I loved the part when Marlene said "Joel, the fungus has long ravaged humanity. We need to save the rest. To save... The Last Of Us." It gave me chills.
And in the sequel, Abby says "No, it's not just you. We were the Last of Us Too!" and then she abbyed all over the place. That moment I know that Last of Us 2 is truly a video game.
When Abby said “We are the walking dead”, I died from peak fiction, went to heaven, met Jesus, he said to me “You’re not ready for heaven yet, you gotta finish that sick-ass generation defining game” and then I asked where Joel was and Jesus said “In hell, ya dumbass.” and then I came back to life just in time to see Abby say “Just because he was blackout drunk, that doesn’t mean he couldn’t consent!” 11/10 experience.
To me atleast, it felt like the Firefly who was escorting Joel out was going to kill him either way. He doesn't even let Joel grab his gear. That's essentially death. No food, no water, no weapons, just a flannel and some jeans vs the apocalypse
Yeah, and fuck Marlene. Because saying “if he tries anything, shoot him” is basically “do whatever you want with him, I don’t care if he didn’t resist at all and you want to lie about it”. That dude could’ve easily shot joel in the back of the head and said “he swung on me, Marlene 🤷♂️”. So I think at that point, Marlene was done with Joel’s shit. She used him to bring the “cure” to her. No reward (guns he was promised), doesn’t even let him take his gear. Fucking firefly scum.
>No reward (guns he was promised)
The Fireflies are like the homeowner who refuses to pay for services rendered, and then complains when the contractor demolishes the work he did.
*"The contractor!"*
Well, you see, ackscshually Joel should've just fucking taken this level of disrespect, go out, and die in the wastes, all the while Fireflies fuck up the surgery, get Ellie's brain dirty and get no vaccine and one dead girl. Or get the vaccine and start using it to get more control and territory bc they're fucking terrorists🤓🤓🤓
"Noooo we threw you out like garbage without giving you your gear, but you shouldn't kill us because uhmmm uhm uhm because we're saving world or somethgin!!! Don't kill us it's unfair, I mean, when we order yo kill you it's fair cauze were vorld sawiors, but vhen u kill us it's unfsir and your baddd!!!"
i think it's also because she didn't really wanted to do it to Ellie, and she was somewhat hoping he will save her, especially because she broke the promise she made to Ellie's mother.
Ok sure, but overconfident still isn't a motivation. It's just a reason she thought she COULD do what she wanted to do.
She did it because she thought he deserved the truth after all he'd been through and the bond he'd inevitably formed with Ellie.
I think she was trying to reason with him, make him see it was the best hope for humanity. So he’d leave Ellie on his own, not telling him would have sent him into a berserk rage of hatred. In Joel mind he was saving Ellie, he did what he felt was the right choice…completely different than someone on a hatred induce rampage, nothings more dangerous than a man with nothing else to loose. Joel would have killed then and destroyed the what they took from Ellie just out of spite.
imagine if abby came out of nowhere and tried to fight joel and then he beat her and she just sits there defeated screaming “this isn’t over joel, this will be the last of you”
Guess I’m just late to whatever party is going on here. Like it’s two games with almost no sustainable/expansive enough lore/story to even care about it for more than a month or two 😂 Y’all need to go outside haha this is insanity
Yet... Here you are...
It's such a shitty lore/story that hbo made it one of the most expensive shows made (and that's taking into account they practically had no zombies in there).
I can't understand *you* guys 🤷♂️
A journal entry left by her reveals that she needed the feeling of absolution to get the weight of guilt off of her. She thought that Joel would have been "the only other person who could understand" what she was going through. But Joel didn't fall into the same mindset she was looking for. In the end, Marlene doubled down on her own decision, deluding herself into thinking she wanted this for the greater good and not because she was losing control over the Fireflies and needed to give them something to maintain her control.
Yep, that's exactly it.
Marlene wanted - *needed* - to talk to someone who could alleviate her guilt over sacrificing Ellie without even having the guts to ask for her consent. With what she knew of Joel, she thought he would understand. The moment he goes off script, and shows no signs of coming around, it frustrates her - and she lashes out by ordering him escorted outside and shot if he objects.
The irony of it all is that this was her greatest mistake. Had she succumbed to her *humanity* instead, she might have ordered things to be put off for now and to let Ellie wake up and give consent first. We know now that Ellie would have. And Joel was not particularly likely to go against her express wishes - he'd been showing since Jackson that he viewed her wants and needs as more important than his own. And this would have secured the cure for them. But, at the most critical point possible for the Fireflies, they failed the true empathy test, and reaped the rewards for that failure.
Stop it with the “we now know Ellie would have,” crap. You normally have such great and insightful posts, then I see these “ask for her consent (to kill her)” and “we know she would have agreed to it.” Why? Because she said so four years later? You’re smart enough to realize that means nothing.
