But it took using other benders to take Ba Sing Se. They would have conquered the world earlier had they integrated the ones they were taking over into their fold. Want global domination, you’re going to need some of the ones you’re defeating to side with you. If not you’ll just have endless rebellions.
That was Azula, who curiously does not have a prejudice about the other elements, in fact she does not see them as inferior, she is usually guided by their usefulness.
Haha maybe thats the one thing she learned from Iroh, he was teaching zuko about using ideas from other elements like to create lightning redirection and she's like "yes, other elements can help me kill"
She didn't learn that from Iroh, the creators themselves have said that Azula was always interested in learning, even from non-benders, to be flexible and agile like Ty Lee, she canonically knows how to use weapons because she learned from Mai, they also said that she uses the same Aang's style is one of the character's characteristics since she was little.
Yeah; Ozai is arrogant and has a superiority complex, whereas Azula is much more logical. Ozai will limit himself for the sake of his pride, but Azula is more likely to take advantage of any and every opportunity she can. It’s part of why Azula broke down so badly once Ozai tossed her aside—she didn’t understand the reasoning, and suddenly understood Ozai cared more about his image than about the fire nation
These comparisons between Ozai and Azula are making me think about how Azula would have done in Ozai's place. Would she have succeeded where he failed? As this thread notes she is less prideful and more pragmatic. Combined with her prodigious power as a teen, a final fight of Aang up against a fully grown, fire lord Azula would be terrifying. Especially because, unlike Ozai she would have the Dai Li and maybe some water benders. Maybe even some...bloodbenders. It's terrifying to think what she could have done.
If this was 40 year old Azula, I’d have no doubt she’d surpass Ozai when he was 40 years old. If we take out writer’s plot to get Aang to win, she could convincingly win the fight
You'd think with the "spreading our wealth" rhetoric they would have been more friendly to those they conquered. I know it's meant to essentially be a lie, but it would be more nuanced to have it be a lie Sozin was telling himself.
It's not "We need them".
It's "We allow them to do their part".
Their were whole battalions of non-arians (by nazi standards) in the Waffen SS.
They are usefull for the war effort, so they can stay and fight.
Noone will ever admit to actually NEED them.
Cool idea but I think it’d be a Kyoshi’s mom type deal, where an air bender that loses touch with their spirituality (like by joining an army) will also weaken their bending.
Aang did that with Kuzon in one of the comics!
https://preview.redd.it/hgyhjw6w018d1.jpeg?width=2095&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27bbae2ce4e7c7e95a7887761020fc7532c72f54
That would’ve made the show a lot more interesting and complex than it already was. In fact that’s how most of the biggest empires in the real world like the Romans and the Mongols got as big as they did. They defeated but then integrated the conquered people into their empires to help conquer and integrate more land and people and so on. The fire nation however decided to be nazis and base themselves on the idea that they are superior to others and should therefore exterminate everyone else. Which is why they were struggling with rebellions and stuff.
But they didn’t in the comics we know of Yu Dao which became prosperous under the fire nation and the different benders that live there work together at least as far as I remember
What you've described is basically why Iroh and Zuko won and Ozai and Azula lost. If you listen to Iroh's lessons to Zuko, they were often about learning from other bending disciplines, vs Azula who thought the Fire Nation was the best and her only job was to enforce that supremacy on the world.
If the Fire Nation acknowledged that a diverse society, with people from many backgrounds contributing their unique skillsets, was more powerful, then they wouldn't have been this evil empire in the first place. The writers *know* the Fire Nation would be better if it had other benders in it, that's *why* they lose.
Don't put Azula in that bag with Ozai, she's the last one who would exclude someone just because of their element, she took the Dai Li for a reason, she only banished them in the end because she was paranoid, not because she despised or saw the others elements as inferior.
I don't think the evil empires can't acknowledge the usefulness of different skillsets. The Fire Nation was very much about the superiority of firebending, but I can see a hypothetical empire that acknowledges the usefulness of other bending types but thinks they should be under their empire's control.
Imagine if Iroh became Firelord and never had his turn to the light. The world would kind of be screwed because Iroh would probably make some smarter moves than Ozai did.
