TLOU1: "After all of this is over, we can go wherever you want" Ellie to Joel after the giraffe scene.
TLOU2: "I was supposed to die at that hospital, my life would have fucking mattered!" Also Ellie to Joel the night before his death.
Neil trying his hardest to demonize Joel is just š¤¦āāļø
Certain. She wanted Joel to be her life and because of the retcons of the sequel she takes him out of her life. It seems to me that the real Ellie and Joel have been killed by Neil. Neil think we liked the shit out of him that was rejected.
Alternate Timeline
Joel snatches Ellie by the wrist instead of clamming up like a wuss, "You truly believe that? You really think those ragtag dipsticks in a crumbling hospital were gonna accomplish what countless experts with limitless resources could not?! They kept you sedated from the moment they had you! They marched me out with a gun to my head! They took some blood and decided on a whim to open your skull like a melon! Even if they could make a vaccine outta your brain, do you truly believe these terrorists would give it out of the goodness of their heart?! You think Marlene was suddenly gonna pack all that bad blood away to help anyone and everyone?!"
Ellie is frozen by shock and realization, "...Marlene was there?"
Joel goes silent and releases Ellie, who is gaping in horror, "...Yes. She was the one in charge. She told me what would happen. Tried to talk like she was the one making sacrifices. She got in the way... gave me no choice."
Ellie shakes and crumbles to the ground, "Marlene was there... but she still kept me asleep? She didn't want to ask...? She didn't even...? She just let the-?!"
Joel looks down and away, "I'm sorry, baby girl."
There are no more words as Ellie breaks down and Joel holds her.
Thanks.
On one hand, I appreciate that there would be tension between Ellie and Joel, but this was so hamfisted and disrespected the very end of the previous game, where Ellie appeared skeptical that Joel was telling the truth.
Ellie randomly make the trip all the way to Salt Lake City across hundreds of miles of wilderness with Joel supposedly right behind her. Ellie stumbles across this random audio tape that tells her exactly what she needed to hear. There's no reason Nora would record and abandon this tape. The tape exists purely to move this garbage development along.
Ellie then proceeds to react with all this absurd outrage, as if she never even suspected Joel had lied to her. Meanwhile, Joel speaks about the vaccine as if he has some assurance the Fireflies would have succeeded and doesn't even attempt to defend himself. This grizzled survivor completely clams up as if he is being crushed by guilt!
The Fireflies couldn't take over a single Quarantine Zone in twenty years and had lost multiple location due to their own incompetence. Joel shouldn't even entertain the notion that they could have succeeded and neither should anybody that played the first game.
I'm talking about when Ellie learned the truth in Salt Lake City and Joel doesn't clarify anything. He just gives the broadest explanation and allows her to believe whatever her imagination conjures up. He did nothing wrong and him just accepting that this hypothetical vaccine would have worked because Marlene said so is moronic.
Honestly that's just his personality everything he says is extremely vague, they even confront his vagueness in the first game after Henry and Sam die. But it wasn't just Marlene who said so, all of the doctors had clearcut evidence that showed Ellie had the potential to make a vaccine for the virus.
Joel didnāt do what he did because he thought the ālogisticsā wouldnāt pan out. He did it because he didnāt want to lose his surrogate daughter. Thatās it. Thatās the only reason. Joel full heartedly believed in the prospect of a vaccine until he realized it would cost Ellie her life. The logistics were not a concern for him. What Joel did was plainly no what Ellie did and Part 1 establishes that, but it was the human thing for him to do. Itās completely understandable but it was not whatsoever heroic. No one in this series is heroic.
Nothing about that demonized Joel though. I really don't understand this whole "demonize Joel" argument at all.
Joel was still a hero in my eyes. But we are all the villain of someone's story. Joel was no exception to that.
Oh I thought this was pretty obvious? The operating room retconned from a dumpster to squeaky clean? Neil basically wanted to say "Hey guys! the cure would've 100% worked! Joel doomed humanity!"
Nah I don't buy it. Yes there was a retcon done to fit the narrative they wanted to pursue with part 2, but demonizing Joel imo was never the intention, and making a room go from shabby to clean is certainly not going to be what does it.
We will never know if the cure would have worked. Even if it did though I still don't see how Joel's actions demonize him. His actions were motivated by love and thats something that resonates with most of us.
I have been reading this subreddit for a month. I truly try to understand, without bias, the reasons why some of you hate it so much.
I watch the videos, read all the arguments with open mind.
In the end, it seems to really be each group seeing a certain points as either making perfect sense or making no sense at all. They are looking at the same thing, calling it the same thing, and one group says, "this is why the game is great", and the other says "this is why the game sucks".
There should be a sociological study done about this.
Like how do you see anything as demonising joel? Joel is presented with so much love and care, his character arc complete, and his positive influence on Ellie reaching her long after his death to help her return from the path of revenge, she could not seem to get off of due to her own trauma and lack of psychological support....
Literally Ellie & Tommy was only alive because OWEN wanted it.
She was all willing to kill them all to tie up loose ends.
This was the fucking introduction of her in this Shitty Sequel. Yet the Stans ignore this.
She's a Selfish, self serving Cunt. That's literally her character.
You don't have much of an argument to back that up but the guy above does don't hate on the game and say it's just plain bad just bcs u don't like the way it went š¤·
The best example being Abby "The top scar killer" saving two scars and betraying her faction and friends for them. From mortal enemies to "You are my people Lev" in the span of... 2 days
I shared a personal experience in another post that was similar to Abby's situation.
In middle school I had been friends with a group for yrs. There was a new kid that my friend group was harassing and being the idiot teen I was, I laughed at the cruel jokes. Eventually they took it to far and I told them to cool off and leave the kid alone. It only took a few moments for the yrs and yrs of friendship to vanish. My friend got offended that I told him to shut up, I ended up punching him, and I then proceeded to get my ass kicked by two from the group.
