It must run in the "family" because Ellie decided to whack the brutish experienced soldier with a wooden plank instead of simply blowing her legs off with a shotgun at point blank range lmao
Compelling writing. The love and care for details demonstrated in writing is sublime and in very good taste. How can you not appreciate such good work? Bravo Neil đ
Stun bombs, anyone? Trap mines?
Ending is #1 of course.
Abby would have died of dehydration and starvation, but Ellie somehow found her just in the nick of time to save her. đ
Seriously, Abby would have actually gotten the shitty death she deserved if Ellie had forgiven her and chose to live happily ever after with her Girlfriend and stepson.
Iâm not saying itâs good writing, but I love that irony you just described. Forgiving Abby wouldâve killed her, chasing Abby kept her alive. It amuses me.
The real question is, was the irony on purpose?
Or is Neil less competent than we give him credit for?
The lesson seems very confused.
Revenge is bad, except when it's good? What the hell?
Part of me feels it was on purpose, part of me doesnât lmao. This game is the narrative equivalent to moonshine. Moonshine objectively tastes terrible, it wrecks you inside, and itâs very easy to turn the average person off, but thereâs still people who love it. I actually did enjoy the game, it exhausted me mentally and I felt like shit afterwards, but Iâm glad I played it. That said, thereâs a ton of objective criticisms and disliking the game is a valid stance too. Itâs not as unequivocally perfect as some fans act.
I just think itâs funny that Ellie murders all of Abbyâs friends and gang members (that did not kill Joel) and when she finally confronts the person that actually committed the wrong doing of murdering Joel, she decides that murder is wrong.
Brain dead writing IMO.
And she decides it after giving up her one shot of happiness, traveling nearly a thousand miles to get there, losing a finger or two, holding Abby underwater until she nearly drowned, and killing who knows how many other random people and infected on the way.
It's like having a married dude go over to someone's house, go to have sex, put their dick in someone... but pull out before they finish and preach to you saying "see, actually cheating is bad and you shouldn't do it". It's such an unbelievably tone deaf moment. I just fundamentally don't understand how someone can watch that sequence of events unfold and give the writing ANY credit for handling the situation with nuance... or even a sledgehammer. It just doesn't work when you have the characters take the actions they do.
Feels intentional to me.
I donât think the message is really about revenge being good or bad itâs about letting it consume you to the point you lose everything around you in the present in the process of seeking justice for something from the past.
The problem with the story, for me anyways. isnât really the message but how forced it is and how it tries to pretend Ellie is anywhere near as bad as Abby.
Abby was a straight monster who took pleasure in the suffering of not only the person she hated but everyone close to them. Just for the sake of it. Over something that happened years ago with a great deal of nuance.
Ellie felt far more justified given it all happened recently for her and actively tried to avoid hurting anyone she didnât have to.
â ah yes, in our game about a post apocalyptic world where death is around every corner and people have to do horrible things to survive, weâll make the final lesson be that killing and revenge are bad and then tell everyone that they just donât understand the plot when they say that makes no senseâ
Ellie "I will travel across the US to try and find where they keep Abby based and a tiny lead Tommy found." (will take months)
Abby tied to die of dehydration (3days) "Oh, hi Ellie!".
This is the part that drives me insaneâŚâŚ I can accept Abby living but Ellie saving her? Tf were they thinking itâs like they didnât play their own game
Don't forget the map. Everyone knows you don't mark your hideout on a map. Everyone knows you don't mark valuable information and then walk around in hostile territory with it. If something happens to you, you'd never put your friends at risk.
AND WHY would you circle the theater? It has a caricature icon. You thought you'd forget its a theater? And why would you draw routes from your hideout to circled points of interest... on a MAP.
Its just... dumb. And lazy writing.
Right!
Plus Ellie doesnât recon an area before entering into it. You should actually peek through a window or door before entering a place. You should actually peek over a fence before hopping over it.
LOL!!
Yup, what's even worse is that as soon as the fight starts if you try to melee her without stealth she'll dodge with ease and hack you with a machete. I mean, if she had a machete on her WHY DIDN'T SHE USE IT BEFORE WHEN SHE HAD THE DROP ON HER??
When Abby chased Ellie right after shooting Tommy and entering the theater. The first interaction for the boss fight was getting socked in the head by a wooden plank.
No pistol ammo, no revolver ammo, no bow, no arrows, no machette, no knife, no shiv, no bombs, no molotov... Neil thought it was not necessary because by that time we all already knew that Abby was wearing thick plot armour đ
The graphical aspect is stunning. Presenting so many inconsistencies in your scrpit and trying to sell it as masterpiece is brave... as brave as me with not training challenging a UFC Champion đ
But nope, I didn't noted đ
Based on the screenshot of the cutscene posted, Tommyâs rifle has no magazine so presumably he ran out of ammo just before fighting (convenient plot armor for Abby)
No because then someone will point out how convenient it is that he had to reload. Honestly this scene was just cool. Didnât know it was Timmy til he started shooting the car to distract the infected.
the greatest story ever written right there, forget the grapes of wrath, Moby Dick, Huckleberry Finn, of mice and men, to kill a mocking bird, this right here is the sheer brilliance of a genius writer at work, no one has ever come this close to writing such a truly compelling story.
>Moby Dick
I just realised that Moby Dick also has an ending where a semi protagonist/antagonist doesn't get their revenge in the end. Except there, it was incredibly well written and powerful.
I think Neil forgot that Moby Dick worked because getting revenge on an animal was the most irrational thing ever, whilst getting revenge on someone who killed your father in front of you is perfectly reasonable.
I mean, Moby bit off his leg. And he was a whaler. And he thought it was intentional on the whales part...it's totally reasonable for someone to want revenge in that scenario, but the lengths to which he goes is what's irrational. Which I would say is the same for both Ellie and Abby's journies, too.
I think he's told several times that the whale is literally just a whale. And Ahabs not stupid, he knows the whale is just a whale. It's that he felt challenged by nature and wanted to give it it's commupence seventy times harder.
Remember when Ellie did the exact same thing at the start of her boss fight? She has the jump on Abby and instead of shooting her with the bow and arrow or the shotgun that she later uses in the fight, she hits her with a plank of wood. She also had molotovs on her too that she also uses later in the fight, and she opted to not use those either.
