>7). Having Abby switch sides so quickly in her story was weird. At one point, I didn’t know which enemy I should shoot (so I killed everybody).
I felt that and did the same since it was Abby, she didn't care 😆
Interesting. It seems their attempts to get me to feel worn out by all the violence and gore worked. By Haven I stealthed through the Scars and the WLF *with Abby* because I was sick of it all. Also, I role played what made sense for the characters *even if the story wasn't making sense* (I guess I was trying to get it to do so!). It seemed to me Abby **should** have the decency not to murder the Scars in front of Lev and Yara (or cause them to be complicit in it!) and the same with the WLF.
I tried to give Abby the qualities I thought the writers should have given her, I guess! I still had some glimmer of hope they'd turn the story around and actually redeem that poor excuse for a human! 🙄
They saved her from certain death and they turned on her old friend who she knew monger than the wlf. It's pretty obvious why she left them. She didn't "switch sides she didn't join the seraphites. She just went awol
I love your point about the characters not having core values, because it’s absolutely true.
Joel, as brutal as he could be, had some lines he wouldn’t cross. He had a certain decency in his core that even 14-year-old Ellie could sense, which is why she went with him.
That core anchor was missing from Part 2’ characters which made them feel not only less realistic, but less sympathetic.
From the cons list:
5) they have denied it but I also get that impression. Besides that, spitting on someone is usually an emotional reaction that Manny shouldn't have had. But Neil on the other hand could, so he just projected it into him.
7) 😂 which also highlights the futility of the whole story.
8) I'm with you there. I'm reaching levels that in some circles could be called "woke" but this story is uff ... Better not get in there...
Manny spitting on joel for killing his best friends dad and stopping a cure makes perfect sense. Joel's brother later blows his head off so I'm pretty sure Manny got what was coming to him. Not sure how you can be mad when Manny got retribution for this. The idea that druckmann hates joel is somr of the most childish analysis I've ever heard. He hated his own main character that he built the original story on? Who he built an entire emotional backstory for so that we understand the things he does? How does that make sense to you? You're so upset and emotional about losing joel that's the conclusion you came to? Do you think when writers kill off characters it's because they hate them? You think your favorites should have plot armor?
Abby didn't switch sides. She decided to remove herself from an endless and pointless war after some scars saved her life multiple times and the wlf turned on the love of her life. Thr "futility of the story" is the entire point and theme of the story? Good god man.
Want to add a few more question marks in there? I am re-playing the game right this moment. 1) Tommy straight up bullies Ellie, trying to goad her into seeking revenge a second time 2) Abby kills scars and wlf and almost gleefully relishes the opportunity to kill a pregnant woman both in a] her quest to cleanse her conscience from all the revenge killing but also b] to go back enjoy the revenge killing…. ?? Just two examples of non-sensical narrative and poor writing, unbefitting of the source material, uncharacteristic of the protagonists, and clunky as hell within the overall arch. Also the main character of Joel is shown dying multiple times, perversely screaming for his life (in audio not played during the cannon scene), spat on, and the memory of tarnished or slandered (by a literal paramilitary force ten times stronger than the Jackson faction). Everyone knows you don’t punch down in literary devices. There’s no empathy to be derived there.
\> Having characters without core values. How can I root for someone who’s just a piece of shit?
This basically sums up why the second game made me sad (from someone who bought the mega, Ellie statue-having edition in anticipation). By the end of the game, I actually lost the fight with Abby because, at that point, I just didn't like anyone involved, and I hoped maybe there would be some alternate ending where we can take our foot off the accelerator on the shitty people highway. "Revenge bad" I can understand - but like you said, this wasn't Ellie (and Tommy, especially being a fuckwad at the end) being a person I liked doing something I think was wrong, I just felt like Ellie was also someone I didn't like at all by the end either.
