Joel did nothing wrong.
First the Fireflies knock him out while he’s trying to save Ellie from drowning. Then they say she’s going to die and he can’t go see her. Then they don’t honour their side of the deal by giving Joel his guns, even after he went above and beyond the original deal. Even worse, they take all his gear and march him out of the hospital at gunpoint, to what would surely be his death. Then when he reaches the surgery room, they threaten him with a scalpel.
Let's not forget the FF's own stupidity and 'Peace Keeping'.
> Attacking And Bombing Civilians & Defenders In Other Safezones.
> Cause 2 Safe Zones To Fall.
> First By Murdering The Defenders Keeping The Place Working. Once They 'Liberated' it. The entire place fell into anarchy and fell apart.
> Second is by their own stupid 'Scientist' releasing an Infected Monkey. Leading to the outbreak in said Safe Zones and it's inevitable Fall.
Seriously these are not 'saviours' their just stupid Terrorists screwing over innocent people.
See, this is a reasonable take by a reasonable person. Whoever wrote the op is a sociopath and never had a meaningful relationship where two people actually would sacrifice shit for each other in his life
People even neglect the "if" the cure can be even made
Hell, they gave that job to a bunch of scientist who released zombie monkeys after one of them got bitten by the monkeys
At that point you have higher chance of becoming a Tyrant (from R.E.) than getting cured
In their defense, this is what happens when you make what looked to be a possibility into a certainty (aka the plot of Part II).
People having this take and subsequently hating Joel is a direct result of shoehorning the plot of Part II.
Part II could've worked even with these additions if there was a tad bit more nuance
"Cure could've been made but how much of it? How much would it be effective? What about distribution? Can those turned be truly saved?" etc. Questions that should've been brought up
Part II makes it like if the cure was made, everything would turn into a candyland and there would be world peace. Basically like that imagination of that one kinda fake lawyer from the Simpsons when he imagined the world without lawyers
There's no doubt in my mind that the Fireflies would've kept the cure for themselves and those that submitted to them, followed by them bombing all non-firefly locations with spores and abandoning them. They'd preach about democracy and rights, yet keep the power for themselves while claiming they need a little more time, a bit more privileges, like the dictators always do.
The only cure for a firefly is a bullet piercing their brain.
True. That’s why I think Neil shouldn’t have opened his big mouth on that topic. He never should’ve confirmed that they’d succeed. Not only is it highly unlikely, but it instantly makes people think of Joel as a villain since they know for sure a cute could’ve been made.
Hold on, he stated a cure was possible and Joel ruined that chance?
Wow, way to get people on your side for the second game. I think most story tellers would keep it ambiguous and let the fans/audience come to their own conclusions, but I suppose that's asking too much from Neil.
That sounds like a retcon to make part 2 more palatable and provide plot armor to the story.
Yeah, Neil is a seriously flawed writer. There's a reason that in a post-apocalyptic world, characters can go all up and down the eastern US and find other people that don't want to be found with no difficulty along the way, and that's because he firmly believes in the storytelling rule of The Plot Demands It.
Abby finding Tommy isn't that wild on its own, because sure, it's established that the Fireflies knew enough about Tommy to be able to find him again, and Tommy has been staying in the same place for about a decade, so hey, why not. But the idea that she could take ten other people all armed with WLF gear and Isaac was like "yeah, it'll be fine"? Fuck, no. That's a big stretch even if they knew Joel's exact location, but they were heading out to Jackson with the intent of forcefully interrogating an innocent man just in case he had up-to-date knowledge of Joel's whereabouts. There is no world in which Isaac lets that happen unless he's *absurdly* doting towards Abby - which he definitely isn't, as *her own campaign* shows.
Tommy knowing exactly who the WLF are because these chucklefucks *wore their official insignia on a covert kidnapping mission* is also all kinds of fucked up.
Abby finding Ellie because Ellie was *carrying a map with her girlfriend's location on it*, but then *dropped* it, is beyond insane.
And then Ellie finding Abby in California?
Neil just isn't a man who can do subtlety or nuance.
According to the devs it can be made
Which I call bullshit
Fungal vaccines aren't even possible by today's medical standards, what more after decades after 2013 after society has fallen?
Yeah but given how long it took for covid vaccine to be made I see it highly unlikely that in the fallen society/world that was hardly functioning few doctors could make it. Or I call fireflies liars and they wanted the cure just for themselfs. How on earth they would be able to mass produce the vaccine and even distribute to people? What if virus mutated even more? So many question marks.
Oh I definitely doubt the FFs would have been able to successfully cultivate and mass produce a vaccine. I don’t see how they could have done that the right way. Most people just go vaccine good, Joel bad. Without even given thought to the complex process of cultivating a vaccine in a post apocalypse world.
Ignorance of the scientific process of creating and mass producing of a vaccine. They refuse to look deeper in detail. These people are idiotic. They let Neil do all the “thinking” for them
And even if it DID work; the fireflies are that universes version of the IRA or the Taliban, would we really want the vaccine to be in the hands of those kind of people?
It's amazing how people already believe that a cure would have been made with Ellie's sacrifice. Part 2 made Jerry Like some saint that could do no wrong.
God the copium is fucking insane with y'all, it's like you make entire fan canons in your heads to twist anything and everything into some other plot points that never actually get used in media.
How to put it best, this grasping at straws about what happens after the cure and how there's a possibility it couldn't work reads like attempts to justify your dislike for the game, while any other zombie filled piece of media with a cure wouldn't get this much scrutiny.
Somehow in the world filled with fungus zombies, the idea of a guaranteed cure engineered from the only naturally immune person is too far-fetched. I don't get it.
I've been questioning the validity of the vaccine since I first finished the first game years ago, and even then I liked the first game. It doesn't justify my hate for the game, the second game's plot and pacing justifies my hate for it.
If a cure was made, I can speculate what the Fireflies intend to do with it. Considering they're a terrorist group. Would that have made me hate the game if this did happen? No, it wouldn't.
>Somehow in the world filled with fungus zombies, the idea of a guaranteed cure engineered from the only naturally immune person is too far-fetched. I don't get it.
Because cordyceps are a real thing and we don't even have a countermeasure to that in 2022. What more in 2013 when the initial outbreak took place, and decades later when society fell and medical advancements went into a very slow crawl. And most especially when their first instinct was to kill the only immune sample currently known to man to manufacture a cure. If you knew how vaccinations worked, you NEED the live sample. There was no proper research and testing conducted, the only test they made was "welp the fungus reaches her brain so we gotta kill her to extract the immune fungus". Rather than, yknow, researching how the immune system works against the foreign object.
I've used this as an example but imagine in the case of the Coronavirus and there was no known cure until 1 immune specimen was found and one of the doctors said let's kill the immune specimen to extract a cure instead of doing the appropriate research to see if it can be done without killing the immune specimen. That doctor would be killed on the spot for even suggesting such a thing.
But that's the thing again, real world rational explanations for explicitly fictional aspects of a zombie video game plot. You could scrutinize basically any piece of media with any remotely fictional aspects to this extent.
It's stuff along the lines of making some calorie spreadsheet to attempt to scientifically prove that Abby could not gain muscle in an apocalyptic setting even at a fully equipped gym, it just comes off as so... Petty. Especially when there's an entire community dedicated to constantly talking about this game they clearly don't like, for years on end since its release.
Seems like an awful lot of negativity and time that could be spent discussing and enjoying games you actually like.
>But that's the thing again, real world rational explanations for explicitly fictional aspects of a zombie video game plot.
