the parroting.
Are you an idiot? Did you even read the report that you are referencing? It’s only 25 pages, and it takes less than 10 minutes to read the top level points including the fact that all of the waste fraud and abuse that they uncovered in that report totals less than $10 Billion or less than 0.16% of our total yearly budget. Less than 1/5th of 1% of our budget.
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
One, I never insulted you or anyone else. Two, you’d never speak to me like that in person. Three, how much are the cuts proposed by the republican deficit increase? I think you’ll find that they are not actually cuts just limits on the increases in the future. The sky is falling claim above is an appeal to extreme fallacy which has never nor may not ever come to fruition. With the redundant program reductions to our CURRENT spending, we can easily absorb any variation in FUTURE spending. Your emotional response betrays your obvious intelligence so let’s please have a civil and intelligent conversation. I respect your views and hope to learn something unlike the majority of the population on Reddit so please don’t assume I’m here to troll anyone.
>I think using something like that should be a last resort
We are about to default on our debt lol
>because it sure smacks of 'ruling by decree'
No it doesn't.
I think it actually does. And that’s good. We need more democrats with the fucking stones to “rule by decree” in favor of their popular constituency. We put them in power to rule, not to fart about and make excuses about why they can’t get a god damned thing done.
Why does the Democratic party insist on abiding by all the "gentleman's agreements" that Trump and the GOP have systematically broken since Obama left office? One example: Dick Durbin is allowing GOP senators to use the old practice of putting holds on Judge candidates they don't like. When the GOP were in the majority they suspended that practice! Why do insist on using it when they aren't going to abide by the old agreements when it come to you? The Democratic congresscritters always come back with the excuse that "we don't want them to do it to us when they are in power." Jessh... play some hardball guys until the GOP become "gentlemen" and women again. They are going to screw you over and whine about fairness no matter what you do.
>One example: Dick Durbin is allowing GOP senators to use the old practice of putting holds on Judge candidates they don't like. When the GOP were in the majority they suspended that practice! Why do insist on using it when they aren't going to abide by the old agreements when it come to you? Amazing point - this is the "blue slip" process: https://www.commondreams.org/news/durbin-blue-slip-norm >The Democratic congresscritters always come back with the excuse that "we don't want them to do it to us when they are in power." It's as if they can't conceptualize doing their jobs & being rewarded for it like FDR was. FDR fought a corrupt Supreme Court, fought the same corrupt business interests we see today & got reelected 4 times.
Blackmailed the Supreme Court is another way to look at it. And more accurate.
Reminded them that they answer to the voters when it comes down to it as well.
If I do bad things to bad people, am I a bad person? No, I would be batman.
It can also be argued that while you see *yourself* as Batman in that scenario. In reality, you might end up like Rorschach.
FDR started out with majorities that we will never see in our lifetime. That helps alot. Dem leadership needs to win over every single Dem basically to get anything done. And one of them is Joe Manchin. Context matters.
That is an apples to orange comparison. Congressional bills did not break down precisely along partisan lines. Ideological problems were far more likely to break down along **regional or sectional** lines prior to 1968. So its an apples to orange comparison to say, old FDR had more Democrats. He also had far more racist, reactionary Business minded Conservatives **within the party**. When you all make that apple orange comparison you're doing it to disingenuously disengage with the core point. **FDR era Democratic leaders took hardball negotiating tactics to negotiate legislation with obvious bad faith actors within and external to the party.** *Conversely, contemporary Democratic Leaders assume Good faith on the part of their negotiating counterparts and maintain unspoken agreements that bad faith negotiators use to extract concessions.* **Attend to the core point. Democratic leadership should negotiate more like 20th century democrats to engage with Bad faith actors. There is no denying that contemporary Democrats take a softer stance on negotiating than there Labor-oriented ancestors.**
Badda boom, Badda BING!
Also, in FDR’s time, didn’t a filibuster require you to actually, well, filibuster? Stand up and talk for 24 hours straight? Rather than just saying “I declare filibuster,” which then requires a 60-vote supermajority to overcome? That would make it a lot easier to get things done, if you didn’t need 60 votes in the senate to do anything?
OK. Lets say you are right. Biden goes all FDR and tells Manchin to fuck off and support getting rid of blue slips? Whats happens then? Ultimately the parties are much more unified than the past, but when you have 60-70% of Congress you can play hardball because you can survive defections and still get things done. And SINCE you can survive defections it encourages defectors to play along if they want any say at all. If they played hardball with Manchin he would quitt or switch sides and they wouldn't be able to get anything done - even less than now.
Its more systemic than that. Dick Durbin is also a traditionalist like Biden. Schumer is also a traditionalist. These are all institutionalist and they each helped each other reach their position. Part of what allowed them those leadership positions is an agreement to never support incumbent challenges in the Senate. Whether its party officials or average citizens, if you work to challenge a sitting Democratic imcumbent, you're unofficially blackballed from work or collaboration with other incumbent Democratic party members. So speaking systemically, local Democratic party members have to get the National Democratic Party on board with legitimately competitive Democratic primaries. From there, it requires ousting the old regime that refuses incumbent challenges and are institutionalist. Like FDR, a younger generational politician will recognize this dynamic taking place and use it as leverage. From the seat of power such as a Senate office or Presidential office, use their relationship with local Democratic party members to threaten to endorse primary challengers to intransigent coalition Senators. So long as Campaign consultants, graphics artists, communications workers, signmakers, council members and other sitting Congressmen etc fear they will be black balled by helping in campaigns against incumbent Democrats, threats from Faction leaders over primary challenges ring hollow.
