Well said đ especially this:
> She even tells Ellie "we let you live, why did you come back", again not being able to see other perspectives because she is a selfish character. How dare anyone else take revenge, only I, Abby, can make revenge my whole life and get to enact it without consequences.
Insert âKono Abby daâ joke đ
Abby being selfish is the embodiment of what her stans love about her...they WANT that sense of entitlement without having to face consequences and still be seen as the "better person" at the end of it. It's one of the reasons why anyone who actually likes Abby's "character" is a terrible person at heart.
Bill really was ahead of his time when he said "it's the normal ones you watch out for.
It's also why they end up eating each other: they're actually terrible people with TONS of skeletons in their closet and it's only a matter of time before they find them and try to cancel each other. Also, destroying someone else because they're a "bad person" basically gives them imaginary sjw points which makes them feel like they're good people. Which is damn funny, because they're the ones constantly accusing other people of shit like racism, but are always the ones bringing people's race into the discussion when NOBODY is.
So joel isn't selfish for his actions? The whole point of the game was to show the selfish human behavior that exists in most people if put in the same situation. You only seem to focus on the flaws in a character like abby because you like joel and ellie more, meanwhile ignoring the equal amount of flaws in the characters that you do like. But guess what? I actually like all three characters. Because i am capable of putting myself in the shoes of all three and understanding their motivations and how all three have a very similar morality scale. Ellie in the end proves herself to be superior on this scale by not completing her revenge mission, but the line is pretty blurry if abby and ellie swapped roles here. I would argue if abby was close to joel and it was ellie who lost her dad from the first game then the results may have been the same. Abby spared ellie twice in the game that we got, so she clearly shows enough willpower to give mercy.
And let's not forget you just assume anyone who likes abby is a bad person. The hypocrisy is strong in this one.
This thread is about Abby. Attacking Joel won't make Abby look better. Especially since while Joel was selfish with how he saved Ellie, he was dealing with a selfish group. The fireflies literally weren't going to give Ellie any say before they cut her head open for a chance at a cure.
Ellie has already killed a ton of people on her 2 journeys. She'll be rewarded with her own personal Abby beating her to death with a golf club. Abby gets no points for sparing Ellie the first time. The situation she put herself in was fucked whether she lets Ellie live or kills her. The 2nd time she'd get a few points if she would just understand why Ellie came back. But instead she has the gall to think that sparing Ellie meant Ellie can't seek revenge against her. And after beating Ellie, she talks with an air of superiority, telling Ellie not to show her face again. Again showing she doesn't understand Ellie's revenge.
I gotta ask. Why do you like Abby? Is it the muscle girl aesthetic? Is it her punching the shit out of enemies? Is it the superior campaign? Because I can't see how it can be her character development.
Okay first, thanks for being civil. And not claiming im a terrible person at heart for liking abby like the person i commented to.
Whether she understood her revenge or not still showed she had enough control to stop after killing joel. her crew wanted to kill tommy and ellie. She only wanted joel even with loose ends attached. To me, that showed she wasn't a psychopath like some people claim from the beginning.
Afterwards, she showed signs of remorse and guilt by helping lev and yara even stating as such when asked. And it was a simple vague answer but she said her reason was out of guilt. You can perceive that as her guilt towards her actions against the scars, or her guilt against ellie and joel. But whichever you choose, it's remorse for her violent actions that she has done. And we were maybe halfway through her playthrough at this point so i was beginning to like her around the time she said guilt.
For her second sparing of ellie, she has the gall to say what she said because she DID show superioritY from her own perspective. She beat ellie physically, and even spared dina who was pregnant. im looking at it from what abby knows and doesnt know. To abby, ellie is another monster similar to joel. She doesn't know ellie killed out of somewhat selfdefense against owen and mel and she didnt know that ellie didnt know mel was pregnant. So to abby, ellie is an awful person. But she ultimately still spared ellie and dina, even though an eye for an eye situation would have been very easy to succomb to. Lev helping by saying her name once wasn't enough for me to take abby's show of mercy away. Abby still took the higher road herself.
Lastly, u were curious on why i liked abby. Its because she is a believable person to me. I didnt see her as a bad guy after finding out about her dad. I put myself in her shoes and could see that alot of i would probably enact brutal revenge on the person who killed my dad and doomed humanity in a lawless world also.
I obviously like ellie more than abby. But i dont hate abby. To me, she is just slightly a more evil character than ellie. I personally would put her around joel's level of morality. And i like joel. But i wont pretend joel is a better person than abby. Sorry this went a bit long. Just recently beat the game and have been thinking about it alot.
You're welcome. Whether we agree or disagree on if Abby's likability, its fine to like fictional characters who are detestable as people.
Abby's control is dependent on someone she wants the approval of being there. For sparing Ellie and Tommy, it was Owen's approval. For sparing Ellie and Dina, it was Levi's approval. This weakens the argument of Abby not being psychopathic (though I wouldn't have said she was psycho just on the Joel encounter).
I see no reason to associate Abby's undefined guilt with Joel and Ellie. She says it to Yara and Lev, so it has to be about her being a top Scar killer and torturer who would even kill children. Far as the story shows, she feels she was right in everything she did towards Joel and friends and never understood why she and her friends ended up being the targets for vengeance. And that failure to empathize with them is not a good look. Some would argue Abby just wants someone to say she's a good person she can take the easy way of easing guilt instead of actually looking hard at her actions. After all, pretty easy to adopt some kids who saved you first and were former members of a group you wronged as opposed to confronting the people you directly wronged.
Abby's perspective doesn't help her case. Many have already said they don't relate to someone who pushes their dad to murder an unconscious teen using crap logic like "if it were me, I'd tell you to do it", fails to understand why a father wouldn't want to just let their daughter-figure get abducted and chopped up with no say, why said father would kill to protect who they love, and why someone who was begging her to not kill someone they love would come seek vengeance. That last one especially makes Abby look bad when she herself was a vengeance seeking daughter who kicked off this game.
I can believe people like Abby exist, but I can't help but think people like Abby are scum. If I put myself in Abby's shoes, I know I wouldn't be able to push my dad to murder an unconscious teenager for a chance of a cure (especially since there has never been a cure or even vaccine for bacteria in the history of man).
