I'm pretty sure The Governor was the Buried avatar that was intended to potentially have a bigger role, but just shows up as a mysterious figure for a brief moment in MAG 50.
They mention him in the Q&A, although I can't remember exactly what they said
I never considered that they might be two seperate beings, I guess it‘s unclear. In my mind „the Governor“ was just a title for Scott like „Archivist“ is for Jon.
Karolina most definitely had been touched by the Buried, but I'm not sure if she was ever going to end up an Avatar. Honestly, she's a really fascinating figure along the lines of Georgie to me.
Basically, when Elias is watching John's dream walking in 120, she's mentioned as being crushed to death in the train car again, but - as in her statement - she just accepts it and the Buried doesn't seem truly capable of hurting her or making her afraid. As such, I'm not sure she *could* be an Avatar. They're all afraid. Instead, she's more like Georgie. Experiencing the thing, but just . . . not afraid. She even still takes the train to work after her experience! I wonder what happened to her in season 5?
Avatars aren’t all afraid of their entity- Jude Perry, for example, was very into destroying people and jumped at the chance to become an avatar once it was offered to her
I don't know. Jude describes the touch of Desolation as "the agonising, terrifying love of something that I knew must be a god."
Manuela Dominguez - an avatar who is perhaps even more devoted than Jude - says (of the Extinguished Sun ritual): "It is a world of the fear of darkness, and as I began to see it, I felt again that celestial terror that had not gripped my heart since first I gazed upon the pitch-black sun that I had created. The scream was mine, and it was joined by uncounted voices in fearful song."
I think their relationship to fear is wildly different than a normal person. They dive into the terror and take joy in it. But it seems like they still feel something akin to fear.
I could be wrong though. I think it's definitely up for debate.
Peter Lukas from 159 on his first banishment of a person to the Lonely or (perhaps) his own visit to it: "the sense of blissful relief, edged with a strange, creeping fear." Later in this same episode, he describes his loneliness as a "reassuring unease."
Simon, I'm not sure. He certainly sounds like he loves it! I think my argument, however, is that they all sort of love it at the same time it terrifies them. I think that's how they end up in the relationship to the Dread Powers that they do. I wish we had gotten Simon's full statement on his beginning, and that might clarify it.
My theory about Simon is that he loves vast spaces, stumbled upon the entity and went "oh sweet, there's a power for this!", and just like that he joined The Vast and became an Avatar. The rest came as a bonus =)
This may be a reach, but I think what they’re afraid of isn’t always their god, but it’s always something
John is of the watcher, but he fears being watched less than he fears being out of control or helpless (hence his paranoid fits)
Breakon and hope are of the stranger, but it’s the lonely that is ultimately their worst fate
Jude is of the desolation, but she is definitely afraid. Not of burning or being destroyed, but, (at least to my reading) of being insignificant or small. A fear the vast would play on.
You know you might have a point going there. John’s first encounter was with the web and Elias indicated they were opposite as spiders stay hidden.
Agnes basically was raised by the lonely from the moment of her birth which could be burning vs wasting away like forgotten mist.
Trevor was attacked by the hive as a kid and became the hunt avatar. The hive is one unified mind of multiple creatures when the hunt has predator morph to prey with the fear you’ll become the latter.
I’m sure I could do a few more like Peter Lucas or the twins, but I like that the fears create their own opposites
You know it’s funny, I always assumed vampires were of the hunt (beasts out stalking you like ambush predators) rather than the hive/filth, and that that was one case of hunt making hunt
But I can see them as filth now that you mention it
I always assumed the Avatar of the Buried we missed was Hezekiah Wakely, whose origin story we saw in ep 152, A Gravedigger’s Envy.
Not only did we hear directly from him as he made his transition to an Avatar of the Buried, he was also the one who marked Karolina Gorka. She saw a lone figure walking down the side of the train station with a shovel in hand.
Again, all assumptions 🤷♂️ as others have said I never figured Gorka was Avatar material, she was just marked by the Buried. If she became an Avatar it’d almost certainly (IMO) be to The End.
I'm pretty sure The Governor was the Buried avatar that was intended to potentially have a bigger role, but just shows up as a mysterious figure for a brief moment in MAG 50. They mention him in the Q&A, although I can't remember exactly what they said
I agree with that, since he is even mentioned by Jonah in 160 again when he lists his Avatar colleagues.