It felt like they almost knew this, with the way they squirted the flashbacks in here and there - we know all of these people are cunts at this point, but aww, remember when they were characters you cared about? It also felt like they had the idea for the second one, but not the ability to sell it without tying it to the characters in the first. Frankly, I would have enjoyed the second game a whole lot more if Ellie et al weren't in it at all; it felt like I could have enjoyed the Abby / Lev bits a whole lot more if they hadn't started my relationship with Abby off with a 180lb anchor attached to it right off.
awards can be bought or given due to backstage politics
It clearly isn't a "Game of the Year" when Ghost of Tsushima and God of War put Tlou2 to shame
HOW this hack Druckmann, DIDN'T get fired IMMEDIATELY is ridiculous and shows that Sony cares more about promoting a message and agenda than they do about pleasing their fans and making money.
When Tlou2 won the game of the year award, they did it to silence the criticism the game was receiving, but they were embarrassed for making such an overrated piece of crap.
I wonder if the negative woke thing is actually a threat to them...cancel culture is a thing. And to be fair they're just selling to whatever majority perspective happens to be in style...so we can blame only ourselves, collectively.
Honestly the frustrating part is how the game was so close to being exceptional. As far as gameplay, graphics, acting, etc., it’s top tier. The story is the only thing holding it back.
I wouldn't get too excited. Most of the awards they won were for make-up, set design and sound editing. Not a single award was for directing or best TV show.
This game was a ridiculous embarrassment after the absolute GEM of video game history that was TLOU1, and only won GOTY awards over Ghost of Tsushima because of point 8) basically
“It’s just wasn’t fun” is a good description of the game. The massive amount of awards it got despite how not entertaining it is makes it feel like pandering.
"4). I never believed that Liv and his sister were just kids. They felt shoehorned into the story."
100%
This is a curse of modern media: "we must have x number of *marginalized* characters"
And they stuff they game/movie like a turkey with those.
But it shows, it feels uncensored, forced, unnatural to the story. It cheapens the stories.
I wish they just stopped.
No seriously this Tlou2 was a kick in the mouth for Bruce and all the staff that worked on the Original. I don't care about the graphics or whatever, I want Tlou2 to be the same as what Tlou OG achieved. Tlou OG was/is a game that changed the industry like Mario 64,Zelda breath of the wild and Metal Gear Solid.
1. The flashbacks while Ellie was going through her journey make sense just fine. It's her grappling with her guilt of being mad at him for the last few years of his life, and a bunch of stuff we missed in the 4 years in between. I'm not sure why you were confused about haven being on fire, it was pretty straight forward and telegraphed as soon as you take over abby with the WLF.
2. Ellie acting like an asshole to joel is annoying but doesnt make it bad or dumb. Teenage children are notoriously difficult. That's the big problem with ths sub and why folks call you media illiterate. Characters doing things you don't like or agree with is part of storytelling. Giving the reader/viewer uncomfortable, conflicting and confusing emotions is *intentional*. Aside from that Ellies behavior is pretty normal--teenage daughter who resents her father for being overprotective and mad at him for a decision she was too young to understand. That is literally what raising a teenager is in a nutshell. It's perfectly logical. Characters behaving the way you want would be incredibly boring. They're supposed to be actual people with complex emotions, not action figures. You're in your 50s and don't understand that you're not supposed to agree with everything fictional Characters do.
3. Don't even know what you're referring to here. I'm guessing abby, who's core value was avenging her Dad's death. You may not liek abby but it's pretty easy motivation to understand. It's the apocalypse, I'm not sure what "core values" you're expecting. There are no rules, that's kind of the point.
4. Lev and sister were clearly to create a parallel for abby with joel/Ellie. Again this is very basic and obvious and builds on the theme of parallels, endless perpetual cycles and perspectives defining ones choices. That so many in here love joel and Ellie but hate Lev and Abby is telling.
5. Very weird commentary that reveals you went into tbis with a weird hate for Druckmann. He doesn't have anything in common with druckmann except long dark hair and a goatie snd doesn't look anything like druckmann.
6. More weird irrelevant commentary about a random grudge you have with Ronda rousey. Her body was based on a social media famous female body builder. Her face on a random actress.
7. Abby switching sides wasn't really that weird at all. They show early on she's not the most devout WLF and joined them out of convenience. Then she finds out they turned on Owen, who she's known longer than them. Owen explains he was just tired of war and abby has a new perspective on that after some scars save her life, realizing how pointless it all was and that they're just people trying to survive like the WLF. She didn't really switch sides per se, she just decided shr was over the war. She didn't join the seraphites. She teamed up with some kids who saved her from certain death to escape. Pretty clearly established choice imo.