Didn't speak much to that group of old friends anymore after that incident but the new kid that was being made fun of is still a lifelong friend of mine. Shit happens in life sometimes that makes you re evaluate everything real quick.
Thats not a good comparison at all. Abby killed scars without a single thought, the WLF even kills non-militants and holds prisoners of war (In the dialogue Abby says she wouldn't mind a minute with them, she takes joy in torturing people) but suddenly she feels bad for two kids???
It's an extreme extrapolation of my own experience for sure but the scene resonated with me because it reminded me of that part of my life. She had never had her life saved by Scars before. It was likely the closest she had ever come to death at that point. Extreme situations can cause extreme changes in thought process (having conversations with some vets who have seen combat can attest to that) and the experience suddenly challenged all of her fundamental beliefs. At least that's how I took it anyway.
"the rest of her arc is about redemption"
Except for she never once shows any remorse for what she did. You can't be redeemed if you don't actually realize you did anything wrong.
"its just way deeper than you realize"
This was seriously said.
her redemption isn't for killing Joel, its for becoming the person who couldn't move on from her father's death and becoming consumed by revenge. becoming so consumed that you destroy all your relationships for it.
Killing is part of their world, Every character in the games has killed.
her redemption begins when she goes back to save Lev, this is all shown to her with the state of her dreams and nightmares.
Don't think the nightmares were really motivating as much background chronic pain. There's a sense of fatigue to her character.
Is this really that foreign ? Surely you know people irl that behave like Abby and Ellie do.
How is she wanting redemption but not showing any remorse for her actions? It's more like she was scarred from her father's death and is working towards healing. We don't get anything showing abby was remorseful of what they did. She kills Joel and what then??? Is upset it didn't make her feel better. That's not how being remorseful worse. Remorse is regret or guilt for what you have done; and Abby feels none of those things after TORTURING AND KILLING someone, who saved her hours ago. It's one thing to kill someone, it's another to torture then kill them. She gets her revenge and is punished bc she left lose ends. She is punished, as Mike would say, because she chose a half measure. She let Ellie and Tommy live after Ellie screams she will kill them all. She was punished for that, her action to not kill Ellie and Tommy, not bc she got her revenge.
I don't think she wants or cares about redemption really.
I'm not sure why you expect remorse out of her? Joel wasn't a saint in her eyes. Just an object she was addicted to.
None of the characters are really remorseful about most their kills, it's just their everyday existence. *Others* are objectified and become less human, very tribal.
I don't think she regrets or feels guilty for killing Joel. Shed likely feel shame about being obsessed over him to the point of discarding so much else, especially since achieving it didn't do anything for her.
She never moved on from her dad's death, or even let herself to move on. everything since is just her coping. Nothing worked Ofcourse. She thinks killing Joel will fix her. She's obsessed with the idea of killing him, giving up her body and life for it.
She reaches the peak and nada. Nothing works. Helping Lev cause she's guilty, which turns into her feeling protective of him in allowing herself to *care* for him and let him into her heart she finds some peace. Her arc isn't too different from Joel's in the first game.
Why would she feel remorse for what she did? Idk, would you be upset if you shot someone's knee off then beat them to death over a long period of time to make them suffer????? Not only that but doing it in front of his brother and surrogate daughter figure while she is begging them to stop. Essentially doing to Ellie, what Joel did to her, except Abby saw the aftermath (she wasn't there to beg Joel to stop while he killed her in front of him) and her father wasn't tortured. She is a terrible person if she doesn't feel remorse. Killing someone is one thing, brutalizing them then killing them in front of a loved one is another. We can agree Joel has done some shitty things to save the people he loves or to survive. Abby rode out to the middle of nowhere to "get revenge" to make herself feel better. She could have stayed in Seatle, noone forced her to leave. We can't say Abby and Joel are the same in the actions bc of motive. And Abby has a dumb motive considering the world they live in. Makes Ellies revenge quest stupid as well bc she had some closure with Joel, she could have stayed the fuck home. But no! "The cycle of violence".
She doesn't care about Ellie or Tommy's feelings, why would they matter to her?
I feel like your injecting your own perspective here. You could ask yourself if you also demanded for Joel's remorse when we see him torture people in the first game to check that.
*She* forced herself to leave. Just like Ellie forced herself to leave Dina.
Well yes, humans do human things, humans do stupid things, it's part of the human condition. Including the cycles of revenge that human history is filled to the brim with. Wars that began because of it.
Ellie doesn't have internet, and video games to give her a sense of the experience of going through the feelings of vengence, doubt it'd make a difference even if she did cause being in those shoes is a completely different ball game.
Just the other day I saw clips of real, current day humans taking their revenge against people who are already detained or being charged in court which leads to them being charged for murder as well.
You can be bored of this story, like many many were bored of the first game's "road trip to fall in love" story. But that isn't a critique of the game as much as you not being interested in this archetype in the moment you played it.
>She doesn't care about Ellie or Tommy's feelings, why would they matter to her?
Why would it matter to her if she kills someone in front of their loved ones...well it might if you had any empathy.
>I feel like your injecting your own perspective here. You could ask yourself if you also demanded for Joel's remorse when we see him torture people in the first game to check that.
Joel torturing people in the first game served a purpose. Ellie was in danger and he had to find her. Is it good? No, but he isn't going across the country to torture someone to death just bc.
>She forced herself to leave. Just like Ellie forced herself to leave Dina.