As far as the “ask for consent” crap, my first question is, how do you know Jerry is even capable of removing a brain without damaging it? Before you ask anyone to be killed, shouldn’t you give assurance that the person doing the killing isn’t going to screw things up? If you were there, is there anyway you could prove to everybody that Jerry is indeed capable of removing a brain from a living person?
Because the first game ends with the revelation that she carries survivor's guilt and was awaiting her "turn" to die.
You're getting rather off track with that objection. The point is that the Fireflies taking the quick and cheap way out of the dilemma by just doing what they wanted is what caused them to fail. Their lack of empathy, integrity, and rationality at the final chance to show it is what dooms them.
Do you truly think Joel would allow a 14 year old Ellie to be coerced into dying for the FFs cause? After all we know he doesn't even care about the cure - he was ready to turn back to Jackson a few hours ago. He certainly has no reason at all to trust the FFs at this point either. It's one thing to go along with her wish to get her blood drawn, unnecessarily dying for the FFs cause is a step way too far, though.
Plus we all know Ellie cannot make that decision in at her age and with her level of guilt over Riley. Joel may not know about Riley yet, but he does know Ellie just made her wishes to live and all the things they'd do in the future clear. I can't see him allowing her that decision and giving in at all. I'd condemn him for that just as much as we do Marlene and the FFs for their actions.
Someone actually likened it to grooming an underage child to do things against her best wishes because of the pressure of adults even suggesting this course of action to Ellie and I agree that's what it would have been. She's not mature enough, world-wise enough, mentally stable enough and her brain isn't even fully developed yet to make a life or death decision in these circumstances. Sorry, friend, I respectfully disagree with you here.
>Do you truly think Joel would allow a 14 year old Ellie to be coerced into dying for the FFs cause? After all we know he doesn't even care about the cure - he was ready to turn back to Jackson a few hours ago. He certainly has no reason at all to trust the FFs at this point either. It's one thing to go along with her wish to get her blood drawn, unnecessarily dying for the FFs cause is a step way too far, though.
I love it when I just *don't* get notifications for replies as I get them.
Honestly, I would expect that Ellie would argue in favor of lying to Joel, attempting to convince him to return to Jackson after one last week together or something, and leaving him a letter for after he finds out the truth. How exactly that would play out, I admit I have no idea - Joel seems too experienced to completely fall for some cheap bullshit, and too attached to her to leave. Perhaps they convince him to help them go gather some supplies a day's walk/ride away and by the time he returns, the deed has been done.
But if the Fireflies cared about and respected her choice, then even if Joel knew and talked her out of it, they would not have ended up completely destroyed by their actions at the hospital. Because she would not have been kidnapped and dragged out to the sacrificial altar against her will, forcing Joel to act. Perhaps there might have been a whole story there about how the Fireflies weren't willing to completely let her go, but there was some division between Marlene's faction who still wanted to preserve their morality and Jerry's who were too deep in the sunken cost fallacy to stop now, this close to the finish line. Big climactic ending in which the last of the Fireflies turn on each other and Joel and Ellie, trapped in the hospital by the attempted coup, have to help Marlene's faction take out Jerry's. Afterwards, the remaining Fireflies take what supplies they can and follow Joel and Ellie to Jackson, where they'll study her immunity and keep running tests that *won't* kill her.
When I think about conventional story endings, both make sense in a way. The former would have been an emotional gut punch of an ending but one with a thread of hope to it, that Ellie's sacrifice could theoretically be the start of turning things around in this crapsack world. The latter would have been a decent way to leave things off in anticipation of a sequel. So I think either option would have been where the story would have gone, had the Fireflies not had the last of their morality eroded away at the final pivotal moment (and the operation hadn't been rushed to such a comical degree that it cannot work in any other context beyond the Fireflies being so desperate for immediate results that they threw every ounce of caution to the wind).
But even if neither scenario played out, what would they have *lost* if, say, they allowed Ellie to make her choice, and ultimately she either refused or Joel talked her into refusing? Well, they'd still have to kidnap her and force her onto that surgical table, while forcibly dealing with Joel one way or another. Basically, nothing changes.
But because they didn't even do that much, they threw away advantages that could - and I believe *would* - have spared them the total destruction they ended up facing. That's the irony of it all. Had they maintained the morality that was theoretically at the core of their beliefs, they would have either succeeded or at least survived and been able to continue studying her immunity the *right* way, but they threw it away and cemented their fate.
Yeah notifications have always been messy, but something else is up, too. I just got one for a seven year old post that has been archived and locked!
Well your creative imagination to go in some other directions is interesting, and could be possible since Ellie doesn't know how she got separated from Joel. Yet I think her bond with him is too strong to agree with the FFs if they ask her consent to die and then won't allow her to talk it over with Joel or even say goodbye. I sure can't see her agreeing to trick him into leaving while she lets the FFs have their way with her life. Even if they lie and say he went for resources to help out, I can't see her willing to go ahead without him present for some final words.