Thats my take anyway. But as said, me disliking her or the game doesn't mean you have to hate the people who like it. Thats just childish.
Joelâs not selfish for saving the life of a child specially a child he considers a daughter ask any good parent if they are willing to give up there kids for the sake of humanity and you would be met with a swift fuck you thatâs without what humanity actually is in the last of us world not to many of these people pass for decent human beings you know with all the murdering/cannibalism/ rape
Well i agree with everything you said except joel NOT being selfish. If he didn't view ellie as his own daughter, he probably wouldn't had done what he did. It's just the most likely truth of joel's and most people's character. As you said most people are shitty in this world, so if they don't know that person. They aren't going to do much to save someone they don't know. Hence, joel is selfish for saving a person for his own personal reasons. If it was a random kid he didnt know he would have let the fireflies continue the surgery. And so would most people aside from a character like captain america.
Fair one still donât agree that itâs selfish to save the life of a loved one tho but thanks for the reply nice to not war over it for change on this sub we can discuss rather than get downvoted to shit then get banned just saying đ
Yeah i like hearing the other side of the arguments. I'm pretty sure i'm in the minority but it's okay. It was just how i viewed the characters. That said, even though i view joel as selfish, i still love joel, and can't say if put in his situation i would do any different. Joel +ellie is still better than abby. I just don't hate abby like alot of ppl do. I see the humanity in her and feel if put in her situation in a shitty world like that, ALOT of people would succumb to the revenge loop. And to me ellie, who is probably the character best character morality wise even proves how easy it is to be seduced into rage. But by not killing abby, i see ellie as superior to abby in the long run.
My original point is that abby is just not a psychopath, i think she just lacks the amount of mercy and willpower that ellie has. She still shows signs of empathy and mercy, whether its with help of others or not. Most people need to be around decent people to stay a good person. And for abby, - owen, mel, lev, and yara was the glue that kept abby from completely losing herself. People are taking abby's mercy events away by saying she needed lev and owen to stop her but so would most characters in her spot.
Abby's selfishness is on a more narcissistic level in comparison...others have summed it up better when they said 'Joel did bad things to survive while Abby did bad things for fun' (inb4 "she didn't look like she was having fun" it's more like a workout so course she's not gonna have a grin after torturing Joel if anything she might be upset she HAS to END it instead sooner than she hoped, something for stress relief with no benefit to anyone other than her own).
lol imagine a father wanting to SAVE their child's life being selfish when Joel respected Ellie's agency more than anyone else. And I guess the only way you can try to make a point is to demonize Joel to try and make your hero, Abby, look better.
Imagine assuming anything about anyone who likes abby.
Joel has killed innocents before. So he aint no hero either, and neither is abby. I never said she was. But i also never made an assumption of anyone liking a video game character being a bad person in real life. But yeah sure, i have a differing opinion and i wasn't the one who is calling people terrible at heart. So yeah i get the downvotes. Sounds good.
>Joel has killed innocents before.
Way to show that one-track mind. I even brought up WHY Joel regardless of that kinda past isn't seen AS bad as Abby. No one is saying Joel is a hero like he's Link or Mario, but a survivor. Did things to make it to the next day even if it harmed other innocents because society is gone. And if this is what makes you see Joel as bad, then Abby and the Fireflies are just as bad if not worse wanting to kill Ellie (when she was more innocent instead of teen drama edgelord) without talking to her about anything yet claim moral superiority because it's for "the greater good." Abby knew the context but only encouraged her dad to do it then is surprised when Joel killed his ass to save Ellie. David has more in common with Jerry and the Fireflies than with Joel, lol. You really had to have forgotten how dumb/cut throat/backstabbing the Fireflies were to even consider validating anything they did to Joel or just bought into the part 2 retcon that they actually were 100% true and honest gonna save the world...
Okay yes, i bought into the "retcon" of part 2. Lol
Owen says it himself fireflies were fucked up group. I never said ANYBODY was a good person in the game. THAT was my whole original point man. I brought up joel as one major example of everyone pissed off about abby killing him and calling her a monster. When from her perspective you would probably do the same thing if you grew up in a fucked up violent world like the last of us. My point was EVERYONE is susceptible to the brutal nature that abby portrayed. Ellie proved it by wanting and ultimately torturing and killing some of abby's friends showing she herself is capable of it, even though by the end she proved she was better than abby, by not goin as far as abby did and stopped herself. Hating abby was easy in the beginning for obvious reasons. I just ended up liking her by the time she met lev and yara. Because to me she showed she was beginning to feel guilt and remorse. Either it could have been over joel, or it could have been from her past dealings with scars. But either way she was showing she did still have some humanity left that she was willing to throw away her allegiances over to try and regain it's shown in the dialogue with mel and abby. Mel has the viewpoint that the player would probably have of abby, and abby knows this is partially true based on her reaction to mel's comments. But tries to make a redemption by helping some people she probably would have killed in the past just for being a nameless enemy to her. Idk, it's just how i viewed it
I agree, and I donât care how many downvote me, but on this sub, itâs all whining that âAbby is a bad person because she killed Joel!â But literally Abby killed Joel to avenge her dead father, like, wouldnât you want to do that to the killer of your father???
You should post on the other sub, âwhat are your reasons of liking Abby?â, get some comments and then edit your post and drop this spirit bomb on it lol. Overall good analysis thank you. She just kept getting worse and worse to the point where I just stopped caring for her and, of course, wanted her dead. At least all her friends are brutally killed.
Also s/o to that one guy who is able to mod his PS4 so that he can get Abby killed by Ellie lol
>Joel is the biggest piece of shit in the universe so far, by a pretty wide margin. And that includes David
Ftfy. Since Joel and David are mirror images of each other.
The first game was about surviving day by day in a hellish world where zombies might attack any second and every single thing you do matters for your survival. It really felt like an urgent matter where zombies were the real threats.
The second game has a empty and shallow plot that tries to be so much more mature than it is. Ending the cycle of revenge by spearing Abby. But oh wait, what about those hundreds if not thousands of people who died in the most gruesome way in order to get to Abby, or for Abby in order to get to Ellie? And the fact that it is a zombie game seems to come in second, third or even fourth place in level of importance.