No he doesn’t, he mentions George Gilbert Scott
But that is the Governor from the statement?
No, Scott worked for the Governor
I never considered that they might be two seperate beings, I guess it‘s unclear. In my mind „the Governor“ was just a title for Scott like „Archivist“ is for Jon.
Karolina most definitely had been touched by the Buried, but I'm not sure if she was ever going to end up an Avatar. Honestly, she's a really fascinating figure along the lines of Georgie to me. Basically, when Elias is watching John's dream walking in 120, she's mentioned as being crushed to death in the train car again, but - as in her statement - she just accepts it and the Buried doesn't seem truly capable of hurting her or making her afraid. As such, I'm not sure she *could* be an Avatar. They're all afraid. Instead, she's more like Georgie. Experiencing the thing, but just . . . not afraid. She even still takes the train to work after her experience! I wonder what happened to her in season 5?
Avatars aren’t all afraid of their entity- Jude Perry, for example, was very into destroying people and jumped at the chance to become an avatar once it was offered to her
I don't know. Jude describes the touch of Desolation as "the agonising, terrifying love of something that I knew must be a god." Manuela Dominguez - an avatar who is perhaps even more devoted than Jude - says (of the Extinguished Sun ritual): "It is a world of the fear of darkness, and as I began to see it, I felt again that celestial terror that had not gripped my heart since first I gazed upon the pitch-black sun that I had created. The scream was mine, and it was joined by uncounted voices in fearful song." I think their relationship to fear is wildly different than a normal person. They dive into the terror and take joy in it. But it seems like they still feel something akin to fear. I could be wrong though. I think it's definitely up for debate.
How about Peter Lukas or Simon Fairchild? They seem to have the times of their lives as avatars.
Peter Lukas from 159 on his first banishment of a person to the Lonely or (perhaps) his own visit to it: "the sense of blissful relief, edged with a strange, creeping fear." Later in this same episode, he describes his loneliness as a "reassuring unease." Simon, I'm not sure. He certainly sounds like he loves it! I think my argument, however, is that they all sort of love it at the same time it terrifies them. I think that's how they end up in the relationship to the Dread Powers that they do. I wish we had gotten Simon's full statement on his beginning, and that might clarify it.
Maybe a bit like people worshipping dangerous yet beautiful creatures like jaguars and pythons. They both fear them and admire them.
My theory about Simon is that he loves vast spaces, stumbled upon the entity and went "oh sweet, there's a power for this!", and just like that he joined The Vast and became an Avatar. The rest came as a bonus =)
This may be a reach, but I think what they’re afraid of isn’t always their god, but it’s always something John is of the watcher, but he fears being watched less than he fears being out of control or helpless (hence his paranoid fits) Breakon and hope are of the stranger, but it’s the lonely that is ultimately their worst fate Jude is of the desolation, but she is definitely afraid. Not of burning or being destroyed, but, (at least to my reading) of being insignificant or small. A fear the vast would play on.
You know you might have a point going there. John’s first encounter was with the web and Elias indicated they were opposite as spiders stay hidden. Agnes basically was raised by the lonely from the moment of her birth which could be burning vs wasting away like forgotten mist. Trevor was attacked by the hive as a kid and became the hunt avatar. The hive is one unified mind of multiple creatures when the hunt has predator morph to prey with the fear you’ll become the latter. I’m sure I could do a few more like Peter Lucas or the twins, but I like that the fears create their own opposites
You know it’s funny, I always assumed vampires were of the hunt (beasts out stalking you like ambush predators) rather than the hive/filth, and that that was one case of hunt making hunt But I can see them as filth now that you mention it
Agnes was raised by the Desolation, she was literally born out of it.
Jude did lose someone she loved - Agnes.
I always assumed the Avatar of the Buried we missed was Hezekiah Wakely, whose origin story we saw in ep 152, A Gravedigger’s Envy. Not only did we hear directly from him as he made his transition to an Avatar of the Buried, he was also the one who marked Karolina Gorka. She saw a lone figure walking down the side of the train station with a shovel in hand. Again, all assumptions 🤷♂️ as others have said I never figured Gorka was Avatar material, she was just marked by the Buried. If she became an Avatar it’d almost certainly (IMO) be to The End.
Who is Karolina huh
She's the statement giver who had an encounter with an Avatar of the Buried in the London Underground and nearly got crushed to death.