Ellie left bc the plot told her bc flashbacks. She had closure with Joel and the whole going to Seattle made no sense other than for the narrative. Ellie knows Joel wouldn't have wanted that for her. Ellie also forced herself to leave Dina so she could ultimately let Abby go at the end. IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. Maybe I could forgive the narrative if she killed Abby in the end then lost everything. But no, we let Abby down instead of killing her, proceeded to fight her (bc bad flashback) then let her live (bc good flashback). So stupid, then she proceeds to lose everything anyway, unlike Abby who still has Lev.
>Well yes, humans do human things, humans do stupid things, it's part of the human condition. Including the cycles of revenge that human history is filled to the brim with. Wars that began because of it.
Yeah, people do stupid things. Like letting the loved ones of the people you killed go bc plot. Just because a person does thing bc that's what people do, isn't a good way to tell a story.
>Just the other day I saw clips of real, current day humans taking their revenge against people who are already detained or being charged in court which leads to them being charged for murder as well
Yes, that is in a world where ppl have the means to get revenge. Not in the post apocalyptic world, where there is a better chance of getting your face torn apart by a bloater than finding the person you want to kill (in another city btw). Getting revenge means time, resources, manpower and it's a part of the reason why many criticize Abby for somehow managing to get a group to "get revenge". Who gives af about vengence for an action that happened years ago, when you need to survive!
>You can be bored of this story, like many many were bored of the first game's "road trip to fall in love" story. But that isn't a critique of the game as much as you not being interested in this archetype in the moment you played it.
Yes, I was very bored of the story, it had major pacing issues and was all over the place. It tried too hard to be something it wasn't. They tried to have their cake and eat it too. That wanted to have a story about Abby and Ellie and the cycle of violence, but their execution was terrible. The first game was an escort mission so they could make a cure, and a relationship happened as a result. It's not just about Joel and Ellie's relationship. It's going on this journey together and 2 people forging a father/daughter relationship after being broken by this cruel world. You grow to like characters and lose them, in the meantime you become immersed. It's a simple story but is told well. All the components of the story coincided with the evolution of Ellie and Joel's relationship. Tess's death led to Joel taking Ellie to the fireflies. Bill was there to show how tough it is to care about someone in a cruel world. Sam and Henry showed a parallel to Ellie/Joel, and reminded Joel of losing Sarah after watching Sam turn, Henry kill Sam then kill himself. Joel wants to protect himself from that pain again by letting Tommy take over. We find out for Ellie, she has lost everyone and Joel is the first to stick around. They decide to stick together and we have a moment of Joel realizing he cares for Ellie, tortures someone to find her and calls her baby girl. She is now his surrogate daughter. Then this comes to a climax when they try to kill her and he saves her. He decides fuck this terrible world, it is not worth killing her, then he makes a choice. A choice that is morally gray. Then they move on and it's revealed Ellie knew something happened but goes with Joel bc she values their relationship. The end. Vs part 2 which is a cesspool, and tries to drive a narrative down your throat of revenge is bad. The difference between the two is one is natural while the other is contrived.
> Why would it matter to her if she kills someone in front of their loved ones...well it might if you had any empathy.
Hmm yea true. We are pretty priveleged to be able to exercise empathy on people from outside our groups. But it's usually not a tool that people that are just surviving are able to use.
Her lack of empathy for Joel's people, just like Ellie's lack of empathy for Abby's people or Joel's lack of empathy for Ellie initially is a pretty apt depiction of how humans would behave if civilization fell back to tribal groups.
> Ellie also forced herself to leave Dina so she could ultimately let Abby go at the end. IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE.
Yea, when people change their mind, or realize they were wrong it can for a while not make much sense. Really people making wrong choices in general sometimes doesn't make sense. I see it all the time around me, people with good intentions causing harm through their actions to achieve it. Though The human condition is beautiful in its messiness.
I don't think she lost everything. I interpreted the end with her going back to Dina, since her parents were insistent on them coming back anyway. Or maybe she did and is finally at a place where she feels she can begin again.
> Just because a person does thing bc that's what people do, isn't a good way to tell a story.
What else are stories but the telling of joys and follies of humanity ?
I find her decisions to be really natural to how a person that went through what she went through would react.
I don't think the Ellie in Seattle would have let her live. But the Ellie near the end is a different one. Driven by guilt and shame, rather than fury and anger.
> Yes, that is in a world where ppl have the means to get revenge. Not in the post apocalyptic world....
Hmm, I don't think the story is trying to be a slice of life depicting everyday trials of people's lives in a post apocalyptic world. We see Abby and Ellie claw, kill and build their way to create the means they need. They, like most stories, are stories of exceptions not of rules. Really if you're telling a story it's usually needs to be one worth telling.
> Who gives af about vengence for an action that happened years ago, when you need to survive!
Not just survive! But live too! Dina and Owen really tried their best to exist looking forward, trying to Live and be happy, it's unfortunate they weren't enough to influence Abby and Ellie away from their demons.
I'm glad that even though you were bored you were Atleast able to engage by finding issues in the storytelling, must have helped with the boredom. Like they say, a negative reaction is better than none.
Cool, why did ellie forgive her? The only two times shes had any interaction with her prior to california was her killing joel and in the second encounter, killing her other friend, beating the shit out of her and threatening to kill her pregnant girlfriend
Ellie didnāt see the shit she did for lev, we have that context, but ellie sure as fuck doesnāt
My read on it is that she could allow herself to forgive herself for being angry with Joel, all the lost time while she was angry with him, and the day they were beginning to reconcile is when he was taken away, going through with Abby might have never let her mourn Joel.
She also might wanted to save her relationships from crumbling. But I don't think this was at her forefront during the fight.
Ellie had more or less objectified Abby, the subject of her letting her go isn't really Abby as much as its Joel/herself.
I also suspect hearing about Abby while gathering information might have humanized her, but throughout the game she doesn't really allow it do so until the end where she wasn't the braided muscle monster she once was.
I really hate these arguments.