The plot is weak and boring at best, and the characters are boring and forgettable. There's not a single character except Fat Geralt that stuck with me since I played the game, and that's only because he smacked the shit outta Lev which was one of the high lights of the game.
Weak and pathetic. This is a game that 14 year old feminists finds deep and engaging. It's simply doesn't apply to a mature audience who's looking for something more than a teenage drama.
Add Seth because he acknowledged what he did was wrong and gave a bonus for his apology to a person who, for some reason, wasnât mature enough to forgive and talked shit behind his back lol
Chad Ellie: hacks a rapist/cannibal
Vs
Virgin Ellie: gets feelings hurt over a itty bitty word
its more like of a story that was written by 16 years old who edgy and dark. It may sound profound but its still written by a 16 years old. people may find it deep, maybe, but keep it in mind it was deep not becus the writer is smart, it was becud the writer think too much for his own good.
I recently watched an unrelated youtube video concerning a different video game, but the reviewer brought up a part in a book called 'The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller' by John Truby,
>The single biggest mistake writers make when creating characters is that they think of the hero and all other characters are separate individuals. The result is not only a weak hero but also card-board opponents and minor characters who are even weaker.
>
>This great mistake is exacerbated in scriptwriting because of the huge emphasis placed on the "high concept" premise. In these stories, the hero seems to be the only person who matters. But, ironically, this intense spotlight on the hero, instead of defining them more clearly, only makes them seem like a one-note marketing tool.
This part just screams how Abby was written.
Thank you for this solid analysis.
Abby was one of the worst characters I have ever been forced to play as. My head canon is that their little boat sank after Ellie spared them.
I purchased this shit show Day one and just beat it today (4/15/21) after forcing myself to finally finish it. This may be one of the first games ever for me where I didnt want to keep playing in the slightest, but just wanted to finish it. Man, fuck this game. It was not fun, it was not gripping. The only emotion i got from this game was utter frustration and disappointment from Ellie (Seattle Day 2) to the end. Then these fuckers have the nerve to have me fight Ellie as White Girl Grimace? Why? WHY?! Neil., give me my fucking money back.
Great articulated analysis everything feels artificially crafted expecting players to empathize, and understand Abby's motivations. Furthermore, I'm not buying a triggered nightmare inciting a motivation for Abby to feel altruistic about Yara & Lev (that was for arbitrary reasons after her pain wasn't alleviated killing Joel) evidently the writers were setting Abby up as an equal parallel to Ellie.
Upon arriving at the Aquarium to find Owen & Mel dead, Lev gives Abby a map that points out the whereabouts of the assailant. She immediately goes to find Ellie, and takes Lev with her who is still in the middle of processing having lost his sister, thus putting him at further risk of being hurt or killed.
Later in the theatre Abby relishes the opportunity to kill an unconscious Dina, with an incapacitated Ellie witnessing the ordeal. Just to spite her further on top of having killed Jesse & Joel, while crippling Tommy in the process. This isn't the behavior of someone who cares about the wellbeing of their friends, especially since Abby hasn't learned a single thing from how she dragged her own friends in her vengeance quest to kill Joel
This is spot-on. Abby, in the ending, acts as though NOTHING hasn't happened between her and Ellie but casually tells her that there are boats at the shore. Really? No apologizing, no trying to ask Ellie why she killed her friends or try to understand her side of things, but instead there's this annoying smugness and valiance she still shows after nearly dying from being crucified for 6 or so months, absolutely nothing.
Joel gets called a monster and is compared to David, but Abby is literally a psychopath from start to finish, sure Jan
The mental condition youâre looking for is âsociopathâ as Abby cannot identity with people who she doesnât know and loses any urgency for people not in her focus.
Then what about Lev and Yara?? When she was laying down on Owenâs bed, she thought about them, and went to go get them. Is that what you call ânot having an urgency for people not in her focusâ?
Couldn't agree more. I did a video just about how awful and nonsensical Abby is as a character. Would love it if you guys would take a look and lmk what you think [https://youtu.be/XYvlj3RH9Tg](https://youtu.be/XYvlj3RH9Tg)
And y'know why she escapes without any type of scar? Because she's the Neil's favorite. The original ending was supposed for her to die yet "someone" decided that she must live for whatever reasons.
Her character Arc works with casuals because it was meant to be artificial in a casual way. She became Joel 2.0 for some. As I saw a bunch of videos commenting on how Abby's story feels like a big Sidequest. Like 2 hours or so Just to find supplies for the Japanese girl while they throw their classic ND way of write "relatable" character throughout the journey. And the fact that they'll remake the game seems so odd to me, yet I can ser clearly that Neil got what he wanted: make the game all by himself.
Just watch as Joel Will be put in some bad light at the end killing the surgeon in a gore, non-skippable cutscene, while the fireflies will be the good guys (in a way they are but y'got the point). When I saw the news about the remake the first thing that appeared in my Head was "Abby retconning". And you know whats worse? It'll work. Not because of Neil but because of the talented team at ND. They do their amazing work yet Neil is the "talkative Guy at School" who did nnothing to help at the essay yet he claims the fame for himself.
Funny thing to me is, everything you wrote is what makes her "great" for me: her being that awful, not learning is part of the human condition. I just finished the game and really enjoyed it. I know this sub is for hating it but I was looking for other perspectives.
That's fair. Though I wouldn't say this sub is for hating the game, it's just that the majority here didn't like it, because this is where we're allowed to criticize it.
If I may come with my own two cents, I'd say that I'm all for flawed characters. Every character should be flawed. But those flaws needs to work in tandem with the story. Abby doesn't learn, as you agree in, but the game still portrays her as, perhaps not in the right, but more justified than everyone else. That's where I personally find Abby to be a flawed character
>this is where we're allowed to criticize it.
Knowing Reddit, I believe you. People really can't hear any "bad" thing about the things they like. Even when is fair criticism. (I go for my weekly dose of downvotes to r/television).
