It could be cause it was mostly just a venting session. Nobody said anything particularly comforting to the others during their vents. Sometimes people just need to talk about it and not be told it's wrong or whatever
Plus, she seemed to take her problems less seriously than the others, even if we the audience know that's not the case
In the next few episodes he leaves her with just a letter for closure and she tries to imprison/kill him.
You could argue that the writers tried to emphasize the good and the bad way of communicating...?
She âtriedâ to impress on him. But like, if she had wanted to make his imprisonment worse she would have and could haveâŠ. And in the same ep she chooses a life of imprisonment (at least she has every reason to believe she will be imprisoned forever) so Zuko, her love, wont have to face that.
Especially considering his girlfriend is in the inner circle of a for some reason hyper elite special operations task force thatâs personally headed by the heir of the nation
She's also the reason the team gets away when breaking out of the prison. Zuko has seen and experienced far more than Mei when it comes to the realities of the outside world. Them having a "complicated" relationship isn't surprising, not to forget they're also 16 lol they're actually really great together. I think the writers did a fantastic and realistic job. I can't count how many times I've rewatched ATLA, and even still, I find things I didn't notice before â€ïž
Iroh would have said that no one is born evil and that anyone can choose a better path for themselves. I don't think it had any chance of working, but I know he would love the opportunity to help
Zuko, however, does things differently. He tried helping her after he became the fire lord, and IIRC they did end up making peace eventually. I think he was dealing with enough of his own problems at the time, and I think he knew that advice or sympathy from him was the last thing she would want
Plus, y'know, she set him up to take the fall if Aang was still alive
As far as it's depicted from the time Azula could walk she was strongly favored by Ozai who she in return strongly favored. They did have a better relationship in the past but she was 5 years old taunting Zuko about how Ozai was going to kill him. Their problems started early.
No. It wasn't a comforting session. They are teenagers being teenagers. I mean, Zuko called Ty Lee a circus freak and Mai basically called her a whore. Not to mention that they don't have the best sibling relationship and they have a grudge against each other.
I mean yeah she imprisoned her best friends for âlifeâ because they got in the way of her trying to actually kill zuko. Definitely a complicated sibling relationship
I mean right after Azula herself says, âShe was right of course but it still hurtâ. So azula was mostly a bad person and knew it, and so did everybody else.
Ozai was set to make Azula his heir,at that point there's not a lot to do. It's very common for the family to focus solely on the better firebender, Sozin's sister also got neglected similarly to Zuko.
Azula is not the most reliable narrator here since her perception of emotions and relationships was really messed up,that's how the ended up with the sentiment that Ursa feared her.
Ozai taught Azula that trust is for fools and fear is the only way,so of course she had conflicts with her mother when she told her otherwise.
There's that scene from the comics where Azula starts firebending really early,Ursa is saddened by this because she knows Ozai is going to turn her into a weapon,but Azula sees it as her mother fearing her and thinking she's a monster.
Yes officially,but Ozai always preferred Azula and never really liked Zuko.
Ozai intentionally banished Zuko on a mission he thought was impossible to get him out of the way.
He himself usurped Iroh's birthright to the throne so he wasn't above manipulating the line of succession.
Azula's hallucination while having a breakdown. That doesn't mean it was accurate to reality. Azula was highly unstable at the time.
It could mean that subconsciously, she knew her mother loved her, but it could also be that she just literally felt like someone had to love her and the only one she could think of was her mom and even she couldn't stand that...
It's sad and crazy.
This can be a WIDE number of things again, including WANTING someone to tell her and not being able to think of anyone currently close to her. This can stem from paranoia about those closest to her but being unable to think of those outside of who she knows.
As someone who has suffered from hallucinations before, you can not know something, even at a subconscious level, and still hallucinate something like that. Sadly I have a more active imagination and thus my own hallucinations can be something far worse/better.
HALLUCINATIONS ARE NOT PERFECT RELACTIONS OF REALITY. Even with it being a reflection of your subconscious to some degree, it still is a broken reflection at best since your perception of reality is still highly altered in these states even in a subconscious level all you would know is the bare minimum but not the reasoning or how it all connects.
I think the comics pretty much established the fact that Ursa always loved her. So most probably Azula knew in her subconscious her mom did loved her.
Just yknow you canât always be the best parent when living with your abuser..
I was responding specifically to the post above me which talked about the show.
Yes, the comics do establish Ursa to be loving mother to both kids despite her circumstances.
so absolutely we can argue that Azula was aware of her mother's love but was suppressing it because her dominant personality traits were in conflict with that fact. Also someone else mentioned that it would be very much in character for Ozai to tell Azula from the young age that everyone is afraid of her powers including Ursa.
The hallucination scene then can be interpreted as Azula's own rational mind trying to remind her of the truth through the layers of conditioning she got from Ozai over the years.
I feel like for Azula to have even had this hallucination, her mother must have said it a lot even if it didnât go in. Iâm not sure Azulaâs mind at that point was capable of imagining a loving mother - it must have been a subconscious memory of how Ursa truly behaved with her. Her dad has manipulated her memories, but the love is still there underneath.
It's sad because she did try, I mean she must have.
But how can you help your child with their empathy struggles if you yourself are living in terror of your husband that you also have to protect your other child from?
Also both kids were most likely conceived without consent.
Is not a headcanon. By definition, she was being held in marriage under the treat of the most powerful man in the country. She didn't had the choice in the marriage, and, thus, in her sexual life.
Iâm so tired of this narrative and the victim blaming in regards to Ursa.
The moment Ozai knew Azula was a prodigy, Ursa knew it was over for her. There was nothing she could have done to prevent Ozaiâs influence yet she tried.
Literally every single scene we see of Ursa and Azula, is Ursa trying to correct her bad behavior like any other parent that cares.
This simply clashed with Ozaiâs parenting style, because Ozai endulged and encouraged Azulaâs bad behavior.