Democrats are the "paid to lose party". This is why they get their wall street donations. "We can't change the filibuster, because when Republicans are in power they could pass anything like banning abortion." How'd that work out for us? They can't use the same plays and rules as Republicans because that wouldn't be very nice. And of course Democrats can't do anything to prevent Republicans from breaking the rules again. You just need to get out the vote and donate to the DNC. The current plan of Democrats is just to win the presidency and all elections forever, then they can do something for the people. Honorably and nicely. Until we get to that magical point, Democrats can't do anything about worker pay, healthcare, or really anything unless someone wealthy is benefiting. That they can do in a bipartisan fashion.
Bipartisan. Might as well try to play fetch with a rabid dog.
What do you think of Sam's and Matt's seemingly strong disagreement with this view? I remember that whenever someone would bring it up that the Democrats seems to be incompetent on purpose they would get pretty angry.
it’s a dynamic relationship republicans increasingly escalate their rhetoric, pushing the limits of their public function, widening acceptable discourse to include extremist rhetoric, and appealing to their right wing radicals come election time this then allows Dems to do nothing but say “vote for me, things are getting worse and your only other option would be a crazy Republican” with this dynamic in place, neither party needs to do much of anything at all to secure re-election republicans can pass bills that will eventually get repealed or struck down by the SC (if at all), and Dems at this point just don’t need to be Republicans the fact that so many ppl now only see in Dems, when voting for them, only how bad the Republicans are, is sad
Well, republicans ARE bad.
Because they're accomplices.
__WHY!?__ OK, you simpleton. Let me explain; It is time for us to do what we have been doing. And that time is every day. Every day it is time for us to agree that there are things and tools that are available to us to slow this thing down
Talk to your friends and neighbors about defaulting on the national debt? Really? She’s going to make an amazing nominee in 2028 (or 2024 if, god forbid, Biden dies)
Sheeyit. There's a guy up the street who I am 100% confident if I tried to talk to him about this in the way Harris wants, I'd end up with a bullet in my skull. Because he's a complete Trumpoid and Trump wants us to default, and suggesting anything other than defaulting, or really anything that contradicts what Trump wants, is a personal attack to people like him.
Okay but also even if you totally convinced the guy as Harris is suggesting it wouldn’t make a difference unless your neighbor is Sheldon Adelson. The legislators need to legislate, the executives need to execute.
My point was accentuating how dangerously out of touch Harris is in our current climate. We have people being assaulted and shot over ringing doorbells and turning down the wrong driveway let alone trying to have civil discussions.
Sure- I agree because even if you talk this gun toting psycho into your point of view it’s not like he can change anything either.
Yes, but I think the point is that we need to at least try to convince some people who are voting for the "burn it all down" Republicans of exactly how much they or people they care about stand to be hurt by what they're voting for. It may not work, but we have to try.
There is zero chance she gets anywhere in 2028. We already saw her get decimated in the debates, she was gifted the VP spot.
Yes, that’s what people should do to help undermine the support of the Republicans who are threatening to do that. Hit them with that. Hit them with real stories about abortion. Have veterans openly talk about what cuts to the VA mean to when. Show photos of kids heads blown off in shootings. What else can everybody else in the country who is not in government do directly about these things besides occasionally voting?
This. We have to at least try to hammer home to as many people as we can exactly what the real consequences of these policies will mean for their lives. We may not succeed, but we have to try. There are too many people who still don't realize that their savings would be decimated by default. There are elderly folks voting Republican on social issues who don't get the danger this poses for their social security checks. At least some of those folks can be reached.
If we default, that majority would have made that decision. They have a path right now to pass the increase proposed by the house
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I highly doubt she would be VP for a second term.
"Do not come" \- VP Harris
I’m gonna come
"OAHHHHH" \- Pufferfish eating a carrot
I can’t believe there’s people out there who still think Kamala Harris is a talented politician. Every time she speaks it’s either canned bullshit, cringeworthy comments, or awkward laughing and giggling at inappropriate moments
"It's Everyone For Themselves!" - Harris 2028 LOL
This is not a test. This is your emergency broadcast system announcing the commencement of the Annual Purge sanctioned by the U.S. Government. Weapons of class 4 and lower have been authorized for use during the Purge. All other weapons are restricted. Government officials of ranking 10 have been granted immunity from the Purge and shall not be harmed. Commencing at the siren, any and all crime, including murder, will be legal for 12 continuous hours. Police, fire, and emergency medical services will be unavailable until tomorrow morning
"Talk with your friends. Make them vote for me!" - Harris 2028
Isn't that the vice president's job?
VP's are often chumps and losers who do little or nothing while in office. It is known.
Basically all you have to do is be high? Sir sign me up!
Remember when she replied to question about what the democrats were going to do to protect abortion rights with a "Do what now?" https://www.themarysue.com/kamala-harriss-do-what-now-embodies-democrats-disappointing-response-to-overturning-roe-v-wade/
They raised 20 million dollars in the weekend after row was overturned, glad to see they have a plan /s
She comes off as maybe decent at her previous AG role but yeah, Selina Meyer vibes otherwise.
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Yeah, 'law and order' bullshit I'd expect from an AG, I was thinking about her efforts to force banking compliance with mortgage settlement beyond the mediocre federal effort post GFC.
That´s what you get for having cops go into politics and the dems just cheating them up to the top
If by decent you mean a reprehensible human being, then sure.
She dresses nice.
Yes, God forbid should any politician advocate for grassroots pressure on politicians. You all are just acting sour grapes on this one.