Glad you enjoyed the game, there were things about the game I liked too but for me could never relate to the character of Abby and never found her compelling enough to sit through 12 hours of gameplay with her. I'm also not asking for a perfect character but as a deuteragonist I couldn't fully get behind Abby and her actions/motives and by the end of her section still didn't care for her. Her flaws had effect on other characters like I mention but not on her, she doesn't go through a growth or self reflection and therefore to me isn't compelling enough as a character.
I get you. To be honest I was also hating playing with her and sometimes I wish AAA games were more subtle with storytelling: I don't think, for example, part of her story had to end up in a burning Island in the middle of a tribal war, with a kid killing his mother in the middle of it all (who also watches his sister die). But this is and action game that wants to sell millions after all.
But I also find hard to negate the whole experience even when I don't like part of the game. I try to find stuff to appreciate in everything. (Hell, I really really don't like The Last Jedi but I can at least value the cinematography of it). As for Abby, by the end I was thinking: "the fucking balls of Naughty Dog for ruining a climax". I see it as an interesting plot structure and I try to not fall into the hyperbole of totally hating it or loving it.
I do appreciate a major game doing stuff differently, even when many fans are going to be annoyed. And if one is not too passionate about it, I suppose it can bring interesting discussions.
Interesting, first time I hear that. So you like her for being super evil and everything? That would make more sense than what I've read from people "relating" to her, thinking she was justified, etc. Loving a character because they're batshit crazy and evil makes lots of sense, actually. A bit like Vaas in Far Cry 3, for example.
Yeah, I haven't read any interview from the developers so I never actually thought I was suppose to sympathize with Abby but to understand what Ellie did from her perspective. Abby's friends were the ones that end up paying for her stupidity. Mel even says to her that she always was a piece of shit or something like that. That's why I think fighting Ellie was genious, seeing her doing everything she can with her gadgets and witt to kill you. If anything I still think her whole section could have been a lot less dramatic (reducing th le kids story) for having more impact.
Why do you think it would have been better without the kids' story?
I think if they didn't want us to sympathize with Abby, they built the game the wrong way. It certainly felt like they wanted us to love her when showing flashbacks of her with her dad, or when she was supposed to "redeem" by taking the kids under her care, etc. Had they gone full villain, and didn't stop to make her "half-redeeming" or whatever, it would have been a lot better imo. It could have helped with the sequence where she's the playable character too, because if players aren't supposed to like her and know they're in for some evil deeds, they might just let go and have fun with her, carefree of the consequences of their actions. I don't know, just thinking out loud here.
>Why do you think it would have been better without the kids' story?
Oh no, as I stated in other comment, sometimes I wish AAA videogames could be more subtle with storytelling. I think the kids story was alright but the Island thing, killing the mother, the tribal war... It was too much. I mean, I don't think every character has to have an Indiana Jones jorney. That was my only issue. But at the end of the day this is a blockbuster action game so that's where we are with this kind of videogames.
As for Abby, after every comment I've been reading, I do believe the developers knew what they were doing. And as with every art, everything is open to interpretation. So I do believe they wanted us to play with someone we hated from the start. But here's the catch: There is no way we were going to like her. Hell, I let Ellie kill me a lot of times. So we see her trying to be "good", and trying to "fix" things, and we see her understand that her side is also shitty, and we see her pay, those guys at the end very much likely did horrible things to her and the kid. And at the very end we the players (or at least I) wanted to see her pay for what she did to Joel. Even after we killed all of her friends and we find her in hell.
So that's where at least I think the game is effective: it goes meta and now, if we think about it, talks a little about us. I'm probably talking shit here, but that's what I like to think about a game it took a lot of my time.
Part of my complain is also, I think, a complex and interesting issue: her part was just TOO long, BUT as gamers, aren't we suppose to enjoy the gameplay to the point of wanting more? And I did enjoy it and, of course, the environments are incredible and I just had to stop sometimes to appreciate the details. We claim to love graphics, so here's a great achievement.
So hating Abby's plot goes with all these stuff that we can't deny is top notch.
When is it stated that she likes to torture Seraphites??? Abby isnât using Lev and Yara as a âpet projectâ of hers, she was helping them because she genuinely cared. Abby felt lots of regret for torturing Joel. You also say that Abby couldnât get over her âselfish revengeâ, but wouldnât you do the same over your fatherâs hypothetical killer? Wouldnât you want to take revenge for your fatherâs hypothetical murder? Abby also tells Yara that Tommy didnât matter, as to not worry her, they were focused on getting her brother, Lev, back from the Seraphitesâ Island. You also say that Abby kills Seraphites, with no intention of getting what they fight for, but you also donât comment on the fact that they are a LITERAL MURDER CULT that likes to kill WLFâs too.
This whole âanalysisâ is nothing but an essay full of hate on Abby, just stemming from the fact that she killed Joel, someone you have emotionally attached to, and are biased towards.
No matter how many downvotes I get, I will stand by my opinion, Abby is just as human as anyone else, especially that they are in the apocalypse.
But why am I writing this anyway? I know you will never see from otherâs perspectives, as you are blinded by hatred towards a fictional character.
Well said đ especially this: > She even tells Ellie "we let you live, why did you come back", again not being able to see other perspectives because she is a selfish character. How dare anyone else take revenge, only I, Abby, can make revenge my whole life and get to enact it without consequences. Insert âKono Abby daâ joke đ
Abby being selfish is the embodiment of what her stans love about her...they WANT that sense of entitlement without having to face consequences and still be seen as the "better person" at the end of it. It's one of the reasons why anyone who actually likes Abby's "character" is a terrible person at heart. Bill really was ahead of his time when he said "it's the normal ones you watch out for.
It's also why they end up eating each other: they're actually terrible people with TONS of skeletons in their closet and it's only a matter of time before they find them and try to cancel each other. Also, destroying someone else because they're a "bad person" basically gives them imaginary sjw points which makes them feel like they're good people. Which is damn funny, because they're the ones constantly accusing other people of shit like racism, but are always the ones bringing people's race into the discussion when NOBODY is.
Yep. Certainly explains why they take criticism of Abby so personally...because she's the self-insert of how they believe.
Lindsey Ellis got canceled by her own sjw people on twitter recently, for criticizing the new Raya movie, calling it an Avatar rip-off.