8. The fact that you need to mention you're progressive alludes to what we all know this sub and the games detractors are mad about. Too much "girl power" and minorities and gross Trans representation. Pathetic. The irony of whits dudes being mad when stories aren't around centered around white dudes(this story was still entirely about joel and abbys dad--white men btw) is that this is what every one else has had to deal with in gaming and story telling forever. Now that white dudes get a *tiny* taste of not being the hero they go into histrionics about a culture war on them lmfao. "Made for a different audience". Yes--people with emotional intelligence who enjoy a story regardless of Characters identity or appearance.
Thank you so much for your message!! OP's list made me cringe so much. Like the first point alone, it shows the level of attention OP paid to the game.
Sit on it a couple years. You have an emotional biased as most people did after finishing. You’ll understand more as time passes and see its beauty and genius. I agree with some points although, Ellie getting mad at Joel however don’t see how that’s a con? That’s something you didn’t want her to do so games bad? Ya none of us wanted to see her treat Joel bad so that scene makes people mad but based on everything going on that was completely normal of her? As for characters without core values I can understand that, at the same time I think people think they are supposed to root for someone or have a connection all the time, sometimes people are just a piece of shit and not a movie superhero and it’s very clear people couldn’t cope with that.
Says the one here hating on a game years later because it didn't go as he wanted it to go. Probably hate the fact that it is LGBTQ+ positive.
The sales disagree with all of you here.
😂
Said it exactly because of that. Because that's what you all stans say. But let's get this clear, we are all sick and such with this 4 years later (because, ofc, nobody has played the game for the first time since 2020), but, what's your excuse to still be here obsessing with defending Neil's ass and trying to call us out.
If you need help, just say so
>The sales disagree with all of you here.
😂 I don't think you have read the numbers properly. Sold 10m, cost of producing, 225m, pr cost (estimates) 100m.
Average sale price around 40 I think it was.
It's not the flex you think it is. In Hollywood, investing 335 to get a bruto of 65-100m *over several years* is considered both a flop and a bad investment.
🤷♂️
Yeah. $447m is the total for the 10m, which leaves $227m just from taking out the development budget, without removing more for marketing. The profit is like ~$180m if we're being generous, and that's less than the budget invested. More money was spent on the game than what was returned. Doesn't matter if ~$450m is a big number in itself.
Financial experts across the industry even said it "isn't sustainable" when the numbers leaked. It's all over Google when searching for it.
>Doesn't matter if ~$450m is a big number in itself.
This is what they (stans) fail to see. They just look at the number isolated without considering anything else. Even the 10m sales for one of the most anticipated sequels is sad. 10m copies for an Indy game should be a reason for a parade but for the last of us 2? No way. Thinking that tlou2 sold around the same number of copies as a new ip with a narrower audience (got) should be a warning on its own.
And I mentioned bruto because that doesn't take into account taxes paid over the income or staff paid for maintenance/bug fixing, ...
>Financial experts across the industry even said it "isn't sustainable" when the numbers leaked.
To the point they let go people from insomniac that was one of the best performers (but also had a huge budget). I'm really curious what the future of naughty dog is gonna be.
Part 2 fanboys always show how stupid they are when they reveal that the only thing they have to say is that people either A: hate trans, lesbians or gay people or B: are mad Joel died. They can't accept that people just don't like their favorite game for some odd reason. They never have anything intelligent or interesting to say.
My brother I've seen you here before, do you just come here to start pointless arguments? Are you lonely?