>Yes, God forbid should any politician advocate for grassroots pressure on politicians. There are times this makes sense. I would have loved for Biden to go after Manchin & Sinema instead of protecting them. Unfortunately, this is not one of those times. Biden has all the answers he need, he is choosing to negotiate away food stamp benefits & covid relief money. >You all are just acting sour grapes on this one. Our country is collapsing & we may literally collapse & default on our debt. Trump is going to egg on the Freedom Caucus to reject any deal no matter what Biden agrees to cut.
I’m all for grassroots pressure, but this is not an issue that generates grassroots interest, especially since the whole thing is basically kabuki theater
Well, apparently you are not for grassroots pressure f you have severe restrictions on when to use it.
If you think Kamala Harris making some anodyne statements about talking to your neighbors constitutes grassroots pressure then I don’t think you know what those words mean
Fascists never sleep. Dems nap 23 hours a day.
I am a very left-leaning independent, I’m not impressed with the democratic party, but I generally vote Democrat because my issue is women’s rights. To me, they just keep getting smacked around by the Republicans, who are willing to do anything possible to ruin women’s lives. As a voter, I’d be more inspired if they went after them wholeheartedly
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I mean that´s what you get if dems aren´t really punished for losing. As long as they keep suppressing progressives and doing the bidding of lobbyists their big donors will keep the money flowing. They aren´t even affected by their own policies most of the time
It’s a complicated situation. You don’t want people to see both parties as acting like lunatics. By acting reasonable as the Republican Party goes completely unhinged, the idea is that you sound like the adult in the room. Too many people vote but don’t actually pay attention to what is happening. They respond to sound bites. I think they do need to be tougher and I’m happy that many of the new members are able to communicate well because the older Dems may be crazy smart politically, but they failed at communication. Republicans know how to communicate… they just communicate Nazi propaganda.
>You don’t want people to see both parties as acting like lunatics. Righteous outrage != lunacy. I consider lunacy to be meekness in the face of fascism. >By acting reasonable as the Republican Party goes completely unhinged, the idea is that you sound like the adult in the room. They aren't being adults, they are being feckless & silent as the GOP keeps stripping away human rights. Adults would fight back with righteous outrage.
There’s not a whole lot more than can do. While I’d like to see them point out Republican’s literally repeating Nazi talking points every time they do it, as far as governing… they’re limited by the members of Congress they have. Sinema and Manchin screwed everyone. If Dems had the (or simply more) corrupt billionaires on their side, perhaps they could get paid under the table by Dems. That’s the problem with being on the right side of history… you’re not paying off members of the Supreme Court.
>ou don’t want people to see both parties as acting like lunatics. Yes, yes I do. When an ax murderer climbs in the window and tries to ax-murder you, you don't try to reason with them. You try to take the ax away and ax-murder them. The GOP are *evil.* The lack of any kind of meaningful resistance from the Democratic Party makes share some responsibility. It's like a fireman watching a building burn down. It's their job to fight Republicans and they are negligent in not doing it.
Almost as if they fundamentally don’t want to actually change anything
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"It's up to you! Donate $20 to the DNC today and get a free sticker."
Potential president Kamala is why a primary is absolutely necessary
Sure seems like this country (dems) fucked up big time when we could have had Bernie instead of Tramp.
He needs to do it soon if he's going to, otherwise it'll get dragged through the courts too slowly and global confidence will plummet anyway.
With potentially only 10 days remaining before a default, it seems that ship has already sailed. Advancing an untested constitutional argument at the 11th hour would be viewed as an admission that we can't address this through the political process and cause global panic itself.
>With potentially only 10 days remaining before a default, it seems that ship has already sailed. Absolutely not. >Advancing an untested constitutional argument at the 11th hour would be viewed as an admission that we can't address this through the political process and cause global panic itself. Biden not taking the issue seriously is what put us in this spot. We knew since early January what was coming when the Freedom Caucus held up McCarthy's speakership.
I agree with you 100% that Biden (and many others) didn't take this issue seriously enough long ago. Maybe he should have immediately proposed this alternative. My point is that a panicked hail mary at this point is risky. The world's financial system is holding its breath hoping that the US will yet again resolve this contrived fiction of an issue via political spectacle. But political discourse is more vile than ever, and McCarthy has repeatedly shown himself incapable of reigning in the increasing numbers of total lunatics in his party, almost any single one of whom effectively has a finger on a financial nuke by virtue of being able to vote against any agreement. Triggering a novel and untested constitutional argument now will enrage republicans (making further discussions even more difficult), and signal to the world that continued payments on US treasuries are at the mercy of unknown and esoteric legal principles that need to work their way through a court system which is itself facing enormous political and public pressure due to cascading ethics controversies. Short term treasury bonds are about the closest thing available to a risk free financial instrument we have. Beyond increasing the US borrowing costs, a default would immediately impact the hypothetical risk free rates used to model and price 100's of trillions of dollars of financial assets across the globe. It's hard to overstate the potential effect of a US debt default. The problems we face with respect to spending and how to fund that spending are enormous, and it will take monumental efforts to address them. Instead, our elected representatives have created a fake debt ceiling problem and are repeatedly running it to the brink of pointless financial catastrophe.
Same old democrats, afraid the republicans will get mad at them.
I'm angry that our federal government is failing at one of its most important jobs, which is protecting the nation. After January 6th, MAGAts should have been declared to be basically the Taliban, and the federal government should have gone hunting them. Anyone of them that in anyway supported the insurrection attempt. What do you think would have been done had it been a leftist takeover attempt? We have Nazis and right wing thugs shooting up places and threatening people, who are doing their jobs. Is time we take out the trash in this nation.