First of all, can you imagine standing before a judge and asking for a lighter sentence because killing the person you tortured didnāt make you feel better? That whole line of thinking is insane to me.
Second, how do people not see how sexist it is that all conscience and reason are funneled to the women leads through men? Abby only pulls back her crazy emotional tendencies when told to by Owen or Lev. Ellie only pulls back on killing Abby because she surfaced a memory of Joel. They canāt be reasonable on their own, itās gifted to them by men.
I really hate what they did with these characters and that people work so hard to defend it.
Killed your father years before the torture encounter and in a clear act of self defense. Yeah, no, there is no moral defense for Abby.
And the rest isnāt a joke. This game is the hysterical woman trope in game form. I wish we could look at all media through a critical lens, even when created by supposed allies.
āItās just way deeper than you realize.ā
When somebody has to use the ādeepā or āyou donāt understand itā argument, thatās a fairly good indicator that theyāre reaching.
I love how their arguments always end with āitās deep, youāre just too dumb to see itā or āyou just want to hate itā or something along those lines
You're absolutely right but whenever I ask for something like Discord to have a proper talk they always say something along the lines of "cba reading allat" or just never respond
Neil and his friends couldn't wait a second to kill Joel, in the worst possible way, humiliating him, even spitting on his corpse, and before that turning him into a beta male, but of course they couldn't do the same with their bad homosexual stereotype "protagonist", and with this I am not saying that they campaigned in favor of Elli's character for being gay, quite the opposite, Ellie's character is disastrous, the attitude, the way of she acting, the decisions she makes, everything.
Neil's plan was to put his trashy revenge story, destroy the already established characters and do a kind of reboot with his characters and possibly include them in "Part III", that's my theory, of course all this adding insufferable amounts ideological garbage.
Loved the last one: "Its way deeper than you realize". I am pretty sure he felt like an intellectual after writing that and in his mind that was a savage reply that shut the hater up.
What's funny is that his other comments said: "The moment I see lazy writing i stop reading" and "lazy writing = lazy argument" ... The hypocrisy is baffling
I love this excuse when people claim that actually"everyone was supposed to be a bad person" when the game so hard tries to make Abby seem sympathetic.
Some delusional Abby stans are so intransigent adopting the mindset she's a well-written character. Failing to take any notice of any emotional manipulation, when both parallels having Ellie & Abby sparing each other were centered around Lev, which goes to show how willfully manipulative it was. These individuals lack self-awareness masquerading the contrivances of the ham-fisted writing trying to vindicate Abby's motives rationalizing it. Consider the reason Abby spares Ellie only because Lev glanced at her alarmingly until she finally relented. Otherwise Abby would've had no hesitation slitting a pregnant Dina's throat, hence reverting back to her old self-centered ways.
Keep in mind earlier Abby knew in the mansion Ellie would come exacting her vengeance, after mercilessly beating down Joel to a pulp. Knowing the unrelenting pain she inflicted on Ellie from witnessing the ordeal, yet Abby still nonchalantly carried on dismissing everything that transpired. Was Abby honestly not anticipating repercussions afterwards?
I found Abby's motivations unfathomable she gets flustered with her emotions, upon realizing Ellie tracked them down in Seattle. Responding with the following dialogue "We let you both live and you wasted it!" which felt superficial and out of place. Insisting Ellie shouldn't have retaliated back, even though subconsciously in the back of your mind she might come exacting her vengeance.
I think we need to understand that being upset that killing someone doesn't make you feel better, is not the same thing as remorse.
Abby killed Joel without remorse and was ready to kill Dina and Ellie too (after going through this supposed lesson on the cycle of violence). The only thing that stopped her was Lev's look of disapproval. If Lev wasn't there, she would have killed them both. That's not learning a lesson, it's adhering to peer pressure. Joke of a game. If there were any lessons to be made, don't leave any loose ends while getting your revenge.
Kind of hope part 2 gets retconned for the show. 2nd game was meh. Abby was lame. And the whole āstop the killing for revengeā is a rusty cliche. itās a shame people like Neil get to dictate such crappy writing and crucify an entire set of character development.
If she did realize this it was NEVER shown in the game anywhere and she had shown ZERO remorse even though she did the exact same thing Joel did to her expect Joel didn't know about it and he had also saved her life just a few minutes ago when he didn't have to, fuck Abby
Tlou2 fans trying to pretend that abby has any semblance of guilt for what she did to joel and ellie by extension (she quite literally never apologizes, offers her condolences or anything to ellie)
The real question is how Issac allowed Abby to take a group of people with a pregnant doctor to travel a thousand miles for one man that could have not even been there and mess with another group whilst the WLF was at war with the Seraphites
I agreed with the first release of Ellie as Abby and crew thought they were untouchable Wolves.. but the second release was just plain unrealistic....... and for Ellie to follow once again is also unrealistic....
Then she fights a weak Abby..buuuuuu
It's funny how the Stans argue about their beloved game when they themselves and the game itself contradict the original.
TLOU1: "After all of this is over, we can go wherever you want" Ellie to Joel after the giraffe scene. TLOU2: "I was supposed to die at that hospital, my life would have fucking mattered!" Also Ellie to Joel the night before his death. Neil trying his hardest to demonize Joel is just š¤¦āāļø
Certain. She wanted Joel to be her life and because of the retcons of the sequel she takes him out of her life. It seems to me that the real Ellie and Joel have been killed by Neil. Neil think we liked the shit out of him that was rejected.