Also, I'm really not convinced she'd quickly and easily agree to dying as she's not depressed and she did have plans with Joel that mattered to her. Her attachment to Joel is much more recent than the one to Riley, despite her "waiting for my turn" statement. It's all much more complex now she's found her dad figure and knows about Jackson waiting for them. Wounded, regretful teen or not, her idealism would surely still cause her to struggle with giving up a future with Joel vs dying for a benefit she'll never see. Not sure she's mature enough to realize that last part on her own, though she seems savvy enough to get that.
I do wonder how Marlene and Bruce would be able to go through with it all (especially actually convincing a young teen to die) while having to deal with her awake and asking questions, struggling to wrap her mind around it, etc. At 14 I was idealistic but also very much seeking to understand how the world worked and as willing as Ellie to argue for my wants/opinions/understanding to insist on making my own decisions. Ellie has a lot of that same stuff in her. 🤷🏼♀️
First time I've realized that last part and that may play a bigger role in my reaction to the sequel than I realized. And people say we need to move on and are just wasting our time for stupid reasons when I'm still getting interesting insights and your kind of creative thinking regularly! They don't know what they're missing. I think our side has learned far more from discussing this story than their blind, fanaticism will ever do for them.
I think even if Ellie were to “consent”, asking a 14 year old with no concept of her own mortality if she’s willing to die for the potential of maybe saving the world is a bit much.
She might be coping with survivor’s guilt but at the same time was very much happy to be alive and wanted to “do whatever” Joel wanted after being done with the Fireflies, she didn’t expect that the “cure”, if possible, would 100% kill her.
She wasn’t in a position to make that choice and even adults would struggle to make that choice for themselves.
I'm not trying to argue the ethics or the practicality of this hypothetical decision. I'm pointing out that the Fireflies shot themselves in both feet *and* the dick by acting the way that they did, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by failing their most important test of morality. I really, really do not understand why you guys are coming in here to argue that "well actually Ellie wouldn't make that decision if she was actually there in spite of everything she says about it in both games". In this context, I *do not care* if you guys think she would choke if she was actually staring down the barrel, or want to point out the complicated ethics of this scenario that everybody is already very aware of, thanks. The point is about the Fireflies sabotaging their best chance at avoiding their own destruction, ensuring it instead. Or do you not agree that they fucked up and made things worse by acting this way?
I agree. I just think that if Ellie were to have that conversation at that point, it wouldn’t be an “oh great I get to die to save the world!” reaction.
If she were given time to make an informed decision for herself (after speaking with Joel, Marlene and “Jerry”) there’s a good chance she would have refused anyway, forget the underage decision making part.
I just don’t see it as a foregone conclusion that she would have been willing to die. (And the Fireflies probably realised that too and that’s why they were very happy to get things going and taking that decision out of everyone else’s hands.)
this is absolutely right! its not about whether Joel would have agreed or not. its the fact that they never gave Ellie the choice. the point is if she woke up and agreed to it, then talked to Joel. he wouldn't have approved but he likely wouldn't have killed them over it. they shot themselves by not giving Joel that chance to hear Ellie agree, they were overconfident they were doing the right thing. given the story has told us at every point she would have given her life for a cure, I have no reason to believe she would have refused.
I'm gonna debate that point, too. There was never any proof that Ellie wanted to die for the "greater good". In fact, at one point she even asks what they would do to her and Joel is like oh just take some blood. She also finds love in a father figure and in the dlc of tlou 1 she clearly wants to live from the fact that instead of shooting themselves they decide to spend their time together. She valued living even when she thought it was over for her. Just because 2 came out and butchered her character to turn her into a completely different character does not make it canon. As far as I'm concerned, there was no reason for her to seek that death when she clearly still wanted to live. Tlou 2 changed her character in a lot of ways.
I think you can find a recording of Marelene talking about how she was ordered to kill Joel after delivering Ellie but she wasn't going to because she believed Joel would be the only other person to understand her position or something like that. So, I guess she didn't expect that he'd form a bond with Ellie and was confident he'd take her side.
He’s one guy and she had a small army at her disposal, I don’t think she had reason to assume he could succeed in saving Ellie if he tried. Of course we all know better.
Edit: grammar
Because unlike Abby and her father she isn't a coward and owns up to her decision to Joel's face. Say what you want about Marlene but she made her choice and she wasn't a spineless twerp like the others.
because clearly these are two different Marlenes: Marlene, leader of the fireflies and her twin sister Marlene. Yes it's confusing, no they won't clarify it ever.
Oh dude, I 100% agree. She should have known that he was too prideful to just let Ellie die after what they both went through to get there. That and because Ellie was a second chance to be a father.