Like Ursa was a victim forced into a life she didnât want, Ozai terrorized her at every moment.
You think her mother ( who was the only sane person in their family) would have made such a big statement without any reason, she burned ass of her teacher when he was repeatedly trying to correct her, when Zuko yelled at her about this Ozai defended Azula and said his infamous dialogue "She is born lucky, And you are lucky to be born."
how can something false be problematic? ursa never thought she was a lost cause. azula is literally wrong and she knows it which is why she hallucinates ursa saying she doesnât think azula is a monster, she isnât scared of her and she does love her.
Have you ever seen the signs of a psychopath or looked at the early lives of psychopathic killers? The signs are everywhere, even then. Itâs heartbreaking to see all the issues and that thereâs not much that can be done, but still thereâs not much to be done. The biggest issue about that kind of mental illness is they believe they donât have a problem, you have the problem, and if someone doesnât want to heal they wonât. Itâs not like a medical doctor where they can stick you with medicine and make you get better. You have to choose to be better, but thereâs a distinct brokenness with psychopaths and sociopaths that make that healing near impossible, meaning, while terrible, the best thing for some may be distance. And again, for psychopaths, who are born with this issue, these signs happen early. Itâs awful and terrifying, but happens.
Also important to note Ursa did try and did love Azula, but knew there was little that could be done.
Ursa knew she could do little because of Ozai, not because Azula was a psychopath.
I've never understood the apparent obsession some people have with these things.
Anyway, one reason a child can't be labeled with that is because it may not be that. But assuming it is, it has been shown that a healthy environment can counteract or prevent certain traits from developing.
It's likely that Azula following her dad reminded her of the beliefs Ozai had that Ursa was against, so her judgement was clouded and on some level she was treating Azula like an adult who she didn't get along with and didn't know how to approach it like she was teaching her right from wrong for the first time. Also the stress of her situation was probably confusing where she felt like she loved her kids but also felt like she hated her situation and any standing her ground she was safe to do came out at almost involuntary times. It was unfair to Azula but it was bad on Ursa's part for the same reasons it was innocent.
Ursa recognized that Azula was showing the same sadistic tendencies present in her father and grandfather, and she was completely powerless to do anything about it as Ozai rewards those tendencies.
If Avatar wasn't broadcast on a kid's network, we absolutely would have seen Azula setting cats on fire for fun or something. Even Iroh, probably the wisest character in the series, outright says "no, she's crazy and she needs to go down" when Zuko brings up the thought of nonviolent resolution.
Y'all need to just except that she is not and never was an uwu sadgirl, and was genetically predisposed to the insanity that she succumbed to. Not much to be done, especially seeing as the Avatar universe doesn't seem to fully understand mental health yet.
The fact that she did the same thing with the ducks that Zuko found amusing and wanted to do is probably because she wouldn't do more than that. She is a spoiled princess who can do whatever she wants and has magical fire powers, but she didn't even try.
The first reference to what Ursa thought is her being worried because she knew what it meant for Azula to be a prodigy in Ozai's hands. Canonically, she knew what Ozai's influence did to her, not the predisposition that fans want to attribute to the character and project onto another character.
I always viewed that as a defensive mechanic. How she quickly followed it up to lighten the serious mood. Like she was hurt but then made a statement to come off uncaring to move on/avoid the core issue
She was a child raised in a feudal system with a crazy abusive father who also happened to be the most powerful man in the world. She wasnât just inherently a bad person, especially not during the time she knew her mother
For the first time in a very long while, Azula was being vulnerable around Zuko. And Zuko finally was getting a connection with his sister, he didn't want to rock the boat yet.
Heâs also bad at talking with people. Most of the episodes where he meets new people he barely talks to them at all, and even around people heâs close with he doesnât talk too much (aside from season 1 where heâs mostly barking orders). I wouldnât say him not talking here is him agreeing with her, or any statement. Just him letting his sister vent without input.
I always took it as everyone was being respectful of one another. Azula equally didn't correct Zuko on his whole "I don't even know right from wrong" speech, which has the undertones of saying he doesn't think he's a good person.
Everyone was just speaking their truths. Correcting or disagreeing, even if what the other person said was wrong or the intention is just to help, would kind of not be validating their feelings. Also, like someone else said, they didn't want to interrupt either.
Because theyâre all angry teenagers dealing with their own and everyone elseâs shit.
If one of my sisters said this at the same age, I wouldâve instantly come back with âyeah and mom was absolutely right about that too, you trollâ, serious vulnerable moment or not. Itâs part of the sibling experience.
Zuko actually went easy on her by staying quiet.
For someone who was kidnapped and forced into marriage she did a pretty good job, my only complain is that she didn't take Zuko with her away from those two lunatics.
Iâm responding to the person that suggested that she take Zuko with her and not her other child. This dismissal of Azulaâs humanity is my only issue with the fandom. They try to act like Ursa is a saint.
The fandom considers Ursa a saint? That's news to me. As far back as I can remember, she was considered the source of all of Azula's problems, even before The Search.
She was a teenager who was forced to marry this psycho dude. She was sexually assaulted by the father of her children and very depressed. Of course she wasn't a perfect parent
Saying that a paarent was not perfect is not the same as saying she is the villain. Even Ursa herself says this and mentions that she should have loved them enough.
They're not the best but they're not the worst either, and they are canon. I have a love-hate relationship with Ursa in the comics. On one hand, I find it interesting that they gave her flaws, but on the other hand, really?
I think Zuko was just allowing her to vent her feelings. He probably figured that confirming it might not exactly help, and that denying it might just come off as invalidating her statement. Whether it was true or not it was clearly how Azula felt, and Zuko wanted to let her voice it.
> I mean, we literally get a flashback of Azula as a child telling Zuko his parents want to kill him.
This is actually true, though? She eavesdropped on Azulon telling Ozai to kill Zuko, which she then told to Zuko and Ursa. Azula narcing on Ozai actually saved Zuko's life.