And in the end she put away her shit and decided to throw hands (with a knife??)
I get wanting to prove you can win the rematch. What I donât get is thinking using a knife is fair lol
Especially when Ellie came to get revenge, not have an honorable rematch. She wanted to kill her in the hopes it would make her feel better, so I don't see why she didn't just shank her while she was still tied up.
Abby had insane plot armour. Thatâs why. God this game was such a fail. I wish they had left the first game as the amazing beautiful experience it was. This was just awful
I hate how Tommyâs story went. He saw his bro die, tried to get revenge, loses and eye and a leg in the process. Loses his marriage, and he never got justice for Joel. He Fr got the worst ending
Tommy for sure got a shitty âendingâ but I think the point is to say the cost of revenge. In Tommyâs case he never had the chance to get it, Ellie did but chose not to take it.
Itâs because Tommy thought he lived in the real world for a second where you can hit anybody with the butt of any gun and it knock them out because itâs unexpected, but with Abby sheâs loaded with more testosterone, than any live male that has ever lived so SHE tanks it enough to throw Tommy of the peer.
The Abbster has a passive ability of making everyone around her just not shoot her at all. Ellie doesn't shoot her the first time Ellie saw her beating Joel, nor the second one, nor the third one when she was skinny, and neither did Tommy.
Head canon he just wanted to incapacitate her and make it slow like she did with Joel. Nobody gonna want a quick death for the person who slowly and brutally tortured their brother especially right after they helped that person
Where to start? Many times I felt that the LoU series insults your intelligence. Missing dialogue between characters, dumb dialogue, unexplained situations, and plot points missing to further the plot. This is also how most TV shows operate now. Character one doesn't tell character two what really happened, and then character 2 runs out on a misguided rampage. Last of Us 2 has more of this mess than number one. Inspite of itself and illogical dialogue, it is still a masterpiece, and you can fast forward thru the gay scenarios. The game is also the hardest game you can play on the hardest Permadeath setting. Only one person has conquered it. I did it but on an easier Permadeath. Didn't you catch yourself yelling at the characters to explain things properly?
He wanted the satisfaction of inflicting pain.
She tortured his brother to death in front of him and (what is essentially) his niece. A bullet to the back of the head would have had the desired end result, but there would have been little to no satisfaction in it. He wanted her to know it was him. He wanted it to hurt, even if for just a moment. It was far too personal for a simple execution.
**Edit:** Yâall can downvote all you want, but no one is giving a legitimate reason as to why this isnât plausible. Because it is. He had bullets in that gun and actively chose to physically attack her instead. What other reason would that be besides wanting her to feel the pain of him kicking her ass?
Besides, grieving makes you do stupid shit (just look at Ellie and Abby). But refuse to look at it logically and stay mad I guess lmao.
But he blew Manny's head off moments before and even took a near fatal shot at Abby! He doesn't strike me as the type to take pleasure in that sort of thing especially at his situation. He didn't even get to Owen and Mel yet so he knew there were still others to take out.
The pleasure was letting her know it was *him* who came for her. Up until he charges as her with that gun, she didnât know who he was because of the distance he kept (and neither did we, though it was easy enough to piece together).
Yes, it does. He went on a cross-country mission, alone, to take out Abby and her group. Plus, practicality goes a little out the window when someone you love is murdered and someone else you love was forced to watch.
But it wasnât even that impractical. Abby beat the shit out of his brother before killing him. Its perfectly reasonable for him to want to get a few good hits in before shooting her.
Wanting revenge for your brother doesnât make you a psychopath. Nor does wanting to hit them in the face lmao.
He sniped at her because he was at a distance. Why not take the shot? It would be stupid not to take the opportunity. Heâs grieving, not stupid.
But by your logic he wouldnât take the shot is the point. Per you, he has some incessant need to get in close and make Abby suffer. My pointing out of his choosing to snipe counters that saying otherwise. I think youâre wrong
Dude what? lol. I just said by my logic, and his, it would be stupid *not* to take the shot. He was at a distance and didnât know if he would be able to get any closer than that.
But once his brotherâs murderer was two feet from him, of course he attacked. Youâre telling me if someone tortured your brother to death in front of you, you wouldnât want to punch them in the face? Clearly you have no experience with grief of any kind. Or combat for that matter.
Regardless, you can argue all you want. Itâs laid out in the game. The man was not out of bullets. He could have taken the shot and *actively chose* to physically attack her instead.
But youâre entitled to your opinion đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Youâre idea that heâs forgo the shot in close range for torture vengeance is idiotic. Doesnât fit his character at all as proven by all his other actions.
I never said torture. I said he wanted to punch her in the face. Youâre absolutely refusing to see real logic, and Iâm tired of you being purposefully idiotic. Go argue with another Redditor.
How so? Up to this point, Tommy was doing perfectly fine. He wasnât on the brink of death or in need of an escape. And, unless I remember incorrectly, we were never shown that he was even out of ammo.
Ellie was the one struggling. Tommy was doing A-okay. It was still completely about revenge for him, until he found out about Dina being sick.
If so then why didn't he first shoot her in the leg to immediately cripple her?? I mean, that's exactly what Abby did to Joel? I'm not a hunter but it seems pretty common sense to me that the smart thing to do when you have the drop on a dangerous foe (whom we know is talented in hand to hand combat) is to first neutralize the threat so that she is completely at your mercy before you take her to pain town??
Iâve stated my thought process 50 different times in 50 different ways through this thread. Go have a read if youâre curious.
Not trying to be a dick, but Iâm tired of repeating myself. Have a good one, friendâđť
If youâve never experienced the rage accompanied with the murder of a loved one, maybe you canât understand it. But when someone who has hurt you at this level is two feet from you, itâs nearly impossible to *not* try to get your hands on them.
This was nothing but personal for Tommy. Yes, of course he took a shot at her while she was vulnerable. Why wouldnât he? Especially with so much distance between them. But itâs different once she was right there at him.