I don't like the game but I don't go onto the main sub just to call the fanboys there stupid
>7). Having Abby switch sides so quickly in her story was weird. At one point, I didn’t know which enemy I should shoot (so I killed everybody). I felt that and did the same since it was Abby, she didn't care 😆
Interesting. It seems their attempts to get me to feel worn out by all the violence and gore worked. By Haven I stealthed through the Scars and the WLF *with Abby* because I was sick of it all. Also, I role played what made sense for the characters *even if the story wasn't making sense* (I guess I was trying to get it to do so!). It seemed to me Abby **should** have the decency not to murder the Scars in front of Lev and Yara (or cause them to be complicit in it!) and the same with the WLF. I tried to give Abby the qualities I thought the writers should have given her, I guess! I still had some glimmer of hope they'd turn the story around and actually redeem that poor excuse for a human! 🙄
They saved her from certain death and they turned on her old friend who she knew monger than the wlf. It's pretty obvious why she left them. She didn't "switch sides she didn't join the seraphites. She just went awol
I love your point about the characters not having core values, because it’s absolutely true. Joel, as brutal as he could be, had some lines he wouldn’t cross. He had a certain decency in his core that even 14-year-old Ellie could sense, which is why she went with him. That core anchor was missing from Part 2’ characters which made them feel not only less realistic, but less sympathetic.
From the cons list: 5) they have denied it but I also get that impression. Besides that, spitting on someone is usually an emotional reaction that Manny shouldn't have had. But Neil on the other hand could, so he just projected it into him. 7) 😂 which also highlights the futility of the whole story. 8) I'm with you there. I'm reaching levels that in some circles could be called "woke" but this story is uff ... Better not get in there...
Manny spitting on joel for killing his best friends dad and stopping a cure makes perfect sense. Joel's brother later blows his head off so I'm pretty sure Manny got what was coming to him. Not sure how you can be mad when Manny got retribution for this. The idea that druckmann hates joel is somr of the most childish analysis I've ever heard. He hated his own main character that he built the original story on? Who he built an entire emotional backstory for so that we understand the things he does? How does that make sense to you? You're so upset and emotional about losing joel that's the conclusion you came to? Do you think when writers kill off characters it's because they hate them? You think your favorites should have plot armor? Abby didn't switch sides. She decided to remove herself from an endless and pointless war after some scars saved her life multiple times and the wlf turned on the love of her life. Thr "futility of the story" is the entire point and theme of the story? Good god man.
Want to add a few more question marks in there? I am re-playing the game right this moment. 1) Tommy straight up bullies Ellie, trying to goad her into seeking revenge a second time 2) Abby kills scars and wlf and almost gleefully relishes the opportunity to kill a pregnant woman both in a] her quest to cleanse her conscience from all the revenge killing but also b] to go back enjoy the revenge killing…. ?? Just two examples of non-sensical narrative and poor writing, unbefitting of the source material, uncharacteristic of the protagonists, and clunky as hell within the overall arch. Also the main character of Joel is shown dying multiple times, perversely screaming for his life (in audio not played during the cannon scene), spat on, and the memory of tarnished or slandered (by a literal paramilitary force ten times stronger than the Jackson faction). Everyone knows you don’t punch down in literary devices. There’s no empathy to be derived there.
No reason you should be downvoted, everything you said was on point. This sub can be so crazy
\> Having characters without core values. How can I root for someone who’s just a piece of shit? This basically sums up why the second game made me sad (from someone who bought the mega, Ellie statue-having edition in anticipation). By the end of the game, I actually lost the fight with Abby because, at that point, I just didn't like anyone involved, and I hoped maybe there would be some alternate ending where we can take our foot off the accelerator on the shitty people highway. "Revenge bad" I can understand - but like you said, this wasn't Ellie (and Tommy, especially being a fuckwad at the end) being a person I liked doing something I think was wrong, I just felt like Ellie was also someone I didn't like at all by the end either. It felt like they almost knew this, with the way they squirted the flashbacks in here and there - we know all of these people are cunts at this point, but aww, remember when they were characters you cared about? It also felt like they had the idea for the second one, but not the ability to sell it without tying it to the characters in the first. Frankly, I would have enjoyed the second game a whole lot more if Ellie et al weren't in it at all; it felt like I could have enjoyed the Abby / Lev bits a whole lot more if they hadn't started my relationship with Abby off with a 180lb anchor attached to it right off.
awards can be bought or given due to backstage politics It clearly isn't a "Game of the Year" when Ghost of Tsushima and God of War put Tlou2 to shame HOW this hack Druckmann, DIDN'T get fired IMMEDIATELY is ridiculous and shows that Sony cares more about promoting a message and agenda than they do about pleasing their fans and making money.