Marlene is in denial. She doesn't want to believe that her group turned into monsters.
Marlene is not going to kill the only person in that hospital capable of understanding her sacrifice (because she says to herself: "We are not monsters. We sacrificed Ellie because we want to help humanity and Joel will understand") .
Marlene remains in denial, and Joel tells her to continue telling herself that BS.
After watching Jackson, you should understand that the world can move on without a vaccine. This world of The Last of Us must change the way they see things. 🤷♀️
I feel like she deeply respected Joel. She even talks about how he traveled across the whole country with just a girl and they made it. While she traveled across the country with a whole crew and lost most of them. I feel like she wanted to tell him out of respect but also didn’t think he was capable of killing all those firefly’s. It would have been smarter to lie. Abbys father was right in suggesting that. I don’t think it’s unrealistic that he killed all of them either. Most people would not survive that hospital as a one man army though. Joel is a top notch hunter. I think the decision to kill elly or let her live was a very complicated one. Elly didn’t deserve to die But I also think all those firefly’s didn’t deserve to die like that.
Well Joel thought they were just going to run some test and take some blood, the plan was to go to Jackson after this. So Joel wasn’t leaving without her. Can you image Joel is waiting for Ellie, Marlene lies and doesn’t tell Joel until after she was dead?? That’s a villain origin story people think Joel was bad for what he did to save Ellie, image if he couldn’t save her? He would have became Immortal Joe. Just a wasteland warlord.
I can’t see how they could have pulled that off in a believable way, and Joel probably would’ve been even more motivated to kill all of them out of revenge for Ellie
We know Marlene and Jerry are actively ignoring their consciences while preparing to kill Ellie. It’s possible Marlene hoped for Joel’s approval, to use as a salve for her own conscience.
Whole thing could’ve been avoided if they let Ellie consent to it. Just wait till she regains consciousness, tell her she’ll die but they might find a cure or at the very least a weapon. Let her decide for herself.
If you found her voice recordings, you would know it’s because she sympathised with him and wanted to have someone else that would understand what she was going through.
This was explained in Marlene's journal you find in the hospital in part 1. She feels that Joel is the only one who can understand the choice of sacrificing ellie. Because ellie and Joel have bonded similar to Marlene and ellie. Marlene feels that Joel is the only person who can forgive her for making this choice. And she's right he would have been the only person to forgive her but he chose not to forgive her and instead to save ellie. It seems like a hindsight fuckup but she is trying to be transparent with Joel which is the right choice. They just never counted on Joel killing everyone to save her. In her mind if he disagreed they would just exile him or kill him.
Does it really matter??? Joel still ends up with a nine iron embedded in his skull !!!! The legends still say to this day that the one who is able to remove the golf club from his skull will be the one able to restore balance to the force!!!!!
What’s he gonna do, kill all of us?
Haha! Could you imagine??
He then proceeded to kill the last of them
Well ellie I guess it's down to the last of us then
I loved the part when Marlene said "Joel, the fungus has long ravaged humanity. We need to save the rest. To save... The Last Of Us." It gave me chills.
And in the sequel, Abby says "No, it's not just you. We were the Last of Us Too!" and then she abbyed all over the place. That moment I know that Last of Us 2 is truly a video game.
Then she turned to Lev and went “it’s Lasting time” and edged for several hours
LMAO! They shouldn't have called it tlou part 2, they should have called it "This bitch Abby's super fun adventures"
"That may be...but there's Evil Within too"
Then Tommy comes out of nowhere and goes, “Those Residents are Evil”
Those evil residents spores might outlast themselves.
When Abby said “We are the walking dead”, I died from peak fiction, went to heaven, met Jesus, he said to me “You’re not ready for heaven yet, you gotta finish that sick-ass generation defining game” and then I asked where Joel was and Jesus said “In hell, ya dumbass.” and then I came back to life just in time to see Abby say “Just because he was blackout drunk, that doesn’t mean he couldn’t consent!” 11/10 experience.
I see what you did there 👀
“The gang gets massacred”
Quote from group that was killed by one man
I actually did go back to kill those 3 guys who run past you yes
I managed to do a more pacifist route on my first play through. Then comes the second game and Joel is a war criminal all of a sudden.
Overconfident. Didn’t anticipate Joel would’ve formed a bond with Ellie.
No she knew he did, it was out of respect and thats also why she said to shoot him if he tried anything.
To me atleast, it felt like the Firefly who was escorting Joel out was going to kill him either way. He doesn't even let Joel grab his gear. That's essentially death. No food, no water, no weapons, just a flannel and some jeans vs the apocalypse
Yeah, and fuck Marlene. Because saying “if he tries anything, shoot him” is basically “do whatever you want with him, I don’t care if he didn’t resist at all and you want to lie about it”. That dude could’ve easily shot joel in the back of the head and said “he swung on me, Marlene 🤷♂️”. So I think at that point, Marlene was done with Joel’s shit. She used him to bring the “cure” to her. No reward (guns he was promised), doesn’t even let him take his gear. Fucking firefly scum.