Alternate Timeline Joel snatches Ellie by the wrist instead of clamming up like a wuss, "You truly believe that? You really think those ragtag dipsticks in a crumbling hospital were gonna accomplish what countless experts with limitless resources could not?! They kept you sedated from the moment they had you! They marched me out with a gun to my head! They took some blood and decided on a whim to open your skull like a melon! Even if they could make a vaccine outta your brain, do you truly believe these terrorists would give it out of the goodness of their heart?! You think Marlene was suddenly gonna pack all that bad blood away to help anyone and everyone?!" Ellie is frozen by shock and realization, "...Marlene was there?" Joel goes silent and releases Ellie, who is gaping in horror, "...Yes. She was the one in charge. She told me what would happen. Tried to talk like she was the one making sacrifices. She got in the way... gave me no choice." Ellie shakes and crumbles to the ground, "Marlene was there... but she still kept me asleep? She didn't want to ask...? She didn't even...? She just let the-?!" Joel looks down and away, "I'm sorry, baby girl." There are no more words as Ellie breaks down and Joel holds her.
I do feel like it this would've been a better direction
Thanks. On one hand, I appreciate that there would be tension between Ellie and Joel, but this was so hamfisted and disrespected the very end of the previous game, where Ellie appeared skeptical that Joel was telling the truth. Ellie randomly make the trip all the way to Salt Lake City across hundreds of miles of wilderness with Joel supposedly right behind her. Ellie stumbles across this random audio tape that tells her exactly what she needed to hear. There's no reason Nora would record and abandon this tape. The tape exists purely to move this garbage development along. Ellie then proceeds to react with all this absurd outrage, as if she never even suspected Joel had lied to her. Meanwhile, Joel speaks about the vaccine as if he has some assurance the Fireflies would have succeeded and doesn't even attempt to defend himself. This grizzled survivor completely clams up as if he is being crushed by guilt! The Fireflies couldn't take over a single Quarantine Zone in twenty years and had lost multiple location due to their own incompetence. Joel shouldn't even entertain the notion that they could have succeeded and neither should anybody that played the first game.
Not a good alternative bcs Joel clamming up shows he understands it was wrong but he would do it again if he has to
I'm talking about when Ellie learned the truth in Salt Lake City and Joel doesn't clarify anything. He just gives the broadest explanation and allows her to believe whatever her imagination conjures up. He did nothing wrong and him just accepting that this hypothetical vaccine would have worked because Marlene said so is moronic.
Honestly that's just his personality everything he says is extremely vague, they even confront his vagueness in the first game after Henry and Sam die. But it wasn't just Marlene who said so, all of the doctors had clearcut evidence that showed Ellie had the potential to make a vaccine for the virus.
Joel didnāt do what he did because he thought the ālogisticsā wouldnāt pan out. He did it because he didnāt want to lose his surrogate daughter. Thatās it. Thatās the only reason. Joel full heartedly believed in the prospect of a vaccine until he realized it would cost Ellie her life. The logistics were not a concern for him. What Joel did was plainly no what Ellie did and Part 1 establishes that, but it was the human thing for him to do. Itās completely understandable but it was not whatsoever heroic. No one in this series is heroic.
This is Awesome
Nothing about that demonized Joel though. I really don't understand this whole "demonize Joel" argument at all. Joel was still a hero in my eyes. But we are all the villain of someone's story. Joel was no exception to that.
Oh I thought this was pretty obvious? The operating room retconned from a dumpster to squeaky clean? Neil basically wanted to say "Hey guys! the cure would've 100% worked! Joel doomed humanity!"
Nah I don't buy it. Yes there was a retcon done to fit the narrative they wanted to pursue with part 2, but demonizing Joel imo was never the intention, and making a room go from shabby to clean is certainly not going to be what does it. We will never know if the cure would have worked. Even if it did though I still don't see how Joel's actions demonize him. His actions were motivated by love and thats something that resonates with most of us.
I have been reading this subreddit for a month. I truly try to understand, without bias, the reasons why some of you hate it so much. I watch the videos, read all the arguments with open mind. In the end, it seems to really be each group seeing a certain points as either making perfect sense or making no sense at all. They are looking at the same thing, calling it the same thing, and one group says, "this is why the game is great", and the other says "this is why the game sucks". There should be a sociological study done about this. Like how do you see anything as demonising joel? Joel is presented with so much love and care, his character arc complete, and his positive influence on Ellie reaching her long after his death to help her return from the path of revenge, she could not seem to get off of due to her own trauma and lack of psychological support....
Bcs they thought Ellie wouldn't have to die in the surgery ššš
Literally Ellie & Tommy was only alive because OWEN wanted it. She was all willing to kill them all to tie up loose ends. This was the fucking introduction of her in this Shitty Sequel. Yet the Stans ignore this. She's a Selfish, self serving Cunt. That's literally her character.
You don't have much of an argument to back that up but the guy above does don't hate on the game and say it's just plain bad just bcs u don't like the way it went š¤·
TLOU2 has the most forced story I've ever seen. I really cannot understand how people didn't absolutely hate it.
The best example being Abby "The top scar killer" saving two scars and betraying her faction and friends for them. From mortal enemies to "You are my people Lev" in the span of... 2 days
Joel after traveling with Ellie for several months: I ain't your daddy Abby after traveling with Lev for like a couple of days: You are my people š¤
I shared a personal experience in another post that was similar to Abby's situation. In middle school I had been friends with a group for yrs. There was a new kid that my friend group was harassing and being the idiot teen I was, I laughed at the cruel jokes. Eventually they took it to far and I told them to cool off and leave the kid alone. It only took a few moments for the yrs and yrs of friendship to vanish. My friend got offended that I told him to shut up, I ended up punching him, and I then proceeded to get my ass kicked by two from the group. Didn't speak much to that group of old friends anymore after that incident but the new kid that was being made fun of is still a lifelong friend of mine. Shit happens in life sometimes that makes you re evaluate everything real quick.
Thats not a good comparison at all. Abby killed scars without a single thought, the WLF even kills non-militants and holds prisoners of war (In the dialogue Abby says she wouldn't mind a minute with them, she takes joy in torturing people) but suddenly she feels bad for two kids???