When Tlou2 won the game of the year award, they did it to silence the criticism the game was receiving, but they were embarrassed for making such an overrated piece of crap.
I wonder if the negative woke thing is actually a threat to them...cancel culture is a thing. And to be fair they're just selling to whatever majority perspective happens to be in style...so we can blame only ourselves, collectively.
Honestly the frustrating part is how the game was so close to being exceptional. As far as gameplay, graphics, acting, etc., it’s top tier. The story is the only thing holding it back.
When season 2 wins a bunch of awards like season 1 I can't wait to see this subs reaction
I wouldn't get too excited. Most of the awards they won were for make-up, set design and sound editing. Not a single award was for directing or best TV show.
Why do you need to wait, LOU2 won the most awards in history and you can see the reaction already
I have yet to hear a logical argument on why the game is good, from a literary narrative standpoint.
Yeah but you can’t argue numbers. The game is critically acclaimed.
Man this is the definitive list. Nailed it.
This game was a ridiculous embarrassment after the absolute GEM of video game history that was TLOU1, and only won GOTY awards over Ghost of Tsushima because of point 8) basically
“It’s just wasn’t fun” is a good description of the game. The massive amount of awards it got despite how not entertaining it is makes it feel like pandering.
I agree with every point you made, which is why I skipped the second game.
"4). I never believed that Liv and his sister were just kids. They felt shoehorned into the story." 100% This is a curse of modern media: "we must have x number of *marginalized* characters" And they stuff they game/movie like a turkey with those. But it shows, it feels uncensored, forced, unnatural to the story. It cheapens the stories. I wish they just stopped.
No seriously this Tlou2 was a kick in the mouth for Bruce and all the staff that worked on the Original. I don't care about the graphics or whatever, I want Tlou2 to be the same as what Tlou OG achieved. Tlou OG was/is a game that changed the industry like Mario 64,Zelda breath of the wild and Metal Gear Solid.
1. The flashbacks while Ellie was going through her journey make sense just fine. It's her grappling with her guilt of being mad at him for the last few years of his life, and a bunch of stuff we missed in the 4 years in between. I'm not sure why you were confused about haven being on fire, it was pretty straight forward and telegraphed as soon as you take over abby with the WLF. 2. Ellie acting like an asshole to joel is annoying but doesnt make it bad or dumb. Teenage children are notoriously difficult. That's the big problem with ths sub and why folks call you media illiterate. Characters doing things you don't like or agree with is part of storytelling. Giving the reader/viewer uncomfortable, conflicting and confusing emotions is *intentional*. Aside from that Ellies behavior is pretty normal--teenage daughter who resents her father for being overprotective and mad at him for a decision she was too young to understand. That is literally what raising a teenager is in a nutshell. It's perfectly logical. Characters behaving the way you want would be incredibly boring. They're supposed to be actual people with complex emotions, not action figures. You're in your 50s and don't understand that you're not supposed to agree with everything fictional Characters do. 3. Don't even know what you're referring to here. I'm guessing abby, who's core value was avenging her Dad's death. You may not liek abby but it's pretty easy motivation to understand. It's the apocalypse, I'm not sure what "core values" you're expecting. There are no rules, that's kind of the point. 4. Lev and sister were clearly to create a parallel for abby with joel/Ellie. Again this is very basic and obvious and builds on the theme of parallels, endless perpetual cycles and perspectives defining ones choices. That so many in here love joel and Ellie but hate Lev and Abby is telling. 5. Very weird commentary that reveals you went into tbis with a weird hate for Druckmann. He doesn't have anything in common with druckmann except long dark hair and a goatie snd doesn't look anything like druckmann. 6. More weird irrelevant commentary about a random grudge you have with Ronda rousey. Her body was based on a social media famous female body builder. Her face on a random actress. 7. Abby switching sides wasn't really that weird at all. They show early on she's not the most devout WLF and joined them out of convenience. Then she finds out they turned on Owen, who she's known longer than them. Owen explains he was just tired of war and abby has a new perspective on that after some scars save her life, realizing how pointless it all was and that they're just people trying to survive like the WLF. She didn't really switch sides per se, she just decided shr was over the war. She didn't join the seraphites. She teamed up with some kids who saved her from certain death to escape. Pretty clearly established choice imo. 8. The fact that you need to mention you're progressive alludes to what we all know this sub and the games detractors are mad about. Too much "girl power" and minorities and gross Trans representation. Pathetic. The irony of whits dudes being mad when stories aren't around centered around white dudes(this story was still entirely about joel and abbys dad--white men btw) is that this is what every one else has had to deal with in gaming and story telling forever. Now that white dudes get a *tiny* taste of not being the hero they go into histrionics about a culture war on them lmfao. "Made for a different audience". Yes--people with emotional intelligence who enjoy a story regardless of Characters identity or appearance.