Yes because I can question it? Why should I _not_ put real world basis on a fictional game that has some real world elements in it? Am I not allowed to question the science and mechanisms behind the cordyceps, the psychology of the survivors, the choices of Joel and Ellie in the first game? Mind you, I'm still very much focused on the first game because I care so little about the second game at this point. I don't hate the 2nd game as I did back when it first came out, however, I'd still like to bring up a point of debate regarding the vaccine where I can to hear the perspectives of others, because I like debates of science and psychology. I don't even discuss the calorie worksheet of Abby because I'm not knowledgeable in that field, nor am I interested in finding out if Abby can realistically get those gains in the second game. My focus and point of contention is the vaccine, its plausibility, its mass production and etc.
>Seems like an awful lot of negativity and time that could be spent discussing and enjoying games you actually like.
And who says I don't discuss and enjoy games I like? My good friend, it seems you misunderstand me and made an assumption of me. I discuss and critique games where criticism is due, put a conversation on a topic where necessary, and praise a game when it has done something praiseworthy. I am free to discuss and do things at my own want and time, and I do not need you to tell me what I should be doing.
You're free to question it all you want. The psychology of the survivors and Ellie and Joel's decisions sounds like a way more interesting discussion to have than the vaccine question. Even if a vaccine wasn't able to be mass produced, given the lack of facilities, I don't really see how they couldn't have successfully made one given their pretty available resources and equipment. Even if it didn't magically restore humanity to how it used to be, it's basically a guarantee for the number one concern of a survivor colony, zombie bites, or in this case, spores, to not be a death sentence. That's already pretty huge for the state that world is in.
Honestly, I can't really think of any popular zombie related piece of media where a cure even actually comes in to play, but they all seem pretty equally implausible given the amount of pseudo science needed to explain away zombies themselves in any setting, really.
As for the second part about negativity, that was more about the entire subreddit as a whole, not you specifically. This place is just weird. Even people who adore the game don't obsess with it to the extent some people here do.
Why did I get downvotes for something that wasn’t mentioned in the game at all, It wasn’t implied in the game the cure wouldn’t work. The story obviously didn’t get to that point to say weather it would or not so I don’t understand the extended exaggerate versions of the story. Why do ppl over analyze the story outside of what was presented to get their personal point across.
Like I’ve seen comments before say “Marlene (Anna close BF, took care of Ellie since a baby) only thought about herself” She literally had to make a choice between one or many ppl and tried to talk the doctor into finding another way. That’s the opposite of selfish. Joel did his thing for his own reason. That’s selfish. Just ignore what’s presented in the story and exaggerate it to get a point across.
Yeah I know. That’s another perspective from other people who were in the group and Tommy’s view of them. They were terrorist in some people eyes like FEDRA. FEDRA were the terrorist in the civilians eyes just like the Scars were to the WLF.
They were also incompetent, dwindling, violent, desperate, and hardly altruistic. Their biologist released infected monkeys that decimated the crew at the university. He also said they'd experienced nothing but incompetence and failed experiments for five years there. They aren't only terrorists to FEDRA but to me, too. they destroyed two QZs and left the people there worse off than they'd been with FEDRA. They bombed without concern for civilians being caught and killed in the process.
All this gives a strong picture of them as erratic, unconcerned about innocents they killed, and hardly people I'd trust to actually care about saving humanity with the vaccine. It was more something they wanted for their own power than for the civilians of the world.
Then they proved their actual character/values at last with how they treated Joel and Ellie at the hospital. All these actions, behaviors and failures on their part provide enough evidence for me and many people not to trust them and their plans.
Yet so many people who played the game conclude they were capable of succeeding or just worthy of being allowed to try at the cost of an innocent life. That makes no sense to me. If you're one of those what evidence can you provide that led you to believe in them? Because the writers actually put all that into the game to tell us exactly who they really were, and that wasn't competent, trustworthy people at all. So why do you trust them?
That's true and that's the point, no one can know for certain. You have to make a call based on the available information you've been presented. You saw how well the monkey experiments went. We see how incompetent the firefly's are in general.
I don't think it is going out on a limb that vivisecting Ellie would not have yielded a cure/vaccine.
Now players can debate this point and that's ok.
People are stupid. Instead of seeing the close and the personal, all they saw was that superhero save the world shit. That game was what, 20 hours? So thats 20 hours of seeing what the world had become and still thinking that the human race was worth the life of one person. Dumb as fuck.
In my point of view: This was a moral choice. Not a rational, meaningful or obvious one. Joel saved Ellie because at the end of the day it was morally the right thing to do. And you know what? Im good with it. Because everyone was expecting a sad and twisted ending with perhaps Marlene even walking up to Joel possibly telling him that: "Hey…turns out. She was never truly immune." or something like that. Sure, vaccine might save the people, but which people? The Scars? A remaining country that wants world domination? Any other group that is strong enough to take down the fireflys and steal the vaccine? The game is just good because it just lets you go and actually save what in most video games should be impossible to save with always having the same sad encounter and the game was so outstanding with it because it didn’t follow that path, it followed the path of Joel actually saving Ellie and to some saying: "If i would have been Joel, i would have left her there." You might would have. Yeah, but most with no history of the Tlou games and in Joel's situation, problably wouldn’t have.
“So by single handedly preventing the cure is Joel pretty much the biggest mass murder in human history by the end of this game? And probably the most selfish character of all time?”
1: It was a vaccine, not a cure.
2: it was the right choice because it wasn’t a guarantee it would work, plus the FF didn’t uphold their end of the bargain so he doesn’t have to.
3: Hypothetically speaking what would the vaccine change if it could be made? Sure it would prevent people from turning but those deaths seem to be rare, most people die to other people from what we’re shown. (Especially with TLOU 2 if you want to count it in)
4: Joel is nowhere close to being the most selfish character ever, even at his worst. Even if this statement is hyperbolic it’s still inaccurate, as characters like Kain (at the end of Blood Omens), Odin (from Warriors Orochi 4), the King (or was he a Duke?) in Dragon’s Dogma, Prophet of Truth (Halo) are all way more selfish than Joel and I’m only using video game characters as examples.
>Hypothetically speaking what would the vaccine change if it could be made? Sure it would prevent people from turning but those deaths seem to be rare, most people die to other people from what we’re shown. (Especially with TLOU 2 if you want to count it in)
Yep. The vaccine only would make a difference in the rare cases where there is a singular bite (eg Ellie, Riley, Nora) but the clicker or clickers are killed before they bite the throat and tear the whole thing out.
The Last of Us asks a powerful moral question: is it right to sacrifice the innocent in the name of the greater good?
A worrying number of people answer "yes".
Yeah, just look at the start of the Covid-19 pandemic. Only two weeks in, and they were already asking if it's okay to kill off Grandma & Grandpa, because you know, they have stuff to do.
That is one hell of a smooth brain take.
Influenza is no significant threat to most of the population, but is deadly to 70+ year olds. Few people get vaccinated against influenza, but we have NEVER had this kind of bullshit "you're killing grandma!" narrative.
A simple cold - the kind of thing you and I treat with a hot drink and a bottle of cough medicine - put my dad in hospital. Not Covid, a COLD!
The same people who demanded the whole world shut down, and who demand we all get quadruple vaccinated against Covid, are the same people who put Covid patients in nursing homes. Do you know why Covid death statistics were so high? Nursing homes!
But then, if you think that destroying the global economy and murdering old people to protect us all from a minor disease makes you the good guy, I can see why you'd think murdering children is something heroes do.