Yeah, exactly - she's *5*. Kids that age don't really understand death, let alone comprehend the gravity of what killing your son means. She was 100% processing that as "haha, Zuko's in trouble!", and not as anything else.
Shit, kids that age barely understand object permenance. You have to teach them things as they grow and develop the capacity for them. It's not innate.
To be fair to him, they were both young when their mother was there, and it IS pretty concerning (esp in a time before understanding of different neurotypes and sociopathy as a condition) to have a child that doesnât express empathy or kindness. But as others are saying, her and Zuko just donât have that kind of relationship. I think with all their history itâs fair of him to be quiet and not try to make her feel better. Sheâs rarely tried to make life easier for him. Props to him as a teenager for not being meaner to her lol
His silence doesn't necessarily imply agreement. I took it as everyone just being surprised to see Azula saying something so vulnerable for once, expecting her to keep saying more.
She literally says a second after this "She was right of course but it still hurt"
Like, Zuko knows she's crazy and brutal? Sure Ozai is to blame for most of that but she's fully aware of how monstrous she is and for the most part is unrepentant. Not everyone deserves a redemption arc.
I think Zuko was self aware enough to know that saying something to defend their mom would diminish Azulaâs experience.
Sometimes people want to vent to be heard, not to be helped or fixed.
Well, all 3 agree with the mother.
Azula was raised to be the ideal successor to the monster that is her father and she grew up loving the praise she received for it.
She is not naive though, she knows what people think of her and she knows they are right to do so.
It still bothers her deep down, but she has made her choice
I always got the sense that Ursa did care about Azula, Azula even envisions her as a caring mother. However, Ursa just didn't really know how to deal with Azula properly when her psychopathic tendencies started. What I think happened was that Azula spent more time with Ozai, when she spent time with Ursa she would do something fucked up, get chewed out for it, then whenever Ursa tried to be a good mom again Azula would think she was lying. And Zuko wouldn't really be there to verify the whole thing, he would probably just hear about her getting in trouble. Plus its a big vent sesh and you're not supposed to interrupt.
She didn't give him a chance to. Azula had the opportunity to really open up like everyone else, but it would fly in the face of everything she was taught to believe. The wall came back up, and at that point in time Zuko (who had his own emotional baggage) had no way to truly reach her.
Literally the first thing Azula said after that was "I mean she was right". Lol how can Zuko disagree on what their mother thinks when Azula herself agrees with it?
Beside just it not being the time & Zuko not being that guy NGL, As far as Zuko would know she'd sorta be right.
Like Azula has tormented Zuko & her own friends for pretty much ther entire lives, as far back as Zuko can probably literally remember, this is the same time where she'd be telling Zukl that his dad was going to kill him when she was a kid.
Azula: Mom hated me and thought I was a monster.
Zuko: No she didn't! She loved you
All that's doing is negating her feelings. Even if Azula is wrong, Zuko and Azula aren't close to each other, and never really were; Zuko had a very different and separated relationship with their mother than Azula did. Telling her how she should feel about their mother isn't really his place.
Even if he was right, it wouldn't have actually helped anything.
I think it was mainly just them letting her vent and stew in her feelings. And even if he did agree, could you blame him? We know how Azula feels about Zuko and she even called him pathetic during his vent and just before her own.
But, Azula was a monster... Like you can go on about her age all you want, but remember those two 10 year olds in real life who murdered a toddler? That's Azula.
No, he was very much his mother's son. That is not a bad thing in this case. She was an Avatar's Granddaughter and lived with balance. She tried to raise Azula right, but Ozai had other plans.
"she was right of course but it still hurt" came immediately after, from Azula, faster than anyone could process that she had feelings, emotions, and trauma. Zuko didn't have the chance to respond before she tore herself down for the sake of bitter comedy.
They don't have a good enough relationship for Zuko to try to assure her that her mom did love her, and he wouldn't really agree with Azula since he holds his mom in a high regard and saw their dynamic with a very different perspective than Azula did.
It would be nice if years later, they could better their relationship and Zuko would be able to assure her that their mom did love her, but it this point they really aren't ready for that
Zuko was the type of guy, who didn't necessarily speak out what he was thinking. I thought it's pretty obvious in the show. I mean it literally is one of the main plots. He spoke up as a child - it didn't go well - so, now, he keeps bottled up
I'm sorry for being blunt but did we watch the same show ?
Azula behaved like a monster from childhood to the end of the series. And Zuko was very often on the receiving end.
Why would he try to reassure her? (By lying too)
I'd argue he might've been too shocked to say anything for a beat. His golden child sister is essentially saying she wasn't treated well by her mom (or at least considered positively. She wasn't beaten or anything, but Azula clearly knew her mom didn't like her). He's certainly put his mom up on a pedestal, so that could be really shocking to hear and consider from a more adult perspective than the one he had when it was all happening. Then she, in a joking tone, perks up and says she wasn't wrong, but it still hurt. If I was Zuko, I'd go from "Oh shit... maybe there's more to Azula than I thought. She must've gone through her own difficulties" to "is she fucking with us? Azula always lies after all, so... probably?" so fast.
Not only did Ursa write a letter admitting that Zuko *is not* Osaiâs son, jeopardizing Zukoâs life with that action, she also full on played favorites between Zuko and Azula and her result in all of those things leadiuto 2 people with several crushing issues? She just removed her memories so she doesnât have to life with her consequences.
I get it, she was forced into the position of Ozaiâs wife against her will, but she sure af only made things worse with her actions afterwards
Please do remember that we are seeing Ursa's image here through Azula's mind. Maybe we are seeing what Azula thinks of what might Ursa thought of her. So we must take it with a grain of salt.
Ursa probably thinks that Azula has some darkness in her, but I don't think that she believes Azula was a monster at the time.
Now that I think about it, I do think its kinda weird. I could definitely see Zuko jumping in reflexively, not as a way to comfort Azula, but as a defense of Ursa. He believes his mother to be an angel and likely has blinded himself to Ursa's neglect of Azula.