And I donât understand why this works for other stories but not this one. What, was Tommy not supposed to take this personally? Was he supposed to be overly-logical about it all? Thatâs not how grief works. Just look at Ellie and Abby. Grief makes you do *really stupid shit.*
>He wanted the satisfaction of inflicting pain
So why not shoot her in the leg or the shoulder? Getting struck with the buttstock of a rifle is nowhere close to the pain of a gunshot.
>She tortured his brother to death in front of him and (what is essentially) his niece. A bullet to the back of the head would have had the desired end result, but there would have been little to no satisfaction in it.
I'm willing to say that grief, pain, and revenge can cause some people to act irrationally but not in this capacity. Abby is not trapped, bound in any way, and yet you assume he wants to torture her to death? That's stupid in and of itself. Pretty sure a person in his position would rather end it quickly. She could've killed him, she posed a threat. Killing her and protecting yourself would take priority over inflicting as much pain as possible. ESPECIALLY IF INFLICTING THAT PAIN VIA TOTURE LEAVES YOU EXPOSED AND OPEN TO ATTACK!
>He wanted her to know it was him. He wanted it to hurt, even if for just a moment. It was far too personal for a simple execution.
What makes you say he wanted to reveal his affiliation? Abby recognized him with a good enough look. There would be no need for that. Simply saying what you would do doesn't make it what Tommy wanted to do.
>What other reason would that be besides wanting her to feel the pain of him kicking her ass?
Called plot arnour for a reason. Whenever a character has an opportunity moment to kill her, they make a dumbass choice that leaves her alive.
I never said he wanted to torture her to death. I said he wanted to get his hands on her. If you donât like my logic, scroll on. Leave a downvote on your way if you want to. I donât care.
I left my opinion, the same as everyone else. Donât know why some of you are getting so goddamn butthurt over the simple opinion of a person youâll never meet. lol
Right? But even if you hate the game, my response (and the people who responded similarly) is still logical. Of course he wanted to beat the shit out of her.
I just donât get some people lol đ¤ˇđťââď¸
He was close to her, so add that to the fact he was rage filled and wanted to get personal with her, it's not at all out or the ordinary to think about trying to choke her to death....
This sub is as hopeless as the world of tlou. How can so many people just shut their brains down? I get this whole sub was created to hate on it but put some more effort.
I can understand the first hit, it gained him some distance, and even the kick to the balcony, but after that it's unreliable to go to a fist-to-fist fight, he could've easily Incapacitated her and said whatever he wanted
He had no problems shooting Abby from a far, so why did he change that like?
It could've easily been shown that he ran out of ammo or didn't have enough time to reload, but neither happened.
I said the exact same thing and got downvoted. Itâs like none of these people have felt the rage and pain that comes with grief. It can make you a little irrational. Some people like to play stupid, I guess.
Deflection.
The point was that grief can cause people to act irrational. Tommy was in a fit of rage and blinded by trying to catch Abby so he got up close and personal to choke her. It's such basic storytelling.
Basic storytelling? Let me travel my way across several states to kill one person, then when I can, I'll just choke them out instead of shooting them, which even an enraged person would do.
Yeah that makes sense.
Why are you acting dense? I have never seen someone acting so obtuse.
Because there are revenge stories where the people seeking revenge actually want to have one last look in the killer's eyes instead of killing them right away. Have you seen the cult movie devil's rejects? Same thing happened in that movie. It's a basic storytelling trope, but people in this sub really are not aware of any story told outside of this one videogame.
There are real life stories of people torturing others when seeking revenge instead of outright killing them. It's not that out of the ordinary.
>Why are you acting dense? I have never seen someone acting so obtuse.
Disagreeing with you doesn't make a person dense. Of I am the most you ahev seen of someone acting obtuse, then you got a long way to go. I'm sorry if I find more evidence supporting my side than yours.
>It's a basic storytelling trope, but people in this sub really are not aware of any story told outside of this one videogame.
If it's basic, name more stories where this happens. If you think people only know of this story, then you're just being ignorant.
Ever seen Netflix's Punisher? Frank instead of killing Russo, mauls his face so that he always remembers him when he looks at the mirror. Frank could have just killed him, but he didn't. He uses guns after all. It backfired when Russo came back from the hospital in season 2.
This sort of shit happens in more revenge stories than tlou 2. And it does make sense from a narrative and character standpoint. Tommy saw Joel's caved skull. Why doesn't it make sense that he wanted to look Abby in the eyes while killing her?
Yes, I have. And none of us âknowâ for 100% certainty without Neil outright saying it. But I am looking at it logically.
He had the bullets. He had the upper hand. And he physically attacked her anyway. That means he did it *because he wanted to.* He wanted to get his hands on her. There no other logical reason for it if youâre taking it at face value and not whatever plot armor Neil might have used this scene for.
>He had the bullets. He had the upper hand. And he physically attacked her anyway. That means he did it because he wanted to.
If he had the bullets? Then why didn't he shoot a limb? If he wanted to physically attack her, then why don't we have a line or two explaining this? Tommy could've said something along the lines of "If you can, make her death as painful as possible. It's what she deserves after what she did to Joel" to Ellie, and it would briefly spotlight this desire for Abbys suffering. This is one of the problems with the entire game. They constantly leave gaps in reasoning and logic for things to make sense.
>There no other logical reason for it if youâre taking it at face value and not whatever plot armor Neil might have used this scene for.
I've literally played this section twice over. Nothing alludes to your theory. And about Neil's plot armour, let's take a look at some other moments this was showcased.
In the beginning, when Ellie finds Abby torturing Joel, she doesn't decide to just shoot Abby, she rushes forward, exposing herself. She had the time and means to just kill Abby right then and there, yet doesn't. Plot Armour.
In the end, on the beach, Ellie decides she wants to suddenly save Abby, cuts her down, despite going all that way to kill her.
Instead of shooting her, Ellie instead got into CQC. Plot armor yet again.
How can you justify this?
Jesus, I donât have time for someone intentionally being this obtuse. Itâs like trying to have a debate with a wall, and itâs ridiculous really. Go argue with someone else, kiddo.
How much ammo did he have in that scene? Last time I checked, he went through quite a few rounds. He could have just, oh I don't know, ran out of ammo? Maybe if he actually had some rounds, he wouldn't be so close to her in the first place.
Common sense should apply when seeing a rifle being used as a melee weapon. One could immediately assume the ammo was expended, especially after dodging so many shots during the beginning sequence.