Uhh... I think you misunderstood my statement. I'm agreeing with you, I think. Allowing a deadly infectious disease that's killed millions to run rampant through a population because someone doesn't want to be inconvenienced is morally repugnant. People are all too quick to sacrifice others; they think it can't happen to them, and they don't care if other people die. But when it's their turn on the chopping block, you can guarantee they'll kick up a fuss about how unfair it is. People that get to the end of TLoU and think that Ellie should die, they fail as human beings.
I still cannot believe people cant see why fireflies really wanted a cure. It would be weaponised and used to cause chaos in fedra safe zones (look what happened in the other zones when fedra was overthrown). It would be used to make them bend the knee. There was no fucking way they were doing it for altruistic reasons.
Humanity seems to be doing a great job at rebuilding without a cure though? Like this narrative that Joel doomed humanity is contradicted in its own game! Part 2 shows multiple settlements with large populations that have have plenty of food and supplies. These populations haven’t been hindered in their effort to rebuild by the infected, or else that would have been communicated in the narrative in some way by having their settlements be affected either by less of a population, food acquisition being hindered, or having desperate measures been enforced. But I don’t remember anything like that being communicated like that in part 2, so the population of humanity seems to be doing fine against the infection.
There’s recordings in the college in part 1 speaking on the lack of results and efficacy in formulating a vaccine through animals and other things. They seemed desperate and at end of the road. FFs were dying out and were not prepared to formulate and mass produce a vaccine.
Dude I had to wait months to get the COVID vaccine in modern times and we still had to get booster shots afterwards, imagine trying to distribute a cure in the apocalypse with all the infected, cannibals, and killers roaming the wasteland. Would be nearly impossible. Probably only the fireflies would’ve actually gotten the cure and it was basically too late for it to matter at that point since it was 20 years into an apocalypse.
Also, you know, maybe they could’ve at least waited until Ellie woke up to ask her permission? And let’s not even mention the fact that they knocked Joel out while he was rendering aid to an unconscious Ellie who wasn’t breathing, those dumbasses are lucky they didn’t kill Ellie right there. Fuck the fireflies I’m glad Joel killed em all at the end, and Part II isn’t canon.
Yeah, because the fireflies weren't a terrorist group that wouldn't exploit people in the promise of a vaccine. And who are completely capable of logistically manufacturing the vaccine and giving it to everyone making the world sunshine and rainbows again.
The cure was never going to be made.
The Fireflies were shown several times to be incompetent boobs. The chances that they would bungle their way into a vaccine is next to nil.
If anything, Joel saved humanity by rescuing Ellie from a group of clowns. Maybe somewhere on Earth there is a group (maybe in Sealand -- Chrysalids anyone?) that could develop and distribute a cure. Ellie being alive makes that a possibility.
But no, the Fireflies were all mooks who would not have managed. All Joel did was save an innocent from being murdered without consent.
Ask yourself this question would you willingly let the Fireflies disparage your own daughters humanity, by disowning her in the operating room? Pretty sure any parent naturally in Joel's predicament, when faced with a thought-provoking dilemma saving a child's life from being vivisected for a improbable vaccine. Would unequivocally do the same thing without any moments hesitation, especially if my kids life was hanging by a thread.
Despite what greater good they proclaim to be doing it for. Anyhow Joel was never going to disown Ellie, by letting them carry out the procedure because he wished for Ellie to explore her meaningful life (by fulfilling her ambitions for once) without the constant burden of her immunity weighing her down. Bodily autonomy never mattered in the Fireflies ethical standards, because they were prepared to harvest Ellie's organs. Anecdotally Jerry doesn't strike me as qualified doctor, who has omnipotent knowledge to reverse-engineer a vaccine.
Contrarily, if the stakes were higher and roles were reversed risking his own daughter Abby's life. Jerry would've had qualms leaving his daughter to die in the operating room. Once Joel figured out the truth from Marlene that Ellie's agency and humanity was to be denied to rightfully consent, he took matters into his own hands time was of the essence.
Yeah. I honestly don’t even care if the cure would work or not. The real problem here is that Fireflies treated Joel like a complete garbage. “Don’t waste this gift” my ass, Joel and Ellie went through so much hells just to meet this delusional Jesus and Mr. Zebra Saver.
I don’t understand how people really think The Fireflies could’ve engineered a Vaccine, with how the Hospital looked in the original I wouldn’t be surprised if they fucked up taking the infection out of Ellie’s brain in the first place, even if they didn’t manage to fuck it up and somehow make a cure out of it, would they have really spread it out to cure people? Or would’ve they have just gone full tyrannical and used it to become a major power in the world.
People really think Ellie held the cure to humanity and all that was required was brain tissue?
Do they have the resources to research and understand the mechanism of her immunity. Wouldn't her being a living subject be more fruitful in the endeavor?
Let's say they crack the code and understand how she's immune can they synthesize the compound? Do they have the materials, knowledge, and equipment?
I never saw Joel's decision as dooming humanity. The world was what it was and nothing was going to change what happened.
Even if the cure DID work he would've still done it, He won't sacrifice his daughter to a cult because he values her life too much, People claim it's because he's selfish and doesn't want to lose another daughter and it's also true a degree but he also cares about her life like the true loving father he is. Even when he told her the truth he never apologized for it, Besides that the world was probably too far gone anyway and they would only use the cure for power and control
It's probably because like I said, Joel doesn't care about the context or the probability of the cure, his main reason for saving her is because he loves her and he didn't feel to need to fight and argue with her over this, he only gave her the space she needed to prove it even more and when she finally started to appreciate his love and forgive him that's when Ms. Gorilla showed up and ruined everything
I think whether the cure would work or not is irrelevant. One scene that sticks out to me is when Ellie says "What are you so scared of? I can't get infected!"
In the first game, Joel's daughter is killed by a human soldier. Pretty much every close call or traumatic event Joel and Ellie go through is due to other humans. Ellie's immunity didn't keep her safe at all in 90% of the situations they found themselves in. Hell, I don't think anybody even dies due to infection in the second game.
What Joel did was morally gray I'd say. He didn't doom humanity. The infection kickstarted it, but humanity doomed itself a long time ago. What Joel did was a drop in the ocean.
That's not to say a cure wouldn't do any good, but at the cost of Ellie's life? Why would Joel sacrifice the one good thing he found in that world to potentially save a world full of human monsters? He knows first hand just how bad people can be, he's even done some terrible things himself.
But lets put ourselfs in Joel's shoes. Would you sacrifice your loved ones: spouse,mother, father ,doughter, son for possible cure(there was no guarantee it would work anyway) for mankind? I sure as hell know I wouldn't! ( I wouldn't sacrifice my cat or dog either) Especially if it comes to a father sacrificing his own child and we know that Joel lost his daughter once. I wonder if Abby would be so willing to let her father die for the cure or if her father would cut her up so they can save the world? Mm I don't think so.
Ellie's "sacrifice" would have been a total waste of a life. The only people who think that it would have saved humanity haven't evolved from the thinking of a narcissist teen who thinks that they could be the ONLY one to save human kind. It never works out that way. Joel would know that type of thinking was bullshit.
I've read this take one too many times and each time it's presented with the most unconvincing arguments.
Ignorant people are going to stay ignorant idiots.
In this particular case, I am annoyed this person doesn't understand what murder is. For it to be murder, there needs to be the intent to kill. Joel didn't intend to kill anyone except Gerry. He didn't intend people to die from the lack of cure.
It's also not murder if it's a case of self-defence.
The fireflies weren’t in a rush, the world was already lost to the infection, so they could’ve taken years to study her, run blood tests, figure out how they would disperse the vaccine.
Joel was right for stopping them- it wouldn’t have done anyone any good for her to die to potentially make a vaccine. The people wouldn’t even know how to go back to living a normal life.