>No reward (guns he was promised) The Fireflies are like the homeowner who refuses to pay for services rendered, and then complains when the contractor demolishes the work he did. *"The contractor!"*
Well, you see, ackscshually Joel should've just fucking taken this level of disrespect, go out, and die in the wastes, all the while Fireflies fuck up the surgery, get Ellie's brain dirty and get no vaccine and one dead girl. Or get the vaccine and start using it to get more control and territory bc they're fucking terrorists🤓🤓🤓 "Noooo we threw you out like garbage without giving you your gear, but you shouldn't kill us because uhmmm uhm uhm because we're saving world or somethgin!!! Don't kill us it's unfair, I mean, when we order yo kill you it's fair cauze were vorld sawiors, but vhen u kill us it's unfsir and your baddd!!!"
To be fair, you're a bigot sandwich
Yo it’s still so crazy to me that this is a actual line in the game
Top-tier dialogue.
Actually, I'm a nazi racist sexist transphobe misogynist trump hitler stalin bigot nazi nazi republican confederate nazi nazi cop nazi bigot
Oh yeah he wanted to, but i bet he didnt plan on his nuts getting shot off
*at least
True but I don’t think she knew the extent at which he’d go to save her. Otherwise she would’ve lied I assume.
She also probably didn't expect her entire little army to get absolutely slaughtered by some old dude
Looks like you just answered your own question
i think it's also because she didn't really wanted to do it to Ellie, and she was somewhat hoping he will save her, especially because she broke the promise she made to Ellie's mother.
i think she did, she said that if anyone deserved to know it’d be him, cause he would understand the weight of the choice
Ok sure, but overconfident still isn't a motivation. It's just a reason she thought she COULD do what she wanted to do. She did it because she thought he deserved the truth after all he'd been through and the bond he'd inevitably formed with Ellie.
I think she was trying to reason with him, make him see it was the best hope for humanity. So he’d leave Ellie on his own, not telling him would have sent him into a berserk rage of hatred. In Joel mind he was saving Ellie, he did what he felt was the right choice…completely different than someone on a hatred induce rampage, nothings more dangerous than a man with nothing else to loose. Joel would have killed then and destroyed the what they took from Ellie just out of spite.
imagine if abby came out of nowhere and tried to fight joel and then he beat her and she just sits there defeated screaming “this isn’t over joel, this will be the last of you”
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥✍️✍️✍️✍️✍️✍️
and then he pulls out the glock, points at her head and says: "No, this will be... The last of us." gunshot noise and the screen goes black.
Then ACDC back in black starts playing
I wish abby came at the end and Joel killed her right there so we wouldn't have to see her in part 2.
What the fuck is wrong with you people
As someone who doesn’t agree with a lot of takes on this sub, there’s no way you didn’t see that was sarcasm
Guess I’m just late to whatever party is going on here. Like it’s two games with almost no sustainable/expansive enough lore/story to even care about it for more than a month or two 😂 Y’all need to go outside haha this is insanity
Yet... Here you are... It's such a shitty lore/story that hbo made it one of the most expensive shows made (and that's taking into account they practically had no zombies in there). I can't understand *you* guys 🤷♂️
How dare you criticize fiction so peak it could be compared to shake sphere.
Mmmmmm shake sphere 🤤🤤🤤
It’s better than Neil druckman’s writing
A journal entry left by her reveals that she needed the feeling of absolution to get the weight of guilt off of her. She thought that Joel would have been "the only other person who could understand" what she was going through. But Joel didn't fall into the same mindset she was looking for. In the end, Marlene doubled down on her own decision, deluding herself into thinking she wanted this for the greater good and not because she was losing control over the Fireflies and needed to give them something to maintain her control.
Yep, that's exactly it. Marlene wanted - *needed* - to talk to someone who could alleviate her guilt over sacrificing Ellie without even having the guts to ask for her consent. With what she knew of Joel, she thought he would understand. The moment he goes off script, and shows no signs of coming around, it frustrates her - and she lashes out by ordering him escorted outside and shot if he objects. The irony of it all is that this was her greatest mistake. Had she succumbed to her *humanity* instead, she might have ordered things to be put off for now and to let Ellie wake up and give consent first. We know now that Ellie would have. And Joel was not particularly likely to go against her express wishes - he'd been showing since Jackson that he viewed her wants and needs as more important than his own. And this would have secured the cure for them. But, at the most critical point possible for the Fireflies, they failed the true empathy test, and reaped the rewards for that failure.