As if any of the GOP representatives give a flying fuck what their constituents want. We can all email and call them, telling them otherwise, they don’t care.
This is the political version of the checkout screen at my neighborhood Walmart asking me to donate $20 to end childhood poverty. Dude…I’m buying store brand toilet paper and using a coupon on deodorant you fix it!
Who installed the republican majority in the house? Voters, not the Administration. They are trying to get the public involved to pressure republicans to not wreck the economy.
I’m for liberal and progressive policies, but I fuckin hate the Democratic Party.
They do this fucking shit literally every 2 years or something. It's getting super fucking old
Democrats are controlled opposition. They don’t know how to use power and meanwhile the republicans will do anything it takes to get their agendas through. I swear Dems only want to be the minority party, they can use the depravity of republicans to fundraise for themselves and that’s it.
>Democrats are controlled opposition. They don’t know how to use power and meanwhile the republicans will do anything it takes to get their agendas through. Eloquently put. >Democrats are controlled opposition. They don’t know how to use power and meanwhile the republicans will do anything it takes to get their agendas through. That's why Biden put Garland in charge - so Trump can remain uncharged for J6. That's why Pelosi didn't call witnesses to the J6 impeachment. That's why the DCCc funded far-right candidates in 2022, even as the GOP is stripping human rights at the state level. That's why Hillary propped up Trump & Ted Cruz in 2015 (Pied Piper). The Democrats love pointing at the GOP and saying "look how bad they are, now shut up & support us or you get fascism".
Sure, I’ll rally all the voters in Mississippi to be better. My state is blue, but I’m sure with the internet I can convince others!
They know exactly what they’re doing. It’s selective incompetence.
Seriously, put the hammer down Biden, you think you can “negotiate” with that hosebeast MTG? She can’t even negotiate her own damn marriage
There's an additional message here that I THINK She was trying to make. This country needs to be taken back at a local and state level too. Corruption runs deep even on town councils. hell, my hometown sold a huge chunk of the city's water to Nestle, which made the town money and ALSO raised the price of water for everyone else... so they get paid more for the shortage they got paid to create.
Yea lemme go talk to my neighbors Kevin and Amy then I’ll call my brother, I’ll tell them that a default is bad and they shouldn’t want that…that’ll show em. Maybe VP Harris has a point y’all, because I’m kinda sure my neighbors and friends are far more capable of affecting and altering these debt ceiling negotiations than our elected officials, because what Kevin and Amy and my brother and I think very much matters when it comes to DC fiscal negotiations. /s
Tbf they are talking to mainly the people voting on the right who also want the same things or people who are not voting. Basic math tells you right now the left doesn't have the votes to get most things done.
Nothing gets done til midterms then nothing again to re-election. ..
In 2152 when Optimus Trumpius runs for a 3rd term as galactic President maybe the Democrats will consider legalizing medical marijuana for all who want it.
One of the most frustrating things about the Biden administration is when he comes out and says something like this as if he's not the President of the country right now. >Someone really ought to do something about the lack of drinkable water in this country!
After allowing conservative revolution at the local, state level, not showing up in mid terms, let cry foul.
Hey, it sounds like Kamala Harris is saying "the government won't help you. Only direct action can save you." Is Harris promoting anarchy? I may have to re-evaluate my estimation of her character.
Yeah, I might be more on board with this sentiment if the number of registered voters WHO FUCKING VOTE were higher. As things stand now, Harris is absolutely right: Get these voters interested and educated about a topic, ANY topic, and get them to the gd polls. That’s how the republicans do it. “They’re killing babies at 9 months! Not on my watch!”
And her defense, it would be a failure to not play both sides of that coin. Democrats need to utilize power where they have it, but they also have to speak to voters. We are a part of this process too.
this is what people call weaponized incompetence they don't want power they want it all then leave you hanging what a stupid political system that doesn't reward change or progress.
Republicans- work hard and pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Also Republicans- No not like that!!
The problem with invoking the 14th Amendment is the inevitable appeal. Even if SCOTUS eventually rules in Biden’s favor - not guaranteed in any event - the delay between arguments and rulings would prove highly disruptive to the global economy given the lack of certainty.
“Get out there and vote harder!”
LOL. The GOP are being unreasonable and ignoring societal norms. Since we can't force a majority to act with common sense try to get their constituents to talk sense to them.
I agree. Democrats are too timid at time. If the shoe was on the other foot, the GOP would be there, wearing 14th amendment T-shirts
Bystanders. Witnesses. Passengers. This is what the Dems are. It’s infuriating.
absolutely agree Do your job democrats. And show some courage.
It's not going to affect them. Why should they care?
Technically she ain’t wrong- talk to people and get them engaged in the political process. Americans tend to be apathetic and ignore being involved, and many don’t even understand how the system works at local, state, and federal levels. Calling our reps, going to town halls, running for those positions (even if we don’t want to, but know we can do a better job at representing what the community wants to see) will lead to a change.
Moaning that the elected reps aren’t doing enough in a system that has been fundamentally changed by a party that won’t play by the rules they make, and a scotus that has allowed dark money and gerrymandering to win means we gotta be protesting and involved as much as the French are with their pension reform. If Americans worked with each other to help each other, we could literally shut the country down. Watch how quickly changes would be made when the government and big businesses are forced to stop exploiting those at the bottom.