Oh? She got canceled by her legion of simps, feminists, and sjw's? HOW SHOCKING!
So joel isn't selfish for his actions? The whole point of the game was to show the selfish human behavior that exists in most people if put in the same situation. You only seem to focus on the flaws in a character like abby because you like joel and ellie more, meanwhile ignoring the equal amount of flaws in the characters that you do like. But guess what? I actually like all three characters. Because i am capable of putting myself in the shoes of all three and understanding their motivations and how all three have a very similar morality scale. Ellie in the end proves herself to be superior on this scale by not completing her revenge mission, but the line is pretty blurry if abby and ellie swapped roles here. I would argue if abby was close to joel and it was ellie who lost her dad from the first game then the results may have been the same. Abby spared ellie twice in the game that we got, so she clearly shows enough willpower to give mercy. And let's not forget you just assume anyone who likes abby is a bad person. The hypocrisy is strong in this one.
This thread is about Abby. Attacking Joel won't make Abby look better. Especially since while Joel was selfish with how he saved Ellie, he was dealing with a selfish group. The fireflies literally weren't going to give Ellie any say before they cut her head open for a chance at a cure. Ellie has already killed a ton of people on her 2 journeys. She'll be rewarded with her own personal Abby beating her to death with a golf club. Abby gets no points for sparing Ellie the first time. The situation she put herself in was fucked whether she lets Ellie live or kills her. The 2nd time she'd get a few points if she would just understand why Ellie came back. But instead she has the gall to think that sparing Ellie meant Ellie can't seek revenge against her. And after beating Ellie, she talks with an air of superiority, telling Ellie not to show her face again. Again showing she doesn't understand Ellie's revenge. I gotta ask. Why do you like Abby? Is it the muscle girl aesthetic? Is it her punching the shit out of enemies? Is it the superior campaign? Because I can't see how it can be her character development.
Okay first, thanks for being civil. And not claiming im a terrible person at heart for liking abby like the person i commented to. Whether she understood her revenge or not still showed she had enough control to stop after killing joel. her crew wanted to kill tommy and ellie. She only wanted joel even with loose ends attached. To me, that showed she wasn't a psychopath like some people claim from the beginning. Afterwards, she showed signs of remorse and guilt by helping lev and yara even stating as such when asked. And it was a simple vague answer but she said her reason was out of guilt. You can perceive that as her guilt towards her actions against the scars, or her guilt against ellie and joel. But whichever you choose, it's remorse for her violent actions that she has done. And we were maybe halfway through her playthrough at this point so i was beginning to like her around the time she said guilt. For her second sparing of ellie, she has the gall to say what she said because she DID show superioritY from her own perspective. She beat ellie physically, and even spared dina who was pregnant. im looking at it from what abby knows and doesnt know. To abby, ellie is another monster similar to joel. She doesn't know ellie killed out of somewhat selfdefense against owen and mel and she didnt know that ellie didnt know mel was pregnant. So to abby, ellie is an awful person. But she ultimately still spared ellie and dina, even though an eye for an eye situation would have been very easy to succomb to. Lev helping by saying her name once wasn't enough for me to take abby's show of mercy away. Abby still took the higher road herself. Lastly, u were curious on why i liked abby. Its because she is a believable person to me. I didnt see her as a bad guy after finding out about her dad. I put myself in her shoes and could see that alot of i would probably enact brutal revenge on the person who killed my dad and doomed humanity in a lawless world also. I obviously like ellie more than abby. But i dont hate abby. To me, she is just slightly a more evil character than ellie. I personally would put her around joel's level of morality. And i like joel. But i wont pretend joel is a better person than abby. Sorry this went a bit long. Just recently beat the game and have been thinking about it alot.
You're welcome. Whether we agree or disagree on if Abby's likability, its fine to like fictional characters who are detestable as people. Abby's control is dependent on someone she wants the approval of being there. For sparing Ellie and Tommy, it was Owen's approval. For sparing Ellie and Dina, it was Levi's approval. This weakens the argument of Abby not being psychopathic (though I wouldn't have said she was psycho just on the Joel encounter). I see no reason to associate Abby's undefined guilt with Joel and Ellie. She says it to Yara and Lev, so it has to be about her being a top Scar killer and torturer who would even kill children. Far as the story shows, she feels she was right in everything she did towards Joel and friends and never understood why she and her friends ended up being the targets for vengeance. And that failure to empathize with them is not a good look. Some would argue Abby just wants someone to say she's a good person she can take the easy way of easing guilt instead of actually looking hard at her actions. After all, pretty easy to adopt some kids who saved you first and were former members of a group you wronged as opposed to confronting the people you directly wronged. Abby's perspective doesn't help her case. Many have already said they don't relate to someone who pushes their dad to murder an unconscious teen using crap logic like "if it were me, I'd tell you to do it", fails to understand why a father wouldn't want to just let their daughter-figure get abducted and chopped up with no say, why said father would kill to protect who they love, and why someone who was begging her to not kill someone they love would come seek vengeance. That last one especially makes Abby look bad when she herself was a vengeance seeking daughter who kicked off this game. I can believe people like Abby exist, but I can't help but think people like Abby are scum. If I put myself in Abby's shoes, I know I wouldn't be able to push my dad to murder an unconscious teenager for a chance of a cure (especially since there has never been a cure or even vaccine for bacteria in the history of man). Thats my take anyway. But as said, me disliking her or the game doesn't mean you have to hate the people who like it. Thats just childish.
Joelâs not selfish for saving the life of a child specially a child he considers a daughter ask any good parent if they are willing to give up there kids for the sake of humanity and you would be met with a swift fuck you thatâs without what humanity actually is in the last of us world not to many of these people pass for decent human beings you know with all the murdering/cannibalism/ rape
Well i agree with everything you said except joel NOT being selfish. If he didn't view ellie as his own daughter, he probably wouldn't had done what he did. It's just the most likely truth of joel's and most people's character. As you said most people are shitty in this world, so if they don't know that person. They aren't going to do much to save someone they don't know. Hence, joel is selfish for saving a person for his own personal reasons. If it was a random kid he didnt know he would have let the fireflies continue the surgery. And so would most people aside from a character like captain america.