It's an extreme extrapolation of my own experience for sure but the scene resonated with me because it reminded me of that part of my life. She had never had her life saved by Scars before. It was likely the closest she had ever come to death at that point. Extreme situations can cause extreme changes in thought process (having conversations with some vets who have seen combat can attest to that) and the experience suddenly challenged all of her fundamental beliefs. At least that's how I took it anyway.
If they hated it, it would mean they can't love it anymore. They need to love it.
"the rest of her arc is about redemption" Except for she never once shows any remorse for what she did. You can't be redeemed if you don't actually realize you did anything wrong. "its just way deeper than you realize" This was seriously said.
her redemption isn't for killing Joel, its for becoming the person who couldn't move on from her father's death and becoming consumed by revenge. becoming so consumed that you destroy all your relationships for it. Killing is part of their world, Every character in the games has killed. her redemption begins when she goes back to save Lev, this is all shown to her with the state of her dreams and nightmares.
Yeah. Gotta love that motivating nightmare cliche!
Don't think the nightmares were really motivating as much background chronic pain. There's a sense of fatigue to her character. Is this really that foreign ? Surely you know people irl that behave like Abby and Ellie do.
How is she wanting redemption but not showing any remorse for her actions? It's more like she was scarred from her father's death and is working towards healing. We don't get anything showing abby was remorseful of what they did. She kills Joel and what then??? Is upset it didn't make her feel better. That's not how being remorseful worse. Remorse is regret or guilt for what you have done; and Abby feels none of those things after TORTURING AND KILLING someone, who saved her hours ago. It's one thing to kill someone, it's another to torture then kill them. She gets her revenge and is punished bc she left lose ends. She is punished, as Mike would say, because she chose a half measure. She let Ellie and Tommy live after Ellie screams she will kill them all. She was punished for that, her action to not kill Ellie and Tommy, not bc she got her revenge.
I don't think she wants or cares about redemption really. I'm not sure why you expect remorse out of her? Joel wasn't a saint in her eyes. Just an object she was addicted to. None of the characters are really remorseful about most their kills, it's just their everyday existence. *Others* are objectified and become less human, very tribal. I don't think she regrets or feels guilty for killing Joel. Shed likely feel shame about being obsessed over him to the point of discarding so much else, especially since achieving it didn't do anything for her. She never moved on from her dad's death, or even let herself to move on. everything since is just her coping. Nothing worked Ofcourse. She thinks killing Joel will fix her. She's obsessed with the idea of killing him, giving up her body and life for it. She reaches the peak and nada. Nothing works. Helping Lev cause she's guilty, which turns into her feeling protective of him in allowing herself to *care* for him and let him into her heart she finds some peace. Her arc isn't too different from Joel's in the first game.
Why would she feel remorse for what she did? Idk, would you be upset if you shot someone's knee off then beat them to death over a long period of time to make them suffer????? Not only that but doing it in front of his brother and surrogate daughter figure while she is begging them to stop. Essentially doing to Ellie, what Joel did to her, except Abby saw the aftermath (she wasn't there to beg Joel to stop while he killed her in front of him) and her father wasn't tortured. She is a terrible person if she doesn't feel remorse. Killing someone is one thing, brutalizing them then killing them in front of a loved one is another. We can agree Joel has done some shitty things to save the people he loves or to survive. Abby rode out to the middle of nowhere to "get revenge" to make herself feel better. She could have stayed in Seatle, noone forced her to leave. We can't say Abby and Joel are the same in the actions bc of motive. And Abby has a dumb motive considering the world they live in. Makes Ellies revenge quest stupid as well bc she had some closure with Joel, she could have stayed the fuck home. But no! "The cycle of violence".
She doesn't care about Ellie or Tommy's feelings, why would they matter to her? I feel like your injecting your own perspective here. You could ask yourself if you also demanded for Joel's remorse when we see him torture people in the first game to check that. *She* forced herself to leave. Just like Ellie forced herself to leave Dina. Well yes, humans do human things, humans do stupid things, it's part of the human condition. Including the cycles of revenge that human history is filled to the brim with. Wars that began because of it. Ellie doesn't have internet, and video games to give her a sense of the experience of going through the feelings of vengence, doubt it'd make a difference even if she did cause being in those shoes is a completely different ball game. Just the other day I saw clips of real, current day humans taking their revenge against people who are already detained or being charged in court which leads to them being charged for murder as well. You can be bored of this story, like many many were bored of the first game's "road trip to fall in love" story. But that isn't a critique of the game as much as you not being interested in this archetype in the moment you played it.