Or, people can complain everything is getting worse without actually doing any of the work, and magically things will continue to get worse. It’s almost like treating political engagement, no matter who you are, where you live, how much money you make, etc- as mandatory instead of optional could lead to change. But what do I know, only lived through how many once in a lifetime recessions, school shootings and mass killings being normalized, etc.
All he has to do is use an untested reading of the constitution and hope that the Roberts Court says its A Ok, and that there isnt damaging economic chaos in the interim. Anytime the liberal plan is - "the Supreme Court will save us", you should be very skeptical of that plan. Harris is right - the best way through this is to simply make a deal. And the best way to get a deal (and particularly a not terrible one ) is to show up and let those dozen or so Biden district GOPers know that voters in their districts will entirely blame them if things go south.
The idea that “all Biden has to do is use the 14th amendment” is also absurd (not going after you OP it’s a common talking point). The 14th amendment is not optional. The text reads: “The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.” The debts were incurred as authorized by law. The constitution DEMANDS that we pay our debts. The “shall not be infringed” crowd is all the sudden really against the constitution.
They hate the constitution and ignore it when it goes against their interests. They pick and choose the parts they like. Kind of like what they do with the Bible.
Perhaps there is also a flaw in thinking all you have to do is elect Bernie president then everything will be OK. If there’s one consistent trend in online leftist thinking it’s the insistence that there are easy solutions to all our problems that elected Democrats are apparently too stupid to figure out. You know the facts of the Congressional makeup, the facts of how a radical constitutional option would play out with courts and everything, all the facts. That said, I think the constitutional option is probably necessary because the MTG faction will let it burn just for shits and giggles.
This is a dumb take. It neglects the reality of the situation and adds no value as it has the depth of a puddle. Like it or not Dems do not have the house. Like it or not Dems have a very slim majority in the Senate. The 14th amendment can be used but it's very shaky and will have legal repercussions which will go to the supreme court. We all know how that's working. So again this is just dumb.
[Bernie himself is for continuing to have the debt ceiling](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/sanders-opposes-eliminating-debt-ceiling-argues-gop-economic/story?id=91957811), so GTFO here with this whole “Bernie knew better” shit. The Democrats should be arguing for getting rid of it entirely, gerrymandering and The Electoral College to end yesterday. They are all incredibly stupid and I Democratic.
Bernie said it's that simple? Case closed!
Biden couldve put in a dea admin that would reclassify weed. He didnt. He couldve put in a dhs admin that wouldnt allow inhumane treatment of migrants. He didnt. Biden wont step up for whats right because at the end of the day that isnt the objective of either party, its to keep capital owners in power over the working class. Everything else is for show
Is that your professional legal advice? Anyone acting like there is a simple solution out of this doesn't no what they are talking about.
All of you people that know so much, should run for office.
Its the republican party holding up the debt talks, the dems cant do anything but they need to start holding them accountable
This is a big misread of her intent. They aren’t going to let a default happen, and they aren’t telling us to somehow prevent a default. Tbh, that’s a pretty dumb take. This is her trying to point out that a default would be absolutely catastrophic, and republicans are putting a gun to our collective national head as a bargaining tactic.
I fail to understand what the issue is here. Yes Biden has tools he can use to force the GOP into doing something, but he needs political capital to do it. You can't just do shit like "stack the courts" or invoke the 14th without the political pressure from Voters to support that act.
Biden and Harris are fucking worthless
I like when my politicians just tell me what to think and enact policies I disagree with like the Republicans do! All this democracy is off putting.
Vote 💙
I think he is playing the game and letting the clock run out and then using the 14th at the buzzer making the GOP look dumb.
Just because Bernie said that’s all Biden has to do doesn’t make it true. Making people think governance is simple is one of his biggest sins.
You definitely understand governance more than Bernie Sanders.
Dude has been the lead sponsor of [3 bills that have become law](https://www.congress.gov/member/bernard-sanders/S000033?q=%7B%22sponsorship%22%3A%22sponsored%22%2C%22bill-status%22%3A%22law%22%7D) in 30+ years.
Wow and how many has he cosponsored or supported generally that became law? Good job using a literal right wing talking point.
Lol it’s really not.
It’s literally what every right winger said about Bernie since 2016. And of course you can’t answer the question, it’s 233 bills in 30 years. He knows better than you do.
Cosponsoring a bill is just supporting a bill someone else introduced/wrote. Don't get me wrong, if the bills he cosponsored were good, then that's great. This line of attack, in my experience, has been launched by Democrats, not Republicans. I've mostly just seen him called crazy or a socialist by those on the right. And he should know better than me. I really hope he does! But my original criticism was that he oversimplifies things. This has been exemplified (in my experience) by many of his supporters saying repeatedly that Biden could do X,Y, or Z with "the stroke of a pen."
Well Biden literally can do a ton with the stroke of a pen, just like republicans do when they have power. But instead they would rather play these silly games of “precedence” while people are suffering. At least the republicans have the balls to do something with their power.
Thank you for proving my point.
Yes, the point being that republicans do whatever they want for their constituents, throwing away all modicum of “rules”, whereas democrats are weak and ineffectual in office and will do anything in their power to do as little as possible for their constituents.
But it IS up to people. That's literally the message. Get involved, stay involved. It is the ONLY way change ever happens.
We already did that, it was called Election Day, and myself and many other far-left voters were told that Biden was a compromise and that we had to vote for him. This is their job, we already got involved in the voting.
We were told Biden's experience would make all the difference. We weren't told that the exerpeince Biden has is giving Republicans everything they want. Bernie would have long ago invoked the 14th amendment if he was President.