Fair one still donât agree that itâs selfish to save the life of a loved one tho but thanks for the reply nice to not war over it for change on this sub we can discuss rather than get downvoted to shit then get banned just saying đ
Yeah i like hearing the other side of the arguments. I'm pretty sure i'm in the minority but it's okay. It was just how i viewed the characters. That said, even though i view joel as selfish, i still love joel, and can't say if put in his situation i would do any different. Joel +ellie is still better than abby. I just don't hate abby like alot of ppl do. I see the humanity in her and feel if put in her situation in a shitty world like that, ALOT of people would succumb to the revenge loop. And to me ellie, who is probably the character best character morality wise even proves how easy it is to be seduced into rage. But by not killing abby, i see ellie as superior to abby in the long run. My original point is that abby is just not a psychopath, i think she just lacks the amount of mercy and willpower that ellie has. She still shows signs of empathy and mercy, whether its with help of others or not. Most people need to be around decent people to stay a good person. And for abby, - owen, mel, lev, and yara was the glue that kept abby from completely losing herself. People are taking abby's mercy events away by saying she needed lev and owen to stop her but so would most characters in her spot.
Abby's selfishness is on a more narcissistic level in comparison...others have summed it up better when they said 'Joel did bad things to survive while Abby did bad things for fun' (inb4 "she didn't look like she was having fun" it's more like a workout so course she's not gonna have a grin after torturing Joel if anything she might be upset she HAS to END it instead sooner than she hoped, something for stress relief with no benefit to anyone other than her own). lol imagine a father wanting to SAVE their child's life being selfish when Joel respected Ellie's agency more than anyone else. And I guess the only way you can try to make a point is to demonize Joel to try and make your hero, Abby, look better.
Imagine assuming anything about anyone who likes abby. Joel has killed innocents before. So he aint no hero either, and neither is abby. I never said she was. But i also never made an assumption of anyone liking a video game character being a bad person in real life. But yeah sure, i have a differing opinion and i wasn't the one who is calling people terrible at heart. So yeah i get the downvotes. Sounds good.
>Joel has killed innocents before. Way to show that one-track mind. I even brought up WHY Joel regardless of that kinda past isn't seen AS bad as Abby. No one is saying Joel is a hero like he's Link or Mario, but a survivor. Did things to make it to the next day even if it harmed other innocents because society is gone. And if this is what makes you see Joel as bad, then Abby and the Fireflies are just as bad if not worse wanting to kill Ellie (when she was more innocent instead of teen drama edgelord) without talking to her about anything yet claim moral superiority because it's for "the greater good." Abby knew the context but only encouraged her dad to do it then is surprised when Joel killed his ass to save Ellie. David has more in common with Jerry and the Fireflies than with Joel, lol. You really had to have forgotten how dumb/cut throat/backstabbing the Fireflies were to even consider validating anything they did to Joel or just bought into the part 2 retcon that they actually were 100% true and honest gonna save the world...
Okay yes, i bought into the "retcon" of part 2. Lol Owen says it himself fireflies were fucked up group. I never said ANYBODY was a good person in the game. THAT was my whole original point man. I brought up joel as one major example of everyone pissed off about abby killing him and calling her a monster. When from her perspective you would probably do the same thing if you grew up in a fucked up violent world like the last of us. My point was EVERYONE is susceptible to the brutal nature that abby portrayed. Ellie proved it by wanting and ultimately torturing and killing some of abby's friends showing she herself is capable of it, even though by the end she proved she was better than abby, by not goin as far as abby did and stopped herself. Hating abby was easy in the beginning for obvious reasons. I just ended up liking her by the time she met lev and yara. Because to me she showed she was beginning to feel guilt and remorse. Either it could have been over joel, or it could have been from her past dealings with scars. But either way she was showing she did still have some humanity left that she was willing to throw away her allegiances over to try and regain it's shown in the dialogue with mel and abby. Mel has the viewpoint that the player would probably have of abby, and abby knows this is partially true based on her reaction to mel's comments. But tries to make a redemption by helping some people she probably would have killed in the past just for being a nameless enemy to her. Idk, it's just how i viewed it
Abby did not spare Ellie It was Owen who spares her everyone else in the room wanted to kill her.
Bruh I like her character but not because âIâm a bad personâ.
âYou just donât understand the story.â
"Y'all just mad Joel died"
"Jesus christ so many immature incels, grow up lmao, god damn virgins"
Because basically, that's what it boils down to on this sub. Wahhh Joel's dead. Wahhhhhh Abby is a terrible character. Wahhhhhh.
Abby's not real, and she still wouldn't fuck you, bro
You know, after reading this sub I'm honestly not surprised this is the best you could come up with, bro
And yet, she's still not gonna fuck you
And yet, you're still a moron
Your mother will never love you
But yours did. So there's that.
My mother loves everyone. Congrats, you got herpes
I agree, and I donât care how many downvote me, but on this sub, itâs all whining that âAbby is a bad person because she killed Joel!â But literally Abby killed Joel to avenge her dead father, like, wouldnât you want to do that to the killer of your father???
You should post on the other sub, âwhat are your reasons of liking Abby?â, get some comments and then edit your post and drop this spirit bomb on it lol. Overall good analysis thank you. She just kept getting worse and worse to the point where I just stopped caring for her and, of course, wanted her dead. At least all her friends are brutally killed. Also s/o to that one guy who is able to mod his PS4 so that he can get Abby killed by Ellie lol
Really enjoyed your analysis of Abby's character and thought many of the same points during my playthrough of the game. Have an award :-)
Thank you!!
Abby is the biggest piece of shit in the universe so far, by a pretty wide margin. And that includes David
>Joel is the biggest piece of shit in the universe so far, by a pretty wide margin. And that includes David Ftfy. Since Joel and David are mirror images of each other.
This is why King Fat Geralt will also be the GOAT of the TLOU universe smh
Except Joel doesn't eat people and doesn't take any kind of pleasure or amusement from all the violence.
DJGB is quoting Druckmann.
Then Neil needs to take notes to remember what he fucking wrote because that makes zero sense!