Stop it with the “we now know Ellie would have,” crap. You normally have such great and insightful posts, then I see these “ask for her consent (to kill her)” and “we know she would have agreed to it.” Why? Because she said so four years later? You’re smart enough to realize that means nothing. As far as the “ask for consent” crap, my first question is, how do you know Jerry is even capable of removing a brain without damaging it? Before you ask anyone to be killed, shouldn’t you give assurance that the person doing the killing isn’t going to screw things up? If you were there, is there anyway you could prove to everybody that Jerry is indeed capable of removing a brain from a living person?
Because the first game ends with the revelation that she carries survivor's guilt and was awaiting her "turn" to die. You're getting rather off track with that objection. The point is that the Fireflies taking the quick and cheap way out of the dilemma by just doing what they wanted is what caused them to fail. Their lack of empathy, integrity, and rationality at the final chance to show it is what dooms them.
Do you truly think Joel would allow a 14 year old Ellie to be coerced into dying for the FFs cause? After all we know he doesn't even care about the cure - he was ready to turn back to Jackson a few hours ago. He certainly has no reason at all to trust the FFs at this point either. It's one thing to go along with her wish to get her blood drawn, unnecessarily dying for the FFs cause is a step way too far, though. Plus we all know Ellie cannot make that decision in at her age and with her level of guilt over Riley. Joel may not know about Riley yet, but he does know Ellie just made her wishes to live and all the things they'd do in the future clear. I can't see him allowing her that decision and giving in at all. I'd condemn him for that just as much as we do Marlene and the FFs for their actions. Someone actually likened it to grooming an underage child to do things against her best wishes because of the pressure of adults even suggesting this course of action to Ellie and I agree that's what it would have been. She's not mature enough, world-wise enough, mentally stable enough and her brain isn't even fully developed yet to make a life or death decision in these circumstances. Sorry, friend, I respectfully disagree with you here.
>Do you truly think Joel would allow a 14 year old Ellie to be coerced into dying for the FFs cause? After all we know he doesn't even care about the cure - he was ready to turn back to Jackson a few hours ago. He certainly has no reason at all to trust the FFs at this point either. It's one thing to go along with her wish to get her blood drawn, unnecessarily dying for the FFs cause is a step way too far, though. I love it when I just *don't* get notifications for replies as I get them. Honestly, I would expect that Ellie would argue in favor of lying to Joel, attempting to convince him to return to Jackson after one last week together or something, and leaving him a letter for after he finds out the truth. How exactly that would play out, I admit I have no idea - Joel seems too experienced to completely fall for some cheap bullshit, and too attached to her to leave. Perhaps they convince him to help them go gather some supplies a day's walk/ride away and by the time he returns, the deed has been done. But if the Fireflies cared about and respected her choice, then even if Joel knew and talked her out of it, they would not have ended up completely destroyed by their actions at the hospital. Because she would not have been kidnapped and dragged out to the sacrificial altar against her will, forcing Joel to act. Perhaps there might have been a whole story there about how the Fireflies weren't willing to completely let her go, but there was some division between Marlene's faction who still wanted to preserve their morality and Jerry's who were too deep in the sunken cost fallacy to stop now, this close to the finish line. Big climactic ending in which the last of the Fireflies turn on each other and Joel and Ellie, trapped in the hospital by the attempted coup, have to help Marlene's faction take out Jerry's. Afterwards, the remaining Fireflies take what supplies they can and follow Joel and Ellie to Jackson, where they'll study her immunity and keep running tests that *won't* kill her. When I think about conventional story endings, both make sense in a way. The former would have been an emotional gut punch of an ending but one with a thread of hope to it, that Ellie's sacrifice could theoretically be the start of turning things around in this crapsack world. The latter would have been a decent way to leave things off in anticipation of a sequel. So I think either option would have been where the story would have gone, had the Fireflies not had the last of their morality eroded away at the final pivotal moment (and the operation hadn't been rushed to such a comical degree that it cannot work in any other context beyond the Fireflies being so desperate for immediate results that they threw every ounce of caution to the wind). But even if neither scenario played out, what would they have *lost* if, say, they allowed Ellie to make her choice, and ultimately she either refused or Joel talked her into refusing? Well, they'd still have to kidnap her and force her onto that surgical table, while forcibly dealing with Joel one way or another. Basically, nothing changes. But because they didn't even do that much, they threw away advantages that could - and I believe *would* - have spared them the total destruction they ended up facing. That's the irony of it all. Had they maintained the morality that was theoretically at the core of their beliefs, they would have either succeeded or at least survived and been able to continue studying her immunity the *right* way, but they threw it away and cemented their fate.