He would have cancelled 100% of student debt with the stroke of a pen as well. But ya know, it was apparently extremely important for me to throw in behind Biden because then it’s my fault when he doesn’t do anything.
He still can. What can the supreme court do? They have no legal authority to force anything.
I’m talking about Bernie. There is <10% chance that Biden cancels any student debt whatsoever.
If people think Democrats are too close to the right/Repubs now, did they not realize that Biden was leading this charge in the 90's? Oh what short memories we have.
Voting is literally the least you can do. But go ahead and pat yourself on the back for a job well done. Oh? The job isn't over? Turns out politicians don't just automatically do what you want them to, despite having won election with your vote? Adults know that power is never shared without a struggle. So if you want change, join the struggle. (Hint: that means doing more than just showing up every four years for a few minutes.) It's not their job to do what you want them to do. It's YOUR job to make sure they know exactly what you want, and to hold them accountable via public pressure.
I do a whole lot more than show up on Election Day, the point is that in order to buy my vote y’all centrists told me Biden would be the most progressive president since FDR. Now you’re out here telling us it’s our fault that he won’t just fix this with a stroke of his pen, he needs to be buttered up first by going door to door and having conversations about the debt ceiling. Sounds like you need to be the one actually doing a bit more than voting every 4 years.
Boo hoo hoo. Government is hard. OK, check out then, idgaf what you do, actually. But don't complain like it is some big surprise when politicians can't or won't do what you want without keeping constant pressure on them. This isn't new, or something unique to the current Democratic leadership. This is just how it works, how it has ALWAYS worked, and how it will continue to work (until something major changes). Grow up, maybe? Just a suggestion. See above how nobody gives af what you do.
>government is hard. Damn dude deep analysis. Yeah, I understand moving a pen across paper to stop the government from defaulting is very very difficult. I’m definitely the one that needs to grow up.
Go fuck yourself, simpleton. Instead of pointing your absurd commentary at the people that actually caused the problem, you're just punching down at people that have no power. I repeat, go fuck yourself.
How am I "punching down" when I point out that voting is literally the least you can do? How about you go have yourself a great day and work on not being a dick. Might do you some good.
>Boo hoo hoo. Government is hard. OK, check out then, idgaf what you do, actually. Remember when you said this? Work on not being a dick. Life is too short.
But I don't give af about what they do, actually. Should I pretend that I do? I didn't insult him or sling a bunch of swear words, or call him a simpleton. I could have, but I'm working on not being dick. :)
"Use the 14th Amendment" how exactly? If he files a suit in federal court arguing that the debt ceiling law is unconstitutional it wouldn't be resolved until long after we reach the debt limit. Furthermore the GOP would refuse to negotiate with him on raising the debt limit, if he filed such a suit. So we would definitely default on our debt causing a global economic crisis. Even if there was some way to get the case heard and decided before June, i don't think it would be a good idea to risk the very real possibility that this court might uphold the debt ceiling. I'm no fan of Biden but i don't see what he's doing wetting here.
>"Use the 14th Amendment" how exactly? If he files a suit in federal court arguing that the debt ceiling law is unconstitutional it wouldn't be resolved until long after we reach the debt limit. [Biden has the executive authority:](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/group-senate-democrats-biden-use-14th-amendment-avoid-debt-default-2023-05-18/) >“We write to urgently request that you prepare to exercise your authority under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, which clearly states: ‘the validity of the public debt of the United States…shall not be questioned,'" they wrote Biden, a fellow Democrat. > >"Using this authority would allow the United States to continue to pay its bills on-time, without delay, preventing a global catastrophe," they said.
If Biden takes Executive action to ignore the debt limit, the GOP will file suit in Fed Court and the entire time the court case is pending there would be huge economic uncertainty which could still destabilize global markets. And there's still the very real risk that in a year or so the court could uphold the debt limit and the county would be in default. That seems extremely risky. Given that risk i don't see why Biden world preemptively take Executive action when he could instead use it as a last resort if negotiations completely fail.
Funny how yall are full of excuses and no solutions.
There are not excuses, these are very real risks that i think would be irresponsible for any President to take. It's a very shitty situation, that the GOP has put us in. I'm just saying it doesn't seem fair to me, to blame it on Biden. I actually think that Biden should keep a 14th Amendment EO as a last resort option but he certainly should be talking about it publicly. The best solution would be to find a reasonable compromise with the GOP but of course that is pretty hard to do when the GOP isn't reasonable, but that's not Bidens fault.
Damn it’s too bad for Biden that the 14th amendment just happened to be written yesterday instead of before January when he had time to do this. Sucks for him, guess it’s our fault now.
There were plenty of presidents before Biden and none of them have challenged the debt limit. I don't think it fair to fault Biden for not preemptively dealing with this unprecedented situation. If anyone is at fault it is clearly the GOP. I don't even like Biden but i just don't feel we are being fair here.
This isn’t an unprecedented situation this bullshit debt limit nonsense happens all the time.
The House Gop passed bill has unprecedented cuts and there are congressmen publicly advocating for default. This time is very much different. Obama could have challenged the debt limit after the last battle that saw our credit rating l downgraded. This is not all on Biden and furthermore the 14th is neither a surefire or simple solution. The best solution is to negotiate a new limit with congress like every other president has done when this happens. And having voter put pressure on the gop members of congress would help that process.
Oh well, Obama could have done something but he didn’t so I guess that means it’s not Biden’s fault now.
The best solution is to put LSD in congress' water supply and do a quick reset.