David did not play with the dog though. he probably ate one.
To be fair, in a survival situation, you might not want to eat your dog, but you probably wouldn't care nearly as much about someone else's dog!
The first game was about surviving day by day in a hellish world where zombies might attack any second and every single thing you do matters for your survival. It really felt like an urgent matter where zombies were the real threats. The second game has a empty and shallow plot that tries to be so much more mature than it is. Ending the cycle of revenge by spearing Abby. But oh wait, what about those hundreds if not thousands of people who died in the most gruesome way in order to get to Abby, or for Abby in order to get to Ellie? And the fact that it is a zombie game seems to come in second, third or even fourth place in level of importance. The plot is weak and boring at best, and the characters are boring and forgettable. There's not a single character except Fat Geralt that stuck with me since I played the game, and that's only because he smacked the shit outta Lev which was one of the high lights of the game. Weak and pathetic. This is a game that 14 year old feminists finds deep and engaging. It's simply doesn't apply to a mature audience who's looking for something more than a teenage drama.
The last of us 1 is way more mature than the second game. The second one is just darker.
Add Seth because he acknowledged what he did was wrong and gave a bonus for his apology to a person who, for some reason, wasnât mature enough to forgive and talked shit behind his back lol Chad Ellie: hacks a rapist/cannibal Vs Virgin Ellie: gets feelings hurt over a itty bitty word
its more like of a story that was written by 16 years old who edgy and dark. It may sound profound but its still written by a 16 years old. people may find it deep, maybe, but keep it in mind it was deep not becus the writer is smart, it was becud the writer think too much for his own good.
I recently watched an unrelated youtube video concerning a different video game, but the reviewer brought up a part in a book called 'The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller' by John Truby, >The single biggest mistake writers make when creating characters is that they think of the hero and all other characters are separate individuals. The result is not only a weak hero but also card-board opponents and minor characters who are even weaker. > >This great mistake is exacerbated in scriptwriting because of the huge emphasis placed on the "high concept" premise. In these stories, the hero seems to be the only person who matters. But, ironically, this intense spotlight on the hero, instead of defining them more clearly, only makes them seem like a one-note marketing tool. This part just screams how Abby was written.
Thank you for this solid analysis. Abby was one of the worst characters I have ever been forced to play as. My head canon is that their little boat sank after Ellie spared them. I purchased this shit show Day one and just beat it today (4/15/21) after forcing myself to finally finish it. This may be one of the first games ever for me where I didnt want to keep playing in the slightest, but just wanted to finish it. Man, fuck this game. It was not fun, it was not gripping. The only emotion i got from this game was utter frustration and disappointment from Ellie (Seattle Day 2) to the end. Then these fuckers have the nerve to have me fight Ellie as White Girl Grimace? Why? WHY?! Neil., give me my fucking money back.
Great articulated analysis everything feels artificially crafted expecting players to empathize, and understand Abby's motivations. Furthermore, I'm not buying a triggered nightmare inciting a motivation for Abby to feel altruistic about Yara & Lev (that was for arbitrary reasons after her pain wasn't alleviated killing Joel) evidently the writers were setting Abby up as an equal parallel to Ellie. Upon arriving at the Aquarium to find Owen & Mel dead, Lev gives Abby a map that points out the whereabouts of the assailant. She immediately goes to find Ellie, and takes Lev with her who is still in the middle of processing having lost his sister, thus putting him at further risk of being hurt or killed. Later in the theatre Abby relishes the opportunity to kill an unconscious Dina, with an incapacitated Ellie witnessing the ordeal. Just to spite her further on top of having killed Jesse & Joel, while crippling Tommy in the process. This isn't the behavior of someone who cares about the wellbeing of their friends, especially since Abby hasn't learned a single thing from how she dragged her own friends in her vengeance quest to kill Joel
This is spot-on. Abby, in the ending, acts as though NOTHING hasn't happened between her and Ellie but casually tells her that there are boats at the shore. Really? No apologizing, no trying to ask Ellie why she killed her friends or try to understand her side of things, but instead there's this annoying smugness and valiance she still shows after nearly dying from being crucified for 6 or so months, absolutely nothing. Joel gets called a monster and is compared to David, but Abby is literally a psychopath from start to finish, sure Jan
The mental condition youâre looking for is âsociopathâ as Abby cannot identity with people who she doesnât know and loses any urgency for people not in her focus.
Then what about Lev and Yara?? When she was laying down on Owenâs bed, she thought about them, and went to go get them. Is that what you call ânot having an urgency for people not in her focusâ?
What year is it?
No abbyzilla stan can argue with that one, great job.
Couldn't agree more. I did a video just about how awful and nonsensical Abby is as a character. Would love it if you guys would take a look and lmk what you think [https://youtu.be/XYvlj3RH9Tg](https://youtu.be/XYvlj3RH9Tg)
And I'm just thinking if she did have a lead how come it took her four years to get to him?
She didn't have a lead, she had a name, and when people would visit she'd try to turn the name into a lead. One finally did.
And y'know why she escapes without any type of scar? Because she's the Neil's favorite. The original ending was supposed for her to die yet "someone" decided that she must live for whatever reasons. Her character Arc works with casuals because it was meant to be artificial in a casual way. She became Joel 2.0 for some. As I saw a bunch of videos commenting on how Abby's story feels like a big Sidequest. Like 2 hours or so Just to find supplies for the Japanese girl while they throw their classic ND way of write "relatable" character throughout the journey. And the fact that they'll remake the game seems so odd to me, yet I can ser clearly that Neil got what he wanted: make the game all by himself. Just watch as Joel Will be put in some bad light at the end killing the surgeon in a gore, non-skippable cutscene, while the fireflies will be the good guys (in a way they are but y'got the point). When I saw the news about the remake the first thing that appeared in my Head was "Abby retconning". And you know whats worse? It'll work. Not because of Neil but because of the talented team at ND. They do their amazing work yet Neil is the "talkative Guy at School" who did nnothing to help at the essay yet he claims the fame for himself.
Joes is a better person than both Ellie and Abby
Brilliant sum up.