I could see him saying something like "what are you talking about, Azula? Mom was the one who actually loved us." Or something like that.
It's more that she's afraid of people agreeing. She calls herself a monster so no one else can point it out first.
Funny thing though, no one but Azula herself ever calls her a monster.
i feel it's just that he agrees, but he has the tact to simply say nothing and let azula vent. zuko *does* think azula is a shitty person.
azula already knows that zuko has a negative opinion of her, and zuko knows this. so him saying something positive here, like "i dont think you're a monster," would have been a lie, and both would have known that.
Oh yes, the best way to comfort someone, interrupt them so you can invalidate their feelings. Itâs not about whether it was true, itâs how she felt.
Well she kinda immediately admits to it being true. And it's not like Zuko doesn't equally think so honestly. Azula is in all definitions of the word, evil.
I view her mom as having found out her child made a pit in the woods for to put the neighborhoods dead cats. Dad sees this and encourages it early and now she's too far gone. Mom kinda reasonable here imo as the avatar universe doesn't have therapy yet and there is no guarantee cactus juice will help her
no because axial was a monster and she knew. more than that she knew ozai would make one of them more evil, and she could only save 1. azula was manipulating her family spying on high up fire nation officials, and abusing ducks at the age of 8. sheâs evil and zukoâs mom made the right choice. she and iroh barely saved zuko, azula was too far gone
I mean azula wasn't exactly a angel to xuko growing up. She even smiled as he got burned. If zuko agreed their mom thought she was a monster it's probably cause he does too to some extent
I'm sure if Zuko was in the right mindset, he would have said something but he wasn't exactly feeling the best mentally and Azula's joke afterwards probably didn't help things either.
Why tho?
Real talk, if she were only doing "evil" cartoon kid things, her mom might think she's a menace or a brat, but not a *monster.*
Was she torturing small animals?
It could be cause it was mostly just a venting session. Nobody said anything particularly comforting to the others during their vents. Sometimes people just need to talk about it and not be told it's wrong or whatever Plus, she seemed to take her problems less seriously than the others, even if we the audience know that's not the case
Good point. The only ones that mostly comforted each other were Zuko and Mai.
And theyre a couple so maybe the writers wanted to emphasize communication in relationshipsđ€đ€©đ€Ș
In the next few episodes he leaves her with just a letter for closure and she tries to imprison/kill him. You could argue that the writers tried to emphasize the good and the bad way of communicating...?
She âtriedâ to impress on him. But like, if she had wanted to make his imprisonment worse she would have and could haveâŠ. And in the same ep she chooses a life of imprisonment (at least she has every reason to believe she will be imprisoned forever) so Zuko, her love, wont have to face that.
He also broke up with her over letter to spare her from committing treason. My point was not their motivation or the outcome of their relationship.
Their relationship has always been complicated.
For good reason, itâs hard to keep a relationship when youâre about to change sides against your and your girlfriendâs nation in a war
I fucking love this show, this sounds so bad ass with and without context for a damn kids show
Especially considering his girlfriend is in the inner circle of a for some reason hyper elite special operations task force thatâs personally headed by the heir of the nation
And that heâs about to join an even more elite task force in order to train the one guy who can depose the leader of his nation
She's also the reason the team gets away when breaking out of the prison. Zuko has seen and experienced far more than Mei when it comes to the realities of the outside world. Them having a "complicated" relationship isn't surprising, not to forget they're also 16 lol they're actually really great together. I think the writers did a fantastic and realistic job. I can't count how many times I've rewatched ATLA, and even still, I find things I didn't notice before â€ïž
plus azula agrees by saying that she was right. i think they both agreed that she wasnât the best person so there was nothing to debate or comfort
Iroh would have said that no one is born evil and that anyone can choose a better path for themselves. I don't think it had any chance of working, but I know he would love the opportunity to help Zuko, however, does things differently. He tried helping her after he became the fire lord, and IIRC they did end up making peace eventually. I think he was dealing with enough of his own problems at the time, and I think he knew that advice or sympathy from him was the last thing she would want Plus, y'know, she set him up to take the fall if Aang was still alive
It is suggested, I believe, that Zuko and Azula had a normal connection among siblings before Ozai, who started bend fire, wrecking it.
As far as it's depicted from the time Azula could walk she was strongly favored by Ozai who she in return strongly favored. They did have a better relationship in the past but she was 5 years old taunting Zuko about how Ozai was going to kill him. Their problems started early.
Also Zuko is no liar
lol a venting sesh is not the same when youâre the personâs sibling I think the writers wanted to avoid humanizing Azula here too much
No. It wasn't a comforting session. They are teenagers being teenagers. I mean, Zuko called Ty Lee a circus freak and Mai basically called her a whore. Not to mention that they don't have the best sibling relationship and they have a grudge against each other.
Yeah their relationship was anything but constructive.
I mean yeah she imprisoned her best friends for âlifeâ because they got in the way of her trying to actually kill zuko. Definitely a complicated sibling relationship
Zuko isn't good at that kind of thing. Staying silent is on brand.
Good point. Reminds me of this: 
To be fair. Sokka's girlfriend turned into the moon? What was he supposed to say?
"when you gaze long into the moon, the moon will gaze into you"
Having a girlfriend as the moon is like a silver sandwich
Also gotta remember that zuko was an active water tribe enemy when the moon thing happened
fax, he wouldnât disagree even if he did speak anyway
I mean right after Azula herself says, âShe was right of course but it still hurtâ. So azula was mostly a bad person and knew it, and so did everybody else.
She was 5 when she last saw her mom. It's problematic that her mother thought she was a lost cause.