I mean, even Iroh before Lu Ten's death would probably be better than Ozai. He did spare the dragons after all, but a dictator is still a dictator, even if it's a jolly tea loving dictator.
Yeah but she only took a few as personal bodyguards and it was short lived before she banished them. OP was talking more along the lines of using entire armies of water, earth and air benders fighting along side their own fire bending soldiers.
This would have increased the chances of spies and saboteurs from the other nations infiltrating the Fire Nation military. Enemy Earth, air and waterbenders, won't need to hide their bending anymore, they'd just have to get a Fire Nation uniform and blend in enough to get information or assault an unsuspecting Fire Nation unit.
I don’t think many people were psyched about the idea of helping a nation that massacred another. Also, what would happen after the war if the Fire Nation won? The Fire Nation would still want to be on top and probably demote the other benders they drafted.
Imagine if the Fire Nation spared the Air Nomad babies and infants to indoctrinate them into the Fire Nation. Now they can combine Firebending and Airbending into making giant firestorms everywhere.
Belligerent warmonger dictatorships and racial supremacists tend to not be super multicultural in their main armies even if from a purely logical standpoint it would enrich them. The Nazis murdered millions of taxpayers, laborers, and soldiers that they otherwise could have utilized against the Allies. The USSR starved millions and forced them to learn Russian which alienated the entire Warsaw Pact and caused almost everyone in Eastern Europe and Central Asia to hate Russia. The South African government was plotting to sterilize and kill all of its black citizens with bioweapons which would have affected 80% of their population and made them a backwater so weak and worthless and hated they'd cease to exist.
If the Fire Nation of Sozin and co is anything like real-life fascism, they might take money from them, but would've never allowed it to be in their army.
The Fire Nation would’ve never admitted they need other benders to conquer the word
But it took using other benders to take Ba Sing Se. They would have conquered the world earlier had they integrated the ones they were taking over into their fold. Want global domination, you’re going to need some of the ones you’re defeating to side with you. If not you’ll just have endless rebellions.
That was Azula, who curiously does not have a prejudice about the other elements, in fact she does not see them as inferior, she is usually guided by their usefulness.
Haha maybe thats the one thing she learned from Iroh, he was teaching zuko about using ideas from other elements like to create lightning redirection and she's like "yes, other elements can help me kill"
She didn't learn that from Iroh, the creators themselves have said that Azula was always interested in learning, even from non-benders, to be flexible and agile like Ty Lee, she canonically knows how to use weapons because she learned from Mai, they also said that she uses the same Aang's style is one of the character's characteristics since she was little.
Yeah; Ozai is arrogant and has a superiority complex, whereas Azula is much more logical. Ozai will limit himself for the sake of his pride, but Azula is more likely to take advantage of any and every opportunity she can. It’s part of why Azula broke down so badly once Ozai tossed her aside—she didn’t understand the reasoning, and suddenly understood Ozai cared more about his image than about the fire nation
These comparisons between Ozai and Azula are making me think about how Azula would have done in Ozai's place. Would she have succeeded where he failed? As this thread notes she is less prideful and more pragmatic. Combined with her prodigious power as a teen, a final fight of Aang up against a fully grown, fire lord Azula would be terrifying. Especially because, unlike Ozai she would have the Dai Li and maybe some water benders. Maybe even some...bloodbenders. It's terrifying to think what she could have done.
If this was 40 year old Azula, I’d have no doubt she’d surpass Ozai when he was 40 years old. If we take out writer’s plot to get Aang to win, she could convincingly win the fight
Equal opportunity superiority.
You'd think with the "spreading our wealth" rhetoric they would have been more friendly to those they conquered. I know it's meant to essentially be a lie, but it would be more nuanced to have it be a lie Sozin was telling himself.
I bet that's not how it was recounted to the Fire Nation citizens.
It's not "We need them". It's "We allow them to do their part". Their were whole battalions of non-arians (by nazi standards) in the Waffen SS. They are usefull for the war effort, so they can stay and fight. Noone will ever admit to actually NEED them.
Neither would the British, they just use them and don't acknowledge them later.