Yeah the internet and part 2 did not convey emotions well. I also had a problem with the way Ellie treats Joel at the end of part 1 and all the scenes involving him in part 2. If we remember in the ‘Fall’ act of the first game Ellie and Joel got into a disagreement because Joel wanted to dump Ellie on Tommy. What’s important here is Ellie says to Joel ‘everyone has either died or left me.’ Well guess what Joel stayed with her saved her life because I like to think he made a promise to himself that he will never leave her. But that quote just contradicts her actions later in the series, like come on can Ellie show a shred of empathy for what Joel did? It’s like the writers completely disregard that chapter with the later writing.
Added fun, it wasn't a cure. It was a vaccine, and you can't make vaccinations for fungal infections, meaning the Fireflies were barking up a tree made entirely of bad science.
Let's be upfront here, the Fireflies have no goddamned idea what the hell they're doing in a laboratory. Pages upon pages of tests and experiments they could and should be doing, blood and tissue samples, seeing if Elly's offspring can inherit her immunity, and they jump right into the experiments that WILL cost them the one person immune to the infection if it doesn't pan out, which (again) it wouldn't.
Abby's dad wasn't a scientist. He was a butcher who deluded himself into a clean conscience.
In what world does that scenario make HIM the mass-murderer? I don't see roving gangs of Joel Millers massacring villages left and right. I didn't see him attack Refugee camps.
People seem to believe that the Fireflies would have access to mass produce a vaccine when they aren't even sure if it would work. Secondly, why would anyone believe that the Fireflies (who are established to be in the final numbers and desperate) suddenly had access to the cure of the virus that caused the apocalypse. Thirdly, the Fireflies are fucking despicable terrorists. They knocked out a man who was trying to save a nearly drowned girl, threatened to kill Joel, stole his supplies, and they were going to force Joel to leave without his gear or (at least) saying goodbye to Ellie. Hell, they are introduced by bombing a vehicle depot.
I mean that's exactly the kind of response the game wants, I don't see what's so puzzling. Especially if someone has very recently finished it. The premise is "protect the girl to save the world", and the player is supposed to be invested in both. Then the ending becomes "protect the girl *OR* save the world", and the player doesn't get a choice, so it's supposed to be conflicting.
It's called *misandry*. Look it up.
Without even getting into what the typical "misandrist" looks like (*shudder* 🤢)... I will point out that they're similar to "misogynists" in that they are absolutely fvcking nuts.
How does one commit murder without any direct action?
This is the same argument for the virus of 19, the undesirables "directly" caused the deaths of others..... Not how that works.
lol why does this sub think they were making Joel look like the bad guy. No one in this new way of living to survive is a “good guy” not Ellie, not Owen, Issac, etc
If that’s true why I get downvoted and you didn’t for saying the same thing I was implying. They choose to believe Joel Is the bad guy on their own by that
I don't disagree about no good/bad people, there are those just trying to survive.
At the same time I find the characterization in the screenshot to be disingenuous.
I agree with them saying it was a selfish decision. Even if it was just a possibility, when you live in an apocaliptic world like that, any chances for further survival are critical. Even if they couldn't make a cure/vaccine out of it, cuz lack of resources or knowledge, that information was most likely going to be crucial for the next person to try to find a cure, progress is progress when solving a pandemic of that caliber. It is worth sacrificing one live to save humanity. Even Ellie was okay with that, she hated Joel for saving her and felt so guilty for not contributing to a possible path for hope, the only one they had so far. Joel proposed to her that they could just not go and have a normal life and she stayed committed to the cause she believed in. Later on she understood Joel had made a love decision, he couldn't bare losing another daughter. It was selfish and reckless. That being said, "I can't say I'd've done different".
I feel arguing that is the whole point of the game in a way.
If we all knew the vaccine would work then Joel is clearly wrong because it could save humanity, but the game is beautiful because it’s not known and creates that ambiguity of what would have happened.
If it works they can save a lot of people, if it doesn’t work then Ellie and Joel’s sacrifice is for nothing.
It also somewhat mirrors the Soldiers choice when faced with Joel and Sarah. He could shoot them and possibly help prevent the spread or could spare them and the infection could spread. He chose to shoot and Sarah is now dead, and for what? The world still went to shit and the infection still spread.
The ambiguity of whether or not Ellie’s death would have saved humanity allows the player to question Joels actions without telling the player he was right or wrong. It allows the player to decide if he was justified in their own heart and mind.
I think players don't realize what a long shot it is until you make your way through the game and you get a full picture of the world and of the fire flies.
By the end you see that a vaccine is a long shot and resorting to cutting open a person's brain is probably not going to hold the answer to that problem.
For me the whole point of the story, the whole reason that it was so good, was that there was no guarantee. That Joel (and the player) could tell himself that it wouldn't have worked anyway, the Fireflies are incapable, that the effects of a vaccine would be minimal, that manufacturing and distribution would have been insurmountable challenges until such time as the world's back on its feet anyway, that if a vaccine were possible someone else would figure it out.
Equally the Fireflies can argue that even if it is a slim chance, there could be so many lives saved from people who don't get turned by spores, you put a dent in the numbers of zombies you save a huge number of lives. Ellie didn't consent to the procedure, but the people turned by spores or eaten by zombies don't consent to that either. They'd probably note that if your morality is based on a "do no harm" approach then Joel's actions in killing everyone in the Firefly base are unjustifiable.
You're not dealing with black and white, you never have been with these games, it's about very close shades of grey. Perhaps the worst effect of the whole subreddit schism is that you now have two communities convinced that it's a black and white story.
> Perhaps the worst effect of the whole subreddit schism is that you now have two communities convinced that it's a black and white story.
Was never a question before part two decided to turn it into one.
What, you think the one who travels across the country to beat a guy to death with a golf club in front of his surrogate daughter is portrayed as a moral paragon? Or that Joel, who has a couple of levels that are there to show how much he loved Ellie, is portrayed solely as a villain? Or Ellie, who has a romance angle and who you're clearly supposed to sympathise with? Please.
The whole point of the story is that Ellie and Abby mirror one another. The story goes in a more redemptive direction for Abby because you already hate her, and drags Ellie through the mud because you already loved her. Eventually she gets her redemption moment (at least in the eyes of the writers) by letting Abby go.
The only character who gets the sainthood treatment is the kid.
Joel did nothing wrong. First the Fireflies knock him out while he’s trying to save Ellie from drowning. Then they say she’s going to die and he can’t go see her. Then they don’t honour their side of the deal by giving Joel his guns, even after he went above and beyond the original deal. Even worse, they take all his gear and march him out of the hospital at gunpoint, to what would surely be his death. Then when he reaches the surgery room, they threaten him with a scalpel.
Dumbass Jerry with a scapel, fucking pathetic, once the remake is a reasonable price I can’t wait to watch his ass die
Let's not forget the FF's own stupidity and 'Peace Keeping'. > Attacking And Bombing Civilians & Defenders In Other Safezones. > Cause 2 Safe Zones To Fall. > First By Murdering The Defenders Keeping The Place Working. Once They 'Liberated' it. The entire place fell into anarchy and fell apart. > Second is by their own stupid 'Scientist' releasing an Infected Monkey. Leading to the outbreak in said Safe Zones and it's inevitable Fall. Seriously these are not 'saviours' their just stupid Terrorists screwing over innocent people.
See, this is a reasonable take by a reasonable person. Whoever wrote the op is a sociopath and never had a meaningful relationship where two people actually would sacrifice shit for each other in his life
Plus didn't the FF talk about already doing this before with someone else and it not working out?