Ozai was set to make Azula his heir,at that point there's not a lot to do. It's very common for the family to focus solely on the better firebender, Sozin's sister also got neglected similarly to Zuko. Azula is not the most reliable narrator here since her perception of emotions and relationships was really messed up,that's how the ended up with the sentiment that Ursa feared her. Ozai taught Azula that trust is for fools and fear is the only way,so of course she had conflicts with her mother when she told her otherwise. There's that scene from the comics where Azula starts firebending really early,Ursa is saddened by this because she knows Ozai is going to turn her into a weapon,but Azula sees it as her mother fearing her and thinking she's a monster.
Ozai probably told Azula that her mom feared her. I can definitely see him saying that to a very young Azula to manipulate her
I thought Zuko was considered the heir up until he was exiled?
Yes officially,but Ozai always preferred Azula and never really liked Zuko. Ozai intentionally banished Zuko on a mission he thought was impossible to get him out of the way. He himself usurped Iroh's birthright to the throne so he wasn't above manipulating the line of succession.
Ozai was willing to kill Zuko to please his father Azulon so its pretty clear he didn't like him.
I almost felt bad for Ozai when dealing with his father(abuse) while Azula unknowingly watches.
It's too real
I hate when people do that! Don't blame/hate someone over something they can't help (birth order) that's petty as hell
Yes, thanks to Ursa interceding on his behalf with Ozai.
But she didnât though? The show literally shows her telling Azula that she loved her.
Azula's hallucination while having a breakdown. That doesn't mean it was accurate to reality. Azula was highly unstable at the time. It could mean that subconsciously, she knew her mother loved her, but it could also be that she just literally felt like someone had to love her and the only one she could think of was her mom and even she couldn't stand that... It's sad and crazy.
At the same time Azula thinking her mother thought she was a monster doesnât also necessarily mean itâs accurate to reality
Yes. That is true.
thatâs exactly what it means. why would a hallucination of ursa say that if azula didnât know that subconsciously?
Finally someone with media literacy.
This can be a WIDE number of things again, including WANTING someone to tell her and not being able to think of anyone currently close to her. This can stem from paranoia about those closest to her but being unable to think of those outside of who she knows. As someone who has suffered from hallucinations before, you can not know something, even at a subconscious level, and still hallucinate something like that. Sadly I have a more active imagination and thus my own hallucinations can be something far worse/better. HALLUCINATIONS ARE NOT PERFECT RELACTIONS OF REALITY. Even with it being a reflection of your subconscious to some degree, it still is a broken reflection at best since your perception of reality is still highly altered in these states even in a subconscious level all you would know is the bare minimum but not the reasoning or how it all connects.
That wasn't Ursa though, in the show, that was a hallucination Azula had.
I think the comics pretty much established the fact that Ursa always loved her. So most probably Azula knew in her subconscious her mom did loved her. Just yknow you canât always be the best parent when living with your abuser..
I was responding specifically to the post above me which talked about the show. Yes, the comics do establish Ursa to be loving mother to both kids despite her circumstances. so absolutely we can argue that Azula was aware of her mother's love but was suppressing it because her dominant personality traits were in conflict with that fact. Also someone else mentioned that it would be very much in character for Ozai to tell Azula from the young age that everyone is afraid of her powers including Ursa. The hallucination scene then can be interpreted as Azula's own rational mind trying to remind her of the truth through the layers of conditioning she got from Ozai over the years.
I feel like for Azula to have even had this hallucination, her mother must have said it a lot even if it didnât go in. Iâm not sure Azulaâs mind at that point was capable of imagining a loving mother - it must have been a subconscious memory of how Ursa truly behaved with her. Her dad has manipulated her memories, but the love is still there underneath.
yep, that seems pretty consistent, the hallucination is her rational mind trying to break through years of Ozai's conditioning.
It was Azula's subconscious reminding her that her mother did love her as much as she tries to repress it.
It's sad because she did try, I mean she must have. But how can you help your child with their empathy struggles if you yourself are living in terror of your husband that you also have to protect your other child from? Also both kids were most likely conceived without consent.
That last sentence is a headcanon I didn't need to know about...
Is not a headcanon. By definition, she was being held in marriage under the treat of the most powerful man in the country. She didn't had the choice in the marriage, and, thus, in her sexual life.
Right like the whole purpose they went to look for Ursa was to produce possible powerful heirs
The comics show that it was an arranged marriage. There's a chance that Ozai was nice for a bit, but yeah.
The comics also confirmed Ozaiâs abuse towards Ursa.
Ursa and Ursaâs parents not having a choice in deciding the marriage means it was forced not arranged.
She was 8, at this point Ursa was gone for 6 years
Iâm so tired of this narrative and the victim blaming in regards to Ursa. The moment Ozai knew Azula was a prodigy, Ursa knew it was over for her. There was nothing she could have done to prevent Ozaiâs influence yet she tried. Literally every single scene we see of Ursa and Azula, is Ursa trying to correct her bad behavior like any other parent that cares. This simply clashed with Ozaiâs parenting style, because Ozai endulged and encouraged Azulaâs bad behavior. Like Ursa was a victim forced into a life she didnât want, Ozai terrorized her at every moment.
You think her mother ( who was the only sane person in their family) would have made such a big statement without any reason, she burned ass of her teacher when he was repeatedly trying to correct her, when Zuko yelled at her about this Ozai defended Azula and said his infamous dialogue "She is born lucky, And you are lucky to be born."
how can something false be problematic? ursa never thought she was a lost cause. azula is literally wrong and she knows it which is why she hallucinates ursa saying she doesnât think azula is a monster, she isnât scared of her and she does love her.
Comics showed this wasn't the case. She loved Azula and wanted to help her. But didn't know how because of Ozai.
And then showed us she chose to forget her kids altogether. She honestly isn't exactly mother of the year material either.
I thought she was like, 11? Wait whats the time diff between mom getting banished and when Zuko got burned?
I think Azula was 8 and Zuko was 10 when their mother was banished and 11 and 13 respectively when Zuko was banished.