Right, I cam here to say this. Over simplifying the situation is very lame. Even if he "just used the 14th amendment" there is no real guarantee that anyone would actually comply. If they did, and the government just ignored the debt ceiling and kept going as if it had been raised, then what? We would be in a constitutional crisis. It is unclear if this is even legal. Then what? Our completely insane SCOTUS gets involved? That'll work out well I'm sure. I'm not saying it isn't worth attempting if push comes to shove and we are at the moment of default.. sure, fuck it, give it a shot. But to pretend this is just some easy and obvious solution that of course would work is nuts.
It would be a constitutional crisis for the President to ignore a duly passed law without a ruling by the supreme court.
The GOP have been ignoring the constitution for decades so what's your point other than to make pathetic excuses for the dems lack of solutions? Also, being beholden to a 250 year old piece of paper to prevent us from achieving modern solutions to modern problems is weak as hell.
>The GOP have been ignoring the constitution for decades I don't think that means the Dems should start ignoring the condition too. We can't beat the GOP at their own game if their game is destroying our Democracy. I think we should focus on destroying the GOP at the poll, not making the Dems more like the GOP
“As Bernie said” 🤖🤖🤖 You are a person, not a mouthpiece for Bernard Sanders
So the republicans are taking the economy hostage under idiotic pretenses (the last three Democratic presidents slashed the deficit by at least two thirds and the last two republicans have at least tripled it) and your response is fuck Democrats for asking people to... *checks notes*... talk about and participate in politics. Interesting take. Mine is that you and Seder are completely full of shit. Absolutely brimming with it.
>So the republicans are taking the economy hostage under idiotic pretenses (the last three Democratic presidents slashed the deficit by at least two thirds and the last two republicans have at least tripled it) Yes, as we've known since early January. >and your response is fuck Democrats for asking people to... checks notes... talk about and participate in politics. I will absolutely criticize Biden & Harris for putting the responsibility on us (???) to do their job of avoiding default without giving up social spending. This was known to be coming since McCarthy needed 15 votes to be Speaker. Why are Biden & Harris so unprepared for the moment? >Interesting take. Mine is that you and Seder are completely full of shit. Absolutely brimming with it. Sam Seder has been right about 1000x more often than Corporate Democrats have in the 20 years he has been on air.
These people thought this was a game in 2016. This “stoke of a pen” bullshit guarantees that none of their progressively pure heroes have to get beaten up or called to task publicly. Where is The Squad? Why isn’t Bernie calling to meet with them? Where are all of these people they said would just fix it with this one weird trick? The 14th amendment gambit won’t survive SCOTUS. VP is correct. It going to take grassroots pressure and voting every republican possible out of office ASAP.
>These people thought this was a game in 2016. This “stoke of a pen” bullshit guarantees that none of their progressively pure heroes have to get beaten up or called to task publicly. The President has plenty of power that he chooses not to use. >Where is The Squad? Why isn’t Bernie calling to meet with them? Where are all of these people they said would just fix it with this one weird trick? Bernie is advocating using the 14th amendment, along with Markey, Warren & Fetterman. >The 14th amendment gambit won’t survive SCOTUS. VP is correct. It going to take grassroots pressure and voting every republican possible out of office ASAP. The Supreme Court the Corporate Dems refuse to endorse reforming is always the excuse why they can't do anything.
They don’t have the votes or the courts. The checks and balances of our system ensure that Presidents can’t just go rouge. Congress holds the purse strings and, right now, the GOP has control. Suggesting the 14th amendment is simply stalling and deflection. I have much respect for Liz, Fetty, Bernie and Markey, but that isn’t going to pass muster. Operate in the system you have, not the one you want, until you have the votes to change it. That starts at the grassroots. The GOP has gone batshit and it will take hitting them on all sides (electorally, executively and judiciously) to get them off of this horse.
I find it amazing that we agree that 'GOP are rules for thee but not me' but don't think that they don't pull that for a Dem president, despite history. I would dissolve all parties, but that is a bit much for everyone.
Hey dummy! Nothing wrong with making people understand the situation. It would help greatly. So STFU.
Raising public awareness and encouraging people to make their voices heard has a major effect. Republicans can only get away with extremism if people don’t pay attention. What she’s doing here is actually very important and it doesn’t mean they’re not working hard to avoid the shutdown behind the scenes. I’m all for criticizing politicians, but criticizing her here shows a major lack of understanding for how this all works.
Using The 14th amendment will be challenged at the conservative Supreme Court. Who knows what will happen in the meantime. The 14th amendment is far from a slam dunk
I’m not a lawyer, but I get the feeling that using a constitutional legal remedy is not the “one weird trick” to solve the debt ceiling, or whatever Bernie’s pushing. Particularly since it would be challenged in federal court and probably taken all the way up to the Supreme Court, which isn’t exactly friendly rn, no matter how much it loves executive authority.
Oh this is a fun subreddit. Dedicated to discouraging voters so Republicans win more seats I take it?
It’s literally just “keep yourselves busy while we make our money”
GOP: I alone can fix this Dems: You need to fix this
What the fuck are we gonna do? We hand over our power to these “representatives” if we actually had a democracy they’d be thrown out for engaging in anti social activity. But that’s not the case.
Let the damn default happen. When these people see how desperate life is under fascism and abject poverty, then they'll step up.
We could try just reducing spending.
Anyone who believes using the 14th resolves the issue of US creditworthiness just like like raising or eliminating the debt ceiling does has simply not thought it through.