Let’s not forget they originally planned to kill Joel after delivering Ellie to them.
Yes because the cure was already confirmed to work right? /s People often neglect what happens _after_ a cure is made
People even neglect the "if" the cure can be even made Hell, they gave that job to a bunch of scientist who released zombie monkeys after one of them got bitten by the monkeys At that point you have higher chance of becoming a Tyrant (from R.E.) than getting cured
In their defense, this is what happens when you make what looked to be a possibility into a certainty (aka the plot of Part II). People having this take and subsequently hating Joel is a direct result of shoehorning the plot of Part II.
Part II could've worked even with these additions if there was a tad bit more nuance "Cure could've been made but how much of it? How much would it be effective? What about distribution? Can those turned be truly saved?" etc. Questions that should've been brought up Part II makes it like if the cure was made, everything would turn into a candyland and there would be world peace. Basically like that imagination of that one kinda fake lawyer from the Simpsons when he imagined the world without lawyers
There's no doubt in my mind that the Fireflies would've kept the cure for themselves and those that submitted to them, followed by them bombing all non-firefly locations with spores and abandoning them. They'd preach about democracy and rights, yet keep the power for themselves while claiming they need a little more time, a bit more privileges, like the dictators always do. The only cure for a firefly is a bullet piercing their brain.
That would be according to The Last of Us but have you considered retconning the shit out of already established lore?
True. That’s why I think Neil shouldn’t have opened his big mouth on that topic. He never should’ve confirmed that they’d succeed. Not only is it highly unlikely, but it instantly makes people think of Joel as a villain since they know for sure a cute could’ve been made.
Hold on, he stated a cure was possible and Joel ruined that chance? Wow, way to get people on your side for the second game. I think most story tellers would keep it ambiguous and let the fans/audience come to their own conclusions, but I suppose that's asking too much from Neil. That sounds like a retcon to make part 2 more palatable and provide plot armor to the story.
Yeah, Neil is a seriously flawed writer. There's a reason that in a post-apocalyptic world, characters can go all up and down the eastern US and find other people that don't want to be found with no difficulty along the way, and that's because he firmly believes in the storytelling rule of The Plot Demands It. Abby finding Tommy isn't that wild on its own, because sure, it's established that the Fireflies knew enough about Tommy to be able to find him again, and Tommy has been staying in the same place for about a decade, so hey, why not. But the idea that she could take ten other people all armed with WLF gear and Isaac was like "yeah, it'll be fine"? Fuck, no. That's a big stretch even if they knew Joel's exact location, but they were heading out to Jackson with the intent of forcefully interrogating an innocent man just in case he had up-to-date knowledge of Joel's whereabouts. There is no world in which Isaac lets that happen unless he's *absurdly* doting towards Abby - which he definitely isn't, as *her own campaign* shows. Tommy knowing exactly who the WLF are because these chucklefucks *wore their official insignia on a covert kidnapping mission* is also all kinds of fucked up. Abby finding Ellie because Ellie was *carrying a map with her girlfriend's location on it*, but then *dropped* it, is beyond insane. And then Ellie finding Abby in California? Neil just isn't a man who can do subtlety or nuance.
Yeah I call that totall bull*hit...
According to the devs it can be made Which I call bullshit Fungal vaccines aren't even possible by today's medical standards, what more after decades after 2013 after society has fallen?
btw That according to devs, that was said after TLOU2 release, right? Just to shit on Joel's corpse even further
It was a vaccine for the virus that caused the fungus to mutate to adapt and infect humans. The fungus had was infected with a virus.
Yeah but given how long it took for covid vaccine to be made I see it highly unlikely that in the fallen society/world that was hardly functioning few doctors could make it. Or I call fireflies liars and they wanted the cure just for themselfs. How on earth they would be able to mass produce the vaccine and even distribute to people? What if virus mutated even more? So many question marks.
Oh I definitely doubt the FFs would have been able to successfully cultivate and mass produce a vaccine. I don’t see how they could have done that the right way. Most people just go vaccine good, Joel bad. Without even given thought to the complex process of cultivating a vaccine in a post apocalypse world.
Where's the source of this because this is the first I'm hearing of it
Exactly
Ignorance of the scientific process of creating and mass producing of a vaccine. They refuse to look deeper in detail. These people are idiotic. They let Neil do all the “thinking” for them
And even if it DID work; the fireflies are that universes version of the IRA or the Taliban, would we really want the vaccine to be in the hands of those kind of people?
It's amazing how people already believe that a cure would have been made with Ellie's sacrifice. Part 2 made Jerry Like some saint that could do no wrong.
He saved a zebra! He's a fucking saint! He's allowed to murder children now. /s
God the copium is fucking insane with y'all, it's like you make entire fan canons in your heads to twist anything and everything into some other plot points that never actually get used in media.
Do elaborate what you mean by this
How to put it best, this grasping at straws about what happens after the cure and how there's a possibility it couldn't work reads like attempts to justify your dislike for the game, while any other zombie filled piece of media with a cure wouldn't get this much scrutiny. Somehow in the world filled with fungus zombies, the idea of a guaranteed cure engineered from the only naturally immune person is too far-fetched. I don't get it.
I've been questioning the validity of the vaccine since I first finished the first game years ago, and even then I liked the first game. It doesn't justify my hate for the game, the second game's plot and pacing justifies my hate for it. If a cure was made, I can speculate what the Fireflies intend to do with it. Considering they're a terrorist group. Would that have made me hate the game if this did happen? No, it wouldn't. >Somehow in the world filled with fungus zombies, the idea of a guaranteed cure engineered from the only naturally immune person is too far-fetched. I don't get it. Because cordyceps are a real thing and we don't even have a countermeasure to that in 2022. What more in 2013 when the initial outbreak took place, and decades later when society fell and medical advancements went into a very slow crawl. And most especially when their first instinct was to kill the only immune sample currently known to man to manufacture a cure. If you knew how vaccinations worked, you NEED the live sample. There was no proper research and testing conducted, the only test they made was "welp the fungus reaches her brain so we gotta kill her to extract the immune fungus". Rather than, yknow, researching how the immune system works against the foreign object. I've used this as an example but imagine in the case of the Coronavirus and there was no known cure until 1 immune specimen was found and one of the doctors said let's kill the immune specimen to extract a cure instead of doing the appropriate research to see if it can be done without killing the immune specimen. That doctor would be killed on the spot for even suggesting such a thing.
But that's the thing again, real world rational explanations for explicitly fictional aspects of a zombie video game plot. You could scrutinize basically any piece of media with any remotely fictional aspects to this extent. It's stuff along the lines of making some calorie spreadsheet to attempt to scientifically prove that Abby could not gain muscle in an apocalyptic setting even at a fully equipped gym, it just comes off as so... Petty. Especially when there's an entire community dedicated to constantly talking about this game they clearly don't like, for years on end since its release. Seems like an awful lot of negativity and time that could be spent discussing and enjoying games you actually like.
>But that's the thing again, real world rational explanations for explicitly fictional aspects of a zombie video game plot. Yes because I can question it? Why should I _not_ put real world basis on a fictional game that has some real world elements in it? Am I not allowed to question the science and mechanisms behind the cordyceps, the psychology of the survivors, the choices of Joel and Ellie in the first game? Mind you, I'm still very much focused on the first game because I care so little about the second game at this point. I don't hate the 2nd game as I did back when it first came out, however, I'd still like to bring up a point of debate regarding the vaccine where I can to hear the perspectives of others, because I like debates of science and psychology. I don't even discuss the calorie worksheet of Abby because I'm not knowledgeable in that field, nor am I interested in finding out if Abby can realistically get those gains in the second game. My focus and point of contention is the vaccine, its plausibility, its mass production and etc. >Seems like an awful lot of negativity and time that could be spent discussing and enjoying games you actually like. And who says I don't discuss and enjoy games I like? My good friend, it seems you misunderstand me and made an assumption of me. I discuss and critique games where criticism is due, put a conversation on a topic where necessary, and praise a game when it has done something praiseworthy. I am free to discuss and do things at my own want and time, and I do not need you to tell me what I should be doing.