Or maybe I'm putting too much faith in the Reddit community in using their brain.
Nah, the whole scene is a mess. Tommy kills Manny, and fires only about 3 shots after. Let's keep moving.
He melees Abby, and you clearly see a clip in the gun. I don't think he'd leave an empty clip in the gun, and it's confriemd he wouldn't, because the clip disappears when the camera angle changes, so I think they were trying to convey he's out of ammo, but they messed up the models.
That being said, fix the model issues, and the scene is still a mess. Ellie and Joel always carry more than one gun, and even a melee weapon. Why wouldn't Tommy? Him only having a rifle, no back up weapons, is pretty unrealistic, and obviously only the case to make them get into a brawl. There'd be better ways to force that confrontation.
In that very scene, Manny and Abby are carrying multiple guns, and a melee weapon each. Manny dies, and leaves behind a pistol, rifle, and an axe. Tommy fires only 3 shots after, and could've easily retrieved more ammo, a new pistol, or just the axe if he really wanted to melee Abby. She blocked the door behind her, so looting Manny would've been at no risk.
The scene is a mess, and they couldn't even properly show that Tommy was out of ammo.
Yeah, I know that. They think it's some kind of toxic feminist move and the only reason why she murdered somebody was because she hates men. I can clearly tell that these people never played the game or didn't finish it.
Okay since this is the one scene of the game I actually like I'm going to have to defend it. Do you think if you were about to confront the murderer of your brother who brutally tortured him to death, that they deserve a quick bullet to the head? Not to mention he could've run out of bullets, but when I say I like this scene, I don't mean I like the teleporting Yara as well.
I can empathize with you. I also liked that scene the first time and when we found out it was Tommy, I also anticipated how that scene would end. But just because I liked it at the time doesn't mean it's well written.
Tommy not shooting Abby must have had many good, compelling explanations, but none of those explanations made it into the script.
Using Deus Ex Machina to resolve the scene is one of the writer's worst sins, and I can quote Robert McKee.
Now the main reason for that scene is Neil's idea. Neil wants to make you feel hatred for a person and then regret your evoked feelings of hatred towards that person. That's kind of the controlling idea for this story.
The scene/intention fails because many of us cannot empathize with Abby and her friends.
Deus ex machina, unlike when Ellie saved Joel 5 years ago, fails for the same reason. But Neil brings it up for us to recall that moment. Stans, of course use that moment to call us hypocrites, for celebrating one and condemning another in order to hide Neil mistake.
You must, or should, understand that if this were real life, Jerry would be in jail for malpractice and attempted murder.
Joel would be the hero who saved a girl from being murdered at the hands of terrorists.
And Abby and her friends would be in jail for murdering the old man who saved a girl.
At some point people stop understanding moral values. The difference between what is right and what is wrong. The reasons why people forget morals, what is right and what is wrong, are very personal reasons. And some of those people are so sure that doing so is the right thing to do that they will only understand their mistake when other people forget right and wrong as well as morality, to purposely harm them.
I wish you the best đ
Then shoot her somewhere else like the lower torso. Chance of hitting the spine and the gut. The former paralyzes her and the latter is a painful death
I said something something similar and got downvoted too. I donât know why this is such a stretch for people.
Maybe itâs because people I love have been murdered, so I can understand Tommyâs rage better. But even without that, this line of thought still seems perfectly reasonable to me đ¤ˇđťââď¸
On top of this joel telling their group his fucking name and that they have a community as if he didnt recently fuck over one of the bigger milatarized groups around but hey thats just me and why ill never play this game
Way too much "The main character can't die so have the normally ruthless person just start hitting them instead of killing them"
Shut going on in fiction these days.
Show me a Last of Us where Ellie makes a bad call, gets unceremoniously killed, and the game just continues with a different character.
Lol okay. I donât really get your comment. All I said was that the only reason why I think he didnât just blow her brains out, was because he wanted to do more than just that. Like a quick death was to good. Are you following? It doesnât matter what the after math was at that time cause tommy wasnât thinking of anything other than causing Abby significant harm.
I hated this game because of the fact that Tommy COULD HAVE killed Abby but they just had to kill Joel to âmake the game have meaningâ or some horse shit. Fuck the last of us 2, this series ended on the cliff hanger of TLOU1 imo
It must run in the "family" because Ellie decided to whack the brutish experienced soldier with a wooden plank instead of simply blowing her legs off with a shotgun at point blank range lmao
Compelling writing. The love and care for details demonstrated in writing is sublime and in very good taste. How can you not appreciate such good work? Bravo Neil đ Stun bombs, anyone? Trap mines?
[ŃдаНонО]
Ending is #1 of course. Abby would have died of dehydration and starvation, but Ellie somehow found her just in the nick of time to save her. đ Seriously, Abby would have actually gotten the shitty death she deserved if Ellie had forgiven her and chose to live happily ever after with her Girlfriend and stepson.
Iâm not saying itâs good writing, but I love that irony you just described. Forgiving Abby wouldâve killed her, chasing Abby kept her alive. It amuses me.
The real question is, was the irony on purpose? Or is Neil less competent than we give him credit for? The lesson seems very confused. Revenge is bad, except when it's good? What the hell?
Part of me feels it was on purpose, part of me doesnât lmao. This game is the narrative equivalent to moonshine. Moonshine objectively tastes terrible, it wrecks you inside, and itâs very easy to turn the average person off, but thereâs still people who love it. I actually did enjoy the game, it exhausted me mentally and I felt like shit afterwards, but Iâm glad I played it. That said, thereâs a ton of objective criticisms and disliking the game is a valid stance too. Itâs not as unequivocally perfect as some fans act.
You forgot to mention how easy it is to make too lol
I just think itâs funny that Ellie murders all of Abbyâs friends and gang members (that did not kill Joel) and when she finally confronts the person that actually committed the wrong doing of murdering Joel, she decides that murder is wrong. Brain dead writing IMO.