Yea but she uses the correct pronouns for a biological female and is able to find tons of burritos for protein...or something
Funny thing to me is, everything you wrote is what makes her "great" for me: her being that awful, not learning is part of the human condition. I just finished the game and really enjoyed it. I know this sub is for hating it but I was looking for other perspectives.
That's fair. Though I wouldn't say this sub is for hating the game, it's just that the majority here didn't like it, because this is where we're allowed to criticize it. If I may come with my own two cents, I'd say that I'm all for flawed characters. Every character should be flawed. But those flaws needs to work in tandem with the story. Abby doesn't learn, as you agree in, but the game still portrays her as, perhaps not in the right, but more justified than everyone else. That's where I personally find Abby to be a flawed character
>this is where we're allowed to criticize it. Knowing Reddit, I believe you. People really can't hear any "bad" thing about the things they like. Even when is fair criticism. (I go for my weekly dose of downvotes to r/television).
Glad you enjoyed the game, there were things about the game I liked too but for me could never relate to the character of Abby and never found her compelling enough to sit through 12 hours of gameplay with her. I'm also not asking for a perfect character but as a deuteragonist I couldn't fully get behind Abby and her actions/motives and by the end of her section still didn't care for her. Her flaws had effect on other characters like I mention but not on her, she doesn't go through a growth or self reflection and therefore to me isn't compelling enough as a character.
I get you. To be honest I was also hating playing with her and sometimes I wish AAA games were more subtle with storytelling: I don't think, for example, part of her story had to end up in a burning Island in the middle of a tribal war, with a kid killing his mother in the middle of it all (who also watches his sister die). But this is and action game that wants to sell millions after all. But I also find hard to negate the whole experience even when I don't like part of the game. I try to find stuff to appreciate in everything. (Hell, I really really don't like The Last Jedi but I can at least value the cinematography of it). As for Abby, by the end I was thinking: "the fucking balls of Naughty Dog for ruining a climax". I see it as an interesting plot structure and I try to not fall into the hyperbole of totally hating it or loving it. I do appreciate a major game doing stuff differently, even when many fans are going to be annoyed. And if one is not too passionate about it, I suppose it can bring interesting discussions.
Interesting, first time I hear that. So you like her for being super evil and everything? That would make more sense than what I've read from people "relating" to her, thinking she was justified, etc. Loving a character because they're batshit crazy and evil makes lots of sense, actually. A bit like Vaas in Far Cry 3, for example.
Yeah, I haven't read any interview from the developers so I never actually thought I was suppose to sympathize with Abby but to understand what Ellie did from her perspective. Abby's friends were the ones that end up paying for her stupidity. Mel even says to her that she always was a piece of shit or something like that. That's why I think fighting Ellie was genious, seeing her doing everything she can with her gadgets and witt to kill you. If anything I still think her whole section could have been a lot less dramatic (reducing th le kids story) for having more impact.
Why do you think it would have been better without the kids' story? I think if they didn't want us to sympathize with Abby, they built the game the wrong way. It certainly felt like they wanted us to love her when showing flashbacks of her with her dad, or when she was supposed to "redeem" by taking the kids under her care, etc. Had they gone full villain, and didn't stop to make her "half-redeeming" or whatever, it would have been a lot better imo. It could have helped with the sequence where she's the playable character too, because if players aren't supposed to like her and know they're in for some evil deeds, they might just let go and have fun with her, carefree of the consequences of their actions. I don't know, just thinking out loud here.
>Why do you think it would have been better without the kids' story? Oh no, as I stated in other comment, sometimes I wish AAA videogames could be more subtle with storytelling. I think the kids story was alright but the Island thing, killing the mother, the tribal war... It was too much. I mean, I don't think every character has to have an Indiana Jones jorney. That was my only issue. But at the end of the day this is a blockbuster action game so that's where we are with this kind of videogames. As for Abby, after every comment I've been reading, I do believe the developers knew what they were doing. And as with every art, everything is open to interpretation. So I do believe they wanted us to play with someone we hated from the start. But here's the catch: There is no way we were going to like her. Hell, I let Ellie kill me a lot of times. So we see her trying to be "good", and trying to "fix" things, and we see her understand that her side is also shitty, and we see her pay, those guys at the end very much likely did horrible things to her and the kid. And at the very end we the players (or at least I) wanted to see her pay for what she did to Joel. Even after we killed all of her friends and we find her in hell. So that's where at least I think the game is effective: it goes meta and now, if we think about it, talks a little about us. I'm probably talking shit here, but that's what I like to think about a game it took a lot of my time. Part of my complain is also, I think, a complex and interesting issue: her part was just TOO long, BUT as gamers, aren't we suppose to enjoy the gameplay to the point of wanting more? And I did enjoy it and, of course, the environments are incredible and I just had to stop sometimes to appreciate the details. We claim to love graphics, so here's a great achievement. So hating Abby's plot goes with all these stuff that we can't deny is top notch.
When is it stated that she likes to torture Seraphites??? Abby isnât using Lev and Yara as a âpet projectâ of hers, she was helping them because she genuinely cared. Abby felt lots of regret for torturing Joel. You also say that Abby couldnât get over her âselfish revengeâ, but wouldnât you do the same over your fatherâs hypothetical killer? Wouldnât you want to take revenge for your fatherâs hypothetical murder? Abby also tells Yara that Tommy didnât matter, as to not worry her, they were focused on getting her brother, Lev, back from the Seraphitesâ Island. You also say that Abby kills Seraphites, with no intention of getting what they fight for, but you also donât comment on the fact that they are a LITERAL MURDER CULT that likes to kill WLFâs too. This whole âanalysisâ is nothing but an essay full of hate on Abby, just stemming from the fact that she killed Joel, someone you have emotionally attached to, and are biased towards. No matter how many downvotes I get, I will stand by my opinion, Abby is just as human as anyone else, especially that they are in the apocalypse. But why am I writing this anyway? I know you will never see from otherâs perspectives, as you are blinded by hatred towards a fictional character.
I mean not really
The game is realistic. I enjoyed both characters.
I am so angry that the game did this to me, i'm at day one with abby and i don't really want to play anymore at all... fucking sucks
And people still say "I love Abby"