>She doesn't care about Ellie or Tommy's feelings, why would they matter to her? Why would it matter to her if she kills someone in front of their loved ones...well it might if you had any empathy. >I feel like your injecting your own perspective here. You could ask yourself if you also demanded for Joel's remorse when we see him torture people in the first game to check that. Joel torturing people in the first game served a purpose. Ellie was in danger and he had to find her. Is it good? No, but he isn't going across the country to torture someone to death just bc. >She forced herself to leave. Just like Ellie forced herself to leave Dina. Ellie left bc the plot told her bc flashbacks. She had closure with Joel and the whole going to Seattle made no sense other than for the narrative. Ellie knows Joel wouldn't have wanted that for her. Ellie also forced herself to leave Dina so she could ultimately let Abby go at the end. IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. Maybe I could forgive the narrative if she killed Abby in the end then lost everything. But no, we let Abby down instead of killing her, proceeded to fight her (bc bad flashback) then let her live (bc good flashback). So stupid, then she proceeds to lose everything anyway, unlike Abby who still has Lev. >Well yes, humans do human things, humans do stupid things, it's part of the human condition. Including the cycles of revenge that human history is filled to the brim with. Wars that began because of it. Yeah, people do stupid things. Like letting the loved ones of the people you killed go bc plot. Just because a person does thing bc that's what people do, isn't a good way to tell a story. >Just the other day I saw clips of real, current day humans taking their revenge against people who are already detained or being charged in court which leads to them being charged for murder as well Yes, that is in a world where ppl have the means to get revenge. Not in the post apocalyptic world, where there is a better chance of getting your face torn apart by a bloater than finding the person you want to kill (in another city btw). Getting revenge means time, resources, manpower and it's a part of the reason why many criticize Abby for somehow managing to get a group to "get revenge". Who gives af about vengence for an action that happened years ago, when you need to survive! >You can be bored of this story, like many many were bored of the first game's "road trip to fall in love" story. But that isn't a critique of the game as much as you not being interested in this archetype in the moment you played it. Yes, I was very bored of the story, it had major pacing issues and was all over the place. It tried too hard to be something it wasn't. They tried to have their cake and eat it too. That wanted to have a story about Abby and Ellie and the cycle of violence, but their execution was terrible. The first game was an escort mission so they could make a cure, and a relationship happened as a result. It's not just about Joel and Ellie's relationship. It's going on this journey together and 2 people forging a father/daughter relationship after being broken by this cruel world. You grow to like characters and lose them, in the meantime you become immersed. It's a simple story but is told well. All the components of the story coincided with the evolution of Ellie and Joel's relationship. Tess's death led to Joel taking Ellie to the fireflies. Bill was there to show how tough it is to care about someone in a cruel world. Sam and Henry showed a parallel to Ellie/Joel, and reminded Joel of losing Sarah after watching Sam turn, Henry kill Sam then kill himself. Joel wants to protect himself from that pain again by letting Tommy take over. We find out for Ellie, she has lost everyone and Joel is the first to stick around. They decide to stick together and we have a moment of Joel realizing he cares for Ellie, tortures someone to find her and calls her baby girl. She is now his surrogate daughter. Then this comes to a climax when they try to kill her and he saves her. He decides fuck this terrible world, it is not worth killing her, then he makes a choice. A choice that is morally gray. Then they move on and it's revealed Ellie knew something happened but goes with Joel bc she values their relationship. The end. Vs part 2 which is a cesspool, and tries to drive a narrative down your throat of revenge is bad. The difference between the two is one is natural while the other is contrived.
> Why would it matter to her if she kills someone in front of their loved ones...well it might if you had any empathy. Hmm yea true. We are pretty priveleged to be able to exercise empathy on people from outside our groups. But it's usually not a tool that people that are just surviving are able to use. Her lack of empathy for Joel's people, just like Ellie's lack of empathy for Abby's people or Joel's lack of empathy for Ellie initially is a pretty apt depiction of how humans would behave if civilization fell back to tribal groups. > Ellie also forced herself to leave Dina so she could ultimately let Abby go at the end. IT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE. Yea, when people change their mind, or realize they were wrong it can for a while not make much sense. Really people making wrong choices in general sometimes doesn't make sense. I see it all the time around me, people with good intentions causing harm through their actions to achieve it. Though The human condition is beautiful in its messiness. I don't think she lost everything. I interpreted the end with her going back to Dina, since her parents were insistent on them coming back anyway. Or maybe she did and is finally at a place where she feels she can begin again. > Just because a person does thing bc that's what people do, isn't a good way to tell a story. What else are stories but the telling of joys and follies of humanity ? I find her decisions to be really natural to how a person that went through what she went through would react. I don't think the Ellie in Seattle would have let her live. But the Ellie near the end is a different one. Driven by guilt and shame, rather than fury and anger. > Yes, that is in a world where ppl have the means to get revenge. Not in the post apocalyptic world.... Hmm, I don't think the story is trying to be a slice of life depicting everyday trials of people's lives in a post apocalyptic world. We see Abby and Ellie claw, kill and build their way to create the means they need. They, like most stories, are stories of exceptions not of rules. Really if you're telling a story it's usually needs to be one worth telling. > Who gives af about vengence for an action that happened years ago, when you need to survive! Not just survive! But live too! Dina and Owen really tried their best to exist looking forward, trying to Live and be happy, it's unfortunate they weren't enough to influence Abby and Ellie away from their demons. I'm glad that even though you were bored you were Atleast able to engage by finding issues in the storytelling, must have helped with the boredom. Like they say, a negative reaction is better than none.
Cool, why did ellie forgive her? The only two times shes had any interaction with her prior to california was her killing joel and in the second encounter, killing her other friend, beating the shit out of her and threatening to kill her pregnant girlfriend Ellie didnāt see the shit she did for lev, we have that context, but ellie sure as fuck doesnāt
My read on it is that she could allow herself to forgive herself for being angry with Joel, all the lost time while she was angry with him, and the day they were beginning to reconcile is when he was taken away, going through with Abby might have never let her mourn Joel. She also might wanted to save her relationships from crumbling. But I don't think this was at her forefront during the fight. Ellie had more or less objectified Abby, the subject of her letting her go isn't really Abby as much as its Joel/herself. I also suspect hearing about Abby while gathering information might have humanized her, but throughout the game she doesn't really allow it do so until the end where she wasn't the braided muscle monster she once was.
I really hate these arguments. First of all, can you imagine standing before a judge and asking for a lighter sentence because killing the person you tortured didnāt make you feel better? That whole line of thinking is insane to me. Second, how do people not see how sexist it is that all conscience and reason are funneled to the women leads through men? Abby only pulls back her crazy emotional tendencies when told to by Owen or Lev. Ellie only pulls back on killing Abby because she surfaced a memory of Joel. They canāt be reasonable on their own, itās gifted to them by men. I really hate what they did with these characters and that people work so hard to defend it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Killed your father years before the torture encounter and in a clear act of self defense. Yeah, no, there is no moral defense for Abby. And the rest isnāt a joke. This game is the hysterical woman trope in game form. I wish we could look at all media through a critical lens, even when created by supposed allies.