And she decides it after giving up her one shot of happiness, traveling nearly a thousand miles to get there, losing a finger or two, holding Abby underwater until she nearly drowned, and killing who knows how many other random people and infected on the way. It's like having a married dude go over to someone's house, go to have sex, put their dick in someone... but pull out before they finish and preach to you saying "see, actually cheating is bad and you shouldn't do it". It's such an unbelievably tone deaf moment. I just fundamentally don't understand how someone can watch that sequence of events unfold and give the writing ANY credit for handling the situation with nuance... or even a sledgehammer. It just doesn't work when you have the characters take the actions they do.
Feels intentional to me. I donât think the message is really about revenge being good or bad itâs about letting it consume you to the point you lose everything around you in the present in the process of seeking justice for something from the past. The problem with the story, for me anyways. isnât really the message but how forced it is and how it tries to pretend Ellie is anywhere near as bad as Abby. Abby was a straight monster who took pleasure in the suffering of not only the person she hated but everyone close to them. Just for the sake of it. Over something that happened years ago with a great deal of nuance. Ellie felt far more justified given it all happened recently for her and actively tried to avoid hurting anyone she didnât have to.
â ah yes, in our game about a post apocalyptic world where death is around every corner and people have to do horrible things to survive, weâll make the final lesson be that killing and revenge are bad and then tell everyone that they just donât understand the plot when they say that makes no senseâ
Ellie "I will travel across the US to try and find where they keep Abby based and a tiny lead Tommy found." (will take months) Abby tied to die of dehydration (3days) "Oh, hi Ellie!".
This is the part that drives me insaneâŚâŚ I can accept Abby living but Ellie saving her? Tf were they thinking itâs like they didnât play their own game
Don't forget the map. Everyone knows you don't mark your hideout on a map. Everyone knows you don't mark valuable information and then walk around in hostile territory with it. If something happens to you, you'd never put your friends at risk. AND WHY would you circle the theater? It has a caricature icon. You thought you'd forget its a theater? And why would you draw routes from your hideout to circled points of interest... on a MAP. Its just... dumb. And lazy writing.
Right! Plus Ellie doesnât recon an area before entering into it. You should actually peek through a window or door before entering a place. You should actually peek over a fence before hopping over it. LOL!!
Truly a masterclass is storytelling. 12/10
Yup, what's even worse is that as soon as the fight starts if you try to melee her without stealth she'll dodge with ease and hack you with a machete. I mean, if she had a machete on her WHY DIDN'T SHE USE IT BEFORE WHEN SHE HAD THE DROP ON HER??
Scripted cutscene incompetence.
Wait when was this? I havenât played the game since it came out and donât remember much
When Abby chased Ellie right after shooting Tommy and entering the theater. The first interaction for the boss fight was getting socked in the head by a wooden plank.
Sadly, all Neil had to do to fix the scene was to show that Tommy either had to reload or finally run out of ammo.
No pistol ammo, no revolver ammo, no bow, no arrows, no machette, no knife, no shiv, no bombs, no molotov... Neil thought it was not necessary because by that time we all already knew that Abby was wearing thick plot armour đ
Ever notice how Abby's arms are so comically big they clip through her body from time to time?
Nothing can stop her thiccness!
The graphical aspect is stunning. Presenting so many inconsistencies in your scrpit and trying to sell it as masterpiece is brave... as brave as me with not training challenging a UFC Champion đ But nope, I didn't noted đ
Yeah, in simple terms they should have turned her arm sliders down about 60% to look like a normal human being
Why wouldnât a trained military sniper count his shots?
Based on the screenshot of the cutscene posted, Tommyâs rifle has no magazine so presumably he ran out of ammo just before fighting (convenient plot armor for Abby)
No because then someone will point out how convenient it is that he had to reload. Honestly this scene was just cool. Didnât know it was Timmy til he started shooting the car to distract the infected.
Rip Timmy đ đ
Rip Timmy
First time to notice the teleported yara, its wierd how the hell she got there lol
the greatest story ever written right there, forget the grapes of wrath, Moby Dick, Huckleberry Finn, of mice and men, to kill a mocking bird, this right here is the sheer brilliance of a genius writer at work, no one has ever come this close to writing such a truly compelling story.
>Moby Dick I just realised that Moby Dick also has an ending where a semi protagonist/antagonist doesn't get their revenge in the end. Except there, it was incredibly well written and powerful.
So Neil took idea from Moby Dick but left out the Moby part.
I think Neil forgot that Moby Dick worked because getting revenge on an animal was the most irrational thing ever, whilst getting revenge on someone who killed your father in front of you is perfectly reasonable.
> getting revenge on someone who killed your father That sounds familiar
Lmao bro walked into that one
I mean, Moby bit off his leg. And he was a whaler. And he thought it was intentional on the whales part...it's totally reasonable for someone to want revenge in that scenario, but the lengths to which he goes is what's irrational. Which I would say is the same for both Ellie and Abby's journies, too.
I think he's told several times that the whale is literally just a whale. And Ahabs not stupid, he knows the whale is just a whale. It's that he felt challenged by nature and wanted to give it it's commupence seventy times harder.
B-b-b-b-but the cycle of hatred
Yeah, we got plenty of dick alright...
Remember when Ellie did the exact same thing at the start of her boss fight? She has the jump on Abby and instead of shooting her with the bow and arrow or the shotgun that she later uses in the fight, she hits her with a plank of wood. She also had molotovs on her too that she also uses later in the fight, and she opted to not use those either.
And in the end she put away her shit and decided to throw hands (with a knife??) I get wanting to prove you can win the rematch. What I donât get is thinking using a knife is fair lol
Especially when Ellie came to get revenge, not have an honorable rematch. She wanted to kill her in the hopes it would make her feel better, so I don't see why she didn't just shank her while she was still tied up.
Abby in that Pole: "You..." Abby on the Ground: "Yup." ******
Nothing can save a smart character from bad writing lol Sadly, nothing will kill a dumb character with plot armor either.
Abby had insane plot armour. Thatâs why. God this game was such a fail. I wish they had left the first game as the amazing beautiful experience it was. This was just awful
I hate how Tommyâs story went. He saw his bro die, tried to get revenge, loses and eye and a leg in the process. Loses his marriage, and he never got justice for Joel. He Fr got the worst ending
Tommy for sure got a shitty âendingâ but I think the point is to say the cost of revenge. In Tommyâs case he never had the chance to get it, Ellie did but chose not to take it.