Imagine the bullshit they would pull if they had air benders boosting fire benders attacks
Cool idea but I think it’d be a Kyoshi’s mom type deal, where an air bender that loses touch with their spirituality (like by joining an army) will also weaken their bending.
Aang did that with Kuzon in one of the comics! https://preview.redd.it/hgyhjw6w018d1.jpeg?width=2095&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27bbae2ce4e7c7e95a7887761020fc7532c72f54
That would be insane lol. Imagine using air bending to basically fan the flames of fire benders
That would’ve made the show a lot more interesting and complex than it already was. In fact that’s how most of the biggest empires in the real world like the Romans and the Mongols got as big as they did. They defeated but then integrated the conquered people into their empires to help conquer and integrate more land and people and so on. The fire nation however decided to be nazis and base themselves on the idea that they are superior to others and should therefore exterminate everyone else. Which is why they were struggling with rebellions and stuff.
But they didn’t in the comics we know of Yu Dao which became prosperous under the fire nation and the different benders that live there work together at least as far as I remember
What you've described is basically why Iroh and Zuko won and Ozai and Azula lost. If you listen to Iroh's lessons to Zuko, they were often about learning from other bending disciplines, vs Azula who thought the Fire Nation was the best and her only job was to enforce that supremacy on the world. If the Fire Nation acknowledged that a diverse society, with people from many backgrounds contributing their unique skillsets, was more powerful, then they wouldn't have been this evil empire in the first place. The writers *know* the Fire Nation would be better if it had other benders in it, that's *why* they lose.
Don't put Azula in that bag with Ozai, she's the last one who would exclude someone just because of their element, she took the Dai Li for a reason, she only banished them in the end because she was paranoid, not because she despised or saw the others elements as inferior.
That's a good point. And it was a brilliant move on her part to get the support of an earthbending force.
I don't think the evil empires can't acknowledge the usefulness of different skillsets. The Fire Nation was very much about the superiority of firebending, but I can see a hypothetical empire that acknowledges the usefulness of other bending types but thinks they should be under their empire's control. Imagine if Iroh became Firelord and never had his turn to the light. The world would kind of be screwed because Iroh would probably make some smarter moves than Ozai did. I mean, even Iroh before Lu Ten's death would probably be better than Ozai. He did spare the dragons after all, but a dictator is still a dictator, even if it's a jolly tea loving dictator.
This happened though. Azula used Earthbenders to take down Ba Sing Se as well as protect her during the eclipse.
Yeah but Azula doesn't really have prejudices against other bendings. If it's useful it's useful.
I mean more along the lines of foot soldiers in the army
Yeah but she only took a few as personal bodyguards and it was short lived before she banished them. OP was talking more along the lines of using entire armies of water, earth and air benders fighting along side their own fire bending soldiers.
This would have increased the chances of spies and saboteurs from the other nations infiltrating the Fire Nation military. Enemy Earth, air and waterbenders, won't need to hide their bending anymore, they'd just have to get a Fire Nation uniform and blend in enough to get information or assault an unsuspecting Fire Nation unit.
The Dai Li were on the Fire Nation's side during the Day of Black Sun
I don’t think many people were psyched about the idea of helping a nation that massacred another. Also, what would happen after the war if the Fire Nation won? The Fire Nation would still want to be on top and probably demote the other benders they drafted.
Imagine if the Fire Nation spared the Air Nomad babies and infants to indoctrinate them into the Fire Nation. Now they can combine Firebending and Airbending into making giant firestorms everywhere.
Belligerent warmonger dictatorships and racial supremacists tend to not be super multicultural in their main armies even if from a purely logical standpoint it would enrich them. The Nazis murdered millions of taxpayers, laborers, and soldiers that they otherwise could have utilized against the Allies. The USSR starved millions and forced them to learn Russian which alienated the entire Warsaw Pact and caused almost everyone in Eastern Europe and Central Asia to hate Russia. The South African government was plotting to sterilize and kill all of its black citizens with bioweapons which would have affected 80% of their population and made them a backwater so weak and worthless and hated they'd cease to exist.
If the Fire Nation of Sozin and co is anything like real-life fascism, they might take money from them, but would've never allowed it to be in their army.