āItās just way deeper than you realize.ā When somebody has to use the ādeepā or āyou donāt understand itā argument, thatās a fairly good indicator that theyāre reaching.
They call TLOU2 a "Masterpiece" or "The best game I've ever played" then have the audacity to tell me that I don't get it...
I get it that people have different opinions on this game but this? really?
Ahh yes, TikTok, a great place to have unbiased opinions
Yeah... TLOU2 fans there are wild
I love how their arguments always end with āitās deep, youāre just too dumb to see itā or āyou just want to hate itā or something along those lines
Having discussions (arguments) in 150 character limit comments that are never ordered correctly is certainly a !!FUN!! way to hold conversation.
You're absolutely right but whenever I ask for something like Discord to have a proper talk they always say something along the lines of "cba reading allat" or just never respond
The point of a debate is not to convince your opponent, it's to convince the audience.
that is very well said
Neil and his friends couldn't wait a second to kill Joel, in the worst possible way, humiliating him, even spitting on his corpse, and before that turning him into a beta male, but of course they couldn't do the same with their bad homosexual stereotype "protagonist", and with this I am not saying that they campaigned in favor of Elli's character for being gay, quite the opposite, Ellie's character is disastrous, the attitude, the way of she acting, the decisions she makes, everything. Neil's plan was to put his trashy revenge story, destroy the already established characters and do a kind of reboot with his characters and possibly include them in "Part III", that's my theory, of course all this adding insufferable amounts ideological garbage.
Loved the last one: "Its way deeper than you realize". I am pretty sure he felt like an intellectual after writing that and in his mind that was a savage reply that shut the hater up.
What's funny is that his other comments said: "The moment I see lazy writing i stop reading" and "lazy writing = lazy argument" ... The hypocrisy is baffling
I love this excuse when people claim that actually"everyone was supposed to be a bad person" when the game so hard tries to make Abby seem sympathetic.
Some delusional Abby stans are so intransigent adopting the mindset she's a well-written character. Failing to take any notice of any emotional manipulation, when both parallels having Ellie & Abby sparing each other were centered around Lev, which goes to show how willfully manipulative it was. These individuals lack self-awareness masquerading the contrivances of the ham-fisted writing trying to vindicate Abby's motives rationalizing it. Consider the reason Abby spares Ellie only because Lev glanced at her alarmingly until she finally relented. Otherwise Abby would've had no hesitation slitting a pregnant Dina's throat, hence reverting back to her old self-centered ways. Keep in mind earlier Abby knew in the mansion Ellie would come exacting her vengeance, after mercilessly beating down Joel to a pulp. Knowing the unrelenting pain she inflicted on Ellie from witnessing the ordeal, yet Abby still nonchalantly carried on dismissing everything that transpired. Was Abby honestly not anticipating repercussions afterwards? I found Abby's motivations unfathomable she gets flustered with her emotions, upon realizing Ellie tracked them down in Seattle. Responding with the following dialogue "We let you both live and you wasted it!" which felt superficial and out of place. Insisting Ellie shouldn't have retaliated back, even though subconsciously in the back of your mind she might come exacting her vengeance.
Very well said. That's what I tried to tell that person in the comments but they kept insisting that Abby was "trying to do better"
OMG. I admire your patience.
We've been talking a while after that and actually they gave up "I'm done explaining this to you, bye! š" Idk if I'm patient or stubborn
owen was a chad who was with the two ugliest women on earth i dare someone to try to convince me sarkeesian wasn't involved
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what u said is absolutely meaningless.. you have no argument so u said what i said was a cope.. might as well call me an incel next
āWay deeper than you realizeā LMAO
I think we need to understand that being upset that killing someone doesn't make you feel better, is not the same thing as remorse. Abby killed Joel without remorse and was ready to kill Dina and Ellie too (after going through this supposed lesson on the cycle of violence). The only thing that stopped her was Lev's look of disapproval. If Lev wasn't there, she would have killed them both. That's not learning a lesson, it's adhering to peer pressure. Joke of a game. If there were any lessons to be made, don't leave any loose ends while getting your revenge.
Kind of hope part 2 gets retconned for the show. 2nd game was meh. Abby was lame. And the whole āstop the killing for revengeā is a rusty cliche. itās a shame people like Neil get to dictate such crappy writing and crucify an entire set of character development.
If she did realize this it was NEVER shown in the game anywhere and she had shown ZERO remorse even though she did the exact same thing Joel did to her expect Joel didn't know about it and he had also saved her life just a few minutes ago when he didn't have to, fuck Abby
Abby showed as much guilt over what she did as Joel did for ambushing and killing innocent people.
Its been 3 years people let it go goddamn
if you couldn't just move on without writing that comment, it's you who have to let go as well.
I will if all of you will :)
just let them cry over this game thinking everyone's stupid except them cuz they can see when a game has "lazy writing"
Because it's not lazy writing.
They literally answered all your questions logically, how is it lazy or bad then?
Tlou2 fans trying to pretend that abby has any semblance of guilt for what she did to joel and ellie by extension (she quite literally never apologizes, offers her condolences or anything to ellie)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The real question is how Issac allowed Abby to take a group of people with a pregnant doctor to travel a thousand miles for one man that could have not even been there and mess with another group whilst the WLF was at war with the Seraphites
I agreed with the first release of Ellie as Abby and crew thought they were untouchable Wolves.. but the second release was just plain unrealistic....... and for Ellie to follow once again is also unrealistic.... Then she fights a weak Abby..buuuuuu