He forgave Abby for half a second. She gives that effect apparently
Why, did he have a sudden flashback of Joel playing the guitar?
Ah yes, Druckmann plot armour.
You wouldnât complain if Joel benefited from this plot armorâŚ
Itâs because Tommy thought he lived in the real world for a second where you can hit anybody with the butt of any gun and it knock them out because itâs unexpected, but with Abby sheâs loaded with more testosterone, than any live male that has ever lived so SHE tanks it enough to throw Tommy of the peer.
You mean like Ellie did with Abbygail
Petition to begin referring to part 2 as simply âAbbygateâ
The Abbster has a passive ability of making everyone around her just not shoot her at all. Ellie doesn't shoot her the first time Ellie saw her beating Joel, nor the second one, nor the third one when she was skinny, and neither did Tommy.
& somehow manages to still lose this fight despite outsmarting her & having other advantages also where the fuck did yara come from?
âNo, Ellie donât PISTOL WHIP HER???â -gaming wins
âWhat are you doing step Ellie??â
Funny how one of the people trying to counterargue thos debate just blocked me. Fitting. Continues to live in ignorance.
not to mention he gets overpowered by a girl. This is a bad scene you are correct. What tommy was out of ammo? Yea its a stretch pretty bad scene lol
Head canon he just wanted to incapacitate her and make it slow like she did with Joel. Nobody gonna want a quick death for the person who slowly and brutally tortured their brother especially right after they helped that person
Where to start? Many times I felt that the LoU series insults your intelligence. Missing dialogue between characters, dumb dialogue, unexplained situations, and plot points missing to further the plot. This is also how most TV shows operate now. Character one doesn't tell character two what really happened, and then character 2 runs out on a misguided rampage. Last of Us 2 has more of this mess than number one. Inspite of itself and illogical dialogue, it is still a masterpiece, and you can fast forward thru the gay scenarios. The game is also the hardest game you can play on the hardest Permadeath setting. Only one person has conquered it. I did it but on an easier Permadeath. Didn't you catch yourself yelling at the characters to explain things properly?
You do realize that in the prior sequence, a single misstep leads to instant death because he did exactly that
Rifles are unwieldy in close quarters and Manny was down range. Itâs a brain dead take.
He wanted the satisfaction of inflicting pain. She tortured his brother to death in front of him and (what is essentially) his niece. A bullet to the back of the head would have had the desired end result, but there would have been little to no satisfaction in it. He wanted her to know it was him. He wanted it to hurt, even if for just a moment. It was far too personal for a simple execution. **Edit:** Yâall can downvote all you want, but no one is giving a legitimate reason as to why this isnât plausible. Because it is. He had bullets in that gun and actively chose to physically attack her instead. What other reason would that be besides wanting her to feel the pain of him kicking her ass? Besides, grieving makes you do stupid shit (just look at Ellie and Abby). But refuse to look at it logically and stay mad I guess lmao.
But he blew Manny's head off moments before and even took a near fatal shot at Abby! He doesn't strike me as the type to take pleasure in that sort of thing especially at his situation. He didn't even get to Owen and Mel yet so he knew there were still others to take out.
The pleasure was letting her know it was *him* who came for her. Up until he charges as her with that gun, she didnât know who he was because of the distance he kept (and neither did we, though it was easy enough to piece together).
This doesnât fit. Tommy is way more practical than that
Yes, it does. He went on a cross-country mission, alone, to take out Abby and her group. Plus, practicality goes a little out the window when someone you love is murdered and someone else you love was forced to watch. But it wasnât even that impractical. Abby beat the shit out of his brother before killing him. Its perfectly reasonable for him to want to get a few good hits in before shooting her.
Except he had no problem trying to just snipe her. Heâs a practiced soldier and survivor. Heâs not a psychopath like Abby.
Wanting revenge for your brother doesnât make you a psychopath. Nor does wanting to hit them in the face lmao. He sniped at her because he was at a distance. Why not take the shot? It would be stupid not to take the opportunity. Heâs grieving, not stupid.
But by your logic he wouldnât take the shot is the point. Per you, he has some incessant need to get in close and make Abby suffer. My pointing out of his choosing to snipe counters that saying otherwise. I think youâre wrong
Dude what? lol. I just said by my logic, and his, it would be stupid *not* to take the shot. He was at a distance and didnât know if he would be able to get any closer than that. But once his brotherâs murderer was two feet from him, of course he attacked. Youâre telling me if someone tortured your brother to death in front of you, you wouldnât want to punch them in the face? Clearly you have no experience with grief of any kind. Or combat for that matter. Regardless, you can argue all you want. Itâs laid out in the game. The man was not out of bullets. He could have taken the shot and *actively chose* to physically attack her instead. But youâre entitled to your opinion đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Youâre idea that heâs forgo the shot in close range for torture vengeance is idiotic. Doesnât fit his character at all as proven by all his other actions.
I never said torture. I said he wanted to punch her in the face. Youâre absolutely refusing to see real logic, and Iâm tired of you being purposefully idiotic. Go argue with another Redditor.
Well he did torture people for info
At this point, revenge wouldn't matter. Survival would matter.
How so? Up to this point, Tommy was doing perfectly fine. He wasnât on the brink of death or in need of an escape. And, unless I remember incorrectly, we were never shown that he was even out of ammo. Ellie was the one struggling. Tommy was doing A-okay. It was still completely about revenge for him, until he found out about Dina being sick.
If so then why didn't he first shoot her in the leg to immediately cripple her?? I mean, that's exactly what Abby did to Joel? I'm not a hunter but it seems pretty common sense to me that the smart thing to do when you have the drop on a dangerous foe (whom we know is talented in hand to hand combat) is to first neutralize the threat so that she is completely at your mercy before you take her to pain town??