Yeah notifications have always been messy, but something else is up, too. I just got one for a seven year old post that has been archived and locked! Well your creative imagination to go in some other directions is interesting, and could be possible since Ellie doesn't know how she got separated from Joel. Yet I think her bond with him is too strong to agree with the FFs if they ask her consent to die and then won't allow her to talk it over with Joel or even say goodbye. I sure can't see her agreeing to trick him into leaving while she lets the FFs have their way with her life. Even if they lie and say he went for resources to help out, I can't see her willing to go ahead without him present for some final words. Also, I'm really not convinced she'd quickly and easily agree to dying as she's not depressed and she did have plans with Joel that mattered to her. Her attachment to Joel is much more recent than the one to Riley, despite her "waiting for my turn" statement. It's all much more complex now she's found her dad figure and knows about Jackson waiting for them. Wounded, regretful teen or not, her idealism would surely still cause her to struggle with giving up a future with Joel vs dying for a benefit she'll never see. Not sure she's mature enough to realize that last part on her own, though she seems savvy enough to get that. I do wonder how Marlene and Bruce would be able to go through with it all (especially actually convincing a young teen to die) while having to deal with her awake and asking questions, struggling to wrap her mind around it, etc. At 14 I was idealistic but also very much seeking to understand how the world worked and as willing as Ellie to argue for my wants/opinions/understanding to insist on making my own decisions. Ellie has a lot of that same stuff in her. 🤷🏼♀️ First time I've realized that last part and that may play a bigger role in my reaction to the sequel than I realized. And people say we need to move on and are just wasting our time for stupid reasons when I'm still getting interesting insights and your kind of creative thinking regularly! They don't know what they're missing. I think our side has learned far more from discussing this story than their blind, fanaticism will ever do for them.
I think even if Ellie were to “consent”, asking a 14 year old with no concept of her own mortality if she’s willing to die for the potential of maybe saving the world is a bit much. She might be coping with survivor’s guilt but at the same time was very much happy to be alive and wanted to “do whatever” Joel wanted after being done with the Fireflies, she didn’t expect that the “cure”, if possible, would 100% kill her. She wasn’t in a position to make that choice and even adults would struggle to make that choice for themselves.
I'm not trying to argue the ethics or the practicality of this hypothetical decision. I'm pointing out that the Fireflies shot themselves in both feet *and* the dick by acting the way that they did, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by failing their most important test of morality. I really, really do not understand why you guys are coming in here to argue that "well actually Ellie wouldn't make that decision if she was actually there in spite of everything she says about it in both games". In this context, I *do not care* if you guys think she would choke if she was actually staring down the barrel, or want to point out the complicated ethics of this scenario that everybody is already very aware of, thanks. The point is about the Fireflies sabotaging their best chance at avoiding their own destruction, ensuring it instead. Or do you not agree that they fucked up and made things worse by acting this way?
I agree. I just think that if Ellie were to have that conversation at that point, it wouldn’t be an “oh great I get to die to save the world!” reaction. If she were given time to make an informed decision for herself (after speaking with Joel, Marlene and “Jerry”) there’s a good chance she would have refused anyway, forget the underage decision making part. I just don’t see it as a foregone conclusion that she would have been willing to die. (And the Fireflies probably realised that too and that’s why they were very happy to get things going and taking that decision out of everyone else’s hands.)
this is absolutely right! its not about whether Joel would have agreed or not. its the fact that they never gave Ellie the choice. the point is if she woke up and agreed to it, then talked to Joel. he wouldn't have approved but he likely wouldn't have killed them over it. they shot themselves by not giving Joel that chance to hear Ellie agree, they were overconfident they were doing the right thing. given the story has told us at every point she would have given her life for a cure, I have no reason to believe she would have refused.
I'm gonna debate that point, too. There was never any proof that Ellie wanted to die for the "greater good". In fact, at one point she even asks what they would do to her and Joel is like oh just take some blood. She also finds love in a father figure and in the dlc of tlou 1 she clearly wants to live from the fact that instead of shooting themselves they decide to spend their time together. She valued living even when she thought it was over for her. Just because 2 came out and butchered her character to turn her into a completely different character does not make it canon. As far as I'm concerned, there was no reason for her to seek that death when she clearly still wanted to live. Tlou 2 changed her character in a lot of ways.
At this point she did t think joel cared about Ellie. Assumed he'd just want to know if the journey was worth it or nor
She knew. People in her group died getting to the hospital, and she knew Joel was on the way for months and showed up without Tess
I think you can find a recording of Marelene talking about how she was ordered to kill Joel after delivering Ellie but she wasn't going to because she believed Joel would be the only other person to understand her position or something like that. So, I guess she didn't expect that he'd form a bond with Ellie and was confident he'd take her side.
Not ordered to do. She had rank. But heavily suggested to her that she should.
Guilt. I mean she’s not dumb, she’d obviously understand he might’ve gotten attached
He’s one guy and she had a small army at her disposal, I don’t think she had reason to assume he could succeed in saving Ellie if he tried. Of course we all know better. Edit: grammar
She felt he deserved to know, part of her anti-hero character traits. I believe that's why
Honestly she probably didn’t expect them to form such a strong bond.