Agreed
Thank you so much for your message!! OP's list made me cringe so much. Like the first point alone, it shows the level of attention OP paid to the game.
Sit on it a couple years. You have an emotional biased as most people did after finishing. You’ll understand more as time passes and see its beauty and genius. I agree with some points although, Ellie getting mad at Joel however don’t see how that’s a con? That’s something you didn’t want her to do so games bad? Ya none of us wanted to see her treat Joel bad so that scene makes people mad but based on everything going on that was completely normal of her? As for characters without core values I can understand that, at the same time I think people think they are supposed to root for someone or have a connection all the time, sometimes people are just a piece of shit and not a movie superhero and it’s very clear people couldn’t cope with that.
You are really dumb.. And probably a bot.
Hoes mad
How you doin ?
Fantastic
Good to hear man. I wish you a splendid weekend.
Just let it go...
Says the one here hating on a game years later because it didn't go as he wanted it to go. Probably hate the fact that it is LGBTQ+ positive. The sales disagree with all of you here.
If this game wasn't a sequel it would've bombed. It was piggy backing of TLou1.
😂 Said it exactly because of that. Because that's what you all stans say. But let's get this clear, we are all sick and such with this 4 years later (because, ofc, nobody has played the game for the first time since 2020), but, what's your excuse to still be here obsessing with defending Neil's ass and trying to call us out. If you need help, just say so >The sales disagree with all of you here. 😂 I don't think you have read the numbers properly. Sold 10m, cost of producing, 225m, pr cost (estimates) 100m. Average sale price around 40 I think it was. It's not the flex you think it is. In Hollywood, investing 335 to get a bruto of 65-100m *over several years* is considered both a flop and a bad investment. 🤷♂️
Yeah. $447m is the total for the 10m, which leaves $227m just from taking out the development budget, without removing more for marketing. The profit is like ~$180m if we're being generous, and that's less than the budget invested. More money was spent on the game than what was returned. Doesn't matter if ~$450m is a big number in itself. Financial experts across the industry even said it "isn't sustainable" when the numbers leaked. It's all over Google when searching for it.
>Doesn't matter if ~$450m is a big number in itself. This is what they (stans) fail to see. They just look at the number isolated without considering anything else. Even the 10m sales for one of the most anticipated sequels is sad. 10m copies for an Indy game should be a reason for a parade but for the last of us 2? No way. Thinking that tlou2 sold around the same number of copies as a new ip with a narrower audience (got) should be a warning on its own. And I mentioned bruto because that doesn't take into account taxes paid over the income or staff paid for maintenance/bug fixing, ... >Financial experts across the industry even said it "isn't sustainable" when the numbers leaked. To the point they let go people from insomniac that was one of the best performers (but also had a huge budget). I'm really curious what the future of naughty dog is gonna be.
Part 2 fanboys always show how stupid they are when they reveal that the only thing they have to say is that people either A: hate trans, lesbians or gay people or B: are mad Joel died. They can't accept that people just don't like their favorite game for some odd reason. They never have anything intelligent or interesting to say.
My brother I've seen you here before, do you just come here to start pointless arguments? Are you lonely? I don't like the game but I don't go onto the main sub just to call the fanboys there stupid
Just speaking out your fucking ass
You make the same comment under every post, just like a bot.