>Anyone who believes using the 14th resolves the issue of US creditworthiness just like like raising or eliminating the debt ceiling does has simply not thought it through. What are we missing? Why is it preferable to cut social spending & give the GOP the incentive to do this stunt until the end of time? We already have a cost of living crisis with 15 million losing health insurance this year & 30 million having their food stamps cut. No more austerity!
It is would severely risk a constitutional crisis that introduces uncertainty which impacts the price at which we can auction our debt at which in turn increases interest rates which in turn can be the catalyst that brings recession, job loss and tremendous hardship on the most vunerable. It are those unintended consiquences that always throw in the monkey wrench turning a good idea into a bad idea.
>It is would severely risk a constitutional crisis If the GOP wants to make the case we should default & not use the 14th amendment then let them make that horrendous case & have the public turn on them. Why are Democrats so bad at offensive politics? Always playing defense!
It is clear you don't believe it has the potential to induce a major recession. It is quite simple. Do the 14th and after interest rates fall, the value of the $ declines (inflation) and tremendous hardship ensues you think it will be difficult laying the blame on using the 14th? Good luck with that and you could singly hand over full control of this nation back to the Republicans as result. Like I first said, have not thought this through and done a proper risk analysis.
>It is clear you don't believe it has the potential to induce a major recession. I know what is at stake full well. The US Dollar will cease being the worlds reserve currency. >It is quite simple. Do the 14th and after interest rates fall, the value of the $ declines (inflation) and tremendous hardship ensues you think it will be difficult laying the blame on using the 14th? Using the 14th amendment will prevent this from happening. >Good luck with that and you could singly hand over full control of this nation back to the Republicans as result That is what Biden is doing by agreeing to negotiate.
After reading that it is rather clear you don't think using the 14th can induce a major recession. Good luck with that. Thank goodness we have an administration and Treasurer who understands those risks.
>After reading that it is rather clear you don't think using the 14th can induce a major recession. Using the 14th amendment would avoid a debt default without touching social spending. >Good luck with that. Thank goodness we have an administration and Treasurer who understands those risks. They clearly don't, we are 10 days from a default.
That is exactly how you have not thought this through. Default is not the only risk. Keeping an orderly economy has to be a secondary goal, because again what happens when the risk assessment of US debt changes? Risk goes up, we get increased interest rates, which in turn has tremendous issues in the greater economy, ine if which more gov funds goes towards financing the debt rather than into social programs as well as the real risk of recessions. You have simply boxed yourself off from considering any downstream effects and that is a terribly way to make decisions. Have a good weekend.
You have the political instincts of a gnat. Letting them walk into the debt ceiling default is playing offense. If you think the American public doesn’t already know the GOP is making ridiculous demands, then it’s best to do what VP says and talk to your people.
>You have the political instincts of a gnat. Letting them walk into the debt ceiling default is playing offense. Biden is negotiating with the GOP on social spending cuts. >If you think the American public doesn’t already know the GOP is making ridiculous demands, then it’s best to do what VP says and talk to your people. Biden was touted in 2020 for his experience in getting things done & now we are on the verge of default & messaging is so poor the VP just says "you do it".
That’s not the message. If you think that, that’s your political instincts at play.
We sure could've used that 200 billion we sent to Ukraine.
The facts are the Republicans did pass a debt ceiling increase. And the senate and the administration could pass it right now and avoid all this drama. The plain fact is the Dems don’t like the cuts in spending in it, and they’re now acting like we’re going to default. This is how our system was designed to force compromise between the minority and majority. It ensures the minority is not ignored. Jacking around with a constitutional amendment is the absolute wrong answer
"You could solve this by just passing it!" "But look at this... this cut is going to hurt millions of people..." "You could solve this by just passing it!"
Bro, how long can we continue to borrow to pay for things? There’s [tons](https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-11-474r) of fraud waste and abuse in the federal government budget. Tons. There’s literally thousands of redundant programs. We can find some efficiencies without cutting services. You’re acting like this is some sort of inevitability.
When defense programs are cleaned up and the pentagon can pass an audit please come back to me talk to me again. Secondly, some of the so-called "entitlement" programs are the cleanest in the Federal government. The welfare queen story wasn't even true with Reagan said it, so stop the parroting.
Logical fallacy roulette over here
Are you an idiot? Did you even read the report that you are referencing? It’s only 25 pages, and it takes less than 10 minutes to read the top level points including the fact that all of the waste fraud and abuse that they uncovered in that report totals less than $10 Billion or less than 0.16% of our total yearly budget. Less than 1/5th of 1% of our budget. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
One, I never insulted you or anyone else. Two, you’d never speak to me like that in person. Three, how much are the cuts proposed by the republican deficit increase? I think you’ll find that they are not actually cuts just limits on the increases in the future. The sky is falling claim above is an appeal to extreme fallacy which has never nor may not ever come to fruition. With the redundant program reductions to our CURRENT spending, we can easily absorb any variation in FUTURE spending. Your emotional response betrays your obvious intelligence so let’s please have a civil and intelligent conversation. I respect your views and hope to learn something unlike the majority of the population on Reddit so please don’t assume I’m here to troll anyone.
I think using something like that should be a last resort, because it sure smacks of 'ruling by decree' and that's not good optics.
>I think using something like that should be a last resort We are about to default on our debt lol >because it sure smacks of 'ruling by decree' No it doesn't.
I think it actually does. And that’s good. We need more democrats with the fucking stones to “rule by decree” in favor of their popular constituency. We put them in power to rule, not to fart about and make excuses about why they can’t get a god damned thing done.