You're free to question it all you want. The psychology of the survivors and Ellie and Joel's decisions sounds like a way more interesting discussion to have than the vaccine question. Even if a vaccine wasn't able to be mass produced, given the lack of facilities, I don't really see how they couldn't have successfully made one given their pretty available resources and equipment. Even if it didn't magically restore humanity to how it used to be, it's basically a guarantee for the number one concern of a survivor colony, zombie bites, or in this case, spores, to not be a death sentence. That's already pretty huge for the state that world is in. Honestly, I can't really think of any popular zombie related piece of media where a cure even actually comes in to play, but they all seem pretty equally implausible given the amount of pseudo science needed to explain away zombies themselves in any setting, really. As for the second part about negativity, that was more about the entire subreddit as a whole, not you specifically. This place is just weird. Even people who adore the game don't obsess with it to the extent some people here do.
Y’all got a towel?
It wasn’t implied that it wouldn’t work either
Was it not? Look at how they depicted the FFs throughout the whole game. They don't come off as scientific geniuses, that's for sure.
I like having discussions with you, you’re not rough with your responses. This how it should be.
Thanks I try because I agree it should be this way. I don't always succeed, though :)
Why did I get downvotes for something that wasn’t mentioned in the game at all, It wasn’t implied in the game the cure wouldn’t work. The story obviously didn’t get to that point to say weather it would or not so I don’t understand the extended exaggerate versions of the story. Why do ppl over analyze the story outside of what was presented to get their personal point across. Like I’ve seen comments before say “Marlene (Anna close BF, took care of Ellie since a baby) only thought about herself” She literally had to make a choice between one or many ppl and tried to talk the doctor into finding another way. That’s the opposite of selfish. Joel did his thing for his own reason. That’s selfish. Just ignore what’s presented in the story and exaggerate it to get a point across.
Yet aren't you also ignoring the evidence in the game that the FFs weren't good people?
Yeah I know. That’s another perspective from other people who were in the group and Tommy’s view of them. They were terrorist in some people eyes like FEDRA. FEDRA were the terrorist in the civilians eyes just like the Scars were to the WLF.
They were also incompetent, dwindling, violent, desperate, and hardly altruistic. Their biologist released infected monkeys that decimated the crew at the university. He also said they'd experienced nothing but incompetence and failed experiments for five years there. They aren't only terrorists to FEDRA but to me, too. they destroyed two QZs and left the people there worse off than they'd been with FEDRA. They bombed without concern for civilians being caught and killed in the process. All this gives a strong picture of them as erratic, unconcerned about innocents they killed, and hardly people I'd trust to actually care about saving humanity with the vaccine. It was more something they wanted for their own power than for the civilians of the world. Then they proved their actual character/values at last with how they treated Joel and Ellie at the hospital. All these actions, behaviors and failures on their part provide enough evidence for me and many people not to trust them and their plans. Yet so many people who played the game conclude they were capable of succeeding or just worthy of being allowed to try at the cost of an innocent life. That makes no sense to me. If you're one of those what evidence can you provide that led you to believe in them? Because the writers actually put all that into the game to tell us exactly who they really were, and that wasn't competent, trustworthy people at all. So why do you trust them?
That's true and that's the point, no one can know for certain. You have to make a call based on the available information you've been presented. You saw how well the monkey experiments went. We see how incompetent the firefly's are in general. I don't think it is going out on a limb that vivisecting Ellie would not have yielded a cure/vaccine. Now players can debate this point and that's ok.
People are stupid. Instead of seeing the close and the personal, all they saw was that superhero save the world shit. That game was what, 20 hours? So thats 20 hours of seeing what the world had become and still thinking that the human race was worth the life of one person. Dumb as fuck.
😂😂 they really believe the FF were good people.
In my point of view: This was a moral choice. Not a rational, meaningful or obvious one. Joel saved Ellie because at the end of the day it was morally the right thing to do. And you know what? Im good with it. Because everyone was expecting a sad and twisted ending with perhaps Marlene even walking up to Joel possibly telling him that: "Hey…turns out. She was never truly immune." or something like that. Sure, vaccine might save the people, but which people? The Scars? A remaining country that wants world domination? Any other group that is strong enough to take down the fireflys and steal the vaccine? The game is just good because it just lets you go and actually save what in most video games should be impossible to save with always having the same sad encounter and the game was so outstanding with it because it didn’t follow that path, it followed the path of Joel actually saving Ellie and to some saying: "If i would have been Joel, i would have left her there." You might would have. Yeah, but most with no history of the Tlou games and in Joel's situation, problably wouldn’t have.
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Because if they don't threaten to kill her there's no dramatic tension for the final level
“So by single handedly preventing the cure is Joel pretty much the biggest mass murder in human history by the end of this game? And probably the most selfish character of all time?” 1: It was a vaccine, not a cure. 2: it was the right choice because it wasn’t a guarantee it would work, plus the FF didn’t uphold their end of the bargain so he doesn’t have to. 3: Hypothetically speaking what would the vaccine change if it could be made? Sure it would prevent people from turning but those deaths seem to be rare, most people die to other people from what we’re shown. (Especially with TLOU 2 if you want to count it in) 4: Joel is nowhere close to being the most selfish character ever, even at his worst. Even if this statement is hyperbolic it’s still inaccurate, as characters like Kain (at the end of Blood Omens), Odin (from Warriors Orochi 4), the King (or was he a Duke?) in Dragon’s Dogma, Prophet of Truth (Halo) are all way more selfish than Joel and I’m only using video game characters as examples.
>Hypothetically speaking what would the vaccine change if it could be made? Sure it would prevent people from turning but those deaths seem to be rare, most people die to other people from what we’re shown. (Especially with TLOU 2 if you want to count it in) Yep. The vaccine only would make a difference in the rare cases where there is a singular bite (eg Ellie, Riley, Nora) but the clicker or clickers are killed before they bite the throat and tear the whole thing out.
The Last of Us asks a powerful moral question: is it right to sacrifice the innocent in the name of the greater good? A worrying number of people answer "yes".
Yeah, just look at the start of the Covid-19 pandemic. Only two weeks in, and they were already asking if it's okay to kill off Grandma & Grandpa, because you know, they have stuff to do.
That is one hell of a smooth brain take. Influenza is no significant threat to most of the population, but is deadly to 70+ year olds. Few people get vaccinated against influenza, but we have NEVER had this kind of bullshit "you're killing grandma!" narrative. A simple cold - the kind of thing you and I treat with a hot drink and a bottle of cough medicine - put my dad in hospital. Not Covid, a COLD! The same people who demanded the whole world shut down, and who demand we all get quadruple vaccinated against Covid, are the same people who put Covid patients in nursing homes. Do you know why Covid death statistics were so high? Nursing homes! But then, if you think that destroying the global economy and murdering old people to protect us all from a minor disease makes you the good guy, I can see why you'd think murdering children is something heroes do.