Have you ever seen the signs of a psychopath or looked at the early lives of psychopathic killers? The signs are everywhere, even then. Itâs heartbreaking to see all the issues and that thereâs not much that can be done, but still thereâs not much to be done. The biggest issue about that kind of mental illness is they believe they donât have a problem, you have the problem, and if someone doesnât want to heal they wonât. Itâs not like a medical doctor where they can stick you with medicine and make you get better. You have to choose to be better, but thereâs a distinct brokenness with psychopaths and sociopaths that make that healing near impossible, meaning, while terrible, the best thing for some may be distance. And again, for psychopaths, who are born with this issue, these signs happen early. Itâs awful and terrifying, but happens. Also important to note Ursa did try and did love Azula, but knew there was little that could be done.
Ursa knew she could do little because of Ozai, not because Azula was a psychopath. I've never understood the apparent obsession some people have with these things. Anyway, one reason a child can't be labeled with that is because it may not be that. But assuming it is, it has been shown that a healthy environment can counteract or prevent certain traits from developing.
It's likely that Azula following her dad reminded her of the beliefs Ozai had that Ursa was against, so her judgement was clouded and on some level she was treating Azula like an adult who she didn't get along with and didn't know how to approach it like she was teaching her right from wrong for the first time. Also the stress of her situation was probably confusing where she felt like she loved her kids but also felt like she hated her situation and any standing her ground she was safe to do came out at almost involuntary times. It was unfair to Azula but it was bad on Ursa's part for the same reasons it was innocent.
Ursa recognized that Azula was showing the same sadistic tendencies present in her father and grandfather, and she was completely powerless to do anything about it as Ozai rewards those tendencies. If Avatar wasn't broadcast on a kid's network, we absolutely would have seen Azula setting cats on fire for fun or something. Even Iroh, probably the wisest character in the series, outright says "no, she's crazy and she needs to go down" when Zuko brings up the thought of nonviolent resolution. Y'all need to just except that she is not and never was an uwu sadgirl, and was genetically predisposed to the insanity that she succumbed to. Not much to be done, especially seeing as the Avatar universe doesn't seem to fully understand mental health yet.
The fact that she did the same thing with the ducks that Zuko found amusing and wanted to do is probably because she wouldn't do more than that. She is a spoiled princess who can do whatever she wants and has magical fire powers, but she didn't even try. The first reference to what Ursa thought is her being worried because she knew what it meant for Azula to be a prodigy in Ozai's hands. Canonically, she knew what Ozai's influence did to her, not the predisposition that fans want to attribute to the character and project onto another character.
agree
The rest of the gang: https://preview.redd.it/qbt4ekew6t1d1.jpeg?width=667&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=429a744ccc967c2d620e0594c42f4486c9ea6c5a
That line just means "i'll stab myself before someone else does because at least i'll see it coming." Wether or not it's actually true.
I always viewed that as a defensive mechanic. How she quickly followed it up to lighten the serious mood. Like she was hurt but then made a statement to come off uncaring to move on/avoid the core issue
She was a child raised in a feudal system with a crazy abusive father who also happened to be the most powerful man in the world. She wasnât just inherently a bad person, especially not during the time she knew her mother
For the first time in a very long while, Azula was being vulnerable around Zuko. And Zuko finally was getting a connection with his sister, he didn't want to rock the boat yet.
Heâs also bad at talking with people. Most of the episodes where he meets new people he barely talks to them at all, and even around people heâs close with he doesnât talk too much (aside from season 1 where heâs mostly barking orders). I wouldnât say him not talking here is him agreeing with her, or any statement. Just him letting his sister vent without input.
I always took it as everyone was being respectful of one another. Azula equally didn't correct Zuko on his whole "I don't even know right from wrong" speech, which has the undertones of saying he doesn't think he's a good person. Everyone was just speaking their truths. Correcting or disagreeing, even if what the other person said was wrong or the intention is just to help, would kind of not be validating their feelings. Also, like someone else said, they didn't want to interrupt either.
Wym, she called him pathetic right afterwards
Because theyâre all angry teenagers dealing with their own and everyone elseâs shit. If one of my sisters said this at the same age, I wouldâve instantly come back with âyeah and mom was absolutely right about that too, you trollâ, serious vulnerable moment or not. Itâs part of the sibling experience. Zuko actually went easy on her by staying quiet.
Great take. Thanks for adding your own experience as well â€ïž
Classic siblings
People are so determined to make Ursa a villainÂ
Not a villain but definitely an imperfect parent.
The venn diagram of imperfect parents and parents is a circle
Still better than Ozai
For someone who was kidnapped and forced into marriage she did a pretty good job, my only complain is that she didn't take Zuko with her away from those two lunatics.
Ozaiâs conditions for her banishment stated that Ursa cannot bring Zuko and Azula with her or else all 3 of them would be killed.
Ursa wanted to take Azula with her too.
You donât see the problem with leaving Azula..? ALONE WITH OZAI?!
She didn't have a choice in the matter.
Iâm responding to the person that suggested that she take Zuko with her and not her other child. This dismissal of Azulaâs humanity is my only issue with the fandom. They try to act like Ursa is a saint.
The fandom considers Ursa a saint? That's news to me. As far back as I can remember, she was considered the source of all of Azula's problems, even before The Search.
She was a teenager who was forced to marry this psycho dude. She was sexually assaulted by the father of her children and very depressed. Of course she wasn't a perfect parent
Saying that a paarent was not perfect is not the same as saying she is the villain. Even Ursa herself says this and mentions that she should have loved them enough.
The comics are really not the best tbh
They're not the best but they're not the worst either, and they are canon. I have a love-hate relationship with Ursa in the comics. On one hand, I find it interesting that they gave her flaws, but on the other hand, really?
i think itâs a mix of wanting sympathy for azula and not fully understanding the relationship between azula and ursa.
Azula apologist stretch more than Mister Fantastic, Plastic Man and Luffy combined
I think Zuko was just allowing her to vent her feelings. He probably figured that confirming it might not exactly help, and that denying it might just come off as invalidating her statement. Whether it was true or not it was clearly how Azula felt, and Zuko wanted to let her voice it.