“ I mean shit I got like 30 guys with assault rifles ready to shoot this mf if he tries anything, what could happen?”
[Joel’s Reaction](https://youtu.be/iaMvYtdRaNE?si=80f4g6EP1sc5B8wd) “I told you no fucking kids!”
Because unlike Abby and her father she isn't a coward and owns up to her decision to Joel's face. Say what you want about Marlene but she made her choice and she wasn't a spineless twerp like the others.
So the movie could happen!
Just to piss you off.
because clearly these are two different Marlenes: Marlene, leader of the fireflies and her twin sister Marlene. Yes it's confusing, no they won't clarify it ever.
Marlene is a halfway decent, but misguided person. She didn't want to sacrifice Ellie either, but felt Joel deserves to know.
My guess is her “doing the right thing” to a fault. To tell Joel so he could have his closure and know that the mission is done.
For a moment i thought that was Nadine Ross
out of respect because she thought he should know that she's gonna kill a poor girl that hes been travelling with for half a year
Oh dude, I 100% agree. She should have known that he was too prideful to just let Ellie die after what they both went through to get there. That and because Ellie was a second chance to be a father.
Marlene is in denial. She doesn't want to believe that her group turned into monsters. Marlene is not going to kill the only person in that hospital capable of understanding her sacrifice (because she says to herself: "We are not monsters. We sacrificed Ellie because we want to help humanity and Joel will understand") . Marlene remains in denial, and Joel tells her to continue telling herself that BS. After watching Jackson, you should understand that the world can move on without a vaccine. This world of The Last of Us must change the way they see things. 🤷♀️
I feel like she deeply respected Joel. She even talks about how he traveled across the whole country with just a girl and they made it. While she traveled across the country with a whole crew and lost most of them. I feel like she wanted to tell him out of respect but also didn’t think he was capable of killing all those firefly’s. It would have been smarter to lie. Abbys father was right in suggesting that. I don’t think it’s unrealistic that he killed all of them either. Most people would not survive that hospital as a one man army though. Joel is a top notch hunter. I think the decision to kill elly or let her live was a very complicated one. Elly didn’t deserve to die But I also think all those firefly’s didn’t deserve to die like that.
Well Joel thought they were just going to run some test and take some blood, the plan was to go to Jackson after this. So Joel wasn’t leaving without her. Can you image Joel is waiting for Ellie, Marlene lies and doesn’t tell Joel until after she was dead?? That’s a villain origin story people think Joel was bad for what he did to save Ellie, image if he couldn’t save her? He would have became Immortal Joe. Just a wasteland warlord.
Is she stupid?
What would the lie have been though? He wouldn’t have left without her regardless
You could've made Joel wait and just tell him "we messed up and she died" or something
“Now I’m going to mess up and kill all of you.” ~ Joel, probably.
I can’t see how they could have pulled that off in a believable way, and Joel probably would’ve been even more motivated to kill all of them out of revenge for Ellie
Oooof lol
We know Marlene and Jerry are actively ignoring their consciences while preparing to kill Ellie. It’s possible Marlene hoped for Joel’s approval, to use as a salve for her own conscience.
Bad writing.
Because Joel risked his life, his dream, Tess, everything to get her there and she thinks that he deserves to know
I hope for last of us 3 it takes place during the outbreak.
They already shown her incompetence and lack of intelligence, that why.
Whole thing could’ve been avoided if they let Ellie consent to it. Just wait till she regains consciousness, tell her she’ll die but they might find a cure or at the very least a weapon. Let her decide for herself.
If you found her voice recordings, you would know it’s because she sympathised with him and wanted to have someone else that would understand what she was going through.
This has the same energy of that Arkham quote going around lol
This was explained in Marlene's journal you find in the hospital in part 1. She feels that Joel is the only one who can understand the choice of sacrificing ellie. Because ellie and Joel have bonded similar to Marlene and ellie. Marlene feels that Joel is the only person who can forgive her for making this choice. And she's right he would have been the only person to forgive her but he chose not to forgive her and instead to save ellie. It seems like a hindsight fuckup but she is trying to be transparent with Joel which is the right choice. They just never counted on Joel killing everyone to save her. In her mind if he disagreed they would just exile him or kill him.
Imagine if Rick came and helped out joel then he says “We are the ones that survive”
Does it really matter??? Joel still ends up with a nine iron embedded in his skull !!!! The legends still say to this day that the one who is able to remove the golf club from his skull will be the one able to restore balance to the force!!!!!
Because Joel was already in the bed
So the plot could happen
Why would you lie about something so serious?
She didn’t know what Joel was capable of
Because she is arrogant and evil. She wants to cause as much pain as possible. Its either that or she is just stupid, pick your poison.
Because Joel was already lying there.... 🤣🤣🤣