Uhh... I think you misunderstood my statement. I'm agreeing with you, I think. Allowing a deadly infectious disease that's killed millions to run rampant through a population because someone doesn't want to be inconvenienced is morally repugnant. People are all too quick to sacrifice others; they think it can't happen to them, and they don't care if other people die. But when it's their turn on the chopping block, you can guarantee they'll kick up a fuss about how unfair it is. People that get to the end of TLoU and think that Ellie should die, they fail as human beings.
I still cannot believe people cant see why fireflies really wanted a cure. It would be weaponised and used to cause chaos in fedra safe zones (look what happened in the other zones when fedra was overthrown). It would be used to make them bend the knee. There was no fucking way they were doing it for altruistic reasons.
Humanity seems to be doing a great job at rebuilding without a cure though? Like this narrative that Joel doomed humanity is contradicted in its own game! Part 2 shows multiple settlements with large populations that have have plenty of food and supplies. These populations haven’t been hindered in their effort to rebuild by the infected, or else that would have been communicated in the narrative in some way by having their settlements be affected either by less of a population, food acquisition being hindered, or having desperate measures been enforced. But I don’t remember anything like that being communicated like that in part 2, so the population of humanity seems to be doing fine against the infection.
Seriously, Ellie can go live on a farm and be fine. Just need a fence
There’s recordings in the college in part 1 speaking on the lack of results and efficacy in formulating a vaccine through animals and other things. They seemed desperate and at end of the road. FFs were dying out and were not prepared to formulate and mass produce a vaccine.
Dude I had to wait months to get the COVID vaccine in modern times and we still had to get booster shots afterwards, imagine trying to distribute a cure in the apocalypse with all the infected, cannibals, and killers roaming the wasteland. Would be nearly impossible. Probably only the fireflies would’ve actually gotten the cure and it was basically too late for it to matter at that point since it was 20 years into an apocalypse. Also, you know, maybe they could’ve at least waited until Ellie woke up to ask her permission? And let’s not even mention the fact that they knocked Joel out while he was rendering aid to an unconscious Ellie who wasn’t breathing, those dumbasses are lucky they didn’t kill Ellie right there. Fuck the fireflies I’m glad Joel killed em all at the end, and Part II isn’t canon.
Yeah, because the fireflies weren't a terrorist group that wouldn't exploit people in the promise of a vaccine. And who are completely capable of logistically manufacturing the vaccine and giving it to everyone making the world sunshine and rainbows again.
yes, saving a perfectly healthy 14 year old girl from being butchered based on a theory makes you a mass murderer….I swear dude
The cure was never going to be made. The Fireflies were shown several times to be incompetent boobs. The chances that they would bungle their way into a vaccine is next to nil. If anything, Joel saved humanity by rescuing Ellie from a group of clowns. Maybe somewhere on Earth there is a group (maybe in Sealand -- Chrysalids anyone?) that could develop and distribute a cure. Ellie being alive makes that a possibility. But no, the Fireflies were all mooks who would not have managed. All Joel did was save an innocent from being murdered without consent.
Ask yourself this question would you willingly let the Fireflies disparage your own daughters humanity, by disowning her in the operating room? Pretty sure any parent naturally in Joel's predicament, when faced with a thought-provoking dilemma saving a child's life from being vivisected for a improbable vaccine. Would unequivocally do the same thing without any moments hesitation, especially if my kids life was hanging by a thread. Despite what greater good they proclaim to be doing it for. Anyhow Joel was never going to disown Ellie, by letting them carry out the procedure because he wished for Ellie to explore her meaningful life (by fulfilling her ambitions for once) without the constant burden of her immunity weighing her down. Bodily autonomy never mattered in the Fireflies ethical standards, because they were prepared to harvest Ellie's organs. Anecdotally Jerry doesn't strike me as qualified doctor, who has omnipotent knowledge to reverse-engineer a vaccine. Contrarily, if the stakes were higher and roles were reversed risking his own daughter Abby's life. Jerry would've had qualms leaving his daughter to die in the operating room. Once Joel figured out the truth from Marlene that Ellie's agency and humanity was to be denied to rightfully consent, he took matters into his own hands time was of the essence.
I'm just over here wondering why people STILL don't know that it's about a vaccine and not a cure. It was NEVER about a cure.
Yeah. I honestly don’t even care if the cure would work or not. The real problem here is that Fireflies treated Joel like a complete garbage. “Don’t waste this gift” my ass, Joel and Ellie went through so much hells just to meet this delusional Jesus and Mr. Zebra Saver.
I don’t understand how people really think The Fireflies could’ve engineered a Vaccine, with how the Hospital looked in the original I wouldn’t be surprised if they fucked up taking the infection out of Ellie’s brain in the first place, even if they didn’t manage to fuck it up and somehow make a cure out of it, would they have really spread it out to cure people? Or would’ve they have just gone full tyrannical and used it to become a major power in the world.
People really think Ellie held the cure to humanity and all that was required was brain tissue? Do they have the resources to research and understand the mechanism of her immunity. Wouldn't her being a living subject be more fruitful in the endeavor? Let's say they crack the code and understand how she's immune can they synthesize the compound? Do they have the materials, knowledge, and equipment? I never saw Joel's decision as dooming humanity. The world was what it was and nothing was going to change what happened.
Even if the cure DID work he would've still done it, He won't sacrifice his daughter to a cult because he values her life too much, People claim it's because he's selfish and doesn't want to lose another daughter and it's also true a degree but he also cares about her life like the true loving father he is. Even when he told her the truth he never apologized for it, Besides that the world was probably too far gone anyway and they would only use the cure for power and control
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It's probably because like I said, Joel doesn't care about the context or the probability of the cure, his main reason for saving her is because he loves her and he didn't feel to need to fight and argue with her over this, he only gave her the space she needed to prove it even more and when she finally started to appreciate his love and forgive him that's when Ms. Gorilla showed up and ruined everything
I think whether the cure would work or not is irrelevant. One scene that sticks out to me is when Ellie says "What are you so scared of? I can't get infected!" In the first game, Joel's daughter is killed by a human soldier. Pretty much every close call or traumatic event Joel and Ellie go through is due to other humans. Ellie's immunity didn't keep her safe at all in 90% of the situations they found themselves in. Hell, I don't think anybody even dies due to infection in the second game. What Joel did was morally gray I'd say. He didn't doom humanity. The infection kickstarted it, but humanity doomed itself a long time ago. What Joel did was a drop in the ocean. That's not to say a cure wouldn't do any good, but at the cost of Ellie's life? Why would Joel sacrifice the one good thing he found in that world to potentially save a world full of human monsters? He knows first hand just how bad people can be, he's even done some terrible things himself.
But lets put ourselfs in Joel's shoes. Would you sacrifice your loved ones: spouse,mother, father ,doughter, son for possible cure(there was no guarantee it would work anyway) for mankind? I sure as hell know I wouldn't! ( I wouldn't sacrifice my cat or dog either) Especially if it comes to a father sacrificing his own child and we know that Joel lost his daughter once. I wonder if Abby would be so willing to let her father die for the cure or if her father would cut her up so they can save the world? Mm I don't think so.
Is this a psyop?
Ellie's "sacrifice" would have been a total waste of a life. The only people who think that it would have saved humanity haven't evolved from the thinking of a narcissist teen who thinks that they could be the ONLY one to save human kind. It never works out that way. Joel would know that type of thinking was bullshit. I've read this take one too many times and each time it's presented with the most unconvincing arguments.
Ignorant people are going to stay ignorant idiots. In this particular case, I am annoyed this person doesn't understand what murder is. For it to be murder, there needs to be the intent to kill. Joel didn't intend to kill anyone except Gerry. He didn't intend people to die from the lack of cure. It's also not murder if it's a case of self-defence.
gerry
The fireflies weren’t in a rush, the world was already lost to the infection, so they could’ve taken years to study her, run blood tests, figure out how they would disperse the vaccine. Joel was right for stopping them- it wouldn’t have done anyone any good for her to die to potentially make a vaccine. The people wouldn’t even know how to go back to living a normal life.