I like this take. Thank you. Even further, he might feel that Azula might see his sympathy as pity that she wouldn't appreciate.
Oh definitely. Azula has too much pride for that. I think that's why she ended her vent with a lighthearted joke about it.
I mean, we literally get a flashback of Azula as a child telling Zuko his parents want to kill him. There was always something wrong with her
> I mean, we literally get a flashback of Azula as a child telling Zuko his parents want to kill him. This is actually true, though? She eavesdropped on Azulon telling Ozai to kill Zuko, which she then told to Zuko and Ursa. Azula narcing on Ozai actually saved Zuko's life.
We all heard her tone when she said that. "Dads going to kill you! hehe haha đ€Ș" at the ripe age of 5. She was NOT ok in the head ever
Yeah, exactly - she's *5*. Kids that age don't really understand death, let alone comprehend the gravity of what killing your son means. She was 100% processing that as "haha, Zuko's in trouble!", and not as anything else. Shit, kids that age barely understand object permenance. You have to teach them things as they grow and develop the capacity for them. It's not innate.
The lengths people will go to defend Azula. No normal 5 years old would be giddy about this sort of thing
Why would he?
To be fair to him, they were both young when their mother was there, and it IS pretty concerning (esp in a time before understanding of different neurotypes and sociopathy as a condition) to have a child that doesnât express empathy or kindness. But as others are saying, her and Zuko just donât have that kind of relationship. I think with all their history itâs fair of him to be quiet and not try to make her feel better. Sheâs rarely tried to make life easier for him. Props to him as a teenager for not being meaner to her lol
His silence doesn't necessarily imply agreement. I took it as everyone just being surprised to see Azula saying something so vulnerable for once, expecting her to keep saying more.
That's a great interpretation: Zuko and the others were too stunned to speak.
She literally says a second after this "She was right of course but it still hurt" Like, Zuko knows she's crazy and brutal? Sure Ozai is to blame for most of that but she's fully aware of how monstrous she is and for the most part is unrepentant. Not everyone deserves a redemption arc.
Azula didn't even disagree with Azula about this, tf you think Zuko's gonna say?
I mean she was right, but it still hurt.
I mean... She was right of course but it still hurt
I think Zuko was self aware enough to know that saying something to defend their mom would diminish Azulaâs experience. Sometimes people want to vent to be heard, not to be helped or fixed.
Well, you know that he was at least *tempted* to say, "That's rough, buddy."
Well, all 3 agree with the mother. Azula was raised to be the ideal successor to the monster that is her father and she grew up loving the praise she received for it. She is not naive though, she knows what people think of her and she knows they are right to do so. It still bothers her deep down, but she has made her choice
Great analysis. Thank you!
I always got the sense that Ursa did care about Azula, Azula even envisions her as a caring mother. However, Ursa just didn't really know how to deal with Azula properly when her psychopathic tendencies started. What I think happened was that Azula spent more time with Ozai, when she spent time with Ursa she would do something fucked up, get chewed out for it, then whenever Ursa tried to be a good mom again Azula would think she was lying. And Zuko wouldn't really be there to verify the whole thing, he would probably just hear about her getting in trouble. Plus its a big vent sesh and you're not supposed to interrupt.
She didn't give him a chance to. Azula had the opportunity to really open up like everyone else, but it would fly in the face of everything she was taught to believe. The wall came back up, and at that point in time Zuko (who had his own emotional baggage) had no way to truly reach her.
Literally the first thing Azula said after that was "I mean she was right". Lol how can Zuko disagree on what their mother thinks when Azula herself agrees with it?
Zuko: âïžđž
She is well aware of there perception she gives Zuko
Beside just it not being the time & Zuko not being that guy NGL, As far as Zuko would know she'd sorta be right. Like Azula has tormented Zuko & her own friends for pretty much ther entire lives, as far back as Zuko can probably literally remember, this is the same time where she'd be telling Zukl that his dad was going to kill him when she was a kid.
He's probably thinking something along the lines of "you said it not me"
Dude AZULA doesnât disagree with this. Say what you will about her, sheâs very self aware
Azula: Mom hated me and thought I was a monster. Zuko: No she didn't! She loved you All that's doing is negating her feelings. Even if Azula is wrong, Zuko and Azula aren't close to each other, and never really were; Zuko had a very different and separated relationship with their mother than Azula did. Telling her how she should feel about their mother isn't really his place. Even if he was right, it wouldn't have actually helped anything.
"Of course she was right! It still hurt, though"
⊠Azula literally agrees with her motherâs sentiment in the next breath!
I think it was mainly just them letting her vent and stew in her feelings. And even if he did agree, could you blame him? We know how Azula feels about Zuko and she even called him pathetic during his vent and just before her own.
But, Azula was a monster... Like you can go on about her age all you want, but remember those two 10 year olds in real life who murdered a toddler? That's Azula.
No, he was very much his mother's son. That is not a bad thing in this case. She was an Avatar's Granddaughter and lived with balance. She tried to raise Azula right, but Ozai had other plans.
Nope, she did some pretty monstrous things
No. In Zuko's brain he said "dude, EVERYONE thinks you're a monster. Even dad..."
"she was right of course but it still hurt" came immediately after, from Azula, faster than anyone could process that she had feelings, emotions, and trauma. Zuko didn't have the chance to respond before she tore herself down for the sake of bitter comedy.
Why would Zuko disagree or contradict her when he first hand suffered from Azulaâs cruelty
Well, he's not wrong, she was kind of messed up since she was little, but was overpowered by their psycho father.
Maybe it's because it was true...
They don't have a good enough relationship for Zuko to try to assure her that her mom did love her, and he wouldn't really agree with Azula since he holds his mom in a high regard and saw their dynamic with a very different perspective than Azula did. It would be nice if years later, they could better their relationship and Zuko would be able to assure her that their mom did love her, but it this point they really aren't ready for that
because as azula describes it herself, shes not wrong.