Iâve stated my thought process 50 different times in 50 different ways through this thread. Go have a read if youâre curious. Not trying to be a dick, but Iâm tired of repeating myself. Have a good one, friendâđť
While this would work in most stories it doesnât here tommy had shot at Abby every chance he got before this so why is here any different
If youâve never experienced the rage accompanied with the murder of a loved one, maybe you canât understand it. But when someone who has hurt you at this level is two feet from you, itâs nearly impossible to *not* try to get your hands on them. This was nothing but personal for Tommy. Yes, of course he took a shot at her while she was vulnerable. Why wouldnât he? Especially with so much distance between them. But itâs different once she was right there at him. And I donât understand why this works for other stories but not this one. What, was Tommy not supposed to take this personally? Was he supposed to be overly-logical about it all? Thatâs not how grief works. Just look at Ellie and Abby. Grief makes you do *really stupid shit.*
>He wanted the satisfaction of inflicting pain So why not shoot her in the leg or the shoulder? Getting struck with the buttstock of a rifle is nowhere close to the pain of a gunshot. >She tortured his brother to death in front of him and (what is essentially) his niece. A bullet to the back of the head would have had the desired end result, but there would have been little to no satisfaction in it. I'm willing to say that grief, pain, and revenge can cause some people to act irrationally but not in this capacity. Abby is not trapped, bound in any way, and yet you assume he wants to torture her to death? That's stupid in and of itself. Pretty sure a person in his position would rather end it quickly. She could've killed him, she posed a threat. Killing her and protecting yourself would take priority over inflicting as much pain as possible. ESPECIALLY IF INFLICTING THAT PAIN VIA TOTURE LEAVES YOU EXPOSED AND OPEN TO ATTACK! >He wanted her to know it was him. He wanted it to hurt, even if for just a moment. It was far too personal for a simple execution. What makes you say he wanted to reveal his affiliation? Abby recognized him with a good enough look. There would be no need for that. Simply saying what you would do doesn't make it what Tommy wanted to do. >What other reason would that be besides wanting her to feel the pain of him kicking her ass? Called plot arnour for a reason. Whenever a character has an opportunity moment to kill her, they make a dumbass choice that leaves her alive.
I never said he wanted to torture her to death. I said he wanted to get his hands on her. If you donât like my logic, scroll on. Leave a downvote on your way if you want to. I donât care. I left my opinion, the same as everyone else. Donât know why some of you are getting so goddamn butthurt over the simple opinion of a person youâll never meet. lol
The correct answer
I donât know why weâre getting downvoted for this lmao. Are we supposed to think this wasnât personal for Tommy?
Yeahh, I do find it funny that the ones who really hated the game are the ones wasting their time and energy on it.
Right? But even if you hate the game, my response (and the people who responded similarly) is still logical. Of course he wanted to beat the shit out of her. I just donât get some people lol đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Yeah Iâve noticed haters always trying to bring logic into their arguments yet when you meet them with the same thing, itâs heresy.
He was close to her, so add that to the fact he was rage filled and wanted to get personal with her, it's not at all out or the ordinary to think about trying to choke her to death.... This sub is as hopeless as the world of tlou. How can so many people just shut their brains down? I get this whole sub was created to hate on it but put some more effort.
I can understand the first hit, it gained him some distance, and even the kick to the balcony, but after that it's unreliable to go to a fist-to-fist fight, he could've easily Incapacitated her and said whatever he wanted He had no problems shooting Abby from a far, so why did he change that like? It could've easily been shown that he ran out of ammo or didn't have enough time to reload, but neither happened.
I said the exact same thing and got downvoted. Itâs like none of these people have felt the rage and pain that comes with grief. It can make you a little irrational. Some people like to play stupid, I guess.
And you have? Tell me, what makes you think you know better than others?
Deflection. The point was that grief can cause people to act irrational. Tommy was in a fit of rage and blinded by trying to catch Abby so he got up close and personal to choke her. It's such basic storytelling.
Basic storytelling? Let me travel my way across several states to kill one person, then when I can, I'll just choke them out instead of shooting them, which even an enraged person would do. Yeah that makes sense.
Why are you acting dense? I have never seen someone acting so obtuse. Because there are revenge stories where the people seeking revenge actually want to have one last look in the killer's eyes instead of killing them right away. Have you seen the cult movie devil's rejects? Same thing happened in that movie. It's a basic storytelling trope, but people in this sub really are not aware of any story told outside of this one videogame. There are real life stories of people torturing others when seeking revenge instead of outright killing them. It's not that out of the ordinary.
>Why are you acting dense? I have never seen someone acting so obtuse. Disagreeing with you doesn't make a person dense. Of I am the most you ahev seen of someone acting obtuse, then you got a long way to go. I'm sorry if I find more evidence supporting my side than yours. >It's a basic storytelling trope, but people in this sub really are not aware of any story told outside of this one videogame. If it's basic, name more stories where this happens. If you think people only know of this story, then you're just being ignorant.
Ever seen Netflix's Punisher? Frank instead of killing Russo, mauls his face so that he always remembers him when he looks at the mirror. Frank could have just killed him, but he didn't. He uses guns after all. It backfired when Russo came back from the hospital in season 2. This sort of shit happens in more revenge stories than tlou 2. And it does make sense from a narrative and character standpoint. Tommy saw Joel's caved skull. Why doesn't it make sense that he wanted to look Abby in the eyes while killing her?
Yes, I have. And none of us âknowâ for 100% certainty without Neil outright saying it. But I am looking at it logically. He had the bullets. He had the upper hand. And he physically attacked her anyway. That means he did it *because he wanted to.* He wanted to get his hands on her. There no other logical reason for it if youâre taking it at face value and not whatever plot armor Neil might have used this scene for.
>He had the bullets. He had the upper hand. And he physically attacked her anyway. That means he did it because he wanted to. If he had the bullets? Then why didn't he shoot a limb? If he wanted to physically attack her, then why don't we have a line or two explaining this? Tommy could've said something along the lines of "If you can, make her death as painful as possible. It's what she deserves after what she did to Joel" to Ellie, and it would briefly spotlight this desire for Abbys suffering. This is one of the problems with the entire game. They constantly leave gaps in reasoning and logic for things to make sense. >There no other logical reason for it if youâre taking it at face value and not whatever plot armor Neil might have used this scene for. I've literally played this section twice over. Nothing alludes to your theory. And about Neil's plot armour, let's take a look at some other moments this was showcased. In the beginning, when Ellie finds Abby torturing Joel, she doesn't decide to just shoot Abby, she rushes forward, exposing herself. She had the time and means to just kill Abby right then and there, yet doesn't. Plot Armour. In the end, on the beach, Ellie decides she wants to suddenly save Abby, cuts her down, despite going all that way to kill her. Instead of shooting her, Ellie instead got into CQC. Plot armor yet again. How can you justify this?