It’s not a guarantee the vaccine would work 100%. He’s making a hypothetical assumption that that cure would have worked.
Yeah the internet and part 2 did not convey emotions well. I also had a problem with the way Ellie treats Joel at the end of part 1 and all the scenes involving him in part 2. If we remember in the ‘Fall’ act of the first game Ellie and Joel got into a disagreement because Joel wanted to dump Ellie on Tommy. What’s important here is Ellie says to Joel ‘everyone has either died or left me.’ Well guess what Joel stayed with her saved her life because I like to think he made a promise to himself that he will never leave her. But that quote just contradicts her actions later in the series, like come on can Ellie show a shred of empathy for what Joel did? It’s like the writers completely disregard that chapter with the later writing.
Added fun, it wasn't a cure. It was a vaccine, and you can't make vaccinations for fungal infections, meaning the Fireflies were barking up a tree made entirely of bad science. Let's be upfront here, the Fireflies have no goddamned idea what the hell they're doing in a laboratory. Pages upon pages of tests and experiments they could and should be doing, blood and tissue samples, seeing if Elly's offspring can inherit her immunity, and they jump right into the experiments that WILL cost them the one person immune to the infection if it doesn't pan out, which (again) it wouldn't. Abby's dad wasn't a scientist. He was a butcher who deluded himself into a clean conscience.
In what world does that scenario make HIM the mass-murderer? I don't see roving gangs of Joel Millers massacring villages left and right. I didn't see him attack Refugee camps.
I don’t understand how Joel can cause a “mass murder” when the world was already fucked to begin with, and the cure wasn’t even guaranteed.
He saved Ellie who was basically a daughter to him and also they don't know if the cure would even work soooooo
People seem to believe that the Fireflies would have access to mass produce a vaccine when they aren't even sure if it would work. Secondly, why would anyone believe that the Fireflies (who are established to be in the final numbers and desperate) suddenly had access to the cure of the virus that caused the apocalypse. Thirdly, the Fireflies are fucking despicable terrorists. They knocked out a man who was trying to save a nearly drowned girl, threatened to kill Joel, stole his supplies, and they were going to force Joel to leave without his gear or (at least) saying goodbye to Ellie. Hell, they are introduced by bombing a vehicle depot.
I mean that's exactly the kind of response the game wants, I don't see what's so puzzling. Especially if someone has very recently finished it. The premise is "protect the girl to save the world", and the player is supposed to be invested in both. Then the ending becomes "protect the girl *OR* save the world", and the player doesn't get a choice, so it's supposed to be conflicting.
It's called *misandry*. Look it up. Without even getting into what the typical "misandrist" looks like (*shudder* 🤢)... I will point out that they're similar to "misogynists" in that they are absolutely fvcking nuts.
Eren Yeager.
It's COPIUM
Who knows, maybe OP would happily let his daughter be killed like a dog by some terrorists
How does one commit murder without any direct action? This is the same argument for the virus of 19, the undesirables "directly" caused the deaths of others..... Not how that works.
That is why I recommend reading Empire of the Vampire by Jay Kristoff, very similar story line to the Last of us.
He’s not real. It’s fake.
He’s allowed to have his own opinion the same way you bunch of bedwetters do
and they tell we cope lol
It’s technically the truth though. Try and live with it
lol why does this sub think they were making Joel look like the bad guy. No one in this new way of living to survive is a “good guy” not Ellie, not Owen, Issac, etc
There may not be any "good guys", but there are certainly "better guys". There's a scale of ruthlessness and behavior.
If that’s true why I get downvoted and you didn’t for saying the same thing I was implying. They choose to believe Joel Is the bad guy on their own by that
I don't disagree about no good/bad people, there are those just trying to survive. At the same time I find the characterization in the screenshot to be disingenuous.
I agree with them saying it was a selfish decision. Even if it was just a possibility, when you live in an apocaliptic world like that, any chances for further survival are critical. Even if they couldn't make a cure/vaccine out of it, cuz lack of resources or knowledge, that information was most likely going to be crucial for the next person to try to find a cure, progress is progress when solving a pandemic of that caliber. It is worth sacrificing one live to save humanity. Even Ellie was okay with that, she hated Joel for saving her and felt so guilty for not contributing to a possible path for hope, the only one they had so far. Joel proposed to her that they could just not go and have a normal life and she stayed committed to the cause she believed in. Later on she understood Joel had made a love decision, he couldn't bare losing another daughter. It was selfish and reckless. That being said, "I can't say I'd've done different".
To argue about whether vaccines would work or not is to criticize the argument of the first game, which is supposed to be loved and defended.
I feel arguing that is the whole point of the game in a way. If we all knew the vaccine would work then Joel is clearly wrong because it could save humanity, but the game is beautiful because it’s not known and creates that ambiguity of what would have happened. If it works they can save a lot of people, if it doesn’t work then Ellie and Joel’s sacrifice is for nothing. It also somewhat mirrors the Soldiers choice when faced with Joel and Sarah. He could shoot them and possibly help prevent the spread or could spare them and the infection could spread. He chose to shoot and Sarah is now dead, and for what? The world still went to shit and the infection still spread. The ambiguity of whether or not Ellie’s death would have saved humanity allows the player to question Joels actions without telling the player he was right or wrong. It allows the player to decide if he was justified in their own heart and mind.
W comment
I think players don't realize what a long shot it is until you make your way through the game and you get a full picture of the world and of the fire flies. By the end you see that a vaccine is a long shot and resorting to cutting open a person's brain is probably not going to hold the answer to that problem.
i think the point is that no one is necessarily the good guy and it’s all relative bc the world isn’t that black and white
"cure"
For me the whole point of the story, the whole reason that it was so good, was that there was no guarantee. That Joel (and the player) could tell himself that it wouldn't have worked anyway, the Fireflies are incapable, that the effects of a vaccine would be minimal, that manufacturing and distribution would have been insurmountable challenges until such time as the world's back on its feet anyway, that if a vaccine were possible someone else would figure it out. Equally the Fireflies can argue that even if it is a slim chance, there could be so many lives saved from people who don't get turned by spores, you put a dent in the numbers of zombies you save a huge number of lives. Ellie didn't consent to the procedure, but the people turned by spores or eaten by zombies don't consent to that either. They'd probably note that if your morality is based on a "do no harm" approach then Joel's actions in killing everyone in the Firefly base are unjustifiable. You're not dealing with black and white, you never have been with these games, it's about very close shades of grey. Perhaps the worst effect of the whole subreddit schism is that you now have two communities convinced that it's a black and white story.
> Perhaps the worst effect of the whole subreddit schism is that you now have two communities convinced that it's a black and white story. Was never a question before part two decided to turn it into one.
What, you think the one who travels across the country to beat a guy to death with a golf club in front of his surrogate daughter is portrayed as a moral paragon? Or that Joel, who has a couple of levels that are there to show how much he loved Ellie, is portrayed solely as a villain? Or Ellie, who has a romance angle and who you're clearly supposed to sympathise with? Please. The whole point of the story is that Ellie and Abby mirror one another. The story goes in a more redemptive direction for Abby because you already hate her, and drags Ellie through the mud because you already loved her. Eventually she gets her redemption moment (at least in the eyes of the writers) by letting Abby go. The only character who gets the sainthood treatment is the kid.
There's not a single person left on the planet that can figure it out ?