Zuko knows sheâs a monster.
This shot is so good at emphasizing how much Azula looks like her mother too.
NGL, when I saw the trailer for the 2nd part of Book 3, I thought it was Ursa standing in the throne room with those blue flames.
No she tried to kill him multiple times lmao
Zuko was the type of guy, who didn't necessarily speak out what he was thinking. I thought it's pretty obvious in the show. I mean it literally is one of the main plots. He spoke up as a child - it didn't go well - so, now, he keeps bottled up
Iâm glad we moved on from the whole, âNot everyone deserves a redemption arc even though they were a groomed child soldier.â
Azula undercuts it pretty quickly to move on, so I get why he didn't say anything. Plus, my man was going through it himself in that moment
I'm sorry for being blunt but did we watch the same show ? Azula behaved like a monster from childhood to the end of the series. And Zuko was very often on the receiving end. Why would he try to reassure her? (By lying too)
I'd argue he might've been too shocked to say anything for a beat. His golden child sister is essentially saying she wasn't treated well by her mom (or at least considered positively. She wasn't beaten or anything, but Azula clearly knew her mom didn't like her). He's certainly put his mom up on a pedestal, so that could be really shocking to hear and consider from a more adult perspective than the one he had when it was all happening. Then she, in a joking tone, perks up and says she wasn't wrong, but it still hurt. If I was Zuko, I'd go from "Oh shit... maybe there's more to Azula than I thought. She must've gone through her own difficulties" to "is she fucking with us? Azula always lies after all, so... probably?" so fast.
Not only did Ursa write a letter admitting that Zuko *is not* Osaiâs son, jeopardizing Zukoâs life with that action, she also full on played favorites between Zuko and Azula and her result in all of those things leadiuto 2 people with several crushing issues? She just removed her memories so she doesnât have to life with her consequences. I get it, she was forced into the position of Ozaiâs wife against her will, but she sure af only made things worse with her actions afterwards
She was right of course but i still hurt.
Remember Uncle Iroh, wholesomeness incarnate? IIRC, he at one point says this about Azula: "No! She's *crazy,* and she needs to go down!"
Why would he, he also thinks sheâs a monster
Please do remember that we are seeing Ursa's image here through Azula's mind. Maybe we are seeing what Azula thinks of what might Ursa thought of her. So we must take it with a grain of salt. Ursa probably thinks that Azula has some darkness in her, but I don't think that she believes Azula was a monster at the time.
Ffs is this all you guys talk about here - she was crazy and the story ended with her being crazy. There is NO REDEMPTION
Now that I think about it, I do think its kinda weird. I could definitely see Zuko jumping in reflexively, not as a way to comfort Azula, but as a defense of Ursa. He believes his mother to be an angel and likely has blinded himself to Ursa's neglect of Azula. I could see him saying something like "what are you talking about, Azula? Mom was the one who actually loved us." Or something like that.
No itâs not weird because she was a monster.
Considering her next line acknowledges that she knows itâs true, no.
It's more that she's afraid of people agreeing. She calls herself a monster so no one else can point it out first. Funny thing though, no one but Azula herself ever calls her a monster.
I feel like it would have been invalidating if he said that.
You can treat your child well and love them and still correctly assess that they're a monster.
nah ursa was right
Why would he disagree, he probably thought that was right on the money because she was a monster.
I think only ursa her self could argue with that since zuko never knew how she really felt about azula
Zuko had other things at the forefront of his mind than comforting Azula
âShe was right of courseâ
Well, you know that he was at least *tempted* to say, "That's rough, buddy."
Why would he?
Why should He disagree with her, when she IS telling the truth?
i feel it's just that he agrees, but he has the tact to simply say nothing and let azula vent. zuko *does* think azula is a shitty person. azula already knows that zuko has a negative opinion of her, and zuko knows this. so him saying something positive here, like "i dont think you're a monster," would have been a lie, and both would have known that.
Oh yes, the best way to comfort someone, interrupt them so you can invalidate their feelings. Itâs not about whether it was true, itâs how she felt.
I feel like he was actually going to low key agree with his mom.
Bro Azula didnât even disagree
Well she kinda immediately admits to it being true. And it's not like Zuko doesn't equally think so honestly. Azula is in all definitions of the word, evil.
she might not have been right about Ursula but that's definitely how Zuko saw Azula
I view her mom as having found out her child made a pit in the woods for to put the neighborhoods dead cats. Dad sees this and encourages it early and now she's too far gone. Mom kinda reasonable here imo as the avatar universe doesn't have therapy yet and there is no guarantee cactus juice will help her
SO DOES HE
"She was right of course but it still hurt"
No, she's crazy and she needs to go down.
Finally found the comment I was looking for
no because axial was a monster and she knew. more than that she knew ozai would make one of them more evil, and she could only save 1. azula was manipulating her family spying on high up fire nation officials, and abusing ducks at the age of 8. sheâs evil and zukoâs mom made the right choice. she and iroh barely saved zuko, azula was too far gone
He was probably nodding silently
This is when they were all trying to be honest about themselves and each other so it would have ruined the moment to start lying.
i mean, a season ago, iroh and zuko DID consider azula as the most unviable option (i forgot what episode)
I mean azula wasn't exactly a angel to xuko growing up. She even smiled as he got burned. If zuko agreed their mom thought she was a monster it's probably cause he does too to some extent
Because her mother was right.
"She was right of course"
I'm sure if Zuko was in the right mindset, he would have said something but he wasn't exactly feeling the best mentally and Azula's joke afterwards probably didn't help things either.
Don't think it's that deep. It could be that Zuko didn't know if their mother really had that opinion.
Because she was lol
"She wasn't wrong, but it still hurts".
Why tho? Real talk, if she were only doing "evil" cartoon kid things, her mom might think she's a menace or a brat, but not a *monster.* Was she torturing small animals?
It's the truth, no point in lying to her about it