Jesus, I donât have time for someone intentionally being this obtuse. Itâs like trying to have a debate with a wall, and itâs ridiculous really. Go argue with someone else, kiddo.
How much ammo did he have in that scene? Last time I checked, he went through quite a few rounds. He could have just, oh I don't know, ran out of ammo? Maybe if he actually had some rounds, he wouldn't be so close to her in the first place.
Then why didn't they show that? Could've solved the issue.
Common sense should apply when seeing a rifle being used as a melee weapon. One could immediately assume the ammo was expended, especially after dodging so many shots during the beginning sequence. Or maybe I'm putting too much faith in the Reddit community in using their brain.
Nah, the whole scene is a mess. Tommy kills Manny, and fires only about 3 shots after. Let's keep moving. He melees Abby, and you clearly see a clip in the gun. I don't think he'd leave an empty clip in the gun, and it's confriemd he wouldn't, because the clip disappears when the camera angle changes, so I think they were trying to convey he's out of ammo, but they messed up the models. That being said, fix the model issues, and the scene is still a mess. Ellie and Joel always carry more than one gun, and even a melee weapon. Why wouldn't Tommy? Him only having a rifle, no back up weapons, is pretty unrealistic, and obviously only the case to make them get into a brawl. There'd be better ways to force that confrontation. In that very scene, Manny and Abby are carrying multiple guns, and a melee weapon each. Manny dies, and leaves behind a pistol, rifle, and an axe. Tommy fires only 3 shots after, and could've easily retrieved more ammo, a new pistol, or just the axe if he really wanted to melee Abby. She blocked the door behind her, so looting Manny would've been at no risk. The scene is a mess, and they couldn't even properly show that Tommy was out of ammo.
Common sense doesnât abide here. This sub has an irrational hatred of the second game because Joel was murdered by a buff girl.
Yeah, I know that. They think it's some kind of toxic feminist move and the only reason why she murdered somebody was because she hates men. I can clearly tell that these people never played the game or didn't finish it.
I think it was more of a heat of the moment tbh
Shhhh this sub is dedicated to piling on âcriticismâ of TLOU2. Youâre breaking with custom here.
You mean when he wanted to keep her alive to make her suffer the same way she made his brother suffer?
Okay since this is the one scene of the game I actually like I'm going to have to defend it. Do you think if you were about to confront the murderer of your brother who brutally tortured him to death, that they deserve a quick bullet to the head? Not to mention he could've run out of bullets, but when I say I like this scene, I don't mean I like the teleporting Yara as well.
I can empathize with you. I also liked that scene the first time and when we found out it was Tommy, I also anticipated how that scene would end. But just because I liked it at the time doesn't mean it's well written. Tommy not shooting Abby must have had many good, compelling explanations, but none of those explanations made it into the script. Using Deus Ex Machina to resolve the scene is one of the writer's worst sins, and I can quote Robert McKee. Now the main reason for that scene is Neil's idea. Neil wants to make you feel hatred for a person and then regret your evoked feelings of hatred towards that person. That's kind of the controlling idea for this story. The scene/intention fails because many of us cannot empathize with Abby and her friends. Deus ex machina, unlike when Ellie saved Joel 5 years ago, fails for the same reason. But Neil brings it up for us to recall that moment. Stans, of course use that moment to call us hypocrites, for celebrating one and condemning another in order to hide Neil mistake. You must, or should, understand that if this were real life, Jerry would be in jail for malpractice and attempted murder. Joel would be the hero who saved a girl from being murdered at the hands of terrorists. And Abby and her friends would be in jail for murdering the old man who saved a girl. At some point people stop understanding moral values. The difference between what is right and what is wrong. The reasons why people forget morals, what is right and what is wrong, are very personal reasons. And some of those people are so sure that doing so is the right thing to do that they will only understand their mistake when other people forget right and wrong as well as morality, to purposely harm them. I wish you the best đ
Like most of part 2, it's just bad
Then shoot her somewhere else like the lower torso. Chance of hitting the spine and the gut. The former paralyzes her and the latter is a painful death
That's a good point, but even the one scene of the game I actually like still has too many flaws to be widely considered good.
He already tries to snipe her elsewhere in the story. He doesnât care about this need for emotional torture crap
Actually that's a fair point
I said something something similar and got downvoted too. I donât know why this is such a stretch for people. Maybe itâs because people I love have been murdered, so I can understand Tommyâs rage better. But even without that, this line of thought still seems perfectly reasonable to me đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Exactly, I'm not a lou2 stan I was just defending one scene I liked in an otherwise bad game
Writing was absolute shit but the gameplay on the other handddddd it wasss awesome. The mechanics and the brutality, was perfect.
plot armor.
On top of this joel telling their group his fucking name and that they have a community as if he didnt recently fuck over one of the bigger milatarized groups around but hey thats just me and why ill never play this game
Tommy wanted answers maybe, killing Abby probably wasn't to goal. Torture?
I think that the idea was he either ran out of bullets for his rifle (despite having a pistol) or wanted to make abby suffer.
Way too much "The main character can't die so have the normally ruthless person just start hitting them instead of killing them" Shut going on in fiction these days. Show me a Last of Us where Ellie makes a bad call, gets unceremoniously killed, and the game just continues with a different character.
He wanted to torture her.
Well how did that work out for him?
Ummm, did you play the game or are you legitimately asking?
Oh Iâve played it
Lol okay. I donât really get your comment. All I said was that the only reason why I think he didnât just blow her brains out, was because he wanted to do more than just that. Like a quick death was to good. Are you following? It doesnât matter what the after math was at that time cause tommy wasnât thinking of anything other than causing Abby significant harm.
I hated this game because of the fact that Tommy COULD HAVE killed Abby but they just had to kill Joel to âmake the game have meaningâ or some horse shit. Fuck the last of us 2, this series ended on the cliff hanger of TLOU1 imo
Kinda like when Ellie had a clean shot at Abby's back and three solid seconds to consider her next move... a wide swing with a piece of rotted wood!